Scourge makes Reaper redundant — Guild Wars 2 Forums

Scourge makes Reaper redundant

Crinn.7864Crinn.7864 Member ✭✭✭✭
edited November 20, 2017 in Necromancer

Scourge fills the exact same role that reaper does, except scourge does it better, and this is true for every game mode.

What was Reaper used for in sPvP?
boonhate, debuffing, and cleave pressure in teamfights. Generally paired with a support.
What is Scourge used for in sPvP?
boonhate, debuffing, and cleave pressure in teamfights. Generally paired with a support.

What was Reaper used for in WvW?
AoE boonrip in zergs, and condi cleave.
What is Scourge used for in WvW?
AoE boonrip in zergs, and condi cleave.

What was Reaper used for in PvE?
selfish no-utility DPS.
What is Scourge used for in PvE?
selfish no-utility DPS.

Scourge is a 100% upgrade to reaper in every gamemode. Scourge offers more DPS, more utility, more boonhate, and more boon generation that Reaper does. And with reaper's degen being bumped up to 5%, you can't really even say that Reaper has better survivability either.

Sanity is for the weak minded
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<1

Comments

  • I would disagree, try doing the kinda direct damage with a Scourge. Also, Reaper really didnt have that much Boonhate anyway. I'd say they are going in the right direction with Reaper. Shroud decay defo needs to be checked, the 5% decay is simply too much.

    As for the upgrade. Well to P2W. What new elite spec ISNT a flatout upgrade of HoT elites? None. They are ALL better. How else do you think Anet is going to sell them? sure wont be based on good balanced gameplay.

  • vicious.5683vicious.5683 Member ✭✭✭

    That's how you sell copies of your game.

  • Aetatis.5418Aetatis.5418 Member ✭✭✭

    @ArmageddonAsh.6430 said:
    I would disagree, try doing the kinda direct damage with a Scourge. Also, Reaper really didnt have that much Boonhate anyway. I'd say they are going in the right direction with Reaper. Shroud decay defo needs to be checked, the 5% decay is simply too much.

    As for the upgrade. Well to P2W. What new elite spec ISNT a flatout upgrade of HoT elites? None. They are ALL better. How else do you think Anet is going to sell them? sure wont be based on good balanced gameplay.

    wvw point of view of pre PoF condition reaper.
    "nothing can save you" - axe 3 - well of corruption - spinal shivers - lesser spinal shivers (well tbh not many used spite just for the trait) - focus 5 - RS 2 with path of corruption - dagger 5
    and the boonhate in good squads/groups was already real (2 guards per group mandatory, just to be able to push). and yes in that regard scourge IS 100% upgrade to reaper, because everything except chill is better on scourge... + scourge got more fear, more sustain (barrier and a huge amount of condi cleanse for the group), and tactical positioning with sand swell (if somebody would finally use it accordingly).

    i am probably a tryhard ... so i still try to run reaper here and there (power and condition alike) - but whatever i try, scourge perfoms better in any sense (easier access to skills, 2-4x more mobile fileds, more range, more spam, more damage, more everything)

    @vicious.5683 said:
    That's how you sell copies of your game.

    what s/he sad

  • Dadnir.5038Dadnir.5038 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Well... at least for the necromancer the focus is on modifying how you play the profession... It's sad that it doesn't bring anything really new but let's face it, even if scourge do the same things than reaper, the gameplay is different. Same goes for the necromancer, the gameplay is different from reaper and scourge.

    Now... After being forced into boonhate/condi-management for 5 years already we can still say that it's not a wanted support and that it lead the necromancer nowhere. But Anet decided that it was what the necrmancer had to do and push this to the very limit creating the scourge which have so much boon hate that all other profession hate him to the bone and that he almost broke the game...

    Maybe next time anet will have learned and they will push the necromancer in an healthier direction...

  • Crinn.7864Crinn.7864 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited November 20, 2017

    @ArmageddonAsh.6430 said:
    I would disagree, try doing the kinda direct damage with a Scourge. Also, Reaper really didnt have that much Boonhate anyway. I'd say they are going in the right direction with Reaper. Shroud decay defo needs to be checked, the 5% decay is simply too much.

    Direct damage is not a role. The role is damage dealer. It does not matter if that damage is condition or power, what does matter is results.

    Also Reaper totally had access to plenty of boonhate, and that boonhate is one of major reasons reaper was cemented in both the HoT WvW meta and the sPvP tourney meta. Now if what you really meant to say "Reaper does not have that much boonhate compared to Scourge" then yes you'd be correct.

    @Lahmia.2193 said:
    I can't help but feel that if anet were to act on this (as they kind of did last balance patch), they'd be more likely to nerf scourge down to reaper level rather than buff reaper to scourge level. And this will leave everyone unhappy.

    Only in PvE.
    Scourge's power level in PvP is beyond broken. It's massive area cleave, combined with massive area boonrip, and little to no telegraph. Scourge is singlehandedly holding three entire classes out of the meta (engi, ele, and revenant) in addition to hardcountering a slew of otherwise viable builds on other classes. (Reaper among these)

    As of the most recent patch, Reaper would be competitive at a high level as a teamfighter in PvP, however it can't because there is this thing called scourge that both does Reaper's job better than Reaper, while also straight up hardcountering Reaper.

    Sanity is for the weak minded
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  • Obtena.7952Obtena.7952 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited November 20, 2017

    Maybe the OP is true, but that's not the point of elite specs anyways so it's not really relevant to begin with. I'm assuming you are making this point to illustrate the need for making some changes? Not a good tack. Elite specs aren't about doing something better than something else. They are about a different flavour of play; I would say the flavour you get from Scourge couldn't be any different than what you get from Reaper. The elite spec performance comparison angle simply isn't compelling to justify changes to them.

    If you think balancing is only driven by performance and justified by comparisons to other classes then prepare to be educated:

    https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/balance-updates-the-heralds-near-future-and-pvp-league-season-13/

  • mortrialus.3062mortrialus.3062 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @ArmageddonAsh.6430 said:
    I would disagree, try doing the kinda direct damage with a Scourge. Also, Reaper really didnt have that much Boonhate anyway. I'd say they are going in the right direction with Reaper. Shroud decay defo needs to be checked, the 5% decay is simply too much.

    As for the upgrade. Well to P2W. What new elite spec ISNT a flatout upgrade of HoT elites? None. They are ALL better. How else do you think Anet is going to sell them? sure wont be based on good balanced gameplay.

    Chronomancer. Druid. Berserker. All of them are more important than their counter parts. Mirage and Soulbeast are good but Spellbreaker has 0 place in PvE.

