[Suggestion]No account-bound items from black lion chests

Everyone is busy complaining about mount skins, and rightfully so....but there's another problem!

This recent trend that started a few months ago has done nothing but solidify my hatred for the gem store. It has done nothing but drive me away from ever wanting to spend a single dime on the gem store.

Even in yesterday's patch, you added ANOTHER account bound skin bundle with the Wild Magic Backpack Glider Combo. I would have gladly paid $10, 700 gems as you previously had them, for the backpack/glider combo...but no! You had to go add them as an RNG account bound drop from black lion chest. Now, you get $0 instead of that $10. I hope your metrics for profits is looking good enough for you because of it, since your metrics for overall player happiness is surely plummeting.

Oh, and just to clarify, I know it's not just me. I've talked with numerous people, and there's a healthy number of them that have completely stopped spending any money on the gem store because of your fetish for RNG rewards.

Here's what I did: tempted as I was, I didn't spend gems on BL keys to get the Elemental Sword (one of the account bound items of concern to you). Instead I crossed my fingers that it would return... and it did.

For one 'season', the chests dropped the Black Lion Exclusives Chest. This item is tradeable and it offers the owner a choice of any of the previously account bound unlocks from previous seasons, including the Elemental Sword I coveted. The BLEC has been trading at 350g (buy offers) to 600g (sell offers) for a while now, which is roughly in line with how much some people have said they were willing to pay to avoid RNG.

For comparison, 500g would get you 2000 gems (at 100g:400 gem rate that's been the rough average the past six months), which would buy nearly 25 keys, far too few to guarantee any of the account bound drops.

I will spend on RNG boxes if I can afford to gather enough to collect some useful drop data, so my ventures are limited to ToTs and Wintersday Gifts and the like. But there are so many interesting, fun, and useful items on the gem store that I can safely ignore those that don't let me choose. I don't mind waiting so I can spend less or choose.

@"Illconceived Was Na.9781" said:Here's what I did: tempted as I was, I didn't spend gems on BL keys to get the Elemental Sword (one of the account bound items of concern to you). Instead I crossed my fingers that it would return... and it did.

For one 'season', the chests dropped the Black Lion Exclusives Chest. This item is tradeable and it offers the owner a choice of any of the previously account bound unlocks from previous seasons, including the Elemental Sword I coveted. The BLEC has been trading at 350g (buy offers) to 600g (sell offers) for a while now, which is roughly in line with how much some people have said they were willing to pay to avoid RNG.

For comparison, 500g would get you 2000 gems (at 100g:400 gem rate that's been the rough average the past six months), which would buy nearly 25 keys, far too few to guarantee any of the account bound drops.

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I will spend on RNG boxes if I can afford to gather enough to collect some useful drop data, so my ventures are limited to ToTs and Wintersday Gifts and the like. But there are so many interesting, fun, and useful items on the gem store that I can safely ignore those that don't let me choose. I don't mind waiting so I can spend less or choose.

That's not getting them my money though. So, that really doesn't address what I'm talking about. Hopefully, it's working for them, as far as they see fit...but being completely profit oriented through exploiting people with gambling problems and weak self control is not going to keep unhappy players around.

@Asur.9178 said:That's not getting them my money though.Exactly. You just would buy the BLEC on the TP. No need for you to spend RL cash at all.

being completely profit oriented through exploiting people with gambling problems and weak self control is not going to keep unhappy players around.Except that exaggerates what they are doing and what they have done. And it ignores the fact that, actually, they keep enough players around.

In particular, it's hard to say if this exploits people with weak self-control, because we don't know how many people simply like rolling the dice to see what might happens (quite a lot as it turns out) and how many can't help themselves (more than ANet thinks probably; less than you or I suspect maybe).

I'm not a fan of ANet doing this, if for no other reason than it generates bad will & ill feelings. Plus I think they can afford to lose some revenue in favor of doing it differently. I just don't think there's evidence that it's a moral issue, as some are presenting it.

