Anet Needs To Fix Revenant's Core Design Flaw

I'm making this in the PvP forums because we all know Anet doesn't read the Revenant Forums. tl;dr at the bottom.

Renegade has a ton of issues that many people have stated of which, of course, Anet has ignored. However, there exists a core design flaw of Revenant that is beyond just Renegade and that is sustainability.

Each of Revenant's core legends pertains to a specific role: Mallyx is for condition damage, Shiro is for power damage, Ventari is for support, and Jalis is for...what, exactly? It was meant to be the tanky legend that gives Revenant sustainability, but that isn't the case. In reality, Glint provides more sustainability, damage, and support than Jalis could ever provide. From the very beginning Revenant was designed with Glint in mind and so we've only seen builds with Glint in it because core Revenant is lacking, but now with Renegade we have seen without a doubt that Revenant can not survive without Glint. Even with Glint Revenant still struggles after the PoF power creep, from the very beginning the core class of Revenant was broken, and Glint was just a bandaid fix.

Let's take for a moment to look at core Revenant. If you were power you use Shiro, if you were condi you use Mallyx, and if you were support you use Ventari. Your secondary legend would naturally be one that compliments your primary, and for most cases that should be Jalis for sustainability. But Jalis performs poorly in sustainability, why?

HIGH ENERGY COSTS and POOR UTILITY FUNCTIONALITY

On top of which, you need Glint to gain access to shield, which is now the only weapon to provide a block aside from staff after Anet removed offhand sword 4. Core Revenant's only defensive weapon is staff which was intended to be a support weapon, but hardly any Revenant uses it for that function. With Glint being a sustain-type elite spec, its doubtful that Revenant will see another defensive elite spec in the future now that shield has been crossed off the checklist.

This means Jalis must be utilized for its intended purpose, but fails because Glint has the strongest heal in Revenant's arsenal, which is one of Revenant's few ways to mitigate condis in some manner, and has access to:

Permanent furyHigh stacks of mightEasy access to protectionPermanent swiftnessAn easily accessible stunbreakAnd great group support in boonsharingAll while requiring minimal energy costs

Jalis has:

Soothing Stone which is Revenant's highest cast time heal at 1 second, whilst also healing for a mediocre amountVengeful Hammers which even after the disappear bug being fixed, doesn't help mitigate the insane damage and condi damage being thrown around, and preventative measures such as blocks, evades, and invulnerability are far superior than flat -% damage reductions.Forced Engagement which is NOT worth the energy cost being that the chain link is a slow moving projectile that is easily avoided by strafing and is susceptible to AI or pets blocking the attack from hitting its designated target because it does not pierce.Inspiring Reinforcement even after the buff to providing initial stability, you still have to wait until the road finishes to not only deal its damage but to pulse stability to allies and yourself.Rite of the Great Dwarf Jalis' only stunbreak is limited to its elite, a 40 energy costing skill with a 1 1/4 cast time, and you have to trait for it to actually reduce condition damage.

All this without any of the boons given out by Glint.

One of Renegade's issues is its lack of sustainability, even against condi despite having -50% reduction during its heal and Righteous Rebel's -33% reduction. Renegade is not a sustain, defensive sort of elite spec like Glint was, and every elite spec thereafter will suffer from sustain issues just like Renegade. Therefore, Jalis, being the only defensive legend and trait line in core Revenant's arsenal, MUST be brought up in line to provide Revenant it's much needed sustain.

TL;DR

Jalis needs to be buffed to become the sustain legend it should have been. How? Here are my suggestions:

Skills

Soothing Stone Heal yourself and remove conditions, receive barrier per condition removed (720)The retaliation provided is small and meaningless, the new Song of the Mists gave Jalis barrier, which fits with the legend's theme and provides the much needed sustainability.

Vengeful Hammers Increased the healing and damage by 33%, bringing it at 70Vengeful Hammers is the staple to the Jalis legend, and it should hinder foes from approaching Revenant at close range, which compliments hammer in keeping enemies from approaching Revenant recklessly.

Forced Engagement Energy cost reduced to 20. Now pierces, applies slow to targets it hits along the way, and both slow and taunt on the designated target. Increased projectile velocityThe pathing in the link is atrocious, enabling the skill to pierce will make the skill much more worth the energy and cooldown cost without wasting it on an enemy RP walking away from the slow projectile.

Inspiring Reinforcement Now a stunbreak, road now builds fasterIf any skill was to be a stunbreak in Jalis, it's this one. Having the road build faster will now provide more smoother play in getting the benefits out when you actually need to, and not twiddling your thumbs while the road builds.

