Where's Grenth? — Guild Wars 2 Forums

Where's Grenth?

I'm disappointed that Grenth didn't stay. Given this is the god of strict ethics it makes no sense to me that he'd ever leave his only home and those he watched over.

I was hoping for a twist reveal that Grenth had stayed and was going to reveal himself to help stop Balthazaar. Who knows maybe they still can, though, it does seem awkward at this point given the story so far is only one god stayed.

I worry the story is going to be the gods gave up their divine traits when they left Tyria. Balthazaar already said honor is worthless. And that really makes them feel like a waste or a missing part of human's culture in game. Just another big bad to fight so we can leave the dragons be for a bit. And what does that say of the traits and skills that are supposed to be blessings of the gods? Kind of hoping for a few less plot holes or at the very least not rewriting the gods to be petty.

Comments

  • Teratus.2859Teratus.2859 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Atm we really don't know why the gods left.. nor why one of them stayed..

    It's anyone's guess right now as to what's going on with them.

  • It seems pretty clear to me that Balthazaar is acting like every other carbon copy god of war. Seeking only power at the expense of all. Even if it doesn't destroy Tyria he's bound and determined to gain power and dominion over Tyria. This has pretty much already been revealed in the LS3.

  • Teratus.2859Teratus.2859 Member ✭✭✭✭

    True..
    We need a bit more clarification on why he's doing this..
    Atm all I get is that he's been or at least feels betrayed by the other gods.. but why this has happened we just don't know atm.

  • ugrakarma.9416ugrakarma.9416 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 15, 2017

    In the episode "Cathedral of Silence" of Personal Story, demonstrates that we can get help from Grenth through his avatars. Although in the chapter it requires an "exchange" to get the help. That is, it does not necessarily have to return, we already have too many ex-machines in the plot. Trivializing divine interference is very risky move for the quality of the story. I would find it very interesting a reappearance of Priestess Rhie, .

    "It's a testament to the folly of the humans and their gods. They say Arah was sacred, but all I see is one big dragon nest."(Rytlock Brimstone)

  • I took the gods as a pantheon where balance is maintained through keeping each other in check. As one strives for power other/others step in to keep balance.

  • @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:
    Having turned an entire sea into a desert, one of their own sparked a war that resulted in genocide of a nation and a great loss of life of another race, I can easily see that Grenth would be in favor of the gods leaving so they don't kitten kitten up even more.

    You what?? Are you saying Abaddon turned the Crystal Sea to a desert? I thought we have no exact details of how exactly the Crystal Sea suddenly changed with land heaving to erode it and become the Crystal Desert; whether it happened in the blink of an eye or it was drained slowly... seeing as some human Margonites lingered after Abaddon was imprisoned with his transformed Margonites; it would make most sense to me if the sea actually drained instantly from the force of the blow that struck Abaddon down and caused the crater, because if it slowly drained, wouldn't the remaining Margonites then have had time to sail their ships back into the Clashing Seas? Instead, it seems like they became shipwrecked and you see all those deconstructed ships around the Crystal Desert turned housing and temples reaching towards the skies.

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  • Konig Des Todes.2086Konig Des Todes.2086 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 15, 2017

    @Egrimm Van Horstmann.7921 said:
    I took the gods as a pantheon where balance is maintained through keeping each other in check. As one strives for power other/others step in to keep balance.

    That's never really been brought up before, except with Abaddon. But we never had a case where gods "strives for power" beyond Abaddon either. The closest other case would be Dhuum, who was by description a sadistic kitten, but the gods never did anything as far as we know in regards to that. And we don't know the circumstances around Abaddon's succession (or any other gods' potential succession).

    Seems more like the gods' solution to one of them getting out of hand is to find a replacement, rather than actively keeping them in check. Abaddon forced the other gods' hands by starting a full out war among followers.

    @Dondarrion.2748 said:

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:
    Having turned an entire sea into a desert, one of their own sparked a war that resulted in genocide of a nation and a great loss of life of another race, I can easily see that Grenth would be in favor of the gods leaving so they don't kitten kitten up even more.