    The Psychomancer: Mesmer Elite Specialization Suggestion

  • Crinn.7864Crinn.7864 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited November 20, 2017

    @Obtena.7952 said:
    Maybe the OP is true, but that's not the point of elite specs anyways so it's not really relevant to begin with. I'm assuming you are making this point to illustrate the need for making some changes? Not a good tack. Elite specs aren't about doing something better than something else. They are about a different flavour of play; I would say the flavour you get from Scourge couldn't be any different than what you get from Reaper. The elite spec performance comparison angle simply isn't compelling to justify changes to them.

    Scourge does not offer "a different flavor of play" Scourge is just upgraded Reaper. Scourge does not open up any new roles to us, or any new gameplay. We are still a teamfigher boonhate selfish DPS class, just as we where before.

    You cannot have two elites of the same class performing the same role. Why? Because anytime you have two different methods to the same goal, one of the those methods is invariably better. And this is what has happened with Scourge. Scourge has completely replaced Reaper in all modes, because Scourge is flat better than reaper.

    Scourge needs to be changed to exclusive support, Reaper should be the damage dealer, since Reaper was exclusively designed as a Damage Dealer.

    Sanity is for the weak minded
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  • PvP
    Scourage replace condi reaper in teamfights with fb. But that doesnt mean it replaces power reaper role, since its slightly different and not ment to be main duo with fb in teamfights anyway. Ofc if you run bad power greatsword build you will do bad. At least for AT and ranked power reaper is completely fine and cant say scourage is 100% upgrade of it, its different.

  • reikken.4961reikken.4961 Member ✭✭✭

    lol salty people here are uninformed
    the top EU necro plays reaper. reaper has a lot of strengths that set it apart from scourge

  • Crinn.7864Crinn.7864 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Emapudapus.1307 said:
    PvP
    Scourage replace condi reaper in teamfights with fb. But that doesnt mean it replaces power reaper role, since its slightly different and not ment to be main duo with fb in teamfights anyway. Ofc if you run bad power greatsword build you will do bad. At least for AT and ranked power reaper is completely fine and cant say scourage is 100% upgrade of it, its different.

    Power Reaper doesn't have a different role. Power Reaper cannot do offnodes because it can't survive a thief, nor can it win a fight against the meta offnode classes.

    In teamfights Power Reaper gets dunked on by Scourge.

    Sanity is for the weak minded
    YouTube

  • ilmau.9781ilmau.9781 Member ✭✭✭

    @vicious.5683 said:
    That's how you sell copies of your game.

    we all love to spend money to buy something that force us to play something we do not want to play right?

    to be more clear, i was having LOT OF fun and i was very happy and competitive with my reaper, but now to be able to be competitive i am forced to play the scourge, and this is bad beacouse i have spent money to buy a game which i was planning to enjoy with my reaper, while now i am not, so what do we do? may i get a refund?

    Kresh Bloodghast -

  • Justine.6351Justine.6351 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited November 21, 2017

    Humorous that I've been saying this since PoF release and all I've gotten was rude/dismissive comments in return.

    If scourge didn't exist I would still be playing reaper in wvw. And I refuse to play scourge because I don't like being pigeonholed into staff/soul reaping, probably the most boring thing to play in game at the moment.

    Anet buff me :-(
    Make me good at game!

  • reaper has better CC and utility in form of cone aoe pull. also unblockable buff in form of shout and the power build is stronger on reaper than on scourge. condi reaper has same benchmark as condi scourge + condi reaper is stronger when paired with ele (ice bow is stronger in reaper's hands even more than in ele's) + in fractals reaper can spam ettin gunk consumable for chill/blind procs for a huge dps boost. reaper also has better life force regen, blind field (which corrupts boons), a leap/gap closer and better survivability in form of rise, infusing terror (oh and this also gives stability without the need of taking utility skill and its 3 stacks) and shroud (as weak as this "defense" is, we're comparing specs of the worst class in the game). basically only good thing on scourge is F2.

    "clang clang shriiiiek clang!" -Belinda Delaqua
    When I join your LFG

  • ilmau.9781ilmau.9781 Member ✭✭✭

    @Sublimatio.6981 said:
    reaper has better CC and utility in form of cone aoe pull. also unblockable buff in form of shout and the power build is stronger on reaper than on scourge. condi reaper has same benchmark as condi scourge + condi reaper is stronger when paired with ele (ice bow is stronger in reaper's hands even more than in ele's) + in fractals reaper can spam ettin gunk consumable for chill/blind procs for a huge dps boost. reaper also has better life force regen, blind field (which corrupts boons), a leap/gap closer and better survivability in form of rise, infusing terror (oh and this also gives stability without the need of taking utility skill and its 3 stacks) and shroud (as weak as this "defense" is, we're comparing specs of the worst class in the game). basically only good thing on scourge is F2.

    what game do you play mate?

    Kresh Bloodghast -

  • Crinn.7864Crinn.7864 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited November 21, 2017

    @Sublimatio.6981 said:
    reaper has better CC and utility in form of cone aoe pull. also unblockable buff in form of shout and the power build is stronger on reaper than on scourge. condi reaper has same benchmark as condi scourge + condi reaper is stronger when paired with ele (ice bow is stronger in reaper's hands even more than in ele's) + in fractals reaper can spam ettin gunk consumable for chill/blind procs for a huge dps boost. reaper also has better life force regen, blind field (which corrupts boons), a leap/gap closer and better survivability in form of rise, infusing terror (oh and this also gives stability without the need of taking utility skill and its 3 stacks) and shroud (as weak as this "defense" is, we're comparing specs of the worst class in the game). basically only good thing on scourge is F2.

    We can take any spec in the game and make a impressive sounding list of unique capabilities. That does not make a spec competitive.

    Yes there are some specific things that reaper has over scourge, however Reaper raw power level is straight up worse, and in the vast majority of situations Reaper is completely outperformed by scourge. F2 Path of Corruption spam > Nightfall and all the other shouts put together.

    It also doesn't help that Scourge totally hardcounters Reaper in PvP and WvW, which means that any group looking for a boonrip role will take scourge as taking a reaper is far too risky.

    I'll quote @Chaith.8256 on the subject, since ya'll won't take my word for it.

    @Chaith.8256 said:
    Every xpac, Necromancer evolves into doing more damage, and in a bigger radius. It's always the exact same role - teamfight carry and boon rip, accompanied by support.