For example, look at how some of the forum permissions are set up. ANet has specifically hidden how features are unlocked, such as Private Messaging and Signatures. And their official explanation is: "we thought it would surprise and delight you". Generally, there's evidence of the surprise; no one I've seen admits to being delighted by it. So it's entirely plausible that a lot of folks at ANet thought that we would honestly like RNG mount skins, given that you can't get dupes and eventually we'd earn them all, spending as little or as much as we like.

Regardless, I mention the BLEC because it's precisely a kind of mechanic that guarantees that folks opening a lot of chests can monetize some of what drops for them and folks that don't want to gamble can get a guaranteed item for gold (no RNG).

It might not be exactly what you want (for that matter, it's not exactly what I want either), but it's a far cry from the claim that these items are account bound and RNG.

I agree to not make them account bound please.I'm kind of keeping away from the black chests and letting my keys pile up until the next time it changes because I really don't want the same issue with the balthazar outfit to happen to me with that backpack.That backpack is something I will never ever ever use either and I rather sell it in the auction house for even if it's a copper so at least someone who wants it can at least use it.Yeah I can throw it away but that already seems wrong.I already got annoyed slightly as my friend wanted to give the exhalted suit a try once after he got the mastery. He went into one thought it was cool but have more fun doing the Tarir event outside of one.Was joking, but still slightly irked me a bit when I said, "I'm sure you pissed someone off that wanted that suit and now can't use it because you decided to just try it out and throw it away."We laughed, but still. I'm 3rd letter in the alphabet when I need to be, but I don't like just being one for the sake of being one.

Here's how "uncommon" those "uncommon" items are. I used gold, because I refuse to spend $ on this nonsense.

Opened 45 chests: 0, and I repeat 0 "uncommon" or higher. RNG is RNG.

MountGate backfiring everywhere

They aren't going to stop doing it until it stops being profitable.

I don't like it either. Even just using free keys (I never buy them) I've ended up on both sides of the issue at various times - not getting the items I want but also getting ones I'll never use and wish I could sell, or even give away. I used to defend the existence of Black Lion Chests by saying that unlike other games the drops are tradable and/or available elsewhere so you never have to gamble if you don't want to. Now that's gone. (Yes it's only a few items, but it's some of the ones a lot of people want.)

But even so I can understand why they do it because I've seen far more people talking about these drops than almost any previous ones, even the more popular Black Lion weapon sets. And most importantly I've seen people who previously would never have bought keys talking about buying tens or hundreds of keys to try to get that one item they want.

Which means from Anet's perspective it's working - they're selling a product, people are buying it. Great!

And it's only very recently (specifically the last week or so) that I've seen significant numbers of people complaining. Whether that's because more people want the new glider and aren't getting it or because of the mount skins or because of the wider discussion around loot boxes in games that's going on...or just because it's November and maybe more people are spending time online and looking for things to do with it, I'm not sure what the reason is. But until recently it looked like Anet had a good thing going, for them anyway.

@Asur.9178 said:Here's how "uncommon" those "uncommon" items are. I used gold, because I refuse to spend $ on this nonsense.

Opened 45 chests: 0, and I repeat 0 "uncommon" or higher. RNG is RNG.

45 chests isn't even remotely enough of a sample size to prove how uncommon a specific drop is.

@Wolfheart.7483 said:

@Asur.9178 said:Here's how "uncommon" those "uncommon" items are. I used gold, because I refuse to spend $ on this nonsense.

Opened 45 chests: 0, and I repeat 0 "uncommon" or higher. RNG is RNG.

Of course not; but 45 chests, if I paid $, accounts to about US $50. That's US $50 to NOT get the thing I'm trying to get/pay for.

If you don't see the absurdity in that, then I cannot help you.

Yeah, account bound RNG items in the BLC are gross. Been said a million times, but I'll add my voice to that again. I won't ever buy keys (bought a few in the distant past, huge buyer's remorse, learned my lesson).

I don't really acquire BL Keys for those particular new release items; I use the Keys for the Wardrobe Unlocks which are more common. Thus, the issue of being account-bound doesn't really bother me, as Wardrobe Unlocks are, of course, account-bound. My last 2 Keys gave me a Black Lion Weapon; each worth around 250-340 Gold.

