Suggestion (for next year): Private Labyrinth instances — Guild Wars 2 Forums

Suggestion (for next year): Private Labyrinth instances

Danikat.8537Danikat.8537 Member ✭✭✭✭
edited November 2, 2017 in Guild Wars 2 Discussion

There's been a lot of discussion this Halloween about the issues with various people acting like they own a Labyrinth instance and can tell everyone else in it how to play or demand that they leave. This isn't a new problem by any means (or exclusive to the Lab) but it seems to me that it's been worse than in previous years. The more I think about it the more I think the best solution for everyone might actually be to give them exactly what they want.


How it could work:

Option 1: Default Lab - Exactly what we've got now.
You enter the Lab via a door in LA or any other method and you end up on a public copy of the map. You can then play on that map or use LFG/logging out and back in to switch as you wish.

Option 2: Private Lab
This would need to be 'activated' in some way - I think speaking to the Lunatic Boatmaster would be the easiest to implement but whatever works. It takes you to a brand new copy of the Lab map which is identical in every way to the one you left except that other people can only join it by first joining your party/squad and then using the right-click [join in Mad Kings Labyrinth] option. (Or possibly the pop-up that already exists for Fractals and Dungeons.) If you don't advertise it then no one else will be able to get in, or even know it's there.

If you want to solo everything on the map then you can, safe in the knowledge that no one else is going to come along and interrupt.
If you want to play with just your guild or little group of friends you can do that too.
If you want to get a full map and run a strictly organised squad where everyone must wear purple and kneel in front of each door before it opens, well you can do that as well.

Most importantly it means the people who want to play solo will never find their map 'taken over' by a squad that demands they start wearing purple and kneeling to doors and the squad will never find they're unable to fill their map because some randoms are running around trying to solo everything.


Possible arguments against doing this (and my responses):

Anet don't want to promote exclusivity or splitting the playerbase up unnecessarily and normally I'd say that's a great philosophy. But I'd argue that the Lab is a special case for 2 reasons:
1. It's very small for a PvE map and each copy is only able to hold 25 people, which makes it more like a large raid or a guild mission than an open-world map.
2. As a result of number 1 it's already fairly common to see semi-private maps - a commander gets onto an empty map, advertises it in LFG and within minutes they can fill it up, at least to the point where the game won't drop random extra people into it.

So IMO all this would do is formalise the process we basically already have and prevent conflicts when people who expect a private instance find they don't have one.

However, I also think it could be useful to put some sort of restriction in place so players are discouraged from creating a private instance unless they really want one. I thought about restricting it to commanders but that could exclude a lot of the people who want to play solo as they're unlikely to have a tag. I think a better solution might be to either restrict it to 1 private map created per day (using the daily reset) and/or add a cost to open one. Make it something reasonable like 5g - low enough that you can get it back easily by playing in the Lab, but enough that people aren't likely to create a private copy just for the sake of it.

Alternatively maybe making a private lab could require a token which you can only get in the Lab, meaning you have to play on a public map 1st. But that brings us onto...

It would take too much time/effort/new tech for Anet to develop. Of course only Anet can answer this accurately, but I think this suggestion should require relatively minimal effort on their part. The technology to create private copies of maps and then invite other players in already exists - it's used in dungeons, Raids, guild halls, the Triple Trouble Wurm boss etc. All they'd need to do is apply it to this map. This is also why I suggested making a new map by talking to the Lunatic Boatmaster - it avoids the need for any new UI elements or tech. He's already able to send you to Lunatic Inquisition or the Clocktower, I assume the same method can be used to send you to a new Lab. And of course there's nothing new needed to be able to invite other people because we've already got the LFG tool and right-click to join system.

What if people join a private map then leave the squad to troll them? For example joining out hypothetical squad from earlier, leaving the squad as soon as they're in the map and then brazenly wearing what is clearly Magenta instead of pink and refusing to bow before doors. (Or more seriously running around opening doors before the squad arrives, opening boss doors when the squad said they're not doing them and all the other things we see currently.)

I have to admit I don't have a solution to this one, except that I think the whole idea is a solution to the root cause of it. I seriously doubt many people now deliberately get onto the same map as a strictly run squad so that they can defy their rules. Likewise I doubt many commanders get into a nearly empty map and go "Hey that one dude seems like he's happy no one else is around, time to invite my whole guild and demand that he leaves now we're here!". I think if people who are using the Lab in different ways were given their own separate copies to play in the incentive to troll each other would disappear.


