How to fight Holosmith?

Hey, I'm having trouble figuring out how to go about fighting holosmith as a sword weaver. This is for WvW roaming by the way.I'm generally winning most other match-ups 1v1, the exception being scourges unless they are less skilled. However, I can't seem to deal with a holosmith once they go into holo mode. Just too many knockdowns and too much damage to out heal.Are there certain skills that I'm missing to dodge? Should I try to interrupt a certain section of the combo? Or do you just have to kite them around until holo mode wears off? Something else? I really have no idea, and not enough character slots to figure it out myself.

Thanks in advance! And here's the build I've been using if that helps http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vFAQJAsYncMAF5i94CeOA8RgFWAjIBcACA3b5ucZuYDk/qAA-j1iAQBmS9H2qE8aKDQjSDpqD4tmYAwDAIg7PMVtAd4EAIWlYkCg0lRA-w

Your armor is too low so if you've been fighting a meta rifle build Holosmith so you're gonna need to dodge almost everything in their PF form since power creep is a lot stronger in WvW compared to PvP. Luckily you're using Sword, Energy Sigil and Twist of Fate. You'll have a lot of evades at your disposal.

Photon Forge mode:• If they start off with stealth, start running the opposite direction and get ready to dodge. They're most likely open up with Prime Light Beam or Holographic Shockwave.• Your priority is to evade Prime Light Beam (Elite Skill) and Holographic Shockwave (PF #5).• Some people don't adjust their combos and will use Photon Blitz (PF #4) early on after dropping PF #5. If you're fighting that kind of person, make sure to get out of range as to not waste a dodge if possible. They're most likely to use this skill only once per PF duration as it generates too much heat.• Don't be afraid to use Riptide and Earthen vortex for their evasion frames. You want to avoid getting hit as much as possible, not outheal their damage because you can't.• Same goes for Holo Leap. Get out of range or evade. This has a very low CD so I'd suggest just get out of range as much as possible.• Avoid trading blows as much as possible while they're in PF form. They'll out pressure you with superior damage due to constant high might stacks and range (your 130 vs their 150 auto attacks)

Once they've left PF mode, your opportunity to attack starts.• Be wary of Overcharged shot (Rifle #4) > Jump Shot (Rifle #5) > Blunderbuss (Rifle #3) combo. I avoid wasting Twist of Fate when evading PF skills to make sure I have it if I get hit by Rifle #4.

Honestly, the best thing you can do is to learn that class and its animations. Maybe watch famous streamers like Chaith to get used to what the skills look like since you can't spare a character slot. While a larger portion of the Holosmith population in WvW only use the same skill chain/combos over and over again, you'll eventually meet a competent one that knows how to change their pattern to bait out your dodges.

TL;DRLearn their skill animation. Avoid trading blows while they're in Photon Forge mode, kite them until it wears off. Go offensive when they're in Rifle but watch out for their Rifle combo (#4 > #5 > #3).

IMO fighting Holosmiths are really hard in WvW because of higher stats due to gears, food, and oil. The easier fights are those who doesn't know how to bait dodges and stick to a rotation. It gets a lot harder when it becomes a small scale fight because you can't keep reserving your evades solely for Holosmiths.

Thank you Kyon for the detailed breakdown I can come back to and study when I have time. It is VERY helpful.

Is the standard combo most do in Photon Forge #5 > #4 > either #3 or #2 depending on enemy distance?

It seems like avoidance during Photon Forge seems like the route to go. Whereas beforehand I was mostly trying to hit them after evading their knockdowns in PF. I'll work on it and watch some videos. And, who knows, maybe I'll drop the gold for Engi slot, as holosmith does seem fun. Also, I have another build with 1600 toughness that could work better against them to learn.

Holo really is one of those things that becomes a whole lot easier to deal with if you play one yourself for a bit. The chargeup on PF5 and the elite are very obvious and rifle has a lot of dodge tells.

