How to balance every single thing that's bad on Engineer [PvP] - Page 2 — Guild Wars 2 Forums

How to balance every single thing that's bad on Engineer [PvP]

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  • One think that i see lacking in core engi, is a type of condi cleanse, a proper one, that doesnt kitten you again after using it (i'm talking to you Elixir C.)

    We need more condi cleanse options that don't rely on the usage of Elixirs. Imagine if the AED toolbelt had this, agood condi clense on it?, or just like Chaith suggestion with utility googles, we need more stuff like that one.

  • coro.3176coro.3176 Member ✭✭✭✭

    I think they should take that "elixirs cleanse conditions" trait out, replace it with something else, then add some condi cleanse to engi's base heals. It would add a lot of build diversity if people weren't stuck running elixirs and e-gun for the cleanse.

  • Coolguy.8702Coolguy.8702 Member ✭✭✭

    Relevant:

    Do you know who you're talking to?

    Could care less if he's top 10, especially since the pvp in this game is easy as hell to do, hell ive even seen renegades and naked revs get top 50 ez. Point is, core engi is fine and just as good as the other builds, tho for some reason he doesnt want to admit it, holo and the op specs (like scourge snd mirage), just need to be toned down.

  • Coolguy.8702Coolguy.8702 Member ✭✭✭

    @Coolguy.8702 said:

    Relevant:

    Do you know who you're talking to?

    Could care less if he's top 10, especially since the pvp in this game is easy as hell to do, hell ive even seen renegades and naked revs get top 50 ez. Point is, core engi is fine and just as good as the other core builds, tho for some reason he doesnt want to admit it, holo and the op specs (like scourge snd mirage), just need to be toned down.

  • Chaith.8256Chaith.8256 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited November 16, 2017

    @Coolguy.8702 said:

    Point is, core engi is fine and just as good as the other builds, tho for some reason he doesnt want to admit it, holo and the op specs (like scourge snd mirage), just need to be toned down.

    You haven't made a point or provided evidence, more like just attempting to speak core Engi into being as good as other core/elite specs when it's not :(

    twitch.tv/chaithh
    Forum Lord Chaith

  • Coolguy.8702Coolguy.8702 Member ✭✭✭
    edited November 16, 2017

    You haven't made a point or provided evidence, more like just attempting to speak core Engi into being as good as other core/elite specs when it's not :(

    This is why i said mostly all your buffs were either pointless or just op

    Weapon Skills
    1.) This is just dum b, pistol is a condi weapon, if this was to happen then pistols condi damage would have to be toned down
    2.) Same thing as 1

    Utility Skills
    1.) Again no, utility goggles is great as is, this change would make holo stupidly op against ranger, scourge, ele and rev
    2.) Agreed
    3.) This would make slick shoes the most broken skill in the game, unevadable 2 second knockdown with 1 sec cd with ammo system?
    4.) Useless buff as not every class has stability and some might have more important boons
    5.) This would make mine field even more useless
    6.) I lol'd at this part, you shoulda just said to make elixir r a much more op version of resistance
    7.) This wouldn't be good, engi already has a descent amount of cleanse, giving even more would make it like firebrand
    8.) Orbital strike already deals a ton of damage, this buff would just make it dumb

    Healing Skills
    1.) cast time could use a reduction, but making a skill grant all boons is too much, especially since engi has tons of boons baseline
    2.) See 1
    3.) Yes

    Core engi traits

    Explosives
    1.) Not needed
    2.) No thank you, engi has enough fields and field duration as is
    3.) This trait doesnt even need a buff

    Firearms
    1.) No please, engi already has a ton of stability, with this change they'd be perma stability gods
    2.) Pointless
    3.) Your proposal would make blunderbuss and overcharged shot way too strong
    4.)Maybe
    5.) This is another bad change, engi already has a lot of bleed uptime, this change would be too effective

    Inventions
    1.) Dude engi already has a ton of blast finishers, with this change they'd have as much stealth as thief and mes do
    2.) Not needed, this trait is fine as
    3.) Pointless buff, 300 barrier does nothing
    4.) no
    5.) Turrets would be way too strong in pvp if this happened

    Didnt bother going into alchemy since the whole traitline is great and since you're only talking core, going into scrapper and holo wasn't needed

  • Chaith.8256Chaith.8256 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Coolguy.8702 said:
    stuff

    Many suggested changes you consider pointless I feel the implications may go deeper than you realize, some work together.

    It's not as easy as you think to make terrible builds into OP territory. Like firearms, turrets, camping a specific weapon for Juggernaut ticks.

    twitch.tv/chaithh
    Forum Lord Chaith

  • Chaith.8256Chaith.8256 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Ivantreil.3092 said:
    One think that i see lacking in core engi, is a type of condi cleanse, a proper one, that doesnt kitten you again after using it (i'm talking to you Elixir C.)

    We need more condi cleanse options that don't rely on the usage of Elixirs. Imagine if the AED toolbelt had this, agood condi clense on it?, or just like Chaith suggestion with utility googles, we need more stuff like that one.

    My suggesting for Utility Goggles are pretty much to have this currently very un-slottable stunbreak allow windows where you can't be weakened on top of its previous effects, it's more about offensive utility than proper condi cleanse.

