A couple changes to make Grieving Holosmith better

With the addition of Grieving with Holosmith, it's a bit disappointing that it doesn't work out as well as a zerker build. Holosmith also presents the Engineer's only chance to properly fit out a Burn focused build which fits thematically and ties in with PoF's Grieving affix. This aims to achieve that with the following changes:

Trait Changes:Solar Focusing Lens- Now also applies to 2 attacks after leaving Photon Forge.Crystal Configuration: Storm- Now also applies 1s Burning to attack chain.

Skill changes:Refraction Cutter- Applies 1s Burning per projectile instead of 3s Bleeding

Solar Focusing Lens giving a total of 8 seconds of Burning every 6 seconds might sound a little overpowered for an adept trait, but in practice PF can't be turned on and off that often. The damage bonus remains balanced between Sword and Rifle in zerker builds with this minor change, Rifle only slightly edging out Sword with Jump Shot vs. Radiant Arc->Refraction cutter.

Crystal Configuration: Storm now has another purpose instead of existing solely to give Photon Forge a spammable ranged attack for melee-unfriendly fights. 1 second of burning per hit in return for 10% of the power damage and heat generation seems like a fair trade for damage purposes, making it edge out Flamethrower auto in burn application.

Refraction Cutter applying Burn instead of Bleed helps promote Sword/Pistol setups.

Won't happen unless modified ammo and burning grandmaster don't compete in the same tier, you need both things basically.

Making changes to improve our ability to use Grieving stats can result in severely improving pure condi engi. Then they'd probably nerf it to compensate. This is likely given Anet's track record with balance updates.

I am perfectly fine with discrete Zerker and Condi builds, it makes it easier on Anet to balance it.

Well, the entire idea behind Grieving is that it's the best way to supplement condition damage from a single source while filling the rest with power based attacks. If Incendiary Powder can't compete with Modified Ammunition, then the solution is to just add more burns since damage increases don't affect conditions.

Also, we aren't on a gear treadmill. If you add enough burns that IP can beat out MA on a stationary target, it'll stay that way.

@Atmaweapon.7345 said:Well, the entire idea behind Grieving is that it's the best way to supplement condition damage from a single source while filling the rest with power based attacks. If Incendiary Powder can't compete with Modified Ammunition, then the solution is to just add more burns since damage increases don't affect conditions.

Also, we aren't on a gear treadmill. If you add enough burns that IP can beat out MA on a stationary target, it'll stay that way.

for realistic benchmarks you'd have to outdo the 20% power damage bonus (10 condis), keep 100% crit and max burn duration for it to work basically. Not sure if you have seen Nike's video on grieving but it's worth to give it a look, though I'd test myself the stat thresholds he talks about.

Engi gets 20% crit from Firearms (High Caliber would beat out Chemical Rounds since the goal is only OH Pistol.) With a full set of Grieving + Burn chili and Raid buffs, it would be about 6% below the crit cap at which point you'd need to math out the optimal point at which the 9% extra stats from Grieving beats out Sinister/Rampager gear.

@Atmaweapon.7345 said:Trait Changes:Solar Focusing Lens- Now also applies to 2 attacks after leaving Photon Forge.Crystal Configuration: Storm- Now also applies 1s Burning to attack chain.

Skill changes:Refraction Cutter- Applies 1s Burning per projectile instead of 3s Bleeding

Still waiting for that SFL change to happen.

Right now it adds like 4s burning per 6s at best and even that is unrealistic, since engi cannot loose heat fast enough to toggle it that often.

You are better off using PBM for it and effectively get 7 stacks of the buff in the time you could get max 6 stacks with SFL, even IF they would finally update it.

The added burning on Crystal Configuration: Storm would help to make condi and power holo more even in terms of dps.

I have no clue how much the sword changes would do tho.

And in general i have to agree with posts from above, grieving holo just won't work.

With minor tweaks, such as the SFL fix (stacks applied when leaving PF) and added burning to the forge AA, condi holo could become a viable alternative to power holo.

Make it happen :)

Edit: and i really dont get why they nerfed the burning from Vent Exhaust, since it really only applied to condi holo...they effectively just weakened the already underperforming condi build.

