How to balance every single thing that's bad on Engineer [PvP] - Page 8 — Guild Wars 2 Forums

How to balance every single thing that's bad on Engineer [PvP]

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  • EUmad.7645EUmad.7645 Member ✭✭

    @Chaith.8256 said:

    @PierPiero.9142 said:
    Putting incendiary powder back in explosive ?

    nah, why? I think Firearms was supposed to be the condition damage traitline and they've kind of achieved that. Yes it was everything with Cele stats for core Engi when in explosives but that era is gone anyway, it would do nothing to go back :(

    Problem is that now you have no good source of damage in condi engi with firearms alone . Nades and bombs not traited are not that great ....

  • Chaith.8256Chaith.8256 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @EUmad.7645 said:

    @Chaith.8256 said:

    @PierPiero.9142 said:
    Putting incendiary powder back in explosive ?

    nah, why? I think Firearms was supposed to be the condition damage traitline and they've kind of achieved that. Yes it was everything with Cele stats for core Engi when in explosives but that era is gone anyway, it would do nothing to go back :(

    Problem is that now you have no good source of damage in condi engi with firearms alone . Nades and bombs not traited are not that great ....

    Flamethrower is supposed to do that. Condi flamethrower requires no Explosives traits.
    My suggestions on condi Engi, executive summary,

    • Reduce CD of Incendiary Powder and Incendiary Ammunition by close to half, (possibly reduced duration of burns)
    • Buffs/Qol for Flamethrower
    • Buffs/Qol to bombs
    • Moving Short Fuse to Inventions so you can run Firearms, Inventions and maybe even another defensive traitline.

    So the problem you pose about there being no good condi damage with Firearms alone, I expect that to be fixed if enough of my suggestions were put in.

    twitch.tv/chaithh
    Forum Lord Chaith

  • Hoodie.1045Hoodie.1045 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited July 25, 2018

    @Chaith.8256 said:

    @EUmad.7645 said:

    @Chaith.8256 said:

    @PierPiero.9142 said:
    Putting incendiary powder back in explosive ?

    nah, why? I think Firearms was supposed to be the condition damage traitline and they've kind of achieved that. Yes it was everything with Cele stats for core Engi when in explosives but that era is gone anyway, it would do nothing to go back :(

    Problem is that now you have no good source of damage in condi engi with firearms alone . Nades and bombs not traited are not that great ....

    • Moving Short Fuse to Inventions so you can run Firearms, Inventions and maybe even another defensive traitline.

    So the problem you pose about there being no good condi damage with Firearms alone, I expect that to be fixed if enough of my suggestions were put in.

    It kind of seems odd to move an Explosives trait to Inventions. Maybe Chemical Rounds in Firearms could be buffed to increase condition duration on all skills instead of only the pistols?

    Karras

  • Chaith.8256Chaith.8256 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Hoodie.1045 said:

    @Chaith.8256 said:

    @EUmad.7645 said:

    @Chaith.8256 said:

    @PierPiero.9142 said:
    Putting incendiary powder back in explosive ?

    nah, why? I think Firearms was supposed to be the condition damage traitline and they've kind of achieved that. Yes it was everything with Cele stats for core Engi when in explosives but that era is gone anyway, it would do nothing to go back :(

    Problem is that now you have no good source of damage in condi engi with firearms alone . Nades and bombs not traited are not that great ....

    • Moving Short Fuse to Inventions so you can run Firearms, Inventions and maybe even another defensive traitline.

    So the problem you pose about there being no good condi damage with Firearms alone, I expect that to be fixed if enough of my suggestions were put in.

    It kind of seems odd to move an Explosives trait to Inventions. Maybe Chemical Rounds in Firearms could be buffed to increase condition duration on all skills instead of only the pistols?

    Inventions has (had more) bomb traits.... AutoBomb dispenser, elixir infused bombs...

    What kit would you say corresponds with Inventions? There's only one, bomb kit.

    Explosives- Nade/Mortar
    Firearms- Flamethrower
    Alchemy- Med Kit/Elixir Gun
    Tools- Tool Kit
    Inventions- ???

    twitch.tv/chaithh
    Forum Lord Chaith

  • Hoodie.1045Hoodie.1045 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Chaith.8256 said:

    @Hoodie.1045 said:

    @Chaith.8256 said:

    @EUmad.7645 said:

    @Chaith.8256 said:

    @PierPiero.9142 said:
    Putting incendiary powder back in explosive ?

    nah, why? I think Firearms was supposed to be the condition damage traitline and they've kind of achieved that. Yes it was everything with Cele stats for core Engi when in explosives but that era is gone anyway, it would do nothing to go back :(

    Problem is that now you have no good source of damage in condi engi with firearms alone . Nades and bombs not traited are not that great ....

    • Moving Short Fuse to Inventions so you can run Firearms, Inventions and maybe even another defensive traitline.

    So the problem you pose about there being no good condi damage with Firearms alone, I expect that to be fixed if enough of my suggestions were put in.

    It kind of seems odd to move an Explosives trait to Inventions. Maybe Chemical Rounds in Firearms could be buffed to increase condition duration on all skills instead of only the pistols?

    Inventions has (had more) bomb traits.... AutoBomb dispenser, elixir infused bombs...

    What kit would you say corresponds with Inventions? There's only one, bomb kit.

    Explosives- Nade/Mortar
    Firearms- Flamethrower
    Alchemy- Med Kit/Elixir Gun
    Tools- Tool Kit
    Inventions- ???

    I remember Elixir-Infused Bombs and yes I do agree that the bomb kit corresponds with Inventions, at least only with Autodefense Bomb Dispenser. I think it would be a good idea if Bunker Down was replaced with Short Fuse and in Explosives they could replace the current Short Fuse with the old Short Fuse which reduced cooldown on grenade and bomb skills, but I guess in this case it would only benefit the grenades, so maybe a 10% increase on grenade skills and reduced cooldown?

