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How to balance every single thing that's bad on Engineer [PvP]

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  • Chaith.8256Chaith.8256 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited November 29, 2017

    @Rezzet.3614 said:
    Mortar kit should be a power kit with disrupting condies such as blind daze and chill, instead of asking for mortar to be reworked as a condi kit ask for nades to be un nerfed i say, wish mortar kit had the old mortar 5 too :c

    Agreed. On another note, the 28% damage nerf that to the Auto Attack was pretty unnecessary, it barely tickles for the drawback on how slow and cumbersome to hit things it is. My proposal in this thread's OP for that is: Orbital Command: New: In addition to its current effects, Your Orbital Strikes & Mortar Shot (Mortar #1) skill deals 33% additional damage.

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    Forum Lord Chaith

  • Rezzet.3614Rezzet.3614 Member ✭✭✭
    edited November 29, 2017

    I think orbital strike is fine because it is an unblockable attack, auto attack on the other hand should have damage matching a rangers lb max range auto at the very least , if it is gonna have punishingly slow projectiles make them have a proper payback and punish reckless enemies, heck i almost deleted my engineer when i boosted a revenant to 80 and started demolishing zergs in wvw with hammer skills hitting for 4k autos and 8-12k 2-3 and 5 skills wich offer ranged non projectile damage too

  • Chaith.8256Chaith.8256 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited November 29, 2017

    @Rezzet.3614 said:
    I think orbital strike is fine because it is an unblockable attack, auto attack on the other hand should have damage matching a rangers lb max range auto at the very least , if it is gonna have punishingly slow projectiles make them have a proper payback and punish reckless enemies, heck i almost deleted my engineer when i boosted a revenant to 80 and started demolishing zergs in wvw with hammer skills hitting for 4k autos and 8-12k 2-3 and 5 skills wich offer ranged non projectile damage too

    Orbital Strike does very unsatisfying damage for how long of a cast time and telegraph it is.. I've literally never used it to reactively counter a block because the time to react, cast and hit with Orbital strike is longer than any block duration.

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    Forum Lord Chaith

  • Rezzet.3614Rezzet.3614 Member ✭✭✭

    I havent been on in a while because of the hurricane but unless it has been nerfed its damage shouldnt be too bad if it still lands for up to 7k hits (WvW) as far as pvp goes i agree this skill is incredibly underwhelming even with the orbital command trait

  • Orbital strike is horrible lol its main purpose is that its a blast finisher.

  • Chaith.8256Chaith.8256 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited November 29, 2017

    @Rezzet.3614 said:
    I think orbital strike is fine because it is an unblockable attack, auto attack on the other hand should have damage matching a rangers lb max range auto at the very least , if it is gonna have punishingly slow projectiles make them have a proper payback and punish reckless enemies, heck i almost deleted my engineer when i boosted a revenant to 80 and started demolishing zergs in wvw with hammer skills hitting for 4k autos and 8-12k 2-3 and 5 skills wich offer ranged non projectile damage too

    Yeah, I still agree it's not fine. Look at your average abilities vs. Orbital Strike

    Jump Shot landing damage: 970 (2.3)
    Close range Blunderbus: 742 (1.76)
    Holo Leap: 704 (1.8)
    Corona Burst: 469 (1.2)
    Photon Forge auto attacks: 391 (1.0), 391 (1.0), (626 (1.6) x2)
    Orbital Strike: 354 (1.33)

    So if you get Orbital Strike to crit 7k, your Jump Shot would crit for 12,463 on the Landing only. So.. I'm aware Orbital Strike is a larger radius and unblockable but how do you justify Elite skill vs. standard skills being such a power difference?

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    Forum Lord Chaith

  • Rezzet.3614Rezzet.3614 Member ✭✭✭

    Upon further thinking yeah even 7k damage is a joke for a 2s cast time 40s cd
    Specially compared to stuff like ranger lb 5 and ele meteor shower,

    But heres where the problem lies in my opinion, the orbital command trait, it has a 15s cd so we cant ask for a damage buff because the trait uses the base orbital strike to damage instead of being an individual attack, on that note why not have base orbital strike have its cd lowered to 20s instead of buffing its damage?

  • Change the trait imo its horrible even the old one before it had more purpose making it strike twice and extending the mortar skill duration's . Explosions traitline should be about damage getting a free orbital strike every 15 secs on a 50% target is pretty horrible with how slow it is. It needs to either improve orbitals actual damage by a lot or give it some sort of special function. The most you get out of orbital strike is hitting a pve mob with it or using it as a blast finisher no ones going to stand in this thing unless they want to die or are CC'ed into oblivion without any sort of cc break or cleanse.

  • Rezzet.3614Rezzet.3614 Member ✭✭✭

    Wow even on a 20s cd its damage compared to other professions offers no threatening pressure

  • Rezzet.3614Rezzet.3614 Member ✭✭✭

    Its such a bothersome skill because it should go one of two ways , instant burst or area denial, i was thinkin of makin it an aoe pulse beam with an expanding radius like reaper gs 4 giving it massive damage and increasing its cd considerably, but a big buff to its current implementation would make it viable for pvp, i'm enjoying your discussions it makes me start takin into account pvp and balance it with wvw ideas

  • Rezzet.3614Rezzet.3614 Member ✭✭✭

    Orbital strike scaling should be bumped to 2.0 its base damage doubled

  • Chaith.8256Chaith.8256 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Rezzet.3614 said:
    Orbital strike scaling should be bumped to 2.0 its base damage doubled

    Yeahhh. It's really bad. For a cooldown, telegraph, cast time, wind up of that magnitude it needs a damage increase similar to what you're suggesting.

