Should Scourge get a F1 shroud?

Seems to me that Core Necro and Reaper's powerful Shroud skills are kept in check by them having the shroud mechanic on a cooldown, you can't use them all the time.But Scourge doesn't have this and i'm starting to wonder if that's such a good thing after all.At the moment, despite all the nerfs so far, Scourge is rampant in WvW and PvP and will probably face even more nerfs which will also affect PvE.I don't want Scourge's F abilities to become so weak that they're flavorless so perhaps adding them behind a shroud mechanic but keeping them quite powerful could be an idea?This would also synergize with 'upon entering shroud' traits better.I get the idea behind the F skills being available all the time and consuming life force but i don't know how they will balance them in WvW/PvP where you gain a lot of life force all the time.It's kind of like a thief having access to their stealth attacks all the time instead of being gated behind stealth - ie the stealth skills would be nerfed.

So here's an idea for how Scourges shroud could work (and before you flame i'm not trying to call for nerfs but trying to figure out how to make them work as they are now without having to get future nerfs: this is just an idea there are probably much better ones)

Shroud on F1 like usual core/reaper but Djinn Shroud - take the shape of a desert Djinn (perhaps like the ones in game at the moment but pulsing black to keep theme with other shrouds)https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/File:Veteran_Fire_Djinn.jpg

Shroud skill 1 - short range AOE attack perhaps 180/240 radius that pulses a burn (can be traited with Dhuumfire for an extra burn stack) reaper has a cleave and core has a single target range attack so thats why i went with Aoe.

Shroud Skill 2 - Sand shade as it is now

Shroud Skill 3 - Garish Pillar (lets keep all the fears on F3 like reaper/core)

Shroud skill 4 - Sand Cascade - same as now but instead of an instant barrier it pulses up, this way it could be traited with Transfusion which would pulse healing thus giving the support option to pulse heal while covering allies with the barrier.

Shroud Skill 5 - Obviously Desert Shroud would have to go so replace it with something like 'Back to the Earth' - Destroys your current shades applying conditions in the area, reducing the recharge of your next shade for each shade destroyed. Or Destroys your current shades converting X boons into conditions, allies near the shade gain the boons.

Personally i would also alter the trait Sand Savant, i think it's contrary to what Scourge is supposed to be and replace it with something more in tune with barriers, since its on the barrier line. Something like 'when your barrier is depleted gain protection and stability'I don't like to see any class nerfed in a certain game mode because they're strong in another game mode so perhaps something like this could have worked. Keep shade skills strong but gate them behind a shroud.

Regards

I think that the concept of the scourge's base mechanics are fine, they really just needed to have play testers on such a new/radical change for the necromancer.

Shroud traits' interaction with sand shades is probably something they needed to spend more time with.

I personally think its fine. Scourge has SO many counters. This change i assume you are wanting done as a nerf? Because that is what it would be. While its not perfect and could do with tweaks. I do like it the way it is. It does need to have a defense against Ranged users. Because well. If you're jumped by someone at range. You die. Scourge is easy to kite and quite easy to kill if you have mobility, condition removal.

@Fade.5904 said:I don't want Scourge's F abilities to become so weak that they're flavorless so perhaps adding them behind a shroud mechanic but keeping them quite powerful could be an idea?

I don't like to see any class nerfed in a certain game mode because they're strong in another game mode so perhaps something like this could have worked. Keep shade skills strong but gate them behind a shroud.and before you flame i'm not trying to call for nerfs but trying to figure out how to make them work as they are now without having to get future nerfs

No I dont want it nerfing which was the idea in the first place, Scourge will get nerfs it's just a matter of which way they go

Scourge should have always had a shroud.

Shroudless necro is stupid, it goes against the entire setup of the base class.

@Fade.5904 said:No I dont want it nerfing which was the idea in the first place, Scourge will get nerfs it's just a matter of which way they go

But your idea WOULD be a nerf. Look how Reaper is doing. Great damage but cant stay in Shourd for more than 2 seconds if focused. Locking skills behind TWO cool downs isnt the best way to go about it. Scourge mechanics arent why scourge is strong. Base Necro, all the conditions, Boon corrupts and everything is what makes Scourge strong. Putting Scourge behind a shroud would just kill the spec off.

Your idea means that Scourge would lose Boon Corrupts and condi conversion from Nefarious Favor for example and Sand Cascade and Desert Shroud are basically the specs defense, they are good (slightly) because you dont need to go into a shroud to get access to them.