For me, and this is only me, it seems an easy way to get those Weapon Skins, and such.

@Inculpatus cedo.9234 said:I don't really acquire BL Keys for those particular new release items; I use the Keys for the Wardrobe Unlocks which are more common. Thus, the issue of being account-bound doesn't really bother me, as Wardrobe Unlocks are, of course, account-bound. My last 2 Keys gave me a Black Lion Weapon; each worth around 250-340 Gold.

For me, and this is only me, it seems an easy way to get those Weapon Skins, and such.

With the cost of those 45 keys, you could have BOUGHT yourself the exact skin that you want 3 times over+.

RNG is RNG. Every single time I've tried these chests, I've gotten shat on. There's absolutely 0 reason for me to EVER spend $ on them...and I'm not alone. Mind you, I've been playing this game since betas.

Did they come far since the first time the chests were introduced? Yes, definitely!...but, since a few months ago (actually about a year now), they started kittening around again with account bound rewards...and that was when I stopped spending a dime on the game, besides the expansion, once again.

45 Keys? Not sure where you got 45 Keys from. I only mentioned 2 Keys.

Agreed. These have been less of an issue for me than the mounts because 1. I have dozens of backpieces/wings available and ZERO mount skins, and 2. there are 30 mount skins locked behind that loot box. So the mount thing was definitely a bigger "shock to the system," a bigger difference between expectation and reality, but I agree with you that both situations are pretty kitteny from a consumer position.

They need to move AWAY from RNG, RNG serves no purpose other than to exploit player psychology, and it's just scummy behavior under any circumstances. I agree with you that if the Wild Energy set were released as a purchased thing, I would purchase one, but I'm certainly not going to be buying any black lion keys hoping that one might pop out.

Actually, a better way would be get rid of the RNG stuff totally, just put them on market for DIRECT SALE.

i support the op. every item available via an rng should be tradeable. getting an item from an rng you dont want and be able to find a person to trade with engages people to get in contact with each other and be social and trains ones trading skills.

I know it's the flavor of the month right now, and I'm not defending anything necessarily for this post as far as the whole RNG debate, so don't take it as an attack or attack me (please?), but...Do we really want to demand that this and everything else just be as easily accessible for everyone so it immediately is everywhere? The festive tonic is rare too, and it's time gated and not solo-able.
Trade-offs for rare items.
The only trade off here is finding a key. You could spend 36 gold on one, but not really necessary - there's other ways. You could have saved some and already have some. Or, yes, you could buy one for ~1.50, but that is obviously not necessary, and no where near an astronomical price for a shot at a really rare item. Rarity makes items you have more special/meaningful. And besides making things drop less, there's not many ways to make an item rare. If it's to be extremely rare, have it drop scarcely from BLC. I understand your complaint here - I honestly do, but I guess I'm advocating to let the dust settle on it and look at ALL of a similar kind of item, and when they ALL start being put into BLCs, then be upset or just point out that only rare ones have been released recently.
The only time I've every bought a black lion chest key is when I had some random extra gems one time and didn't save them, so it was only a couple keys. But I've opened much more than that. We get them, just not very often and that's by design, and you have the option to buy pretty much ANYTHING in the game so that's irrelevant here on whether you can buy a key (for the price of $1.57 I'll point out, OR ~36 gold as of writing this - keeping in mind we're all rolling around on 250 gold griffons...). I don't mind that they're not everywhere. I appreciate it more when I get them and it's fun to be excited for someone else getting something as opposed to being like, "oh yeah, i got that too". Also, I've liked what I've gotten from the chests so far even though it hasn't been anything life altering, because I know what I should expect and my chances. I take the shot, and then go back to the list of 1000 other things I need to do that is within my complete control, and I enjoy it all. What's wrong that a tiny list (in the scheme of things) that is within black lion chests. Now, like I said, I understand your concern about it being something to watch, but we can just say that it shouldn't repeatedly be put out in this method without getting upset that this one was, I think, although it is a large issue and there are perfect good reasons to stand rigidly in many different "camps" of this discussion. Lot of valid opinions, and ANet is supposed to make everyone happy. So, that's why i'm ok with a little bit of rng with a little elite stuff buyable, with some profitable bundles, with some items in game. Serving everyone. Just have to encourage it to remain balanced and we're good. That's my take, as unpopular as it is.

