Counterpoint: GW2 has the best in-game cash shop I've ever seen

I've played a lot of MMOs and a lot of F2P online games, and I must say... GW2 has implemented the best in-game cashop I have ever seen.

A bad cash shop is one that directly influences in game design/philosophy decisions and systems. This is usually called "P2W" in an all-encompassing umbrella term. For example: lf something is purely cosmetic (no matter how desirable), then Anet (and any developer) would not have any reason (read: ulterior motive) to change their core promise/mission statement/design philosophies/whatever to encourage more sales. However, if the item has even a minute "P2W" (non-comsetic benefit) then things can get dicey. Like the QoL stuff Anet has implemented. Let's use the infinite gathering tools as an example. Because this is not just a cosmetic, it could lead to design changes that make the game worse, to make more money for Anet. So, if Anet felt so inclined, they could jack up the in-game price of gathering tools, they can make them only stack to 10, they can make them break (or rust) over time if they aren't used in time, etc. Something like Mount Skins cannot have this effect on design. And that's good. It doesn't matter how they are sold.

IF ANYTHING, people should be far more upset that bank slots and bag slots are gem-shop items. These types of things could potentially directly influence design decisions for the worse (i.e., purposefully making inventory management a pain to encourage purchasing more space).

Imagine, if you will, Mount Skins were instead created randomly from combining items in the Mystic Forge. Would we have had this huge of a backlash? You can use gold now to buy gems, so really it's doesn't take that great of an imagination to see that it's basically the same thing. Putting it in the cash shop just makes it simpler and more straight forward.

Game developers, historically, have kinda crappy jobs. Their hourly rate, if you add up hours worked against their salary, is LOW. It has a high burnout rate. If the company can make 1.8% more profit by selling skins this way, why wouldn't they do it? This is not morally wrong. In fact, not making more money to prevent layoffs is morally wrong.

unning a business is damn hard. You have a lot of peoples lives and livelihoods in your hands. Let's take a step back and stop waving our pitchforks at these "greedy bastards" and ask ourselves ... "If I could make $1,000 dollars or $10,000 without breaking any laws, from consenting consumers, which one would I choose?"

Used to have*

This is a B2P game that for years stood as an example for fair microtransaction model. We are currently experiencing Anet testing waters of how far and how fast they can go with this scheme. It didn't start tomorrow, it's happening since the revamp of BLCs and introducing more and more unique skins gated behind RNG.

We are not talking about single mount being BLC exclusive here. We are talking about 30 skins locked behind RNG box that you have no control how much you have to spend to get the one you want. 1 player will pay 400 gems to get the one desired skin, the other may be required to buy all of them to get it.

Unless players make their disgust heard this is only a step to worse practices. So this is one of many points where the community has to say "NO". If you keep people down with claims you posted, you are ony hurting yourself in the future.

Come on now OP, it is torches and pitchforks time. You can't go on making reasonable arguments. (/s)

Yeah, F2P games can implement whatever cash shop practices they choose to. However, we just bought an expansion. The mount skins that should've been available in-game were cut and placed in the gem store. It's a pathetic cash grab.

@Kheldorn.5123 said:Used to have*

^This so much. The gambling-but-technically-not-gambling loot box disease has infected Anet now.

You're really funny.

If cutting content from an exp. Only to add it 5 weeks later as cash shop items is fair to you then by all means waste your money. Not a single mount skin can be earned in game through actually achieving something.

I am personally not affected by this problem because i would never even consider buying something like that. I have for example still a basic glider and give a skritts rectum about it´s color.

My problem with it the question if it ok to offer this kind of content? is something that is not forbidden ok to do when it saves jobs?My personal answer is no. Still parts of your arguments are valid, designers have to eat too. But it is in no way ok that these X% bonus you see for them here are to be earned on the backs of people like recovering addicts. It´s shady business if someone gets hurt in the process and so it is as invalid as a knee jerk reaction from the heavy industry whenever a law prevents them from just dumping toxic waste that will still be poisonous when the board of directors chills in their retirement homes in hawaii. Managers are not stupid they know how to keep companies out of the red most of the time. Endangering others to get bigger profits for shareholders is wrong, even if it saves jobs.