Rite of the Great Dwarf No longer a stunbreak, provides -50% condition damage reduction base, no longer affects allies. Reduced cast time to 1 secondA 40 energy cost stunbreak on a 1 1/4 cast time? Was Anet even considering that this is a mess? There's also no reason why you need to trait to get -50% condition damage. If the skill was to prevent damage, it should prevent BOTH forms of damage in its base form, both condi and power. I will explain more on the removal of ally affection in its corresponding trait below.

Traits

Close Quarters: Receive -10% Damage to foes within 360 range of you. Gain 150 toughness while wielding a HammerClose Quarters is redundant with the buffs to Planar Protection. Planar Protection should be the trait to mitigate ranged attacks, change Close Quarters to mitigate close range attacks, coupled with providing a trait for benefiting hammer wielding as hammer is the complimentary weapon to Jalis and Retribution, yet lacks and traits that benefit from it while Salvation and Devastation provide traits for Staff and Sword respectively.

Unwavering Avoidance Gain stability after you dodge (2 1/2 seconds)Anet has difficulty sticking to a design philosophy. If this was intended to make the trait more skill based, how in the world did Anet approve Elusive Mind in which Mesmer can stun break and clear a condition on dodge? The change has always been unnecessary and undeserved.

Retaliatory Evasion now merged with Vicious ReprisalWhy would anyone choose Retaliatory Evasion over Eye for an Eye or Dwarven Battle Training? Wasting a master major trait on receiving by far the most underwhelming boon on dodge? The only skill that provides Retaliation is Jalis' heal, Soothing Stone, without taking Retaliatory Evasion Vicious Reprisal is useless. Scrap the concept and merge the traits to provide easier access to the benefits of Vicious Reprisal.

Steadfast Rejuvenation Reduced ICD to 1 secondThere's no reason for the absurd cooldown when many other similar traits exist such as Might Makes Right and Driven Fortitude, and generally you do NOT want to be struck in the first place.

Versed in Stone Rite of the Great Dwarf affects allies as well. When struck below the health threshold, cast the Rite of the Great Dwarf. Gain toughness based on power.Jalis is not a support spec, it provides no support outside of Rite of the Great Dwarf. The reason for Rite of the Great Dwarf's absurd casting time and energy cost is because it effects multiple allies, not just yourself. This trait will now provide a more support option while the other two grandmasters are more selfish oriented, Retaliatory Evasion focusing on damage and Steadfast Rejuvenation focusing on healing.

These are just some of my suggestions in how to improve Jalis. Obviously it wont resolve Renegade's problems, Revenant's energies problems, nor Revenant's weakness to conditions, but for the focus on this post I feel as if Jalis should be addressed first and foremost as this issue of sustain will just be more prevalent as more elite specs come out.

Just gonna bump this old thread instead of posting a new one with 2019 thoughts.

I disagree with the stunbreak changes. ROTGD should stay a stunbreak, yes always have condition damage reduction, but make the energy cost 30 or speed up the cast and when using the Trait Versed In Stone, it should make any stunbreaks grant 1 stack of stability for 3 seconds because as it currently stands. It's worst than Pain Absorption (Which honestly PA deserves to be an evade on the spot of the cast duration which is 1/2 sec compared Riposting Shadows 3/4 sec but I digress having VIS to grant stability on stunbreak would mitigate PA absurd uselessness against CC spam.) and for someone that should be an unstoppable force, the elite skill shouldn't be something to easily be interrupted, especially if traited. As of right now, using any Stunbreak is a risky bet for Revenants unless they are using Shiro, which is lame.

I totally agree with Soothing Stone granting barrier however, it's well deserved as you often find yourself using this heal skill under very heavy pressure as Revenant is quite more clunky to work with.

Forced Engagement is rather good in it's current state, making it cost more might just hurt it's potential to interrupt heals as I would rarely ever expect it to pierce anyway although I welcome the ability to since it can heavily be supportive to do so. The taunt and slow should however last longer if we are to increase the energy cost, 3 seconds instead of 2 would be great, this could also make the skill more uniform among the rest.

Vengeful Hammers suggestions kinda makes me feel like it would be OP, Steadfast Rejuvenation already makes the skill good and with Berserker stats you rack up damage pretty quickly. It would make Impossible odds kind of a joke to make it any stronger.

Retaliatory Evasion is definitely bad and it would need it's boon to last longer, 4 seconds would be more reasonable. Make it so that when traited retaliation reduces physical damage by 10-15%, in contrast to stability which also reduces damage by 15%. They want to make the build revolve around stability and retaliation, so make it a boon that's worth while having since protection is almost non existent in the legend or traitline while those two are commonly obtained.

Spiritual Reckoning deserves to also have a 5 seconds cooldown rather than 10, there's no point in picking it up otherwise. The benefits do not have any weight compared the 2 others.