That's (finally) it from me. But I'd really like to know what other people think - is it a good idea? Could it be changed or improved? Is there a problem I've not thought of yet? Do you want a cookie for reading the whole thing even though it was boring?

"You can run like a river, Till you end up in the sea,
And you run till night is black, And keep on going in your dreams,
And you know all the long while, It's the journey that you seek,
It's the miles of moving forward, With the wind beneath your wings."

Comments

  • Titan.3472Titan.3472 Member ✭✭✭

    Well could as well play offline on your own machine...

  • Danikat.8537Danikat.8537 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Titan.3472 said:
    Well could as well play offline on your own machine...

    Did you actually read beyond the title?

    Playing entirely solo is just one way this could be used (and I suspect it'd be the rarest). It's mainly geared towards people who want to play with their friends/guild or with an organised squad without having the very limited spaces in the map taken up by other people who the game decided to drop into the same copy they're in.

    "You can run like a river, Till you end up in the sea,
    And you run till night is black, And keep on going in your dreams,
    And you know all the long while, It's the journey that you seek,
    It's the miles of moving forward, With the wind beneath your wings."

  • We've seen posts about labyrinth runners behaving badly, but is the problem really widespread enough that it requires ANet to do anything?

    One of the fun things for me about the Lab is that it brings all sorts of people together for common cause, one that isn't that stressful (for most of us). There's no meta loot at the end, so small (and even large) mistakes are easily overcome. Creating private instances works against this sort of community. I'd think that there are better ways to deal with the occasional troll or power-tripping commander. For example, I just change instances (a little annoying, but only takes a few clicks).

    "With great power comes not-so-great utility bills."

  • Danikat.8537Danikat.8537 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Illconceived Was Na.9781 said:
    We've seen posts about labyrinth runners behaving badly, but is the problem really widespread enough that it requires ANet to do anything?

    One of the fun things for me about the Lab is that it brings all sorts of people together for common cause, one that isn't that stressful (for most of us). There's no meta loot at the end, so small (and even large) mistakes are easily overcome. Creating private instances works against this sort of community. I'd think that there are better ways to deal with the occasional troll or power-tripping commander. For example, I just change instances (a little annoying, but only takes a few clicks).

    How common does a problem have to be to justify a solution? I've not been playing the Lab as much as I usually do this year, although I've still been in it a lot, and I'd say I've personally witnessed some type of argument resulting from people with conflicting priorities playing on the same map at least once every other day. And that's with me deliberately seeking out relatively laidback groups.

    I agree that one of the great things about the Lab is that it gets people playing together and I absolutely wouldn't want to change that. But I also don't think adding this option would change it. I think just the fact that it's an optional extra step will help with that, because anyone who doesn't feel strongly enough about it to make the effort will stay on a public map. But that's also why I suggested putting some sort of restriction on how often private instances can be created - again to keep it to only those who really want it.

    My expectation is that the majority of people will continue to play exactly as they do now. This option would just remove the minority of people who are unhappy enough with the current system that they will complain and/or try to force people to comply with their rules, which can make playing in the Lab an unpleasant experience for everyone involved. And it's because I expect that only a minority would use it that I tried to come up with a solution that requires relatively minimal effort from Anet and none from players who are fine with how it works now.

    I'm not saying the current system is faulty and needs to be fixed - just that I think it could be improved.

    "You can run like a river, Till you end up in the sea,
    And you run till night is black, And keep on going in your dreams,
    And you know all the long while, It's the journey that you seek,
    It's the miles of moving forward, With the wind beneath your wings."

  • I'm not against ANet adjusting the labyrinth. I'm just not sure that this is that big an issue and it feels like a lot of effort to address something that's limited to a few people who don't know how to play well with others. It also feels like imposing exclusivity rather than promoting inclusiveness.

    Here's some other ways of addressing the stated issue:

    • Limiting to one commander per map
    • Changing it so only commanders can open the doors.
    • Generating two types of labyrinth: one without boss doors, one with. People can choose which they want.
    • Increasing the respawn timers on ambient mobs and/or increasing rewards for killing bosses (changing the calculus on whether to skip or open)

    @Danikat.8537 said:

    How common does a problem have to be to justify a solution?

    Very common, to the point that it affects a huge plurality of people. Otherwise, it's a business expense without a good reason. (Obviously, we won't know the exact threshold for ANet; I just mean it's got to be more than an occasional annoyance.)

