Lyssa's game — Guild Wars 2 Forums

Lyssa's game

Zania.8461Zania.8461 Member ✭✭

PoF spoilers follow:

So what game is the goddess of illusion is playing this time? There are few instances which indicate that she might have been in league (at least to an extend) with Balthazaar.

1) His acquisition of Mirror of Lyssa has not been explained, and is stated as being the primary reason for Balthazaar's ability to escape the note of the other gods until his plans moved too far. ("When he returned to this world, Balthazar disguised himself as Lazarus with Lyssa's Mirror—the only magic powerful enough to hide the truth from our eyes.")
2) During the conversation with Kormir, she states that "The rest of the Six—Dwayna, Grenth, Melandru, even Lyssa—reached an agreement. Balthazar had to be dealt with." Even Lyssa. She appears to have been the least likely (at least to Kormir) to join the pact.
3) Finally during his final moments Balthazaar states "Curse you, Dwayna! Melandru! Betraying one of your own! Grenth! Kormir! May the fires...take...you...all!" Lyssa's name is conspicuously absent.

So where does that leave the goddess worshiped by deceivers? Is she playing both sides of the conflict? Does she have her own motives?

Comments

  • draxynnic.3719draxynnic.3719 Member ✭✭✭

    It's a good question.

    My guess is that she possibly had more sympathy for Balthaddon than the others, for reasons unknown, but when push came to shove, she sided with the others. Possibly because, given that according to the lore in Orr she was the most reluctant to stop living among humans, she may have wanted to fight in their defence as well, but was finally persuaded that doing so could only make the situation worse. While Balthaddon probably wouldn't have been happy with her, if she had been the only one advocating for his side until the very end, that might explain why she's not on the curse list.

    The second option is that she did agree with Balthaddon, but unlike the headstrong Balthaddon, she recognised that it was a fight they couldn't win, and therefore acquiesced basically because she didn't think the fight was worth being taken down by the other four gods for.

    In either case, it's possible that she gave the mirror to Balthaddon on the principle that while she couldn't help him to escape, she could give him the means to not be immediately recaptured if he did escape. I don't think, however, that Lyssa would have agreed with the course Balthaddon did eventually take, unless ArenaNet is planning to character assassinate her like they did Balthazar.

  • Konig Des Todes.2086Konig Des Todes.2086 Member ✭✭✭
    edited November 14

    If there's a game in the first place. To play devil's advocate:

    1. Keep in mind that Balthazar did raid the Orrian reliquaries, and possibly elsewhere too, in his preparations for assaulting the Elder Dragons. We never learned what he took from his own reliquary, nor whether or not he entered any reliquary beyond his and Abaddon's and no proper time table for when he did this beyond that he had an aspect of Lazarus on hand when present (the presence of mercenaries does imply post Episode 1, but he could have sent a group there well after visiting). He might not have been given the mirror, but rather stole it.
    2. "Even Lyssa" doesn't mean very much. This smells to me more to be colorful writing/narrative rather than a hint of things to come or of subtle mechanations. Not to deny the possibility, but it could just be a case of "Lyssa happened to be the last one she named, so she included 'even' before the god's name".
    3. Keep in mind that this is Balthazar's dying words. When you're dying via crumbling apart, you don't exactly have time to give a monologue speech. He might have intended to curse Lyssa in the end, but couldn't before he would fall apart.

    Further, keep in mind that Lyssa was mocking Kormir for staying so long, which means that unless this act was one of hiding her motives (which seems weird given it would clearly not fool Kormir given point 2), Lyssa was not in agreement with Balthazar's plans. There's also no way that Lyssa could have predicted Balthazar being freed by a random charr doing things outside the view and control of the Six Gods.

    Though of all the gods, Lyssa and Kormir are the ones most likely to wish to help Tyrians with their plight. In Kormir's case, because she's so young a god - this resulted in her waiting until Path of Fire to leave them, and even blessed Tahlkora with telepathy after Joko had cut out her eyes and tongue and failed to Awaken her. In Lyssa's case, this is supported by her desire to live with humans in the past, and it could serve to be a motivating factor if she believed Balthazar wouldn't go full out Abaddon/Menzies on Tyrians.

