Raid mastery won't be required to get spirit shards anymore! — Guild Wars 2 Forums

Raid mastery won't be required to get spirit shards anymore!

Many asked for it and here it is: you will no longer need to kill at least one boss to activate that track, so if you don't want to Raid, you won't have to anymore. This is a good change for everyone. The Raid mastery will be hidden for those who haven't killed a boss yet. As for why they didn't do this when the Raid was added? Because the tech of hiding a mastery track wasn't available at the time and they didn't want you to master a track without even visiting Raids. Now that the tech exists (with the Griffon also using it) they will expand it to the Raid track. I think news like this should be available on the the forums too.

Side note: there won't be new mastery tracks for the Path of Fire Raids. Also good change in my opinion. So Arenanet DOES listen.

Link: https://www.reddit.com/r/Guildwars2/comments/7a36hy/fractal_mastery_track_doesnt_require_you_to_do/dp73khx/

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Comments

  • Randulf.7614Randulf.7614 Member ✭✭✭✭

    That is good news. I was thinking about this only last night

    What sleep is here? What dreams there are in the unctuous coiling of the snakes mortal shuffling. weapon in my hand. My hand the arcing deathblow at the end of all things. The horror. The horror. I embrace it. . .

  • Astralporing.1957Astralporing.1957 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Good news indeed. Even though personally i don't need that, it's still a much needed change.

    The whole point of a social game is to play with the people you want to play with, not be forced to play with the people you don't.

  • @vicious.5683 said:
    Does anyone else think feels it's wrong that Anet give this kind of information through Reddit and not Official Forums?

    I'm just glad they give it anywhere.

    Valor Zeal [VZ] - Stormbluff Isle

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @vicious.5683 said:
    Does anyone else think feels it's wrong that Anet give this kind of information through Reddit and not Official Forums?

    Which is why I made this post. Someone asked a question on reddit and a developer answered it, perhaps if we could make "better" questions they would answer us on the official forums too.

  • Here's what anet_ianim wrote (link in the top post):

    First thing: with the next raid release, the HoT Raid Mastery Track will be hidden just like the Griffon track. They can be unlocked the same as always: by completing any raid event. We understand that some people don't want to do raids, but want their delicious Spirit Shards. So let's fix that.


    Clarification: why fractal masteries are part of core, but raid masteries are part of HoT

    Fractals are part of Core Tyria (meaning base game, no expansion necessary). That is why the mastery track is separate. It has always been part of Core Tyria, and it always will be. Full stop. Raids are expansion content only. The Raid Mastery Track under HoT will always require owning HoT to utilize. At this point in time, I don't see that changing.

    Developer insight: why PoF won't have raid masteries

    PoF raids will not have a mastery track. We learned very quickly as a company that:

    1) good masteries are hard to design.
    1a) if you create a good mastery, why lock it behind a raid?
    2) it's better to use open world masteries inside of raid content.
    
    Explanation: why raid masteries were locked in the first place

    The Raid mastery track was locked for one simple reason: we wanted players to have to start playing the content before they could farm and max out their masteries. Sure, go level them up in events afterwards, but don't go into the content full prepped without having done it at all.

    The track wasn't hidden like Griffon because that tech didn't exist. It does now, so we're enabling it. It sucks for some people that have it unlocked, but it is what it is.

    "Face the facts. Then act on them. It's ...the only doctrine I have to offer you, & it's harder than you'd think, because I swear humans seem hardwired to do anything but. Face the facts. Don't pray, don't wish, ...FACE THE FACTS. THEN act." — Quellcrist Falconer

  • @vicious.5683 said:
    Does anyone else think feels it's wrong that Anet give this kind of information through Reddit and not Official Forums?

    No. Why would I feel it's wrong for an ANet dev to respond to fan questions wherever they see fit, when they are doing so on their own time. Gaile gets paid to respond in all sorts of media, including these forums.

    "Face the facts. Then act on them. It's ...the only doctrine I have to offer you, & it's harder than you'd think, because I swear humans seem hardwired to do anything but. Face the facts. Don't pray, don't wish, ...FACE THE FACTS. THEN act." — Quellcrist Falconer

  • @Cynn.1659 said:
    Raid sellers just lost a lot of customers.

    Not really. I don't know why people buy their kills, but, speaking for the majority, it is certainly not because of the mastery track. Escort is easy and can be done with five experienced people alive, though it takes some time. Additional only one kill is needed to unlock the mastery.

    @maddoctor.2738 said:
    Many asked for it and here it is: you will no longer need to kill at least one boss to activate that track, so if you don't want to Raid, you won't have to anymore. This is a good change for everyone. The Raid mastery will be hidden for those who haven't killed a boss yet. As for why they didn't do this when the Raid was added? Because the tech of hiding a mastery track wasn't available at the time and they didn't want you to master a track without even visiting Raids. Now that the tech exists (with the Griffon also using it) they will expand it to the Raid track. I think news like this should be available on the the forums too.

    Side note: there won't be new mastery tracks for the Path of Fire Raids. Also good change in my opinion. So Arenanet DOES listen.

    Link: https://www.reddit.com/r/Guildwars2/comments/7a36hy/fractal_mastery_track_doesnt_require_you_to_do/dp73khx/

    Maybe this should have been posted in the GW2 Discussion Forum, because most regularly looking people into this sub-forum already have there mastery-track unlocked. At least that's what I assume.

    Eternal Chrono-Tank identifying as a Ele-main.

  • TexZero.7910TexZero.7910 Member ✭✭✭✭

    If this helps tone down the whining i guess i'll have to bite my tongue on it.

  • Malediktus.9250Malediktus.9250 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Sad day. As if doing escort/trio/cairn isnt easy enough.

  • LOLOLOLOLOL... after all the pain I went through to unlock this track and never have to raid again.... all I had to do was wait a little longer. Priceless. Happy with this. It was a much needed change.

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Malediktus.9250 said:
    Sad day. As if doing escort/trio/cairn isnt easy enough.

    It's not like it will affect the actual raiders in any way so I'm not sure why it makes you sad.

  • Malediktus.9250Malediktus.9250 Member ✭✭✭✭

    I am not selling raids, it is not worth my time. But these raid masteries forced people to at least try raids a tiny bit. Now they can ignore them again and act as if it is the worst thing that was ever added to the game when in fact it is the highest quality piece of content you can find in this game.