Most holos who are smart will cast 3 upon entry into PF mode so they can have stab uptime while they try to open of you. There's not much of a standard combo it's more of:1) Try not to use as everything else on the kit is better but it's a decent damage filler2) Spam for damage and mobility (this skill hits the hardest in PF, at least it does in pvp but idk if the numbers are different in wvw)3) Spam for stability and use the second blast to have a higher burst4) Ranged pressure5) CC or blast finisher (weakest skill damage wise in the kit with the most heat generation. When dodging it, don't dodge backwards as you may dodge back into the wave and get cced anyways)

Holosmith is very glassy and dependent on winning trades in PF. So, like Kyon already said, force engagements to happen only outside of PF when you can help it and then kite and heal during their forge attacks. If you're facing a abad player he'll spam skills in PF regardless of if he's hitting you or not and he'll go until he tops out on heat instead of trying to time it. A good player will disable after 6 seconds if they see you only kiting around and then they'll activate again when you engage to try and bait a winning trade. The point of all that was, watch what they do and how they approach the fight. If they try to spam you out then kite them and counter pressure as holo can be an easy kill once they start eating pressure. If they are actively trying to bait you it'll be a longer fight but you can still win if you play smart.

Thanks Ario for explaining the decision making while in PF mode. It answers my earlier question.

@Ario.8964 said:Most holos who are smart will cast 3 upon entry into PF mode so they can have stab uptime while they try to open of you.Would there be time to interrupt them from getting stability using Polaric Leap (air sword teleport/interrupt) or updraft (air dagger knockdown)? Or is it better just to not even mess with it?

My bad, I forgot to mention they usually open up with Corona Burst when entering PF mode for might and stab.

I wouldn't say that it's a "standard" rotation but most newbie Holosmiths do that (#5 > #4) for the burst if they successfully knockdown the enemy. Experienced ones don't usually do that because it can be easily avoided by using a stun break and then evading unless they're pretty sure that their opponent has used up their stunbreaks. One more factor is their current range as some would use #4 while running towards the CCed enemy.

@Bunnytown.7801 said:Thanks Ario for explaining the decision making while in PF mode. It answers my earlier question.

@Ario.8964 said:Most holos who are smart will cast 3 upon entry into PF mode so they can have stab uptime while they try to open of you.Would there be time to interrupt them from getting stability using Polaric Leap (air sword teleport/interrupt) or updraft (air dagger knockdown)? Or is it better just to not even mess with it?

You can try if you're confident enough that you can read your enemy's movements as it's on a 0.5s cast time. And if you fail to interrupt it, you're in prime range of a Holosmith on PF mode with at least 10 might stacks and a decent amount of Vulnerability on you.

It's possible to interrupt if you can predict what they're going to do but it's very difficult. Most of the time I'd recommend just using the time it takes for them to cast to get yourself to a better position to be able to deal with the coming onslaught.

Against holosmith i had no real trouble with weaver. Was running marauder s/f. The key as a glassy ele is allways to kite him just and get not any hit. Its not so hard like it sounds , superspeed on air attunment makes it fairly easy to use. Arcance blast is your best friend to get the needed crit and is somewhat like your panic button to get the speed or its like a gapcloser and great way to chase a target down.

Most holos seems to start a stealth rota with there elite attack. After dodging this i start my burst rotation, normaly plasma/airswap/arcanceblast and so on. 7/10 times the engi is so low on hps that he is going to be defensive and this is the win for me. I whould say its a better matchup for us elementalists. In spvp i killed them also by not losing any duel.

Weavers burst is insane and with good positioning we can kill nearly everything. Druids seems to outsustain us, firebrand is not killable, and mirage is your endboss. Rest can be farmed.

Lol I wouldn't really suggest cheesing it out with Sc/F if he truly wants to learn playing against a class.

I am currently running this set up and I can't realy dent anything like a holo/warrior or dh. I mean yeah sometimes I can get a fire burst of or an air duel attack combo of but nothing else really hurts. When I see my combat log in see things like "you took 5k bulls charge" while I hir them back for 1-2K dual attacks.

