Some constructive feedback about Unhindered Combatant change. — Guild Wars 2 Forums

Some constructive feedback about Unhindered Combatant change.

AegisRunestone.8672AegisRunestone.8672 Member ✭✭✭
edited November 8, 2017 in Thief

@Karl McLain.5604 and Anet devs: I apologize for pinging you so much, but I felt my most recent post was rude. Thieves everywhere are very upset about the change to Unhindered Combatant. This outrage is at the same level as when Steal was changed to only work when the thief had a target. That change was made years ago, and the outrage was such that a patch the following day or earlier, reversed the change, saying it was a "bug." It's quite possible you guys may have to revert the change or tweak it.

However, I have some things I'd like to know first. Communication is VERY important, so don't be afraid. I will not rip you apart. looks at other thief players And no one else will. I cannot speak for all thieves for my questions, feedback, and suggestions, however.

First, I'd like to thank you that Exhaustion does NOT stack upon removing multiple conditions listed on Unhindered Combatant. I greatly appreciate that.

Second, here's my questions:

1) What was the reasoning behind the change to Unhindered Combatant?
2) If it was meant for competitive changes, why do PvE Daredevils have to take the blow, too?

Third, I have some feedback to give about how the change has affected me in PvE. I will say it hasn't made a huge impact on my playstyle. However, during intense battles with plenty of chill/immobilize/cripple mobs, this can be deadly. I have died due to this change and it's making the game less enjoyable. I don't play PvP or WvW unless I need dailies (though, I'm going to need to do lots of PvP/WvW dailies now since I'm making a Legendary), so I don't know the effects there.

Another thing to note, there is also a bug with Daredevil and/or Trickery thieves when dismounting. Three initiative and the third endurance bar is emptied upon dismounting in any way shape or form. I recommend getting someone to fix this bug ASAP as it cripples PvE daredevils and trickery thieves.

Fourth, I have some suggestions for re-tweaking the nerf if it must remain. Remember, Anet's policy is "play the way you want to." I've always interpreted that with "and be successful at it." All builds should be viable, and I know that's probably difficult for the dev team considering all the traitlines, the two elite specs per class of 9 classes. So, here are my suggestions:
1) (Required) Remove Exhaustion from PvE. It's not needed there because PvE has no competitive nature (that is, if Exhaustion was the reason for being added).
2) (Option 1) Exhaustion gives -50% endurance regen instead of -100%. This still debuffs the ability to 'spam' Dash in the competitive areas, and does not punish the Daredevil as much.
3) (Option 2) Add a 4 second Internal Cooldown for the removal of Chilled, Crippled, and Immobilized when using Dash.
4) (Option 3) Unhindered Combatant has a 4 second cooldown entirely, but Dash still happens when dodging.

NOTE: Options 1, 2, and 3 can't all be added/changed together. Please pick one.

I'm no master of balancing, but I implore you to talk to us, communicate with us, and listen to us. Silence creates fear in the players that the devs aren't listening. Fear is a primary emotion, which leads to a secondary emotion: anger. I know you can't make promises and you must word your posts carefully, but at least talk to us.

As for everyone else, pitch in your feedback, too, but keep it civilized, do not flame the devs, and stay calm. Rage is what keeps the devs from talking to us, if we want that communication, we need to calm down.

Tagged:
<13

Comments

  • Azure The Heartless.3261Azure The Heartless.3261 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited November 8, 2017

    This is now the only class in the game that can be punished by use of a basic mechanic when affected by a handful of common conditions by nature of design, whether or not it was used properly, and it is both one of the most fragile classes and intended to be the most mobile.

    If the escape potential for thieves is too high, maybe it would behoove the devs to focus on allowing them options to be capable brawlers instead of making their only viable option fragile, but speedy, then nerfing their speed from the ground up.
    I'm not going to stay near a fight if I am outnumbered and do not have the vitality or defense options to survive, regardless of what class I am on.
    There's several other ways this could have been handled, if it was a problem at all.

    Bandit's defense nerf was also unnecessary, both of them in tandem seems maliciously destructive.

    And I'm not playing deadeye. I don't want to. It's not filling the niche that the thieves needed. (Brawler). I will play something else.

    [Charr Noises]
    [Plays every class]
    [JUST GIT EVEN GUDDER ITS FINE]

  • Vegeta.2563Vegeta.2563 Member ✭✭✭

    @Karl McLain.5604 said:
    1) What was the reasoning behind the change to Unhindered Combatant?
    "One important balance change in this update is the change to Unhindered Combatant. While thieves, and by extension daredevils, are intended to be slippery combatants, the escape potential for this trait was a little too high."
    Unhindered Combatant has long been dominant in multiple game-types. It represents a longer distance movement option, condition-break, and swiftness generator. We like these things.
    The issue, however, is that there is almost no 'counter' play to the functionality... in that neither players nor designers have a way to whittle down the thief's defensive capabilities short of one-shotting them in a time where there are no evade frames occurring. We want the thief to remain incredibly mobile, but need to introduce some soft-counters so that there are methods to hinder the super-defensive nature of UC builds. We'll keep watch of Exhaustion's interactions with Unhindered Combatant and will adjust as necessary.

    2) If it was meant for competitive changes, why do PvE Daredevils have to take the blow, too?
    First off: As a rule we don't split skill and trait functionality changes ("functionality" being the keyword here). There are some things that we are okay with splitting such as damage, condition duration/stacks, resource cost, etc. However we don't want to make skills which apply different buffs or have different cast times or number of hits based on game mode. This rule is in place to preserve skill cohesion and prevent confusion when switching game modes. It's not a rule that we plan on changing.

    Secondarily: Its condition-removal is built-in and is inseparable from the dodge-mechanic so long as you have the trait equipped. It's feasibly possible to 'remove' the trait and return you to a 'normal' dodge, but consistency is also important in that your dodge button should pretty much always do the same thing.

    -SnB

    How are endurance regeneration foods affected by this change? Are they nulled until the 4 seconds are up and start working again?

  • Volrath.1473Volrath.1473 Member ✭✭✭

    @Karl McLain.5604 said:
    We'll keep watch of Exhaustion's interactions with Unhindered Combatant and will adjust as necessary.

    humm... how will you do that if no one in perfect mental conditions will pick up this trait unless it's by accident?

    @Elrond.9486 said:
    The saddest part of it all is that from a mechanical, action point of view, GW2 has the best PvP combat in any of the big MMOs. And they completely waste it with the trash balance and by basically ignoring it for months and months.

  • Why is the duration of exhaustion the same for crippled, chilled and immobilize? Shouln't the ones with the greater effect be the ones that give more exhaustion? Like 2s for crippled, 3s for chilled, 4s for immobilize.

