Condi Balance is off

Condi is over-tuned, and has been for over two years now.

Let me explain why I'm highly confident about this claim. Karl has reasoned that condi DPS should be higher than power DPS with the rationale that it's DoT, and this idea has also proliferated throughout the community as sort of a "common sense" understanding of power vs. condi. But, the right answer isn't always intuitive, and, in this case, this apparently common sense idea is just wrong.

Unlike DoTs in most MMOs, conditions in GW2 were designed with short durations with the main purpose of piercing armor. Presumably, the original designers understood that conditions need to be balanced in both short and long duration fights, which means that the primary determinant of which is stronger from a DPS perspective should be the target's armor rating, not the duration of the fight.

If Power and Conditions were in proper balance, we would expect power to out-DPS condi up to a certain armor rating no matter how much time passes, with condi only overtaking power above that threshold. I would benchmark that threshold at around 2400 armor, which is a warrior with about 100 extra toughness, or an elementalist with about 400 extra toughness. That isn't totally arbitrary - it's just below what would be considered an "average" armor rating. It's also pretty close to the armor rating of the target golem, where most builds are benchmarked.

So what does this mean? It means that, if power and condition damage builds were in proper balance, we would would expect them to do equivalent DPS against the target golem. Power would win for the first 2-3 seconds, but condi would quickly catch up and they would stay close to even from there. Instead, what we see is that condition damage builds (on average) overtake power a few seconds in and maintain about 20% more DPS afterward. This basically means that condition damage (again, on average) is over-tuned by about 20%.

Of course, the problem with just nerfing the crap out of condi damage at this point is that, in response to the fact that condi has been overpowered for two years, immunity and cleansing mechanics have popped up everywhere, causing a lot of general gameplay problems (restricting build customization, making bunkers too strong, etc.). So, my argument is that we need to see a roughly 20% (average) nerf to condi damage, and a significant scale-back on the presence of specialized mechanics for dealing with incoming condition damage. Only then will we be able to move toward some semblance of balance in this game.

I'm confident that Karl is the reason behind many issues in regards to PvP balance

In the original design power was probably intended as the main source of damage and condition to compliment it. Burning was very short and didn't stack. Poison didn't stack and was a way to reduce healing, poison would probably have been fine without dealing damage too. Confusion didn't deal damage at all if you didn't attack making it more like a punishing form of daze. Bleeding stacked at 25 stacks and there couldn't be more than 1 or 2 condi-damage dealer which was a problem at world bosses. Torment didn't exist and when it was introduced it was advertised as a way to punish moving not as a main damage source.So although they deal damage poison, torment and confusion were a form of soft cc.When silver wastes were introduced we saw high armor targets in form of husks which lead to players using conditions to focus these.Especially in group content this could lead to more interesting designs. I consider vale guardian one of them, but in open world there is a lack of them.Edit:The current way to handle it probably leads in PvP to the situation that anything that can't burst a target to death with direct damage has no reason to spec for direct damage if it has the option to take conditions instead. It would also help to see how much damage the current conditions on you would deal like recoloring your health bar similar to barriers but with another color like dark red.

Both power and condition need a nerf in terms of damage out put. I agree with the op though. I think the main problem is conditions tick way too fast. The rate should be slowed down significantly. When you look at the base health of players: 11k, 15k and 19k and you consider how much you are getting hit for whether it be power or condition. Its way too high. You can tell that the damage is meant for npc encounters, since monsters exceed the health of players.

I remember back when the game launched, getting hit for 5k was considered overpowered. The base health hasn't changed, but damage just keeps going up and up. Which leads to the current problem in pvp.

What! Do you mean it's not normal to get 12 stacks of confusion, 7 torment, 4 burn, 5 vuln, weakness, cleanse them, then get those conditions reapplied again?

edit: all in 1 second?!?!

