Did we undersell sword?

One of the things that has always interested me is weapon performance in non-peak conditions. Like how after much testing I discovered that the hammer out-DPSes the bomb kit in situations without maximum might, I think we may be underselling sword in its performance. Something stood out to me about the sword skills: the self-quickness on skill 3. If we assume you're running with a chronobuffer it isn't useful, but what about when you're not? I've done several tests, with the following conditions:

Build: Qt's Power Holosmith build, but instead of Shrapnel I have Orbital Command.Consumables: Can of Steak and Asparagus, Compact Hardened Sharpening Stones:Self boons: Full Might, Swiftness, Regeneration, Fury.Self buffs: Alacrity, Spotter, Frost Spirit, Empower Allies, Banner of Discipline, Banner of Strength, x5 Grace of the Land.Golem: Nothing

For this test, I avoided using most of the skills that the engineer has available. This is just to test out bomb kit vs. sword, and in doing such throwing in utility skills and the photon forge just adds noise. It is better to see which is better without the other skills, that way we can choose which one to use with other skills. For the bomb kit, I used only the auto attack and the fire bomb, except in the dry run without might, in which case I didn't use fire bomb. For the sword, I used the skills 1-3 whenever they were off cooldown, and auto attacked when they were.

First, a dry run with no boons or buffs:

Bomb kit DPS:42434198424443724439

Sword/Shield no heat DPS48274730477547674742

Sword/Shield 50% heat DPS:60145882587659535939

As above, with buffs.

Bomb kit DPS:96039718953796129558

Sword/Shield no heat DPS:10,0319602969396909703

Sword/Shield with over 50% heat DPS:1140010887109771094310995

Finally, buffs above but with quickness added. For this, I didn't use sword skill 3, because although it grants quickness it is also unaffected by quickness, and it is a DPS loss.

Bomb Kit DPS:1438513813138861409814103

Sword/Shield, No heat:1251512412124831254712597

Sword/Shield, 50% heat:1283512898131151320413207

Conclusion: Again, the Engineer has been given a weapon that is pretty good, but only in select circumstances. In situations where you do not have permanent quickness, the sword is preferable to camping the bomb kit. But, if somebody else gives you quickness, then the sword isn't nearly as useful.

You're able to achieve those nicer numbers using sword without quickness, by camping sword.

Sword is going to be more DPS if you camp it. This is because the more you auto-attack, the faster you recharge your quickness.

In reality you'll be using sword as filler. In reality you have other DPS skills that are priority which will take away from your time to spam sword autos and quickly recharge your #2 and #3 skills.

@Chaith.8256 said:You're able to achieve those nicer numbers using sword without quickness, by camping sword.

Sword is going to be more DPS if you camp it. This is because the more you auto-attack, the faster you recharge your quickness.

In reality you'll be using sword as filler. In reality you have other DPS skills that are priority which will take away from your time to spam sword autos and quickly recharge your #2 and #3 skills.

That's correct, sword 3 also has a giant aftercast that doesn't really synergize well with anything. Hope it gets fixed today.

Problem is, the total damage output from your sword in 5 seconds is equivalent to what I would get with a single leap shot from my rifle. So that + blunderbuss and I can swap back to photon forge, where the real holosmith DPS comes from. Or swap to grenades/bombs and hit +2 more targets in a larger AOE compared to sword, so the actual DPS is much higher for them. For quickness I just use Elixir U because it's insta-cast (hurray, no animation locks!) and also provides a nice 10 second missile reflect/block utility. Sword was a nice idea to role play with the engineer's shield, but as engineers we don't get to camp our primary weapons. Riffle brings us the quick hitters we need + better CC.

I'd also highlight that you chose to use bomb kit to compare against sword -- bomb kit was nerfed prior to the launch of PoF as a likely way to promote the new elite specs.

Sword looks like it's back on the menu now. Should test to confirm but looks like the buffs might be enough to replace bomb auto

@Adamantium.3682 said:Sword looks like it's back on the menu now. Should test to confirm but looks like the buffs might be enough to replace bomb auto

It would have to beat bomb plus rifle to be relevant.

@Krag.6210 said:

@Adamantium.3682 said:Sword looks like it's back on the menu now. Should test to confirm but looks like the buffs might be enough to replace bomb auto

You're right, that's a fair clarification thanks.

Refraction Cutter might be comparable to Blunderbuss at >50% heat. That leaves Jump Shot to replace. What I hope for and the first thing I will try when I get home is Acid Bomb to replace Jump Shot's damage. The net change is:

[sword auto + RC + AB] >= [bomb auto + Blunderbuss + Jump Shot]

If that works, or is within an insignificant margin, the Holosmith build that was about as sturdy as a wet Kleenex with practically no group support now has shield and Elixir Gun for the same or better damage. I guess if you're going for max DPS you would offhand pistol... but for most things I really want the block and breakbar of shield to avoid mechanics.

EDIT: End game PvE, Fractals t4/CMs and raids

@Chaith.8256 said:You're able to achieve those nicer numbers using sword without quickness, by camping sword.