  • Asum.4960Asum.4960 Member ✭✭✭

    @Malediktus.9250 said:
    I am not selling raids, it is not worth my time. But these raid masteries forced people to at least try raids a tiny bit. Now they can ignore them again and act as if it is the worst thing that was ever added to the game when in fact it is the highest quality piece of content you can find in this game.

    That's great and all, if you actually have people to raid with, or got into it early enough to get the kill proofs that 99% of PuG's I see on LFG require.
    Plus it's not like Raids aren't still forced for people who want legendary armor (skins), or new stat set Trinkets like Grievers.

    Personally, I would much prefer to just have the line unlocked at least, so I could max out my Masteries, for which I have the points.
    But quite frankly, after looking at LFG for hours over weeks and not finding a single non veteran exclusive group, looking at guild recruitments for training runs, writing them and not hearing back and trying to get the very few people I know ingame of a skill level high enough that I would try Raids with them to give it a shot without success, I have kind of given up on that entire content, which is a shame.

    As a good player without a raid community backing you and lacking kill proofs, you are just stuck in a place where you either can't get into any group without lying, or have to put up with people who can't even do T1 Fractals and don't bother to even read a guide for the Raid encounter before attempting it.

    No amount of "forcing" players like me into content I actually would like to check out regardless (and probably could complete without major issues with some practice), is going to change the, in my experience, rather unwelcoming and intimidating Raid community, preventing me from checking out the content in the first place.

    "As you know, those who you once called friends have become enemies." ~Glint

  • TexZero.7910TexZero.7910 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @maddoctor.2738 said:
    It's not like it will affect the actual raiders in any way so I'm not sure why it makes you sad.

    I wont claim it makes me sad, but it does make me question masteries as a baseline concept. If they are the true horizontal endgame that we're supposed to be shipping then having them return to the old congrats you're maxed system of spirit shards makes sense. Now they kinda just say well, we don't care if you've actually mastered anything or experienced the game have a cookie on us.

    To me this is just a silly fix for a trivial issue, that's what gets me. Instead of just increasing the spirit shards from doing your daily from 3 to 5 or whatever arbitrary number they want.

  • Fallesafe.5932Fallesafe.5932 Member ✭✭✭

    @vicious.5683 said:
    Does anyone else think feels it's wrong that Anet give this kind of information through Reddit and not Official Forums?

    Yea, it's absurd. Gw2 has a handfull of rough, unfinished edges (both in-game and out). And this is one of the worst. It makes Anet seem like a real small-potatoes, Podunk operation.

  • Evolute.6239Evolute.6239 Member ✭✭✭

    Heaven forbid they're like many other devs who use Reddit as a platform when it's one of the largest communities on the web with a good system.

    It's not like they post patch notes there or something.

  • Kheldorn.5123Kheldorn.5123 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Malediktus.9250 said:
    I am not selling raids, it is not worth my time. But these raid masteries forced people to at least try raids a tiny bit. Now they can ignore them again and act as if it is the worst thing that was ever added to the game when in fact it is the highest quality piece of content you can find in this game.

    I'm pretty sure raiding minority will only benefit from not having people "forced" to raid.

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Malediktus.9250 said:
    I am not selling raids, it is not worth my time. But these raid masteries forced people to at least try raids a tiny bit. Now they can ignore them again and act as if it is the worst thing that was ever added to the game when in fact it is the highest quality piece of content you can find in this game.

    I'm curious, if your reason for disliking this, is because the old system "forced" players to at least try the Raids, how do you feel about future Raids not having a mastery track anymore (so nobody will be "forced" to try them anymore)

  • "We learned very quickly as a company that:
    1) good masteries are hard to design.
    1a) if you create a good mastery, why lock it behind a raid?
    2) it's better to use open world masteries inside of raid content.

    WHAT A HYPOCRISY !!!
    "We learned that good mastery are hard to design" - what means "good" for you - for you as a company? For me 90% of all the masteries from HoT are a totally waste of time and effort giving you nothing in return. Exception - gliding. But taking into account the fact that I'm still against gliding in Core Tyria (considering this as having only commercial purposes and not mechanical or game improvements goals) , even this is not a 100% useful mastery from HoT. Anyhow, this is a kind of admitting that you started the mastery episode without knowing what to expect and without a clear image of what you wanted.

    "1a) if you create a good mastery, why lock it behind a raid?" - this is the highest sign of lack of responsibility. This is a rhetoric question. But if the person who should answer is yourself, then no rhetoric is valid. How can you be so innocent (to not use another word) to forget that you designed it this way? And to ask yourself now why you designed it this way? From the form you put the phrase, someone not playing GW2 may think that the players designed the mastery locked behind raid and forced you to accept this. And you accepted this because in the beginning you had no idea what a good mastery is. But now, after more than 2 years of HoT you finally learned what a good mastery is and, defying the tirany of the players you decided to change it. LOL!!!!!

    In my opinion this comes too late. It is now possible to buy PoF without HoT. So, no need to "fix" something after the expiration date.

    All the ANet statement smacks at commercials. Not the players fate drives ANet - they had +2 years of complains regarding this topic.
    To convince us that the players are the main reason for this late fix, ANet should officially apologize for all the frustration caused to all the players forced to follow this bad model.

    BTW - the legendary weapons are also a 2 year old topic. Any "fix" for this issue? Before 2020? With public apologies for the delivery delay?

  • I like using spirit shards to change stats on my gear, so I am very happy to hear I earn spirit shards in HoT without doing raids. :)

    Click on your name up top. Click the little icon with the down arrow for preferences. Click Signature Settings to the right.

  • @Asum.4960 said:

    @Malediktus.9250 said:
    I am not selling raids, it is not worth my time. But these raid masteries forced people to at least try raids a tiny bit. Now they can ignore them again and act as if it is the worst thing that was ever added to the game when in fact it is the highest quality piece of content you can find in this game.

    That's great and all, if you actually have people to raid with, or got into it early enough to get the kill proofs that 99% of PuG's I see on LFG require.
    Plus it's not like Raids aren't still forced for people who want legendary armor (skins), or new stat set Trinkets like Grievers.