Agreed, although to be fair, its scourge and mirage that makes condi seem so op, those 2 classes just need to be toned down, a great start would be removing all those cover condis and just keep their main damaging conditions (torment, burning and bleeds for scourge, confusion for mirage)

Please just give me some kind of tell that I can dodge so I can actually try to use proactive defenses instead of just tanking the damage and cleansing (which I can't even do as a rev). Scourge, mirage, even condi thief are all horrible offenders in this regard. Even when I watch a mirage streamer like helseth or misha burst someone, I can see what they did because I can see which of their skills are on cooldown but if I was just watching character animations there would be basically no way to tell how those 20 stacks of confusion and 10 stacks of torment showed up in the blink of an eye.

I actually don't think that condi damage needs to be nerfed, rather access to condition application is what needs to be toned down. One of the reasons that these condi builds are pumping out so much more damage is because they are pumping out loads of damaging conditions, while also dealing power damage with their attacks. And a lot of those attacks don't deal negligible power damage. So either reducing the condi application across the board, or reducing power damage significantly on skills that are clearly supposed to be condi application skills. That would do more than a lot of people think to bring power and condi build DPS in line.

@OriOri.8724 said:I actually don't think that condi damage needs to be nerfed, rather access to condition application is what needs to be toned down. One of the reasons that these condi builds are pumping out so much more damage is because they are pumping out loads of damaging conditions, while also dealing power damage with their attacks. And a lot of those attacks don't deal negligible power damage. So either reducing the condi application across the board, or reducing power damage significantly on skills that are clearly supposed to be condi application skills. That would do more than a lot of people think to bring power and condi build DPS in line.

Interesting suggestion.

@OriOri.8724 said:I actually don't think that condi damage needs to be nerfed, rather access to condition application is what needs to be toned down. One of the reasons that these condi builds are pumping out so much more damage is because they are pumping out loads of damaging conditions, while also dealing power damage with their attacks. And a lot of those attacks don't deal negligible power damage. So either reducing the condi application across the board, or reducing power damage significantly on skills that are clearly supposed to be condi application skills. That would do more than a lot of people think to bring power and condi build DPS in line.

Just... don't kill the power scaling. Or something. That would also hit hybrid builds. I hate when variety is killed as collateral damage for nerfing OP stuff.

I would just like to have one death recap where the top 5 sources of damage aren't like 30-50k burning, torment, confusion, etc. It's essentially the most unfun PvP I've seen in this game to date. Really bummed about it, honestly.

Firebrand and Mirage are frustrating but Scourge is just straight up absurd. Every day for the next 3 months we can all wake up and wonder what the hell they were thinking while we slowly, one-by-one, quit playing Scourge Wars 2 as we wait for a balance patch that will never come and likely break something else when it does.

Death recap is hard to use as a justification because it often has huge numbers for conditions because the damage over time captures damage taken and healed far earlier in a fight.

It’s similar to how a bunker can fight another bunker and get top damage or top healing if neither can kill the other and they spend most of their time just beating on each other. Or a warrior with high adrenal health uptime who doesn’t die.

Individual classes that have balance problems should be adjusted accordingly. I’m always a little amused by the people who think implementing an entirely new system for conditions is easier or more likely than individual class rebalances. I’d advocate for scourge and mirage nerfs (small ones) to address the current issues.

Scourge is less op than it is given credit for. You can cc and burst them down quite easily. While 1v1 the spec can be oppressive it doesn’t fare nearly as well in group settings. Where scourge is a little too strong is how much it can corrupt boons. Boons are everywhere and hardbaked into many class’s designs. Toning this down might be the best way to go.

The same is true of mirage. In 1v1 the spec has too much confusion, too much evade and too much target break. It’s like a stealth and evasion thief combined with massive burst potential. That said, it runs out of those evades more quickly in a group setting. The damage gets spread out and they quickly become a focus target when any enemy can mark a target for their team. I’ve seen guardians 1v3 tank but I’ve never seen a mirage pull off the same. Where it could use a shave is making mirage mirrors last slightly less (6 seconds) and separating the conditional removal and stunbreak on dodge components of Elusive Mind).

@Einlanzer.1627 said:Condi is over-tuned, and has been for over two years now.