@ArmageddonAsh.6430 said:

@Fade.5904 said:No I dont want it nerfing which was the idea in the first place, Scourge will get nerfs it's just a matter of which way they go

It wouldn't loose boon corrupts they would be gated behind a shroud 10s cooldown need life force like reaper and core necro.Your defense would be the shroud itself an extra HP poolYes reaper shroud doesn't last long if your using glass stats as it scales on your vitality, with condi stats you can build much tankier.Would you rather something like this or having Nefarious Favors boon corruption cut in half because the only way down from 2 boons is 1 boon that's a 50% nerf - for example.

@Fade.5904 said:It wouldn't loose boon corrupts they would be gated behind a shroud 10s cooldown need life force like reaper and core necro.Your defense would be the shroud itself an extra HP poolYes reaper shroud doesn't last long if your using glass stats as it scales on your vitality, with condi stats you can build much tankier.Would you rather something like this or having Nefarious Favors boon corruption cut in half because the only way down from 2 boons is 1 boon that's a 50% nerf - for example.

Unless you have missed where Nefarious Favor would go (i cant seem to see it in your list of new skills) Then you would at the very least lose the Condition conversion, the boon corruption would just be moved to another skill i would asusme as thats a trait.

Shroud is NOT a defense. Its NOT a defense on Necro. Its NOT a defense on Reaper and it would NOT be a defense on Scourge. THIS idea that Shroud is defense is why the class has serious issues with defense, Anet and people like you think Extra Health that passively drains, drains when you attack and drains when you are attacked is better than actually having DEFENSE

It doesnt matter how much damage a Shroud can do when Reaper and Scourge would be SO easily countered by ranged burst. I havent lost a single fight to a Scourge on my SoulBeast. The burst damage melts them, this wouldnt be changed if they had this fake extra health that when gone would stop hem from being able to use important skills.

Honnestly, part of the issue is more that desert shroud isn't a channeled skill that would be interruptable. And the other part of the issue is that there is no tell to the shroud skills.

Irenio said that the art team was working on tells (they work faster on black lion skins than for balance, yeah) and they obviously didn't make it for the last patch, so that's something that might very well come in the futur. As for desert shroud not being interruptible, that's probably something they intended but didn't take into account how hard it would impact the game, especially in PvP/WvW.

Ultimately shrouds are not "good" mechanisms, they pile up to much things onto a single skill and it end up being difficult to balance and tend to only make the "tanky" part of it valuable. The concept of the scourge is not bad in itself, it's just that it wasn't thoroughly thought or tested. There is a need of tons of polishing in order to allows some logical counter play to these F skills.

Would you rather something like this or having Nefarious Favors boon corruption cut in half because the only way down from 2 boons is 1 boon that's a 50% nerf - for example.

I'm afraid, that heavy boon corruption is intended by Anet. This is their direct answer to the boon meta. It make the necromancer anticlimatic and hated by everyone but that's the role that anet want the necromancer to play. It would probably be way better for everyone if it was boon ripping instead of boon corruption but for the sake of "flavor" anet chose boon corruption.

Anet would rather have a broken boon corrupting necro than cutting all boons duration from all profession to half. The boon meta have been rampant for year and I have seen plenty of thread that wanted anet to bury it. Scourge bury this boon meta... You can't complain that anet listened to the community. (Ironically, the same happened to reaper, anet listened to the community even if the result wasn't quite to their liking)

@ArmageddonAsh.6430 said:

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So extra health is not a defense, ok lets remove vitality altogether because its 'fake health'You haven't lost a single fight to a scourge on your soulbeast which is probably why you see 5 man scourge teams in pvp matches, perhaps they should all switch to Soulbeast cause they're doing it wrong.And we've all heard those shouts from commanders in WvW 'Need more Soulbeasts!!'

You're pointlessly trying to turn an idea into an argument, which wasn't the reason i posted.Good luck im out

@Fade.5904 said:

@ArmageddonAsh.6430 said:

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Would you rather have a little more "health" that drains when you attack, drains passively, drains when attacked OR would you like an ACTUAL defense, such as blocks, invuls, mobility and such.

Crazy i know. Such a hard choice.

@opener,why everyone agree that scourge is sooo OP in wvw? its just 1 dmg dealer next to eles and revs. and without support from firebrand, ele and rev the scourge is nothing.

in a ranking with all classes scourge would have the last place in sustain, mobility and support. the only thing scourge have is dmg. and we know from pve benchmarks that scourge dont have top dps. so what is OP on this class????

just a lot of skilless flamers are calling scourge OP. the nerfes scourge already get took away many dmg from this class in wvw too.

also scourge f1 skills HAVE a very strong limit, and its called LIFEFORCE. if you faceroll f skills in a duel you dont have any lifeforce left after 10 sec. and without lifeforce necro is dead. so you have need many skills for lf regeneration.

maybe pve only think in dmg or no dmg. but like i wrote above, for WVW there are many other important skilltypes you need (sustain, mobility and support) and scourge is last place in all of them.