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    Forum Lord Chaith

  • Mortar kit suffers from a lack of "purity of purpose". They took away long range grenade kit and justified it with mortar kit having 1500 range and thus filling that purpose. But its skills are mostly designed as long range deployable combo fields (with the exception of the blind on flash i suppose) with low damage for both power and conditions.

    And 9 times out of ten if i need a combo field i want them at my feet to stack multiple finishers so the kit might as well be a supportive bomb kit in those situations.

    Sure it gives us access to poison and ice field but we had poison on the old grenades already and the same grenade kit also brought chill.

    If it could be made into a clunky nuke weapon sort of like a projectile based fire ele light we might at least utilize it in a wvw backline.

    The saving grace of orbital strike used to be the double damage and finisher thanks to siege rounds (if you ignore sacrificing a grandmaster trait for it), but with that gone the skill itself feels like one of those pve 1 skill bundles lying around.

    Don't get me wrong mortar is probably perfectly viable and balanced. I just think its a waste of space. And a missed opportunity for something fun.

    I remember the old days of combining a mortar engineer and a leg specialist warrior to perma immobilize people in wvw chokes. At least it was fun back then with concussion barrage and all. Impractical but sometimes awesome when you knocked a quarter of a squad off a cliff.

  • Chaith.8256Chaith.8256 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @miriforst.1290 said:
    Mortar kit suffers from a lack of "purity of purpose". They took away long range grenade kit and justified it with mortar kit having 1500 range and thus filling that purpose. But its skills are mostly designed as long range deployable combo fields (with the exception of the blind on flash i suppose) with low damage for both power and conditions.

    And 9 times out of ten if i need a combo field i want them at my feet to stack multiple finishers so the kit might as well be a supportive bomb kit in those situations.

    Sure it gives us access to poison and ice field but we had poison on the old grenades already and the same grenade kit also brought chill.

    If it could be made into a clunky nuke weapon sort of like a projectile based fire ele light we might at least utilize it in a wvw backline.

    The saving grace of orbital strike used to be the double damage and finisher thanks to siege rounds (if you ignore sacrificing a grandmaster trait for it), but with that gone the skill itself feels like one of those pve 1 skill bundles lying around.

    Don't get me wrong mortar is probably perfectly viable and balanced. I just think its a waste of space. And a missed opportunity for something fun.

    I remember the old days of combining a mortar engineer and a leg specialist warrior to perma immobilize people in wvw chokes. At least it was fun back then with concussion barrage and all. Impractical but sometimes awesome when you knocked a quarter of a squad off a cliff.

    Yep, use Mortar #2-5 as a kind of bomb kit while you play a node-fighter build. That's the actual purity of purpose. It never had any relation to replacing Grenades or utilizing 1500 range. It may as well have 300 range for all this kit is good for.

    Entirely wasted potential..

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    Forum Lord Chaith

  • Rezzet.3614Rezzet.3614 Member ✭✭✭

    @Chaith.8256 said:

    @miriforst.1290 said:
    Mortar kit suffers from a lack of "purity of purpose". They took away long range grenade kit and justified it with mortar kit having 1500 range and thus filling that purpose. But its skills are mostly designed as long range deployable combo fields (with the exception of the blind on flash i suppose) with low damage for both power and conditions.

    And 9 times out of ten if i need a combo field i want them at my feet to stack multiple finishers so the kit might as well be a supportive bomb kit in those situations.

    Sure it gives us access to poison and ice field but we had poison on the old grenades already and the same grenade kit also brought chill.

    If it could be made into a clunky nuke weapon sort of like a projectile based fire ele light we might at least utilize it in a wvw backline.

    The saving grace of orbital strike used to be the double damage and finisher thanks to siege rounds (if you ignore sacrificing a grandmaster trait for it), but with that gone the skill itself feels like one of those pve 1 skill bundles lying around.

    Don't get me wrong mortar is probably perfectly viable and balanced. I just think its a waste of space. And a missed opportunity for something fun.

    I remember the old days of combining a mortar engineer and a leg specialist warrior to perma immobilize people in wvw chokes. At least it was fun back then with concussion barrage and all. Impractical but sometimes awesome when you knocked a quarter of a squad off a cliff.

    Yep, use Mortar #2-5 as a kind of bomb kit while you play a node-fighter build. That's the actual purity of purpose. It never had any relation to replacing Grenades or utilizing 1500 range. It may as well have 300 range for all this kit is good for.

    Entirely wasted potential..

    If anything it feels like mortar kit was made as an excuse to nerf grenade kit, the promised mortar kit sounded awesome vs what we got, with longer lasting fields and explosives that applied aoe finishers when they landed that one functionality would ve made mortar kit an amazing control weapon even if it had 1/4 the damage it has now.

  • Chaith.8256Chaith.8256 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Rezzet.3614 said:

    @Chaith.8256 said:

    @miriforst.1290 said:
    Mortar kit suffers from a lack of "purity of purpose". They took away long range grenade kit and justified it with mortar kit having 1500 range and thus filling that purpose. But its skills are mostly designed as long range deployable combo fields (with the exception of the blind on flash i suppose) with low damage for both power and conditions.

    And 9 times out of ten if i need a combo field i want them at my feet to stack multiple finishers so the kit might as well be a supportive bomb kit in those situations.

    Sure it gives us access to poison and ice field but we had poison on the old grenades already and the same grenade kit also brought chill.

    If it could be made into a clunky nuke weapon sort of like a projectile based fire ele light we might at least utilize it in a wvw backline.

    The saving grace of orbital strike used to be the double damage and finisher thanks to siege rounds (if you ignore sacrificing a grandmaster trait for it), but with that gone the skill itself feels like one of those pve 1 skill bundles lying around.