    Personally, I would much prefer to just have the line unlocked at least, so I could max out my Masteries, for which I have the points.
    But quite frankly, after looking at LFG for hours over weeks and not finding a single non veteran exclusive group, looking at guild recruitments for training runs, writing them and not hearing back and trying to get the very few people I know ingame of a skill level high enough that I would try Raids with them to give it a shot without success, I have kind of given up on that entire content, which is a shame.

    As a good player without a raid community backing you and lacking kill proofs, you are just stuck in a place where you either can't get into any group without lying, or have to put up with people who can't even do T1 Fractals and don't bother to even read a guide for the Raid encounter before attempting it.

    No amount of "forcing" players like me into content I actually would like to check out regardless (and probably could complete without major issues with some practice), is going to change the, in my experience, rather unwelcoming and intimidating Raid community, preventing me from checking out the content in the first place.

    I am going to assume that you play on NA? Since what you describe is very far from how it is on EU. We have tons of training and unspecified groups both in lfg and here in the forum. I guess NA is different?

    For any EU player, you can always poke me ingame (if I dont reply its me not seing it, so poke again). We do open runs every wed. at 19h server time

  • Malediktus.9250Malediktus.9250 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Malediktus.9250 said:
    I am not selling raids, it is not worth my time. But these raid masteries forced people to at least try raids a tiny bit. Now they can ignore them again and act as if it is the worst thing that was ever added to the game when in fact it is the highest quality piece of content you can find in this game.

    I'm curious, if your reason for disliking this, is because the old system "forced" players to at least try the Raids, how do you feel about future Raids not having a mastery track anymore (so nobody will be "forced" to try them anymore)

    I think it is a negative. Not only is the mastery system getting neglected already (no new tyrria masteries, no new HoT masteries, PoF only had 20 new masteries all related to mounts), I am also drowning in existing mastery points with nothing to spend them on. The whole mastery system is a ruse. It neither takes mastery to unlock all masteries, but it is also insanely easy and fast to unlock all masteries. In essence they could get rid of the mastery system and make the bonus of the mastery lines baseline.

  • @TexZero.7910 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:
    It's not like it will affect the actual raiders in any way so I'm not sure why it makes you sad.

    I wont claim it makes me sad, but it does make me question masteries as a baseline concept. If they are the true horizontal endgame that we're supposed to be shipping then having them return to the old congrats you're maxed system of spirit shards makes sense. Now they kinda just say well, we don't care if you've actually mastered anything or experienced the game have a cookie on us.

    To me this is just a silly fix for a trivial issue, that's what gets me. Instead of just increasing the spirit shards from doing your daily from 3 to 5 or whatever arbitrary number they want.

    You get that the actual amount of shards never has been the issue, right? People already get more shards than they can spend from champ bags, from random loot, from various reward tracks, etc. Lack of shards is, at worst, a temporary issue for a tiny fraction of the community.

    It's always been about the principle of locking a reward, no matter how trivial, behind something that is described, by ANet, as challenging content, intended for a small portion of players.

    The fact that it was locked was an accident of ANet delivering a quick & dirty fix to player complaints that excess XP no longer had any value. ANet literally gave us the smallest possible reward for that: spirit shards.

    So in the end, this works out closer to the idea of masteries as true horizontal progression, by separating out a track that only applies to a limited subset of players.

    "Face the facts. Then act on them. It's ...the only doctrine I have to offer you, & it's harder than you'd think, because I swear humans seem hardwired to do anything but. Face the facts. Don't pray, don't wish, ...FACE THE FACTS. THEN act." — Quellcrist Falconer

  • Kheldorn.5123Kheldorn.5123 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Malediktus.9250 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Malediktus.9250 said:
    I am not selling raids, it is not worth my time. But these raid masteries forced people to at least try raids a tiny bit. Now they can ignore them again and act as if it is the worst thing that was ever added to the game when in fact it is the highest quality piece of content you can find in this game.

    I'm curious, if your reason for disliking this, is because the old system "forced" players to at least try the Raids, how do you feel about future Raids not having a mastery track anymore (so nobody will be "forced" to try them anymore)

    I think it is a negative. Not only is the mastery system getting neglected already (no new tyrria masteries, no new HoT masteries, PoF only had 20 new masteries all related to mounts), I am also drowning in existing mastery points with nothing to spend them on. The whole mastery system is a ruse. It neither takes mastery to unlock all masteries, but it is also insanely easy and fast to unlock all masteries. In essence they could get rid of the mastery system and make the bonus of the mastery lines baseline.

    Mastery system being failed concept is totally different discussion. This whole system was nothing but an artificial timegate for HoT not to feel empty from day one. Currently they can get rid of masteries altogether as they serve no purpose as seperate system and can already be a part of other systems.

    To claim that hiding raid masteries for non raiders is bad, you have to bring a good portion of people who started raiding only because of mastery being part of the raid after getting which they stayed as active full time raiders to this day. I doubt there are such people.

  • xDudisx.5914xDudisx.5914 Member ✭✭✭

    No one should be forced to raid of they don't want to. No need to further argumentation.

  • TexZero.7910TexZero.7910 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Illconceived Was Na.9781 said:

    @TexZero.7910 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:
    It's not like it will affect the actual raiders in any way so I'm not sure why it makes you sad.

    I wont claim it makes me sad, but it does make me question masteries as a baseline concept. If they are the true horizontal endgame that we're supposed to be shipping then having them return to the old congrats you're maxed system of spirit shards makes sense. Now they kinda just say well, we don't care if you've actually mastered anything or experienced the game have a cookie on us.

    To me this is just a silly fix for a trivial issue, that's what gets me. Instead of just increasing the spirit shards from doing your daily from 3 to 5 or whatever arbitrary number they want.

    You get that the actual amount of shards never has been the issue, right? People already get more shards than they can spend from champ bags, from random loot, from various reward tracks, etc. Lack of shards is, at worst, a temporary issue for a tiny fraction of the community.

    It's always been about the principle of locking a reward, no matter how trivial, behind something that is described, by ANet, as challenging content, intended for a small portion of players.

    The fact that it was locked was an accident of ANet delivering a quick & dirty fix to player complaints that excess XP no longer had any value. ANet literally gave us the smallest possible reward for that: spirit shards.