    Karras

  • Chaith.8256Chaith.8256 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Hoodie.1045 said:

    @Chaith.8256 said:

    @Hoodie.1045 said:

    @Chaith.8256 said:

    @EUmad.7645 said:

    @Chaith.8256 said:

    @PierPiero.9142 said:
    Putting incendiary powder back in explosive ?

    nah, why? I think Firearms was supposed to be the condition damage traitline and they've kind of achieved that. Yes it was everything with Cele stats for core Engi when in explosives but that era is gone anyway, it would do nothing to go back :(

    Problem is that now you have no good source of damage in condi engi with firearms alone . Nades and bombs not traited are not that great ....

    • Moving Short Fuse to Inventions so you can run Firearms, Inventions and maybe even another defensive traitline.

    So the problem you pose about there being no good condi damage with Firearms alone, I expect that to be fixed if enough of my suggestions were put in.

    It kind of seems odd to move an Explosives trait to Inventions. Maybe Chemical Rounds in Firearms could be buffed to increase condition duration on all skills instead of only the pistols?

    Inventions has (had more) bomb traits.... AutoBomb dispenser, elixir infused bombs...

    What kit would you say corresponds with Inventions? There's only one, bomb kit.

    Explosives- Nade/Mortar
    Firearms- Flamethrower
    Alchemy- Med Kit/Elixir Gun
    Tools- Tool Kit
    Inventions- ???

    I remember Elixir-Infused Bombs and yes I do agree that the bomb kit corresponds with Inventions, at least only with Autodefense Bomb Dispenser. I think it would be a good idea if Bunker Down was replaced with Short Fuse and in Explosives they could replace the current Short Fuse with the old Short Fuse which reduced cooldown on grenade and bomb skills, but I guess in this case it would only benefit the grenades, so maybe a 10% increase on grenade skills and reduced cooldown?

    Interesting,

    That leaves two Grenade kit traits, as others pointed out about having two hammer traits, it's just not that smooth.

    twitch.tv/chaithh
    Forum Lord Chaith

  • Ghos.1326Ghos.1326 Member ✭✭✭

    @Chaith.8256 said:

    @PierPiero.9142 said:
    Putting incendiary powder back in explosive ?

    nah, why? I think Firearms was supposed to be the condition damage traitline and they've kind of achieved that. Yes it was everything with Cele stats for core Engi when in explosives but that era is gone anyway, it would do nothing to go back :(

    I think incendiary powder needs to stay in firearms as well. A decrease in cooldown would bring it back to a really good option, and would really keep opponents pressured with the imminent threat of burning on a critical. And yes, firearms is made to focus on critical hits (mainly chance) and condition damage.

    The greatest enemy to improvement, is ignorance. But the desire to learn will cast ignorance into the fire.

  • Peutrifectus.4830Peutrifectus.4830 Member ✭✭✭

    Bit of a tangent.. Whatever happened to piercing round on pistol? It only ever effected the #1 & #2 skill but it was gravy

    Sparkr's Wonderful World of Engineering - https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCEONFRaJV2u2f12ytXEir9A

  • Chaith.8256Chaith.8256 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Peutrifectus.4830 said:
    Bit of a tangent.. Whatever happened to piercing round on pistol? It only ever effected the #1 & #2 skill but it was gravy

    Idk but I suggested those two skills pierce baseline

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    Forum Lord Chaith

  • MrForz.1953MrForz.1953 Member ✭✭✭

    I recall... It was during the transition from the old traits design to actual specializations. Coated Bullets was removed from the game at the same time grenades range got destroyed and the mortar became a kit.

    Disgruntled Charr Engineer and Pirate - Jade Quarry

  • The V.8759The V.8759 Member ✭✭

    Another thing I'dd add to the list is impact savant. It should be 20 or 25%, and be optional in the traitline somewhere.

    As a minor trait, all scrappers have it automaticly. 90% of engineer barrier access is on engineer. Therefore, its barriers are balanced already to incorporate 15% extra. Besides, scrappers can be built without barriers aswell.

  • Chaith.8256Chaith.8256 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @The V.8759 said:
    Another thing I'dd add to the list is impact savant. It should be 20 or 25%, and be optional in the traitline somewhere.

    As a minor trait, all scrappers have it automaticly. 90% of engineer barrier access is on engineer. Therefore, its barriers are balanced already to incorporate 15% extra. Besides, scrappers can be built without barriers aswell.

    It's not the kind of trait that can be a major trait. It's a new trait, and one that also works on incoming scourge barriers. I agree that not building for barriers makes this trait a bit dumb to be mandatory... I'd be in favor of replacing it completely so you won't feel forced into building for barriers. But it's low priority

    twitch.tv/chaithh
    Forum Lord Chaith

  • coro.3176coro.3176 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @The V.8759 said:
    Another thing I'dd add to the list is impact savant. It should be 20 or 25%, and be optional in the traitline somewhere.

    As a minor trait, all scrappers have it automaticly. 90% of engineer barrier access is on engineer. Therefore, its barriers are balanced already to incorporate 15% extra. Besides, scrappers can be built without barriers aswell.

    Yeah. I find that kind of minor trait to be a really weak cop-out.

    As you say, literally ALL the barrier (except a bit in Holo, which is incompatible with Scrapper anyway) Engi can do requires Scrapper. That means that trait may as well not exist and the barriers should be 15% stronger by default. There's no way to select a different minor trait, so the 15% bonus effictively IS base and the trait is pointless.

  • Chaith.8256Chaith.8256 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited July 26, 2018

    @coro.3176 said:

    @The V.8759 said:
    Another thing I'dd add to the list is impact savant. It should be 20 or 25%, and be optional in the traitline somewhere.

    As a minor trait, all scrappers have it automaticly. 90% of engineer barrier access is on engineer. Therefore, its barriers are balanced already to incorporate 15% extra. Besides, scrappers can be built without barriers aswell.

    Yeah. I find that kind of minor trait to be a really weak cop-out.

    As you say, literally ALL the barrier (except a bit in Holo, which is incompatible with Scrapper anyway) Engi can do requires Scrapper. That means that trait may as well not exist and the barriers should be 15% stronger by default. There's no way to select a different minor trait, so the 15% bonus effictively IS base and the trait is pointless.

    Again, it's not a complete cop out because it has synergy with any barriers from other player sources. 90% cop out

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    Forum Lord Chaith

  • Ghos.1326Ghos.1326 Member ✭✭✭
    edited July 26, 2018

    @The V.8759 said:
    Another thing I'dd add to the list is impact savant. It should be 20 or 25%, and be optional in the traitline somewhere.