  • AikijinX.6258AikijinX.6258 Member ✭✭✭

    You can still use the trait "Don't stop"

    While you have swiftness, movement-impairing conditions have reduced duration. When you gain swiftness, lose a movement-impairing condition.

    Chilled Condition Removed
    Crippled Condition Removed
    Immobile Condition Removed
    Miscellaneous effect Conditions Removed: 1
    Radius. Duration Decreased: 80%

    85% of the time this bipasses the exhaustion debuff. So it is still possible to use, for all you acro staff, and sword Drd user's out there, However the Swiftness change: Gain swiftness upon a full dodge roll is beyond me. Which directly nerfs the "Don't Stop" trait, but by a minuscule amount.

  • @omgdracula.6345 said:
    An easy fix would be to reduce the duration of exhaustion and enduracne regen penalization by a certain amount per condition removed. That way using it to clear only 1 still hits but using it to its fullest potential is not punishing.

    That is a good idea, alot better than the current state for sure. Another idea could be simply giving it a fair ICD on the condi removal part. Anything but the current 4 second exhaustion, it may work for d/p thieves in PVP but it hits really, really hard in WvW scenarios.

    D E R P [dBa] [frog] Piken Square EU

  • Elxdark.9702Elxdark.9702 Member ✭✭✭

    @omgdracula.6345 said:

    @Karl McLain.5604 said:
    1) What was the reasoning behind the change to Unhindered Combatant?
    "One important balance change in this update is the change to Unhindered Combatant. While thieves, and by extension daredevils, are intended to be slippery combatants, the escape potential for this trait was a little too high."
    Unhindered Combatant has long been dominant in multiple game-types. It represents a longer distance movement option, condition-break, and swiftness generator. We like these things.
    The issue, however, is that there is almost no 'counter' play to the functionality... in that neither players nor designers have a way to whittle down the thief's defensive capabilities short of one-shotting them in a time where there are no evade frames occurring. We want the thief to remain incredibly mobile, but need to introduce some soft-counters so that there are methods to hinder the super-defensive nature of UC builds. We'll keep watch of Exhaustion's interactions with Unhindered Combatant and will adjust as necessary.

    2) If it was meant for competitive changes, why do PvE Daredevils have to take the blow, too?
    First off: As a rule we don't split skill and trait functionality changes ("functionality" being the keyword here). There are some things that we are okay with splitting such as damage, condition duration/stacks, resource cost, etc. However we don't want to make skills which apply different buffs or have different cast times or number of hits based on game mode. This rule is in place to preserve skill cohesion and prevent confusion when switching game modes. It's not a rule that we plan on changing.

    Secondarily: Its condition-removal is built-in and is inseparable from the dodge-mechanic so long as you have the trait equipped. It's feasibly possible to 'remove' the trait and return you to a 'normal' dodge, but consistency is also important in that your dodge button should pretty much always do the same thing.

    -SnB

    This makes no sense though. You say that it has no counter play, but thieves themselves needed it to have counter play against condition spam that exists in PvP. Like others have mentioned if we could be better at brawling than it would be okay but we aren't. Dash was part of thief survivability which is already poor at best.

    Thieves are very feast or famine. If we do not spike our target down our next best solution is to disengage and the reengage.

    You essentially killed this trait and made it probably the weakest out of grandmaster traits. Thieves now have two traits that one was best for condi builds and the other was always almost good enough and now is great as a 10% damage buff and potential combos.

    An easy fix would be to reduce the duration of exhaustion and enduracne regen penalization by a certain amount per condition removed. That way using it to clear only 1 still hits but using it to its fullest potential is not punishing.

    stop with the overreact act, jesus.
    Every good thief i know has said me that the nerf while it's annoying it doesn't change anything, at least in PvP you should not be affected by this at all unless you're bad which I think a lot of thieves started to realize.

    Trash NA thief HITZER
    twitch

  • @Skada.1362 said:

    @omgdracula.6345 said:
    An easy fix would be to reduce the duration of exhaustion and enduracne regen penalization by a certain amount per condition removed. That way using it to clear only 1 still hits but using it to its fullest potential is not punishing.

    That is a good idea, alot better than the current state for sure. Another idea could be simply giving it a fair ICD on the condi removal part. Anything but the current 4 second exhaustion, it may work for d/p thieves in PVP but it hits really, really hard in WvW scenarios.

    Thanks. I think it needs to keep the condi removal and at least it doesn't stack exhaustion but it is very penalizing on initial use.

  • @Elxdark.9702 said:

    stop with the overreact act, jesus.
    Every good thief i know has said me that the nerf while it's annoying it doesn't change anything, at least in PvP you should not be affected by this at all unless you're bad which I think a lot of thieves started to realize.

    That isn't really overreacting I am pretty much pointing out that Karl didn't really give any form of good reasoning. You can't sit there and deny that condi spam is not an issue. Dash was the thief counterplay to condi spam which Anet effectively nerfed for no real tangible reason. I am sure that in PvP it isn't a huge difference but like many have said it does affect PvE as well. No reason for the nerf should have crossed lines into pve.

  • Elxdark.9702Elxdark.9702 Member ✭✭✭
    edited November 9, 2017

    @omgdracula.6345 said:

    @Elxdark.9702 said:

    stop with the overreact act, jesus.
    Every good thief i know has said me that the nerf while it's annoying it doesn't change anything, at least in PvP you should not be affected by this at all unless you're bad which I think a lot of thieves started to realize.

    That isn't really overreacting I am pretty much pointing out that Karl didn't really give any form of good reasoning. You can't sit there and deny that condi spam is not an issue. Dash was the thief counterplay to condi spam which Anet effectively nerfed for no real tangible reason. I am sure that in PvP it isn't a huge difference but like many have said it does affect PvE as well. No reason for the nerf should have crossed lines into pve.

    He did, at least in pvp you need to check your conditions and not spam your dodge button.
    They want to keep thief mobility so they will nerf the way thief gets it and not the mobility itself, I disagree because it would have been much easier to just reduce the distance a bit and that's it but Anet loves to complicate things.
    Maybe in PvE/WvW is worse but I think they made this nerf for pvp and the funny thing is that the other game modes were more affected in the end lol.

    Trash NA thief HITZER
    twitch

  • @Elxdark.9702 said:

    @omgdracula.6345 said:

    @Elxdark.9702 said:

    stop with the overreact act, jesus.
    Every good thief i know has said me that the nerf while it's annoying it doesn't change anything, at least in PvP you should not be affected by this at all unless you're bad which I think a lot of thieves started to realize.