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vFAQJAsIncMAdOA+4C8RgFWAjIBcACA3Z5vcZuYDk/qAA-jVyHQBzRJob0C8T1VC3+DD4EAAUVKWiyvvpDAAPAgAAIAHtNDgje0je0je0K0bO0hezhe0je0bWKAVHaB-w

Well don´t know if changing something in the build is an option. I would put in cele earrings too and against holo use earth not water. I eat most power builds using earth, but i understand the lack of condi cleaners without water. I loose to most condi mesmers instead the holos ...What i do is i use durability rune and more offensive not cele in the gear. Statwise its about the same but +20% boon duration and some extra boons which synergizes well using arcane. Scourge is bad annyways ^^.

Just made this. Can swap between stone heart and diamond skin on oponent. If you like more damage use strength of stone.this can be enoyingly tough and i expect not much less damage. Food can be varied of course.

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vFAQJAsYncMAF5i94COOA8RgFRAbIAMASg3v548euYL2ATBA-jFCGQBH4EAIFleA4BAEVlBob/heqHASq/YVlgBAQA2ZdGA7cn7cn7cnddduz6cn15O3ZSB4nyK-w

@Kyon.9735 said:Lol I wouldn't really suggest cheesing it out with Sc/F if he truly wants to learn playing against a class.

Melee a good holosmith out with ele? Have fun and good luck!

You don't. If you try to kite, they gap close. If you go in melee with dagger or sword, you'll get destroyed. We're talking about a class that has more armor, more health, more damage and lower cooldowns. And in the case you actually get a huge burst out, they'll get saved by elixir S. Then heal up or stealth, or just rocket boots away.

You'll do 2-3k damage with random spells, he'll do 6-8k damage with really short cooldown spells or even autoattacks, all while keeping 25 might and fury among others.

"Bait photon or kite it" except they can cancel it at will, and reactivate with ZERO COOLDOWN later on. There should be a small cooldown, like shroud has, but no. Like another poster said, you need to dodge every single ability in forge if you don't want to lose upwards of 7-10k health in 1 second. All of them are dodge worthy: Leap, corona, blitz and shockwave. The best part is the stability trait, you can't even cc them.

Just walk away from them, oh they got rocket boots so they're more mobile than you!

It's a classic example of overblown power creep. By the next expansion holosmith won't be nearly as potent as it currently is. Gotta sale those copies.

@Kyon.9735 said:Lol I wouldn't really suggest cheesing it out with Sc/F if he truly wants to learn playing against a class.

Melee a good holosmith out > @Razor.6392 said:

You don't. If you try to kite, they gap close. If you go in melee with dagger or sword, you'll get destroyed. We're talking about a class that has more armor, more health, more damage and lower cooldowns. And in the case you actually get a huge burst out, they'll get saved by elixir S. Then heal up or stealth, or just rocket boots away.

You'll do 2-3k damage with random spells, he'll do 6-8k damage with really short cooldown spells or even autoattacks, all while keeping 25 might and fury among others.

"Bait photon or kite it" except they can cancel it at will, and reactivate with ZERO COOLDOWN later on. There should be a small cooldown, like shroud has, but no. Like another poster said, you need to dodge every single ability in forge if you don't want to lose upwards of 7-10k health in 1 second. All of them are dodge worthy: Leap, corona, blitz and shockwave. The best part is the stability trait, you can't even cc them.

Just walk away from them, oh they got rocket boots so they're more mobile than you!

It's a classic example of overblown power creep. By the next expansion holosmith won't be nearly as potent as it currently is. Gotta sale those copies.

This is not true. If you play fresh air weaver, the only way for the engi is to close the gap, but if u set your burst right and move constant out of range, he cant do anything. You outburst him, while he cant even hit you hard enough. If u facetank his holo, you will die, for sure. But u can blink out, you have arcane shield, obsi flesh and superspeed. You can outplay him easy. I run marodeur with bloodlustsignet and 5% more damage if range is over 600 and it is most of the time like this. A easy fight for me or an ele on s/f overall.