    As a minor trait, all scrappers have it automaticly. 90% of engineer barrier access is on engineer. Therefore, its barriers are balanced already to incorporate 15% extra. Besides, scrappers can be built without barriers aswell.

    One of my suggestions, was to merge Impact Savant and Adaptive Armor all into Adaptive armor, and make Adaptive Armor the minor trait. This, along with making Rapid Regeneration a minor trait, would open up a lot of build opportunities, and really put the scrapper in the place of a tank. With this, the Scrapper can then opt for more damage mitigation with a new grandmaster major trait (also in my suggestions), more support-based healing for self and others using superspeed with Final Salvo, or more Damage/Duelist oriented with Applied Force.

    As well, if Chaith's idea for replacing Expert Examination is not considered, Expert examination could be a proc on hit/crit to enemies to apply weakness and vuln, and maybe be renamed to Hindering Blows, and maybe with an ICD of around 10 seconds or less.

    The greatest enemy to improvement, is ignorance. But the desire to learn will cast ignorance into the fire.

  • Chaith.8256Chaith.8256 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Ghos.1326 said:

    @The V.8759 said:
    Another thing I'dd add to the list is impact savant. It should be 20 or 25%, and be optional in the traitline somewhere.

    As a minor trait, all scrappers have it automaticly. 90% of engineer barrier access is on engineer. Therefore, its barriers are balanced already to incorporate 15% extra. Besides, scrappers can be built without barriers aswell.

    One of my suggestions, was to merge Impact Savant and Adaptive Armor all into Adaptive armor, and make Adaptive Armor the minor trait. This, along with making Rapid Regeneration a minor trait, would open up a lot of build opportunities, and really put the scrapper in the place of a tank. With this, the Scrapper can then opt for more damage mitigation with a new grandmaster major trait (also in my suggestions), more support-based healing for self and others using superspeed with Final Salvo, or more Damage/Duelist oriented with Applied Force.

    I agree from a design perspective, Rapid Regen and Adaptive Armor make total sense as minor traits in a tank line.

    However, that change would make Scrapper completely OP. Having Rapid Regeneration, Mass Momentum, Adaptive Armor and Final Salvo all in the same build... when all you'd give up would be the useless Decisive Renown, as you've already merged Impact Savant into Adaptive Armor. OP AF

    If they made Rapid Regeneration and Adaptive armor into 'lesser' versions I could see them going into minor slots. Impact Savant would definitely NOT be getting merged, you'd have to lose that.

    twitch.tv/chaithh
    Forum Lord Chaith

  • Chaith.8256Chaith.8256 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 22, 2018

    Updated my Scrapper hammer suggestions to include a few more:

    1.) Increased the range of the Hammer Auto-Attack from 130 to170

    2.) Electro Whirl's reflecting effect activates immediately.

    3.) Rocket Charge now evades for the entire animation instead of 3 miniature evades, damage reduced by 20% to compensate.

    4.) Shock shield now provides a barrier to allies as well as the Scrapper, the barrier for other allies would be stronger: appr. 400/pulse.

    5.) Thunderclap now inflicts 3 vulnerability per pulse, up from 1.

    twitch.tv/chaithh
    Forum Lord Chaith

  • Chaith.8256Chaith.8256 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited July 30, 2018

    Made an update to Short Fuse. (I already suggested Explosives Short Fuse and Inventions Bunker Down switch places)

    Bunker down, now 'Short Fuse'. Currently: Bombs have shorter fuse time and 20% reduced recharge. New: In addition to its current effects, bomb explosions heal allies 145 (.15). Re-name to Elixir Infused Bombs!

    Tack back on Elixir Infused Bombs feature to Short Fuse and make it a rightful Inventions GM, and add a little sustain to the currently suicidal bomb builds that old players will recognize.

    twitch.tv/chaithh
    Forum Lord Chaith

  • Chaith.8256Chaith.8256 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Another change added to Scrapper:

    Function Gyro as a class mechanic needs to be good for solo Scrappers and better for Scrappers of all builds.

    • Function Gyro while at your side, off-cooldown, will crackle with energy and grant 10% reduced damage taken from power and condition sources.
    • Function Gyro itself when spawned will have one stability stack for 4s, baseline. (With Final Salvo it would be two stacks.)

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    Forum Lord Chaith

  • Chaith.8256Chaith.8256 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Added a couple suggestion tweaks to work in more cripple to kits that really need it.

    Rocket Charge now evades for the entire animation instead of 3 miniature evades, added 3s of cripple per hit. Damage reduced by 20% to compensate.

    Box of nails: Increased radius from 240 to 300 and cripple from 2s to 3s

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    Forum Lord Chaith

  • Ghos.1326Ghos.1326 Member ✭✭✭

    @Chaith.8256 said:
    Added a couple suggestion tweaks to work in more cripple to kits that really need it.

    Rocket Charge now evades for the entire animation instead of 3 miniature evades, added 3s of cripple per hit. Damage reduced by 20% to compensate.

    Box of nails: Increased radius from 240 to 300 and cripple from 2s to 3s

    This would be so lovely. It could solve the mobility issue of a scrapper with a hammer equipped, by using cripple to keep opponents in range of attacks. Def thumbs up'd this post.

    The greatest enemy to improvement, is ignorance. But the desire to learn will cast ignorance into the fire.

  • DeceiverX.8361DeceiverX.8361 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Can you add normalization of sPvP holo to WvW to the list?

    Holo is SUPER broken in WvW because it never took any of the sPvP nerfs and is still dealing 25-75% more damage per skill there. OP is maintaining a level head with the discussion and suggestions as a whole here, but Holo is even beginning to eclipse mirage as the premier roaming spec thanks to HF still being way overtuned + Endurance food (which is a separate issue breaking Holo/Mirage thanks to on-dodge effects).

    You sure that Sniper idea is as good as you thought it was gonna be?
    Because I think my original idea is better.
    Quit/Inactive. No, you can't have my stuff.

  • coro.3176coro.3176 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited August 20, 2018

    @Chaith.8256 said:
    Added a couple suggestion tweaks to work in more cripple to kits that really need it.