    That isn't really overreacting I am pretty much pointing out that Karl didn't really give any form of good reasoning. You can't sit there and deny that condi spam is not an issue. Dash was the thief counterplay to condi spam which Anet effectively nerfed for no real tangible reason. I am sure that in PvP it isn't a huge difference but like many have said it does affect PvE as well. No reason for the nerf should have crossed lines into pve.

    He did, at least in pvp you need to check your conditions and not spam your dodge button.
    They want to keep thief mobility so they will nerf the way thief gets it and not the mobility itself, I disagree because it would have been much easier to just reduce the distance a bit and that's it but Anet loves to complicate things.
    Maybe in PvE/WvW is worse but I think they made this nerf for pvp and the funny thing is that the other game modes were more affected in the end lol.

    You somewhat have to check since UC only removes the 3. So you do and you don't. But I agree on your last point. Also the swiftness being applied at the end is odd because it doesn't really do anything IMHO. Except if you are out of combat I guess.

  • Maugetarr.6823Maugetarr.6823 Member ✭✭✭

    @Karl McLain.5604 said:
    1) What was the reasoning behind the change to Unhindered Combatant?
    "One important balance change in this update is the change to Unhindered Combatant. While thieves, and by extension daredevils, are intended to be slippery combatants, the escape potential for this trait was a little too high."
    Unhindered Combatant has long been dominant in multiple game-types. It represents a longer distance movement option, condition-break, and swiftness generator. We like these things.
    The issue, however, is that there is almost no 'counter' play to the functionality... in that neither players nor designers have a way to whittle down the thief's defensive capabilities short of one-shotting them in a time where there are no evade frames occurring. We want the thief to remain incredibly mobile, but need to introduce some soft-counters so that there are methods to hinder the super-defensive nature of UC builds. We'll keep watch of Exhaustion's interactions with Unhindered Combatant and will adjust as necessary.

    2) If it was meant for competitive changes, why do PvE Daredevils have to take the blow, too?
    First off: As a rule we don't split skill and trait functionality changes ("functionality" being the keyword here). There are some things that we are okay with splitting such as damage, condition duration/stacks, resource cost, etc. However we don't want to make skills which apply different buffs or have different cast times or number of hits based on game mode. This rule is in place to preserve skill cohesion and prevent confusion when switching game modes. It's not a rule that we plan on changing.

    Secondarily: Its condition-removal is built-in and is inseparable from the dodge-mechanic so long as you have the trait equipped. It's feasibly possible to 'remove' the trait and return you to a 'normal' dodge, but consistency is also important in that your dodge button should pretty much always do the same thing.

    -SnB

    Thanks for popping in for the explanation. Agree or disagree, it's nice to hear from you and read through the reasoning and thought processes.

  • Faxi.3059Faxi.3059 Member ✭✭
    edited November 9, 2017

    @AikijinX.6258 said:
    You can still use the trait "Don't stop"

    While you have swiftness, movement-impairing conditions have reduced duration. When you gain swiftness, lose a movement-impairing condition.

    Chilled Condition Removed
    Crippled Condition Removed
    Immobile Condition Removed
    Miscellaneous effect Conditions Removed: 1
    Radius. Duration Decreased: 80%

    85% of the time this bipasses the exhaustion debuff. So it is still possible to use, for all you acro staff, and sword Drd user's out there, However the Swiftness change: Gain swiftness upon a full dodge roll is beyond me. Which directly nerfs the "Don't Stop" trait, but by a minuscule amount.

    this is already broken...
    we can't get swiftness for immobile.. after this patch
    'Expeditious Dodger: Swiftness granted by this trait will now occur at the end of the dodge.'
    core Nerfed
    DD Nerfed
    DE Nerfed

  • @Elxdark.9702 said:

    @omgdracula.6345 said:

    @Karl McLain.5604 said:
    1) What was the reasoning behind the change to Unhindered Combatant?
    "One important balance change in this update is the change to Unhindered Combatant. While thieves, and by extension daredevils, are intended to be slippery combatants, the escape potential for this trait was a little too high."
    Unhindered Combatant has long been dominant in multiple game-types. It represents a longer distance movement option, condition-break, and swiftness generator. We like these things.
    The issue, however, is that there is almost no 'counter' play to the functionality... in that neither players nor designers have a way to whittle down the thief's defensive capabilities short of one-shotting them in a time where there are no evade frames occurring. We want the thief to remain incredibly mobile, but need to introduce some soft-counters so that there are methods to hinder the super-defensive nature of UC builds. We'll keep watch of Exhaustion's interactions with Unhindered Combatant and will adjust as necessary.

    2) If it was meant for competitive changes, why do PvE Daredevils have to take the blow, too?
    First off: As a rule we don't split skill and trait functionality changes ("functionality" being the keyword here). There are some things that we are okay with splitting such as damage, condition duration/stacks, resource cost, etc. However we don't want to make skills which apply different buffs or have different cast times or number of hits based on game mode. This rule is in place to preserve skill cohesion and prevent confusion when switching game modes. It's not a rule that we plan on changing.

    Secondarily: Its condition-removal is built-in and is inseparable from the dodge-mechanic so long as you have the trait equipped. It's feasibly possible to 'remove' the trait and return you to a 'normal' dodge, but consistency is also important in that your dodge button should pretty much always do the same thing.

    -SnB

    This makes no sense though. You say that it has no counter play, but thieves themselves needed it to have counter play against condition spam that exists in PvP. Like others have mentioned if we could be better at brawling than it would be okay but we aren't. Dash was part of thief survivability which is already poor at best.

    Thieves are very feast or famine. If we do not spike our target down our next best solution is to disengage and the reengage.

    You essentially killed this trait and made it probably the weakest out of grandmaster traits. Thieves now have two traits that one was best for condi builds and the other was always almost good enough and now is great as a 10% damage buff and potential combos.

    An easy fix would be to reduce the duration of exhaustion and enduracne regen penalization by a certain amount per condition removed. That way using it to clear only 1 still hits but using it to its fullest potential is not punishing.

    stop with the overreact act, jesus.
    Every good thief i know has said me that the nerf while it's annoying it doesn't change anything, at least in PvP you should not be affected by this at all unless you're bad which I think a lot of thieves started to realize.

    ^This. Reading the majority of the post here give me the same feeling. Its like no thief here played the class before 23th june 2015.. Spam condi is there no doubt, but that doesn't mean UC wasn't OP.
    @Karl McLain.5604 hope your balance team will also start to tone down the condi spamfest too. Cheers for you reply on the forum tho.