Grieving can work on Holo if it gets more burns. If the baseline damage output of Power vs. Burn ratio is 60 : 40 tilted in favor of Power, then Incendiary Powder becomes similar in value to Modified ammunition(a 13.2 vs a 12 point increase when taking that ratio into account. When including sigils, its a 27 : 23 increase in favor of burns) Condi Engineer is similar to Holo dps (IE, could also stand to be buffed) so there's a bit of leeway to buff things like Incendiary Powder and Flamethrower kit to reach that baseline.

Burning on Sword 2 basically just makes the bleed a slightly higher damaging burn assuming no Condition damage and taking the Firearms traitline. Converting it to a burn makes equivalent to a 3 second or 5 second burn which is still kind of pathetic, but it still has great power scaling.

Also, an addendum:

Big Boomer- now grants 5% of Power as Precision instead of Vitality.

Big Boomer is kind of awkward as it is now with a Vitality/Ferocity conversion ( even a Vitality/Precision conversion would have made more sense.) By making this a Precision/Ferocity conversion, Grieving gear would be able to almost reach the crit cap when fully buffed while not affecting zerker setups. With a Grieving Holo, you'd take this over Short fuse since Photon Forge locks you out of Bomb kit for some time.

Alright, I'll go over the Firebrand build that gets the most benefit from Grieving and try to make some key parallels to demonstrate how Holo could potentially work.

To make Grieving better than Zerker builds, you need enough crit from traits that extra precision from zerker ends up wastedTo make Grieving better than Viper, you need to focus only 1 condition that can hit max or nearly max duration without expertise.To make mono condition with power filler viable over condi spam, you need to be forced or nudged into it.

Crit:Firebrand hits crit cap with full buffs and Grieving gear by getting 25% critical chance from traits.Holosmith is about 5% below the crit cap with 20% from traits. By making Big Boomer talent a Precision conversion rather than a Vitality conversion, this makes up the missing 5% without need for different gear.

Burn DurationFirebrand can hit exactly 100% burn duration without any expertise and utilize Balthazar runes.Holosmith can hit 98% burn duration from Flame Legion runes instead of Balthazar runes which would shoot it over the cap to 113%. Flame Legion runes give power and 7% power damage against burning enemies, nudging Engi into power. This necessitates 30 expertise from 1 piece of Viper's Gear to cap burn duration.

Filler autosGuardian Scepter does 976(+ 2.664) damage over 2.56 seconds.Engineer Flamethrower does 979 (+2.75) damage + 4(8) second burn over 2.57 seconds

Now of course Firebrand doesn't have a major choice between two damage traits like Engi does with Modified Ammunition and Incendiary Powder. While a 20% increase to all power damage seems insurmountable, keep in mind that if your only condition damage is burning, Incendiary powder becomes a 33% increase to all condition damage you deal. This means the damage ratio could be skewed 65 : 35 in favor of power over burns and Incendiary powder would still come out on top. This is the point of the Crystal Config: Storm buff; You're purposely adjusting your ratio of Power : Condition damage so that Incendiary Powder comes out on top and Grieving gear becomes superior to Zerker. Meanwhile, on the Viper front, you have easy capping of burn duration, the change to Sword #2 giving a burn over Pistol MH, and Laser Disk and Prime Light Beam being very good power based abilities that easily take the place of extra kits, allowing you to use Flamethrower autos. Remember, the only difference in terms of burn damage between a full Viper and Grieving +1 Viper would be Berserker runes which give 175 condition damage and 5% extra condition damage

I'm curious of the premise of this thread, why is using Berserker's over Grieving "disappointing"? It would be the same build. Are you looking for ways to spend time and gold?

A Berserker setup uses Rifle w/Bomb Kit, Grenade Kit, Laser Disk, Prime Light Beam. Autos with bombs

A theoretical Grieving setup would use Sword/Pistol over Rifle, and Flamethrower over Grenade. Autos with Flamethrower

This also is essentially the chance for Flamethrower kit to become relevant dps which in turn, gives Power Holo decent ranged attacks that don't wear out your 1 key. A Grieving burn setup is also the only thing that makes sense for Sword/Pistol.

I don't think any build that autos with Flamethrower will ever be relevant. To each their own.

I just compared Flamethrower to Guardian Scepter which is used as part of a relevant dps build. FT gets an additonal 4 second burn and on average 4-second 3 stack bleeds on top of equivalent power scaling. Flamethower is mainly just a filler attack anyways, what matters is that Holo gains access to enough burns to achieve similar results to a Firebrand.