Sword is going to be more DPS if you camp it. This is because the more you auto-attack, the faster you recharge your quickness.

In reality you'll be using sword as filler. In reality you have other DPS skills that are priority which will take away from your time to spam sword autos and quickly recharge your #2 and #3 skills.

The other DPS skills occupy time that still ticks down the sword skills. In practice, the damage rotation for the Holosmith looks more like this:

Sword 3Sword 2Grenade BarrageBig Ole BombGrenade Trio (Shrapnel, Freeze, Poison)Fire BombPhoton Forge and skillsLaser DiskPhoton Forge blows upRegular Sword rotation until other skills go off cooldown

After going through the whole rotation, the sword skills have cooled down. The only time that you'll end up camping the sword is after Photon Forge explodes, which is the ideal time to camp sword due to the heat benefits. This is the point where you would normally sit on the bomb kit and use autos for awhile.

@Nate.8146 said:Problem is, the total damage output from your sword in 5 seconds is equivalent to what I would get with a single leap shot from my rifle. So that + blunderbuss and I can swap back to photon forge, where the real holosmith DPS comes from. Or swap to grenades/bombs and hit +2 more targets in a larger AOE compared to sword, so the actual DPS is much higher for them. For quickness I just use Elixir U because it's insta-cast (hurray, no animation locks!) and also provides a nice 10 second missile reflect/block utility. Sword was a nice idea to role play with the engineer's shield, but as engineers we don't get to camp our primary weapons. Riffle brings us the quick hitters we need + better CC.

It's really not. On my build at rest, jump shot from rifle is 3057 damage. A single sword auto-chain does 3205 damage.

@Adamantium.3682 said:

@Krag.6210 said:

@Adamantium.3682 said:Sword looks like it's back on the menu now. Should test to confirm but looks like the buffs might be enough to replace bomb auto

It is hard to beat grenade kit + bomb kit + laser disk as far as DPS is concerned. I'm not sure that choosing elixir gun over laser disk is a notable DPS gain. All of this information about the sword above, albeit out of date due to the recent sword buffs, exists to demonstrate that the sword is a good weapon in cases where you do not have permanent quickness. With permanent quickness, you're better off camping the bomb kit for damage.

I have found the shield to be pretty useful, though. It has good CC, a blast finisher, and the blocks/reflects have been pretty useful. Another small benefit is that, due to the chaos of combat, I don't always bring the Photon Forge to explode. I'll switch it of as to not blow up for no reason. But, when I engage combat again later, I'll get locked out of kits for several seconds only for the forge to fire off a single volley. When this would happen, I would end up stuck on the rifle, which meant I did terrible damage at best and outright died from a lack of utility at worst. But the Sword + Shield combo can hold its own.

I never considered replacing LD, EG would replace bombs because you don't need them for auto. All guesswork at this point

I agree shield is useful, just cooldowns are bad. I think the trait should be baseline with the protection and CD reduction. But I get jealous of guards and mesmers cheesing mechanics with block, evade, and invuln and I want to do it too.

From preliminary testing sword is still strictly worse than rifle, part of it is toolbelt skills actually scaling on weapon strength so with a rifle they do 15% more damage or so.

Also found out the new solar focusing lens does no power damage buff right now...

The patch had me hyped but right now we got basically nothing. Maybe someone can find a better/more proper rotation.

I did very basic tests just as a "rough draft" so to speak to see if Sw/Sh+Nades/LD/E Gun is even worth thinking about. Didn't use food, and obviously no more GOTL so I didn't expect to reach the pre patch bench mark. I purposefully have small sample sizes, I don't want to spend all night doing this.

1. Current meta build: 27529
2. Sword/Shield + Grenade Kit / Laser Disk / Elixir Gun. Using basically the same rotation but sword instead of bomb auto. 27199, 27063
3. Same skills as 2, but this time above 50% heat I didn't go into Grenade kit. I only did that after 50%. 26719, 26751. Rotation feels a little weird and I screwed up the second one.
4. Using pistol offhand for max dps: 27684. Rotation feels pretty smooth, Blowtorch seems to fit nicely. When the dust settles I think this will be on qT's meta for Holo, whether bombs stay remains to be seen but I think S/P will pass rifle.

These are not meant to draw any conclusions from, I'm 100% sure someone else will have more accurate information in the coming days. This is a paint roller not a fine brush.

EDIT: Edited results to use dps.report instead of in-game.

Sword is way, way better now. Radiant Arc animates noticeably faster, Sword autos hit harder, Refraction cutter can hit harder than blunderbuss and every projectile can hit a small target.

Since you don't actually need to condition spam with kits, you can just run something like Rifle turret just to spam surprise shotoff cooldown without interrupting your attack chain.

Sword got swole, but it's still "alright" compared to Bombs + Rifle. Fact is that Photonic Blasting Module is crazy good, and while I can get the two builds within reach of one another, burning up and blowing cooldowns while you cool down is superior to the static discharge / sword / Expanded Capacity build. Not by a lot, admittedly, and I have suspicions that the sword build would be better in real usage as opposed to a vacuum (dodging enabling the 10% extra damage, near-100%-100%-bonus-endurance-uptime, a ton of self-contained might/quickness in the common event your buffbots aren't up to snuff, etc).