  • Azure The Heartless.3261Azure The Heartless.3261 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited November 9, 2017

    @Karl McLain.5604 said:
    1) What was the reasoning behind the change to Unhindered Combatant?
    "One important balance change in this update is the change to Unhindered Combatant. While thieves, and by extension daredevils, are intended to be slippery combatants, the escape potential for this trait was a little too high."
    Unhindered Combatant has long been dominant in multiple game-types. It represents a longer distance movement option, condition-break, and swiftness generator. We like these things.
    The issue, however, is that there is almost no 'counter' play to the functionality... in that neither players nor designers have a way to whittle down the thief's defensive capabilities short of one-shotting them in a time where there are no evade frames occurring. We want the thief to remain incredibly mobile, but need to introduce some soft-counters so that there are methods to hinder the super-defensive nature of UC builds. We'll keep watch of Exhaustion's interactions with Unhindered Combatant and will adjust as necessary.

    2) If it was meant for competitive changes, why do PvE Daredevils have to take the blow, too?
    First off: As a rule we don't split skill and trait functionality changes ("functionality" being the keyword here). There are some things that we are okay with splitting such as damage, condition duration/stacks, resource cost, etc. However we don't want to make skills which apply different buffs or have different cast times or number of hits based on game mode. This rule is in place to preserve skill cohesion and prevent confusion when switching game modes. It's not a rule that we plan on changing.

    Secondarily: Its condition-removal is built-in and is inseparable from the dodge-mechanic so long as you have the trait equipped. It's feasibly possible to 'remove' the trait and return you to a 'normal' dodge, but consistency is also important in that your dodge button should pretty much always do the same thing.

    -SnB

    Appreciate the reply, but ugh.

    I hate it but fine, I understand classes can't just be -immune- to three condis because of a trait. Guess I'll have to adapt to endurance being turned off by cripple. I still feel like there are several ways to approach this better from giving unhindered an ICD on removing condis to halving endurance regen, but I'll deal with it.

    [Charr Noises]
    [Plays every class]
    [JUST GIT EVEN GUDDER ITS FINE]

  • And that is the Problem because now thief is even worser now in bigger battles and it was one of the worst class even before patch, so that it was "normal" that they get kicked from squad.
    Yes in 1vs1 it isn't that big impact and also in Spvp it's okay. But in WvWvW where u have big battles and a kitten of condi spam this trait has become a RNG Shutdown for you.

  • Cynz.9437Cynz.9437 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited November 9, 2017

    @Karl McLain.5604 said:
    1) What was the reasoning behind the change to Unhindered Combatant?
    "One important balance change in this update is the change to Unhindered Combatant. While thieves, and by extension daredevils, are intended to be slippery combatants, the escape potential for this trait was a little too high."
    Unhindered Combatant has long been dominant in multiple game-types. It represents a longer distance movement option, condition-break, and swiftness generator. We like these things.
    The issue, however, is that there is almost no 'counter' play to the functionality... in that neither players nor designers have a way to whittle down the thief's defensive capabilities short of one-shotting them in a time where there are no evade frames occurring. We want the thief to remain incredibly mobile, but need to introduce some soft-counters so that there are methods to hinder the super-defensive nature of UC builds. We'll keep watch of Exhaustion's interactions with Unhindered Combatant and will adjust as necessary.

    2) If it was meant for competitive changes, why do PvE Daredevils have to take the blow, too?
    First off: As a rule we don't split skill and trait functionality changes ("functionality" being the keyword here). There are some things that we are okay with splitting such as damage, condition duration/stacks, resource cost, etc. However we don't want to make skills which apply different buffs or have different cast times or number of hits based on game mode. This rule is in place to preserve skill cohesion and prevent confusion when switching game modes. It's not a rule that we plan on changing.

    Secondarily: Its condition-removal is built-in and is inseparable from the dodge-mechanic so long as you have the trait equipped. It's feasibly possible to 'remove' the trait and return you to a 'normal' dodge, but consistency is also important in that your dodge button should pretty much always do the same thing.

    -SnB

    Why does no other class gets this kind of treatment then? I mean chop off the head kind of treatment for headache.
    There are plenty of skills that do too much/have no/barely any counterplay and didn't see any meaningful changes. Please justify that.

    GW is P2Win. We are always lied to.

  • @Jinks.2057 said:

    Thank you for replying @Karl McLain.5604

    First I enjoy and support the idea of counterplay in games. Bravo!

    Problem is you have added counterplay to thief yet have not given thief counterplay to the rest of the game. This last patch was nerfs across the board for thieves and more power creep for the rest of the game. At this time no class is more hard countered than thief, and you've just nerfed them without compensation (to either their own skills/traits or in nerfs to other classes).

    This is the problem with the patch. Your team decided that UC is too strong after being fine for 2 years, but Scourge, Firebrand, etc are perfectly healthy for the game?!!? I'm sorry but you see those other classes being stacked in games and having seriously imbalanced impact on games.

    Again I thank you for the reply, I just feel this nerf wasn't done out of necessity......

    My god two years? Has it really been that long? It's like looking in a mirror. Tell me Johnny do you play baseball?

  • Turk.5460Turk.5460 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited November 9, 2017

    @AikijinX.6258 said:
    However the Swiftness change: Gain swiftness upon a full dodge roll is beyond me. Which directly nerfs the "Don't Stop" trait, but by a minuscule amount.

    They did this to ensure that the Exhaustion will happen if you dodge out of a soft-cc. Since the Swiftness previously activated before the condition clear, keeping it in it's previous state while having Don't Stop traited would have avoided Exhaustion if only one soft-cc was affecting you.

    Fort Aspenwood
    Jekkies

  • OriOri.8724OriOri.8724 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @omgdracula.6345 said:

    @Elxdark.9702 said:

    stop with the overreact act, jesus.
    Every good thief i know has said me that the nerf while it's annoying it doesn't change anything, at least in PvP you should not be affected by this at all unless you're bad which I think a lot of thieves started to realize.

    That isn't really overreacting I am pretty much pointing out that Karl didn't really give any form of good reasoning. You can't sit there and deny that condi spam is not an issue. Dash was the thief counterplay to condi spam which Anet effectively nerfed for no real tangible reason. I am sure that in PvP it isn't a huge difference but like many have said it does affect PvE as well. No reason for the nerf should have crossed lines into pve.

    Correction. Pre-nerf Dash was DD's way to be completely immune to movement impairing conditions due to DD's extra endurance and ridiculous endurance regen.

    If it was a general condi cleanse it actually would have been almost fine, but still a bit too powerful. That way you wouldn't be guaranteed to cleanse a movement impairing condition, and other players would actually have a chance at pinning you down. As it was, it was much too powerful.