    So in the end, this works out closer to the idea of masteries as true horizontal progression, by separating out a track that only applies to a limited subset of players.

    Clearly the spirit shard acquisition is the root cause of the issue. People are upset that those who did max were getting something they weren't.
    Now they too can have a spirit shard for what again ? They didn't complete all the masteries instead they waited for a "fix". The core problem is they think they should be rewarded for getting 90% instead of 100%. If that's the case i'd like the GWAMM title for doing the same.

    Instead of just increasing the rate of Spirit Shard gain they went the lazy fix route again.

  • @TexZero.7910 said:
    Clearly the spirit shard acquisition is the root cause of the issue. People are upset that those who did max were getting something they weren't.
    Now they too can have a spirit shard for what again ? They didn't complete all the masteries instead they waited for a "fix". The core problem is they think they should be rewarded for getting 90% instead of 100%. If that's the case i'd like the GWAMM title for doing the same.

    Instead of just increasing the rate of Spirit Shard gain they went the lazy fix route again.

    On the contrary, look at what happens in PoF: you max everything without acquiring the Griffon and you get spirit shards for excess XP. Look at what ANet said about how the current situation came about: left to do it over again, they wouldn't make raid skills a mastery (since it only applies to niche content). It's not like getting GWAMM for 29 achievements; it's like not being required to do optional content to earn a reward.

    And again, what's the big deal either way? Shards already drop like snowflakes during a snowstorm, far in excess of anyone's ability to spend them all. As a reward, it's barely better than getting basic halloween tonics.

    "Face the facts. Then act on them. It's ...the only doctrine I have to offer you, & it's harder than you'd think, because I swear humans seem hardwired to do anything but. Face the facts. Don't pray, don't wish, ...FACE THE FACTS. THEN act." — Quellcrist Falconer

  • Kheldorn.5123Kheldorn.5123 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Illconceived Was Na.9781 said:

    @TexZero.7910 said:
    Clearly the spirit shard acquisition is the root cause of the issue. People are upset that those who did max were getting something they weren't.
    Now they too can have a spirit shard for what again ? They didn't complete all the masteries instead they waited for a "fix". The core problem is they think they should be rewarded for getting 90% instead of 100%. If that's the case i'd like the GWAMM title for doing the same.

    Instead of just increasing the rate of Spirit Shard gain they went the lazy fix route again.

    On the contrary, look at what happens in PoF: you max everything without acquiring the Griffon and you get spirit shards for excess XP. Look at what ANet said about how the current situation came about: left to do it over again, they wouldn't make raid skills a mastery (since it only applies to niche content). It's not like getting GWAMM for 29 achievements; it's like not being required to do optional content to earn a reward.

    And again, what's the big deal either way? Shards already drop like snowflakes during a snowstorm, far in excess of anyone's ability to spend them all. As a reward, it's barely better than getting basic halloween tonics.

    Actually WP proved on his alt account that unless you have shards hoarded from old days, they are a problem

  • TexZero.7910TexZero.7910 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Illconceived Was Na.9781 said:

    @TexZero.7910 said:
    Clearly the spirit shard acquisition is the root cause of the issue. People are upset that those who did max were getting something they weren't.
    Now they too can have a spirit shard for what again ? They didn't complete all the masteries instead they waited for a "fix". The core problem is they think they should be rewarded for getting 90% instead of 100%. If that's the case i'd like the GWAMM title for doing the same.

    Instead of just increasing the rate of Spirit Shard gain they went the lazy fix route again.

    On the contrary, look at what happens in PoF: you max everything without acquiring the Griffon and you get spirit shards for excess XP. Look at what ANet said about how the current situation came about: left to do it over again, they wouldn't make raid skills a mastery (since it only applies to niche content). It's not like getting GWAMM for 29 achievements; it's like not being required to do optional content to earn a reward.

    And again, what's the big deal either way? Shards already drop like snowflakes during a snowstorm, far in excess of anyone's ability to spend them all. As a reward, it's barely better than getting basic halloween tonics.

    The big deal is they've walked back on masteries being progression points. They've made the entire process contrarian. Instead of maxing and getting rewarded just like the previous systems we now get rewarded regardless. So i submit again, I'd like my GWAMM participation award too.

  • @Kheldorn.5123 said:

    @Illconceived Was Na.9781 said:

    @TexZero.7910 said:
    Clearly the spirit shard acquisition is the root cause of the issue. People are upset that those who did max were getting something they weren't.
    Now they too can have a spirit shard for what again ? They didn't complete all the masteries instead they waited for a "fix". The core problem is they think they should be rewarded for getting 90% instead of 100%. If that's the case i'd like the GWAMM title for doing the same.

    Instead of just increasing the rate of Spirit Shard gain they went the lazy fix route again.

    On the contrary, look at what happens in PoF: you max everything without acquiring the Griffon and you get spirit shards for excess XP. Look at what ANet said about how the current situation came about: left to do it over again, they wouldn't make raid skills a mastery (since it only applies to niche content). It's not like getting GWAMM for 29 achievements; it's like not being required to do optional content to earn a reward.

    And again, what's the big deal either way? Shards already drop like snowflakes during a snowstorm, far in excess of anyone's ability to spend them all. As a reward, it's barely better than getting basic halloween tonics.

    Actually WP proved on his alt account that unless you have shards hoarded from old days, they are a problem

    Actually, what he showed doesn't affect my point. Of course new accounts will lack enough spirit shards. And of course, anyone in a rush to do raids alone and transform a bunch of gear is going to run into a temporary problem of running short. However, adding shards for non-raiders who max the rest of the masteries doesn't help new players (they haven't maxed masteries) and it provides only modest relief. Eventually, even WP's alt account is going to have too many shards.


    @TexZero.7910 said:
    The big deal is they've walked back on masteries being progression points. They've made the entire process contrarian. Instead of maxing and getting rewarded just like the previous systems we now get rewarded regardless. So i submit again, I'd like my GWAMM participation award too.

    There's nothing to say if someone thinks max masteries and GWAMM are even remotely equivalent in terms of effort or progression. GWAMM is closer to reaching 15k AP, not counting dailies (or perhaps 12k, for those who started after 2012). All that ANet has done is offered the tiniest conceivable reward for XP earned after reaching L80, and offering a fixed cutoff that distinguishes optional content from expected.