    Rocket Charge now evades for the entire animation instead of 3 miniature evades, added 3s of cripple per hit. Damage reduced by 20% to compensate.

    Box of nails: Increased radius from 240 to 300 and cripple from 2s to 3s

    The attention to Box of nails would be appreciated, but I don't think that's enough to make it worth its 3/4s cast time. If it were instant or 1/4s, I might consider using it with those numbers. IMO, if it's going to be a 3/4s cast, it really ought to do 5x (or more) its current bleed damage. (keeping in mind, it's less than 2k total currently, assuming the opponent stands in it for 5 seconds and does not cleanse - a more realistic scenario is the opponent stands in it for 1-2s and cleanses almost immediately.)

  • Chaith.8256Chaith.8256 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @DeceiverX.8361 said:
    Can you add normalization of sPvP holo to WvW to the list?

    Holo is SUPER broken in WvW because it never took any of the sPvP nerfs and is still dealing 25-75% more damage per skill there. OP is maintaining a level head with the discussion and suggestions as a whole here, but Holo is even beginning to eclipse mirage as the premier roaming spec thanks to HF still being way overtuned + Endurance food (which is a separate issue breaking Holo/Mirage thanks to on-dodge effects).

    That's a discussion for another thread, I really can't comment on those issues

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    Forum Lord Chaith

  • Chaith.8256Chaith.8256 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @coro.3176 said:

    @Chaith.8256 said:
    Added a couple suggestion tweaks to work in more cripple to kits that really need it.

    Rocket Charge now evades for the entire animation instead of 3 miniature evades, added 3s of cripple per hit. Damage reduced by 20% to compensate.

    Box of nails: Increased radius from 240 to 300 and cripple from 2s to 3s

    The attention to Box of nails would be appreciated, but I don't think that's enough to make it worth its 3/4s cast time. If it were instant or 1/4s, I might consider using it with those numbers. IMO, if it's going to be a 3/4s cast, it really ought to do 5x (or more) its current bleed damage. (keeping in mind, it's less than 2k total currently, assuming the opponent stands in it for 5 seconds and does not cleanse - a more realistic scenario is the opponent stands in it for 1-2s and cleanses almost immediately.)

    Yeah a cast time reduction would be reasonable!

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    Forum Lord Chaith

  • coro.3176coro.3176 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @DeceiverX.8361 said:
    Can you add normalization of sPvP holo to WvW to the list?

    Holo is SUPER broken in WvW because it never took any of the sPvP nerfs and is still dealing 25-75% more damage per skill there. OP is maintaining a level head with the discussion and suggestions as a whole here, but Holo is even beginning to eclipse mirage as the premier roaming spec thanks to HF still being way overtuned + Endurance food (which is a separate issue breaking Holo/Mirage thanks to on-dodge effects).

    The problem with PF is that it's a full set of ridiculously good abilities for basically no cost. Holo gives up a single toolbelt skill to get what is effectively the best damage kit in the game. The heat mechanic is no drawback, and even functions as an extra heal over time every time it's used. An opponent needs to use most or all of their defense just to survive the PF rotation, but after that's finished, the Holo still has all the regular engi skills and all the regular utility skills.

    That is near-impossible to balance IMO, because PF is just pure powercreep compared to the base class.

  • Tehologist.5841Tehologist.5841 Member ✭✭✭
    edited August 20, 2018

    I play on wvw daily, everyone is way over tuned. If your not running heavy toughness your going to die very fast in wvw. I don’t feel holosmith is much of an issue there.

  • DeceiverX.8361DeceiverX.8361 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Chaith.8256 said:

    @DeceiverX.8361 said:
    Can you add normalization of sPvP holo to WvW to the list?

    Holo is SUPER broken in WvW because it never took any of the sPvP nerfs and is still dealing 25-75% more damage per skill there. OP is maintaining a level head with the discussion and suggestions as a whole here, but Holo is even beginning to eclipse mirage as the premier roaming spec thanks to HF still being way overtuned + Endurance food (which is a separate issue breaking Holo/Mirage thanks to on-dodge effects).

    That's a discussion for another thread, I really can't comment on those issues

    I get that, but this is a pretty big set of reworks and improvements which core engineer and to some extent scrapper could really also benefit from in WvW. It's just that Holo is so overloaded right now due to the lack of normalizing that any improvements made would legit break the class beyond what's already a pretty broken dynamic. I'm not disputing these changes for sPvP but more or less stating they're unreasonable to suggest to make exclusively for sPvP when a lot of what's been posted is pretty valid for WvW, but simply that the engineer can't benefit from these changes game-wide thanks to Holo. If the intent is to gain visibility and make suggestions for ANet to see, you should probably nod towards this to better-unify the profession across the modes which makes the class easier to balance as a whole.

    You sure that Sniper idea is as good as you thought it was gonna be?
    Because I think my original idea is better.
    Quit/Inactive. No, you can't have my stuff.

  • Chaith.8256Chaith.8256 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited August 20, 2018

    @DeceiverX.8361 said:

    @Chaith.8256 said:

    @DeceiverX.8361 said:
    Can you add normalization of sPvP holo to WvW to the list?

    Holo is SUPER broken in WvW because it never took any of the sPvP nerfs and is still dealing 25-75% more damage per skill there. OP is maintaining a level head with the discussion and suggestions as a whole here, but Holo is even beginning to eclipse mirage as the premier roaming spec thanks to HF still being way overtuned + Endurance food (which is a separate issue breaking Holo/Mirage thanks to on-dodge effects).

    That's a discussion for another thread, I really can't comment on those issues

    I get that, but this is a pretty big set of reworks and improvements which core engineer and to some extent scrapper could really also benefit from in WvW. It's just that Holo is so overloaded right now due to the lack of normalizing that any improvements made would legit break the class beyond what's already a pretty broken dynamic. I'm not disputing these changes for sPvP but more or less stating they're unreasonable to suggest to make exclusively for sPvP when a lot of what's been posted is pretty valid for WvW, but simply that the engineer can't benefit from these changes game-wide thanks to Holo. If the intent is to gain visibility and make suggestions for ANet to see, you should probably nod towards this to better-unify the profession across the modes which makes the class easier to balance as a whole.