    Don't get me wrong mortar is probably perfectly viable and balanced. I just think its a waste of space. And a missed opportunity for something fun.

    I remember the old days of combining a mortar engineer and a leg specialist warrior to perma immobilize people in wvw chokes. At least it was fun back then with concussion barrage and all. Impractical but sometimes awesome when you knocked a quarter of a squad off a cliff.

    Yep, use Mortar #2-5 as a kind of bomb kit while you play a node-fighter build. That's the actual purity of purpose. It never had any relation to replacing Grenades or utilizing 1500 range. It may as well have 300 range for all this kit is good for.

    Entirely wasted potential..

    If anything it feels like mortar kit was made as an excuse to nerf grenade kit, the promised mortar kit sounded awesome vs what we got, with longer lasting fields and explosives that applied aoe finishers when they landed that one functionality would ve made mortar kit an amazing control weapon even if it had 1/4 the damage it has now.

    You're referring to the old Mortar GM trait, which was much better, yeah?

    Even then it still wasn't good enough to be a self reliant weapon, the Cleave was still only half of your close range potential. I doubt getting the old trait back would be a good trade if you hypothetically had 1/4th the damage.

    I wouldn't classify mortar as a control kit, though.

    For me, Mortar is undertuned if you can't contribute to a teamfight or stop a revive by raining infinite Mortar Shells on top of a key location. Pure combo field utility is not enough, an elite skill should increase your fighting power in situations where you're able to hit every mortar shell.

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    Forum Lord Chaith

  • Rezzet.3614Rezzet.3614 Member ✭✭✭
    edited November 30, 2017

    @Chaith.8256 said:

    @Rezzet.3614 said:

    @Chaith.8256 said:

    @miriforst.1290 said:
    Mortar kit suffers from a lack of "purity of purpose". They took away long range grenade kit and justified it with mortar kit having 1500 range and thus filling that purpose. But its skills are mostly designed as long range deployable combo fields (with the exception of the blind on flash i suppose) with low damage for both power and conditions.

    And 9 times out of ten if i need a combo field i want them at my feet to stack multiple finishers so the kit might as well be a supportive bomb kit in those situations.

    Sure it gives us access to poison and ice field but we had poison on the old grenades already and the same grenade kit also brought chill.

    If it could be made into a clunky nuke weapon sort of like a projectile based fire ele light we might at least utilize it in a wvw backline.

    The saving grace of orbital strike used to be the double damage and finisher thanks to siege rounds (if you ignore sacrificing a grandmaster trait for it), but with that gone the skill itself feels like one of those pve 1 skill bundles lying around.

    Don't get me wrong mortar is probably perfectly viable and balanced. I just think its a waste of space. And a missed opportunity for something fun.

    I remember the old days of combining a mortar engineer and a leg specialist warrior to perma immobilize people in wvw chokes. At least it was fun back then with concussion barrage and all. Impractical but sometimes awesome when you knocked a quarter of a squad off a cliff.

    Yep, use Mortar #2-5 as a kind of bomb kit while you play a node-fighter build. That's the actual purity of purpose. It never had any relation to replacing Grenades or utilizing 1500 range. It may as well have 300 range for all this kit is good for.

    Entirely wasted potential..

    If anything it feels like mortar kit was made as an excuse to nerf grenade kit, the promised mortar kit sounded awesome vs what we got, with longer lasting fields and explosives that applied aoe finishers when they landed that one functionality would ve made mortar kit an amazing control weapon even if it had 1/4 the damage it has now.

    You're referring to the old Mortar GM trait, which was much better, yeah?

    Even then it still wasn't good enough to be a self reliant weapon, the Cleave was still only half of your close range potential. I doubt getting the old trait back would be a good trade if you hypothetically had 1/4th the damage.

    I wouldn't classify mortar as a control kit, though.

    For me, Mortar is undertuned if you can't contribute to a teamfight or stop a revive by raining infinite Mortar Shells on top of a key location. Pure combo field utility is not enough, an elite skill should increase your fighting power in situations where you're able to hit every mortar shell.

    Thats where the non implemented dev mentioned idea would ve shined by applying aoe field effects continually it might not have offered damage but autoing chills and cleanses poisons would ve been big in team fights

    But yeah i dont think any engineer disagrees with me saying mortar auto needs its damage up to ranger lb max range or higher and orbitalbstrike having its base damage and scaling doubled

  • Rezzet.3614Rezzet.3614 Member ✭✭✭

    Gotta say i would love to see the original post ideas make it into core engi, at least the weapon ones specially the skilled marksman , also med kit changes, the only suggestion im not agreeing with is juggernaut affecting pistol and rifle it would make engi broken in some 1v1s unless i misunderstood its functionality

  • Chaith.8256Chaith.8256 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited November 30, 2017

    @Rezzet.3614 said:
    the only suggestion im not agreeing with is juggernaut affecting pistol and rifle it would make engi broken in some 1v1s unless i misunderstood its functionality

    It works like this,

    • After entering combat, if you're in Pistol/Rifle/Flamethrower you get a tick of stability/might on the 5th second.
    • If at any point you switch out of those affected weapons/kits, upon entering it again you have to start counting to 5 again before getting boons.

    The 5 second dead zone would prevent builds that rely on frequent usage of Elixir S, Photon Forge, Grenade Kit, etc, from gaining significant stability uptime. Any interruption of having a Rifle/Pistol or Flamethrower equipped.