    Masteries remain progression points; they just aren't all that more special than reaching L80 used to be.

    "Face the facts. Then act on them. It's ...the only doctrine I have to offer you, & it's harder than you'd think, because I swear humans seem hardwired to do anything but. Face the facts. Don't pray, don't wish, ...FACE THE FACTS. THEN act." — Quellcrist Falconer

  • TexZero.7910TexZero.7910 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Illconceived Was Na.9781 said:
    There's nothing to say if someone thinks max masteries and GWAMM are even remotely equivalent in terms of effort or progression. GWAMM is closer to reaching 15k AP, not counting dailies (or perhaps 12k, for those who started after 2012). All that ANet has done is offered the tiniest conceivable reward for XP earned after reaching L80, and offering a fixed cutoff that distinguishes optional content from expected.

    Masteries remain progression points; they just aren't all that more special than reaching L80 used to be.

    If there's nothing to say and you have a wall of text clearly there's something to be said. If i said to you instead of getting GWAMM at 30 titles you could get it at 20 that would change your entire perception of what an endgame objective is. In very much the same way when you say masteries are your end game progression system that is going to replace conventional leveling that should mean something and shouldn't shift. If the reward for maxing all masteries, not just the visible ones (although this is only a post-facto fix to deal with complaining) is that you get rewarded with spirit shards just like the prior system then any new system that's built off it should do the same.

    Meaning you should only get extra shards upon level up for completely maxing out, not arbitrarily deciding you don't want to. This is the core flaw with the shift to the system. It's contrarian to the entire design of the system as a whole. If people "want their exp to be meaningful" then they should do the content. If people want to fix the problem of not enough spirit shard then anet should fix that in a way that doesnt entirely devalue and contradict the systems they have in place.

  • A long time back I manned up and did a little raiding to get my mastery track unlocked. What I experienced was pretty horrible and, due to a bug, when I got my first LI, the track didn't unlock for me, so I had to do it all over. Regardless of this I stuck with it and eventually killed a couple of the bosses. Then I left raiding and have not returned since, because I simply don't enjoy it.

    I also saw a great many other people forcing themselves into raids. A few of them were like me, with enough familiarity with TS and tactics to get through, but many of them were just average joe players who really didn't measure up to the challenge. They struggled, died and gave up almost immediately, only to cause the whole group to fall apart time and time again. I imagine a good few probably quit the game itself due to those experiences. If creating new raiders was the objective, then forcing everyone to raid came at a very high cost and left a bad taste in the mouths of many, even those who were capable of getting through it at a basic level.

    I am glad to see that this requirement is being lifted. The situation did grave damage to the game mode it was supposed to foster and caused a permanent divide in the community that we now need to work on healing.

  • Torolan.5816Torolan.5816 Member ✭✭✭

    As someone who has more than enough spirit shards, it was never a pressing problem for me. With the rise of non-raid legendary armor, I basically can close the raid chapter happily behind me.

    But I already rambled on the old forum how Anet was really trying hard to bring people into raids and how that may actually harm the whole game, and chonometria already explained why this is a bad idea.

  • Shirlias.8104Shirlias.8104 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Finally \o

  • Sorry for revining a fairly old thread, and I dont want to restart the pro/con discussion...

    Here's what anet_ianim wrote (link in the top post):
    First thing: with the next raid release, the HoT Raid Mastery Track will be hidden just like the Griffon track. They can be unlocked the same as always: by completing any raid event. We understand that some people don't want to do raids, but want their delicious Spirit Shards. So let's fix that.

    Is there any information WHEN this "next raid release" will happen? Could it be together with the upcoming LW4 release?

    Thanks,
    --kay

  • Shiyo.3578Shiyo.3578 Member ✭✭✭

    Good, raiding should be 100% optional like spvp.

  • ugrakarma.9416ugrakarma.9416 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited November 21, 2017

    finally, although it never bothered me, I always had around 2k to 5k of spirit shards with no idea where to spend it all.

    attention is drawn to Anet's delay in solving small QOLs, it took 2 years, and I do not believe it involves a lot of complex programming like making a new map or a entire expansion!.

    "It's a testament to the folly of the humans and their gods. They say Arah was sacred, but all I see is one big dragon nest."(Rytlock Brimstone)

  • ugrakarma.9416ugrakarma.9416 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Kay Hude.2910 said:
    Sorry for revining a fairly old thread, and I dont want to restart the pro/con discussion...

    Here's what anet_ianim wrote (link in the top post):
    First thing: with the next raid release, the HoT Raid Mastery Track will be hidden just like the Griffon track. They can be unlocked the same as always: by completing any raid event. We understand that some people don't want to do raids, but want their delicious Spirit Shards. So let's fix that.

    Is there any information WHEN this "next raid release" will happen? Could it be together with the upcoming LW4 release?

    Thanks,
    --kay

    On LS4 launch day 28

    "It's a testament to the folly of the humans and their gods. They say Arah was sacred, but all I see is one big dragon nest."(Rytlock Brimstone)

  • FrizzFreston.5290FrizzFreston.5290 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited November 23, 2017

    @TexZero.7910 said:

    @Illconceived Was Na.9781 said:

    @TexZero.7910 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:
    It's not like it will affect the actual raiders in any way so I'm not sure why it makes you sad.

    I wont claim it makes me sad, but it does make me question masteries as a baseline concept. If they are the true horizontal endgame that we're supposed to be shipping then having them return to the old congrats you're maxed system of spirit shards makes sense. Now they kinda just say well, we don't care if you've actually mastered anything or experienced the game have a cookie on us.

    To me this is just a silly fix for a trivial issue, that's what gets me. Instead of just increasing the spirit shards from doing your daily from 3 to 5 or whatever arbitrary number they want.

    You get that the actual amount of shards never has been the issue, right? People already get more shards than they can spend from champ bags, from random loot, from various reward tracks, etc. Lack of shards is, at worst, a temporary issue for a tiny fraction of the community.

    It's always been about the principle of locking a reward, no matter how trivial, behind something that is described, by ANet, as challenging content, intended for a small portion of players.

    The fact that it was locked was an accident of ANet delivering a quick & dirty fix to player complaints that excess XP no longer had any value. ANet literally gave us the smallest possible reward for that: spirit shards.