    It'll get nerfed more in 3 months, I agree, but not enough to make Scrapper, Herald, Reaper, and especially not Engi good, Here is why: ArenaNet will attempt to balance it, but refuse to nerf it to the ground and build it back in another healthier role. As long as it's not nerfed into the ground, Scourge will be in every game and keep those other classes in the trashcan. It's design is a hard counter to many things, even without power creep

    Sanity is for the weak minded
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  • @Crinn.7864 said:

    ...

    It also doesn't help that Scourge totally hardcounters Reaper in PvP and WvW, which means that any group looking for a boonrip role will take scourge as taking a reaper is far too risky.

    Why not take both, reaper and scourage? As i said power reaper and scourage shouldnt fight for same spot in team, they are different. Its also not as bad as you are trying to make it sound, but again, if you have bad build you will do bad.

  • Crinn.7864Crinn.7864 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited November 21, 2017

    @Emapudapus.1307 said:

    @Crinn.7864 said:

    ...

    It also doesn't help that Scourge totally hardcounters Reaper in PvP and WvW, which means that any group looking for a boonrip role will take scourge as taking a reaper is far too risky.

    Why not take both, reaper and scourage? As i said power reaper and scourage shouldnt fight for same spot in team, they are different. Its also not as bad as you are trying to make it sound, but again, if you have bad build you will do bad.

    Tell me then what you would have the reaper doing?

    Reaper cannot teamfight if the other team fields a Scourge. This leaves 2 roles, the +1 roamer, or offnode 1v1. Reaper cannot be the +1 guy because the mobility doesn't exist, and Reaper is too vulnerable to thief +1s to be the offnode guy, not to mention Reaper loses all 1v1 matchups against all common offnode classes. (Mirage, Druid, Rifle Holosmith)

    And if you are planning on putting both a Scourge and Reaper into a teamfight together, you would just be better off with 2 scourges.

    Sanity is for the weak minded
    YouTube

  • Swagg.9236Swagg.9236 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Some people are only now realizing and rationalizing, in 2012+5, that every class in GW2 is beyond bloated with a burning trash pile of DPS "builds" and false options? This has been a problem since launch which was only irreversibly exacerbated with the specialization system.

  • Oldirtbeard.9834Oldirtbeard.9834 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Except for the fact that Reaper has one thing Scourge does not, I have access to dozens of Great Sword skins and I don't like condition builds one bit out side of playing an Affliction Warlock or a Shadow Priest in WoW.

    As soon as weapons get untethered from Elite Specs then I will try other offerings.

    “The only watchmaker is the blind forces of physics.”
    ― Richard Dawkins, The God Delusion

  • @Justine.6351 said:
    Humorous that I've been saying this since PoF release and all I've gotten was rude/dismissive comments in return.

    If scourge didn't exist I would still be playing reaper in wvw. And I refuse to play scourge because I don't like being pigeonholed into staff/soul reaping, probably the most boring thing to play in game at the moment.

    I was going to say it as well but I get so sick of my own dissatisfaction that I have to just let some things go unsaid (at least until i can stomach making another qq thread)
    The downvotes wouldn't really bother me however.

  • Agreed..I'm getting tired of writing negative kitten so im just reading...mostly, content seeing others have the same thoughts. Its almost like we could all template these issues and lay them down in the next expansions with minor alterations. This is how nonsensical this 'balancing' has become. To continue the - nerf something if you buff another is an exasperating thing to live through from 2012 to now. Utter crud.

  • KrHome.1920KrHome.1920 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited November 21, 2017

    @Crinn.7864 said:
    Power Reaper doesn't have a different role. Power Reaper cannot do offnodes because it can't survive a thief, nor can it win a fight against the meta offnode classes.

    Nonsense! 1 out of 10 thieves beats me on marauder power reaper. On paladin amulet it's more like 1 out of 20. And these few thieves might simply be better players or I am having a bad day.

    @Crinn.7864 said:
    not to mention Reaper loses all 1v1 matchups against all common offnode classes. (Mirage, Druid, Rifle Holosmith)

    I laughed hard when you said rifle holosmith. Even in WvW (where the holo deals a ton more damage) I lose against a rifle holo maybe.... let me guess... once a month or so.

    Mirage (condi): depends on my setup (running my standard build I might lose)
    Mirage (power): usually no big deal
    Druid: depends on LOS (easy on node, since he can't kite)

    And I am still waiting for the scourge that hardcounters me in pvp (no trailblazer). Did not find him yet.

  • @Crinn.7864 said:

    Tell me then what you would have the reaper doing?

    I cannot teamfight if the other team fields a Scourge. This leaves 2 roles, the +1 roamer, or offnode 1v1. I cannot be the +1 guy because reasons, and I am too vulnerable to thief +1s to be the offnode guy, not to mention I lose all 1v1 matchups against all common offnode classes. (Mirage, Druid, Rifle Holosmith)

    And if you are planning on putting both a Scourge and me Reaper into a teamfight together, you would just be better off with 2 scourges.

    Fixed, answers your problems.

  • ilmau.9781ilmau.9781 Member ✭✭✭

    oh comon guys, quit the complains already and take in mind that when you die, when you get farmed, when you are stuck waiting some good soul to pick you up, when you do not have fun, or even when you turn off gw2 to play something else, you can turn it on again, get to trading post, charge in some $$ and buy a new shiny mounth skin!!!!! so really, i do not understand why you all complains so much. Maybe beacouse skins are few? well just be patient a lil more i am sure we got more coming :)

    Kresh Bloodghast -

  • I don't know if im going to add anything helpful here because i have been out for while . But i did agree with the scourge replacing the reaper but if you need to hit direct hits you will never do enough damage with the scourge
    You always need the reaper for power

    To me I recently tried the latest balance changes on reaper and I find it pretty ugly . The percentage of the reapers shroud drains is just way too much so i think this change was the last nail on the reapers coffin. I can't play reaper anymore and i kinda lost my interest in that game because of it

    They should remove the cd on entering the shroud if they want to keep the drain at this quick.

    Now its all about scourge there is no reaper anymore

  • Just wanted to poke fun and say scourge actually does bring utility compared to reaper so ya its just a all around better reaper

  • Crinn.7864Crinn.7864 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Emapudapus.1307 said:
    Fixed, answers your problems.

    Putting words into someone's mouth does not make you witty. Everything in my original quote is correct. Just because you can take reaper and farm plebeians in unranked does not make a viable spec.

    Sanity is for the weak minded
    YouTube

  • Svarty.8019Svarty.8019 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Crinn.7864 said:
    Scourge is just upgraded Reaper.

    Scourge is up-up-and-awaygraded Reaper in terms of power, but the playstyle is boring circle-spamming nonsense. The Reaper was actually FUN.

