Condi power creep fix. (condensed)

Protection and retaliation work against condi damage.

Bleeding -50% dmg +100% durationTorment -25% dmg +50% durationPoison -10% dmg +20% durationConfusion +10% dmg -20% durationBurning +30% dmg -60% duration

This would have the effect of smoothing out condi bombs, making them easier to resist without destroying thier effectiveness, while adding countarplay. It would also prevent condi builds from having thier effectiveness gutted. But would serve to bring up the effectiveness of power builds, because condi ramp up time would be drastically increased.

Changes raid dps by virtually nothing. (though may change viable builds because longer conditions may become more useful than burning, especially if the durations of applied conditions extend beyond the cool downs of moves)

It will reduce condi burst issues in pvp and wvw... While still allowing for burst play with conditions, but restricting it to (almost) only burning. Thus, burning becomes more dangerous, not because it does more damage (per se) but because you have to react quickly to it and have much more time to react to other conditions.

Thoughts?

The real solution to any imbalance is to look at individual skills, traits and (when necessary) builds and balance those, not to nerf an entire category builds because some very vocal people claim it's overpowered (based solely on the top skills, traits or builds if on anything at all).

Besides that:Resistance is a stronger form of protection that only works against conditions, if protection were to work against conditions, resistance should probably be removed altogether (which I wouldn't mind in the slightest, as I'm not fond of immunities in general).Retaliation works against condition builds, as they have to hit to actually apply conditions. On most skills retaliation hits once per skill activation (multi-hit skills probably being an exception), I don't see why this should be different for conditions, it would also be more harmful against slow conditions (like bleeding) than against fast ones (burning mainly) while the latter seems to be the main complaint about condition builds.

Bleeding is slow enough at the moment, it really doesn't need to be even slower.Burning is the last condition that needs to be faster and halving its damage (1.3x0.4=0.52) doesn't seem very conductive to balance either and certainly wouldn't force anyone to react to it quickly (or at all), it probably wouldn't be worth using a cleanse on.

I´m for reducing the overall amount of different conditions you can dish out literally at once on every single class.Perhaps down to 2 damage-conditions and 2 other ones like vulnerability or weakness.

Would it be better if the if anet buff up condition cleaners to remove whole highest stack without killing the condition damage. Not perfect but tbh most of the condition cleaners are too weak and pointless removing 1 or 2 condition when you have like 25+ condition on you.

Edited:Thinking about it, above may not work, but still most condition cleaners needs a buff.

@Etienne.3049 said:The real solution to any imbalance is to look at individual skills, traits and (when necessary) builds and balance those, not to nerf an entire category builds because some very vocal people claim it's overpowered (based solely on the top skills, traits or builds if on anything at all).

Besides that:Resistance is a stronger form of protection that only works against conditions, if protection were to work against conditions, resistance should probably be removed altogether (which I wouldn't mind in the slightest, as I'm not fond of immunities in general).Retaliation works against condition builds, as they have to hit to actually apply conditions. On most skills retaliation hits once per skill activation (multi-hit skills probably being an exception), I don't see why this should be different for conditions, it would also be more harmful against slow conditions (like bleeding) than against fast ones (burning mainly) while the latter seems to be the main complaint about condition builds.

Bleeding is slow enough at the moment, it really doesn't need to be even slower.Burning is the last condition that needs to be faster and halving its damage (1.3x0.4=0.52) doesn't seem very conductive to balance either and certainly wouldn't force anyone to react to it quickly (or at all), it probably wouldn't be worth using a cleanse on.

So, a few points here. It's not a nerf. The change to damage numbers comes out with DPS flat. Virtually no change.

The point of the duration and damage changes was to allow people to react to conditions as they stack. Thus they won't be surprised by a sudden burst.

Secondly, making conditions 'slower' actually helps the already slow conditions like bleeding. If a move does say 3 stacks of bleed for 10 sec on a 15 sec CD now.... After the change it's 3 stacks at 1/2dmg for 20 sec on a 15 sec CD. This allows for an overlap of 6 stacks for 5 sec, causing a short boost in overall DPS, that would be noticeable and even preferable in a raid setting, but would make those bleeds much more survivable in pvp.