Let me explain why I'm highly confident about this claim. Karl has reasoned that condi DPS should be higher than power DPS with the rationale that it's DoT, and this idea has also proliferated throughout the community as sort of a "common sense" understanding of power vs. condi. But, the right answer isn't always intuitive, and, in this case, this apparently common sense idea is just wrong.

Unlike DoTs in most MMOs, conditions in GW2 were designed with short durations with the main purpose of piercing armor. Presumably, the original designers understood that conditions need to be balanced in both short and long duration fights, which means that the primary determinant of which is stronger from a DPS perspective should be the target's armor rating, not the duration of the fight.

If Power and Conditions were in proper balance, we would expect power to out-DPS condi up to a certain armor rating no matter how much time passes, with condi only overtaking power above that threshold. I would benchmark that threshold at around 2400 armor, which is a warrior with about 100 extra toughness, or an elementalist with about 400 extra toughness. That isn't totally arbitrary - it's just below what would be considered an "average" armor rating. It also just happens to be the armor rating of the target golem.

So what does this mean? It means that, if power and condition damage builds were in proper balance, we would would expect them to do equivalent DPS against the target golem. Power would win for the first 2-3 seconds, but condi would quickly catch up and they would stay close to even from there. Instead, what we see is that condition damage builds (on average) overtake power a few seconds in and maintain about 20% more DPS afterward. This basically means that condition damage (again, on average) is over-tuned by about 20%.

Of course, the problem with just nerfing the crap out of condi damage at this point is that, in response to the fact that condi has been overpowered for two years, immunity and cleansing mechanics have popped up everywhere, causing a lot of general gameplay problems (restricting build customization, making bunkers too strong, etc.). So, my argument is that we need to see a roughly 20% (average) nerf to condi damage, and a significant scale-back on the presence of specialized mechanics for dealing with incoming condition damage. Only then will we be able to move toward some semblance of balance in this game.

Except only scourge and sage mesmer are the true condi metas at the moment, everything else is power and support... It's crazy that their is really only 2 classes at the moment that are used as condi and massively effective for their roles over power ... Sage mirage is a unstoppable far point contester and scourge is , well , scourge. I think it just seems like condi is over the top because scourge has such an impact at the moment due to it. It's not so much slow steady condi rotations, it's the condi burst coupled with massive survivability from mesmer and in scourge's case, being carried by firebrands that make it deadly.

@OriOri.8724 said:I actually don't think that condi damage needs to be nerfed, rather access to condition application is what needs to be toned down. One of the reasons that these condi builds are pumping out so much more damage is because they are pumping out loads of damaging conditions, while also dealing power damage with their attacks. And a lot of those attacks don't deal negligible power damage. So either reducing the condi application across the board, or reducing power damage significantly on skills that are clearly supposed to be condi application skills. That would do more than a lot of people think to bring power and condi build DPS in line.

I don't necessarily disagree; when I say "condi needs to be nerfed" I mean it in a nuanced way, which includes reviewing how much how much each condition ticks for and the rate of application from different sources. Clearly, some builds are more overtuned than others. My main point is that they seem to be using a faulty balance paradigm where they expect condition builds to be about 20% stronger once you pass a certain time threshold to compensate for the fact that it's DoT, and I think that needs to be corrected. Condi builds should be roughly equal to power builds vs a target with 2500ish armor.

No when you say "condi needs to be nerfed" what you mean is "scourge and mirage need to be nerfed"

@Crinn.7864 said:No when you say "condi needs to be nerfed" what you mean is "scourge and mirage need to be nerfed"

Yup thats what pisses me off. Condi is fine and the damage it does is fine. Think about if like ranger longbow autoattack crit for 10k every time. Would that be op or would we need to nerf all power damage?

Why are you not using condi rev as an example of how op condi is? Or condi engi? Or condi ele? Condi warrior? Condi ranger?

Scourges and mesmers thats the problem. Fix them.