    Extend my suggestions to WvW where applicable but putting in WvW only suggestions I'm not gonna discuss, that's all. Also, as far as I can tell, no net-increase improvements to Holo have been suggested, maybe you don't agree, possibly point out which suggestion is an overall buff to Holosmith's power level?

    twitch.tv/chaithh
    Forum Lord Chaith

  • coro.3176coro.3176 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited August 20, 2018

    @Chaith.8256 said:

    @DeceiverX.8361 said:

    @Chaith.8256 said:

    @DeceiverX.8361 said:
    Can you add normalization of sPvP holo to WvW to the list?

    Holo is SUPER broken in WvW because it never took any of the sPvP nerfs and is still dealing 25-75% more damage per skill there. OP is maintaining a level head with the discussion and suggestions as a whole here, but Holo is even beginning to eclipse mirage as the premier roaming spec thanks to HF still being way overtuned + Endurance food (which is a separate issue breaking Holo/Mirage thanks to on-dodge effects).

    That's a discussion for another thread, I really can't comment on those issues

    I get that, but this is a pretty big set of reworks and improvements which core engineer and to some extent scrapper could really also benefit from in WvW. It's just that Holo is so overloaded right now due to the lack of normalizing that any improvements made would legit break the class beyond what's already a pretty broken dynamic. I'm not disputing these changes for sPvP but more or less stating they're unreasonable to suggest to make exclusively for sPvP when a lot of what's been posted is pretty valid for WvW, but simply that the engineer can't benefit from these changes game-wide thanks to Holo. If the intent is to gain visibility and make suggestions for ANet to see, you should probably nod towards this to better-unify the profession across the modes which makes the class easier to balance as a whole.

    Extend my suggestions to WvW where applicable but putting in WvW only suggestions I'm not gonna discuss, that's all. Also, as far as I can tell, no net-increase improvements to Holo have been suggested, maybe you don't agree, possibly point out which suggestion is an overall buff to Holosmith's power level?

    It's tough because Holo, revolving around its "free" Photon Forge damage + CC, just picks up whatever it can use from whatever else happens to be good on Engineer. Just skimming the list, Holo would definitely benefit from turret changes like knockback on detonation, reduced cooldowns (oh jeez, can you imagine full turret holo with knockbacks from every turret ..ugh), reduced toolbelt skill cooldowns, and other buffs. All of those would be fine on core engi, because they're giving up skill slots that they desperately need for damage and utility. .. Holo doesn't need to worry about giving up those slots because it gets all the damage, cc, gap closing, stability, barrier, etc it needs from PF.

    Same goes for elixir skill buffs. Same goes for traitline buffs (eg. Inventions sustain).

    Same even goes for kit buffs. The 6s kit lockout from PF is a minor annoyance to a Holo, as they will usually want to go through their full PF rotation before swapping to kits anyway. I find when I'm playing Holo that I am only ever bothered by not being able to swap to a kit maybe once every few games, and even then it's only ever ~1-2s on lockout.

    The task of buffing core engi while holo exists seems impossible because Holo gets it all too .. plus all the PF damage/utility, minus the elite toolbelt skill. I mean, I guess you could maybe double the kit lockout to 12s, or put ridiculous buffs (like, 1hko) on all the elite toolbelt skills to even it up.

  • Silinsar.6298Silinsar.6298 Member ✭✭✭
    edited August 20, 2018

    @coro.3176 said:

    Same even goes for kit buffs. The 6s kit lockout from PF is a minor annoyance to a Holo, as they will usually want to go through their full PF rotation before swapping to kits anyway. I find when I'm playing Holo that I am only ever bothered by not being able to swap to a kit maybe once every few games, and even then it's only ever ~1-2s on lockout.

    The task of buffing core engi while holo exists seems impossible because Holo gets it all too .. plus all the PF damage/utility, minus the elite toolbelt skill. I mean, I guess you could maybe double the kit lockout to 12s, or put ridiculous buffs (like, 1hko) on all the elite toolbelt skills to even it up.

    Traits similar to Juggernaut and the current BPR are the best way to buff up core without overtuning Holo, imo. Both require and boost performance when camping kits for a longer time. Holo picks kits for utility, if FT or TK auto become worthy of a good weapon, core engi will benefit but for holo they will overlap with its in built kit. Egun could have it's Acid bomb damage nerfed and the AA effects / damage increased. Though there's a risk of making it a decent range swap so holos could use Sw/Sh more easily.

    Also, buff the hell out of Elite TB skills which holo can't use. No way for holo to benefit there. And don't make them 60-120sec hit or misses but frequently usable skills that noticeable improve the capabilities of a build in certain areas.

    SD Engi / Holo roaming videos: https://www.youtube.com/user/algeyr

  • coro.3176coro.3176 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Silinsar.6298 said:

    @coro.3176 said:

    Same even goes for kit buffs. The 6s kit lockout from PF is a minor annoyance to a Holo, as they will usually want to go through their full PF rotation before swapping to kits anyway. I find when I'm playing Holo that I am only ever bothered by not being able to swap to a kit maybe once every few games, and even then it's only ever ~1-2s on lockout.

    The task of buffing core engi while holo exists seems impossible because Holo gets it all too .. plus all the PF damage/utility, minus the elite toolbelt skill. I mean, I guess you could maybe double the kit lockout to 12s, or put ridiculous buffs (like, 1hko) on all the elite toolbelt skills to even it up.

    Traits similar to Juggernaut and the current BPR are the best way to buff up core without overtuning Holo, imo. Both require and boost performance when camping kits for a longer time.

    If it's good enough, Holo will still use it. Holo already gets huge buffs for being in PF from its traits (-15% incoming damage, +15% outgoing, heat therapy heals for a ton). Holo would definitely take advantage of a kit-camping buff while out of PF. It'd need to be way better than all that to compete with PF so that you'd want to camp kits all the time.

    .. but more importantly, kit "camping" is kind of a betrayal of what engi always used to be about: switching to the right tool for the job on the fly quickly - weapon skill, swap, kit skill, swap, toolbelt skill, weapon skill, different kit swap, etc.

    Also, buff the hell out of Elite TB skills which holo can't use. No way for holo to benefit there. And don't make them 60-120sec hit or misses but frequently usable skills that noticeable improve the capabilities of a build in certain areas.