    "With great power comes not-so-great utility bills."

  • Only commanders can open the doors...... that won't result in someone throwing up a tag and trolling everyone in there..... nope, no chance...

  • Randulf.7614Randulf.7614 Member ✭✭✭✭

    I don't think Anet will do anything like this, it simply goes against their pillar of cooperation. This is a festival, players should be working together not isolating themselves into little exclusive groups for what is nothing more than running around for a bit of light hearted fun for a couple of weeks. I get that you are trying to limit it with gold and other means, but I think this being over thought for something that for the vast majority of players appears to work as it is

    Personally the only Lab change I'd prob like to see is randomisation of doors and the mobs produced so bosses are a bit more of a lottery, otherwise the current system is fine and works.

  • My wife is one of the people who enjoys playing GW2 by herself. I wanted to take her in the labs but she realized she would be forced to play by someone elses rules else be hated by everyone in the instance. She's been avoiding the Labs for that reason. If there was a private instance (or at least one that can be tied to a specific guild) that would be grand.

  • This might be one of those things that will just have to rely on human decency. I wouldn't want to be prevented from opening doors myself. If I see a commander on the map, I join in and don't open doors, but if there's no commander I think it's fair game to play as if you're the only one in there. Recently, it's felt like I was the only one in there, as Steve seemed to be chasing only me the entire time, the poor thing. I think he gets lonely.

  • Coulter.2315Coulter.2315 Member ✭✭✭

    I personally find I end up in a close to private version on loading in most times and need to search for and join a more populated instance. If you just pop in and out a few times you'll probably land on a close to empty instance.

    Halloween doesn't get a lot of updating, if they were to burn some resources on it I would not wish those resources to go towards private versions of stuff we already have access to. Some "problems" are just too small to warrant sacrifice, this is one of them.

  • @Blockhead Magee.3092 said:
    Only commanders can open the doors...... that won't result in someone throwing up a tag and trolling everyone in there..... nope, no chance...

    also one commander per map will result in the same trolling

  • Urud.4925Urud.4925 Member ✭✭✭

    @Illconceived Was Na.9781 said:
    Here's some other ways of addressing the stated issue:

    • Limiting to one commander per map
    • Changing it so only commanders can open the doors.
    • Generating two types of labyrinth: one without boss doors, one with. People can choose which they want.
    • Increasing the respawn timers on ambient mobs and/or increasing rewards for killing bosses (changing the calculus on whether to skip or open)

    Imo the OP solutions were better. Think about all the players without a comm tag/free accounts etc. They wouldn't be able to enjoy the event, and would be considered as B-players. Not fair. (you can fairly often find maps without a comm, especially if you play at night).
    Same for the map without boss doors. Why? Better a solo instance at this point. Bosses are there to annoy you; a labyrinth without them would be just a boring farmland. (Can we remove pocket raptors? They annoy me.)

    I don't think it's a big problem right now, but I did find some map that was monopolized by one comm, dictating the rules and kicking out whoever didn't like them or said "bad farming, comm". Ofc they could remain on the map and keep playing solo/opening the doors.
    I can't blame Anet for this or asking for a "fix" if even 25 people are not able to play together during a festival.

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Danikat.8537 said:
    Most importantly it means the people who want to play solo will never find their map 'taken over' by a squad that demands they start wearing purple and kneeling to doors and the squad will never find they're unable to fill their map because some randoms are running around trying to solo everything.

    Why not eliminate the problems that lead to that player behavior instead?
    a) Make the bosses rewarding to fight
    b) Add a participation meter, working like a reward track, that fills as you finish events
    c) Add more events, not only door events so the above meter can fill faster, can make events similar to Lunatic Inquisition, gather items, give them to NPCs
    d) Base rewards on meter progression instead of mindless spam of abilities
    e) Door events that spawn mobs give a reward chest in the end, instead of each foe killed dropping individual rewards

    Effects:
    First and foremost, play how you want is enforced and commanders/other players cannot scream at others for not playing "optimally".
    -You no longer have to remove your trinkets, use magi gear or only spam auto attacks anymore. Mobs don't drop loot, so you need to bring your A game to finish events quickly to get rewards.
    -Builds with huge area of effect skills or easy spam auto attacks that hit many foes are no longer at a huge advantage in the lab. All builds can be used at an equal base, the "loot-stick" (and any currently used equivalents since the nerf) no longer exist.

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