    Would it be possible to make some strong builds that camp Rifle, Rifle/FT, or Pistol/FT? Hopefully. Pretend like all the changes to core Engi I suggested went through:

    For example,

    But maybe there could be another Holosmith variant that could be an option. With Enhanced Capacity Storage Unit you actually spend more time in Rifle than the Vent Exhaust variant. If Exceed skills got the boosts they need too, it'd open up some more options. I doubt it'd be as good as Explosives' dodge roll nukes or be as survivable as Tools' Rocket Boots, but extra stability would be interesting.

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    Forum Lord Chaith

  • Rezzet.3614Rezzet.3614 Member ✭✭✭

    Agreed a little stability would go a long way for engineer , core engi seems to lack proper stability , and boon strip we need the acidic elixirs trait back or somethin. Dint throw mine use to remove 3 boons in the past? It seems a detail not mentioned in wiki

  • Chaith.8256Chaith.8256 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Rezzet.3614 said:
    Agreed a little stability would go a long way for engineer , core engi seems to lack proper stability , and boon strip we need the acidic elixirs trait back or somethin. Dint throw mine use to remove 3 boons in the past? It seems a detail not mentioned in wiki

    Throw mine always removed 1 as my memory serves. My suggestion is to make it remove stab to always be a guaranteed disrupt. Mine Field I suggested to become strong AoE boon removal if multiple clustered enemies move inside it.

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  • Rezzet.3614Rezzet.3614 Member ✭✭✭

    Oh yes, i personally loved minefield it beats what we got currently infinetly, and yeah throw mine removing stab is perfect i forgot its an amazing gadget after the trait was overhauled

  • Chaith.8256Chaith.8256 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Rezzet.3614 said:
    Oh yes, i personally loved minefield it beats what we got currently infinetly, and yeah throw mine removing stab is perfect i forgot its an amazing gadget after the trait was overhauled

    Yeah it's not bad right now. Really it's mine field that is a dead utility, it's just incredibly awkward and often not worth a 1s cast

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  • Rezzet.3614Rezzet.3614 Member ✭✭✭

    Yeah the only times i used minefield was as the good ol 100 nade Idea , stealth or somethin run and hug the enemy and mash the toolbelt skill hoping the mines insta detonate without spreading

  • Chaith.8256Chaith.8256 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited December 4, 2017

    Additional suggestions to Holosmith:

    6) Vent Exhaust: New: Reduced Heat Loss from 15 to 12.

    7) Photonic Blasting Module: New: In addition to its current effects, while overheated, all heat % bonuses are energized to the highest tier.

    8) Heat Bonuses added for mainhand weapons:

    • Pistol #1: 50+ heat, 1s burn. 100+ heat, 2s burn.
    • Pistol #2: 50+ heat, Fires 7 shots (2.25s cast). 100+ heat, Fires 10 shots (3s cast).
    • Pistol #3: 50+ heat, +100% damage. 100+ heat, +200% damage.
    • Rifle #1: 50+ heat, 4s vuln. 100+ heat, two 4s vuln.
    • Rifle #2: 50+ heat, additional .5s immobilize. 100+ heat, additional 1s immobilize.
    • Rifle #3: 50+ heat, 2s cripple. 100+ heat, 4s cripple.

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  • RedSPINE.7845RedSPINE.7845 Member ✭✭✭

    PBM is already the strongest grandmaster trait in PvE so it might be too strong after that, but this change makes sense IMO. I do think it's too strong anyway x)

    Why do you want this change on Vent Exhaust ?

    I personally don't care at all about Holosmith, I play it because that's too strong compared to core engie or Scrapper, but find it boring and not that inspired in the end.

  • Lunateric.3708Lunateric.3708 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited December 5, 2017

    I think ECS should be remade or baked into the elite so they can add another meaningful grandmaster trait there. PBM is the undisputed king in PvE and the on demand heat lost on Vent Exhaust makes it too strong to ignore in anything PvP related. ECS is basically not fulfilling any niches.

  • Chaith.8256Chaith.8256 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @RedSPINE.7845 said:
    PBM is already the strongest grandmaster trait in PvE so it might be too strong after that, but this change makes sense IMO. I do think it's too strong anyway x)

    Why do you want this change on Vent Exhaust ?

    I personally don't care at all about Holosmith, I play it because that's too strong compared to core engie or Scrapper, but find it boring and not that inspired in the end.

    I don't mind explaining the logic:

    Vent Exhaust with a perma vigor build and energy sigil is allowing 80% forge uptime with the minesweeper build playstyle. The other two GM's playstyle offer closer to 50% forge uptime. Vent Exhaust is bringing good damage comparable with the other two options already, in PvP.

    Photonic Blasting Module, strongest option in PvE, but what skills do you use in Raids that benefit from heat? Not exceeds, but it might finally push Sword ahead of spamming bombs as filler for Raid damage.

    Coupled with heat bonuses added to weapons, in PvP it could be an option now.

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    Forum Lord Chaith

  • Chaith.8256Chaith.8256 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited December 5, 2017

    @Lunateric.3708 said:
    I think ECS should be remade or baked into the elite so they can add another meaningful grandmaster trait there. PBM is the undisputed king in PvE and the on demand heat lost on Vent Exhaust makes it too strong to ignore in anything PvP related. ECS is basically not fulfilling any niches.

    That is not 100% true, ECS and its playstyle is arguably better in teamfights where you rely on a might stacked Rifle while cooling down. In teamfights the Vent Exhaust build simply gets countered harder by Scourge because 80% of the time you're wallowing around in red circles with weakness. Notice if you've watched Zan's stream he only teamfights or approaches a Scourge if he's absolutely forced to?

    Also, if Exceed builds become viable as per my suggestions, ECSU allows you to get back the might from losing elixirs and most importantly keep a huge uptime on the +50% heat bonuses.