Jalis in it's current state is okay if you play your cards right with Weakness, but the very core problem just like everything else about Revenant is how it's easy to stunlock them because most stunbreaks, beside Riposting Shadow has an AWFUL delay that is very very easy to punish so that you find yourself evading after casting to avoid anymore punishment, wasting the energy in the process.

ANET really has to do something about it, I've been enjoying Jalis with Mallyx, but these very specific problems really keep Jalis from shining in it's role. Every traits are a straight forward uncontested choice due to how the synergy is overwhelmingly bad. Leaving you with very specific traits to always pick no matter what.

it feels now glint is more defense support and support overall for allies then jalis in every way... very sadi think also doing for all weapons legendspecific attributes would booste playstyle... like the new underwaterweapon

Thank you for your work . I could not explain all the details in my topic. You read my thoughts. Renegade revealed the truth.The icons at the end of the fight to show the truth(top damage, top healing...).I was able to play well only in Power shiro and Ventari herald and get rewards in the form of badges at the end of the battle.This is the merit of Dragon stance. In other legends there was a feeling that I'm just a mannequin.There are exceptions who try to experimen but they are better than us understand the difference.For example to experiment(move away from meta for your convenience) with Guardian or with Revenant. The difference is very big.Revenant hard to move away from meta since the core is unfinished

The entire idea behind the energy consumption is just a failed idea imo. I feel its just a wall the class has to fight over that other classes dont have to deal with. Even with energy there skills go on cooldown.Thf has a similar concept with initiative but doesnt have to deal with cds on there weapon skills.

@Arkantos.7460 said:it feels now glint is more defense support and support overall for allies then jalis in every way... very sadi think also doing for all weapons legendspecific attributes would booste playstyle... like the new underwaterweapon

Depends, if you mean for Infuse Light 3 seconds yeah Glint can make really good use of damage, but it doesn't compare to Jalis or Mallyx abilities to just nullify almost entirely any form of damage. You can basically kill a mirage condition by doing nearly nothing.

@Shao.7236 said:

@Arkantos.7460 said:it feels now glint is more defense support and support overall for allies then jalis in every way... very sadi think also doing for all weapons legendspecific attributes would booste playstyle... like the new underwaterweapon

Smart Mirage can wait until you exit with Mallyx. Not all mirages can be killed through Mallyx. But there is a chance. Ventari / Herald 1 Mirage gets stumped.

@DomHemingway.8436 said:

Smart Mirage can wait until you exit with Mallyx. Not all mirages can be killed through Mallyx. But there is a chance. Ventari / Herald 1 Mirage gets stumpedYou don't have to be Mallyx to tank conditions, dealing with condition mirage is as simple as just waiting out the conditions while hammers sustain you.

Most of the time you're not even using Pain Absorption unless in team fights, Mallyx is mostly just like hammers with it's elite. You do nothing as the mesmer pour conditions on you, then return them all on the next swap or with true nature. Mallyx heal heavily benefits from condi spam while Jalis can cure it if it's too much pressure.

Cool topic

@Eddbopkins.2630 said:The entire idea behind the energy consumption is just a failed idea imo. I feel its just a wall the class has to fight over that other classes dont have to deal with. Even with energy there skills go on cooldown.Thf has a similar concept with initiative but doesnt have to deal with cds on there weapon skills.

This is false. Energy system is good, it just requires more mechanical knowledge to truly get.

Many revenant skills are actually absurdly overpowered, such a jade winds, if you ignore energy costs. It's a massive AoE bomb that stuns for 3 seconds and inflicts vuln on a 5 second cooldown. Yet, it is rarely used because the costs make it so you should really only use it when it is actually needed. TL;DR, Rev is designed to have better skills in exchange for not being able to just spam abilities at random whenever things go wrong.

@Shao.7236 said:@DomHemingway.8436 said:

Smart Mirage can wait until you exit with Mallyx. Not all mirages can be killed through Mallyx. But there is a chance. Ventari / Herald 1 Mirage gets stumpedYou don't have to be Mallyx to tank conditions, dealing with condition mirage is as simple as just waiting out the conditions while hammers sustain you.

From the account of a friend wrote.ou posted a video malyx fights i have tried this build. It seemed to me the best notmeta option is support ventari/glint. You can change the situation before the battle, invocation for retribution.I liked rev as support with the change of legendary stance.If all correctly to do can be team with fb the first battle on the center of the win. I'm talking about my level of play and similar opponents

When I see 2 mirage in the opponent team, I change power shiro to ventari and it helps.

@Maddog.3716 said:From the account of a friend wrote.ou posted a video malyx fights i have tried this build. It seemed to me the best notmeta option is support ventari/glint. You can change the situation before the battle, invocation for retribution.I liked rev as support with the change of legendary stance.If all correctly to do can be team with fb the first battle on the center of the win. I'm talking about my level of play and similar opponents

Most of the time it comes down to strategically transfer when you see fit, resistance is only there to help you achieve that.