    You speak more of defensive condition cleanse, I think it's not awesome that Alchemy is the only source of condition removal, but of course core Engi doesn't need access to more condition cleanse. Instead, core Engi either really needs access to the means to deal with power spikes, or have respectable instant counter pressure. Core Engi for example can build for pretty decent condi removal but shockingly few options for power spike outside of the only thing that works, elixir S. Shield is a non factor and tool kit's two second block is really it. Being able to have competitive defensive Slick Shoes, Invention's Turret Reflect being more precise, defensive Throw Mine disrupts, Jump Shot Evade, Juggernaut stability for pure Rifle/Pistol/FT camping builds, core Engi would definitely have a few more options to avoid getting rushed down and fodder-ized.

    twitch.tv/chaithh
    Forum Lord Chaith

  • One thing I have always wanted to see is with Medkit is for them to change the abilities into shout aoe. Reduce the duration of all of the boons by half or roughly there about since it will be able to effect 5 (going off base aoe mechanics) rather then just the single player it used to.
    Med kit as is, is just so cumbersome and for the majority of the time I find that I either don't land the skills or the wrong person grabs the tonic.

  • Chaith.8256Chaith.8256 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited November 18, 2017

    @Dei Veien.2456 said:
    One thing I have always wanted to see is with Medkit is for them to change the abilities into shout aoe. Reduce the duration of all of the boons by half or roughly there about since it will be able to effect 5 (going off base aoe mechanics) rather then just the single player it used to.
    Med kit as is, is just so cumbersome and for the majority of the time I find that I either don't land the skills or the wrong person grabs the tonic.

    Added skill update: Thrown Med Kit abilities affect 5 unique targets before being consumed off the ground.

    I'm sure I would prefer AoE healing like everyone else, but another rework to Med Kit seems unlikely.

    twitch.tv/chaithh
    Forum Lord Chaith

  • Imperadordf.2687Imperadordf.2687 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited November 18, 2017

    Excuse me, I am a pleb but isn't Engineer in a good spot in PvP at the moment and wouldn't these changes make it beyond broken?

  • Chaith.8256Chaith.8256 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Imperadordf.2687 said:
    Excuse me, I am a pleb but isn't Engineer in a good spot in PvP at the moment and wouldn't these changes make it beyond broken?

    It's a build diversity initiative that aims to not at all increase the strength of the only usable PvP build, Rifle Holosmith. Only dead traits and skills are buffed. Small shave to Crystal Configuration: Eclipse stability duration, actually.

    twitch.tv/chaithh
    Forum Lord Chaith

  • Coolguy.8702Coolguy.8702 Member ✭✭✭

    @Chaith.8256 said:

    @Coolguy.8702 said:

    @Imperadordf.2687 said:
    Excuse me, I am a pleb but isn't Engineer in a good spot in PvP at the moment and wouldn't these changes make it beyond broken?

    No you still didn't get it, Engineer =/= Rifle Holosmith. He meant that Rifle Holosmith is in a good spot.

    He's not agreeing with you, you think core Engi is fine, and not needing buffs. My point still stands, Core Thief, Core Ele, Core Warrior, Core Guard, these are at the level that other core builds need to come up to.

    He didnt say anthing about rifle holo so idk why you even brought that up. He agreed with me in the fact that most of your changes would make engineer op. Once agai, core engi is fine, Period.

  • Chaith.8256Chaith.8256 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited November 18, 2017

    @Coolguy.8702 said:
    He didnt say anthing about rifle holo so idk why you even brought that up. He agreed with me in the fact that most of your changes would make engineer op. Once agai, core engi is fine, Period.

    Literally every engineer in PvP right now doing decently is Rifle Holo. People say Engi is good, that's what they're referring to, man. People who are new to the scene, as he implied by calling himself a 'pleb' just know that Engi is doing good. It's true, Rifle Holo. I know you're desperate to think someone agrees that core Engi is really good, but it's bad :(

    It's not like it's some cosmic injustice, but lots of other professions have a couple relevant builds, I'd like to see that as well.

    twitch.tv/chaithh
    Forum Lord Chaith

  • Coolguy.8702Coolguy.8702 Member ✭✭✭

    @Chaith.8256 said:

    @Coolguy.8702 said:
    He didnt say anthing about rifle holo so idk why you even brought that up. He agreed with me in the fact that most of your changes would make engineer op. Once agai, core engi is fine, Period.

    Literally every engineer in PvP right now doing decently is Rifle Holo. People say Engi is good, that's what they're referring to, man. People who are new to the scene, as he implied by calling himself a 'pleb' just know that Engi is doing good. It's true, Rifle Holo. I know you're desperate to think someone agrees that core Engi is really good, but it's bad :(

    It's not like it's some cosmic injustice, but lots of other professions have a couple relevant builds, I'd like to see that as well.

    I already know people who agree with me on core engi. Again he agreed with me in the fact that your suggestions would make engi in general op, man. Also not many proffesions have build diversity, warrior, ele, mesmer, and revenant use mostly 1 build for pvp

  • Crinn.7864Crinn.7864 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Chaith.8256 said:
    Utility Skills
    4.) Throw Mine: Currently: Throw a mine that damages, knocks back, and removes a boon. New: Instead of removing a boon, Throw mine can only remove stability.

    While throw mine is certainly a underwhelming skill to say the least, deterministic stability removal is something that shouldn't exist. With the removal of pulsing stability from the game several patches ago, deterministic stability rip is enormously punitive, especially to melee classes, with little to no real counter play. It'ss bad enough that thieves have it, we don't need more of it.
    In my opinion all boonrip should be random, thus allowing some level of counterplay via cover boons, while not eliminating the value of boonrips.