    I was kind of joking with this one. I feel like buffing elite tb skills would be a tacit admission of Photon Forge being power creeped to all hell.

  • Chaith.8256Chaith.8256 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited August 21, 2018

    @coro.3176 said:
    If it's good enough, Holo will still use it. Holo already gets huge buffs for being in PF from its traits (-15% incoming damage, +15% outgoing, heat therapy heals for a ton). Holo would definitely take advantage of a kit-camping buff while out of PF. It'd need to be way better than all that to compete with PF so that you'd want to camp kits all the time.

    I do not think this to be true. You can't use Photon Forge and your mainhand weapon AND camp a kit. You'd have to completely forego using your mainhand weapon..

    Edit, of course, from a PvP perspective with Vent Exhaust increasing your PF uptime significantly

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    Forum Lord Chaith

  • coro.3176coro.3176 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Chaith.8256 said:

    @coro.3176 said:
    If it's good enough, Holo will still use it. Holo already gets huge buffs for being in PF from its traits (-15% incoming damage, +15% outgoing, heat therapy heals for a ton). Holo would definitely take advantage of a kit-camping buff while out of PF. It'd need to be way better than all that to compete with PF so that you'd want to camp kits all the time.

    I do not think this to be true. You can't use Photon Forge and your mainhand weapon AND camp a kit. You'd have to completely forego using your mainhand weapon..

    Edit, of course, from a PvP perspective with Vent Exhaust increasing your PF uptime significantly

    https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/17656/zan-reached-rank-1-with-no-weapon :)

    I think holo would be just fine with kit camping + forge. I'd guess egun for sustain + stunbreak, maybe toolkit for block/stall. It'd depend on how good that trait is, of course.

  • Chaith.8256Chaith.8256 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited August 21, 2018

    @coro.3176 said:
    https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/17656/zan-reached-rank-1-with-no-weapon :)

    I think holo would be just fine with kit camping + forge. I'd guess egun for sustain + stunbreak, maybe toolkit for block/stall. It'd depend on how good that trait is, of course.

    That was for a build that had near 100% PF uptime... so you'd have even less time for kit camping, are you agreeing with me or something? Holo with Vent Exhaust in PvP doesn't have the time to interact with kits, it's not worth it. Your damage rotation flows perfectly well with just maximizing PF and your mainhand. Trying to kit camp over your mainhand weapon just results in your mainhand being dead weight and equipping that kit a very much lower net gain to slot.

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    Forum Lord Chaith

  • Chaith.8256Chaith.8256 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited August 26, 2018

    With a few threads talking about Function Gyro reworks, I decided to formulate my own.

    Function Gyro: You gain access to the Function Gyro which can be used to finish a foe, bolster or revive an ally at range.

    • "Function Gyro Charged" buff now reduces damage taken by all sources by 10% (When the Gyro is hovering on your shoulder.)
    • A key word added, the ability to bolster allies added to the Function Gyro.
    • Using Function Gyro on a targeted ally will order your gyro to their position (shoulder) instead, and apply "Overdrive"
    • Overdrive, periodically gain quickness, superspeed, and barrier. Duration: 2s per pulse, 3 pulses, 2000 barrier per pulse.

    So there, another task that you can use your Function Gyros cooldown on which is not downed state management.

    twitch.tv/chaithh
    Forum Lord Chaith

  • Chaith.8256Chaith.8256 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 3, 2018

    After late August balance patch, this is where things are:

    • Elixir H reduced from 1s cast to .75s cast! Just as suggested, this makes Elixir H a much more relevant replacement to Healing Turret. Still not where it needs to be, but closer.
    • Glob Shot velocity increase! Just as suggested, this makes Glob Shot actually worth using because you have a reasonable expectation that it won't be obstructed unless they dodge! Still not where it needs to be, as the damage and cripple are still not great, but it's worth using for Bruiser Scrapper.
    • Blast Gyro and Shredder Gyro now scale with stats. This is a low impact change, their functionalities are not amazing compared to other options, and the damage is relatively the same when you're wearing Demolisher/Marauder stats. Not impactful as I anticipated. Filling your bar up with DPS Gyros hurts your damage/utility too much.
    • Orbital Command trait damage increased by 44! Just as suggested, this makes Orbital Command not a joke, but still not where it needs to be, which is to have a second functionality such as a velocity increase for Mortar, for example.

    Recent changes I've added to the list:

    • Automated Medical Response: Currently: Heal skills recharged when you're struck below 25% health. **New: Trait re-worked. Increased revive speed by 10%. When you begin to revive an ally, unleash a large wave of healing vapours, healing & reviving allies. Healing: 2500 (.5 healing coeff), Radius: 360, Revive downed state health: 10%

    Added because Automated Medical Response was just getting janky after the Scrapper nerfs from HoT. The new AMR will help get Scrapper from 4th best reviver to where it should be with Function Gyro revive combos.

    • Serrated Steel: Currently: Bleeding duration increased by 33%. New: In addition to its previous effects, inflicting Bleeding on a Target will also inflict vulnerability (5s) (1s ICD)

    Added so condi Engi can have a little more condition variety with the removal of the vuln on hit sigil in PvP.

    • Comeback Cure: Currently: Removing conditions grants regeneration. New: Removing conditions grants barrier. 750 barrier.

    I think its important to have barrier on core Engi, and what better place to have that than instead of the current Comeback Cure which just spams way overkill, redundant Regeneration.

    • Chemical Field: In addition to its current effects, first pulse will also apply resistance to allies for 3 seconds.

    Added a buff to Chemical Field because Purge Gyro is being left in the dust.

    Lots more changes I've added over the months so if you haven't read the original post lately, skim it again..

    Positive last patch, but babysteps

    twitch.tv/chaithh
    Forum Lord Chaith

  • Tehologist.5841Tehologist.5841 Member ✭✭✭
    edited September 3, 2018

    We already have explosions cause vulnerability and a lot of other sources of vulnerability. I like the new additions. I really wish we had a single traitline for all the kits, they are so spread out.