Lootboxes are shitti and will always be a shitti business cashcrab model. A shitty happy meal for addicted peoples which wanna buy every shitti carrot they can. it is ethically a true mess that is my view. And there are a alot peoples out there who played GW because Anet didn't join that shitti lootbox train but uh no...

While not a counterpoint to what you said, I would like to somewhat dispel a myth. While I enjoy GW2's micro transaction method - in which everything for sale is quality of life/cosmetic items - I disagree with you saying that they have the best model. One of the only games I can dare say has one of the best models is Titanfall 2 - in which they ONLY sell skins (although certain skins give you a minor XP boost which does nothing but unlock more skins as you level (no gameplay effectiveness)) and usually the bundles are well priced for around 5-12 dollars for 25-50 skins. THAT is how GW2 should be done - asking $25 for ONE skin is a lot, being that most of the skins are the same mount/skin just recolored that's how I thought it would be done.

While it does rub me the wrong way - I don't see the doom and brimstone that most people are seeing - I just see GW2 testing the waters on how far they can go with microtransactions.

Trust me... if you think this is bad don't ever play an Activision game (which ironically Titanfall is part of but I guess they must have fought back some)

Would everyone have rather them not launch mount skins at all? They never ONCE advertised PoF with mount skins as if that was included content. You, the player, do not DESERVE mount skins. They, Anet, does not OWE you anything. Not a single person here bought PoF thinking they will get mount skins. (If I'm wrong, please point me to where Anet said PoF comes with mount skins).

Had they not implemented mount skins at all, your life would not be any different than if you just don't buy mount skins right now.

Black Lion Chests are FAR worse than these licences. This new system is not some nefarious breach in contract between Anet and its playerbase.

You are not a victim.

This is no worse (and it's actually better because you can't get dupes) than any digital trading card game ever made.

Finally, I bet a good amount of people actually enjoy this type of "lottery".

@pah.4931 said:Would everyone have rather them not launch mount skins at all? They never ONCE advertised PoF with mount skins as if that was included content. You, the player, do not DESERVE mount skins. They, Anet, does not OWE you anything. Not a single person here bought PoF thinking they will get mount skins. (If I'm wrong, please point me to where Anet said PoF comes with mount skins).

Had they not implemented mount skins at all, your life would not be any different than if you just don't buy mount skins right now.

Black Lion Chests are FAR worse than these licences. This new system is not some nefarious breach in contract between Anet and its playerbase.

You are not a victim.

This is no worse (and it's actually better because you can't get dupes) than any digital trading card game ever made.

Finally, I bet a good amount of people actually enjoy this type of "lottery".

Who pays for Anets salary again?

Its gambling. Its loot boxing. Two things that anyone with a brain should be against.Players do not want to shell out (possibly) 120 monies for something they do not want. Which is what you seem to not grasp.

Also the fact Anet can pump out 30+ skins and we still have base mounts, is laughable.

@pah.4931 said:Would everyone have rather them not launch mount skins at all? They never ONCE advertised PoF with mount skins as if that was included content. You, the player, do not DESERVE mount skins. They, Anet, does not OWE you anything. Not a single person here bought PoF thinking they will get mount skins. (If I'm wrong, please point me to where Anet said PoF comes with mount skins).

Had they not implemented mount skins at all, your life would not be any different than if you just don't buy mount skins right now.

Black Lion Chests are FAR worse than these licences. This new system is not some nefarious breach in contract between Anet and its playerbase.

You are not a victim.

This is no worse (and it's actually better because you can't get dupes) than any digital trading card game ever made.

Finally, I bet a good amount of people actually enjoy this type of "lottery".