    Alchemy
    5.) Iron-Blooded: Currently: Reduce damage taken by 2% for each boon on you. New: Instead, gain 1 second of protection and remove a condition when one of your boons is affected by a boon removal effect.

    This is way too niche. Such a implementation would have little to no value against most matchups, but at the same time, would make engi completely shutout hardcounter specific matchups such as Mallyx rev, all core necro variants, and all reaper variants.

    The trait would need a ICD in order not be a "click here to counter necros" trait, but at the same time if it had a ICD it would cease to have value since everything outside of necros and mallyx rev don't have the boonrip to warrant picking such a trait.

    Sanity is for the weak minded
    YouTube

  • Chaith.8256Chaith.8256 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Coolguy.8702 said:

    @Chaith.8256 said:

    @Coolguy.8702 said:
    He didnt say anthing about rifle holo so idk why you even brought that up. He agreed with me in the fact that most of your changes would make engineer op. Once agai, core engi is fine, Period.

    Literally every engineer in PvP right now doing decently is Rifle Holo. People say Engi is good, that's what they're referring to, man. People who are new to the scene, as he implied by calling himself a 'pleb' just know that Engi is doing good. It's true, Rifle Holo. I know you're desperate to think someone agrees that core Engi is really good, but it's bad :(

    It's not like it's some cosmic injustice, but lots of other professions have a couple relevant builds, I'd like to see that as well.

    I already know people who agree with me on core engi. Again he agreed with me in the fact that your suggestions would make engi in general op, man. Also not many proffesions have build diversity, warrior, ele, mesmer, and revenant use mostly 1 build for pvp

    Okay so you're just anti-build diversity, got it.. shouldn't strive for that because 'war, ele, mesmer and revenant use mostly 1.'

    To actually address your comments, for PvP, Warrior:

    Warrior:
    Spellbreaker, A tier build.
    Core Warrior, A- tier build.

    Ele:
    Core Fresh Air, A tier build.
    Weaver (Sword Dagger), A- tier build.

    Mesmer:
    EU Dueling Mirage: A+ tier build.
    NA Inspiration Mirage A tier build.
    NA Power Mirage A- tier build
    Chronomancer: A tier build

    Revenant sucks, I agree.

    Engi has Holosmith rifle, at least we can interchange tools/explosives, but ideally having the build diversity that Mesmer has would be amazing.

    twitch.tv/chaithh
    Forum Lord Chaith

  • Chaith.8256Chaith.8256 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited November 18, 2017

    @Crinn.7864 said:

    @Chaith.8256 said:
    Utility Skills
    4.) Throw Mine: Currently: Throw a mine that damages, knocks back, and removes a boon. New: Instead of removing a boon, Throw mine can only remove stability.

    While throw mine is certainly a underwhelming skill to say the least, deterministic stability removal is something that shouldn't exist. With the removal of pulsing stability from the game several patches ago, deterministic stability rip is enormously punitive, especially to melee classes, with little to no real counter play. It'ss bad enough that thieves have it, we don't need more of it.
    In my opinion all boonrip should be random, thus allowing some level of counterplay via cover boons, while not eliminating the value of boonrips.

    Alchemy
    5.) Iron-Blooded: Currently: Reduce damage taken by 2% for each boon on you. New: Instead, gain 1 second of protection and remove a condition when one of your boons is affected by a boon removal effect.

    This is way too niche. Such a implementation would have little to no value against most matchups, but at the same time, would make engi completely shutout hardcounter specific matchups such as Mallyx rev, all core necro variants, and all reaper variants.

    The trait would need a ICD in order not be a "click here to counter necros" trait, but at the same time if it had a ICD it would cease to have value since everything outside of necros and mallyx rev don't have the boonrip to warrant picking such a trait.

    Fair criticisms.. actually I just deleted my Iron-Blooded changes, I was no longer fond of it either. It's a dead trait, I'll think of something else for it.

    I think deterministic stability removal is good in very select doses. For mechanics that remove a good amount of boons, on a boon-hate heavy class, RNG is essential. The engineer's ability to remove 1 boon per mine is pretty pointless. The Engineer is SO cc dependent, I think landing a throw mine to rip Stability, and comboing CC off that would make it an extremely useful skill where it's never been used in PvP before.

    PvP has really become all about boons, and having a scourge to clean boons, I really dislike that and wish ArenaNet would implement work arounds to group stability spam.

    twitch.tv/chaithh
    Forum Lord Chaith

  • Chaith.8256Chaith.8256 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited November 18, 2017

    New Iron-Blooded suggestion:

    5.) Iron-Blooded: Currently: Reduce damage taken by 2% for every boon on you. New: When inside an Engineering Kit, gain protection. Interval: 1s, duration 1s. In combat. (Note: This trait will be a great defensive option for Core Engineers using: Grenade, Bomb, Flamethrower, Tool Kit, as Elixir Gun wielding Scrappers & Holosmiths will prefer to use HGH and not camp the kit.)

    twitch.tv/chaithh
    Forum Lord Chaith

  • Crinn.7864Crinn.7864 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Chaith.8256 said:
    I think deterministic stability removal is good in very select doses. For mechanics that remove a good amount of boons, on a boon-hate heavy class, RNG is essential. The engineer's ability to remove 1 boon per mine is pretty pointless. The Engineer is SO cc dependent, I think landing a throw mine to rip Stability, and comboing CC off that would make it an extremely useful skill where it's never been used in PvP before.

