Why everyone is so concerned about Meta and effectiveness in PvE?

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Every MMO I've experienced does this. The "meta" for each class trickles down and infects the entire game. Whether or not people need that meta build for 95% of the game isn't a factor. A lot of the time those advocating the meta aren't doing the meta content, never will do that content, and just want to mouth off in chat or dismiss others for not knowing how to play.

It's a bandwagon and they get to ride it.

People are easy to manipulate weaklings.

In my experience, the conversations here on the forums (and reddit) are conducted with a significantly small sampling of the entire GW2 user base. Most players that I hang out with in-game have no idea what meta is and don't really care to aspire to that level of play. In my opinion, there are way more casual players than elites, but it is the latter who has the louder voice on the forums/reddit. The casuals (again, my opinion) are too busy playing the game or otherwise occupied with other real life things to bother with coming to the forums/reddit.As to your point, OP, I also wish that some content weren't "locked" behind such meta-inspired thoughts; however, there isn't anything stopping me from creating my own group to run raids/fractals. I just choose not to do so.

I understand the concern, and I also wish people would just sit with a cup a good tea and enjoy the ride. Yet...I can see several reasons the "meta" gets that much favor :

• Some hard encounters have a timer, and players want to play it safe ;
• People are jaded/bored and don't want to bother spending too much time with fights, so they pick the build that allows them to finish fights as quick as possible ;
• In most open-PvE cases, sustain and support are worthless because you can't afford a fight to drag. Some mobs have an insane HP pool, and hit really hard, nullifying all your investment in such stats and skills. This is why most specs have been damage oriented, with the highest damage output possible : just to play it safe.

I don't agree with everything, nor do I "run full zerk+scholar", but these are the ones I hear the most.

Everyone isn't. Don't believe everything you read. I'm firmly convinced 80% of the game's population doesn't know what a meta build is.

Long repetitive grinds cause people to want to seek a solution to doing it faster, and also see any obstructions as harming them.

And also, people don't want to think that others aren't pulling their own weight and thus leeching. However, the appraisal is often flawed and self-serving.

Forum groupthink/hivemind is incredibly strong.

@Halan.8951It's a bit more complicated than that. What you probably seen were either people doing easy content (where classes do not matter at all because anything goes), or players already doing good in a more difficult content.The problem is, that these compositions do matter. There can be a visible difference in effectivness between those. It's okay if you are well past the required threshold for an encounter, but what if you are very close to that threshold? In such a case going with some "less-meta" approach can be a difference between success and a failure. This is most important not for the highest tier players, but for those that are just learning.Trust me, going with "anything goes" casual approach can make the learning process for raids (as the most visible example, because nobody really cares about what you use in open world on dungeons nowadays) much, much harder.

Its a way for highly insecure people to manufacture and exert authority over others.

@Halan.8951 said:

After reading about group compositions and PoF "farming", decided to ask a question.

I've been playing GW2 on and off for a long time, and only fully switched to it after PoF announcement.Before that I played WoW for years on medium to high lvl. Heroic raids with some bosses on Mythic, and M+ dungeons at reasonably high lvl (it's kinda like Fractal scaling, but also a timed run).

So what puzzles me, despite that game being less casual and having end-game power progression (getting ascended armor is NOTHING compared to Artifact Power grind and hoping for titan-forged gear), only highest-lvl raiders like those going for world-first kills actually did class stacking. Most people just played what classes they liked. Of course there was/is a damage disparity, and different classes shine in different situations, but still ALL classes in ALL specs did ALL content, just not world firsts.

I don't remember class/spec completely excluded from raids or dungeons for years in that game (such problems existed in Classic and BC). I rarely seen someone denied from content on basis of playing a perceived weak class, mostly on personal performance or gear lvl. Yet reading this forum I see this every day, and it made me not want to even attempt harder content, knowing that such ideas are very prevalent among players.

tldr: Why such emphasis on being super-optimized in an ultimately very casual game? Why groups are so rigid in class selection? And why ruin the game for others with demands, and create endless frustration on forums?