    You what?? Are you saying Abaddon turned the Crystal Sea to a desert? I thought we have no exact details of how exactly the Crystal Sea suddenly changed with land heaving to erode it and become the Crystal Desert; whether it happened in the blink of an eye or it was drained slowly... seeing as some human Margonites lingered after Abaddon was imprisoned with his transformed Margonites; it would make most sense to me if the sea actually drained instantly from the force of the blow that struck Abaddon down and caused the crater, because if it slowly drained, wouldn't the remaining Margonites then have had time to sail their ships back into the Clashing Seas? Instead, it seems like they became shipwrecked and you see all those deconstructed ships around the Crystal Desert turned housing and temples reaching towards the skies.

    It's always been known that the Crystal Sea got turned into a desert when the five gods defeated Abaddon - well, known since Nightfall. We don't know how fast it happened, but the cause was Abaddon's defeat through and through.

    The "deconstructed ships" in the Crystal Desert are from before it was turned into a sea - at least at Thirsty River:

    The Margonites, as you might have surmised by their architecture, were a sea-going culture, and they simply floated their way out here, looking for Ascension, back when only the tops of dunes stuck out of the water.

    https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Ghostly_Hero_(PvE)

    In order to have "floated their way out here", there had to be water. Whether they were built pre or post-Exodus, there was enough water when the Margonites went there for Ascension to sail ships.

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  • Dhuum the god who Grenth imprisoned and took his place/throne? That sounds like a pantheon keeping check. A new god is brought forth to keep the balance of the six.

  • The thing is that Grenth wasn't part of the pantheon when he took Dhuum down, and as far as we are ever led to believe the other gods never interfered either for or against - it's not even clear if the other gods knew that Grenth was challenging Dhuum. The five gods merely accepted Grenth to take Dhuum's place in the pantheon after Grenth had already taken Dhuum's powers as god.

    And that isn't really "stepping in to keep things in check" because they literally did nothing. At the very most, and this would be making completely unfounded hypothesizing, they told Grenth to supplant Dhuum without doing anything themselves.

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  • @Egrimm Van Horstmann.7921 said:
    Dhuum the god who Grenth imprisoned and took his place/throne? That sounds like a pantheon keeping check. A new god is brought forth to keep the balance of the six.

    So your saying that the soul of Trehane has ascended after HoT to take the place of the God of Fire? Interesting!

  • Albione.3894Albione.3894 Member ✭✭
    edited September 15, 2017

    I'm sort of hoping Grenth will turn up, or at least offer aid, against Balthazar. There's been a couple of lines from the story so far that might suggest a possible method of stopping a fire god:

    Taimi: Marjory mentioned a base on Fire Islands. If he wants to absorb a dragon's power, that'd be the place to do it. Right on top of Primordus. And, if I remember correctly, he's also the God of Fire, so... Primordus over Jormag.

    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Taimi%27s_Pet_Project#At_Rata_Novus

    And:

    Magister Sieran: That statue of Grenth has been leaking magic. I couldn't think of anything else that matches the power of the Sanguinary Blade. We'll take some of the shavings from the statue. If we can build a containment vessel to hold those safely, it should be able to suppress the sword.

    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Containment#Reaper.27s_Gate

    These suggest that powerful magical entities using the same field of magic as one another are more effective at resisting said magic. Balthazar didn't try going face-to-face with Jormag because in his current state he couldn't guarantee that he'd survive long enough to siphon its magic off. So, what better way to dampen the spirits of a rogue god than with our very own god tier version of the ice bucket challenge.

  • ugrakarma.9416ugrakarma.9416 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 15, 2017

    @Albione.3894 said:
    I'm sort of hoping Grenth will turn up, or at least offer aid, against Balthazar. There's been a couple of lines from the story so far that might suggest a possible method of stopping a fire god:

    Taimi: Marjory mentioned a base on Fire Islands. If he wants to absorb a dragon's power, that'd be the place to do it. Right on top of Primordus. And, if I remember correctly, he's also the God of Fire, so... Primordus over Jormag.

    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Taimi%27s_Pet_Project#At_Rata_Novus

    And:

    Magister Sieran: That statue of Grenth has been leaking magic. I couldn't think of anything else that matches the power of the Sanguinary Blade. We'll take some of the shavings from the statue. If we can build a containment vessel to hold those safely, it should be able to suppress the sword.