    So in the end, this works out closer to the idea of masteries as true horizontal progression, by separating out a track that only applies to a limited subset of players.

    Clearly the spirit shard acquisition is the root cause of the issue. People are upset that those who did max were getting something they weren't.
    Now they too can have a spirit shard for what again ? They didn't complete all the masteries instead they waited for a "fix". The core problem is they think they should be rewarded for getting 90% instead of 100%. If that's the case i'd like the GWAMM title for doing the same.

    Instead of just increasing the rate of Spirit Shard gain they went the lazy fix route again.

    The spirit shard gain was a fix for maxing out your masteries and experience not being useful at all anymore. It was never intended to be a "reward for maxing out your masteries" but rather a fix for experience points going into nothingness after you were done progressing through the mastery system.

    Ofcourse, over time people are free to twist that reality into their own idea of what it should be.

  • TexZero.7910TexZero.7910 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited November 23, 2017

    @FrizzFreston.5290 said:
    The spirit shard gain was a fix for maxing out your masteries and experience not being useful at all anymore. It was never intended to be a "reward for maxing out your masteries" but rather a fix for experience points going into nothingness after you were done progressing through the mastery system.

    Ofcourse, over time people are free to twist that reality into their own idea of what it should be.

    Which was literally a reversion to the previous system when we all capped out at 80 and were given spirit shards per extra level gained.
    It's quite literally a reward for being a complete character, no different than how masteries function.

    When the patch hits on Tuesday and that is "FIXED", it will be quite easily the most lazy way to appease a group of people who haven't truly maxed out their characters.

  • Kheldorn.5123Kheldorn.5123 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @TexZero.7910 said:

    @FrizzFreston.5290 said:
    The spirit shard gain was a fix for maxing out your masteries and experience not being useful at all anymore. It was never intended to be a "reward for maxing out your masteries" but rather a fix for experience points going into nothingness after you were done progressing through the mastery system.

    Ofcourse, over time people are free to twist that reality into their own idea of what it should be.

    Which was literally a reversion to the previous system when we all capped out at 80 and were given spirit shards per extra level gained.
    It's quite literally a reward for being a complete character, no different than how masteries function.

    When the patch hits on Tuesday and that is "FIXED", it will be quite easily the most lazy way to appease a group of people who haven't truly maxed out their characters.

    I think raid minority will be happy not to carry more people that only reason to play raid is unlocking mastery line :)

  • Cynn.1659Cynn.1659 Member ✭✭✭

    @Kheldorn.5123 said:

    @TexZero.7910 said:

    @FrizzFreston.5290 said:
    The spirit shard gain was a fix for maxing out your masteries and experience not being useful at all anymore. It was never intended to be a "reward for maxing out your masteries" but rather a fix for experience points going into nothingness after you were done progressing through the mastery system.

    Ofcourse, over time people are free to twist that reality into their own idea of what it should be.

    Which was literally a reversion to the previous system when we all capped out at 80 and were given spirit shards per extra level gained.
    It's quite literally a reward for being a complete character, no different than how masteries function.

    When the patch hits on Tuesday and that is "FIXED", it will be quite easily the most lazy way to appease a group of people who haven't truly maxed out their characters.

    I think raid minority will be happy not to carry more people that only reason to play raid is unlocking mastery line :)

    Just do escort, it's not that hard. You only neeed 5 people that know what to do, that's it.

  • Kheldorn.5123Kheldorn.5123 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Cynn.1659 said:

    @Kheldorn.5123 said:

    @TexZero.7910 said:

    @FrizzFreston.5290 said:
    The spirit shard gain was a fix for maxing out your masteries and experience not being useful at all anymore. It was never intended to be a "reward for maxing out your masteries" but rather a fix for experience points going into nothingness after you were done progressing through the mastery system.

    Ofcourse, over time people are free to twist that reality into their own idea of what it should be.

    Which was literally a reversion to the previous system when we all capped out at 80 and were given spirit shards per extra level gained.
    It's quite literally a reward for being a complete character, no different than how masteries function.

    When the patch hits on Tuesday and that is "FIXED", it will be quite easily the most lazy way to appease a group of people who haven't truly maxed out their characters.

    I think raid minority will be happy not to carry more people that only reason to play raid is unlocking mastery line :)

    Just do escort, it's not that hard. You only neeed 5 people that know what to do, that's it.

    Not anymore I don't have to :)

  • FrizzFreston.5290FrizzFreston.5290 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @FrizzFreston.5290 said:

    @TexZero.7910 said:

    @Illconceived Was Na.9781 said:

    @TexZero.7910 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:
    It's not like it will affect the actual raiders in any way so I'm not sure why it makes you sad.

    I wont claim it makes me sad, but it does make me question masteries as a baseline concept. If they are the true horizontal endgame that we're supposed to be shipping then having them return to the old congrats you're maxed system of spirit shards makes sense. Now they kinda just say well, we don't care if you've actually mastered anything or experienced the game have a cookie on us.

    To me this is just a silly fix for a trivial issue, that's what gets me. Instead of just increasing the spirit shards from doing your daily from 3 to 5 or whatever arbitrary number they want.

    You get that the actual amount of shards never has been the issue, right? People already get more shards than they can spend from champ bags, from random loot, from various reward tracks, etc. Lack of shards is, at worst, a temporary issue for a tiny fraction of the community.

    It's always been about the principle of locking a reward, no matter how trivial, behind something that is described, by ANet, as challenging content, intended for a small portion of players.

    The fact that it was locked was an accident of ANet delivering a quick & dirty fix to player complaints that excess XP no longer had any value. ANet literally gave us the smallest possible reward for that: spirit shards.

    So in the end, this works out closer to the idea of masteries as true horizontal progression, by separating out a track that only applies to a limited subset of players.

    Clearly the spirit shard acquisition is the root cause of the issue. People are upset that those who did max were getting something they weren't.
    Now they too can have a spirit shard for what again ? They didn't complete all the masteries instead they waited for a "fix". The core problem is they think they should be rewarded for getting 90% instead of 100%. If that's the case i'd like the GWAMM title for doing the same.

    Instead of just increasing the rate of Spirit Shard gain they went the lazy fix route again.