You do bring up a solid point about resistance. However, that would suggest making it an effect, rather than a boon. Because we already have direct damage immunity from certain skills... It would make sense to have resistance effects moved to function in this way instead.

As for protection, I feel that: with as common as it can be, nearly every class would have access to some damage reduction. This would be a direct answer to power creep in condition builds in exactly the way its been preventing power creep from power builds since launch. By allowing counterplay that stops short of immunity.

Retaliation I feel is an underpowered boon in any case. It only ever feels truly strong when you accidentally use 100 blades on a target with retaliation. By making retaliation return damage on both direct damage, and on condi application, this makes the boon stronger overall, and adds yet more counterplay. Especially on classes like guardian or revenant who can get lots of both retaliation and protection. (though I admit this would require some major reworking of the damage numbers for retaliation, and I don't have a suggestion for what those numbers should be.)

If you'll notice on burning, and confusion, my suggestion was the inverse. I suggested pushing the damage up, and reducing the duration. Thus preventing large stacks that murder you in a flash, yet still allowing condition builds a burst option, while leaving the DPS of burn spam builds, like Weaver or Firebrand, still completely functional, as damage over time, pre or post change is flat.

Also, as burning and confuse are fast and more damaging, but other conditions are slower and weaker, this means in a pvp setting, you can be watching bleed and torment and poison stack up on you, and time your cleanse to catch the big burning spike incoming. This helps to keep you from constantly running out of cleanse and dying to condi burst. (if you don't think this is a problem... Please go play Spvp for the next two weeks and get back to me.)

See when the next burst comes in, it will take some time before it becomes deadly, and burning would be hard to stack.... Thus mitigating hyper deadly infinite condi burst that we currently have in pvp, without nerfing PvE performance.

And really, are you totally and completely happy with the number of viable power builds?

Don't you want a somewhat even number of viable builds of both types?

I do.

@BrokenGlass.9356 said:

So, a few points here. It's not a nerf. The change to damage numbers comes out with DPS flat. Virtually no change.

You seem to think conditions are overpowered at the moment and that your idea would make them balanced, that is a nerf. As is halving all burning damage and halving the speed of bleeding (nerf against everything but HP bag bosses in the case of bleeding).My comment was also aimed at this entire style of "balance" suggestions, mass changes instead of looking at individual skills/traits.

Secondly, making conditions 'slower' actually helps the already slow conditions like bleeding. If a move does say 3 stacks of bleed for 10 sec on a 15 sec CD now.... After the change it's 3 stacks at 1/2dmg for 20 sec on a 15 sec CD. This allows for an overlap of 6 stacks for 5 sec, causing a short boost in overall DPS, that would be noticeable and even preferable in a raid setting, but would make those bleeds much more survivable in pvp.

The overlap won't help a thing (not in solo PvE at least, maybe there's some trick to make it beneficial in raids), a skill that does 300 damage worth of bleed damage will still do 300 damage worth of bleed. The fact that for 5 seconds you'd get current damage and thereby "higher DPS" (DPS being meaningless for any period shorter than the entire battle (again possibly different in raids)) seems completely irrelevant to me. Skills would do the same (bleed) damage just over a longer time, thus being more vulnerable to cleanses and losing damage because the target dies/goes down.

Retaliation I feel is an underpowered boon in any case. It only ever feels truly strong when you accidentally use 100 blades on a target with retaliation. By making retaliation return damage on both direct damage, and on condi application, this makes the boon stronger overall, and adds yet more counterplay. Especially on classes like guardian or revenant who can get lots of both retaliation and protection. (though I admit this would require some major reworking of the damage numbers for retaliation, and I don't have a suggestion for what those numbers should be.)

I'm quite sure retaliation already works on condition application as conditions tend to be applies through hitting with a skill, contrary to what some people claim they don't just appear on you.