    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Containment#Reaper.27s_Gate

    These suggest that powerful magical entities using the same field of magic as one another are more effective at resisting said magic. So, Balthazar didn't try going face-to-face with Jormag because in his current state he couldn't guarantee that he'd survive long enough to siphon its magic off.

    i hope so! all grenth related stuff in personal history have fascinating dialogues, it's in special the episode Cathedral of Silence, I never forgot that phrase:

    _**"Let it be so. I will see you again, heroes... in every swing of your enemy's blade, I will be there." **_

    source
    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Cathedral_of_Silence_(story)

    "It's a testament to the folly of the humans and their gods. They say Arah was sacred, but all I see is one big dragon nest."(Rytlock Brimstone)

  • ugrakarma.9416ugrakarma.9416 Member ✭✭✭✭

    in Cathedral of Silence episode, have a window to portray some Grenth worship in Elona.

    Who was Mausollus?
    A warrior-priest who carried the worship of Grenth from Arah into Elona. He crossed the sea that bore his name, and lived among the peoples of Vabbi and Istan.
    Talk more option tango.png Tell me more about Grenth. (same as "what's the history of this temple")
    Talk back option tango.png Can I ask you another question?
    Talk end option tango.png Fascinating. Thank you, Priestess Rhie.

    "It's a testament to the folly of the humans and their gods. They say Arah was sacred, but all I see is one big dragon nest."(Rytlock Brimstone)

  • @Tyrone Jones.3724 said:

    @Egrimm Van Horstmann.7921 said:
    Dhuum the god who Grenth imprisoned and took his place/throne? That sounds like a pantheon keeping check. A new god is brought forth to keep the balance of the six.

    So your saying that the soul of Trehane has ascended after HoT to take the place of the God of Fire? Interesting!

    What are you talking about. Sylvari don't have souls. Silly you.

    @Albione.3894 said:
    I'm sort of hoping Grenth will turn up, or at least offer aid, against Balthazar. There's been a couple of lines from the story so far that might suggest a possible method of stopping a fire god:

    Taimi: Marjory mentioned a base on Fire Islands. If he wants to absorb a dragon's power, that'd be the place to do it. Right on top of Primordus. And, if I remember correctly, he's also the God of Fire, so... Primordus over Jormag.

    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Taimi%27s_Pet_Project#At_Rata_Novus

    And:

    Magister Sieran: That statue of Grenth has been leaking magic. I couldn't think of anything else that matches the power of the Sanguinary Blade. We'll take some of the shavings from the statue. If we can build a containment vessel to hold those safely, it should be able to suppress the sword.

    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Containment#Reaper.27s_Gate

    These suggest that powerful magical entities using the same field of magic as one another are more effective at resisting said magic. Balthazar didn't try going face-to-face with Jormag because in his current state he couldn't guarantee that he'd survive long enough to siphon its magic off. So, what better way to dampen the spirits of a rogue god than with our very own god tier version of the ice bucket challenge.

    Interesting notion, and there is one more thing that supports it (Statues of Grenth in Orr and the Cathedral of Silence both are "resisting" Zhaitan's corruption). But ultimately I think Balthazar went after Primordus because of proximity. Jormag is up in who-knows-where Far Shiverpeaks, presumably halfway between Bitterfrost Frontier and the Hall of Monuments; Kralkatorrik is off in the Crystal Desert; the deep sea dragon is in the watery depths. From the Bloodstone Fen/Forsaken Thicket area, the Ring of Fire is far closer.

    I think that if Balthazar cared that much about matching domains, he would go after sleeping Primordus. After all, being asleep shouldn't make the Elder Dragons invulnerable.

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  • Egrimm Van Horstmann.7921Egrimm Van Horstmann.7921 Member ✭✭✭
    edited September 16, 2017

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:
    The thing is that Grenth wasn't part of the pantheon when he took Dhuum down, and as far as we are ever led to believe the other gods never interfered either for or against - it's not even clear if the other gods knew that Grenth was challenging Dhuum. The five gods merely accepted Grenth to take Dhuum's place in the pantheon after Grenth had already taken Dhuum's powers as god.