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    Forum Lord Chaith

  • RedSPINE.7845RedSPINE.7845 Member ✭✭✭

    I don't think sword will ever be used since it forces you to equip a shield that has no damage value at all ...

  • Chaith.8256Chaith.8256 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @RedSPINE.7845 said:
    I don't think sword will ever be used since it forces you to equip a shield that has no damage value at all ...

    PvE Raiding, you'd run Blowtorch, dude. According to PvE math nerds, after big sword buffs last patch it still falls short of bombs but no longer by a huge divide.

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    Forum Lord Chaith

  • RedSPINE.7845RedSPINE.7845 Member ✭✭✭

    Ok for filling with sword instead of bombs, but how do you replace the Rifle's damages with a utility slot ?

  • Chaith.8256Chaith.8256 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @RedSPINE.7845 said:
    Ok for filling with sword instead of bombs, but how do you replace the Rifle's damages with a utility slot ?

    Pretty sure you'd still take bombs for the Big Ol' Bomb and Fire Bomb. But now you're skeptical that Sword still won't be good. Your concern before was that my suggestion for PBM would be too good in PvE, but clearly in PvE, nobody right now is even taking things with heat bonuses.

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    Forum Lord Chaith

  • RedSPINE.7845RedSPINE.7845 Member ✭✭✭

    You're right outside of Laser Disk and Prime Light Beam, that are easily used when at +50 heat. So your goal is to buff PBM in the PvP scene ?

  • Shirlias.8104Shirlias.8104 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited December 5, 2017

    I see only buffs.
    Is this the way to balance eng ( didn't see in SPvP but, currently in wvw can 1 sec oneshot a 15k health class zerk )?

  • Chaith.8256Chaith.8256 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited December 5, 2017

    @RedSPINE.7845 said:
    You're right outside of Laser Disk and Prime Light Beam, that are easily used when at +50 heat. So your goal is to buff PBM in the PvP scene ?

    Yeah. I suggested changing Solar Focusing Lens to additionally protect the Holo from the DoT of Overheating. PBM would protect the Holo from direct Overheat damage. Taking both of those with a Wizard amulet combined with heat bonuses added to Pistol mainhand, I wouldn't underestimate a build that could use PBM or even ECSU with Pistol Mainhand and actually kick butt with it.

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    Forum Lord Chaith

  • Chaith.8256Chaith.8256 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited December 5, 2017

    @Shirlias.8104 said:
    I see only buffs.
    Is this the way to balance eng ( didn't see in SPvP but, currently in wvw can 1 sec oneshot a 15k health class zerk )?

    Well this is a thread about balancing the bad things on Engineer. If you don't know every build choice in every Engi spec across all game modes you may assume there are straight buffs to already meta things, but there are none.

    Edit: I proposed to shave Vent Exhaust and Crystal Configuration: Eclipse, as they're a bit stifling to trait diversity. So not all are proposed buffs :+1:

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    Forum Lord Chaith

  • Shirlias.8104Shirlias.8104 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Chaith.8256 said:

    @Shirlias.8104 said:
    I see only buffs.
    Is this the way to balance eng ( didn't see in SPvP but, currently in wvw can 1 sec oneshot a 15k health class zerk )?

    Well this is a thread about balancing the bad things on Engineer. If you don't know every build choice in every Engi spec across all game modes you may assume there are straight buffs to already meta things, but there are none.

    I do understand your point ( my toughts were about the possibility that spike dmg could somehow have been incrased ).
    But also some modifies seems to transform him in a way better jack of the trade ( which, as all hybrids, is something imho not needed ).

    ie

    Turret Related Changes:
    3.) Advanced Turrets: Currently: Turrets create reflective shield, take reduced damage. New: In addition to it's current effects, turrets knock back when destroyed.

    Utility Skills
    1.) Utility Goggles: Currently: Break stuns, gain fury and immunity to blind for ten seconds. New: Break stuns, gain fury and immunity to all debilitating conditions (blind, weakness, vulnerability.) (Note: Lesser Utility Goggles also provides immunity to all debilitating conditions, but reduced duration from 10 to 6 seconds to compensate.)

    Remember this is also a passive trait, and the immunity to all of those contidions would mean ( +0%/25% dmg reduction, No endurance penalty or critical hit limitation ). Seems too strong. Also, what does immunity means? Suppression? Cleanse and cannot be applied?

    3.) Slick Shoes: Currently: Spray oil, knocking enemies down for 2 seconds, affects once per target. New: Given two ammunition, ammunition recharge, 20 seconds. 2s ICD between using ammunition. (Note: Using a second ammunition allows you to knock a target down a second time.)

    One single use is really good, but 2?

    4.) Throw Mine: Currently: Throw a mine that damages, knocks back, and removes a boon. New: Instead of removing a boon, Throw mine can only remove stability.

    It will remove stability after of before detonation? i mean, will be the only skill which cleanse the target from stability before making its cc or it will knockback those without stability and also cleanse stability?

    6.) Toss Elixir R: Currently: Remove conditions and Revive allies. New: Cooldown Reduced to 75s, now only removes damaging conditions.

    This would definitely be too good.

    Healing Skills
    2.) Toss Elixir H: New: Grants all boons at 50% of base duration instead of RNG

    Wouldn't this be too good?
    I don't know if these mod is because the healing turret is broken as hell if compared to the other heals or anything else.

    Core Engineer Traits
    1.) Juggernaut: Currently: Gain might and stability while wielding a flamethrower. New: Interval extended to 5s, stab duration increased to 5s, might stacks increased from 1 to 2 to reflect larger interval. Effect extended to wielding Pistol mainhand & Rifle as well. Now in combat only. (Note: The five second interval until the boons are given are now always reset to 0 when swapping to a weapon/kit that's not affected by this trait. This 5 second wait time is to prevent Photon Forge or other kit users from gaining Stability until a full interval has passed.)

