Class balance......

When you say class balance, what does it mean?

When you balance something you weight each aspect. The main part of this issue is that in most mmos, there are not penalties to counter the powerful abilities that each class may have in their arsenal. By balancing classes, not all classes are the same, you have to weight it out and BALANCE it with penalties!Example, let’s use a typical Warrior’s damage. A warrior is a usually a tank class who can mitigate well and can do decent damage. Lately you have seen where tanking classes can do on par damage with pure dps classes with no penalty. Let’s say this Warrior class has a berserker mechanic. When the Warrior activates his berserking mechanic, he will ultimately succeed beyond the class’s moderate damage dps output by maybe 20% at the most.Since this tanking class now has a modifier to increase its damage output there has to be some kind of penalty to balance it. Simply the warrior’s mitigation should decreases substantially and they should be more prone to critical hits more often. For instance, in berserking they should do 20% more damage but receive 40% more damage back ...but this doesn't happen at least not with all classes

The truth is that some classes have devs who play them and some don't, or those that do play certain specs and classes aren't knowledgeable enough to fully explain why a change isn't good for the spec/class and this really puts a spotlight on why certain classes are performing as they are. Not sure that's a good things right now but it's interesting to think about when viewing upcoming changes.

If you want me to show more examples :

• https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Jaunt
• https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Prime_Light_Beam

Now I don't want be here listing everything...it's pretty self-explanatory at this point where I am going.....I could add much much more with links ...but alas forum moderation .

This seems like just another thinly veiled nerf mesmer thread, i think your new but we had these threads for 5years man. You just gotta understand some classes you just cannot face roll against they punish it very hard, stop treating every fight like its a warrior, or a ranger that your fighting.

Mesmer does need nerfs and they will get them, whether you defend them or not @Genesis.5169

Here is a read; if u haven't read it before.

http://www.tentonhammer.com/articles/guild-wars-2-are-thieves-and-mesmer-s-the-cause-of-the-meta

Truth is: both mesmer+thief are Anet Favorite classes. As long Favoritism exists, nothing will be done.Community outcry increases, expect: 'slap on the wrists nerfs'Community outcry dwindle: expect 'slap on the wrist nerfs' reversed

Same in the past, Same in the present, Same tomorrow.

Nothing new really.

No sugar-coating truth

@Burnfall.9573 said:Here is a read; if u haven't read it before.

http://www.tentonhammer.com/articles/guild-wars-2-are-thieves-and-mesmer-s-the-cause-of-the-meta

Truth is: both mesmer+thief are Anet Favorite classes. As long Favoritism exists, nothing will be done.

half truth, thief didnt get any buffs last times but even some nerf and "bug fixes" which was mainly with nerf meaning while many other classes got additional mobility to equal to thief like many supidly passive invulerability...while mesmer not only wasnt touched but also got spec which is almost unkillable if played by just good playerhttps://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/16960/help-against-condi-mirage#latest

Did op list prime light beam as a no counter balance skill? If so op mustnt have seen the wave of engineer tears when they tried it in wvw on first week and got destroyed by retaliation

@Vertep.2498 said:

@Burnfall.9573 said:Here is a read; if u haven't read it before.

http://www.tentonhammer.com/articles/guild-wars-2-are-thieves-and-mesmer-s-the-cause-of-the-meta

Truth is: both mesmer+thief are Anet Favorite classes. As long Favoritism exists, nothing will be done.

Oh please, thieves are still S tier meta, just like they've been S tier meta since spring 2016. (and where S tier meta pre-HoT)

@Rezzet.3614 said:Did op list prime light beam as a no counter balance skill? If so op mustnt have seen the wave of engineer tears when they tried it in wvw on first week and got destroyed by retaliationYeah I don't understand where the OP was going with that.

If I where to make a list of things with no realistic way of reactively countering. Emphasis on "reactively" obviously you can anticipate such things, but that's still blind guesswork and is not in any way reliable.

Steal (and honestly most of meta thief's kit)Mirage's condi burstThe stealth alpha from power Mesmer.Scourge's F skillsScepter FA ele burst.

@Crinn.7864 said:

@Rezzet.3614 said:Did op list prime light beam as a no counter balance skill? If so op mustnt have seen the wave of engineer tears when they tried it in wvw on first week and got destroyed by retaliationYeah I don't understand where the OP was going with that.

Crinn I always believe you are the best commenter without sided with anything! Mirage honestly in PVP lol man I have no chance, even a necro I still can take him/her down depending on the class. few days ago I played with my P/P Staff daredevil against a shield warrior with axe, oh man he's quite a dam good pvp-er. honestly I suck but just using dodging and unload and that guy is completely in high ranked area!

I genuinely have no idea what the OP is trying to say.

I like how Mesmer mains come out of the woodwork to defend their broken class lmao grow up and have some self-awareness, the class needs a nerf.

The developers, I believe, have stated at one time that class balance isn't based on each individual class but rather the utility each class brings to a 5 person team. In other words, balance is based on team composition.

So you have classes like thief which are great at mobility and +1'ing, then you have elementalists which are kind of jack-of-all-trades class. Warriors are guards excel at tanking and enduring sustained damage, druids heal, rangers kill from a long distance, mesmers.... Mesmerize things... ?

Anyways the point is, there will be some classes/builds that will be an outright hard counter to whatever you're playing. But what matters is what you're bringing to the table as far as team utility. It'll be something every other class can not do for the team. Thoughts?