    The spirit shard gain was a fix for maxing out your masteries and experience not being useful at all anymore. It was never intended to be a "reward for maxing out your masteries" but rather a fix for experience points going into nothingness after you were done progressing through the mastery system.

    Ofcourse, over time people are free to twist that reality into their own idea of what it is intended to be.

    @TexZero.7910 said:

    @FrizzFreston.5290 said:
    The spirit shard gain was a fix for maxing out your masteries and experience not being useful at all anymore. It was never intended to be a "reward for maxing out your masteries" but rather a fix for experience points going into nothingness after you were done progressing through the mastery system.

    Ofcourse, over time people are free to twist that reality into their own idea of what it should be.

    Which was literally a reversion to the previous system when we all capped out at 80 and were given spirit shards per extra level gained.
    It's quite literally a reward for being a complete character, no different than how masteries function.

    When the patch hits on Tuesday and that is "FIXED", it will be quite easily the most lazy way to appease a group of people who haven't truly maxed out their characters.

    Like I said, you're free to put your own twist on that. To me its a functionality to not make experience gain be completely useless. To you its something only people who mastered ALL the masteries in that region deserve... Which makes no sense because it doesnt apply to PoF or core regions anyway.

    Raids dont even belong to just the HoT region.

    All in all, I think its illogical to see this as some one raid completion reward.

  • TexZero.7910TexZero.7910 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @FrizzFreston.5290 said:

    @FrizzFreston.5290 said:

    @TexZero.7910 said:

    @Illconceived Was Na.9781 said:

    @TexZero.7910 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:
    It's not like it will affect the actual raiders in any way so I'm not sure why it makes you sad.

    I wont claim it makes me sad, but it does make me question masteries as a baseline concept. If they are the true horizontal endgame that we're supposed to be shipping then having them return to the old congrats you're maxed system of spirit shards makes sense. Now they kinda just say well, we don't care if you've actually mastered anything or experienced the game have a cookie on us.

    To me this is just a silly fix for a trivial issue, that's what gets me. Instead of just increasing the spirit shards from doing your daily from 3 to 5 or whatever arbitrary number they want.

    You get that the actual amount of shards never has been the issue, right? People already get more shards than they can spend from champ bags, from random loot, from various reward tracks, etc. Lack of shards is, at worst, a temporary issue for a tiny fraction of the community.

    It's always been about the principle of locking a reward, no matter how trivial, behind something that is described, by ANet, as challenging content, intended for a small portion of players.

    The fact that it was locked was an accident of ANet delivering a quick & dirty fix to player complaints that excess XP no longer had any value. ANet literally gave us the smallest possible reward for that: spirit shards.

    So in the end, this works out closer to the idea of masteries as true horizontal progression, by separating out a track that only applies to a limited subset of players.

    Clearly the spirit shard acquisition is the root cause of the issue. People are upset that those who did max were getting something they weren't.
    Now they too can have a spirit shard for what again ? They didn't complete all the masteries instead they waited for a "fix". The core problem is they think they should be rewarded for getting 90% instead of 100%. If that's the case i'd like the GWAMM title for doing the same.

    Instead of just increasing the rate of Spirit Shard gain they went the lazy fix route again.

    The spirit shard gain was a fix for maxing out your masteries and experience not being useful at all anymore. It was never intended to be a "reward for maxing out your masteries" but rather a fix for experience points going into nothingness after you were done progressing through the mastery system.

    Ofcourse, over time people are free to twist that reality into their own idea of what it is intended to be.

    @TexZero.7910 said:

    @FrizzFreston.5290 said:
    The spirit shard gain was a fix for maxing out your masteries and experience not being useful at all anymore. It was never intended to be a "reward for maxing out your masteries" but rather a fix for experience points going into nothingness after you were done progressing through the mastery system.

    Ofcourse, over time people are free to twist that reality into their own idea of what it should be.

    Which was literally a reversion to the previous system when we all capped out at 80 and were given spirit shards per extra level gained.
    It's quite literally a reward for being a complete character, no different than how masteries function.

    When the patch hits on Tuesday and that is "FIXED", it will be quite easily the most lazy way to appease a group of people who haven't truly maxed out their characters.

    Like I said, you're free to put your own twist on that. To me its a functionality to not make experience gain be completely useless. To you its something only people who mastered ALL the masteries in that region deserve... Which makes no sense because it doesnt apply to PoF or core regions anyway.

    Raids dont even belong to just the HoT region.

    All in all, I think its illogical to see this as some one raid completion reward.

    I dont see it as one raid completion reward. I see it just as i see the old system. Stop me if this sounds familiar

    Did you get spirit shards at 50 ? 70 ? 75?
    No, you got them at 80 because that's when exp started recycling.

    Should get spirit shards at anything other than the current 253 ? No, because your exp isn't being wasted, you've just opted not to make use of it.
    That's the difference you've opted out of a system and want to reap the rewards of the prior completion system to do so. This is the problem.

  • Kheldorn.5123Kheldorn.5123 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @TexZero.7910 said:

    @FrizzFreston.5290 said:

    @FrizzFreston.5290 said:

    @TexZero.7910 said:

    @Illconceived Was Na.9781 said:

    @TexZero.7910 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:
    It's not like it will affect the actual raiders in any way so I'm not sure why it makes you sad.

    I wont claim it makes me sad, but it does make me question masteries as a baseline concept. If they are the true horizontal endgame that we're supposed to be shipping then having them return to the old congrats you're maxed system of spirit shards makes sense. Now they kinda just say well, we don't care if you've actually mastered anything or experienced the game have a cookie on us.

    To me this is just a silly fix for a trivial issue, that's what gets me. Instead of just increasing the spirit shards from doing your daily from 3 to 5 or whatever arbitrary number they want.

    You get that the actual amount of shards never has been the issue, right? People already get more shards than they can spend from champ bags, from random loot, from various reward tracks, etc. Lack of shards is, at worst, a temporary issue for a tiny fraction of the community.

    It's always been about the principle of locking a reward, no matter how trivial, behind something that is described, by ANet, as challenging content, intended for a small portion of players.

    The fact that it was locked was an accident of ANet delivering a quick & dirty fix to player complaints that excess XP no longer had any value. ANet literally gave us the smallest possible reward for that: spirit shards.