@SoulPariah.2856 said:The only trade off here is finding a key. You could spend 36 gold on one, but not really necessary - there's other ways. You could have saved some and already have some. Or, yes, you could buy one for ~1.50, but that is obviously not necessary, and no where near an astronomical price for a shot at a really rare item. Rarity makes items you have more special/meaningful. And besides making things drop less, there's not many ways to make an item rare. If it's to be extremely rare, have it drop scarcely from BLC. I understand your complaint here - I honestly do, but I guess I'm advocating to let the dust settle on it and look at ALL of a similar kind of item, and when they ALL start being put into BLCs, then be upset or just point out that only rare ones have been released recently.

Rarity via paid loot boxes is not good rarity. Having the item you want because you spent $200 and didn't stop at $190 is a kitteny way to give an item "emotional value." Emotional value should come through the act of playing for an item, not paying for an item, regardless of the risks involved.

No one in this topic is asking for the item to be "easily accessible for everyone so it immediately is everywhere". We're not even asking for any more of them in the game - just for it to be tradable so that people who have it and don't want it can sell it to those who do.

That wouldn't add any more of them to the game, which means it wouldn't make it any more common or easily available. It would just mean the limited number of them which drop end up in the hands of people who want them and will use them.

I suppose you could argue that makes them appear more common, because they'll actually get used. My Fallen Balthazar outfit and Hydra Staff may as well not exist because I've never equipped them, so to anyone else wearing it and looking around it seems like I don't have them and theirs is special. Of course that's a completely incorrect assumption based on flawed logic ("I don't see it right now, therefore it doesn't exist") but the whole idea of virtual items in a game being rare and special is pretty arbitrary to begin with.

But other than that making all the items from the black lions chests tradable wouldn't change the rarity, or the fact that you have to spend some form of currency to "earn" it. It just removes the random factor (for secondary buyers).

@Danikat.8537 said:just for it to be tradable so that people who have it and don't want it can sell it to those who do.

This, please.

Here's the general principle I'd like ANet to apply:

If it costs gems, it should never be both bound and random

• If random (e.g. from BL chests), it should be tradeable on the TP.
• If bound-on-acquire, it should be a guaranteed drop (not random).

@Illconceived Was Na.9781 said:

@Danikat.8537 said:just for it to be tradable so that people who have it and don't want it can sell it to those who do.

If it costs gems, it should never be both bound and random

• If random (e.g. from BL chests), it should be tradeable on the TP.
• If bound-on-acquire, it should be a guaranteed drop (not random).

Sensible

@Illconceived Was Na.9781 said:Here's the general principle I'd like ANet to apply:

If it costs gems, it should never be both bound and random

• If random (e.g. from BL chests), it should be tradeable on the TP.
• If bound-on-acquire, it should be a guaranteed drop (not random).

That's literally all I asked.

They were pretty good about it too, until they started adding account bound nonsense to them again...which is, as I said previously, when I stopped spending any money on the gem store.

While I am against account bound items in the BLCs and have been since I found out about them, I have to agree with @Illconceived Was Na.9781 about the tradable chest correcting this problem. I feel it needs to be regularly (not necessarily continuously but annually or better) available, but its no where near the bs that the gamble mounts are.

Ideally, I say no to all gambles with real money ingame as we have people who are under the gambling age in their country as well as people who are susceptible to gambling addiction. However, I understand that the gambling gives a kick that people enjoy, and therefore would rather not take that away from them as long as there are alternative methods to purchase for those of us who have wizened up/don't enjoy/flat out refuse to partaking in gambling.

I support the OP100%, I'm willing to pay for stuff, but pls let me buy it rather than gamble for it.