@Burnfall.9573 said:Truth is: (...) thief are Anet Favorite classes.

XDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDD

@edit: btw.. really? I mean... REALLY?! You post a link to an article that is older than HoT? Even pre-hot-announcement... This is all bs now. I think this is in general all bs what the author said (even back then)

Is it just me or that "thief/mesmer" post was during cele ele era...where you have esports with 5 cele ele.

But yeah mirage needs nerf, but more due to the trait Elusive Mind. Jaunt is in no way powerful with its 20s CD that has similar effect as a weapon skill, only thing made it elite is having 3 charges but when you consider all 3 the CD is 60s. Try mirage before you asks for nerf and you'll see both area that needs nerfs and buffs. Asking random nerfs is the very reason builds got nerfed to oblivion and diversity is limited. If we really want to argue about "meeting conditions for dealing damage" mesmer's major weakness has been that their damage is tied to illusions for 5 years. Cleaving does work and that's why mesmer tends to lose teamfight presence outside of CS+moa. Not all classes has accessible cleaves but builds like scourge, holosmith or even DH has enough cleave to handle it.

Same with prime light beam, it has huge 1.25s tell and straight projectile. Damage is not fatal for those not running glass ammy and I'd argue the thing that makes it hurt is easily obtained 10 might stacks from corona burst. Holosmith actually also matches your description in that they're able to outperform at a risk of overcharging and throwing away 50% of health. This restricts them from becoming a tanking class and most of them run rocket boot to fill the roamers role.

@Crinn.7864 said:

@Rezzet.3614 said:Did op list prime light beam as a no counter balance skill? If so op mustnt have seen the wave of engineer tears when they tried it in wvw on first week and got destroyed by retaliationYeah I don't understand where the OP was going with that.

You're definitely on to something here.

There are so many skills + traits with no reactive counterplay. Some are more balanced than others, but they all leave your opponent with a feeling of frustration and "well what was I supposed to do about that??" Let's list a few:

• instant attacks - Unless you have superhuman reflexes, you can't realistically dodge, interrupt or otherwise react to these. That thief IS going to hit you with steal. That reaper IS going to hit you with Suffer! That guard will land Judge's Intervention etc. etc. With instant attacks, you have to be borderline telepathic and have to develop an intuition of just knowing when your opponent is going to use one, then defend or react slightly before they actually do it.
• passive on-cc/on-damage traits - Given that your opponent can't tell whether you're running these or not, they have to play as if you are. This takes away a lot of gameplay and feels really bad if you don't know they're there. Eg. Warrior charges at a Ranger. Ranger notices Warrior has no stability, so they use Point Blank Shot to keep them at a distance. Last Stand triggers. Warrior hits Ranger. Ranger dies. This is terrible game design. A new-ish Ranger would feel this is really unfair. How were they supposed to know that would happen? There's no icon on the Warrior's status bar, no obvious tell.
• things that are just a bit too good - catch-all category for things that are pretty unfun to play against and don't have much counterplay: eg. fighting against a scourge feels really bad if you're playing a melee build. You just can't win no matter what you do. See also: Unblockable attacks that don't have obvious animations (eg. basi venom), 1-shots out of stealth, condi bombs (for builds/classes without much cleanse), etc.

@Kamikazi.5380 said:I like how Mesmer mains come out of the woodwork to defend their broken class lmao grow up and have some self-awareness, the class needs a nerf.

I like how you haven't been to the mesmer forums to see the reactions from mesmer mains who have any sense. We want to see fixes come to mirage. We want to see some obviously broken mechanics nerfed.

Edit I mean hell, it was the mesmer subforum that was complaining about how overpowered EM was before PoF even dropped. As soon as we heard about that trait we were talking about how strong it was and were wondering what the fuck ANet was smoking when they gave it to us.

@Arheundel.6451 said:When you say class balance, what does it mean?

When you balance something you weight each aspect. The main part of this issue is that in most mmos, there are not penalties to counter the powerful abilities that each class may have in their arsenal. By balancing classes, not all classes are the same, you have to weight it out and BALANCE it with penalties!Example, let’s use a typical Warrior’s damage. A warrior is a usually a tank class who can mitigate well and can do decent damage. Lately you have seen where tanking classes can do on par damage with pure dps classes with no penalty. Let’s say this Warrior class has a berserker mechanic. When the Warrior activates his berserking mechanic, he will ultimately succeed beyond the class’s moderate damage dps output by maybe 20% at the most.Since this tanking class now has a modifier to increase its damage output there has to be some kind of penalty to balance it. Simply the warrior’s mitigation should decreases substantially and they should be more prone to critical hits more often. For instance, in berserking they should do 20% more damage but receive 40% more damage back ...but this doesn't happen at least not with all classes

The truth is that some classes have devs who play them and some don't, or those that do play certain specs and classes aren't knowledgeable enough to fully explain why a change isn't good for the spec/class and this really puts a spotlight on why certain classes are performing as they are. Not sure that's a good things right now but it's interesting to think about when viewing upcoming changes.

If you want me to show more examples :

• https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Jaunt
• https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Prime_Light_Beam

Now I don't want be here listing everything...it's pretty self-explanatory at this point where I am going.....I could add much much more with links ...but alas forum moderation .

Agree.