    And that isn't really "stepping in to keep things in check" because they literally did nothing. At the very most, and this would be making completely unfounded hypothesizing, they told Grenth to supplant Dhuum without doing anything themselves.

    True, but his mother was amongst the gods, so that doesn't rule out her influence/interference in him taking Dhuum's throne. After all Dhuum was assisting Abbadon which would put him at odds with the other gods in Nightfall.

  • Konig Des Todes.2086Konig Des Todes.2086 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 16, 2017

    I wouldn't be so fast to think Dwayna assisted Grenth just because she was his mother. There's a very clear rivalry between the two as shown in Wintersday in GW1, where the avatars of Dwayna and Grenth duke it out (figuratively and literally). Plus there is this line in the Orrian History Scrolls:

    "Standing before his immortal mother, Grenth claimed his place among the gods. Where his father had fallen, Grenth would rise."

    The use of "claimed his place" sounds to me like Grenth had to prove himself - and did so by defeating Dhuum - before being recognized even by his mother.

    On the second bit: nothing says that Dhuum and Abaddon were working together pre-Exodus; in fact, at that time Abaddon was still a "good and kind" god. Their alliance may have been formed from a "we were both ousted by the others, let's work together" concept. After the Exodus, Abaddon wanted revenge on all the gods, Dhuum wanted revenge on Grenth, and Menzies wanted to overthrow Balthazar - an alliance there makes sense.

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  • Given that Dwayna and Dhuum are opposing gods, it makes sense her son would have influence to overtake him. I'm pretty sure before Grenth ascension to the throne Dwayna's and Dhuum's avatars would have been fighting symbolizing the struggle of life and death. I really don't find that compelling as to Dwayna not liking or being against influencing Grenth to take Dhuum's place. It also would make sense Dwayna would prefer her son over the opposing god.

    The main reason I find Grenth's absence troublesome here is this. Grenth promotes the casting off of illusions and "the gilded trappings of sanctity," and encourages the perception of the world as it truly is. This fits with his role as judge to dead souls, and perhaps opposes him to Lyssa, goddess of illusions. He also promotes not fearing those claimed to be divine, and his followers seek to cast down false deities. This is him and Tyria is his home, would be tragic for him not to be there.

  • I wouldn't be so fast to claim Dwayna and Dhuum as "opposing gods". Though more modern western cultures see life and death as opposites, just as many (if not more) cultures see life and death as compliments (given that one cannot have death without life, and without death life would have less meaning). Without any lore indication of any form of struggle or conflict of interest between Dhuum and the other gods, it's impossible to really say just how far the other gods went.

    All we have to go off of, really, is that Grenth worked with seven mortals and had to claim his right to godhood despite being born of a god. And that alone indicates no interaction or motivation from the other gods - at least directly or importantly enough to be made part of the story of Grenth's ascension.

    @Egrimm Van Horstmann.7921 said:
    The main reason I find Grenth's absence troublesome here is this. Grenth promotes the casting off of illusions and "the gilded trappings of sanctity," and encourages the perception of the world as it truly is. This fits with his role as judge to dead souls, and perhaps opposes him to Lyssa, goddess of illusions. He also promotes not fearing those claimed to be divine, and his followers seek to cast down false deities. This is him and Tyria is his home, would be tragic for him not to be there.

    I'm not sure where any of that comes into play with PoF, however. The last prominent group to have false deities is now destroyed (thanks to Balthazar, no less), and Balthazar is not holding any false trappings of sanctity or holding up illusions. While Tyria may be his home, he hasn't been part of mortal Tyria for nearly 1,400 years. Normal people lose their ties to their home when gone for 10 or 20 years, can't imagine how it'd be after over a thousand. Especially when he was known as a "prince of ice and sorrow" - if he was representing sorrow before ascending to godhood, I can't imagine he cared much for his home as demigod.

    All these squares make a circle.
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  • We do contact Grenth in the Personal story. The avatar that appears speaks for him, and he's pretty much still doing his thing ruling the underworld and not interacting much with Tyria.

  • That was definitely a refreshing part of the story to see interaction with Grenth's avatar.