@Crinn.7864 said:No when you say "condi needs to be nerfed" what you mean is "scourge and mirage need to be nerfed"

No, it's not that simple. I'm talking bout the condi balance paradigm. Right now, condition builds average around 36k dps vs power's 30k dps (which I know isn't a metric that matters to many people in PvP, but it's still relevant). Condi and power should both average around 30k DPS if you assume a low-medium armor rating (most benchmarking is done vs 2400 armor golem). Condi's rampup should generally be in the range of 4-5 seconds.

In PvP, power should dominate when glass builds dominate. What they've done is tried to make condi competitive in PvP in a pretty glass meta, and that's not how it should work. Condi should have the role of wearing down attrition against high armor targets, not bursting down low armor targets.

Condi and Scourge may be more OP than other condi builds, but condi in general performs better than it should because they have the wrong idea in their heads about how to properly balance it.

@Milan.9035 said:

@Crinn.7864 said:No when you say "condi needs to be nerfed" what you mean is "scourge and mirage need to be nerfed"

See above.

If they had same dps why would you take delayed damage that can also be completely cut off.

Your telling them thwy have the wrong idea about how t9 balance condi. I think its just you dont want any condi builds in the game.

@Milan.9035 said:If they had same dps why would you take delayed damage that can also be completely cut off.

Your telling them thwy have the wrong idea about how t9 balance condi. I think its just you dont want any condi builds in the game.

You're so astute. I explain why in my original post, which you must have either not read or not understood.

Because conditions have the advantage of piercing armor, AND of generally having short durations, which means they don't work like DoTs in other MMOs. They need to be balanced around armor rating rather than fight duration. They should not do the same damage on low armor targets that power builds do, even after 30 seconds of fighting.

@Milan.9035 said:If they had same dps why would you take delayed damage that can also be completely cut off.

Your telling them thwy have the wrong idea about how t9 balance condi. I think its just you dont want any condi builds in the game.

The same reason why you take them in any other mmo. They are fire and forget.

@Einlanzer.1627 said:

@Crinn.7864 said:No when you say "condi needs to be nerfed" what you mean is "scourge and mirage need to be nerfed"

Outside of scourge and mirage, that does not hold true. Must power builds (glass or not) can out last and out damage condi builds. The "overall" PvE damage and "burst" condi just does not hold true. And your role in sPvP is not dependent on your damage type, but your class. When I play condi dps guardian, I still do the exact same thing and fulfill the exact same role as power dps (less effective though). Same goes for almost all condi builds. Mobility, utility and sustainability is what determines your role, not damage type.

@Einlanzer.1627 said:No, it's not that simple. I'm talking bout the condi balance paradigm. Right now, condition builds average around 36k dps vs power's 30k dps (which I know isn't a metric that matters to many people in PvP, but it's still relevant). Condi and power should both average around 30k DPS if you assume a low-medium armor rating (most benchmarking is done vs 2400 armor golem). Condi's rampup should generally be in the range of 4-5 seconds.

Your armor values are wrong.

The Average Kitty Golem (the golem used for benchmarking) has 1400 toughness with a combined armor rating of 2623.106. While higher armor values can be reached in sPvP by players, no meta build has anywhere near this much armor, since toughness amulets are rarely used in sPvP.

Meta necro, ele, and mesmer has 1888 armor.Meta ranger, engi, and thief has 2029 armor.Meta guardian and rev has 2167 armor.Meta warrior has between 2167 and 2497 armor depending on health threshold and retaliation uptime.

Why you still trying? Anet dont even play the game,they just have no idea what you talking about. Have you saw anet in pve raid? They designed the raid and can't even kill the boss lol

@Crinn.7864 said:

@Einlanzer.1627 said:No, it's not that simple. I'm talking bout the condi balance paradigm. Right now, condition builds average around 36k dps vs power's 30k dps (which I know isn't a metric that matters to many people in PvP, but it's still relevant). Condi and power should both average around 30k DPS if you assume a low-medium armor rating (most benchmarking is done vs 2400 armor golem). Condi's rampup should generally be in the range of 4-5 seconds.

It doesn't matter, armor doesn't matter much. You can have 3500 armor and you will still get near one shot by attacks.