  • Fenom.9457Fenom.9457 Member ✭✭✭

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:
    If there's a game in the first place. To play devil's advocate:

    1. Keep in mind that Balthazar did raid the Orrian reliquaries, and possibly elsewhere too, in his preparations for assaulting the Elder Dragons. We never learned what he took from his own reliquary, nor whether or not he entered any reliquary beyond his and Abaddon's and no proper time table for when he did this beyond that he had an aspect of Lazarus on hand when present (the presence of mercenaries does imply post Episode 1, but he could have sent a group there well after visiting). He might not have been given the mirror, but rather stole it.
    2. "Even Lyssa" doesn't mean very much. This smells to me more to be colorful writing/narrative rather than a hint of things to come or of subtle mechanations. Not to deny the possibility, but it could just be a case of "Lyssa happened to be the last one she named, so she included 'even' before the god's name".
    3. Keep in mind that this is Balthazar's dying words. When you're dying via crumbling apart, you don't exactly have time to give a monologue speech. He might have intended to curse Lyssa in the end, but couldn't before he would fall apart.

    Further, keep in mind that Lyssa was mocking Kormir for staying so long, which means that unless this act was one of hiding her motives (which seems weird given it would clearly not fool Kormir given point 2), Lyssa was not in agreement with Balthazar's plans. There's also no way that Lyssa could have predicted Balthazar being freed by a random charr doing things outside the view and control of the Six Gods.

    Though of all the gods, Lyssa and Kormir are the ones most likely to wish to help Tyrians with their plight. In Kormir's case, because she's so young a god - this resulted in her waiting until Path of Fire to leave them, and even blessed Tahlkora with telepathy after Joko had cut out her eyes and tongue and failed to Awaken her. In Lyssa's case, this is supported by her desire to live with humans in the past, and it could serve to be a motivating factor if she believed Balthazar wouldn't go full out Abaddon/Menzies on Tyrians.

    Lyssa still may turn into a villain if she decides that, before moving on permanently, she should pop back and wipe out the humans so only their new planet has their special species

    Yay ive been promoted

  • Tyson.5160Tyson.5160 Member ✭✭

    Seems odd to add all the other gods except for Lyssa from a development point of view, Balthazar dying or not. Individually the evidence is a tad weak but in its totality, it’s appears that Lyssa could return.

    In terms of Lyssa fooling Kormir, Lyssa is the goddess of illusion, Kormir even said that the mirror was powerful enough for her to be fooled as well.

    Kormir: When he returned to this world, Balthazar disguised himself as Lazarus with Lyssa's Mirror—the only magic powerful enough to hide the truth from our eyes.

    And that’s just an object that Lyssa created. Lyssa could have the whole pantheon fooled. It appears that they are breadcrumbing something for later.

  • draxynnic.3719draxynnic.3719 Member ✭✭✭

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:
    Though of all the gods, Lyssa and Kormir are the ones most likely to wish to help Tyrians with their plight. In Kormir's case, because she's so young a god - this resulted in her waiting until Path of Fire to leave them, and even blessed Tahlkora with telepathy after Joko had cut out her eyes and tongue and failed to Awaken her. In Lyssa's case, this is supported by her desire to live with humans in the past, and it could serve to be a motivating factor if she believed Balthazar wouldn't go full out Abaddon/Menzies on Tyrians.

    I'd say Dwayna as well. She is the goddess of compassion, after all, and GW1 did have quests given by her avatars such as 'give the ghosts of a couple one last meeting with their orphaned child to say their goodbyes and go to rest knowing their child is being looked after'. Which seems to indicate that she also cares.

    Possibly somewhat ruined by the fact that said child is probably now a Foefire ghost, but you never know...

  • The mirror of Lyssa might not even be a portable item. Back in GW1, there was a lake called The Mirror of Lyss in Vabbi, which is the place where they worship Lyssa. That same lake is now called the Grand Court of Sebelkeh in GW2 with a POI called "Ruins of the Mirror of Lyss". It is more plausible to me the mirror being talked about is the lake.

    IMO, Malice build-up should be independent of DE Mark. The DE Mark should only speed up the process -- not be the pre-requisite.
    http://sirvincentiii.com ~ In the beginning...there was Tarnished Coast...

  • Zania.8461Zania.8461 Member ✭✭

    Note, I am not saying that Lyssa is about to turn into another evil god that's going to go on rampage and start trying to murder Elder Dragons for fun and profit. I am mostly saying that she seems to be involved with Balthazaar's ploy on a deeper level than other gods. For all we know that involvement might be similar to the one described in the Parables of the Gods: Lyssa leading Balthazaar toward death by giving him false hope. Either way there is way too little information to make any sort of conclusions. I've posted this as a food for thought and to see if anyone has either spotted some other things I've missed or had some fun ideas on where this might lead.

    With regards to Mirror of Lyssa, I think that developers were at least planning to have it as a physical object - we see it shattered in Rata Novus after Balthazaar is unmasked by Kasmeer.

  • Ayakaru.6583Ayakaru.6583 Member ✭✭✭

    How can a god who left with the others be manipulating Balthazar?
    Given she's of the elusive brand, but even that has its limits when you try to trick the other gods into thinking you've left with them..