I think you are misinterpreting what people want. People WANT to pay for mount skins, but for those they desire, not for RNG loot box.

I would not care if Anet did not release mount skins at all. If I don´t like what and moch more importantly Anet is offering something, I don´t buy it or move on to the next game that is more to my liking, and return if I like the conditions more. It´s not like I need Anet at all, but they need me as customer. Not me individually, but my type of people. My concern is that people are probably not as "strong" as I am and can´t just move on without having the skin and the thrill of playing lottery.

Concerning the lottery, I live in western europe. Every commercial for the lottery here has a warning included that says in bright letters:LOTTERY CAN CAUSE ADDICTION. ADULTS ONLY.And of course people enjoy the lottery. If it would be boring and predictable, nobody would play it.

Much squirreling.

If you can name any western mmos which have worse cash stores then GW2 please name them so we can debate. And don't throw in those empty platitudes that we should excuse the actions of corporations because they treat their devs badly.

is that new jackal skin really that much special from a normal one to warant the 2k gemprice, i think thats the thing here also, if it was 1k gems, i would be oke.

Now if they add a Shatterer skin for the griffon, i will be happy to pay 2k gems for it, to me, that soudns special enough to warant a 2k pricetag

@Gerrand.3085 said:Much squirreling.

If you can name any western mmos which have worse cash stores then GW2 please name them so we can debate. And don't throw in those empty platitudes that we should excuse the actions of corporations because they treat their devs badly.

Well. Any game with a monthly sub AND a cash shop is worse (WoW comes to mind). ArcheAge is FAR worse (technically eastern but they spent a lot of time on to make it "western"). Hearthstone's entire model is a worse version of the Mount Skin "lotto" of GW2.

@"Amanda Whitemoon.6173" said:is that new jackal skin really that much special from a normal one to warant the 2k gemprice, i think thats the thing here also, if it was 1k gems, i would be oke.

Now if they add a Shatterer skin for the griffon, i will be happy to pay 2k gems for it, to me, that soudns special enough to warant a 2k pricetag

Exactly. For YOU. Everybody has a different idea of what is "worth it." That doesn't make Anet evil. I would NEVER buy a super expensive sports car, even if money was not an object, because, to me, they aren't worth nearly that much. But I am ok with that company setting its own prices and letting the free market decide. And I would be OK with a company that let you gamble to win a car (wait... this is already a thing, right?) ... you, the consumer, are choosing whether or not to buy it. What's the problem?

@pah.4931 said:

@Gerrand.3085 said:Much squirreling.

If you can name any western mmos which have worse cash stores then GW2 please name them so we can debate. And don't throw in those empty platitudes that we should excuse the actions of corporations because they treat their devs badly.

WoW - you have much better customer support, more content, more updates with WoW. The game has also different bussiness model.

ArcheAge - it's eastern MMO. Is this how we want GW2 to be?

Hearthstone - in HS you can turn undesired cards into dust to buy those you want.

@Kheldorn.5123 said:Used to have*

This is a B2P game that for years stood as an example for fair microtransaction model. We are currently experiencing Anet testing waters of how far and how fast they can go with this scheme. It didn't start tomorrow, it's happening since the revamp of BLCs and introducing more and more unique skins gated behind RNG.

We are not talking about single mount being BLC exclusive here. We are talking about 30 skins locked behind RNG box that you have no control how much you have to spend to get the one you want. 1 player will pay 400 gems to get the one desired skin, the other may be required to buy all of them to get it.

Unless players make their disgust heard this is only a step to worse practices. So this is one of many points where the community has to say "NO". If you keep people down with claims you posted, you are ony hurting yourself in the future.

Truth ✊

@Kheldorn.5123 said:

@pah.4931 said:Would everyone have rather them not launch mount skins at all? They never ONCE advertised PoF with mount skins as if that was included content. You, the player, do not DESERVE mount skins. They, Anet, does not OWE you anything. Not a single person here bought PoF thinking they will get mount skins. (If I'm wrong, please point me to where Anet said PoF comes with mount skins).