  • Hoodie.1045Hoodie.1045 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Chaith.8256 said:
    Positive last patch, but babysteps

    They nerfed core engineer with Thermal Vision. It was an unnecessary nerf and it has made core engineer even more difficult to play in fractals in raids. It's bad enough that you must memorize 30+ step rotations in order to be on par with other professions, but now it's a case of you are either a god as core engineer, knowing the skill rotations and swapping from one kit to another .

    But I agree with this last statement, ArenaNet is playing very safe with these balance patches. They never take any risks with how they change professions and instead they only do minimal changes to professions or sometimes none at all. Herald was the main focus in this balance patch, but that doesn't mean you get to not give other professions the same treatment.

    Karras

  • Chaith.8256Chaith.8256 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Hoodie.1045 said:

    @Chaith.8256 said:
    Positive last patch, but babysteps

    They nerfed core engineer with Thermal Vision. It was an unnecessary nerf and it has made core engineer even more difficult to play in fractals in raids. It's bad enough that you must memorize 30+ step rotations in order to be on par with other professions, but now it's a case of you are either a god as core engineer, knowing the skill rotations and swapping from one kit to another .

    But I agree with this last statement, ArenaNet is playing very safe with these balance patches. They never take any risks with how they change professions and instead they only do minimal changes to professions or sometimes none at all. Herald was the main focus in this balance patch, but that doesn't mean you get to not give other professions the same treatment.

    5% raw number nerf to thermal vision, yes, unexpected but it's a pure PvE nerf as in PvP, condi Engi already needs an overhaul and is unusable so... It's not really felt by anyone.

    twitch.tv/chaithh
    Forum Lord Chaith

  • regarding wvw. Count the numbers of engis you see in wvw. do it.

    You will find more guardians, more necros, more eles, more spellbreakers etc in squads. And outside of squads you will be dived by evasion spamming burst classes like the disaster that is condi mirrage or even thieves or similar. You might see some holos but they are rare. So why isn't the holo as used and as op in wvw as in pvp? Same reason the engineer has always been op in spvp. Cos melee cleave and circles of pain hurts when your success depends on a point one swordslash across. And team support matters less the less expected allies there are in a fight.

    Im a scrapper and i do not like what holo has become but they are among my least worries when roaming OR playing in squads.

    If i see or hear another spoopy scary skeleton im going to throw up. And another firebrand oneliner and im going to cry.

  • Chaith.8256Chaith.8256 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @miriforst.1290 said:
    regarding wvw. Count the numbers of engis you see in wvw. do it.

    You will find more guardians, more necros, more eles, more spellbreakers etc in squads. And outside of squads you will be dived by evasion spamming burst classes like the disaster that is condi mirrage or even thieves or similar. You might see some holos but they are rare. So why isn't the holo as used and as op in wvw as in pvp? Same reason the engineer has always been op in spvp. Cos melee cleave and circles of pain hurts when your success depends on a point one swordslash across. And team support matters less the less expected allies there are in a fight.

    Im a scrapper and i do not like what holo has become but they are among my least worries when roaming OR playing in squads.

    If i see or hear another spoopy scary skeleton im going to throw up. And another firebrand oneliner and im going to cry.

    Well.. WvW isn't a focus in this thread but certainly gets addressed. I really want Scrapper to be a thing in WvW even more strongly. Check out some of my suggestions and maybe add any additional needs Engi has in large scale combat

    twitch.tv/chaithh
    Forum Lord Chaith

  • Peutrifectus.4830Peutrifectus.4830 Member ✭✭✭
    edited September 4, 2018

    there's been a fair bit of discussion on core and scrapper recently around the bizzares and I use them alot (for all their faults) and I have a wide build diversity (even in each specialisation). Out of all the core utilities, turrets are at the bottom of the pile and I like what you are proposing with them in terms of cooldowns and overcharge abilities. Gadgets though... always been the coolest ideas but always slightly behind the curve in terms of strength. The newer ammo updates have done wonders for RB and PBR and I think that the same treatment on SS would be welcome too...

    what got me thinking about slickshoes though was that Slicks are suposed to get you out of a sticky situation and the CC and SB did a great job of it back in the day but in todays heavy aoe CC crowd, it's lack luster in that role. I would propose when traited with gadgeteer, to add either 1 stack for 2 secs or 2 stacks for 1 sec of stability on the f# stunbreak aswell as superspeed or give it the ammo mechanic with 1 stack stab for 1 sec (in adition to current effect) to partially counter heavy cc spam. This would also indirectly buff scrappers who make use of rapid regen or mass momentum. I feel that holo build would still benefit from kinetic battery mich more.... thoughts?

    Sparkr's Wonderful World of Engineering - https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCEONFRaJV2u2f12ytXEir9A

  • Chaith.8256Chaith.8256 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Peutrifectus.4830 said:
    there's been a fair bit of discussion on core and scrapper recently around the bizzares and I use them alot (for all their faults) and I have a wide build diversity (even in each specialisation). Out of all the core utilities, turrets are at the bottom of the pile and I like what you are proposing with them in terms of cooldowns and overcharge abilities. Gadgets though... always been the coolest ideas but always slightly behind the curve in terms of strength. The newer ammo updates have done wonders for RB and PBR and I think that the same treatment on SS would be welcome too...

    what got me thinking about slickshoes though was that Slicks are suposed to get you out of a sticky situation and the CC and SB did a great job of it back in the day but in todays heavy aoe CC crowd, it's lack luster in that role. I would propose when traited with gadgeteer, to add either 1 stack for 2 secs or 2 stacks for 1 sec of stability on the f# stunbreak aswell as superspeed or give it the ammo mechanic with 1 stack stab for 1 sec (in adition to current effect) to partially counter heavy cc spam. This would also indirectly buff scrappers who make use of rapid regen or mass momentum. I feel that holo build would still benefit from kinetic battery mich more.... thoughts?

    Don't forget the suggested enhancements to mine field and throw mine I suggested... That would be the real hypothetical MVP.

    I think the Slick Shoes stunbreak is currently awesome, the speed lasts for a good amount! I'm not sure Stability or Ammo would be my first choice to improve it. We just put long stabilities on Defense field and Elixir U.