  • @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:
    I wouldn't be so fast to claim Dwayna and Dhuum as "opposing gods". Though more modern western cultures see life and death as opposites, just as many (if not more) cultures see life and death as compliments (given that one cannot have death without life, and without death life would have less meaning). Without any lore indication of any form of struggle or conflict of interest between Dhuum and the other gods, it's impossible to really say just how far the other gods went.

    All we have to go off of, really, is that Grenth worked with seven mortals and had to claim his right to godhood despite being born of a god. And that alone indicates no interaction or motivation from the other gods - at least directly or importantly enough to be made part of the story of Grenth's ascension.

    @Egrimm Van Horstmann.7921 said:
    The main reason I find Grenth's absence troublesome here is this. Grenth promotes the casting off of illusions and "the gilded trappings of sanctity," and encourages the perception of the world as it truly is. This fits with his role as judge to dead souls, and perhaps opposes him to Lyssa, goddess of illusions. He also promotes not fearing those claimed to be divine, and his followers seek to cast down false deities. This is him and Tyria is his home, would be tragic for him not to be there.

    I'm not sure where any of that comes into play with PoF, however. The last prominent group to have false deities is now destroyed (thanks to Balthazar, no less), and Balthazar is not holding any false trappings of sanctity or holding up illusions. While Tyria may be his home, he hasn't been part of mortal Tyria for nearly 1,400 years. Normal people lose their ties to their home when gone for 10 or 20 years, can't imagine how it'd be after over a thousand. Especially when he was known as a "prince of ice and sorrow" - if he was representing sorrow before ascending to godhood, I can't imagine he cared much for his home as demigod.

    Balthazaar didn't destroy a false deity. Lazarus was killed by us and Livia who was seeking to kill the Mursaat. Can't give Balthazaar credit there, since he ran off to try to kill another dragon during that time which is why we're chasing after him. All Balthazaar has actually done since he revealed himself is try to kill dragons to attain power. The only quote good thing he supposedly did was assist us in keeping Aurene safe. But given his attempts to kill dragons for power I wouldn't be surprised if he was saving Aurene to steal her power at a later date when we wouldn't have the power to stop him.

  • Thalador.4218Thalador.4218 Member ✭✭
    edited September 17, 2017

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:
    I wouldn't be so fast to claim Dwayna and Dhuum as "opposing gods". Though more modern western cultures see life and death as opposites, just as many (if not more) cultures see life and death as compliments (given that one cannot have death without life, and without death life would have less meaning). Without any lore indication of any form of struggle or conflict of interest between Dhuum and the other gods, it's impossible to really say just how far the other gods went.

    All we have to go off of, really, is that Grenth worked with seven mortals and had to claim his right to godhood despite being born of a god. And that alone indicates no interaction or motivation from the other gods - at least directly or importantly enough to be made part of the story of Grenth's ascension.

    First of all, my apologies for being a grammar Nazee, but you meant complements. Aaand now I immediately had the absurd mental image of Dhuum complimenting Dwayna and trying to flirt with her after Malchor's death but before Grenth's ascension - and that she sicced her son on Dhuum because his advances were starting to get annoying.

    Second of all, and on a significantly more serious note, I am very much convinced the Guild Wars universe does belong to the group that views life and death as opposing forces. But more importantly, I just cannot see Dwayna, who is also known for her mercy and is pretty much one of the strongest advocates and patrons of healing that wards off death and magics that revert death back into life, not criticizing and disapproving of Dhuum's methods, which were universally seen as unjust, cruel, depriving people of their lives just because they were lucky or skilled enough to escape death (cheat him of souls from his perspective). While it's true there's no evidence to support the notion that Grenth was given divine aid or was otherwise encouraged by members of the Five (or specifically his own mother) to take on Dhuum and supplant him, I am positive that demigod* or not, he needed some kind of extra protection against a ruthless god of death who theoretically could kill anyone with a thought. Who else could give such defense against death other than the goddess of life, who is also the mother of the boy going up against a merciless and malevolent nemesis of hers (I hazard the risk even a goddess can have motherly instincts).