    Eyyyy I unlocked signatures

  • BlaqueFyre.5678BlaqueFyre.5678 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Karl McLain.5604

    How come this style of “balancing” of adding punishment to basic gameplay mechanics be added across the board? No other class gets punished for using a trait or ability, and it’s not like this is the only trait that modifies/functions this same way, Rangers have a trait to remove conditions when using Dodge it has ICD so why couldn’t an ICD be added to the condition Removal aspect and separate the Condi cleanse from the modified Dodge? Mesmers have a trait that’s stun Breaks on Dodge so why don’t they get punished for breaking hard CC? Why not punish players for using Invulnerability skills so they don’t receive healing while they are untouchable?

    Why punish one class by locking them out of basic gameplay design/mechanics shared by all classes? Why not make all classes get punished for certain Traits/Skill usage?

  • What is funny...they nerf UC but adding a class like Mirage which has even more UC Dodge Styl + Insane Condi output xD Sry Karl but that is laughable.

  • I have flashback of the Ricochet removal.

    PTSD...

    givebackRicochet

  • Lyger.5429Lyger.5429 Member ✭✭✭

    @Karl McLain.5604 said:
    1) What was the reasoning behind the change to Unhindered Combatant?
    "One important balance change in this update is the change to Unhindered Combatant. While thieves, and by extension daredevils, are intended to be slippery combatants, the escape potential for this trait was a little too high."
    Unhindered Combatant has long been dominant in multiple game-types. It represents a longer distance movement option, condition-break, and swiftness generator. We like these things.
    The issue, however, is that there is almost no 'counter' play to the functionality... in that neither players nor designers have a way to whittle down the thief's defensive capabilities short of one-shotting them in a time where there are no evade frames occurring. We want the thief to remain incredibly mobile, but need to introduce some soft-counters so that there are methods to hinder the super-defensive nature of UC builds. We'll keep watch of Exhaustion's interactions with Unhindered Combatant and will adjust as necessary.

    2) If it was meant for competitive changes, why do PvE Daredevils have to take the blow, too?
    First off: As a rule we don't split skill and trait functionality changes ("functionality" being the keyword here). There are some things that we are okay with splitting such as damage, condition duration/stacks, resource cost, etc. However we don't want to make skills which apply different buffs or have different cast times or number of hits based on game mode. This rule is in place to preserve skill cohesion and prevent confusion when switching game modes. It's not a rule that we plan on changing.

    Secondarily: Its condition-removal is built-in and is inseparable from the dodge-mechanic so long as you have the trait equipped. It's feasibly possible to 'remove' the trait and return you to a 'normal' dodge, but consistency is also important in that your dodge button should pretty much always do the same thing.

    -SnB

    Thanks for the explanation Karl, but why was nothing done to make deadeye more of a competitive pick, outside of the might stacking changes?

  • Crinn.7864Crinn.7864 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited November 10, 2017

    @Turk.5460 said:

    @OriOri.8724 said:

    @omgdracula.6345 said:

    @Elxdark.9702 said:

    stop with the overreact act, jesus.
    Every good thief i know has said me that the nerf while it's annoying it doesn't change anything, at least in PvP you should not be affected by this at all unless you're bad which I think a lot of thieves started to realize.

    That isn't really overreacting I am pretty much pointing out that Karl didn't really give any form of good reasoning. You can't sit there and deny that condi spam is not an issue. Dash was the thief counterplay to condi spam which Anet effectively nerfed for no real tangible reason. I am sure that in PvP it isn't a huge difference but like many have said it does affect PvE as well. No reason for the nerf should have crossed lines into pve.

    Correction. Pre-nerf Dash was DD's way to be completely immune to movement impairing conditions due to DD's extra endurance and ridiculous endurance regen.

    If it was a general condi cleanse it actually would have been almost fine, but still a bit too powerful. That way you wouldn't be guaranteed to cleanse a movement impairing condition, and other players would actually have a chance at pinning you down. As it was, it was much too powerful.

    You just don't get it. Pinning a DD down isn't some minor inconvenience like it is for most other professions that have a plethora of defenses and damage mitigation built into their kit. DD's don't have that, they have a single short block, a single long-cooldown shadowstep, and, if traited - evasion for 2 seconds at 50% hp. And you can't even compare something like spamming Disabling Shot to other profession's weapon skills.

    Cripple and Chills doesn't stop the thief from dodging, stealthing, or using teleports. Being crippled or chilled has little impact on a thief's survivability because neither of those conditions stop the thief from using it's escape/avoidance tools. Immobilize is the only major threat to a thief since immobilize does prevent dodging, but immobilize is also a very rare condition with Ranger being the only class with easy access to it.

    That isn't to say that cripples and chill have no impact on a thief, but those two conditions are hardly a death sentence like some are making it out to be.

    Sanity is for the weak minded
    YouTube

  • Zacchary.6183Zacchary.6183 Member ✭✭✭

    @Saku Joe.2857 said:

    @Elxdark.9702 said:

    @omgdracula.6345 said:

    @Karl McLain.5604 said:
    1) What was the reasoning behind the change to Unhindered Combatant?
    "One important balance change in this update is the change to Unhindered Combatant. While thieves, and by extension daredevils, are intended to be slippery combatants, the escape potential for this trait was a little too high."
    Unhindered Combatant has long been dominant in multiple game-types. It represents a longer distance movement option, condition-break, and swiftness generator. We like these things.
    The issue, however, is that there is almost no 'counter' play to the functionality... in that neither players nor designers have a way to whittle down the thief's defensive capabilities short of one-shotting them in a time where there are no evade frames occurring. We want the thief to remain incredibly mobile, but need to introduce some soft-counters so that there are methods to hinder the super-defensive nature of UC builds. We'll keep watch of Exhaustion's interactions with Unhindered Combatant and will adjust as necessary.

    2) If it was meant for competitive changes, why do PvE Daredevils have to take the blow, too?
    First off: As a rule we don't split skill and trait functionality changes ("functionality" being the keyword here). There are some things that we are okay with splitting such as damage, condition duration/stacks, resource cost, etc. However we don't want to make skills which apply different buffs or have different cast times or number of hits based on game mode. This rule is in place to preserve skill cohesion and prevent confusion when switching game modes. It's not a rule that we plan on changing.

    Secondarily: Its condition-removal is built-in and is inseparable from the dodge-mechanic so long as you have the trait equipped. It's feasibly possible to 'remove' the trait and return you to a 'normal' dodge, but consistency is also important in that your dodge button should pretty much always do the same thing.

    -SnB

    This makes no sense though. You say that it has no counter play, but thieves themselves needed it to have counter play against condition spam that exists in PvP. Like others have mentioned if we could be better at brawling than it would be okay but we aren't. Dash was part of thief survivability which is already poor at best.

    Thieves are very feast or famine. If we do not spike our target down our next best solution is to disengage and the reengage.

    You essentially killed this trait and made it probably the weakest out of grandmaster traits. Thieves now have two traits that one was best for condi builds and the other was always almost good enough and now is great as a 10% damage buff and potential combos.