    PvP has really become all about boons, and having a scourge to clean boons, I really dislike that and wish ArenaNet would implement work arounds to group stability spam.

    But deterministic rips is not the way to go. If you find throw mine's rip underwhelming then simply increase the boons removed. I main reaper, and I find that [Corrupt Boon] despite only corrupting 3 boons, will most of the time hit what I want it to hit, but at the same time, since it's random it's not a 100% guaranteed screw-over for classes dependent on a important boon. Plus general boonrip is more flexible because sometimes you're more interested in removing boons other than stab. For example as a necro I will prioritize targeting might when fighting a holosmith as to inhibit the holosmith's ability to delete me.

    Also I would say that scourge's ability to wipe a entire boon bar is something that should never have existed. Boonrip should be distributed not concentrated.

    Sanity is for the weak minded
    YouTube

  • Chaith.8256Chaith.8256 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Crinn.7864 said:

    @Chaith.8256 said:
    I think deterministic stability removal is good in very select doses. For mechanics that remove a good amount of boons, on a boon-hate heavy class, RNG is essential. The engineer's ability to remove 1 boon per mine is pretty pointless. The Engineer is SO cc dependent, I think landing a throw mine to rip Stability, and comboing CC off that would make it an extremely useful skill where it's never been used in PvP before.

    PvP has really become all about boons, and having a scourge to clean boons, I really dislike that and wish ArenaNet would implement work arounds to group stability spam.

    But deterministic rips is not the way to go. If you find throw mine's rip underwhelming then simply increase the boons removed. I main reaper, and I find that [Corrupt Boon] despite only corrupting 3 boons, will most of the time hit what I want it to hit, but at the same time, since it's random it's not a 100% guaranteed screw-over for classes dependent on a important boon. Plus general boonrip is more flexible because sometimes you're more interested in removing boons other than stab. For example as a necro I will prioritize targeting might when fighting a holosmith as to inhibit the holosmith's ability to delete me.

    Also I would say that scourge's ability to wipe a entire boon bar is something that should never have existed. Boonrip should be distributed not concentrated.

    Yeah a deterministic rip would be a double edged sword, unable to rip anything unless the condition is met, unlike Steal, which puts stability and protection first but can steal any two boons that are present, for example, a juicy 25 might stacks.

    I don't see how steal is tolerable by the same standards.

    twitch.tv/chaithh
    Forum Lord Chaith

  • Crinn.7864Crinn.7864 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Chaith.8256 said:

    @Crinn.7864 said:

    @Chaith.8256 said:
    I think deterministic stability removal is good in very select doses. For mechanics that remove a good amount of boons, on a boon-hate heavy class, RNG is essential. The engineer's ability to remove 1 boon per mine is pretty pointless. The Engineer is SO cc dependent, I think landing a throw mine to rip Stability, and comboing CC off that would make it an extremely useful skill where it's never been used in PvP before.

    PvP has really become all about boons, and having a scourge to clean boons, I really dislike that and wish ArenaNet would implement work arounds to group stability spam.

    But deterministic rips is not the way to go. If you find throw mine's rip underwhelming then simply increase the boons removed. I main reaper, and I find that [Corrupt Boon] despite only corrupting 3 boons, will most of the time hit what I want it to hit, but at the same time, since it's random it's not a 100% guaranteed screw-over for classes dependent on a important boon. Plus general boonrip is more flexible because sometimes you're more interested in removing boons other than stab. For example as a necro I will prioritize targeting might when fighting a holosmith as to inhibit the holosmith's ability to delete me.

    Also I would say that scourge's ability to wipe a entire boon bar is something that should never have existed. Boonrip should be distributed not concentrated.

    Yeah a deterministic rip would be a double edged sword, unable to rip anything unless the condition is met, unlike Steal, which puts stability and protection first but can steal any two boons that are present, for example, a juicy 25 might stacks.

    I don't see how steal is tolerable by the same standards.

    Oh you have no idea. I could write a novel on the evils of thieves and how detrimental thieves are to the quality of play for the rest of us, but that is outside of the purview of this thread.

    Although as far as I know steal has a limit to how many might stacks it steals, i.e it won't steal a full stack. Larcenous Strike however has no limits.

    Sanity is for the weak minded
    YouTube

  • Coolguy.8702Coolguy.8702 Member ✭✭✭

    @Chaith.8256 said:

    @Coolguy.8702 said:

    @Chaith.8256 said:

    @Coolguy.8702 said:

    Okay so you're just anti-build diversity, got it.. shouldn't strive for that because 'war, ele, mesmer and revenant use mostly 1.'

    To actually address your comments, for PvP, Warrior:

    Warrior:
    Spellbreaker, A tier build.
    Core Warrior, A- tier build.

    Ele:
    Core Fresh Air, A tier build.
    Weaver (Sword Dagger), A- tier build.

    Mesmer:
    EU Dueling Mirage: A+ tier build.
    NA Inspiration Mirage A tier build.
    NA Power Mirage A- tier build
    Chronomancer: A tier build

    Revenant sucks, I agree.