    So in the end, this works out closer to the idea of masteries as true horizontal progression, by separating out a track that only applies to a limited subset of players.

    Clearly the spirit shard acquisition is the root cause of the issue. People are upset that those who did max were getting something they weren't.
    Now they too can have a spirit shard for what again ? They didn't complete all the masteries instead they waited for a "fix". The core problem is they think they should be rewarded for getting 90% instead of 100%. If that's the case i'd like the GWAMM title for doing the same.

    Instead of just increasing the rate of Spirit Shard gain they went the lazy fix route again.

    The spirit shard gain was a fix for maxing out your masteries and experience not being useful at all anymore. It was never intended to be a "reward for maxing out your masteries" but rather a fix for experience points going into nothingness after you were done progressing through the mastery system.

    Ofcourse, over time people are free to twist that reality into their own idea of what it is intended to be.

    @TexZero.7910 said:

    @FrizzFreston.5290 said:
    The spirit shard gain was a fix for maxing out your masteries and experience not being useful at all anymore. It was never intended to be a "reward for maxing out your masteries" but rather a fix for experience points going into nothingness after you were done progressing through the mastery system.

    Ofcourse, over time people are free to twist that reality into their own idea of what it should be.

    Which was literally a reversion to the previous system when we all capped out at 80 and were given spirit shards per extra level gained.
    It's quite literally a reward for being a complete character, no different than how masteries function.

    When the patch hits on Tuesday and that is "FIXED", it will be quite easily the most lazy way to appease a group of people who haven't truly maxed out their characters.

    Like I said, you're free to put your own twist on that. To me its a functionality to not make experience gain be completely useless. To you its something only people who mastered ALL the masteries in that region deserve... Which makes no sense because it doesnt apply to PoF or core regions anyway.

    Raids dont even belong to just the HoT region.

    All in all, I think its illogical to see this as some one raid completion reward.

    I dont see it as one raid completion reward. I see it just as i see the old system. Stop me if this sounds familiar

    Did you get spirit shards at 50 ? 70 ? 75?
    No, you got them at 80 because that's when exp started recycling.

    Should get spirit shards at anything other than the current 253 ? No, because your exp isn't being wasted, you've just opted not to make use of it.
    That's the difference you've opted out of a system and want to reap the rewards of the prior completion system to do so. This is the problem.

    Except raid are considered by anet as exclusive content and by design are no meant for everyone. That means, raids should not halt anyone's progression

  • TexZero.7910TexZero.7910 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Kheldorn.5123 said:

    @TexZero.7910 said:

    @FrizzFreston.5290 said:

    @FrizzFreston.5290 said:

    @TexZero.7910 said:

    @Illconceived Was Na.9781 said:

    @TexZero.7910 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:
    It's not like it will affect the actual raiders in any way so I'm not sure why it makes you sad.

    I wont claim it makes me sad, but it does make me question masteries as a baseline concept. If they are the true horizontal endgame that we're supposed to be shipping then having them return to the old congrats you're maxed system of spirit shards makes sense. Now they kinda just say well, we don't care if you've actually mastered anything or experienced the game have a cookie on us.

    To me this is just a silly fix for a trivial issue, that's what gets me. Instead of just increasing the spirit shards from doing your daily from 3 to 5 or whatever arbitrary number they want.

    You get that the actual amount of shards never has been the issue, right? People already get more shards than they can spend from champ bags, from random loot, from various reward tracks, etc. Lack of shards is, at worst, a temporary issue for a tiny fraction of the community.

    It's always been about the principle of locking a reward, no matter how trivial, behind something that is described, by ANet, as challenging content, intended for a small portion of players.

    The fact that it was locked was an accident of ANet delivering a quick & dirty fix to player complaints that excess XP no longer had any value. ANet literally gave us the smallest possible reward for that: spirit shards.

    So in the end, this works out closer to the idea of masteries as true horizontal progression, by separating out a track that only applies to a limited subset of players.

    Clearly the spirit shard acquisition is the root cause of the issue. People are upset that those who did max were getting something they weren't.
    Now they too can have a spirit shard for what again ? They didn't complete all the masteries instead they waited for a "fix". The core problem is they think they should be rewarded for getting 90% instead of 100%. If that's the case i'd like the GWAMM title for doing the same.

    Instead of just increasing the rate of Spirit Shard gain they went the lazy fix route again.

    The spirit shard gain was a fix for maxing out your masteries and experience not being useful at all anymore. It was never intended to be a "reward for maxing out your masteries" but rather a fix for experience points going into nothingness after you were done progressing through the mastery system.

    Ofcourse, over time people are free to twist that reality into their own idea of what it is intended to be.

    @TexZero.7910 said:

    @FrizzFreston.5290 said:
    The spirit shard gain was a fix for maxing out your masteries and experience not being useful at all anymore. It was never intended to be a "reward for maxing out your masteries" but rather a fix for experience points going into nothingness after you were done progressing through the mastery system.

    Ofcourse, over time people are free to twist that reality into their own idea of what it should be.

    Which was literally a reversion to the previous system when we all capped out at 80 and were given spirit shards per extra level gained.
    It's quite literally a reward for being a complete character, no different than how masteries function.

    When the patch hits on Tuesday and that is "FIXED", it will be quite easily the most lazy way to appease a group of people who haven't truly maxed out their characters.

    Like I said, you're free to put your own twist on that. To me its a functionality to not make experience gain be completely useless. To you its something only people who mastered ALL the masteries in that region deserve... Which makes no sense because it doesnt apply to PoF or core regions anyway.

    Raids dont even belong to just the HoT region.

    All in all, I think its illogical to see this as some one raid completion reward.

    I dont see it as one raid completion reward. I see it just as i see the old system. Stop me if this sounds familiar

    Did you get spirit shards at 50 ? 70 ? 75?
    No, you got them at 80 because that's when exp started recycling.

    Should get spirit shards at anything other than the current 253 ? No, because your exp isn't being wasted, you've just opted not to make use of it.
    That's the difference you've opted out of a system and want to reap the rewards of the prior completion system to do so. This is the problem.

    Except raid are considered by anet as exclusive content and by design are no meant for everyone. That means, raids should not halt anyone's progression

    Raids dont halt anyone's progress. The only one who can do that is the player themselves.

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