@ArmageddonAsh.6430 said:

@Fade.5904 said:No I dont want it nerfing which was the idea in the first place, Scourge will get nerfs it's just a matter of which way they go

No, scourge gets very very little from core necro. The only relevant traits for scourge is Dhuumfire, Strength of Undeath, and Path of Corruption. You could unslot every other trait, and you wouldn't be able to tell much of a difference.

@ArmageddonAsh.6430 said:

@Fade.5904 said:

@ArmageddonAsh.6430 said:

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I would rather the health so those places I would put skills/utilities/whatever that would have blocks, invuls, mobility, and such... I would add more offensive skills.There was a reason I was really happy they removed that one shield part of Revenant's 4's skill on sword.

It would already help if the f-skills got a cast time and a more visible animation, so you can dodge them or interrupt. The only one I can really see is the fear one.Also scourge profits more from vitality than base necro or reaper because the life force cost is absolute and not a percentage. Core/reaper can't stay longer in shroud with more vitality because the loss is a percentage.

@ArmageddonAsh.6430 said:

@Fade.5904 said:

@ArmageddonAsh.6430 said:

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I can think of several mechanics that would make shroud a effective defensive mechanic that do not involve blocks or invulns.

The problem with shroud is the abilities on it, not the concept of shroud itself.

You mean the final skill? It's a shroud, barrier instead of extra life pool. It's the trade off for necros finally doing real damage. I actually like the change, disliked how shroud could completely strip the necro of their skills and weapons. I don't want to go back to nerfed necro.

@Ayumi Spender.1082 said:No, scourge gets very very little from core necro. The only relevant traits for scourge is Dhuumfire, Strength of Undeath, and Path of Corruption. You could unslot every other trait, and you wouldn't be able to tell much of a difference.

That wouldn't change making Scourge be Shroud based would firstly be REALLY boring. Secondly. Having an actual DEFENSE would be so much better than just more health.

@Crinn.7864 said:I can think of several mechanics that would make shroud a effective defensive mechanic that do not involve blocks or invulns.

The problem with shroud is the abilities on it, not the concept of shroud itself.

Ah, that is where we differ. You are basing your view that more health being better due to PvE. My view is from PvP and WvW where balance is actually important, but ignored 99% of the time. More health means NOTHING when it comes to these modes. Defensive skills are ALWAYS more important due to the sheer damage that can be taken.

The problem with Shroud is it its a TERRIBLE defense. It tries too be everything. Damage, Mobility, "defense" as well as "sustain" It needs to be focused. It needs one or 2 roles and not be forced to try and be everything.

@Crinn.7864 said:

@ArmageddonAsh.6430 said:

@Fade.5904 said:

@ArmageddonAsh.6430 said:

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Taking no damage is the best defense, which you can achieve in two ways: either with dealing high damage to kill your opponent before he can kill you or using abilities to negate damage like blocks, evades and invulnerability.

Shroud and necro+reaper, particularely lacks both.

So could you elaborate how you would change shroud to be an effective defense-tool ?

@Fade.5904 said:Seems to me that Core Necro and Reaper's powerful Shroud skills are kept in check by them having the shroud mechanic on a cooldown, you can't use them all the time.

They're not kept in check by this, they have to be toned down in damage due to this to balance the free durability. Scourge can't do great condi damage and have shroud, just like reaper shroud has to diminish faster to give more power to his kit. If you want the DPS, you have to break away from shroud in exchange.

At the moment, despite all the nerfs so far, Scourge is rampant in WvW and PvP and will probably face even more nerfs which will also affect PvE.

Scourge got bugs fixed, and then got Reaper/Scourge buffs. He hasn't had to be nerfed some crazy amount yet. It just seemed that way due to the reaction to the initial bugs.

This would also synergize with 'upon entering shroud' traits better.

They just did this, where entering/exiting shroud is traited more now than just the entirety of shroud duration. And it was the traits that got adjusted for this, not the skill kit.

I get the idea behind the F skills being available all the time and consuming life force but i don't know how they will balance them in WvW/PvP where you gain a lot of life force all the time.

If they're up "all the time" it's no more than other professions. Desert shroud is on cooldown for 14 seconds base, soulbeast is 10 and warrior is 8 and those are the only 2 I even pulled up and I was guessing and haven't even played them....