    Engi has Holosmith rifle, at least we can interchange tools/explosives, but ideally having the build diversity that Mesmer has would be amazing.

    Engi also has the condi flamethrower build, and chronomanker is kinda kitten compared to mirage atm. Also I’ve yet to see a core warrior or core fresh air else in pvp. Engi has tons of build diversity man, you just gotta figure it out

  • RedSPINE.7845RedSPINE.7845 Member ✭✭✭

    @Coolguy.8702 Stop telling things if you want to convince us, show us ! :) Put some videos of people doing great with core engineer. I've tried to play condition but I got destroyed and quickly stopped but well, if you say it's good, I'm ready to trust you. But you won't convince anyone until you put some serious arguments on the table.

  • Lunateric.3708Lunateric.3708 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @RedSPINE.7845 said:
    @Coolguy.8702 Stop telling things if you want to convince us, show us ! :) Put some videos of people doing great with core engineer. I've tried to play condition but I got destroyed and quickly stopped but well, if you say it's good, I'm ready to trust you. But you won't convince anyone until you put some serious arguments on the table.

    Preferably high rank/level play too, if you don't mind.

  • bethekey.8314bethekey.8314 Member ✭✭✭

    @RedSPINE.7845 said:
    @Coolguy.8702 Stop telling things if you want to convince us, show us ! :)

    Convinced?

  • Chaith.8256Chaith.8256 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited November 19, 2017

    @Coolguy.8702 said:

    Engi also has the condi flamethrower build, and chronomanker is kinda kitten compared to mirage atm. Also I’ve yet to see a core warrior or core fresh air else in pvp. Engi has tons of build diversity man, you just gotta figure it out

    Yeah, the metabattle entry for Flamethrower condi uses my old customisation as I'm the only streamer for that niche, I am familiar with the build. It was a B+ tier build throughout HoT but now it's C tier or lower, depending on who you ask due to the lack of enemy Revenants and Druids with windows of vulnerability to condi burst. Combine an increase in natural enemies such as Scourges, Mesmers, and Firebrand condi clears, flamethrower condi and burn Guardian have gone down to kitten tier. I know my PvP builds.

    Chronomancer is not bad compared to Mirage. Very good conquest build still, on par with D/P Thief, Holosmith, and many others in terms of what they bring to the table. Also before you said you haven't seen core Ele in PvP, well, it owns in solo queue, watch Phantaram's stream some time, it's almost always better than Weaver.

    twitch.tv/chaithh
    Forum Lord Chaith

  • Coolguy.8702Coolguy.8702 Member ✭✭✭

    @Chaith.8256 said:

    @Coolguy.8702 said

    Yeah, the metabattle entry for Flamethrower condi uses my old customisation as I'm the only streamer for that niche, I am familiar with the build. It was a B+ tier build throughout HoT but now it's C tier or lower, depending on who you ask due to the lack of enemy Revenants and Druids with windows of vulnerability to condi burst. Combine an increase in natural enemies such as Scourges, Mesmers, and Firebrand condi clears, flamethrower condi and burn Guardian have gone down to kitten tier. I know my PvP builds.

    Chronomancer is not bad compared to Mirage. Very good conquest build still, on par with D/P Thief, Holosmith, and many others in terms of what they bring to the table. Also before you said you haven't seen core Ele in PvP, well, it owns in solo queue, watch Phantaram's stream some time, it's almost always better than Weaver.

    Comparing chrono to mirage is like comparing deadeye to daredevil, proved my point when you said scourge mesmer and firebrand condi clears basically need to be nerfed. But lemme ask you a question, What are you trying to get out of this? Even if all these buffs went thro (which will nevr happen) rifle holo will still be best build and core engi would, according to you, "still be bad" in everything execpt raiding in pve

  • Chaith.8256Chaith.8256 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited November 19, 2017

    @Coolguy.8702 said:

    @Chaith.8256 said:

    @Coolguy.8702 said

    Yeah, the metabattle entry for Flamethrower condi uses my old customisation as I'm the only streamer for that niche, I am familiar with the build. It was a B+ tier build throughout HoT but now it's C tier or lower, depending on who you ask due to the lack of enemy Revenants and Druids with windows of vulnerability to condi burst. Combine an increase in natural enemies such as Scourges, Mesmers, and Firebrand condi clears, flamethrower condi and burn Guardian have gone down to kitten tier. I know my PvP builds.

    Chronomancer is not bad compared to Mirage. Very good conquest build still, on par with D/P Thief, Holosmith, and many others in terms of what they bring to the table. Also before you said you haven't seen core Ele in PvP, well, it owns in solo queue, watch Phantaram's stream some time, it's almost always better than Weaver.

    Comparing chrono to mirage is like comparing deadeye to daredevil, proved my point when you said scourge mesmer and firebrand condi clears basically need to be nerfed. But lemme ask you a question, What are you trying to get out of this? Even if all these buffs went thro (which will nevr happen) rifle holo will still be best build and core engi would, according to you, "still be bad" in everything execpt raiding in pve

    You're saying according to me, if ArenaNet added every change I suggested that core Engi would still be bad? No, these suggestions would allow for a highly diverse selection of skills and traits to be used on core Engi, Scrapper, and Holosmith, establishing many builds of usefulness compared to the current PvP picks available, without increasing any build to S tier.