    • Although it was taken from the gw.dat files and thus may not entirely be considered canon, Abaddon created quite a few demigods over his millennial imprisonment in the Realm of Torment. And when those demigods rebelled against him and challenged him, he put them all down with ease. So a demigod vs. god fight without extra divine aid could easily result in the defeat of the demigod, which can lend a bit more credit to the idea that Grenth was supported by members of the Five against Dhuum.
  • @Egrimm Van Horstmann.7921 said:

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:
    I wouldn't be so fast to claim Dwayna and Dhuum as "opposing gods". Though more modern western cultures see life and death as opposites, just as many (if not more) cultures see life and death as compliments (given that one cannot have death without life, and without death life would have less meaning). Without any lore indication of any form of struggle or conflict of interest between Dhuum and the other gods, it's impossible to really say just how far the other gods went.

    All we have to go off of, really, is that Grenth worked with seven mortals and had to claim his right to godhood despite being born of a god. And that alone indicates no interaction or motivation from the other gods - at least directly or importantly enough to be made part of the story of Grenth's ascension.

    @Egrimm Van Horstmann.7921 said:
    The main reason I find Grenth's absence troublesome here is this. Grenth promotes the casting off of illusions and "the gilded trappings of sanctity," and encourages the perception of the world as it truly is. This fits with his role as judge to dead souls, and perhaps opposes him to Lyssa, goddess of illusions. He also promotes not fearing those claimed to be divine, and his followers seek to cast down false deities. This is him and Tyria is his home, would be tragic for him not to be there.

    I'm not sure where any of that comes into play with PoF, however. The last prominent group to have false deities is now destroyed (thanks to Balthazar, no less), and Balthazar is not holding any false trappings of sanctity or holding up illusions. While Tyria may be his home, he hasn't been part of mortal Tyria for nearly 1,400 years. Normal people lose their ties to their home when gone for 10 or 20 years, can't imagine how it'd be after over a thousand. Especially when he was known as a "prince of ice and sorrow" - if he was representing sorrow before ascending to godhood, I can't imagine he cared much for his home as demigod.

    Balthazaar didn't destroy a false deity. Lazarus was killed by us and Livia who was seeking to kill the Mursaat. Can't give Balthazaar credit there, since he ran off to try to kill another dragon during that time which is why we're chasing after him. All Balthazaar has actually done since he revealed himself is try to kill dragons to attain power. The only quote good thing he supposedly did was assist us in keeping Aurene safe. But given his attempts to kill dragons for power I wouldn't be surprised if he was saving Aurene to steal her power at a later date when we wouldn't have the power to stop him.

    Balthazar destroyed (directly and indirectly) the White Mantle who worshiped a false deity. I never said that Lazarus was destroyed by Balthazar, but the group that worship false deities was. Hence the use of "group [...] is" and not "deities are".

    And arguably Balthazar did more good than just protect Aurene. He also prevented an already-destabilized Bloodstone from destroying half of Central Tyria (he didn't lie about that when he was petitioning alliance with the PC), and he did turn a force of evil into a force of potential good. Honestly, it's not Balthazar's fault that we killed two Elder Dragons thus putting Tyria on the tipping point already. He might have returned intending to kill the first Elder Dragon, thus Tyria wouldn't have had an issue. But that's all supposition, along with the notion that if the PC hadn't instigated conflict with Balthazar or had Balthazar revealed himself at Tarir then perhaps, just perhaps, we could have worked things out diplomatically.

    @Thalador.4218 said:

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:
    I wouldn't be so fast to claim Dwayna and Dhuum as "opposing gods". Though more modern western cultures see life and death as opposites, just as many (if not more) cultures see life and death as compliments (given that one cannot have death without life, and without death life would have less meaning). Without any lore indication of any form of struggle or conflict of interest between Dhuum and the other gods, it's impossible to really say just how far the other gods went.

    All we have to go off of, really, is that Grenth worked with seven mortals and had to claim his right to godhood despite being born of a god. And that alone indicates no interaction or motivation from the other gods - at least directly or importantly enough to be made part of the story of Grenth's ascension.

    First of all, my apologies for being a grammar Nazee, but you meant complements. Aaand now I immediately had the absurd mental image of Dhuum complimenting Dwayna and trying to flirt with her after Malchor's death but before Grenth's ascension - and that she sicced her son on Dhuum because his advances were starting to get annoying.