My numbers without utility / food buffs were around 31.5k bomb/PBM build versus 29-30k static-sword-ECS setup. I did try other iterations, like Elixir Gun + Sword + PBM and whatnot, but you really need ECS to make sword work out well, nearly explode and then re-engage forge around ~80% heat, nearly explode again, repeat. The 15.5% damage gain from explosives (and the damage-cooldown traits) aren't quite as potent as animation-free DPS when you're trying as hard as you can to spam Refraction Cutter at 100%+ heat.

And for what it's worth, my tests were done with all conditions / allied boons, so it's not realistic, but I kept it apples:apples within the context of comparing one engy build to another.

I had thought ECSU was definitely more worth using with sword due to added buffs above 100%, but I hadn't tried that. It does seem comparable to rifle with PBM though.

Losing the high uptime of Laser's Edge after you explode in PBM, as well as the explosion damage itself, is a big loss I don't think can be made up by ECSU. Happy to be proven wrong and I would like to see tests of that.

Sword is flawed in design as long as it tries to compete in a pure engi power build imo. We have rifle and bomb Kit for that, what the sword should be imo is the go to weapon for hybrid griever build, a melee option with some condi application that compliments off hand pistol close up flame burst.

I think this could be done by adding even half a sec burning to the auto attack chain on sword and maybe ramp some condi on 2 and 3 skills as well

There's a hybrid grieving build?

Doesn't seem so.

tldr; quoting: "you need 100% crit chance, all your condi damage to come from 1 condition, and about 20% of your damage to come from Power. That currently fits one build: dps firebrand."

Actually, hmh - the projectile finishers on Refraction Cutter are individual and guaranteed, so 5x projectile finishers when cooling down thrice before re-engaging is pretty potent. Gap might be even closer than I realize.

Edit: Been breaching my PBM records after this patch with Sword, 31.7k is my highest in the first 2m of the 10m golem (all buffs/conditions, no food/utility/infusions). Highest PBM I've done was in the 31.5k but I haven't been able to come close to that and am wondering if I accidentally tacked another 1k on there.

I don't think ECSU + Static Discharge would do better than the meta trait setup due to losing out on modifiers whether you take out Explosives or Firearms, plus you end up kinda mortgaging your skill bar just to get the lowest CD toolbelt skills. I would love to be proved wrong here as well!

Anyone have an idea on when Orbital Command becomes worth taking? I'm thinking if I don' tuse Bombs and only using Barrage off CD and 3 of the Grenade skills every once in awhile that Grenadier is losing a lot of value.

I should've mentioned I dropped Tools for Explosives and am running Surprise Shot + Grenade Kit. Not even using the kit, just Barrage. Don't think there are any higher DPS skills to choose from in terms of animation time : output than Surprise Shot / Barrage / Laser Disk.

@Adamantium.3682 said:I don't think ECSU + Static Discharge would do better than the meta trait setup due to losing out on modifiers whether you take out Explosives or Firearms, plus you end up kinda mortgaging your skill bar just to get the lowest CD toolbelt skills. I would love to be proved wrong here as well!

Anyone have an idea on when Orbital Command becomes worth taking? I'm thinking if I don' tuse Bombs and only using Barrage off CD and 3 of the Grenade skills every once in awhile that Grenadier is losing a lot of value.

The explosives grandmasters are a bit tricky. Orbital Command, in peak conditions, will underperform compared to the other two. But, in more realistic conditions, the skill is pretty good. It works on all power builds, it is low maintenance, it works regardless of might stacks, works at range or in melee. It is the 'safe" option, because it is the most consistent and reliable grandmaster.

If you have maximum might and camp the bomb or grenade kit, then Shrapnel will do more damage that Orbital Command. Effective sword use puts this into question, though.

The dodge skill is the highest DPS, but it is impractical. Having to constantly dodge through your enemy eats up a lot of opportunity costs, and the advantage of this skill diminishes with the presence of quickness.

Oy, Shrapnel not Grenadier thanks.

Yeah I really like Mine Trail, it hits like a truck and made up a huge portion of damage in the old core power build. It's just not really relevant for Holo.

I will probably check out OC and see how it does

@Kamahl.3621 said:I should've mentioned I dropped Tools for Explosives and am running Surprise Shot + Grenade Kit. Not even using the kit, just Barrage. Don't think there are any higher DPS skills to choose from in terms of animation time : output than Surprise Shot / Barrage / Laser Disk.

Oof, dropping the 15% modifier from explosives hurts. Not sure there's anything SD can do to make that up.

I agree with your utility choices, although Photon Wall is in the running against grenade kit.

We'll have to wait for solar focused lens bugfix to give definitive numbers on my side but so far rifle still beats sword by 500-1k DPS while keeping the extra CC and the "range" option.