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A theory on why Ranged classes are not buffed for PvE


Doctor Hide.6345

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With the recent non-buff to Deadeye with the latest patch and the general lack of buffs for ranged for PvE, I think I know why now after some thinking. I think GW2 pick what weapon you system is at fault which makes balancing anything a hassle. If you buff one, it might effect the other one too drastically. I think that is the reason personally; if the system was like other MMOs with just one weapon only, ranged would actually be wanted in high end runs.

I say this because I have been looking at FF14, WoW, B&S, SWTOR, and probably any other MMO out there, and the thing I noticed is that ranged classes are taken and maybe even preferred because ranged actually does decent damage to bosses and mobs unlike GW2 which is all melee centric for PVE. That is my theory at least though from analyzing other games that the pick what weapon selection kills GW2 ranged classes because they don't know how to balance them right.

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About what game mode are we talking? In PvP guardian uses scepter, ranger shortbow, ele staff, warrior longbow probably some other classes use a ranged weapon too.In PvP guardians have use for scepter and sometimes longbow, engineer uses rifle, necro scepter and staff, some ele builds use scepter, mesmer run with GS scepter or staff etc.In wvw I have not much of an idea but roaming is close to spvp in some areas.

What you don't see in gw2 pve is a class standing far away from its allies because you then don't get any boons/healing or other form of support

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@"Crystal Black.8190" said:About what game mode are we talking? In PvP guardian uses scepter, ranger shortbow, ele staff, warrior longbow probably some other classes use a ranged weapon too.In PvP guardians have use for scepter and sometimes longbow, engineer uses rifle, necro scepter and staff, some ele builds use scepter, mesmer run with GS scepter or staff etc.In wvw I have not much of an idea but roaming is close to spvp in some areas.

What you don't see in gw2 pve is a class standing far away from its allies because you then don't get any boons/healing or other form of support

I am talking PvE(Fractals, raids, dungeons, open world). PvP is a whole other matter to balance when it comes to ranged vs melee. In PvE, ranged is frowned upon while in other games it is not. Boon sharing and healing is one of the causes because they made the range so short. If they adjusted it so the whole party gets it no matter the location of the player, that would be one step forward in making range viable.

The other is still the lack of damage from ranged weapons. Warrior rifle does jack damage in PvE. Deadeye rifle is not much better. DH LB is not that great either. The only kind of decent ranged weapons are scepters and staffs for the magic users. Also, P/P doesn't do much either in comparison to melee. I am talking about having ranged weapons do 30k and up damage. With us being able to pick weapons though, I think A-net doesn't want the headache of balancing ranged because melee is "good enough, so deal with it". If the design of the game was different, ranged would be accepted more in PvE.

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It would help the game in many ways if there were a skill split between the modes. I get their argument that they don't want to make a skill do completely different things but simple number tweaks like base damage and stat scaling should be possible. If a skill does a lot of damage to a player this doesn't mean it is a powerful skill against a boss.

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@Crystal Black.8190 said:It would help the game in many ways if there were a skill split between the modes. I get their argument that they don't want to make a skill do completely different things but simple number tweaks like base damage and stat scaling should be possible. If a skill does a lot of damage to a player this doesn't mean it is a powerful skill against a boss.

I would love more of a skill split if it means more ranged damage because right now PvP is holding a lot of buffing for ranged combat back as well.

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You can just buff the weapons directly though, so I dont see how the title of this thread is relavent. You imply ranged classes can only be balance through traits (?) and changing traits on a whole to balance a weapon set would throw balance out the window, which itself is really only critical for PvP anyway, which can have separate balance to PvE. Also since you bring up deadeye as an example I can think of some general changes to the elite profession which would improve its usability rather than be a straight out dps increase. Like decreasing the delay in marking a target, LoS/lag issues and being able to interrupt the cast of mark by casting another ability.

So I like to emphasis that PvE an PvP can have separate balance and a weapon set doesnt have to over perform in one and be totally lacking in the other. Rifle for instance is totally lacking in PvE cause it doesnt do AoE and single target sustain dmg is low.

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The wide selection in weapons is one of the best things about this game though. I hate it when mmos restrict each class to one weapon, like oh you're the rouge, so you conveniently find pairs of identical daggers lying around and that is all you can use. It's lame.

Ranged weapons have to do less damage because they are so much safer, you can maintain doing damage almost all the time where as melee has to dodge or move away. Like in chaos fractal, if the gladiator steps in a bunch of purple squares you have to move away, you have to avoid his sword strikes, you have to get out of his aoe charged attack if you don't have enough cc, etc. If you're ranged you don't have to do any of that, you just move around while constantly damaging him.