    An easy fix would be to reduce the duration of exhaustion and enduracne regen penalization by a certain amount per condition removed. That way using it to clear only 1 still hits but using it to its fullest potential is not punishing.

    stop with the overreact act, jesus.
    Every good thief i know has said me that the nerf while it's annoying it doesn't change anything, at least in PvP you should not be affected by this at all unless you're bad which I think a lot of thieves started to realize.

    ^This. Reading the majority of the post here give me the same feeling. Its like no thief here played the class before 23th june 2015.. Spam condi is there no doubt, but that doesn't mean UC wasn't OP.
    @Karl McLain.5604 hope your balance team will also start to tone down the condi spamfest too. Cheers for you reply on the forum tho.

    I can vouch for this.

    A good player can succeed with whatever is meta. A great player can succeed with whatever they want.
    [Vial of Salt]
    Thief's Forum Guild [Teef] is a guild with expansive knowledge of the Thief profession, willing to teach anyone willing to learn. Details in link.

  • Elxdark.9702Elxdark.9702 Member ✭✭✭

    @omgdracula.6345 said:

    @Elxdark.9702 said:

    @omgdracula.6345 said:

    @Elxdark.9702 said:

    stop with the overreact act, jesus.
    Every good thief i know has said me that the nerf while it's annoying it doesn't change anything, at least in PvP you should not be affected by this at all unless you're bad which I think a lot of thieves started to realize.

    That isn't really overreacting I am pretty much pointing out that Karl didn't really give any form of good reasoning. You can't sit there and deny that condi spam is not an issue. Dash was the thief counterplay to condi spam which Anet effectively nerfed for no real tangible reason. I am sure that in PvP it isn't a huge difference but like many have said it does affect PvE as well. No reason for the nerf should have crossed lines into pve.

    He did, at least in pvp you need to check your conditions and not spam your dodge button.
    They want to keep thief mobility so they will nerf the way thief gets it and not the mobility itself, I disagree because it would have been much easier to just reduce the distance a bit and that's it but Anet loves to complicate things.
    Maybe in PvE/WvW is worse but I think they made this nerf for pvp and the funny thing is that the other game modes were more affected in the end lol.

    You somewhat have to check since UC only removes the 3. So you do and you don't. But I agree on your last point. Also the swiftness being applied at the end is odd because it doesn't really do anything IMHO. Except if you are out of combat I guess.

    @Lyger.5429 said:

    @Karl McLain.5604 said:
    1) What was the reasoning behind the change to Unhindered Combatant?
    "One important balance change in this update is the change to Unhindered Combatant. While thieves, and by extension daredevils, are intended to be slippery combatants, the escape potential for this trait was a little too high."
    Unhindered Combatant has long been dominant in multiple game-types. It represents a longer distance movement option, condition-break, and swiftness generator. We like these things.
    The issue, however, is that there is almost no 'counter' play to the functionality... in that neither players nor designers have a way to whittle down the thief's defensive capabilities short of one-shotting them in a time where there are no evade frames occurring. We want the thief to remain incredibly mobile, but need to introduce some soft-counters so that there are methods to hinder the super-defensive nature of UC builds. We'll keep watch of Exhaustion's interactions with Unhindered Combatant and will adjust as necessary.

    2) If it was meant for competitive changes, why do PvE Daredevils have to take the blow, too?
    First off: As a rule we don't split skill and trait functionality changes ("functionality" being the keyword here). There are some things that we are okay with splitting such as damage, condition duration/stacks, resource cost, etc. However we don't want to make skills which apply different buffs or have different cast times or number of hits based on game mode. This rule is in place to preserve skill cohesion and prevent confusion when switching game modes. It's not a rule that we plan on changing.

    Secondarily: Its condition-removal is built-in and is inseparable from the dodge-mechanic so long as you have the trait equipped. It's feasibly possible to 'remove' the trait and return you to a 'normal' dodge, but consistency is also important in that your dodge button should pretty much always do the same thing.

    -SnB

    Thanks for the explanation Karl, but why was nothing done to make deadeye more of a competitive pick, outside of the might stacking changes?

    Dead.. what? we only have 1 elite spec bro.

    Trash NA thief HITZER
    twitch

  • Scenario: I'm in a fight and have one dodge left. I have cripple on me and don't want to dodge and thus be stuck without any endurance for the next 6 seconds ( 4 for the exhaustion and 2 for my endurance to refill enough to dodge) but then a warrior winds up with a big ol hammer stun, or a reaper executioner scythe ect. and what then? Eat it and get wrecked? Because if I go to dodge a big physical attack and happen to have a nearly ever present condition on me I get punished BIG TIME.....UC needing to be nerfed is debatable, the nerf it got is disgusting.

  • getalifeturd.8139getalifeturd.8139 Member ✭✭✭
    edited November 10, 2017

    Arenanet let us delete posts as well as editing them. You can't even balance players vs forums.

  • Unhindered Combatant has long been dominant in multiple game-types. It represents a longer distance movement option, condition-break, and swiftness generator. We like these things.

    Disclaimer: I have only reached a really really low level of Plat last season.

    What? Dominant compared to what? Other grandmaster traits? Are we seeing 2 or more thieves on one team in PvP now? I stopped PvPing for about a month, but unless the meta shifted, a +2 thief team comp doesn't really do that well. Are there not enough deadeyes? I personally don't think deadeyes do well against any other profession besides necros, and only with a p/p build.

    in PvE, I don't see how it is dominant at all. Maybe for berry farming.

    PvP? Well maybe if bounding dodger you know... didn't get nerfed. If you saw too many people migrating to Unhindered Combatant due to this nerf, maybe it's because the bounding dodger nerf was too big?

    WvW? Understandable. But if thieves are going to be complete kitten in zergs, I would expect them to be good at roaming and picking off stragglers.

    Yes, I personally think Unhindered Combat is slightly over the top (I would be OK with the removal of the -10% damage), but so are many other professions traits. Additionally, some classes has tons of blocks and invulnerability on top of a high health pool or armor. Clearly that's unfair because you can't counterplay invulnerability, right?

    There are many classes that can chain invulnerable/blocks or chain movement skills. By doing that, they can probably disengage any other profession besides thieves, but is that really a problem? In PvP, probably not because thief have a slightly worse team fight and 1v1 potential than most classes. In WvW, I agree though, that can be super annoying.

    And there are also skills that go through evades.
    Skills with area denial purposes: Line of Warding, Ring of Warding, Dragon's Maw, Unsteady Ground, Static Field, Slick Shoes, Spectral Wall, Temporal Curtain's cripple, and others. Even shadowstepping over it will cause you to still get CC'd or damaged after going through it.
    The pull skill for Guardian (the chain skill of Binding Blade) and Hunter's Verdict for Dragonhunter (the chain skill of Spear of Justice) are also unevadeable.