If you'll notice on burning, and confusion, my suggestion was the inverse. I suggested pushing the damage up, and reducing the duration. Thus preventing large stacks that murder you in a flash, yet still allowing condition builds a burst option, while leaving the DPS of burn spam builds, like Weaver or Firebrand, still completely functional, as damage over time, pre or post change is flat.

I singled out bleeding and burning because they were particularly bad, torment would get a bit of a damage boost in exchange for being slower and for poison and confusion the numbers were small enough not to completely ruin things. The DPS of burn spam would not be anywhere near functional, I don't care what you thought it'd do 1.3 (+30%) times 0.4 (-60%) is still 0.52 that's nearly halving burn damage.

Also, as burning and confuse are fast and more damaging, but other conditions are slower and weaker, this means in a pvp setting, you can be watching bleed and torment and poison stack up on you, and time your cleanse to catch the big burning spike incoming. This helps to keep you from constantly running out of cleanse and dying to condi burst. (if you don't think this is a problem... Please go play Spvp for the next two weeks and get back to me.)

I never really had a problem with damage conditions last time I played (couple of months ago, I can't really stand the "I'm losing therefore I'll abuse people" kind of players and since Anet refuses to ban them I've stopped playing PvP or at least reduced the amount I play PvP), if you get hit by a lot of them, you die, same as power based damage really, only you get a chance to cleanse conditions. The only conditions I really disliked were fear and taunt (as well as other CC).

See when the next burst comes in, it will take some time before it becomes deadly, and burning would be hard to stack.... Thus mitigating hyper deadly infinite condi burst that we currently have in pvp, without nerfing PvE performance.

Halving burn damage nerfs PvE performance. Halving the speed of bleeding nerfs PvE performance against anything but HP bag bosses.

And really, are you totally and completely happy with the number of viable power builds?

Don't you want a somewhat even number of viable builds of both types?

I do.

Just a quick look at a builds site gives me 5 builds listed as "meta" for PvP, going by their amulets that's 2 power, 1 healing/tank, 1 hybrid with a slight preference to conditions and 1 conditions, with the hybrid build rated considerably lower than the others, there's another 12 builds listed as "great", 3 of which have condition damage on their amulet at all, 1 sage's (major power and condition damage) and 2 carrion (major condition damage, minor power).

Going by that the number of viable power builds seems fine.

And no, I don't understand the "need" to balance "conditions" against "power" when you could balance class against class, skill against skill and build against build instead.

You are not listening to me.

Reread what I said there.

Burning (nearly) DOUBLED. not halved. Why in the world you didn't see that after the last time I said it.... And went on pretending that I still had I don't know.

A nerf would reduce total damage. This leaves dps flatlined.

Dps is the ONLY thing that matters when considering pve. Look man, I play condi builds. One on each class actually. And they, in general do too much spike damage. My condi Weaver clears trash mobs out in Elona faster than my power warrior. And even according to Anet... Power should be less total dps, much faster burst. Conditions should be much slower, and do much more total dps.

Conditions already do more dps than power by a great deal. There are possibly two viable power builds in raids for this reason. So the changes I propose are THE SAME DAMAGE IN ALL PVE MODES. the only perceived nerf here.... Is that it takes more buttons to apply a bigger stack. Which.... Is the point.

Secondly, I just can't take the opinion of someone who doesn't even play the game modes this fix is intended to repair seriously. You can't handle the toxic players? Yet you argue on forums? Give me a break. You might as well have said "I don't understand, nor want to try to understand, the point of these proposed changes."

So like I said.... Go play pvp (as a power build) for the next two weeks and tell me that your condi clears aren't perpetually on cool down while you still have 10 stacks of everything glued to your ass.

I'm talking about giving players breathing room. Not about nerfing your beloved damage.

Also, if I'm being totally fair. You DO have a good point about balancing individual skills. I'm NOT saying we shouldn't to that. I'm saying the core system needs a tweak ALSO... and so that's what I'm talking about here.

Go spend some time in WvW. Feel the pirate ship condi spam horror.

Don't just check on metabattle or quantify and decide you have all the answers. Play the modes and feel them. Don't give me that argumentative fallacy of appealing to authority.