If it's about gold per hour, and not content completion, isn't working and then buying gems a better use of your time? So you can actually do enjoyable content in a game, instead of worrying about being "effective". 40g per hour is about 140 gems at current exchange rate, and compared to buying 800/1600 gems it's about 1.75$ per hour.

Are we talking about the same WoW where there is/was a clear best in slot composition for record mythic+ runs? Tell me, how many DK tanks were there at launch of Legion in high end mythic+ groups? How many were warriors?

You are essentially comparing mid-level encounters in WoW which people start outgearing very fast to a game where you can't outgear content.

That's just it. In WoW, eventually classes matter less since everyone dedicated enough will outgear the content severely enough while Blizzard nerfs its difficulty. 3 months into an expansion class matters little. Can't do that in GW2.

EDIT: I do have to agree on the farming though, but then again, if people want to maximize their time farming, why not?

WoW is a different type of game. It's a generic tank and spank mmo where your gears do 90% of the job. It doesn't really matter how you play in WoW as long as you have gears that out level the content you're playing.

GW2 is not the same, the only thing we outgear is -80 content, and even then, we're scaled down. So the skill, traits, and stats we use are what give us an edge over enemies. Then you can maximize even further with a good skill rotation and group composition.

From experience I don't think the majority of people use meta builds. And I think the majority that do use meta, only do so as a guideline or template then change a few things around to feel more comfortable and don't follow skill rotation. Unless they're in a speed run group for dungeons, fractal, or raid.

Depends on who you ask. Some people look at it because meta is the fastest way to get through content they’ve had to do so many times. Some look at it to see what their class specializes in or how it should be played, and some look at it to see what is currently broken.

I mean, if your class isn’t that great at condi damage, why gear it out for that? Or if it has no group healing or sustain, why gear it for such? You’d just be wasting your time and resources.

I find the argument of 'wasting time' to support the meta approach nonsensical. I mean, the idea that somehow, it's not enough to succeed in the game, you have to do it as fast as you can as well ... the justification for that thinking AND it's extension in having people tell others how they should play the game; this goes against every fiber of my own game playing enjoyment. The 'time' argument works for some games where enrage times are meant to bring failure to a team in a 'fun' way, but not here.

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@Astralporing.1957 said:

The problem is, that these compositions do matter. There can be a visible difference in effectivness between those. It's okay if you are well past the required threshold for an encounter, but what if you are very close to that threshold? In such a case going with some "less-meta" approach can be a difference between success and a failure. This is most important not for the highest tier players, but for those that are just learning.

The main problem is that the arrow doesn't point the direction you think it does. If you are on the threshold, compositions that are some combination of 'more familiar' and 'less demanding' is going to pay off more quickly.

For a variety of reasons 'meta' compositions are built on a foundation containing many single points of failure, with a DPS contingent chosen to maximize performance when nothing goes wrong. That is an idiotic set of parameters to optimize around if you're a group on the margin.

@TheLastNobody.8319 said:I mean, if your class isn’t that great at condi damage, why gear it out for that? Or if it has no group healing or sustain, why gear it for such? You’d just be wasting your time and resources.

On this topic, I can say that, for some people, it also comes down to aesthetical/thematic satisfaction. For example, on my Mesmer, I wanted to be able to dual wield swords; sort of fill that "flashy duelist" theme that they're capable of doing. However, for the longest time, it was impossible for me to justify doing that in endgame content because they didn't have the numbers that people wanted, so I was basically just relegated to chronoing for a long time. Funnily enough, after the S3 Ep.6 balance patch, I can actually do this in endgame content and have evidence of its success now, because of the buffs they received in their traits. Power Mesmer is actually capable of hitting 30k dps now, although it can't really go beyond that, but their "rotation" is basically nonexistant: it all relies on their Phants staying up, with the player just pressing Sword 2 and Torch 4 whenever they come off CD, and then just autoing. It's basically the easiest damage rotation in the game, thus making it extremely consistent during raid bosses, even though it usually ends up camping on 29k before being able to hit 30k half way through the fight. With it, you basically never lose more than 2k due to dealing with boss mechanics since Phants are basically 90% of your damage source (as long as you stay with the leash radius of your phants).