    What am I trying to get out of this? Well this is a forum post, I want to share my ideas. The goal would be to just discuss positive changes with people that are interested in the same. What are you trying to get out of this? Besides trying to seem knowledgable about PvP builds and getting x-posed

    twitch.tv/chaithh
    Forum Lord Chaith

  • Coolguy.8702Coolguy.8702 Member ✭✭✭
    edited November 19, 2017

    No not really, almost all your changes were just in the wrong direction and dum b

    What im trying to get of this is convincing you that core engi is perfectly fine which you should already know. You havent made any point towards me or given proof so your for sure not exposing nobody bro

  • Lunateric.3708Lunateric.3708 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Coolguy.8702 said:
    No not really, almost all your changes were just in the wrong direction and dum b

    What im trying to get of this is convincing you that core engi is perfectly fine which you should already know. You havent made any point towards me or given proof so your for sure not exposing nobody bro

    You can probably get VoDs from his twitch stream for hours upon hours of actual playtesting.

  • Dei Veien.2456Dei Veien.2456 Member ✭✭
    edited November 20, 2017

    What core engi build do you run that is in a good place?
    I can’t really imagine any decent sustained damage that is enough to help in group fights. Especially after changes to ip and grenades.
    Static discharge could be alright but it is reliant on taking utilities with low toolbelt cd’s and only hits one target in an aoe cleave heavy meta.

    Condi engi has long cd’s with few cover condis which make it lack lustre if you go up against anyone with decent removals.

    That being said. I find the majority of the time I still run tool kit and egun. Pulling people has still not gotten old especially when you can invite a range class like a dead eye into a team point fight. If only they would change the condi removal trait in holo line to be more friendly with kits (can someone please correct me and tell me they already did this)

  • Coolguy.8702Coolguy.8702 Member ✭✭✭

    Ideally, all the goal would be is to have at least one "Great" Core Engi build, and one "Great" Scrapper build, maybe with a few variants. I've just provided lots of extra possibilities.. anyway, if you're confused as to what I want to create still, I'm not explaining further

    Actually i think scrapper would still be good if it wasnt for scourge, kinda like druid on ranger, And gl to you if you think any of those changes are actually gonna happen.

  • Chaith.8256Chaith.8256 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited November 20, 2017

    @Coolguy.8702 said:
    And gl to you if you think any of those changes are actually gonna happen.

    Yeah no kidding, this is a dialogue with other players on the forums, not a balance dev meeting.

    @Coolguy.8702 said:

    Actually i think scrapper would still be good if it wasnt for scourge, kinda like druid on ranger

    Yep, it'd be great if it wasn't trash.

    twitch.tv/chaithh
    Forum Lord Chaith

  • Coolguy.8702Coolguy.8702 Member ✭✭✭
    edited November 20, 2017

    @Chaith.8256 said:

    Yeah no kidding, this is a dialogue with other players on the forums, not a balance dev meeting.

    Yep, it'd be great if it wasn't trash.

    Honestly dude just play another class if you keep calling engi trash, I understand you want engi to have tons of great builds but at least listen to what i gotta say, pre PoF engi had 3 descent builds (rifle, scrapper and flamethrower) then PoF came and it shrunk down to 1, this proves its just a powercreep issue that will be fixed lster on when all the nerfs come. And if you know none of those changes are gonna happen then why suggest em in the first place? Either way good luckto you mate, hope you go on 12 game losing streak with -30 per game :)

  • Chaith.8256Chaith.8256 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Coolguy.8702 said:

    Honestly dude just play another class if you keep calling engi trash, I understand you want engi to have tons of great builds but at least listen to what i gotta say, pre PoF engi had 3 descent builds (rifle, scrapper and flamethrower) then PoF came and it shrunk down to 1, this proves its just a powercreep issue that will be fixed lster on when all the nerfs come. And if you know none of those changes are gonna happen then why suggest em in the first place? Either way good luckto you mate, hope you go on 12 game losing streak with -30 per game :)

    I'm not playing trash tier Engi and Scrapper, no. Something you may not consider, even if Scourge is brought down to other A tier builds, it'll still always exist, and thus, pure Melee with abundant boons like Scrapper, Power Rev, these will always be useless as it is currently. Power creep is not the only issue that dictates what builds are useless, the OTHER META BUILDS play a key role too. So every expansion it's good to check to see if you completely erased certain specializations by upping the AoE corrupts and AoE conditions.

    twitch.tv/chaithh
    Forum Lord Chaith

  • Rezzet.3614Rezzet.3614 Member ✭✭✭
    edited November 20, 2017

    @bethekey.8314 said:

    @RedSPINE.7845 said:
    @Coolguy.8702 Stop telling things if you want to convince us, show us ! :)

    Convinced?

    He's legit, except on his opinion of engineer having proper build diversity

  • RedSPINE.7845RedSPINE.7845 Member ✭✭✭

    I guess engineer players really love engineers after all. At least, I do, and I won't ever play another class unless it's a kitten mad scientist throwing bombs acid and gas on the battlefield while switching between a KITTEN FLAMETHROWER and a shotgun. I kitten love engineer, and what I love too in a game is diversity, I play engineer because I like classes that can be creative, but in the spot the engineer is right now, I feel like being creative also comes with being dumb because the actual meta is one build to rule them all. That makes me pretty sad and I want to see great things, new things, surprise my opponents and my mates with new things aswell. But right now this is too sad, the surprise comes from the fact you'll melt incredibly quickly if not playing the right thing. All those long casting times on the engineer doesn't help too ... I don't really know how the other people feel but I won't ever play something different because I'm in love with the design of the engineer.