    I guess I shouldn't be surprised, the development team has always trodden on fun things in GW2. From Banner-rezzing lords to between-ticks waypoint access to hiding mesmers to fun Reaper playstyle. Everything got ruined.

    Necro. Never knowingly blasting combo fields since 2012.

  • the problem lies in the fact that with scourge you always have shroud power... while reaper drains shroud completely after only about 4 spells.. you cant even get a solid second rotation as reaper anymore.. thats if you make it past the first.. They are doing this to force people into the new spec.. which is really sad.

  • Lahmia.2193Lahmia.2193 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @trueanimus.4085 said:
    the problem lies in the fact that with scourge you always have shroud power... while reaper drains shroud completely after only about 4 spells.. you cant even get a solid second rotation as reaper anymore.. thats if you make it past the first.. They are doing this to force people into the new spec.. which is really sad.

    Anet needs to adopt the Scourge setup for core necro and reaper. Remove the 2nd health bar and convert life force to an energy source then add the old shroud skills as F skills removing the 5th and replacing with a new shroud effect skill (but said 5th skill can be designed around the old 5 skill). Then balance necro around this, opening up our profession to some of the stuff we have lacked because of the "2nd health bar". Big job but it has happened in the past in gw1 with dervish.

    "Surrender and serve me in life, or die and slave for me in death."

  • @Crinn.7864 said:
    Scourge fills the exact same role that reaper does, except scourge does it better, and this is true for every game mode.

    This statement is absolutely true (atleast for PvP and WvW). When Path of Fire released, I was more than delighted to play with a class with near god like abilities. Even after the Halloween patch that addressed the shade bugs, it is still more broken than the pre-nerf deathly chill procmancer. The difference is procmancer had a high risk high reward playstyle. The largest chuck of damage came from the going into Shroud proc effects and most good players would dodge the shroud proc and kite the reaper while he/she is in shroud form and then re engage after they had left shroud. It needed intelligent gameplay and not the constant button spam fiesta that scourge is.

    Don't get me wrong, I enjoyed playing scourge immensely after Path of Fire release but being OP doesn't equate to having fun for long. The simplistic button mashing nature of it's gameplay is uninteresting and soon the whole idea of solo/duo Roaming as Scourge in WvW became stale to me.

    I tried going back to procmancer again but it is so horribly underpowered compared to scourge now after the deathly chill nerf (a well deserved nerf, don't get me wrong) that facing a scourge in WvW as a procmancer is almost a joke. Power Reaper on the other hand received some significant damage buffs and I can do pretty well against most classes except Spellbreaker and Scourge. Taking down a scourge in a 1v1 is a challenge for a Power Reaper even when I can tell that the scourges I am facing have lower skill level than mine just by looking at how they move and how much skills they spam.

    I believe that Scourge definitely needs to be toned down in WvW and PvP only (leave PvE alone or even buff it there) and it should be given some interesting plays to make instead of dropping shades and pressing F skills and watch stuff die. I am not biased against Scourge or anything, I purely play Necromancer and I want my class to be fun and engaging which is why I have gone back to playing Reaper.

    Additionally, I would vote for shroud degen to be reduced atleast in PvP and WvW. No one worth their salt would ever camp Shroud in WvW and PvP because of the bonus a Reaper gets while entering shroud in both Spite and Curses trees. However, at present situation, it depletes way too much by the time anything meaningful is done while in shroud and because of how hard it can be to get Life force back mid fight, going back into shroud gets harder and harder as the fight goes on. Either that or life force gain for ONLY Reaper should gain a boost (which is more appealing to me as a gameplay feature).

  • Obtena.7952Obtena.7952 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited November 21, 2017

    @Crinn.7864 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:
    Maybe the OP is true, but that's not the point of elite specs anyways so it's not really relevant to begin with. I'm assuming you are making this point to illustrate the need for making some changes? Not a good tack. Elite specs aren't about doing something better than something else. They are about a different flavour of play; I would say the flavour you get from Scourge couldn't be any different than what you get from Reaper. The elite spec performance comparison angle simply isn't compelling to justify changes to them.

    Scourge does not offer "a different flavor of play" Scourge is just upgraded Reaper. Scourge does not open up any new roles to us, or any new gameplay. We are still a teamfigher boonhate selfish DPS class, just as we where before.

    You cannot have two elites of the same class performing the same role. Why? Because anytime you have two different methods to the same goal, one of the those methods is invariably better. And this is what has happened with Scourge. Scourge has completely replaced Reaper in all modes, because Scourge is flat better than reaper.

    Scourge needs to be changed to exclusive support, Reaper should be the damage dealer, since Reaper was exclusively designed as a Damage Dealer.

    Scourge is a significant departure from the gameplay you get from Reaper or Core Necro, even if all three of those things have a similar role. Don't get me wrong, maybe all the specs do the same thing but Anet never said elite specs will have different roles ... just a different way to do things. Reaper is certainly a different beast in terms of gameplay than Scourge is; anyone would have to question the experience of someone who says otherwise.

    You can TOTALLY have two elites of the same class performing the same role, as long as they do it differently ... and you better get used to it too, because this game isn't complex enough in mechanics to support a large number of elite specs, each having a unique role. Anet never promised unique ROLES for each elite spec, only different ways to fill the roles that exist ... and there aren't many 'roles' in this game to fill to begin with

    Seems to me, you are associating HOW the specs play with WHAT they do. The WHAT can all be the same, but the HOW very different.

    If you think balancing is only driven by performance and justified by comparisons to other classes then prepare to be educated:

    https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/balance-updates-the-heralds-near-future-and-pvp-league-season-13/

  • Crinn.7864Crinn.7864 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited November 21, 2017

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @Crinn.7864 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:
    Maybe the OP is true, but that's not the point of elite specs anyways so it's not really relevant to begin with. I'm assuming you are making this point to illustrate the need for making some changes? Not a good tack. Elite specs aren't about doing something better than something else. They are about a different flavour of play; I would say the flavour you get from Scourge couldn't be any different than what you get from Reaper. The elite spec performance comparison angle simply isn't compelling to justify changes to them.

    Scourge does not offer "a different flavor of play" Scourge is just upgraded Reaper. Scourge does not open up any new roles to us, or any new gameplay. We are still a teamfigher boonhate selfish DPS class, just as we where before.

    You cannot have two elites of the same class performing the same role. Why? Because anytime you have two different methods to the same goal, one of the those methods is invariably better. And this is what has happened with Scourge. Scourge has completely replaced Reaper in all modes, because Scourge is flat better than reaper.

    Scourge needs to be changed to exclusive support, Reaper should be the damage dealer, since Reaper was exclusively designed as a Damage Dealer.

    Scourge is a significant departure from the gameplay you get from Reaper or Core Necro, even if all three of those things have a similar role. Don't get me wrong, maybe all the specs do the same thing but Anet never said elite specs will have different roles ... just a different way to do things. Reaper is certainly a different beast in terms of gameplay than Scourge is; anyone would have to question the experience of someone who says otherwise.

    You can TOTALLY have two elites of the same class performing the same role, as long as they do it differently ... and you better get used to it too, because this game isn't complex enough in mechanics to support a large number of elite specs, each having a unique role. Anet never promised unique ROLES for each elite spec, only different ways to fill the roles that exist ... and there aren't many 'roles' in this game to fill to begin with

    Seems to me, you are associating HOW the specs play with WHAT they do. The WHAT can all be the same, but the HOW very different.

    You still haven't explained to me why having Scourge be 100% better than reaper at everything is ok.

    Having a design philosophy of "two paths to the same goal" doesn't work if one of those paths is a 6-lane interstate and the other is a dirt track.

    Sanity is for the weak minded
    YouTube

  • Obtena.7952Obtena.7952 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited November 21, 2017

    Anet's goal for elite specs isn't about equivalent performance,. So the simplest explanation is that your expectation for the class is one you made up, not one aligned with what Anet's goal is. Elite specs are about flavour. Lucky for us, that isn't Anet's design philosophy. You're creating that to make an argument for change. It's as simple as Anet told us it was; Elite specs are about playing the class in a different way. Reaper, Scourge ... they do that.

    If you think balancing is only driven by performance and justified by comparisons to other classes then prepare to be educated:

    https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/balance-updates-the-heralds-near-future-and-pvp-league-season-13/

  • TheDevice.2751TheDevice.2751 Member ✭✭✭
    edited November 22, 2017

    @Obtena.7952 said:
    Anet's goal for elite specs isn't about equivalent performance,. So the simplest explanation is that your expectation for the class is one you made up, not one aligned with what Anet's goal is. Elite specs are about flavour. Lucky for us, that isn't Anet's design philosophy. You're creating that to make an argument for change. It's as simple as Anet told us it was; Elite specs are about playing the class in a different way. Reaper, Scourge ... they do that.

    So if scourge had 300k health and they shot a super condition unique aoe that literally said "kills every foe. unblockable. You can't be stopped while casting this." Essentially they are both great for teamfights, reaper and scourge. Scourge just doesn't differently right?

    Basically all I read from you was

    "Anet's goal for elite specs isn't about balance. So the simplest explanation is that your expectation for the class is one you made up (the made-up expectation being balanced), not one aligned with what Anet's goal is. Elite specs are about flavour. Lucky for us, that isn't Anet's design philosophy. You're creating that to make an argument for change. It's as simple as Anet told us it was; Elite specs are about playing the class in a different way. Reaper, Scourge ... they do that. Scourge just does that same thing better"

    You can have to classes that do the same thing in different ways... and still be balanced. What you're saying isn't.. um.. idk. Maybe you also don't believe the game should be balanced. The expectation of balance isn't one Crinn made up btw. Its an expectation of most gamers in any game ever.

    BTW Nobody is arguing that the Elites need to be different role-wise. Nobody is arguing against the design philosophy of "flavor". Whatever their design is, it should still be balanced. So the simplest explanation is that you're creating whats called a straw man argument by claiming Crinn is against their design philosophy or isn't in agreement with that design philosophy when the design philosophy has nothing to do with his argument. His argument is about balance.

  • Crinn.7864Crinn.7864 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited November 22, 2017

    @Obtena.7952 said:
    Anet's goal for elite specs isn't about equivalent performance,. So the simplest explanation is that your expectation for the class is one you made up, not one aligned with what Anet's goal is. Elite specs are about flavour. Lucky for us, that isn't Anet's design philosophy. You're creating that to make an argument for change. It's as simple as Anet told us it was; Elite specs are about playing the class in a different way. Reaper, Scourge ... they do that.

    Which may be all well and good in PvE. In PvP and WvW you actually have to fight against other builds, and with scourge filling reaper's role while also being a direct upgrade over reaper means that any team running a reaper is going to be heavily disadvantaged to a team using a scourge.

    Any game that includes PvP needs to either have all classes within a role perform equally, and if the game cannot do that, then it should not have multiple classes filling the same role.

    Sanity is for the weak minded
    YouTube

  • Obtena.7952Obtena.7952 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited November 22, 2017

    @Crinn.7864 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:
    Anet's goal for elite specs isn't about equivalent performance,. So the simplest explanation is that your expectation for the class is one you made up, not one aligned with what Anet's goal is. Elite specs are about flavour. Lucky for us, that isn't Anet's design philosophy. You're creating that to make an argument for change. It's as simple as Anet told us it was; Elite specs are about playing the class in a different way. Reaper, Scourge ... they do that.

    Which may be all well and good in PvE. In PvP and WvW you actually have to fight against other builds, and with scourge filling reaper's role while also being a direct upgrade over reaper means that any team running a reaper is going to be heavily disadvantaged to a team using a scourge.

    Any game that includes PvP needs to either have all classes within a role perform equally, and if the game cannot do that, then it should not have multiple classes filling the same role.

    The answer to that is simple ... you get to choose what builds you want to use to fight other builds. If you don't think reaper is good for that, don't use it. Furthermore, we aren't talking about balance between classes, we are talking about balance within builds of a class. Elite specs are not new classes, so the idea that they need to perform equally within a role because of PVP is a massive stretch ... a joke even.

    @TheDevice.2751 said:

    BTW Nobody is arguing that the Elites need to be different role-wise. Nobody is arguing against the design philosophy of "flavor". Whatever their design is, it should still be balanced. So the simplest explanation is that you're creating whats called a straw man argument by claiming Crinn is against their design philosophy or isn't in agreement with that design philosophy when the design philosophy has nothing to do with his argument. His argument is about balance.

    See, that's the problem. When has this game EVER given you the impression that it's goal is to have balance between different builds for a class? I've never seen such a thing ... Why would the OP or anyone else assume that given absolutely NO expectation from Anet that they attempt to make 'balance' as players view it ... it should exist? There is no strawman here. You expect something that Anet has never set the expectation for or demonstrated a hint of attempting. If anything, the game sets the OPPOSITE expectation; there is no attempt to make equivalent performance between different builds in a class; there is a very small subset of very high performance builds. it's the META approach.

    I always see all these arguments for balance ... in a game that is designed around META builds. That makes no sense. You get A build, maybe TWO if you are lucky. Sometimes you get none. That's how the game works. The value in trying to make it something it isn't is zero ... we KNOW what to expect from this game; it's 5 years in and consistent with the way classes interact with each other and the game. Anyone concerned about 'balance' between builds in a class is delusional.

    If you think balancing is only driven by performance and justified by comparisons to other classes then prepare to be educated:

    https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/balance-updates-the-heralds-near-future-and-pvp-league-season-13/

  • @Obtena.7952 said:

    I always see all these arguments for balance ... in a game that is designed around META builds. That makes no sense. You get A build, maybe TWO if you are lucky. Sometimes you get none. That's how the game works. The value in trying to make it something it isn't is zero ... we KNOW what to expect from this game;

    it's 5 years in and consistent with the way classes interact with each other and the game. Anyone concerned about 'balance' between builds in a class is delusional.

    5 years in and has consistently failed miserably with audiences. Failed with esports. Failed with streamers. Though, what you're saying, is if you openly asked ANET to respond to a post asking if their entire structure of pvp is based completely on pre-determiend meta builds (by them) and not by balance; they would agree?

  • Dadnir.5038Dadnir.5038 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Lahmia.2193 said:

    @trueanimus.4085 said:
    the problem lies in the fact that with scourge you always have shroud power... while reaper drains shroud completely after only about 4 spells.. you cant even get a solid second rotation as reaper anymore.. thats if you make it past the first.. They are doing this to force people into the new spec.. which is really sad.

    Anet needs to adopt the Scourge setup for core necro and reaper. Remove the 2nd health bar and convert life force to an energy source then add the old shroud skills as F skills removing the 5th and replacing with a new shroud effect skill (but said 5th skill can be designed around the old 5 skill). Then balance necro around this, opening up our profession to some of the stuff we have lacked because of the "2nd health bar". Big job but it has happened in the past in gw1 with dervish.

    Rather than that, make DS and RS act like a kit with a LF degen and completely remove the 2nd health bar. I don't think the scourge setup like he is right now is healthy for the game, other professions are right about one thing, the scourge shroud skill really lack counterplay in how they work. I'd even say that desert shroud is totally overpowered in this state.

    ATM, there seem to be so much work to balance scourge that it rival the work needed to balance the shroud...

    What I'd do:

    • Core: Make DS into an utility kit with dark path ground targeted and life transfert generating barrier on each tic. No longer any 2nd life bar, don't lock you out of utilities, Spectral skills generate barrier instead of life force. 3% LF degen/second.
      This make for a dull shroud that is interesting yet not dominant. Defense come naturally through utility skills

    • Reaper: Make RS into a power kit, no change from the current except that there is no longer a 2nd health bar nor does it lock you out of utilities. Shout trait grant barrier per foe stuck instead of draining life. 5% LF degen/second.
      The idea is really to go all the way into this idea of full dps necromantic berserker.

    • Scourge: Remove the "shade". Make F1 a skill that you can spam for an effect with the scourge at the center. Give a short cast time and after cast to F2-F3-F4. F5 become a channeled skill and is interruptible when a Hard CC is successfull on him. Sand savant make skill F1 to F4 ground targeted, effects happen to the scourge position and the ground targeted position, effect do not stacks. Demonic lore improve torment damage but no longer apply burn, instead, each tic of desert shroud proc F1. Desert empowerment now make skills that use life force also apply barrier. (same change for unending corruption)
      This keep the idea of the support spec, allow a true option for a genuine dps line and more than anything it allow counterplay on shroud skills.

  • ilmau.9781ilmau.9781 Member ✭✭✭

    Even if i do not like the idea to drop the shroud as a second life bar (necro have no other defense than that) i truly belive that your idea is better that what we got now.

    Kresh Bloodghast -

  • Anchoku.8142Anchoku.8142 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited November 22, 2017

    I, too, am hoping for some fundamental changes to core and Reaper now that the success of Scourge proves even a dumb, lazy, PvE player like me can fumble my way through Scourge.

    Reaper can turn into an excellent power build just by increasing short/medium range control effects or soft CC like chill and adding group buff option like GotL; perhaps add an AoE ferocity buff.

    Core Necromancer can be improved through use of multipliers in core trait lines that improve minions, by improving Dark Path, and by updating the original weapons for more punch. In particular, putrid mark's old nerf could be partly reversed while dagger and the old off-hands could be buffed.

  • Dadnir.5038Dadnir.5038 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @ilmau.9781 said:
    Even if i do not like the idea to drop the shroud as a second life bar (necro have no other defense than that) i truly belive that your idea is better that what we got now.

    Honnestly, it's not that I want the shroud to change but more that I grew tired of how much this mechanism hold back himself and end up being difficult to balance. The issue have always been the defensive aspect of the shroud, the necromancer very defense and designed especially as an HP sponge to be able to cope with the wanabee condition manager role.

    I can understand the devs fearing a profession that can theoretically freely deal damage or support it's allies while defending, the concept of the mechanism is theoretically op. However, history prove that the only real issue that the mechanism created in the game was a defensive issue. In the core era the shroud was so bad as a defensive mechanism that the necromancer could barely defend themselve in PvE, most dungeon boss could kill a necromancer throught it's shroud without breaking a sweat. Obviously there have been countless adjustement but they never reach a balanced state between the shroud defense in PvE and in PvP. That is until HoT where we could say that the defensive side of the reaper shroud was barely balanced in the game as a whole. When scourge came, anet just destroyed this precarious balance...

    It's a pain to say it but man... 3 whole years spent to balance a mechanisms that had finally found a balanced state for 1 of it's 2 form in regard of defense and... 2 year later they screw it all... Here they earned my bigest facepalm. What's worse is that in the last 5 years, never ever the shroud skills (offensive or support) were in a state were they could shine because their was this oppressive defensive potential that is the "2nd Health pool".

    With the avent of the scourge came the barriers which is potentially way easier to balance than the shroud will ever be. It feel like a godsend yet anet didn't go all the way to resolve the lingering issue. When I see how they manage the community it feel like they are showing a really tasty candy in front of us, showing that they can resolve the balance issues but just smile and don't do it on purpose. Maybe they've some kind of lingering attachement to the rotting mechanism tht the shroud is, maybe they are still overestimating it and refuse to really touch it until we found this so called op state when we will have mastered the shroud... For me it just feel like they don't want to accept their own failure/mistake.

    Now, I sure wrote some juicy easy fix to the mechanism, however, I'm pretty sure that the main priority of anet's devs for the necromancer is to try to fix the scourge and that with the way they balance thing it will take the years without ever questioning their choices and changing the right things on the scourge. There is a need to make sure that all scourge shroud skills can be countered and I'm pretty sure the game will have countless bandaid that will never fix this before they seem to realise it and say: "kitten it! We are already working on the next e-spec, it won't be important after that!". Result: nothing will move in the right direction.

  • Lahmia.2193Lahmia.2193 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Dadnir.5038 said:

    @Lahmia.2193 said:

    @trueanimus.4085 said:
    the problem lies in the fact that with scourge you always have shroud power... while reaper drains shroud completely after only about 4 spells.. you cant even get a solid second rotation as reaper anymore.. thats if you make it past the first.. They are doing this to force people into the new spec.. which is really sad.

    Anet needs to adopt the Scourge setup for core necro and reaper. Remove the 2nd health bar and convert life force to an energy source then add the old shroud skills as F skills removing the 5th and replacing with a new shroud effect skill (but said 5th skill can be designed around the old 5 skill). Then balance necro around this, opening up our profession to some of the stuff we have lacked because of the "2nd health bar". Big job but it has happened in the past in gw1 with dervish.

    Rather than that, make DS and RS act like a kit with a LF degen and completely remove the 2nd health bar. I don't think the scourge setup like he is right now is healthy for the game, other professions are right about one thing, the scourge shroud skill really lack counterplay in how they work. I'd even say that desert shroud is totally overpowered in this state.

    ATM, there seem to be so much work to balance scourge that it rival the work needed to balance the shroud...

    What I'd do:

    • Core: Make DS into an utility kit with dark path ground targeted and life transfert generating barrier on each tic. No longer any 2nd life bar, don't lock you out of utilities, Spectral skills generate barrier instead of life force. 3% LF degen/second.
      This make for a dull shroud that is interesting yet not dominant. Defense come naturally through utility skills

    • Reaper: Make RS into a power kit, no change from the current except that there is no longer a 2nd health bar nor does it lock you out of utilities. Shout trait grant barrier per foe stuck instead of draining life. 5% LF degen/second.
      The idea is really to go all the way into this idea of full dps necromantic berserker.

    • Scourge: Remove the "shade". Make F1 a skill that you can spam for an effect with the scourge at the center. Give a short cast time and after cast to F2-F3-F4. F5 become a channeled skill and is interruptible when a Hard CC is successfull on him. Sand savant make skill F1 to F4 ground targeted, effects happen to the scourge position and the ground targeted position, effect do not stacks. Demonic lore improve torment damage but no longer apply burn, instead, each tic of desert shroud proc F1. Desert empowerment now make skills that use life force also apply barrier. (same change for unending corruption)
      This keep the idea of the support spec, allow a true option for a genuine dps line and more than anything it allow counterplay on shroud skills.

    That would also work.

    "Surrender and serve me in life, or die and slave for me in death."

  • Teratus.2859Teratus.2859 Member ✭✭✭✭

    I don't use Reaper for any of those things.. when it comes to the builds I like to use Reaper is still far more useful than Scourge.

    In fact I prefer both Reaper and default Necromancer over Scourge..
    I was previously excited for Scourge but after getting my hands on it I don't like it.. I'll take Death Shroud any day over the Shade skills.

  • Avigrus.2871Avigrus.2871 Member ✭✭✭

    @Dadnir.5038 said:

    @Lahmia.2193 said:

    @trueanimus.4085 said:
    the problem lies in the fact that with scourge you always have shroud power... while reaper drains shroud completely after only about 4 spells.. you cant even get a solid second rotation as reaper anymore.. thats if you make it past the first.. They are doing this to force people into the new spec.. which is really sad.

    Anet needs to adopt the Scourge setup for core necro and reaper. Remove the 2nd health bar and convert life force to an energy source then add the old shroud skills as F skills removing the 5th and replacing with a new shroud effect skill (but said 5th skill can be designed around the old 5 skill). Then balance necro around this, opening up our profession to some of the stuff we have lacked because of the "2nd health bar". Big job but it has happened in the past in gw1 with dervish.

    Rather than that, make DS and RS act like a kit with a LF degen and completely remove the 2nd health bar. I don't think the scourge setup like he is right now is healthy for the game, other professions are right about one thing, the scourge shroud skill really lack counterplay in how they work. I'd even say that desert shroud is totally overpowered in this state.

    ATM, there seem to be so much work to balance scourge that it rival the work needed to balance the shroud...

    What I'd do:

    • Core: Make DS into an utility kit with dark path ground targeted and life transfert generating barrier on each tic. No longer any 2nd life bar, don't lock you out of utilities, Spectral skills generate barrier instead of life force. 3% LF degen/second.
      This make for a dull shroud that is interesting yet not dominant. Defense come naturally through utility skills

    • Reaper: Make RS into a power kit, no change from the current except that there is no longer a 2nd health bar nor does it lock you out of utilities. Shout trait grant barrier per foe stuck instead of draining life. 5% LF degen/second.
      The idea is really to go all the way into this idea of full dps necromantic berserker.

    • Scourge: Remove the "shade". Make F1 a skill that you can spam for an effect with the scourge at the center. Give a short cast time and after cast to F2-F3-F4. F5 become a channeled skill and is interruptible when a Hard CC is successfull on him. Sand savant make skill F1 to F4 ground targeted, effects happen to the scourge position and the ground targeted position, effect do not stacks. Demonic lore improve torment damage but no longer apply burn, instead, each tic of desert shroud proc F1. Desert empowerment now make skills that use life force also apply barrier. (same change for unending corruption)
      This keep the idea of the support spec, allow a true option for a genuine dps line and more than anything it allow counterplay on shroud skills.

    This sounds like it might actually work with some testing and fine tuning.

  • Dadnir.5038Dadnir.5038 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited November 22, 2017

    @Avigrus.2871 said:

    @Dadnir.5038 said:

    @Lahmia.2193 said:

    @trueanimus.4085 said:
    the problem lies in the fact that with scourge you always have shroud power... while reaper drains shroud completely after only about 4 spells.. you cant even get a solid second rotation as reaper anymore.. thats if you make it past the first.. They are doing this to force people into the new spec.. which is really sad.

    Anet needs to adopt the Scourge setup for core necro and reaper. Remove the 2nd health bar and convert life force to an energy source then add the old shroud skills as F skills removing the 5th and replacing with a new shroud effect skill (but said 5th skill can be designed around the old 5 skill). Then balance necro around this, opening up our profession to some of the stuff we have lacked because of the "2nd health bar". Big job but it has happened in the past in gw1 with dervish.

    Rather than that, make DS and RS act like a kit with a LF degen and completely remove the 2nd health bar. I don't think the scourge setup like he is right now is healthy for the game, other professions are right about one thing, the scourge shroud skill really lack counterplay in how they work. I'd even say that desert shroud is totally overpowered in this state.

    ATM, there seem to be so much work to balance scourge that it rival the work needed to balance the shroud...

    What I'd do:

    • Core: Make DS into an utility kit with dark path ground targeted and life transfert generating barrier on each tic. No longer any 2nd life bar, don't lock you out of utilities, Spectral skills generate barrier instead of life force. 3% LF degen/second.
      This make for a dull shroud that is interesting yet not dominant. Defense come naturally through utility skills

    • Reaper: Make RS into a power kit, no change from the current except that there is no longer a 2nd health bar nor does it lock you out of utilities. Shout trait grant barrier per foe stuck instead of draining life. 5% LF degen/second.
      The idea is really to go all the way into this idea of full dps necromantic berserker.

    • Scourge: Remove the "shade". Make F1 a skill that you can spam for an effect with the scourge at the center. Give a short cast time and after cast to F2-F3-F4. F5 become a channeled skill and is interruptible when a Hard CC is successfull on him. Sand savant make skill F1 to F4 ground targeted, effects happen to the scourge position and the ground targeted position, effect do not stacks. Demonic lore improve torment damage but no longer apply burn, instead, each tic of desert shroud proc F1. Desert empowerment now make skills that use life force also apply barrier. (same change for unending corruption)
      This keep the idea of the support spec, allow a true option for a genuine dps line and more than anything it allow counterplay on shroud skills.

    This sounds like it might actually work with some testing and fine tuning.

    That's the goal ;) . Still, this might make trait that strengthen you while in shroud a bit weak for scourge (in PvP). Getting used to the new way to mitigate damage might as well be quite the assle. Thought, the real wall ahead of those change would still be that they make the necromancer a bit "weaker" against conditions and that would challenge the strong will of anet to make their condi manager necromancer wet dream true.

  • Obtena.7952Obtena.7952 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited November 22, 2017

    @TheDevice.2751 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    I always see all these arguments for balance ... in a game that is designed around META builds. That makes no sense. You get A build, maybe TWO if you are lucky. Sometimes you get none. That's how the game works. The value in trying to make it something it isn't is zero ... we KNOW what to expect from this game;

    it's 5 years in and consistent with the way classes interact with each other and the game. Anyone concerned about 'balance' between builds in a class is delusional.

    5 years in and has consistently failed miserably with audiences. Failed with esports. Failed with streamers. Though, what you're saying, is if you openly asked ANET to respond to a post asking if their entire structure of pvp is based completely on pre-determiend meta builds (by them) and not by balance; they would agree?

    I don't get what you are asking me. It's clear that Anet is not going to pull a 180 and start giving us a many balanced builds for whatever game mode they can and that's not just because 'they suck'. It's pre-determined by how the game mechanics work ... meta builds are the result of those mechanics. You can't 'balance' away this design philosophy. I have no doubt that it would be _technically _easy for Anet to make some number changes and make reaper the preferred build over Scourge. That's not even the relevant question. With some work they might even be able to make the performances similar enough to make people happy. They question is why they would bother when the whole game design would ruin that effort every time the game changed or the meta shifted? It's a waste of time for Anet to chase these changes.

    If you think balancing is only driven by performance and justified by comparisons to other classes then prepare to be educated:

    https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/balance-updates-the-heralds-near-future-and-pvp-league-season-13/

  • @Obtena.7952 said:

    @TheDevice.2751 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    I always see all these arguments for balance ... in a game that is designed around META builds. That makes no sense. You get A build, maybe TWO if you are lucky. Sometimes you get none. That's how the game works. The value in trying to make it something it isn't is zero ... we KNOW what to expect from this game;

    it's 5 years in and consistent with the way classes interact with each other and the game. Anyone concerned about 'balance' between builds in a class is delusional.

    5 years in and has consistently failed miserably with audiences. Failed with esports. Failed with streamers. Though, what you're saying, is if you openly asked ANET to respond to a post asking if their entire structure of pvp is based completely on pre-determiend meta builds (by them) and not by balance; they would agree?

    I don't get what you are asking me. It's clear that Anet is not going to pull a 180 and start giving us a many balanced builds for whatever game mode they can and that's not just because 'they suck'. It's pre-determined by how the game mechanics work ... meta builds are the result of those mechanics. You can't 'balance' away this design philosophy. I have no doubt that it would be _technically _easy for Anet to make some number changes and make reaper the preferred build over Scourge. That's not even the relevant question. With some work they might even be able to make the performances similar enough to make people happy. They question is why they would bother when the whole game design would ruin that effort every time the game changed or the meta shifted? It's a waste of time for Anet to chase these changes.

    (Note: my response is largely looking at the PvE aspect of Necromancer)

    I think what really bothers a lot of Necromancer players is that when Necro has tools to fit a fight they go from being below average to average in terms of utility (excluding MO in raids, which is one example of where Necro shines in particular). This kind of comes back to the class at large being a Jack of all trades: it can CC, do alright damage, do alright cleave if you're playing condi, self sustain, etc; but when your best tools both don't elevate you above average when the situation fits it as well as not being as universally applicable to the game as other classes (9 times out of 10 powerful single target damage is more applicable to the game than powerful cleave), which put out similar damage but also have some form of support, be it stance sharing, boon distribution, venom sharing or even blasting of combo fields.

    It's that support that other classes apply that allow them to be more universally apllicable in a PvE setting than Necro in general, and the common perception is that this is due to the inherant limiters of Necro that we don't get to choose.

    "Can't buff Necro or Reaper or they'd be too tanky"

    "Can't buff Scourge because too much heavy support"

    At the end of the day I would imagine players want balance that allows them to choose, so instead of the entire profession being limited to being viewed as mediocre by the player base at large they get to choose if they have this inbuilt tankyness or heavy support so those factors aren't an issue in PvE. As such I don't think attempting to balance this is a waste of time when this has been such a contentious issue among the player base for quite some time. In essence, if Necromancer is balanced to become more universally applicable to situations: strong for cleave with skills like Epidemic, and passable for single target dps due to cleave being the strong point, and with some form of team support that in turn is both more universally applicable then faster team revival/the current lifesteal aura, as well as not being limited to just the one specialization.

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