The problem is lots of eles try to outsustain and facetanking. But you cant. And the trade for sustaine will cost you burst. i run with 2,7k power and this is enough to kill everything. These holosmiths might be look overtuned, but they are not.

@Xibalbar.7459 said:

@Kyon.9735 said:Lol I wouldn't really suggest cheesing it out with Sc/F if he truly wants to learn playing against a class.

You don't. If you try to kite, they gap close. If you go in melee with dagger or sword, you'll get destroyed. We're talking about a class that has more armor, more health, more damage and lower cooldowns. And in the case you actually get a huge burst out, they'll get saved by elixir S. Then heal up or stealth, or just rocket boots away.

You'll do 2-3k damage with random spells, he'll do 6-8k damage with really short cooldown spells or even autoattacks, all while keeping 25 might and fury among others.

"Bait photon or kite it" except they can cancel it at will, and reactivate with ZERO COOLDOWN later on. There should be a small cooldown, like shroud has, but no. Like another poster said, you need to dodge

every single ability in forge

if you don't want to lose upwards of 7-10k health in 1 second. All of them are dodge worthy: Leap, corona, blitz and shockwave. The best part is the stability trait, you can't even cc them.

Just walk away from them, oh they got rocket boots so they're more mobile than you!

It's a classic example of overblown power creep. By the next expansion holosmith won't be nearly as potent as it currently is. Gotta sale those copies.

If you actually read OP's post, he was asking how to fight Holosmiths on a Sword Weaver build. And of course it will be easy to kill Holosmiths on a cheesy scepter weaver build especially in WvW where you get higher stats due to gears, food, and oil. Meta Holos will frown fighting against Sc/F weavers just like how Sword Weavers frown fighting against them assuming both sides are of equal skill level. I won't even dare call it "outplaying".

Please, let's stop glorifying Scepter FA Weaver "one shot" builds. Anyone competent enough can easily press a couple of buttons to down someone. It's true that it would take skill to survive after you use your burst or if you get focused in a team fight but fact is, most of the time you can easily down them even before they get to you. At worst only Thief, Mesmer, and Burn Guard (LB ranger if you mess up your reflects) are bad matchups for this build if you play your cards right. The only difference this build has compared to a one shot Mesmer build is that they have way better defenses (mobility + stealth + lots of evasion) and their burst is on a generally lower CD.

Let's face it, fights get easier for the side that can force their opponent to play defensively first and it's not that hard on Sc/F.

@Kyon.9735 said:

@Xibalbar.7459 said:

@Kyon.9735 said:Lol I wouldn't really suggest cheesing it out with Sc/F if he truly wants to learn playing against a class.

You don't. If you try to kite, they gap close. If you go in melee with dagger or sword, you'll get destroyed. We're talking about a class that has more armor, more health, more damage and lower cooldowns. And in the case you actually get a huge burst out, they'll get saved by elixir S. Then heal up or stealth, or just rocket boots away.

You'll do 2-3k damage with random spells, he'll do 6-8k damage with really short cooldown spells or even autoattacks, all while keeping 25 might and fury among others.

"Bait photon or kite it" except they can cancel it at will, and reactivate with ZERO COOLDOWN later on. There should be a small cooldown, like shroud has, but no. Like another poster said, you need to dodge

every single ability in forge

if you don't want to lose upwards of 7-10k health in 1 second. All of them are dodge worthy: Leap, corona, blitz and shockwave. The best part is the stability trait, you can't even cc them.

Just walk away from them, oh they got rocket boots so they're more mobile than you!

It's a classic example of overblown power creep. By the next expansion holosmith won't be nearly as potent as it currently is. Gotta sale those copies.

It is a viable option! And with right rotations and positioning you can outburst a mesmer also, the stealths durations is atleast 3 seconds. You can count it to the moment you need to dodge. The rest is typicall talk. Farror did it also to legendary rank with fresh air. Just dont put the build into the doom because its a issue how to playing it right. The burst is insane and the nearly perma superspeed makes it great. And range is the only viable option for ele to counter scrouges so far. Staff wont work, the only option is scepter.