  • Chaith.8256Chaith.8256 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Crinn.7864 said:

    @Chaith.8256 said:

    @Coolguy.8702 said:

    Honestly dude just play another class if you keep calling engi trash, I understand you want engi to have tons of great builds but at least listen to what i gotta say, pre PoF engi had 3 descent builds (rifle, scrapper and flamethrower) then PoF came and it shrunk down to 1, this proves its just a powercreep issue that will be fixed lster on when all the nerfs come. And if you know none of those changes are gonna happen then why suggest em in the first place? Either way good luckto you mate, hope you go on 12 game losing streak with -30 per game :)

    I keep hoping scourge gets shot and killed turret engi style. Scourge brings nothing healthy to pvp and is as cancerous to fight as a thief is.

    Yup, cover the entire point in sand shades and instantly support your allies in it, but please no instant corrupts and blanketing the playing field with death. Whether its balanced or OP is irrelevant

    twitch.tv/chaithh
    Forum Lord Chaith

  • Ivantreil.3092Ivantreil.3092 Member ✭✭✭
    edited November 20, 2017

    Not core engi, but... been playing boon rifle with scrapper, after the Spellbreaker nerfs, i decided to ditch seekers and swap it to berserker, everything else remains similar....
    This build defenitely had better days before the PoF boon corruption fiesta, but hey, at least im still having some success, and saldy, what i hate is, that im having more success than any other build that has passed trough my mind, the build sucks against bunker druids, it requires a +1, but for anything else, ive been finding a way to kill it.

    Dodge engi? doesnt hit too hard, and not enough utilties/traits for make a build focused in evades, elixir r cant carry the build alone...

    Grenade engi? The toolbelt damage is orgasmic, but dear god, its hard af to hit anything, by the time you start hitting, you also start getting the aggro... something that you dont want...

    Tool kit engi? its impossible to survive the melee kitten of this meta, engi doesnt exist in melee range, it cant handle it, but what about the combo potential? welp, it doesnt hit hard enough for justify it...

    Healer engi?.... no.... just no, not even as a rez bot....

    My results so far.

  • Chaith.8256Chaith.8256 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Ivantreil.3092 said:
    Not core engi, but... been playing boon rifle with scrapper, after the Spellbreaker nerfs, i decided to ditch seekers and swap it to berserker, everything else remains similar....
    This build defenitely had better days before the PoF boon corruption fiesta, but hey, at least im still having some success, and saldy, what i hate is, that im having more success than any other build that has passed trough my mind, the build sucks against bunker druids, it requires a +1, but for anything else, ive been finding a way to kill it.

    Dodge engi? doesnt hit too hard, and not enough utilties/traits for make a build focused in evades, elixir r cant carry the build alone...

    Grenade engi? The toolbelt damage is orgasmic, but dear god, its hard af to hit anything, by the time you start hitting, you also start getting the aggro... something that you dont want...

    Tool kit engi? its impossible to survive the melee kitten of this meta, engi doesnt exist in melee range, it cant handle it, but what about the combo potential? welp, it doesnt hit hard enough for justify it...

    Healer engi?.... no.... just no, not even as a rez bot....

    My results so far.

    The most cohesive builds that exist for Core Engi in PvP (imo):

    Updated Condi engi, (Tool Kit and Power Wrench variant is fine.)
    http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vdAQJAqalUUhatY9VwvLQ+FLsFlYHNFPxYOOG1G4HWiBAA-jJRHQBJpMACfAAVY/BAcCAAA

    Wizard Grenades:
    http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vdAQFAUlUUhSsY9Vw6KQ+FLsF1XSlhHAYIuBBgYHNFPBA-jJRHQBA4BAMwLAgKLDQi9HAA

    Power Grenades:
    http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vdAQFAUlUUhSsY9Vw6KQ+FLTG046bfEEfWBCw3+S+zB-jJxHQBB8CAIi9HAwDAgelBAA

    And Scrapper has a Power Grenades variant as well:
    http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vdAQFAUlUUhSsY9Vw6KQ+FLTGl4zUABw3+kcPH9cn37NA-jJRQABo+AAkuMw3XAAA2fAA

    twitch.tv/chaithh
    Forum Lord Chaith

  • Coolguy.8702Coolguy.8702 Member ✭✭✭

    I'm not playing trash tier Engi and Scrapper, no. Something you may not consider, even if Scourge is brought down to other A tier builds, it'll still always exist, and thus, pure Melee with abundant boons like Scrapper, Power Rev, these will always be useless as it is currently. Power creep is not the only issue that dictates what builds are useless, the OTHER META BUILDS play a key role too. So every expansion it's good to check to see if you completely erased certain specializations by upping the AoE corrupts and AoE conditions.

    Scourge will get nerfed and those melee builds will be good again, theres no avoiding that. And tbh you're just proving my point of the game having power creep issues with this and your other comments.

  • Chaith.8256Chaith.8256 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Coolguy.8702 said:

    I'm not playing trash tier Engi and Scrapper, no. Something you may not consider, even if Scourge is brought down to other A tier builds, it'll still always exist, and thus, pure Melee with abundant boons like Scrapper, Power Rev, these will always be useless as it is currently. Power creep is not the only issue that dictates what builds are useless, the OTHER META BUILDS play a key role too. So every expansion it's good to check to see if you completely erased certain specializations by upping the AoE corrupts and AoE conditions.