Had they not implemented mount skins at all, your life would not be any different than if you just don't buy mount skins right now.

Black Lion Chests are FAR worse than these licences. This new system is not some nefarious breach in contract between Anet and its playerbase.

You are not a victim.

This is no worse (and it's actually better because you can't get dupes) than any digital trading card game ever made.

Finally, I bet a good amount of people actually enjoy this type of "lottery".

I know what people want. I don't care. Anet is a company and if they have data strongly suggesting that selling skins this way will make them more money then I think, as a company that wants to grow and pay salaries (which is good for those families and the economy), they are morally obligated to sell skins this way. You are a consenting consumer when you buy these boxes. There is no trickery.

Why would Anet, as a company, refuse more profits?? (remember, what they are doing is legal and within their rights and takes advantage of no one)

I think all those who are upset need to pretend they own a business. It's hard. Laying off people is even harder (we've had several rounds at the company I work). If they could have prevented that, don't you think they should do ANYTHING (legal) they can in order to keep their employees safe and happy???? Seriously. Its y'all who have no hearts, not Anet.

@pah.4931 said:

@Kheldorn.5123 said:

@pah.4931 said:Would everyone have rather them not launch mount skins at all? They never ONCE advertised PoF with mount skins as if that was included content. You, the player, do not DESERVE mount skins. They, Anet, does not OWE you anything. Not a single person here bought PoF thinking they will get mount skins. (If I'm wrong, please point me to where Anet said PoF comes with mount skins).

Had they not implemented mount skins at all, your life would not be any different than if you just don't buy mount skins right now.

Black Lion Chests are FAR worse than these licences. This new system is not some nefarious breach in contract between Anet and its playerbase.

You are not a victim.

This is no worse (and it's actually better because you can't get dupes) than any digital trading card game ever made.

Finally, I bet a good amount of people actually enjoy this type of "lottery".

Anet has survived and thrived for many years without pushing gambling on it's playerbase.

We've been more than happy to buy premium content (buy, not gamble for) to keep both the company and game alive for years.

in 2012 yes, 2017 not so much anymore. Massive inflation with all sorts of skins, over priced bundles flying around and permanent upgrades and convenience items never go on sale any more.

@Kheldorn.5123 said:

@pah.4931 said:

@Gerrand.3085 said:Much squirreling.

If you can name any western mmos which have worse cash stores then GW2 please name them so we can debate. And don't throw in those empty platitudes that we should excuse the actions of corporations because they treat their devs badly.

I was trying to name bigger name games. There are THOUSANDS of smaller MMOs with far far far worse cash shops (every mobile game ever made?). And "different business model" isn't an excuse to have a cash shop AND a sub.

@Oglaf.1074 said:

@pah.4931 said:

@Kheldorn.5123 said:

@pah.4931 said:Would everyone have rather them not launch mount skins at all? They never ONCE advertised PoF with mount skins as if that was included content. You, the player, do not DESERVE mount skins. They, Anet, does not OWE you anything. Not a single person here bought PoF thinking they will get mount skins. (If I'm wrong, please point me to where Anet said PoF comes with mount skins).

Had they not implemented mount skins at all, your life would not be any different than if you just don't buy mount skins right now.

Black Lion Chests are FAR worse than these licences. This new system is not some nefarious breach in contract between Anet and its playerbase.

You are not a victim.

This is no worse (and it's actually better because you can't get dupes) than any digital trading card game ever made.

Finally, I bet a good amount of people actually enjoy this type of "lottery".

You have no idea what Anet's financials are. Sorry.

Also, Anet isn't completely independent. They answer to a higher payer (most companies do). And many times, if you aren't growing, you're dying. Business is a hard world.

Are you telling me that if you were the president of a company and you had a choice to make 100,000 in profits or 300,000 in profits, both within legal means, you would choose to make less money?? You know what they call that? A bad (and fired) president.