    If I was going to nudge Slick Shoes toolbelt, I would allow the Engineer to suppress the effects of immobilize while under the effects. But I don't think we need to buff it if the utility portion is good enough to use.

    twitch.tv/chaithh
    Forum Lord Chaith

  • @Chaith.8256 said:

    @Peutrifectus.4830 said:
    there's been a fair bit of discussion on core and scrapper recently around the bizzares and I use them alot (for all their faults) and I have a wide build diversity (even in each specialisation). Out of all the core utilities, turrets are at the bottom of the pile and I like what you are proposing with them in terms of cooldowns and overcharge abilities. Gadgets though... always been the coolest ideas but always slightly behind the curve in terms of strength. The newer ammo updates have done wonders for RB and PBR and I think that the same treatment on SS would be welcome too...

    what got me thinking about slickshoes though was that Slicks are suposed to get you out of a sticky situation and the CC and SB did a great job of it back in the day but in todays heavy aoe CC crowd, it's lack luster in that role. I would propose when traited with gadgeteer, to add either 1 stack for 2 secs or 2 stacks for 1 sec of stability on the f# stunbreak aswell as superspeed or give it the ammo mechanic with 1 stack stab for 1 sec (in adition to current effect) to partially counter heavy cc spam. This would also indirectly buff scrappers who make use of rapid regen or mass momentum. I feel that holo build would still benefit from kinetic battery mich more.... thoughts?

    Don't forget the suggested enhancements to mine field and throw mine I suggested... That would be the real hypothetical MVP.

    I think the Slick Shoes stunbreak is currently awesome, the speed lasts for a good amount! I'm not sure Stability or Ammo would be my first choice to improve it. We just put long stabilities on Defense field and Elixir U.

    If I was going to nudge Slick Shoes toolbelt, I would allow the Engineer to suppress the effects of immobilize while under the effects. But I don't think we need to buff it if the utility portion is good enough to use.

    Now there's something. If Goggles becomes the stunbreak with short immunity to blind, weakness, vulnerability, whist slickshoes toolbelt stun break grants superspeed and short immunity to cripple, slow and chill. Both are thematic to the utility, add value to their practical function and aren't to0 strong :)

    Sparkr's Wonderful World of Engineering - https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCEONFRaJV2u2f12ytXEir9A

  • @miriforst.1290 said:
    regarding wvw. Count the numbers of engis you see in wvw. do it.

    You will find more guardians, more necros, more eles, more spellbreakers etc in squads. And outside of squads you will be dived by evasion spamming burst classes like the disaster that is condi mirrage or even thieves or similar. You might see some holos but they are rare. So why isn't the holo as used and as op in wvw as in pvp? Same reason the engineer has always been op in spvp. Cos melee cleave and circles of pain hurts when your success depends on a point one swordslash across. And team support matters less the less expected allies there are in a fight.

    Im a scrapper and i do not like what holo has become but they are among my least worries when roaming OR playing in squads.

    If i see or hear another spoopy scary skeleton im going to throw up. And another firebrand oneliner and im going to cry.

    I see lots of scrappers and holos on my server, less frequent than firebrands or scourges for sure, but definitely not the rarest. Scrappers definitely get a lot of love, people do appreciate what they bring to a zerg. My server is pretty high pop, so roamers are a lot rarer, I roam with a havoc group from my guild from time to time. The truth is, regardless of class, your not very useful when your by yourself in WvW. You can basically flip camps and kill dolyaks, which you could do easily with rocket boots and grenades.

  • Chaith.8256Chaith.8256 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 5, 2018

    New update:

    Core Engineer is severely lacking in the survival department. Here's a way to buff Core Engineer survival that will not impact Scrapper/Holo in any way, that is a fundemental change to Backpack Regenerator to make it work for dynamic kit-swapping playstyles only!!

    Backpack Regenerator: Currently: Recover health each second while in an Engineering kit. New: Healing reduced to 80 per second, down from 117. Using a skill in a kit grants the stacking buff for 5 seconds, one stack per unique kit. Maximum stack of 3.

    twitch.tv/chaithh
    Forum Lord Chaith

  • Chaith.8256Chaith.8256 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Not much has changed from the Aug 28th mini patch, notable improvements being:

    • Glob Shot velocity increase
    • Elixir H cast time decrease to .75s
    • Holosmith shaves to: 17% Holo Leap damage nerf, Spectrum Shield, Prime Light Beam, Prismatic Singularity cooldown nerfs.
    • Orbital Command trait 44% damage buff

    Hopefully a bigger balance patch will come in for later this year. These above changes were not stimulating enough to get my undivided attention..

    Engineers, your thoughts and hopes as to what will get changed?

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    Forum Lord Chaith

  • I still feel holo mode being a tool belt skill is killing build diversity in competitive modes. The synergy with static discharge and kinetic battery is why holo forge damage gets constantly nerfed. I also feel always giving up something by choosing rifle vs pistol shield which kits do not compensate for. Either mobility and immobilize of rifle or blind/block and defense of pistol shield. With weapon swap and kits would still be weak, but at least viable.

  • Chaith.8256Chaith.8256 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Tehologist.5841 said:
    I still feel holo mode being a tool belt skill is killing build diversity in competitive modes. The synergy with static discharge and kinetic battery is why holo forge damage gets constantly nerfed. I also feel always giving up something by choosing rifle vs pistol shield which kits do not compensate for. Either mobility and immobilize of rifle or blind/block and defense of pistol shield. With weapon swap and kits would still be weak, but at least viable.

    I can't wholly agree with some of these statements,

    If you don't run Photon Wall for the quick Toolbelt Activation every 7s, then you have very little synergy with Static Discharge and only decent synergy with Kinetic Battery. Photon Forge has no synergy with Static Discharge in fact (the bolts fly randomly into the ground). Without Photon Wall, most Holosmith builds will run Adrenal Implant over Kinetic Battery in fact. It doesn't have overpowered synergy. Particle Accelerator could possibly see some shaving tweaks though.

    Also, Rifle and Toolkit have a very well rounded weapon combo synergy that has historically replaced off-hand Shield's functionality in PvP quite well. Rifle & Toolkit was everything before Core Specs & HoT. Shield is quite obsolete in PvP currently too, Double Elixir S and Photon Wall serve better than using Shield. Shield is still a fun option with Overshield + Sword/Shield tank Holo.

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    Forum Lord Chaith