    Second of all, and on a significantly more serious note, I am very much convinced the Guild Wars universe does belong to the group that views life and death as opposing forces. But more importantly, I just cannot see Dwayna, who is also known for her mercy and is pretty much one of the strongest advocates and patrons of healing that wards off death and magics that revert death back into life, not criticizing and disapproving of Dhuum's methods, which were universally seen as unjust, cruel, depriving people of their lives just because they were lucky or skilled enough to escape death (cheat him of souls from his perspective). While it's true there's no evidence to support the notion that Grenth was given divine aid or was otherwise encouraged by members of the Five (or specifically his own mother) to take on Dhuum and supplant him, I am positive that demigod* or not, he needed some kind of extra protection against a ruthless god of death who theoretically could kill anyone with a thought. Who else could give such defense against death other than the goddess of life, who is also the mother of the boy going up against a merciless and malevolent nemesis of hers (I hazard the risk even a goddess can have motherly instincts).

    • Although it was taken from the gw.dat files and thus may not entirely be considered canon, Abaddon created quite a few demigods over his millennial imprisonment in the Realm of Torment. And when those demigods rebelled against him and challenged him, he put them all down with ease. So a demigod vs. god fight without extra divine aid could easily result in the defeat of the demigod, which can lend a bit more credit to the idea that Grenth was supported by members of the Five against Dhuum.

    I wouldn't be so fast to say that Tyrians view life and death solely as opposites. Given this line:

    The terminal presents you with a question: "Grenth is the child of one of the other six gods of Tyria. Which one??"

    Dwayna.

    "Correct. In response, Grenth gifted the world with death, that they might understand there were consequences to their actions."

    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Quiz_Terminal

    "In response" to Dwayna being the goddess of life and giving birth to Grenth, he "gifted the world with death". The entire notion of making Grenth Dwayna's son kind of feels like they were wanting to establish life and death among the current pantheon not as opposites but complements as well.

    That said, I can see Dwayna being verbally opposed but not actually acting out against Dhuum. Main reason could be the same for why they didn't just replace Abaddon when he rebelled - whatever that may be - or it could be because while leader of the gods she's not dictatoral in how each god acts. Otherwise I cannot imagine she'd let Balthazar push humanity to trying to conquer the lands.

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  • Balthazaar wasn't seeking to end the White Mantle. He was after the Bloodstone for power, remember he was posing as their god not trying to undue them until we arrived on the scene and started causing trouble. He's after power and who can give him power is the one he's interested in. This is literally what he did in living story 3. He's said and acted in a way that shows he only seeks power not allies.

    Life and death are a cycle of opposing forces like Yin and Yang. In this cycle both are necessary, but both are opposites since one cannot be dead and alive at the same time. So Dwayna by proxy would be opposed to Dhuum. So if we look at pantheons her son being the opposing god would give her power vs it not being a part of her directly. I'm not saying Dwayna is malicious, more that in these scenarios the god prefers their offspring.

    Second I've found no info to confirm that Malchor's love/obsession for Dwayna was ever returned by the god. We still don't have confirmation who's Grenth's father, Malchor is a possibility, though that says nothing to it actually being so.

  • I wasn't talking about Balthazar's goal but his action's repercussions. Besides that though, he actively went to use the White Mantle and pitted them against Primordus and later used mercenaries instead of using his faithful like he is now. So he does seem to be avoiding using those who worship him. For one reason or another.

    Also I think you're painting Balthazar too flat for what little we have to go off of. Though ArenaNet has been poor with frontal presentation throughout... well, tbh, ever, they had always had some depth to their characters, even poorly done ones like Scarlet.

    To your life and death bit. I disagree. Also on one cannot be both... That is the literal meaning of undeath. And you literally have nothing to back up the claim that 'gods prefer their offspring'. These are gods we're talking about, they're meant to be alien in thought compared to humans - just as charr, asura, etc. Would be. It's not exactly a biological certainty for beings to hold a preference of blood ties.

    And I don't think we've been talking about Malchor. We never heard of Grenth's father's name but know him to be a mortal sculptor, and that Grenth was born half-god. Though there is one line to imply Dwayna held feelings for him:

    "When it was done, he asked Dwayna if she favored the image, and weeping, Dwayna allowed him to touch her face, that he might know the precision with which—even blind—he had carved her image."