Against holo and sword you are right.

Kite when he turns into holo mode, you aren't going to outdps him in that mode, when he turns back, deal your damage.

Thats totally true. And it´s not holo alone. Moving means life or death for ele. While protection is your best friend, you will loose facetanking a class that has hig damage and a good number of CC (like warrior too). Its go in and out and run in circles ....

@killahmayne.9518 said:Kite when he turns into holo mode, you aren't going to outdps him in that mode, when he turns back, deal your damage.

You are doing it. The holo himself can be kited fairly easy while you only needs to nuke him into elxis s proc. Its a myth and player issue, not more.

Hey all, just wanted to update that I took your advice into practice while roaming with sword. I still wasn't able to kill good holos, but I'm definitely surviving fights against them now. I impressed one decent holo who whispered, "Wow, never seen a weaver not just fall down and die against holo before." So that's a compliment I guess, haha. He invited me to duel. So I did and was able to get some focused experience fighting a holo, which really helped!

Overall, the duels made me realize just how much of an uphill battle fighting a good holosmith is. They just need to time your dodges and it's pretty much GG from there, as you'll spend more of your time when they are out of photon forge trying to heal vs. damage, or running away.

@Bunnytown.7801 said:Hey all, just wanted to update that I took your advice into practice while roaming with sword. I still wasn't able to kill good holos, but I'm definitely surviving fights against them now. I impressed one decent holo who whispered, "Wow, never seen a weaver not just fall down and die against holo before." So that's a compliment I guess, haha. He invited me to duel. So I did and was able to get some focused experience fighting a holo, which really helped!

Overall, the duels made me realize just how much of an uphill battle fighting a good holosmith is. They just need to time your dodges and it's pretty much GG from there, as you'll spend more of your time when they are out of photon forge trying to heal vs. damage, or running away.

Good to hear you're doing better now. Honestly speaking, the tips I gave was not how to actually kill a Holo but how to survive and at least return the pressure (I bet you already realized this). In a fight with equal skills, you're most probably going to end on a stalemate because these 2 specs (Sword Weaver) actually share the same weaknesses. They can just easily disengage if they want to so the best thing to do is make them realize it's a stalemate.

A bulk of hybrid sword weaver's damage mainly comes from Primadorial Stance. Any decent player will watch your status bar (or check if you have pulsing effects) and kite you when you have Primadorial Stance active. Sounds familiar, right?

@Kyon.9735 said:A bulk of hybrid sword weaver's damage mainly comes from Primadorial Stance. Any decent player will watch your status bar (or check if you have pulsing effects) and kite you when you have Primadorial Stance active. Sounds familiar, right?

Yeah, I hear you.

I suppose, it's just in the nature of the holo, like you said. A game of mutual avoidance when either one seeks to do damage. Unlike say, a spellbreaker, who will be in your face all the time and make themselves vulnerable for a disable then burst.

At equal skill level I must say it is really hard to fight holo with stab, chain cc, might stacks... I have not enough burst nor condies to be a real threat, I'm still trying to figure out how to deal with them when they jump on me. It's not like they don't have mobility nor sustain either :/

It's when I fight holo that I feel sword weaver is really lacking. Annoying bunker druids and firebrands aside. It's easier fighting scourge at this point.

There's really no reliable way to kill a Holosmith as a Sword Weaver right now. Even the tips I shared about how to survive (not kill) can already be considered outdated as Explosives (Minesweeper GM trait) Holo build has gone full blown meta. Some people would be surprised how much total damage those mines do in a single fight.

Any sword weaver build cannot even handle the new semi-support FB build in sPvP that was created by Arken which is quickly gaining popularity (Harrier Amulet with Radiance/Virtues/Firebrand). It seems that side node role will be exclusively Druid/SB/Mirage in ranked games if that build becomes a meta variant.