Before it was viable though (read: not meta, but viable), I also considered wanting to try the same on Revenant, but quickly found out their damage was gutted early on in HoT. A lot of these problems come down to how, in this game, your "power" is so tied down to what weapon you're wielding. I've never liked that aspect of it; it's too limiting.

I'm absolutely not sure how GW2 raid and fractal difficulty compares to WoW diffuculty. Do you need same lvl of optimization for Forsaken Thicket like for Mythic Tomb of Sargeras? If no, then any class goes.

GW2 raids are a joke, most of the bosses (supposedly designed for 10 man groups) have been completed by groups using 10 of one class (done with multiple classes), people 4-6 manning the raids and I think 2 bosses were even soloed by a condi thief, which makes all the meta nonsense even more funny, you can complete the raids in this game with nearly any composition. (and remember there is no out-gearing or out-leveling raids in this game, so this is literally the laughably termed "end game" raids)

I wonder what people think when they see me. Wandering around in the overworld, I see a lot of poorly built classes slowly plinking away at enemies using their ranged weapons. Half of their fight is spent running away from the scary enemies, and that is a LOT of time to take for every single mob on the map. Meanwhile, I'm running around in full zerk or full vipers, laying waste to the world like a one-man Searing. Very often I'll walk up to these enemies that is being plinked to death and kill its entire group in 2 seconds, all within view of the other player. What goes through that person's mind when they see somebody effortlessly mow down enemies that they take forever to defeat? Are they in awe over how somebody can do incomprehensible amounts of damage? Do they constantly have to reassure themselves that in a real fight they would be the winner? Does the thought never come to their mind?

It is a mistake to think that PVE class balance is solely a social pressure. The meta comps are a product of the tools that each class has available, so they represent to a large degree how well that class performs in every facet of the game. A class that is low DPS in the raid comp is going to be low DPS everywhere. A class that has low CC in the raid comp is going to have low CC everywhere. A class that is extremely frail in a raid comp is going to be extremely frail everywhere. A class that has no cleave... you get the idea. But the point of all that is that how strong a class is, is directly proportional to how much enjoyment a player can get out of playing it, and it is also proportional to the amount of income a player can get.

Nobody likes to be impotent. Every player likes to be able to affect the field in some way. Classes are sold on their themes and aesthetics, and when a player first starts out they pick their class based on these things. A poorly balanced PVE class, therefore, represents players dropping the game because they feel useless or can't do anything. The game is getting harder, and players can't always hide their inefficiencies in a group. In the same vein, nobody likes to be poor, and a shorter time to kill means greater income per hour and more free time.

It is just better overall to use full glass cannon gear and high DPS builds. GW2 was designed PVP first, so there isn't truly a "glass cannon" in the game. You'll get more money, more time, people around you will like you more, and you'll be more effective in smaller numbers.

@zinkz.7045 said:

I'm absolutely not sure how GW2 raid and fractal difficulty compares to WoW diffuculty. Do you need same lvl of optimization for Forsaken Thicket like for Mythic Tomb of Sargeras? If no, then any class goes.

The solo's done by thief exploited bugs (or rather shortsighted design).

Yes they've been cleared by low man groups, or all class groups. The thing to remember is those groups also already knew the fights going in and had pretty much mastered the mechanics required to do so. It's not quite a fair comparison to use these groups either as they all used Meta builds to do so.

@Blood Red Arachnid.2493 said:I wonder what people think when they see me. Wandering around in the overworld, I see a lot of poorly built classes slowly plinking away at enemies using their ranged weapons. Half of their fight is spent running away from the scary enemies, and that is a LOT of time to take for every single mob on the map. Meanwhile, I'm running around in full zerk or full vipers, laying waste to the world like a one-man Searing. