Scourge makes Reaper redundant

Scourge fills the exact same role that reaper does, except scourge does it better, and this is true for every game mode.

What was Reaper used for in sPvP?boonhate, debuffing, and cleave pressure in teamfights. Generally paired with a support.What is Scourge used for in sPvP?boonhate, debuffing, and cleave pressure in teamfights. Generally paired with a support.

What was Reaper used for in WvW?AoE boonrip in zergs, and condi cleave.What is Scourge used for in WvW?AoE boonrip in zergs, and condi cleave.

What was Reaper used for in PvE?selfish no-utility DPS.What is Scourge used for in PvE?selfish no-utility DPS.

Scourge is a 100% upgrade to reaper in every gamemode. Scourge offers more DPS, more utility, more boonhate, and more boon generation that Reaper does. And with reaper's degen being bumped up to 5%, you can't really even say that Reaper has better survivability either.

I would disagree, try doing the kinda direct damage with a Scourge. Also, Reaper really didnt have that much Boonhate anyway. I'd say they are going in the right direction with Reaper. Shroud decay defo needs to be checked, the 5% decay is simply too much.

As for the upgrade. Well to P2W. What new elite spec ISNT a flatout upgrade of HoT elites? None. They are ALL better. How else do you think Anet is going to sell them? sure wont be based on good balanced gameplay.

That's how you sell copies of your game.

@ArmageddonAsh.6430 said:I would disagree, try doing the kinda direct damage with a Scourge. Also, Reaper really didnt have that much Boonhate anyway. I'd say they are going in the right direction with Reaper. Shroud decay defo needs to be checked, the 5% decay is simply too much.

As for the upgrade. Well to P2W. What new elite spec ISNT a flatout upgrade of HoT elites? None. They are ALL better. How else do you think Anet is going to sell them? sure wont be based on good balanced gameplay.

wvw point of view of pre PoF condition reaper."nothing can save you" - axe 3 - well of corruption - spinal shivers - lesser spinal shivers (well tbh not many used spite just for the trait) - focus 5 - RS 2 with path of corruption - dagger 5and the boonhate in good squads/groups was already real (2 guards per group mandatory, just to be able to push). and yes in that regard scourge IS 100% upgrade to reaper, because everything except chill is better on scourge... + scourge got more fear, more sustain (barrier and a huge amount of condi cleanse for the group), and tactical positioning with sand swell (if somebody would finally use it accordingly).

i am probably a tryhard ... so i still try to run reaper here and there (power and condition alike) - but whatever i try, scourge perfoms better in any sense (easier access to skills, 2-4x more mobile fileds, more range, more spam, more damage, more everything)

@vicious.5683 said:That's how you sell copies of your game.

what s/he sad

I can't help but feel that if anet were to act on this (as they kind of did last balance patch), they'd be more likely to nerf scourge down to reaper level rather than buff reaper to scourge level. And this will leave everyone unhappy.

Well... at least for the necromancer the focus is on modifying how you play the profession... It's sad that it doesn't bring anything really new but let's face it, even if scourge do the same things than reaper, the gameplay is different. Same goes for the necromancer, the gameplay is different from reaper and scourge.

Now... After being forced into boonhate/condi-management for 5 years already we can still say that it's not a wanted support and that it lead the necromancer nowhere. But Anet decided that it was what the necrmancer had to do and push this to the very limit creating the scourge which have so much boon hate that all other profession hate him to the bone and that he almost broke the game...

Maybe next time anet will have learned and they will push the necromancer in an healthier direction...

@ArmageddonAsh.6430 said:I would disagree, try doing the kinda direct damage with a Scourge. Also, Reaper really didnt have that much Boonhate anyway. I'd say they are going in the right direction with Reaper. Shroud decay defo needs to be checked, the 5% decay is simply too much.

Direct damage is not a role. The role is damage dealer. It does not matter if that damage is condition or power, what does matter is results.

Also Reaper totally had access to plenty of boonhate, and that boonhate is one of major reasons reaper was cemented in both the HoT WvW meta and the sPvP tourney meta. Now if what you really meant to say "Reaper does not have that much boonhate compared to Scourge" then yes you'd be correct.

@Lahmia.2193 said:I can't help but feel that if anet were to act on this (as they kind of did last balance patch), they'd be more likely to nerf scourge down to reaper level rather than buff reaper to scourge level. And this will leave everyone unhappy.Only in PvE.Scourge's power level in PvP is beyond broken. It's massive area cleave, combined with massive area boonrip, and little to no telegraph. Scourge is singlehandedly holding three entire classes out of the meta (engi, ele, and revenant) in addition to hardcountering a slew of otherwise viable builds on other classes. (Reaper among these)

As of the most recent patch, Reaper would be competitive at a high level as a teamfighter in PvP, however it can't because there is this thing called scourge that both does Reaper's job better than Reaper, while also straight up hardcountering Reaper.

Maybe the OP is true, but that's not the point of elite specs anyways so it's not really relevant to begin with. I'm assuming you are making this point to illustrate the need for making some changes? Not a good tack. Elite specs aren't about doing something better than something else. They are about a different flavour of play; I would say the flavour you get from Scourge couldn't be any different than what you get from Reaper. The elite spec performance comparison angle simply isn't compelling to justify changes to them.

@ArmageddonAsh.6430 said:I would disagree, try doing the kinda direct damage with a Scourge. Also, Reaper really didnt have that much Boonhate anyway. I'd say they are going in the right direction with Reaper. Shroud decay defo needs to be checked, the 5% decay is simply too much.

As for the upgrade. Well to P2W. What new elite spec ISNT a flatout upgrade of HoT elites? None. They are ALL better. How else do you think Anet is going to sell them? sure wont be based on good balanced gameplay.

Chronomancer. Druid. Berserker. All of them are more important than their counter parts. Mirage and Soulbeast are good but Spellbreaker has 0 place in PvE.

@Obtena.7952 said:Maybe the OP is true, but that's not the point of elite specs anyways so it's not really relevant to begin with. I'm assuming you are making this point to illustrate the need for making some changes? Not a good tack. Elite specs aren't about doing something better than something else. They are about a different flavour of play; I would say the flavour you get from Scourge couldn't be any different than what you get from Reaper. The elite spec performance comparison angle simply isn't compelling to justify changes to them.

Scourge does not offer "a different flavor of play" Scourge is just upgraded Reaper. Scourge does not open up any new roles to us, or any new gameplay. We are still a teamfigher boonhate selfish DPS class, just as we where before.

You cannot have two elites of the same class performing the same role. Why? Because anytime you have two different methods to the same goal, one of the those methods is invariably better. And this is what has happened with Scourge. Scourge has completely replaced Reaper in all modes, because Scourge is flat better than reaper.

Scourge needs to be changed to exclusive support, Reaper should be the damage dealer, since Reaper was exclusively designed as a Damage Dealer.

PvPScourage replace condi reaper in teamfights with fb. But that doesnt mean it replaces power reaper role, since its slightly different and not ment to be main duo with fb in teamfights anyway. Ofc if you run bad power greatsword build you will do bad. At least for AT and ranked power reaper is completely fine and cant say scourage is 100% upgrade of it, its different.

lol salty people here are uninformedthe top EU necro plays reaper. reaper has a lot of strengths that set it apart from scourge

@Emapudapus.1307 said:PvPScourage replace condi reaper in teamfights with fb. But that doesnt mean it replaces power reaper role, since its slightly different and not ment to be main duo with fb in teamfights anyway. Ofc if you run bad power greatsword build you will do bad. At least for AT and ranked power reaper is completely fine and cant say scourage is 100% upgrade of it, its different.

Power Reaper doesn't have a different role. Power Reaper cannot do offnodes because it can't survive a thief, nor can it win a fight against the meta offnode classes.

In teamfights Power Reaper gets dunked on by Scourge.

@vicious.5683 said:That's how you sell copies of your game.

we all love to spend money to buy something that force us to play something we do not want to play right?

to be more clear, i was having LOT OF fun and i was very happy and competitive with my reaper, but now to be able to be competitive i am forced to play the scourge, and this is bad beacouse i have spent money to buy a game which i was planning to enjoy with my reaper, while now i am not, so what do we do? may i get a refund?

Humorous that I've been saying this since PoF release and all I've gotten was rude/dismissive comments in return.

If scourge didn't exist I would still be playing reaper in wvw. And I refuse to play scourge because I don't like being pigeonholed into staff/soul reaping, probably the most boring thing to play in game at the moment.

reaper has better CC and utility in form of cone aoe pull. also unblockable buff in form of shout and the power build is stronger on reaper than on scourge. condi reaper has same benchmark as condi scourge + condi reaper is stronger when paired with ele (ice bow is stronger in reaper's hands even more than in ele's) + in fractals reaper can spam ettin gunk consumable for chill/blind procs for a huge dps boost. reaper also has better life force regen, blind field (which corrupts boons), a leap/gap closer and better survivability in form of rise, infusing terror (oh and this also gives stability without the need of taking utility skill and its 3 stacks) and shroud (as weak as this "defense" is, we're comparing specs of the worst class in the game). basically only good thing on scourge is F2.

@Sublimatio.6981 said:reaper has better CC and utility in form of cone aoe pull. also unblockable buff in form of shout and the power build is stronger on reaper than on scourge. condi reaper has same benchmark as condi scourge + condi reaper is stronger when paired with ele (ice bow is stronger in reaper's hands even more than in ele's) + in fractals reaper can spam ettin gunk consumable for chill/blind procs for a huge dps boost. reaper also has better life force regen, blind field (which corrupts boons), a leap/gap closer and better survivability in form of rise, infusing terror (oh and this also gives stability without the need of taking utility skill and its 3 stacks) and shroud (as weak as this "defense" is, we're comparing specs of the worst class in the game). basically only good thing on scourge is F2.

what game do you play mate?

@Sublimatio.6981 said:reaper has better CC and utility in form of cone aoe pull. also unblockable buff in form of shout and the power build is stronger on reaper than on scourge. condi reaper has same benchmark as condi scourge + condi reaper is stronger when paired with ele (ice bow is stronger in reaper's hands even more than in ele's) + in fractals reaper can spam ettin gunk consumable for chill/blind procs for a huge dps boost. reaper also has better life force regen, blind field (which corrupts boons), a leap/gap closer and better survivability in form of rise, infusing terror (oh and this also gives stability without the need of taking utility skill and its 3 stacks) and shroud (as weak as this "defense" is, we're comparing specs of the worst class in the game). basically only good thing on scourge is F2.

We can take any spec in the game and make a impressive sounding list of unique capabilities. That does not make a spec competitive.

Yes there are some specific things that reaper has over scourge, however Reaper raw power level is straight up worse, and in the vast majority of situations Reaper is completely outperformed by scourge. F2 Path of Corruption spam > Nightfall and all the other shouts put together.

It also doesn't help that Scourge totally hardcounters Reaper in PvP and WvW, which means that any group looking for a boonrip role will take scourge as taking a reaper is far too risky.

I'll quote @Chaith.8256 on the subject, since ya'll won't take my word for it.

@Chaith.8256 said:Every xpac, Necromancer evolves into doing more damage, and in a bigger radius. It's always the exact same role - teamfight carry and boon rip, accompanied by support.

It'll get nerfed more in 3 months, I agree, but not enough to make Scrapper, Herald, Reaper, and especially not Engi good, Here is why: ArenaNet will attempt to balance it, but refuse to nerf it to the ground and build it back in another healthier role. As long as it's not nerfed into the ground, Scourge will be in every game and keep those other classes in the trashcan. It's design is a hard counter to many things, even without power creep

@Crinn.7864 said:...It also doesn't help that Scourge totally hardcounters Reaper in PvP and WvW, which means that any group looking for a boonrip role will take scourge as taking a reaper is far too risky.

Why not take both, reaper and scourage? As i said power reaper and scourage shouldnt fight for same spot in team, they are different. Its also not as bad as you are trying to make it sound, but again, if you have bad build you will do bad.

@Emapudapus.1307 said:

@Crinn.7864 said:...It also doesn't help that Scourge totally hardcounters Reaper in PvP and WvW, which means that any group looking for a boonrip role will take scourge as taking a reaper is far too risky.

Tell me then what you would have the reaper doing?

Reaper cannot teamfight if the other team fields a Scourge. This leaves 2 roles, the +1 roamer, or offnode 1v1. Reaper cannot be the +1 guy because the mobility doesn't exist, and Reaper is too vulnerable to thief +1s to be the offnode guy, not to mention Reaper loses all 1v1 matchups against all common offnode classes. (Mirage, Druid, Rifle Holosmith)

And if you are planning on putting both a Scourge and Reaper into a teamfight together, you would just be better off with 2 scourges.

Some people are only now realizing and rationalizing, in 2012+5, that every class in GW2 is beyond bloated with a burning trash pile of DPS "builds" and false options? This has been a problem since launch which was only irreversibly exacerbated with the specialization system.

Except for the fact that Reaper has one thing Scourge does not, I have access to dozens of Great Sword skins and I don't like condition builds one bit out side of playing an Affliction Warlock or a Shadow Priest in WoW.

As soon as weapons get untethered from Elite Specs then I will try other offerings.

@Justine.6351 said:Humorous that I've been saying this since PoF release and all I've gotten was rude/dismissive comments in return.

If scourge didn't exist I would still be playing reaper in wvw. And I refuse to play scourge because I don't like being pigeonholed into staff/soul reaping, probably the most boring thing to play in game at the moment.

I was going to say it as well but I get so sick of my own dissatisfaction that I have to just let some things go unsaid (at least until i can stomach making another qq thread)The downvotes wouldn't really bother me however.

Agreed..I'm getting tired of writing negative crap so im just reading...mostly, content seeing others have the same thoughts. Its almost like we could all template these issues and lay them down in the next expansions with minor alterations. This is how nonsensical this 'balancing' has become. To continue the - nerf something if you buff another is an exasperating thing to live through from 2012 to now. Utter crud.

@Crinn.7864 said:Power Reaper doesn't have a different role. Power Reaper cannot do offnodes because it can't survive a thief, nor can it win a fight against the meta offnode classes.Nonsense! 1 out of 10 thieves beats me on marauder power reaper. On paladin amulet it's more like 1 out of 20. And these few thieves might simply be better players or I am having a bad day.

@Crinn.7864 said:not to mention Reaper loses all 1v1 matchups against all common offnode classes. (Mirage, Druid, Rifle Holosmith)I laughed hard when you said rifle holosmith. Even in WvW (where the holo deals a ton more damage) I lose against a rifle holo maybe.... let me guess... once a month or so.

Mirage (condi): depends on my setup (running my standard build I might lose)Mirage (power): usually no big dealDruid: depends on LOS (easy on node, since he can't kite)

And I am still waiting for the scourge that hardcounters me in pvp (no trailblazer). Did not find him yet.