    Endless stability + might without using a not that good kit?

    5.) Serrated Steel: Currently: Bleeding duration increased by 33%. New: In addition, all poison you apply no longer reduces healing effectiveness - bleeding now reduces healing effectiveness by 33%

    Boom.

    Inventions
    5.) Bunker down, now 'Short Fuse'. Currently: Bombs have shorter fuse time and 20% reduced recharge. New: In addition to its current effects, the first Bomb Kit #1 skill used inside a Bomb Kit combo field will generate a blast finisher.

    Free blast ( not sure they could make it work only inside a bomb kit combo field though ).

    Alchemy
    5.) Iron-Blooded: Currently: Reduce damage taken by 2% for every boon on you. New: When inside an Engineering Kit, gain protection. Interval: 1s, duration 1s. In combat

    You mean that in combat you will have, if wielding and eng kit, prot 1s every 1s?

    Tools:
    1.) Static Discharge: New: Damage Increased by 25%. All static discharges now deal consistent damage with the tooltip and are always directed to the current target.

    Scrapper
    Traits
    1.) Shocking Speed - Currently: Leap & Blast finishers in lightning fields applies 3 seconds of superspeed around you. New: Instead of current effects, Decisive Renown grants shocking aura those affected by it for 3 seconds.
    3.) Impact Savant - The duration of all outgoing disables are increased by 25%, and the duration of all disables are reduced by 25%, instead of just affecting stun/daze.
    4.) Expert Examination - Disabling (not just stuns and dazes) a Foe applies vulnerability and weakens them. Duration of Weakness and Vulnerability decreased from 6 seconds to 4 seconds. (With condition duration and a CC focused build this could stack too much weakness otherwise.)

    Shocking aura + 25% more disable duration ( every kind of disable effect ) + vulnerability and weakness on disable?
    Scrapper ( or eng ) could have different cc and not necessarily stun/daze, ok but i woah... control + debuff + damage mitigation.

    Holosmith

    Utility Skills
    3.) Spectrum Shield - always has 15 second cooldown, activating Spectrum Shield above the heat threshold causes it to (corona) burst when it's duration ends.

    Really? not only down from 30 to 15 sec ( 20% of the time you will have a -50% dmg from physical and condi dmg, and also it can be used as BS. but also a corona burst when it expires? )

    Traits
    1.) Solar Focusing Lens: Currently: First few attacks after entering Photon Forge or Overheating do 10% more damage and burn. In addition to its current effects, prevents the Engineer from suffering from the self damage over time component of overheating. (Note: This trait combined with Photonic Blasting Module will allow you to take no damage from Overheating.)

    2.) Heat Therapy scaling with Healing Power - increased from 0.006 to 0.025. With 500 healing this allows Heat Therapy to heal around 19% more than with a Marauder stat load. (Note: Currently, 500 healing makes heat therapy 4.6% better, needless to say, that's a pitiful increase for the opportunity cost on running an amulet like Avatar/Sages/Celestial over getting Power/Precision/Ferocity/Vit/Toughness)

    That's why is bad.
    Every build which goes celestial is bad ( as it were the core eng, the elementalist, and so on ).
    Why would you push in a tanky invincible ( a little slower ) meta?

    5.) Crystal Configuration: Zephyr - Currently: Holo Leap removes movement impairing conditions and grants superspeed instead of swiftness. New: Instead of granting superspeed, increases the attack range of Holo leap from 600 to 900, (travel distance of Holo Leap from 450 to 750.) Adds .75s evade. This trait increases the cooldown of Holo Leap to 5s, and increases swiftness duration to 5s.

    2 sec cd remove imparing movement effects and 900 travel dinstance.
    Better than unhindered comabatant ( which works on dodge and block base regen and vigor regen for 4 sec if you remove any imparing movement effect ).
    Broken as hell ( TIER 2 )

    I don't really know the eng ( i just play sometimes with the holosmith ), but many modifies seem too good compared to the alternatives ( and other classes alternatives ).

  • Dirame.8521Dirame.8521 Member ✭✭✭
    edited December 5, 2017

    @Chaith.8256 said:

    I figured out what it would take to create some real build diversity across Core Engineer, Scrapper, and Holosmith in PvP primarily

    HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH!!!! HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH!!!!! HAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAH!!

    I just came here to gloat. DO YOU REMEMBER WHAT I SAID CHAITH??? DO YOU REMEMBER WHAT I SAID BEFORE THE EXPANSION LAUNCHED??? I said something summed up with words: "The Holosmith was not going to create ANY build diversity AT ALL and we would be brought back to square one begging for diversity" and you and a few others thought I was wrong..... hehehehehe.....

    I do apologize though Chaith, because I have literally been waiting patiently to see you make a post like this. And now that you have, I can rest easy and feel validated. Boy If only I had my old post history....

    Jeez... took you long enough to figure out that Anet messed up with the Holosmith's diversity.

    Just to back up how far back I spoke about the Holosmith's lack of diversity, here's a link from my twitter from August:

    Anyway, that's it from me. Got my "i told you so" out of my system. hehehehe.....

    That said though..... i would really like to school some Scourge necros on how powerful they think they are.....but I can't.... so... /sigh

  • Chaith.8256Chaith.8256 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited December 5, 2017

    @Shirlias.8104 said:
    I don't really know the eng ( i just play sometimes with the holosmith ), but many modifies seem too good compared to the alternatives ( and other classes alternatives ).