    Scourge will get nerfed and those melee builds will be good again, theres no avoiding that. And tbh you're just proving my point of the game having power creep issues with this and your other comments.

    Every xpac, Necromancer evolves into doing more damage, and in a bigger radius. It's always the exact same role - teamfight carry and boon rip, accompanied by support.

    It'll get nerfed more in 3 months, I agree, but not enough to make Scrapper, Herald, Reaper, and especially not Engi good, Engi is weaker than elite specs. Here is why: ArenaNet will attempt to balance it, but refuse to nerf it to the ground and build it back in another healthier role. As long as it's not nerfed into the ground, Scourge will be in every game and keep those other classes in the trashcan. It's design is a hard counter to many things, even without power creep

    twitch.tv/chaithh
    Forum Lord Chaith

  • Coolguy.8702Coolguy.8702 Member ✭✭✭

    Every xpac, Necromancer evolves into doing more damage, and in a bigger radius. It's always the exact same role - teamfight carry and boon rip, accompanied by support.

    It'll get nerfed more in 3 months, I agree, but not enough to make Scrapper, Herald, Reaper, and especially not Engi good, Engi is weaker than elite specs. Here is why: ArenaNet will attempt to balance it, but refuse to nerf it to the ground and build it back in another healthier role. As long as it's not nerfed into the ground, Scourge will be in every game and keep those other classes in the trashcan. It's design is a hard counter to many things, even without power creep

    Well at least we agree on 1 thing.... but according to your logic even if all your changes were to go thro scrapper and core engi would still be trash since they're mostly melee builds (range on engi is very bad and lackluster, surprised you didn't put range type buffs in there) and scourge puts melee builds in the trash can.

  • Chaith.8256Chaith.8256 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited November 21, 2017

    @Coolguy.8702 said:

    Every xpac, Necromancer evolves into doing more damage, and in a bigger radius. It's always the exact same role - teamfight carry and boon rip, accompanied by support.

    It'll get nerfed more in 3 months, I agree, but not enough to make Scrapper, Herald, Reaper, and especially not Engi good, Engi is weaker than elite specs. Here is why: ArenaNet will attempt to balance it, but refuse to nerf it to the ground and build it back in another healthier role. As long as it's not nerfed into the ground, Scourge will be in every game and keep those other classes in the trashcan. It's design is a hard counter to many things, even without power creep

    Well at least we agree on 1 thing.... but according to your logic even if all your changes were to go thro scrapper and core engi would still be trash since they're mostly melee builds (range on engi is very bad and lackluster, surprised you didn't put range type buffs in there) and scourge puts melee builds in the trash can.

    No, I was saying nerfs alone to Scourge aren't going to make Engi viable.

    Scrapper, it'll still be countered, but it would have the superspeed buffs to escape, making it worth to run it on side nodes and avoid Scourge.

    Core Engi however would have a fighting chance to navigate fights vs. Scourge from range if it was allowed to fight on par with other core builds. Core Engi is not held back by Scourge unreasonably, even less than Holo and Holosmith is good. Core Engi is just worse than many core specs and elite specs. My proposed buffs to throw mine, overall defense, Rifle builds, these will allow core Engi to bomb scourges from range more safely than Holo with stronger rifles and grenades instead of mostly melee photon forge.

    twitch.tv/chaithh
    Forum Lord Chaith

  • Ghos.1326Ghos.1326 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Chaith.8256 said:
    I'm just going to leave turrets alone, it's a lost cause.

    Maybe one idea for turrets, let the overcharge abilities happen automatically at set intervals, instead of only happening once on deployment. give them a reason for being out. Also, buff their health and/or defense, since they are stationary and unable to move. Hope this sounds like a good idea!

    The greatest enemy to improvement, is ignorance. But the desire to learn will cast ignorance into the fire.

  • Chaith.8256Chaith.8256 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited November 21, 2017

    @Ghos.1326 said:

    @Chaith.8256 said:
    I'm just going to leave turrets alone, it's a lost cause.

    Maybe one idea for turrets, let the overcharge abilities happen automatically at set intervals, instead of only happening once on deployment. give them a reason for being out. Also, buff their health and/or defense, since they are stationary and unable to move. Hope this sounds like a good idea!

    On the contrary, if turrets were being designed to be survivable, auto-attacking sustained pressure, that's the main problem with them being able to be good.

    Honestly, this is what I'd do: reduce all Turret cooldown to 20s. Supply Crate CD reduced to 90s. Turrets no longer auto-attack. Cooldown starts immediately on use. Picking up turret still reduces CD by 5s. Turret duration reduced to 10s before detonating.

    Experimental Turrets: Rocket Turret's Retaliation increased from 3 to 5 seconds. Healing Turret Vigor increased from 3 to 5 seconds. Thumper Turret protection increased from 3 to 5 seconds. Flame Turret's might stacks increased from 3 to 5 stacks.

    twitch.tv/chaithh
    Forum Lord Chaith

  • Rezzet.3614Rezzet.3614 Member ✭✭✭

    Turretz do need a sustain buff though sure they shouldnt tank focused damage but they shouldnt explode before they visibly spawn to indirect attacks either