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@eldrjth.7384 said:You can just buff the weapons directly though, so I dont see how the title of this thread is relavent. You imply ranged classes can only be balance through traits (?) and changing traits on a whole to balance a weapon set would throw balance out the window, which itself is really only critical for PvP anyway, which can have separate balance to PvE. Also since you bring up deadeye as an example I can think of some general changes to the elite profession which would improve its usability rather than be a straight out dps increase. Like decreasing the delay in marking a target, LoS/lag issues and being able to interrupt the cast of mark by casting another ability.

So I like to emphasis that PvE an PvP can have separate balance and a weapon set doesnt have to over perform in one and be totally lacking in the other. Rifle for instance is totally lacking in PvE cause it doesnt do AoE and single target sustain dmg is low.

I am not implying that at all. What I am saying is that most ranged weapons are very weak either by traits or by the very weapon themselves. For the Deadeye, those changes won't help it reach past 30k damage because the rifle itself is awful because it doesn't hit hard ebough. I don't even think I mentioned traits actually. You were the first to do it.

I know they can have separate balance; they just don't choose too because of the work involved because of how we pick weapons. The balance would be a nightmare because they would essentially be balancing everything twice for PvP and PvE. I don't think they want that hassle hence why ranged suffers in PvE.

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What do you mean by ranged "classes" then? only class to be totally ranged almost is elementalist? And deadeye is an elite profession which is unlocked via specialisation. Otherwise all professions can be ranged or melee. If youre talking weapon set then each can be balanced on its own.

I think balance for PvE isnt really as essential as it is for PvP. It can be performing say within 50% ranged of the highest dpsing class and be still usuable (which means 20k+ dps under ideal circumstances), I dont see how hitting this ballpark range is a pain in the arse really.

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@eldrjth.7384 said:What do you mean by ranged "classes" then? only class to be totally ranged almost is elementalist? And deadeye is an elite profession which is unlocked via specialisation. Otherwise all professions can be ranged or melee. If youre talking weapon set then each can be balanced on its own.

I think balance for PvE isnt really as essential as it is for PvP. It can be performing say within 50% ranged of the highest dpsing class and be still usuable (which means 20k+ dps under ideal circumstances), I dont see how hitting this ballpark range is a pain in the kitten really.

By ranged class I mean stuff like DH LB, Warrior Rifle, Deadeye with P/P and rifle, Ranger LB etc. Allowing that class to use all ranged if it so wants in a high end PvE setting. You would think they would buff those weapons to be able to be taken, but all of their damage is lacking for PvE. Deadeye can only do about 18k damage, so it still falls short of that required 20k. Deadeye is even one of the heavy hitters as well.

I disagree. I think PvE is just as important as PvP balance. PvP balance however screws with PvE all the time because they don't want to dual balance it. They have not done it really since the game came out which is why I am saying it's a pain in the but for them. If it was so easy, they would have done it by now.

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There doesn't need to be any theories, the reason is easy to find. Anet, like most game developers, view ranged as an offensive+defensive stat. Range=safety and as such are required to have lower numbers. However, like most devs, they ignore how the game is even designed. In most MMORPGs I've played even if you picked a ranged class you never got to play as a ranged class unless the boss had an aoe around them that forced you away, otherwise you basically played as if you were melee. The range being "safer" only makes sense if playing at range is even optimal in the first place, but it isn't. You miss out on heals, buffs, now shields, etc that all impact your damage output. Playing at range in all these games tend to result in dramatic dps losses, and yet... balance or mechanical changes don't take these facts into consideration.

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I think the reason deadeye riffle do "little" damage in PvE is the same than why reaper's GS have a low attack speed. These are weapons that have potential for burst and there is a need to keep in check their sustain damage to avoid rotations that might break balance.

So yeah, reaper got gravedigger and deadeye got death judgement. Which are 2 skills that might very well achieve the same numbers if supported by a team. Gravedigger can be spammed when your foe is under 50% life but death judgement is a range attack that do not require you to melee your foe.

In the end they also have to balance PvP and try to limit as much as possible the balance split.

The ranged option are generally not that much weaker than the melee option. Elementalists (staff and scepter), guardian (scepter), necromancers (scepter and axe), mesmers (scepter), engineer (grenade), thief (pistol), ranger (Sbow and Lbow)... all of those dish out competitive damage in PvE and are even used more than othen to clear the content. They usually are just not "burst" weapons.

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@Yamazuki.6073 said:There doesn't need to be any theories, the reason is easy to find. Anet, like most game developers, view ranged as an offensive+defensive stat. Range=safety and as such are required to have lower numbers. However, like most devs, they ignore how the game is even designed. In most MMORPGs I've played even if you picked a ranged class you never got to play as a ranged class unless the boss had an aoe around them that forced you away, otherwise you basically played as if you were melee. The range being "safer" only makes sense if playing at range is even optimal in the first place, but it isn't. You miss out on heals, buffs, now shields, etc that all impact your damage output. Playing at range in all these games tend to result in dramatic dps losses, and yet... balance or mechanical changes don't take these facts into consideration.

I don't know what games you have played, but all the MMOs I have played, I have always stayed at ranged and got the buffs/heals just fine. Yes, there aoe mechanics you might have to stack to make haling easier at time. Once that was done, you spread out again going back to range. In FF14 as a BLM, I never stuck with the melee because that was when the aoes hit you the most. If you stay at range, they are a lot less likely to hit you. There are many other examples of this in other games, so I am not sure which ones you are playing. I think you are wrong though if you think that justifies ranges lack of damage because it really isn't "safe". It's just an alternative play-style.

Also, they are not DPS losses in other games unlike this one. FF14 BLM, WoW hunter(when it isn't nerfed), Sniper and Gunslinger from SwToR are all taken into content and do respectable damage at range compared to their melee counterparts.

@Dadnir.5038 said:I think the reason deadeye riffle do "little" damage in PvE is the same than why reaper's GS have a low attack speed. These are weapons that have potential for burst and there is a need to keep in check their sustain damage to avoid rotations that might break balance.

So yeah, reaper got gravedigger and deadeye got death judgement. Which are 2 skills that might very well achieve the same numbers if supported by a team. Gravedigger can be spammed when your foe is under 50% life but death judgement is a range attack that do not require you to melee your foe.

In the end they also have to balance PvP and try to limit as much as possible the balance split.

The ranged option are generally not that much weaker than the melee option. Elementalists (staff and scepter), guardian (scepter), necromancers (scepter and axe), mesmers (scepter), engineer (grenade), thief (pistol), ranger (Sbow and Lbow)... all of those dish out competitive damage in PvE and are even used more than othen to clear the content. They usually are just not "burst" weapons.

I understand that view point for the PvP side for DJ and Gravedigger, but I disagree on the balance split. I think they should be split balance wise even if I doubt it would ever happen because the PvP balance is screwing over the PvE balance. That is especially true for Deadeye and the rifle. They need to balance the Deadeye separately from the PvP side in order to make the rifle reach 30k and more dps. The PvP is holding it back.

I already mentioned they did a good job with most staff and scepters which is the only kind of exception here. P/P, LB and SB, and Rifle are not competitive damage wise because they do not reach the 30k benchmark. I won't even mention engi grenades because engi as a whole is a mess of a class, but that is a whole other issue. I disagree on most of the weapons you listed as being good when in fact they are not.

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Thread doesn't make much sense; there are no 'ranged' classes in this game. If you feel that 'ranged' isn't getting buffs, you haven't used enough data points to come to that conclusion in the first place; one patch cycle simply isn't enough to tell you that 'ranged' classes don't get buffs.

That being said, most posters here have nailed it; ranged weapons have an inherent advantage to them and perhaps if you are guessing correctly, I would put my money on this being the reason why.

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@Obtena.7952 said:Thread doesn't make much sense; there are no 'ranged' classes in this game. If you feel that 'ranged' isn't getting buffs, you haven't used enough data points to come to that conclusion in the first place; one patch cycle simply isn't enough to tell you that 'ranged' classes don't get buffs.

That being said, most posters here have nailed it; ranged weapons have an inherent advantage to them and perhaps if you are guessing correctly, I would put my money on this being the reason why.

The thread makes total sense because ranged weapons are frowned upon in high end PvE. I am not just talking this patch cycle. I am talking all the patch cycles. Tell me, do you see any P/P,rifle or LB use in the meta? Everyone and their semantics. You know what I mean by ranged class, so people trying to avoid buffing ranged weapons to be 30k just because I said class are not helping.