    So don't say there's no counterplay either.

    Tl;dr; Unhindered Combatant is slightly over the top, but this nerf basically reduces our ability to stay in fights by about 6 seconds.

  • Rezzet.3614Rezzet.3614 Member ✭✭✭

    The > @Fiddle Irk.9710 said:

    Scenario: I'm in a fight and have one dodge left. I have cripple on me and don't want to dodge and thus be stuck without any endurance for the next 6 seconds ( 4 for the exhaustion and 2 for my endurance to refill enough to dodge) but then a warrior winds up with a big ol hammer stun, or a reaper executioner scythe ect. and what then? Eat it and get wrecked? Because if I go to dodge a big physical attack and happen to have a nearly ever present condition on me I get punished BIG TIME.....UC needing to be nerfed is debatable, the nerf it got is disgusting.

    The nerf it got is fine it makes thief have to actually play like other professions, everyone else does precisely as you say if they use all their dodges recklessly, they eat a can of whoop thief shouldnt be an exception and all of you ignore the fact dd has 3 evades instead of two and can refill 4 evades in 1 to 2 seconds via utilities one of them being a condi cleanse

  • Sorry Rezzet, but NO other class get's a 4 second 100% reduction of endurance regeneration for using their dodge when they have cripple, chill or immobilize on them. And why on earth should a thief have to play like another profession, it's NOT another profession, it's a thief. We don't have automatic invulnerability, stability, blocks. We don't have crazy passive healing or even crazy active healing. We have stealth (and that's subject to an ever amassing revealing among other classes, which btw thieves have no access to) and evasion. Dodging big hit's and stuns is using it wisely. Not being able to use your dodge because you have a movement impairing condition is NOT skilled game play, not a matter of using your dodges recklessly.

  • Crinn.7864Crinn.7864 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Fiddle Irk.9710 said:
    Sorry Rezzet, but NO other class get's a 4 second 100% reduction of endurance regeneration for using their dodge when they have cripple, chill or immobilize on them. And why on earth should a thief have to play like another profession, it's NOT another profession, it's a thief. We don't have automatic invulnerability, stability, blocks. We don't have crazy passive healing or even crazy active healing. We have stealth (and that's subject to an ever amassing revealing among other classes, which btw thieves have no access to) and evasion. Dodging big hit's and stuns is using it wisely. Not being able to use your dodge because you have a movement impairing condition is NOT skilled game play, not a matter of using your dodges recklessly.

    You don't have passive defenses like other classes do because you have way more active defensives than other classes do. Thief at the plat+ level dies far less than any other class due to no other class being able to touch the thief. As Karl McLain said, the only realistic way to kill a good thief was a try and 1-bang them before they react, because once a thief reacts you have no chance of killing them.

    If the endurance redux is such a problem then just put on bound, it's a extra leap finisher and gives a 10% damage bonus so that you can clean up those +1's faster.

    Sanity is for the weak minded
    YouTube

  • getalifeturd.8139getalifeturd.8139 Member ✭✭✭
    edited November 13, 2017

    They nerfed feline grace (https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Feline_Grace) before making daredevil so that people would need to use daredevil to get their 3rd dodge again. Now they nerfed daredevil's unhindered combatant (most useful skill of all of them allowing mobility without shortbow) for evade thieves to make sure that people will have to play deadeye.

    In doing so all Arenanet have done is forced thieves into d/p and shortbow that has been meta for thieves since the launch of the game. Bounding dodger and heartseeker in black powder for permastealth is more annoying to fight than evade thieves ever were. The difference between them is stealth is unpredictable and an escape mechanism while evades have to be timed and have counterplay since you can always see the thief.

    It's obvious Arenanet want to lower the skill cap of thief by forcing them into a ganker playstyle rather than with skilled play a damage avoiding tank. It's ok for spellbreaker to have overpowered skills because they're all passive but when a thief actively uses his skills to survive that's not ok. Casuals are not encouraged to pvp and wvw if you have masters of the thief class dominating them after years of practice.

    Pistolwhip (https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Pistol_Whip) was meta a long time ago and it was nerfed hard because it offered too much for a single skill. Reality is Arenanet will nerf what the players QQ the most about and that’s the truth. If a thread gets enough attention to be noticed by so many people jumping on the nerf thief bandwagon then it will happen. None of you have any real power except the masses. Majority rules in this world guys.

    Anyway I will leave my old hotjoin build here for you guys to try in case you want some fun with something that isn't meta in this game. This was a fun way to play thief for me that wasn't a glass cannon like deadeye is. But it seems I am forced like the rest of the game into braindead dps like pvers.

    http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vZAQRAsa6al0MhKnYxTw3JQ/ELVF180v9jv3FcCBQ3BcdFAA-jZROAByfQAi/EAc+TAAg9H6tMAA

    Now instead of running s/p like me you could run s/d and try to play around the self-nerf of unhindered combatant with don't stop (recently they removed the icd). If you take hard to catch with signet of agility and channeled vigor you could still have enough dodges to survive.

    All this does for me though is force me into my deadeye build which is of course what Arenanet wanted. It's got really high dps from range and the easiest playstyle of all time. Just press 3 to win and if you die well too bad because thief isn't supposed to be a duelist. (Am i right Arenanet?)

    http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vZAQRAsa6al0MhKnYxTw3JQ/EL7Em3SYLUD4nl7yg5WAo20mA-jZROABAs/QvlBO/JAI/BBI+TAAA

  • kKagari.6804kKagari.6804 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Fiddle Irk.9710 said:
    Scenario: I'm in a fight and have one dodge left. I have cripple on me and don't want to dodge and thus be stuck without any endurance for the next 6 seconds ( 4 for the exhaustion and 2 for my endurance to refill enough to dodge) but then a warrior winds up with a big ol hammer stun, or a reaper executioner scythe ect. and what then? Eat it and get wrecked? Because if I go to dodge a big physical attack and happen to have a nearly ever present condition on me I get punished BIG TIME.....UC needing to be nerfed is debatable, the nerf it got is disgusting.

    Its the same kitten every other class puts up with, except you have an extra dodge already and infinitely more ways to recover endurance. What you suggest can happen pre-patch anyways; you waste your dodge, you eat a big attack.