    Unless you've used and even have been on the receiving end of all the utilities and traits I'm proposing to buff, it may be easy to think "oh those are fine, no need to buff." Ever seen Slick Shoes, Throw Mine, Turrets, Bomb Kit, utility goggles,successfully reviving an ally with the help of Toss Elixir R, or seen an Engi not using HgH, Scrapper not using Rapid Regeneration, and a Holosmith not running stability?

    Also, you didn't read Crystal Configuration: Zephyr at all, I proposed that trait modify Holo Leap go from 2s to a 5s CD, and from 450 travel to 750 travel distance, in addition to evading. As mentioned before, consider to take Zephyr you will lose all stability on Holosmith, using Crystal Configuration: Eclipse with the meta build, you're losing about 66% global uptime of stability.

    My proposed Juggernaut competes with Incendiary Ammunition. It's not free might and Stability for all because you have to take Firearms, be in combat, and wait 5 seconds in Pistols/Rifle/FT to get anything. What builds do that and don't go into Elixir S, or Photon Forge, or Elixir Gun, Bomb, Grenade, or tool kit? You'll only get a nice uptime of stability uptime from a Pistol condi build that's giving up incendiary ammunition, or a rifle camping build like static discharge.

    Anyway, your input is appreciated, I'm considering withdrawing my proposal to change passive utility goggles because even with reduced duration from 10s to 6s, immunity to weakness may result in an overall minor buff vs. people's Scourge freelo (can't have that).

    twitch.tv/chaithh
    Forum Lord Chaith

  • Shirlias.8104Shirlias.8104 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Chaith.8256 said:
    My proposed Juggernaut competes with Incendiary Ammunition. It's not free might and Stability for all because you have to take Firearms, be in combat, and wait 5 seconds in Pistols/Rifle/FT to get anything. What builds do that and don't go into Elixir S, or Photon Forge, or Elixir Gun, Bomb, Grenade, or tool kit? You'll only get a nice uptime of stability uptime from a Pistol condi build that's giving up incendiary ammunition, or a rifle camping build like static discharge.

    The point is that modifying skills enough to get em competitive as the meta ones could bring a new powerful meta instead.
    What i mean is that while you tried to modify some skills in order to get them at least viable, some of them could probably replace existent skills or traits, which are currently meta ( and which means, the eng will indirectly get a buff ).

    The meta is something dynamic, which eventually change because of modifies.
    Working on a skill which is way too op in order to balance it is a thing.
    Working on different skills which are way too underpower in order to get em competitive is imho more risky.

    That was my point ( though, as thief, i do understand the fact that having some better traits and skills would really be something ).

  • Chaith.8256Chaith.8256 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited December 5, 2017

    @Dirame.8521 said:

    >@Chaith.8256 said: I figured out what it would take to create some real build diversity across Core Engineer, Scrapper, and Holosmith in PvP primarily

    HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH!!!! HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH!!!!! HAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAH!!

    I just came here to gloat. DO YOU REMEMBER WHAT I SAID CHAITH??? DO YOU REMEMBER WHAT I SAID BEFORE THE EXPANSION LAUNCHED??? I said something summed up with words: "The Holosmith was not going to create ANY build diversity AT ALL and we would be brought back to square one begging for diversity" and you and a few others thought I was wrong..... hehehehehe.....

    I do apologize though Chaith, because I have literally been waiting patiently to see you make a post like this. And now that you have, I can rest easy and feel validated. Boy If only I had my old post history....

    Jeez... took you long enough to figure out that Anet messed up with the Holosmith's diversity.

    Just to back up how far back I spoke about the Holosmith's lack of diversity, here's a link from my twitter from August:

    Anyway, that's it from me. Got my "i told you so" out of my system. hehehehe.....

    That said though..... i would really like to school some Scourge necros on how powerful they think they are.....but I can't.... so... /sigh

    In PvE you have Photonic Blasting Module, Laser Disk, in PvP there's two distinct A tier Holosmith PvP builds out there. You can use ECSU or Vent Exhaust, Tools or Explosives. A pool of 5 good utilities that work at A tier performance. I don't think it's the right time to gloat.. Do you think many PoF specs has that much variety at a high tier level?

    Just because I'm offering suggestions to potentially bring every Holosmith mechanic to par in PvP doesn't mean it's woefully lacking. More of a perfectionist's suggestions but would be content if even one was implemented.

    The Engineer lacks diversity because Holosmith is the only hotness whereas all professions besides Necro and Rev, and Engi have multiple core/HoT/PoF builds that are usable.

    You were foolishly disappointed in Holosmith for it's lack of awesomeness, thinking that bringing purely damage was somehow bad. I think that's been proven wrong in any case

    twitch.tv/chaithh
    Forum Lord Chaith

  • Dirame.8521Dirame.8521 Member ✭✭✭
    edited December 5, 2017

    First off, let me apologize for my post because I think I really turned it up to 11 on my gloating. Sorry about that, hope we can have a more civil conversation. Okay now unto replying to you.

    @Chaith.8256 said:
    You were foolishly disappointed in Holosmith for it's lack of awesomeness, thinking that bringing purely damage was somehow bad. I think that's been proven wrong in any case

    Unfortunately we can't view my post or my videos anymore because they are both deleted but, I never said the Holosmith's pure damage was bad or not awesome (in fact I said it was too good and extremely fun. Perfect example being my twitter post that I linked), I just said, "Focusing on pure damage was going to lead to boredom after a month and we would eventually get a forum post like yours within a month" and guess what? You done went and proved me right.

    The Engineer lacks diversity because Holosmith is the only hotness whereas all professions besides Necro and Rev, and Engi have multiple core/HoT/PoF builds that are usable.