    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Orrian_History_Scrolls#Arah:_City_of_the_Gods_and_The_Tragedy_of_Malchor

    Why was she weeping?

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  • Undeath really doesn't address the opposition of the concepts of life and death. Until Zhaitan's demise undeath/risen meant servitude against ones will. If to be alive is to control one's autonomy then death is to have no control. Undeath with autonomy would still be life like the unchained, vs undeath without autonomy the risen would be death. That is more of what the two concepts would mean in this fantasy setting.

    "But then, as she knew she must, the goddess Dwayna left and returned to Arah, leaving the sculptor alone." This is the following line, it doesn't confirm she had love for him more mercy for his blindness, by letting him touch her face she could let him know his work was complete.

  • There have been autonomous undead in gw1. Many Awakened were as were the EotN Orrian undead by all appearances, not to even consider the liches like Zoldark, Fendi Nin, Joko, and Khilbron. And I never said it "answered" anything about life and death being opposites or complements. I said that undeath is literally defined as being both alive but dead which you said is impossible.

    Technically, risen aren't undead either. They are Dragon minions and they are all atypical for what they are closest related to.

    Just as you can have cold fire you can have living corpses.

    And I didn't say that line was any confirmation of Dwayna's feelings. I outright said we have no confirmation on Grenth's father's identity still. I said that it was implication and that all implications put said father as Malchor. Implied, not confirmed. So please stop trying to put words in my mouth.

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  • Undead/ Undeath with autonomy is life. First off the literal interpretation of the word means it, un=not dead/death. So whether we're talking ghost of Ascalon, unchained, or other versions of this they are still technically life. The concept of Dhuum/Grenth is comparable to Discworld's Death (which is even noted in the WIKI) they both ruled/rule the underworld a stop between the deceased's final destination. And the reason I bring up Discworld is there's a story about undead seeking to be treated as living. So the concept does translate. Autonomous is a good way to separate life from golum/ animated dead.

  • draxynnic.3719draxynnic.3719 Member ✭✭✭✭

    It's probably more technically accurate that undead are neither dead nor living than to say that they're both.

    Incidentally, on Discworld's Death, it's actually part of the Discworld mechanics that Death simply facilitates the transition between life and afterlife, he has no jurisdiction over the latter. Instead, souls go to wherever they believe they'll go. Generally, at most, Death gives a few words of advice before leaving the soul to its own devices.

  • Yes Death isn't the lord the of the Underworld that's Azrael in the books, but I think in this game the two have somehow been mixed or mix of Hades and Discworld's death is more what Grenth/ Dhuum are.

  • Lily.1935Lily.1935 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Something to point out. Grenth was the god of death before the gods and humans came to tyria. We know this because of the lack of evidence of any worshipping of Dhuum in the human history. No statues exist of dhuum on tyria to our knowledge and there is no record of him in Orr or Cantha.

    Also we need to know that it is believed that Grenth had a human father, however it must be noted due to the timeline his father would not be anyone we know in the lore.

    In another note the god most likely to stand against Balthazar would be lyssa. Grenth has always been fairly indifferent to the plight of humans.

  • Maethor.2810Maethor.2810 Member ✭✭✭
    edited September 20, 2017

    @Lily.1935 said:
    Something to point out. Grenth was the god of death before the gods and humans came to tyria. We know this because of the lack of evidence of any worshipping of Dhuum in the human history. No statues exist of dhuum on tyria to our knowledge and there is no record of him in Orr or Cantha.

    Also we need to know that it is believed that Grenth had a human father, however it must be noted due to the timeline his father would not be anyone we know in the lore.

    In another note the god most likely to stand against Balthazar would be lyssa. Grenth has always been fairly indifferent to the plight of humans.

    Unfortunately, incorrect.

    Grenth is known as the first Tyrian born god so he could not have been a god before coming to Tyria, as he wasn't born yet. He also challenged and usurped Dhuum on Tyria at the Cathedral of Eternal Radiance in Orr - the location in which that happened is a PoI in Malchor's Leap.

  • I don't know over there maybe?

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