    To defeat the dragons, see the good in them.
    Zhaitan reunites lost ones, primordus creates fertile land, mordremoth spreads the green, and jormag..
    ..jormag? Who's that?

  • @Sir Vincent III.1286 said:
    The mirror of Lyssa might not even be a portable item. Back in GW1, there was a lake called The Mirror of Lyss in Vabbi, which is the place where they worship Lyssa. That same lake is now called the Grand Court of Sebelkeh in GW2 with a POI called "Ruins of the Mirror of Lyss". It is more plausible to me the mirror being talked about is the lake.

    Lyssa's Mirror is 100% a portable item. Marjory says that he carried it with him all the time, and we see it ourselves in Taimi's Pet Project, after we broke it.

  • @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

    @Sir Vincent III.1286 said:
    The mirror of Lyssa might not even be a portable item. Back in GW1, there was a lake called The Mirror of Lyss in Vabbi, which is the place where they worship Lyssa. That same lake is now called the Grand Court of Sebelkeh in GW2 with a POI called "Ruins of the Mirror of Lyss". It is more plausible to me the mirror being talked about is the lake.

    Lyssa's Mirror is 100% a portable item. Marjory says that he carried it with him all the time, and we see it ourselves in Taimi's Pet Project, after we broke it.

    As far as we know, the mirror is just that a mirror. To me, it's probably a way for Balthasar to see himself to not forget who he is. When we cornered him in the lab, we didn't break the illusion by breaking the mirror, Balthasar broke the illusion himself and breaking all the mirrors including the one he's holding in the process. Besides, he no longer needs the mirror to remind himself who he really is.

    IMO, Malice build-up should be independent of DE Mark. The DE Mark should only speed up the process -- not be the pre-requisite.
    http://sirvincentiii.com ~ In the beginning...there was Tarnished Coast...

  • draxynnic.3719draxynnic.3719 Member ✭✭✭

    @Sir Vincent III.1286 said:

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

    @Sir Vincent III.1286 said:
    The mirror of Lyssa might not even be a portable item. Back in GW1, there was a lake called The Mirror of Lyss in Vabbi, which is the place where they worship Lyssa. That same lake is now called the Grand Court of Sebelkeh in GW2 with a POI called "Ruins of the Mirror of Lyss". It is more plausible to me the mirror being talked about is the lake.

    Lyssa's Mirror is 100% a portable item. Marjory says that he carried it with him all the time, and we see it ourselves in Taimi's Pet Project, after we broke it.

    As far as we know, the mirror is just that a mirror. To me, it's probably a way for Balthasar to see himself to not forget who he is. When we cornered him in the lab, we didn't break the illusion by breaking the mirror, Balthasar broke the illusion himself and breaking all the mirrors including the one he's holding in the process. Besides, he no longer needs the mirror to remind himself who he really is.

    Everything we're told indicates that the mirror was the source of the illusion. What probably happened is that Balthaddon realised that the mirror was about to break, and decided it was better to control the circumstances of the reveal to maximum effect.

    Otherwise, everything the characters said in the instance was wrong, and most of the instance was completely pointless.

  • Alga.6498Alga.6498 Member ✭✭✭
    edited November 15

    Nice catch, I was wondering about this part too about Lyssa and Balthazar.

    When we first saw Lyssa's mirror with Balthazar, most of us, if not all, asumed the gods has gathering up to kill the dragons, atleast Lyssa and Balthazar team-work.
    When Kormir talked about how the gods came up with an agreement, ''even Lyssa'', she might been the one who was offering her help to Balthazar, thinking of agreeing with the other gods and strip down Balthazar's title and power or disagree with the other gods and wanted to help him out.
    I doubt Balthazar just stole the mirror from her, in fact Lyssa gave it to him to make him disguise himself into Lazarus.

    My guess is that Lyssa was indeed offering or atleast trying to help Balthazar to achieve his goals, that's why he didn't curse at Lyssa at his very ending.
    I really, really hope we'll see the Five gods once again soon enough and I hope the 6th god will be Balthazar's ''evil'' half-brother, Menzies, as a replacement and we'll learn alot more about Menzies.

    I looooove :heart: the gods, their lore and everything about them, :love: :blush:

    | GW1 2008~ | GW2 BETA player | Separatist | Nightmare Court | Ebonhawke | Ascalon | White Mantle | 71 characters | Sweden |

  • i like stories involving the gods as well mainly because their action and their mistakes have motives and are also somehow relatable. in fact the problem i have had with the elder dragons as main villain is that we don't have a clue of why they do what they do, why the world works like it does and what is their role in it. and even if mordremoth was the chatting kind of dragon we never really talked or have the possibility to understand anything about them.

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