So here's an idea for how Scourges shroud could work (and before you flame i'm not trying to call for nerfs but trying to figure out how to make them work as they are now without having to get future nerfs: this is just an idea there are probably much better ones)

No flame man lol, ur good. It's what this forum is for and I like ideas instead of complaints, so kudos. However, you're changes sound like turning it closer to the upfront AOE archetype that reaper already is, and you also want to put him back in shroud move fear back to where it was and make skills match old traits.... I mean, reaper is fun and I didn't even switch at first because I was having fun, and if I want to play that style I can still, but I don't want to limit the style that got opened up with scourge. I can be corrected instead of needing an overhaul. Actually right now it barely needs much. I'm telling you just give it a minute and don't believe reddit and most any posts. moderators aren't a thing, people say what they want and how they want with no reason or rationale. Scourge DPS is right there with what everyone was fine with on all other specs in the last balance. If it needs to have that power shifted around to limit the ways in which he's utilizing it, that can be done with ranges and cooldowns and traits without changing one thing about him as far as function (although that can be done as well, but it's not the default answer)

Personally i would also alter the trait Sand Savant, i think it's contrary to what Scourge is supposed to be and replace it with something more in tune with barriers, since its on the barrier line. Something like 'when your barrier is depleted gain protection and stability'

Go back and look at the top row of the scourge traits. Sand Savant is awesome. You press F1 and pick a spot. That little death ball is huge now, it instantly grants all the full stacks for blood is sand and sand soul for concentration, expertise and 15% damage reduction and if you went top line you gave all allies within a barrier, cleansed a condition, granted might, and if for some reason someone is still inside it, you're prepped and ready to crush that area and scourge #2 is only halfway there and vulnerable while he's in that animation chain if he even tries to catch up. Oh and I forgot 33% recharge reduction is awesome too.

I know I'm heavily disagreeing here, but I just believe that scourge got what it needed, and that has nothing to do with tuning, because I was saying all the same things before this last patch, because things balance out over time, but the one thing I definitely don't want is to give back my build diversity, unique playstyles and thematic specializations. If we're going to do that, we might as well, turn a bunch of NPCs into Rreapers, put it in the lore, can the other two and just try to bring another class back from GW1 and give that a go, because people would basically be saying they don't want a full and complete profession like the others, so why have it?

@Arzurag.7506 said:

@Crinn.7864 said:

@ArmageddonAsh.6430 said:

@Fade.5904 said:

@ArmageddonAsh.6430 said:

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Sadly, there is one thing that people like to ignore and that's that invuln, dodge, block are superior for a very simple reason: these mechanisms ignore hard CC. Nobody in the game volontarily reduce their damage by taking vitality gear to have more health, especially not an elementalist. If health point was this good they would do it. However, no matter how mmuch health point you got, if you got nothing to deal with hard CC, you are as good as dead and the necromancer is one of the worst at dealing with hard CC (not the worst, because revenant exist).

Actually, at this point I almost would like to see Anet remove the shroud mechanic all together. I'm so tired of getting nerfed or not getting buffed because of our "second health bar". I'm not looking for top dps, but tired of hearing you can't have this or that because you have sustain. What good is sustain without bringing serious dps or support, true group support.

@Dadnir.5038 said:Sadly, there is one thing that people like to ignore and that's that invuln, dodge, block are superior for a very simple reason: these mechanisms ignore hard CC. Nobody in the game volontarily reduce their damage by taking vitality gear to have more health, especially not an elementalist. If health point was this good they would do it. However, no matter how mmuch health point you got, if you got nothing to deal with hard CC, you are as good as dead and the necromancer is one of the worst at dealing with hard CC (not the worst, because revenant exist).

On revenents plus side, better healing, Evades, Teleports, Blocks, stability. I would say that Necro IS the weakest class when it comes against CC spamming.

Yeah for some odd reason people saying the Shroud health is the defense, fail to understand that, that "defense" passively degens, degens when attackin and degens when getting attacked. Anyone saying they would take the Shroud over ACTUAL defensive skills such as blocks, evades and invuls are simply put. Crazy.

Taking NO/reduced damage will ALWAYS be stronger than having more health and a extra "health" bar.

@Arzurag.7506 said:

@Crinn.7864 said:

@ArmageddonAsh.6430 said:

@Fade.5904 said:

@ArmageddonAsh.6430 said:

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random ideas:

A utility skill that converts incoming damage into life force.A shroud skill that deals damage to your target equal to the life force lost while the skill is active.

@Crystal Black.8190 said:It would already help if the f-skills got a cast time and a more visible animation, so you can dodge them or interrupt. The only one I can really see is the fear one.Also scourge profits more from vitality than base necro or reaper because the life force cost is absolute and not a percentage. Core/reaper can't stay longer in shroud with more vitality because the loss is a percentage.

You can add cast times to shade skills when you remove the cast times off summoning shades and bump their damage. Adding a cast time to the fear shade would be retarded for interrupt purposes.

Seriously, necro is already one of the classes with the longest cast times. Long cast times on heal, all scepter skills have not only long cast times but slow collision so good luck landing a dagger 5 or scepter 2 on a moving target.

And to top it off, the spec does absolutely garbage DPS.