The meta requires everyone to be basically melee with the eles aside because melee does more damage then ranged which is not right. A-net doesn't buff ranged because they are going by the mentality of classes already have melee, so it's good enough. That problem derives from all classes having melee or ranged options which basically forces people that prefer range to go melee. There are no rifles, pistols, SB, and LB that can do 30k plus damage. I can't believe I am the only one who doesn't see that as a problem. The lack of split balancing for PvE and PvP doesn't help either..Other games balance classes that have ranged options just fine and are wanted in high end PvE. That is not the case with GW2 which turns a lot of ranged players away. Just because you like melee doesn't mean ranged has to get the short end of the stick.

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They aren't frowned upon because they aren't buffed by Anet. They are frowned upon because of how boons are distributed to the team. You can buff ranged all you want ... that still won't make ranged weapons any more desirable in high end PVE. You've made an incorrect correlation that people don't want ranged weapons in high end PVE because they aren't good. That's not true.

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@Obtena.7952 said:They aren't frowned upon because they aren't buffed by Anet. They are frowned upon because of how boons are distributed to the team. You can buff ranged all you want ... that still won't make ranged weapons any more desirable in high end PVE. You've made an incorrect correlation that people don't want ranged weapons in high end PVE because they aren't good. That's not true.

I also mentioned increase the boons and healing to all party members regardless of distance to also help fix the range issue in an earlier post. I still don't think that would help ranged because of the lack of damage. I disagree with you. I think my correlation is correct in this regard due to my observations on the forums, reddit, and in the game.

People only really take builds/weapons that can perform in the 30k range which the current range can't do.

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There are LOTS of builds, including melee builds, that can't do 30K DPS ... this is not a ranged problem. Even if you had ranged builds that did 30K, people still wouldn't want you in high end PVE, for the reason I already stated.

And no, there is actually a reason that there is a range for boons and healing with the party. It's not some random bad idea Anet implemented. It's to reward people that play co-operatively and at higher risk to themselves. For this reason alone, ranged will never get those boons and heals.

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@Obtena.7952 said:There are LOTS of builds, including melee builds, that can't do 30K DPS ... this is not a ranged problem. Even if you had ranged builds that did 30K, people still wouldn't want you in high end PVE, for the reason I already stated.

And no, there is actually a reason that there is a range for boons and healing with the party. It's not some random bad idea Anet implemented. It's to reward people that play co-operatively and at higher risk to themselves. For this reason alone, ranged will never get those boons and heals.

So basically you are anti-range and pro-melee then because you like the boon range limit. Gotcha. I am going to end this conversation with you here then because I think removing the limit to allow more ranged weapons is a good thing, and yes, it is a bad idea to have that limit there in the first place because it effects players that prefer range too much.

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I'm not anti or pro anything. I'm just telling you why it works that way and why it won't change. If you like the way other games handle range/melee in high end PVE, go play them. GW2 handles it this way for a reason, and a good one. In case you haven't noticed, Anet isn't trying to do things like other MMO's, so suggesting they do things like other MMO's because it's how MMO's do them doesn't really make much sense.

You can still play ranged, you simply need to make sure you choose teammates that are less incensed about how that affects their success in high end PVE. That's not a problem for ANet to solve, it's yours.

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@Obtena.7952 said:No, ranged is not excluded because of bad design, only bad players. I play ranged whenever I want to .. because of who I team with. The game does not exclude you from content because of 'ranged'.

I also make my own groups play with my friends, but when my friends aren't on, it gets annoying to get groups together. I also get tired of making my own, so it would be nice to just join a group and not worry because I prefer ranged. That is not possible though because of bad design decisions from A-net which makes ranged prejudiced against.

The current situation is not acceptable. You may think it is, but it is really not.

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It sure is annoying, but that's not a problem for Anet to solve by destroying their whole system for how players interact with the game and each other. Their system is not everything to everyone; you don't find it acceptable, but then again, your system isn't necessarily acceptable to everyone either. There isn't anything better about favouring range over melee than favouring melee over ranged. It's just a different flavour. The only advantage either system has over the other is that we have one and not the other. For this reason alone it won't change.

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@Obtena.7952 said:It sure is annoying, but that's not a problem for Anet to solve by destroying their whole system for how players interact with the game and each other. Their system is not everything to everyone; you don't find it acceptable, but then again, your system isn't necessarily acceptable to everyone either. There isn't anything better about favouring range over melee than favouring melee over ranged. It's just a different flavour. The only advantage either system has over the other is that we have one and not the other. For this reason alone it won't change.

This way it favours everyone because the melee still get the same boons and healing as the ranged, so it's a win-win. It's not destroying the system because everything will be as it is now. The only difference would be that ranged finally have a fighting chance. There is nothing wrong with that.

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