  • Crinn.7864Crinn.7864 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Gwii.5972 said:

    @Karl McLain.5604 said:
    1) What was the reasoning behind the change to Unhindered Combatant?
    "One important balance change in this update is the change to Unhindered Combatant. While thieves, and by extension daredevils, are intended to be slippery combatants, the escape potential for this trait was a little too high."
    Unhindered Combatant has long been dominant in multiple game-types. It represents a longer distance movement option, condition-break, and swiftness generator. We like these things.
    The issue, however, is that there is almost no 'counter' play to the functionality... in that neither players nor designers have a way to whittle down the thief's defensive capabilities short of one-shotting them in a time where there are no evade frames occurring. We want the thief to remain incredibly mobile, but need to introduce some soft-counters so that there are methods to hinder the super-defensive nature of UC builds. We'll keep watch of Exhaustion's interactions with Unhindered Combatant and will adjust as necessary.

    Sorry but this is just meowing cat kitten. UC is dominant in what sense? They can't kill a thief fleeing? Well why does the thief have to flee in the first place? Have you ever thought of that?

    Do you realize how flipping broken thief would be if they could brawl without having to "flee." The optimal comp would literally be 5 thieves.

    Sanity is for the weak minded
    YouTube

  • OriOri.8724OriOri.8724 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Exitus.3297 said:

    @OriOri.8724 said:

    @omgdracula.6345 said:

    @Elxdark.9702 said:

    stop with the overreact act, jesus.
    Every good thief i know has said me that the nerf while it's annoying it doesn't change anything, at least in PvP you should not be affected by this at all unless you're bad which I think a lot of thieves started to realize.

    That isn't really overreacting I am pretty much pointing out that Karl didn't really give any form of good reasoning. You can't sit there and deny that condi spam is not an issue. Dash was the thief counterplay to condi spam which Anet effectively nerfed for no real tangible reason. I am sure that in PvP it isn't a huge difference but like many have said it does affect PvE as well. No reason for the nerf should have crossed lines into pve.

    Correction. Pre-nerf Dash was DD's way to be completely immune to movement impairing conditions due to DD's extra endurance and ridiculous endurance regen.

    If it was a general condi cleanse it actually would have been almost fine, but still a bit too powerful. That way you wouldn't be guaranteed to cleanse a movement impairing condition, and other players would actually have a chance at pinning you down. As it was, it was much too powerful.

    UC was the strongest of the 3 Grandmaster traits in terms of how much it did. There is no question that UC needed to be toned down.

    The issue here is the implementation of a double-edged sword into the trait. They could have just as easily toned the trait down in other ways. Making it so it removes one movement-impairing condition at a time would have been acceptable because it no longer becomes a double-edged sword, just a weaker trait that opponents can work around.

    As it stands, 4 seconds of no endurance regeneration is about 20 endurance, 30 if you have Vigor (it doesn't regenerate even with Vigor to my knowledge, just direct endurance gains). That means that even breaking a cripple costs anywhere from 70 to 80 endurance.

    I don't think most DD players have an issue with the fact UC needs to get toned down a little, especially if they get some compensation elsewhere. The reality is PvP and WvW are condi-spam fests, and UC was used as counterplay to the spam-fest. I just find it very ironic Karl mentioned there wasn't much counterplay to UC and its defensive nature when the trait itself was a form of counterplay. I'm not over exaggerating when I say it is pretty obvious they want to make it easier for classes to catch up to and kill the DD.

    This nerf isn't a big deal in PvP mainly due to the DD's role. They shouldn't be committing to long fights to begin with. WvW is a completely different story. All this change does is send a giant sign to DD's "we don't want you to fight and be good at it." DD's are getting pigeon-holed into the role of +1/Decap in PvP, and this change just further enforces that. Stick to that role, and you are fine. Deviate from it and be punished.

    I'm not sure about anyone else, but I want to see less pigeon-holing. Not more. That said, I'm thankful for Karl's response. I just simply do not agree with the approach.

    Again, I'm right here with you guys on this change being poorly thought out and rather stupid way to nerf UC. But it needed to be nerfed, and some thieves are still in denial over that fact.

    Eyyyy I unlocked signatures

  • Crinn.7864Crinn.7864 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited November 10, 2017

    @Fiddle Irk.9710 said:
    Scenario: I'm in a fight and have one dodge left. I have cripple on me and don't want to dodge and thus be stuck without any endurance for the next 6 seconds ( 4 for the exhaustion and 2 for my endurance to refill enough to dodge) but then a warrior winds up with a big ol hammer stun, or a reaper executioner scythe ect. and what then? Eat it and get wrecked? Because if I go to dodge a big physical attack and happen to have a nearly ever present condition on me I get punished BIG TIME.....UC needing to be nerfed is debatable, the nerf it got is disgusting.

    Here are your options

    If in d/p:

    • Interrupt the enemy's cast with headshot
    • If they have stability use steal to interrupt instead
    • If you can't do the above use shadowshot or blinding power to blind the incoming attack
    • If you can't do the above use Shadow Step to escape

    If in shortbow:

    • use the evade on sb3 to evade the attack
    • else use sb5 to teleport out
    • if you don't have the ini for the above, use blinding powder to blind the attack
    • if you don't have ini or blinding power use shadowstep to avoid the attack.
    • don't forget about using steal to interrupt

    If you can't do any of the above, then you've clearly been massively outplayed and deserve to die.

    Sanity is for the weak minded
    YouTube

  • BlaqueFyre.5678BlaqueFyre.5678 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited November 10, 2017

    @Rezzet.3614 said:
    The > @Fiddle Irk.9710 said:

    Scenario: I'm in a fight and have one dodge left. I have cripple on me and don't want to dodge and thus be stuck without any endurance for the next 6 seconds ( 4 for the exhaustion and 2 for my endurance to refill enough to dodge) but then a warrior winds up with a big ol hammer stun, or a reaper executioner scythe ect. and what then? Eat it and get wrecked? Because if I go to dodge a big physical attack and happen to have a nearly ever present condition on me I get punished BIG TIME.....UC needing to be nerfed is debatable, the nerf it got is disgusting.

    The nerf it got is fine it makes thief have to actually play like other professions, everyone else does precisely as you say if they use all their dodges recklessly, they eat a can of whoop thief shouldnt be an exception and all of you ignore the fact dd has 3 evades instead of two and can refill 4 evades in 1 to 2 seconds via utilities one of them being a condi cleanse

    Warrior can be built for better Endurance regen and can spam more evades than Thieves just fyi, oh and it’s Reckless Dodge can hit for 6-8k in Pvp fun times to be had, I rolled a War and with mah build I get to play as a better bound spam Thief with Dual daggers lol

    Also no other class is punished and locked from a basic gameplay mechanic for a trait choice, so unless they start spreading the basic gameplay mechanic punishments around they need to find a different fix to UC.

  • Jinks.2057Jinks.2057 Member ✭✭✭✭

    funny what condi mirage is now when I reread Karl's reason for the nerf

    How about you come back and address our points Karl?

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