Glint makes everything a lot easier because of the heal, but not it's impossible to play without it however. It takes a lot of planning and reading, there is a lot of valid situations where charged mists can be useful that makes core traits extremely powerful assets, the latter is only rather hard but again not impossible to achieve because 10% is a really low bar. 25% would be more reasonable in that regard though, a lot of people fail to realize that this is why most upkeep skills are just 6 pts and that just using say a large energy skill can also speed up the process if you manage right.

@Shao.7236 said:

@Maddog.3716 said:From the account of a friend wrote.ou posted a video malyx fights i have tried this build. It seemed to me the best notmeta option is support ventari/glint. You can change the situation before the battle, invocation for retribution.I liked rev as support with the change of legendary stance.If all correctly to do can be team with fb the first battle on the center of the win. I'm talking about my level of play and similar opponents

The only minus when I'm in ventari is not enough sustain. 1 boon-alacrity is small for ventari. I would like Anet to pay attention to it. To have counterplay between the support. It's interesting for a long fight that create support in the team.

Thanks for the tips I will try different builds.

Want to throw your build on metabattle ventari l don't know how to do it. Ventari / herald is playable to platinum can be reached.

@Maddog.3716 said:The only minus when I'm in ventari is not enough sustain. 1 boon-alacrity is small for ventari. I would like Anet to pay attention to it. To have counterplay between the support. It's interesting for a long fight that create support in the team.

Getting stability out before going Ventari is one thing possible to do, using Retribution to gain stability on evade is another, I would also welcome the same suggested Versed In Stone changes to be extremely useful on legend swap.

Granted as Ventari elite can apply weakness and you can keep going at it with staff 2 as well if you can daze. There's a lot of untouched potential people miss out on for just choosing to keep Glint.

It's not without any denial that Revenant could use an offhand block again with sword to make shield a lot less like a necessity to feel tanky. Staff is good, but other options are pretty nice to have. Axe 4 also could use some evade frames in contrast to make it feel less clunky and more up to part with how it looks and animate as throwing yourself in for damage is pretty nice but there's always a high change to get CC'd right after.

don't like this talent in retribution it tied on a evade Core rev has all these unfinished talents. I take retribution only when opponents have a lot of burst damage and there is a DE. Usually play through invocation break stun an indispensable talent.

I like in ventari / glint that mirage gets stumped. They think about the rev of an easy meal.

While some of the suggestions seem like a powercreep to me (which we should avoid like fire) some changes - namely Barrier is a great way of expanding Jalis' theme.This specialization lacks personality.

So, now I'll talk about my concerns:

• Rite of the Great Dwarf - I really think that Jalis suffers from having stunbreak on Elite skill but! I think that RotGD is a very important skill for Jalis and should be focused around - you should be searching for way to use it and it should provide massive effects as it Rite of the Great Dwarf!

• Forced Engagement - This skill should work like Banish Enchantment or Taunt up to 5 targets on X range, that's all.

• Insipring Reinforcement - This is a hard one because od tweaked, might be overpowered od underperforming. Giving it a stunbreak might make it too strong as it provides A LOT of stuff. Thematically, this would make a perfect sense if this skill was a stunbreak.

• Soothing Stone - Barrier is a way to go for Jalis and I think there is a lot of potential on this skill

• Vengeful Hammers - One of my favorites. And you are right - people should be awarie of this skill while facing Revenant in melee combat

• Traits should actually change how you play the legend, whether you want to be a selfish disabler, a group support-stability machine or just a tank

A now hammer. Although I love this weapon, it has nothing to do with Jalis for me. I don't fell any connection between those two and I think that Guardian's hammer skills fit Jalis a lot better. That's just my opinion. I hate the fact that Jalis is themed around tanking and disabling when hammer is actually a bomb-burst weapon and when you want to make most of this, you have to take Shiro (seriously? Shiro? With hammer?).Jalis just has no use when you're attacking from range using hammer... What do you need Vengeful Hammers for? Inspiring Reinforcement? Taunt? This just doesn't make ANY sense to me. It's arguable, I know - but that's how I feel about Jalis and hammer.

Overall, great suggestions and I think this might help Jalis without any major reworks to the legend.

Here are some of my suggestions about the possible changes to Jalis. They are like a total rework but I think they are interesting to check out ^^.

https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/60081/jalis-retribution-and-hammer#latest

alot of the complaints i see here are balance issues, not design issues

@Kamikazi.5380 said:I'm making this in the PvP forums because we all know Anet doesn't read the Revenant Forums. tl;dr at the bottom.

Welcome to the Revenant Forums...! :bleep_bloop: