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Deadeye rifle feedback after 120 games [PvP]


Urejt.5648

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First of all it must be said. Deadeye rifle is trash in pvp, even when mastered. I reached platinium, but it is no achivment since there are really weak players in 1600 rating range. It is high time i give up playing this weak spec. Since feedback can not stop here i will tell you what is the biggest problem.

Main problems with rifle deadeye is the value of traits and weak value of rifle skills. 4 out of 6 deadeye trait commonly used in pvp are very weak value even tho they are best in slot.*Revealed malice gives only 3% dmg increase in best case scenario.

  • Renewing gaze never triggers because deadeye is not often able to kill enemy. 3 seconds of regeneration is a bad joke from game designer. Did they add it symbolicly?
  • Silent scope is not that good, it sohuld probably be workihng without this trait. kneeling does not give good pvp experience since gw2 pvp is all about mobility
  • perfectionist never triggers during real fight. Wonder why anet decided that its good to gave many boons after 25 seconds of fight. Fights with thief do not last very long. Useless trait.

Rifle skills are also a problem:

  • Autoatack is very weak when compered to other ranged weapons. I understand ranged weapon has to be much weaker than melee weapons but rifle for deadeye is 4 times weaker than dagger autoatack.
  • rifle 2 and 3 is ok
  • rifle 4 (death's retreat) is very poor value for 5 initiative. It is bad skill for condi removal and bad skill for mobility. Anet tried to make it good at everyting, now it sucks to use. I would rather have 1000 range teleport that 600 with 1 condi removal. Also lower cost to 4.
  • rifle 4 kneel (death's judgment)- bad skill, huge risk, small reward when compered to rifle 3 kneel. Deals extra dmg only to marked target.

Mark mechanic aint that bad. malice generation is too low to reach maximum so traits are poor value. Malice should increase dmg on every target, not only marked since pvp forces a lot of target change. Stolen items are very weak because malice generation is very slow. It is annoying that stolen skills work only on targeted player.

PSRifle sneak atacks are completly trash, they never hit

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Problem with DE in general is that you can't carry games, you depend entirely on your team making it really difficult to win.With daredevil you can still change the match plusing fights and decaps, with sd core you can 1v1 most the classes and carry at far, with DE the best you can do is down someone really fast before you get killed and that's it.

I was like 1750 with DE with 20 matches then I lost a lot and I was like 1620, I was there for about 3 days. The worst experience I've ever had with this game my win ratio is almost 50% because I only played DE even in matches where I was useless af and if you add bots/trolls/stacked teams it was disgusting, so DE only run is impossible I had to switch to sd core in some matches to get back to plat 3 because otherwise is impossible.

Don't get me wrong surprisingly there are a few good matches for DE where you can get fast kills and do fine but most of the time is just get the kill quick or you are dead.

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Every pew pew class when finishing the ranged skills can engage in melee for defense/escape. For example LB ranger can swap to sword for evade, Hammer rev swap to staff, etc. With Deadeye you can swap to sword/dagger and what? Initiative is the same if you already used it with the rifle you are done. Deadeye should have some initiative refill on weapon swap as base feature. But something better than Quick Pockets.Also remove from kneel is too slow, should just jump for instant gtfo, by the time you weapon withdraw or rifle 5 you are already dead, weapon swap is fast but you force cd

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In high-ranked sPvP, Rifle will never be viable unless you are being carried. By any attentive player, the Deadeye will be shutdown for most of the match, simply because it takes way too long for Deadeye's to be able to do proper damage in order to pressure opponents. By the time the Deadeye is setup in a place where he won't get instantly wrecked, he's already cost the team precious time, time that any core or DD thief could've spent being actually useful.

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@cyberwolf.5830 said:Every pew pew class when finishing the ranged skills can engage in melee for defense/escape. For example LB ranger can swap to sword for evade, Hammer rev swap to staff, etc. With Deadeye you can swap to sword/dagger and what? Initiative is the same if you already used it with the rifle you are done. Deadeye should have some initiative refill on weapon swap as base feature. But something better than Quick Pockets.Also remove from kneel is too slow, should just jump for instant gtfo, by the time you weapon withdraw or rifle 5 you are already dead, weapon swap is fast but you force cd

go D/P? I seem to have better luck with it when running rifle.

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@cyberwolf.5830 said:Every pew pew class when finishing the ranged skills can engage in melee for defense/escape. For example LB ranger can swap to sword for evade, Hammer rev swap to staff, etc. With Deadeye you can swap to sword/dagger and what? Initiative is the same if you already used it with the rifle you are done. Deadeye should have some initiative refill on weapon swap as base feature. But something better than Quick Pockets.Also remove from kneel is too slow, should just jump for instant gtfo, by the time you weapon withdraw or rifle 5 you are already dead, weapon swap is fast but you force cd

Core Thief should have initiative refill when swapping weapons. As it is, I find Initiative generally makes me slower rather than faster when compared to my other characters.Really, I would prefer there just being two Initiative bars, one for each weapon set, and the set that isn't active regains Initiative only half as fast as the active one. That rewards skirmish play and doesn't make it suicide to lean in when you have an opportunity. On top of that, weapon swap for Thief should really have no cooldown at all, instead costing a solid number of initiative pips from whichever weapon you're putting away, to penalize spamming it back and forth without preventing you doing it when you need to, improving your agility in combat without making you more powerful in an objective sense.

Anyway it's a core Thief design problem.

Edit: oh and I almost forgot.Quick pockets should be changed to reduce the Initiative cost of swapping, so you suffer less from swapping back and forth. I was thinking 5 as a cost to swap and 2 with Quick Pockets, with the caveat that it can still be used if you are too low on Initiative, so that if you're mixing it up with sword/dagger and you run out of juice entirely, switching to pistol/pistol to go gunslinger for a bit should be effectively "free" but switching back rapidly should be expensive.If that seems too complex, you can just have Quick Pockets make the background Initiative bar for the other weapon set regenerate at normal speed instead of half speed or a third speed. Simpler, though it doesn't encourage the Thief to play an aggressive skirmish game as much.

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@Slowmelt.8547 said:

@cyberwolf.5830 said:Every pew pew class when finishing the ranged skills can engage in melee for defense/escape. For example LB ranger can swap to sword for evade, Hammer rev swap to staff, etc. With Deadeye you can swap to sword/dagger and what? Initiative is the same if you already used it with the rifle you are done. Deadeye should have some initiative refill on weapon swap as base feature. But something better than Quick Pockets.Also remove from kneel is too slow, should just jump for instant gtfo, by the time you weapon withdraw or rifle 5 you are already dead, weapon swap is fast but you force cd

Core Thief should have initiative refill when swapping weapons. As it is, I find Initiative generally makes me slower rather than faster when compared to my other characters.

That would be broken.

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@Sobx.1758 said:

@Slowmelt.8547 said:

@cyberwolf.5830 said:Every pew pew class when finishing the ranged skills can engage in melee for defense/escape. For example LB ranger can swap to sword for evade, Hammer rev swap to staff, etc. With Deadeye you can swap to sword/dagger and what? Initiative is the same if you already used it with the rifle you are done. Deadeye should have some initiative refill on weapon swap as base feature. But something better than Quick Pockets.Also remove from kneel is too slow, should just jump for instant gtfo, by the time you weapon withdraw or rifle 5 you are already dead, weapon swap is fast but you force cd

Core Thief should have initiative refill when swapping weapons. As it is, I find Initiative generally makes me slower rather than faster when compared to my other characters.

That would be broken.

It's broken now. Initiative makes you slower, not faster. Other classes can use their cooldowns and then switch weapons and repeat. A thief uses their Initiative and then... nothing. You dance around and have a 50-50 chance of dying depending on how smart the other player is or what fight you're in.Switching it up so that Thief can actually sustain just a bit instead of being forced into running away forever is a really easy way to make the class feel better. For the aggressive DPS type of class, we sure do spend a lot of time running away and not doing any real damage, and just buffing Thief auto attacks is not a good fix for that problem, no matter how many people suggest it.

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My main issue with rifle, and I really want to like it as a concept, is that Death's Judgment will never be worth spending initiative on as long as it is not guaranteed to hit the marked target, since it basically does no damage to non-marked targets now. The best change would be to make it so DJ pierces up to four targets on the way to its marked target, only doing base damage to pierced targets and doing full damage to only the marked one. This one change could potentially make the skill actually worth using.

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@Sojourner.4621 said:My main issue with rifle, and I really want to like it as a concept, is that Death's Judgment will never be worth spending initiative on as long as it is not guaranteed to hit the marked target, since it basically does no damage to non-marked targets now. The best change would be to make it so DJ pierces up to four targets on the way to its marked target, only doing base damage to pierced targets and doing full damage to only the marked one. This one change could potentially make the skill actually worth using.

All of the skills should pierce, or at least have the option of having a trait to make them pierce like Rangers. There are so many bodies and AI in this game, the real thing holding rifle back is not being able to hit your target even though it is in range, not dodging, not blocking/reflecting, and not invulnerable.

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@Slowmelt.8547 said:

@Sobx.1758 said:

@Slowmelt.8547 said:

@cyberwolf.5830 said:Every pew pew class when finishing the ranged skills can engage in melee for defense/escape. For example LB ranger can swap to sword for evade, Hammer rev swap to staff, etc. With Deadeye you can swap to sword/dagger and what? Initiative is the same if you already used it with the rifle you are done. Deadeye should have some initiative refill on weapon swap as base feature. But something better than Quick Pockets.Also remove from kneel is too slow, should just jump for instant gtfo, by the time you weapon withdraw or rifle 5 you are already dead, weapon swap is fast but you force cd

Core Thief should have initiative refill when swapping weapons. As it is, I find Initiative generally makes me slower rather than faster when compared to my other characters.

That would be broken.

It's broken now. Initiative makes you slower, not faster. Other classes can use their cooldowns and then switch weapons and repeat. A thief uses their Initiative and then... nothing. You dance around and have a 50-50 chance of dying depending on how smart the other player is or what fight you're in.Switching it up so that Thief can actually sustain just a bit instead of being forced into running away forever is a really easy way to make the class feel better. For the aggressive DPS type of class, we sure do spend a lot of time running away and not doing any real damage, and just buffing Thief auto attacks is not a good fix for that problem, no matter how many people suggest it.

People playing other classes disagree from my experience. Go to pvp/wvw forums, there is always a spot crying about thieves having no CDs and ini not being effective CD. As long as such complains exist, Anet won't change anything.

I personally think issue is not even ini refill but amount of default ini. You have to pick trickery in competitive mode, there is no way around it.

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@Slowmelt.8547 said:

@Sobx.1758 said:

@Slowmelt.8547 said:

@cyberwolf.5830 said:Every pew pew class when finishing the ranged skills can engage in melee for defense/escape. For example LB ranger can swap to sword for evade, Hammer rev swap to staff, etc. With Deadeye you can swap to sword/dagger and what? Initiative is the same if you already used it with the rifle you are done. Deadeye should have some initiative refill on weapon swap as base feature. But something better than Quick Pockets.Also remove from kneel is too slow, should just jump for instant gtfo, by the time you weapon withdraw or rifle 5 you are already dead, weapon swap is fast but you force cd

Core Thief should have initiative refill when swapping weapons. As it is, I find Initiative generally makes me slower rather than faster when compared to my other characters.

That would be broken.

It's broken now. Initiative makes you slower, not faster. Other classes can use their cooldowns and then switch weapons and repeat. A thief uses their Initiative and then... nothing. You dance around and have a 50-50 chance of dying depending on how smart the other player is or what fight you're in.

Initiative makes your skills spammable, which gives you more upfront damage (and restricts your combos less than skills with cds), so it does make you faster burst-wise. Having possibility to use one set of weapons, spam out your initiative and then change to second -same or similar- set of weapons just so you can spam everything again would be broken and that's a fact. Do I want buffs for the class I play? Yes, why not. But overdoing it isn't the way to go.Also initiative regen rate isn't as slow as you seem to suggest.

Switching it up so that Thief can actually sustain just a bit instead of being forced into running away forever is a really easy way to make the class feel better.Or maybe you just want to play a warrior.

@Sojourner.4621 said:My main issue with rifle, and I really want to like it as a concept, is that Death's Judgment will never be worth spending initiative on as long as it is not guaranteed to hit the marked target, since it basically does no damage to non-marked targets now. The best change would be to make it so DJ pierces up to four targets on the way to its marked target, only doing base damage to pierced targets and doing full damage to only the marked one. This one change could potentially make the skill actually worth using.

True, they implemented this change because people cried about DEs marking creatures in WvW and then using buffed DJ on players, but imo that was just a nail in the coffin for DE (and no, I wasn't doing it), pretty much useless in group pvp setup.

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@Slowmelt.8547 said:Core Thief should have initiative refill when swapping weapons. As it is, I find Initiative generally makes me slower rather than faster when compared to my other characters.Really, I would prefer there just being two Initiative bars, one for each weapon set, and the set that isn't active regains Initiative only half as fast as the active one. That rewards skirmish play and doesn't make it suicide to lean in when you have an opportunity. On top of that, weapon swap for Thief should really have no cooldown at all, instead costing a solid number of initiative pips from whichever weapon you're putting away, to penalize spamming it back and forth without preventing you doing it when you need to, improving your agility in combat without making you more powerful in an objective sense.

Anyway it's a core Thief design problem.

I think I love you. I've been saying this for years!Either remove the weapon-swap delay, refill the initiative pool, or have separate pools for each weapon set. Of course, I would say only one should happen.No need for swapping weapons to cost initiative, though. Just replace the Quick Pockets trait with something more useful.

@Sobx.1758 said:Initiative makes your skills spammable, which gives you more upfront damage (and restricts your combos less than skills with cds), so it does make you faster burst-wise. Having possibility to use one set of weapons, spam out your initiative and then change to second -same or similar- set of weapons just so you can spam everything again would be broken and that's a fact. Do I want buffs for the class I play? Yes, why not. But overdoing it isn't the way to go.

Yes, skills are spammable due to the initiative system, and that makes them more difficult to balance. However, it's both unfair and illogical that the Thief was made to be unique, but must follow the same rules as the other professions.

There is only one initiative pool. However, there are two weapon sets. They share the same pool. So why is there any need to lock a Thief into a weapon set for 10 seconds? The simplest way to solve this is just to remove the weapon-swap delay on the Thief. Both weapons still share the same initiative pool, and because of that, the Thief would be allowed to use its limited initiative how it sees fit. It would not allow the skills to be spammed any more than they already are. It would only allow more tactical options. In fact, it would probably lessen the spam of certain skills because it opens up new possibilities.

It would definitely help with the Thief's natural hit-and-run capabilities, being able to choose exactly when to engage, disengage, and re-engage. I don't know about you, but I hate getting stuck in "run away mode" for 10 seconds when I only need to do so for 3 seconds. And being able to initially engage at range before jumping into melee without giving up the ability to run away at a moment's notice would be nice.

While I'm thinking about the benefits it would give with the Shortbow, a Sword Thief would be able to make a lot of use with it, using Infiltrator's Strike/Return in conjunction with another weapon set. Or an odd combo like P/D and D/P could hop in and out of melee with Shadow Shot and Shadow Strike, possibly giving some new life to a power/condi hybrid.

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There is only one initiative pool. However, there are two weapon sets. They share the same pool. So why is there any need to lock a Thief into a weapon set for 10 seconds? The simplest way to solve this is just to remove the weapon-swap delay on the Thief. Both weapons still share the same initiative pool, and because of that, the Thief would be allowed to use its limited initiative how it sees fit. It would not allow the skills to be spammed any more than they already are. It would only allow more tactical options. In fact, it would probably lessen the spam of certain skills because it opens up new possibilities.

It would definitely help with the Thief's natural hit-and-run capabilities, being able to choose exactly when to engage, disengage, and re-engage. I don't know about you, but I hate getting stuck in "run away mode" for 10 seconds when I only need to do so for 3 seconds. And being able to initially engage at range before jumping into melee without giving up the ability to run away at a moment's notice would be nice.

Yup, that probably would be ok.

But what he said about refilling the initiative on weapon swap (or even just double initiative bars) should just be off the table. :D

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@Sobx.1758 said:But what he said about refilling the initiative on weapon swap (or even just double initiative bars) should just be off the table. :D

Indeed, having instant weapon-swap with initiative refill would be quite over the top, haha, but quite amusing to think about :p

If the 10-second weapon-swap delay stays, I could more understand an initiative refill, even if it's only partial. Maybe 5 or 6 initiative on weapon-swap, though... to give just enough for an emergency Infiltrator's Arrow to escape. Hmm, if nothing else, at least up the initiative gain of Quick Pockets to 6 to make it worth choosing :)

Alas, just thinking about the instant weapon-swap makes my mouth water. Me wants it bad!!!

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@Cynz.9437 said:

@Slowmelt.8547 said:

@Sobx.1758 said:

@Slowmelt.8547 said:

@cyberwolf.5830 said:Every pew pew class when finishing the ranged skills can engage in melee for defense/escape. For example LB ranger can swap to sword for evade, Hammer rev swap to staff, etc. With Deadeye you can swap to sword/dagger and what? Initiative is the same if you already used it with the rifle you are done. Deadeye should have some initiative refill on weapon swap as base feature. But something better than Quick Pockets.Also remove from kneel is too slow, should just jump for instant gtfo, by the time you weapon withdraw or rifle 5 you are already dead, weapon swap is fast but you force cd

Core Thief should have initiative refill when swapping weapons. As it is, I find Initiative generally makes me slower rather than faster when compared to my other characters.

That would be broken.

It's broken now. Initiative makes you slower, not faster. Other classes can use their cooldowns and then switch weapons and repeat. A thief uses their Initiative and then... nothing. You dance around and have a 50-50 chance of dying depending on how smart the other player is or what fight you're in.Switching it up so that Thief can actually sustain just a bit instead of being forced into running away forever is a really easy way to make the class feel better. For the aggressive DPS type of class, we sure do spend a lot of time running away and not doing any real damage, and just buffing Thief auto attacks is not a good fix for that problem, no matter how many people suggest it.

People playing other classes disagree from my experience. Go to pvp/wvw forums, there is always a spot crying about thieves having no CDs and ini not being effective CD. As long as such complains exist, Anet won't change anything.

I personally think issue is not even ini refill but amount of default ini. You have to pick trickery in competitive mode, there is no way around it.

That's why I think 10 or 12 initiative and a swapping bar would be nice. It's not going to massively expand your ability to burst but it'd greatly improve your ability to handle sustained fights for a length of time.

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@Urejt.5648 said:First of all it must be said. Deadeye rifle is trash in pvp, even when mastered. I reached platinium, but it is no achivment since there are really weak players in 1600 rating range. It is high time i give up playing this weak spec. Since feedback can not stop here i will tell you what is the biggest problem.

Main problems with rifle deadeye is the value of traits and weak value of rifle skills. 4 out of 6 deadeye trait commonly used in pvp are very weak value even tho they are best in slot.*Revealed malice gives only 3% dmg increase in best case scenario.

  • Renewing gaze never triggers because deadeye is not often able to kill enemy. 3 seconds of regeneration is a bad joke from game designer. Did they add it symbolicly?
  • Silent scope is not that good, it sohuld probably be workihng without this trait. kneeling does not give good pvp experience since gw2 pvp is all about mobility
  • perfectionist never triggers during real fight. Wonder why anet decided that its good to gave many boons after 25 seconds of fight. Fights with thief do not last very long. Useless trait.

Rifle skills are also a problem:

  • Autoatack is very weak when compered to other ranged weapons. I understand ranged weapon has to be much weaker than melee weapons but rifle for deadeye is 4 times weaker than dagger autoatack.
  • rifle 2 and 3 is ok
  • rifle 4 (death's retreat) is very poor value for 5 initiative. It is bad skill for condi removal and bad skill for mobility. Anet tried to make it good at everyting, now it sucks to use. I would rather have 1000 range teleport that 600 with 1 condi removal. Also lower cost to 4.
  • rifle 4 kneel (death's judgment)- bad skill, huge risk, small reward when compered to rifle 3 kneel. Deals extra dmg only to marked target.

Mark mechanic aint that bad. malice generation is too low to reach maximum so traits are poor value. Malice should increase dmg on every target, not only marked since pvp forces a lot of target change. Stolen items are very weak because malice generation is very slow. It is annoying that stolen skills work only on targeted player.

PSRifle sneak atacks are completly trash, they never hit

The same is true to an even further degree in PvE which is full of mobs that run up to eat your face, lots of shit on the ground you have to move out of, lots of situations that require AoE, etc..

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I have over 120 games of pure DE now. Made it to plat. Here's my two cents:

  1. Sniper's cover is integrated with kneel.
  2. Make Quick Pockets also reduce weapon swap by 33%.
  3. Not losing all malice when marking the same target in a row. Make it decay at a greater rate after mark is over. Marking the same target stops the decay and triggers its regeneration.
  4. Jumping breaks kneel. Kneels allows you to move 200 units without breaking for re-positioning.
  5. Help DE to be stronger as a ranged/gunslinger class by giving edge to P/P builds. Something like "Projectiles deal increased dmg from 500 units away or more". Or "Hitting a foe from range on the side or the back will make your bullet ricochet once".
  6. Malice also affects condition damage.
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From my experience (mostly going against rifle Deadeyes more than actually playing one), I agree with a lot of the OP's suggestions, but it's still a very slow spec from a mobility standpoint. I think it would actually do well to get a movement speed increase since that's the type of boost that helps out of combat speed more than in combat.

Also, the weapon just overall feels initiative heavy, even without using Death's Retreat.

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