    What you've just said here is exactly what I and the other people who agreed with me, predicted.

  • Chaith.8256Chaith.8256 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited December 5, 2017

    @Dirame.8521 said:
    What you've just said here is exactly what I and the other people who agreed with me predicted.

    It's not Holosmiths fault that Scrapper and Core Engi are terrible!!

    Edit: What is the "I told you so" part about giving us Holosmith? Are you implying it would have been better for Engi, Scrapper, and Holo to all be awful? What did you want out of Holosmith that you didn't get?

    twitch.tv/chaithh
    Forum Lord Chaith

  • Dirame.8521Dirame.8521 Member ✭✭✭

    @Chaith.8256 said:

    @Dirame.8521 said:
    What you've just said here is exactly what I and the other people who agreed with me predicted.

    It's not Holosmiths fault that Scrapper and Core Engi are terrible!!

    Edit: What is the "I told you so" part about giving us Holosmith? Are you implying it would have been better for Engi, Scrapper, and Holo to all be awful? What did you want out of Holosmith that you didn't get?

    You've said it yourself; More Build Diversity. The holosmith itself could've provided that if Mr. Rob would've been so kind but he himself replied indirectly to my complaints by saying something like "Yea, it's focused on one thing so, that's how I want it. That's what you get."

  • Chaith.8256Chaith.8256 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Dirame.8521 said:

    @Chaith.8256 said:

    @Dirame.8521 said:
    What you've just said here is exactly what I and the other people who agreed with me predicted.

    It's not Holosmiths fault that Scrapper and Core Engi are terrible!!

    Edit: What is the "I told you so" part about giving us Holosmith? Are you implying it would have been better for Engi, Scrapper, and Holo to all be awful? What did you want out of Holosmith that you didn't get?

    You've said it yourself; More Build Diversity. The holosmith itself could've provided that if Mr. Rob would've been so kind but he himself replied indirectly to my complaints by saying something like "Yea, it's focused on one thing so, that's how I want it. That's what you get."

    You can be focused on damage as Robert Gee said, still having many diverse builds to achieve that. Build diversity =/= not being focused on one thing. Ok? Build diversity is having lots of choice between traits and such.

    With that being said, Holosmith already has really good build diversity no matter how you slice it, in PvP, or across all game modes. As I said before, this thread is a perfectionist's list to achieving build balance on EVERYTHING bad, even though it's not needed for literally EVERYTHING to be viable in one game mode. If ArenaNet is creating patch content and happens to think similarly as I did about any of these suggestions and implements similar results, that's awesome.

    Also, I hope that it's clear that Engineer and Scrapper need some ways to exist in each game mode as priority before Holosmith gets additional options..? Again, I made a thread on how to possibly make everything competitive in PvP, it doesn't show priority changes - which are balancing Engi and Scrapper mechanics.

    Just to provide evidence on my point:

    • Holosmith has good ways to play it in PvP. From a PvP perspective around half of the traits are currently represented. Using ECSU & tools vs. Vent Exhaust & explosives switches you from an in-out teamfighter to a highly aggressive, dodge rolling point blank nuke 1v1 role. All the GM's drastically change the playstyle, even PvP role, just like how I was originally saying months ago. Deja-Vu.
    • Out of the 9 Holosmith major traits they're all represented somewhere in the game except Crystal Configuration: Storm. WvW players are using traits including Light Density Amplifier, Prismatic Converter, Crystal Configuration: Zephyr for running Yaks. PvE players are using Solar Focusing Lens, Photonic Blasting Module.

    twitch.tv/chaithh
    Forum Lord Chaith

  • For turrets id recommend a major trait in the inventions line which allows you to wear a Turrent on your back like a kit but only one at a time.

    Summoning a 2nd turret detonates the one on your back and equips the new one.

    Equipping a kit while a turret is on your back grants you stability and detonates the turret on your back.

  • Chaith.8256Chaith.8256 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Haseno.6417 said:
    For turrets id recommend a major trait in the inventions line which allows you to wear a Turrent on your back like a kit but only one at a time.

    Summoning a 2nd turret detonates the one on your back and equips the new one.

    Equipping a kit while a turret is on your back grants you stability and detonates the turret on your back.

    Seems cool but kinda random! I dunno how much effort ArenaNet will put into balancing something like turrets.

    twitch.tv/chaithh
    Forum Lord Chaith

  • MrForz.1953MrForz.1953 Member ✭✭✭

    @Haseno.6417 said:
    For turrets id recommend a major trait in the inventions line which allows you to wear a Turrent on your back like a kit but only one at a time.

    Summoning a 2nd turret detonates the one on your back and equips the new one.

    Equipping a kit while a turret is on your back grants you stability and detonates the turret on your back.

    I swear I heard that somewhere. Maybe talking with one of my friends that plays Path of Exile. In any case it did make me wonder if such a thing could ever happen here too.

    Disgruntled Charr Engineer and Pirate - Jade Quarry

  • Chaith.8256Chaith.8256 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @MrForz.1953 said:

    @Haseno.6417 said:
    For turrets id recommend a major trait in the inventions line which allows you to wear a Turrent on your back like a kit but only one at a time.

    Summoning a 2nd turret detonates the one on your back and equips the new one.

    Equipping a kit while a turret is on your back grants you stability and detonates the turret on your back.

    I swear I heard that somewhere. Maybe talking with one of my friends that plays Path of Exile. In any case it did make me wonder if such a thing could ever happen here too.

    If something similar to that completely replaced "Experimental Turrets", the master tier trait that gives boons every 10s, I wouldn't complain, I find it pretty bland.

    twitch.tv/chaithh
    Forum Lord Chaith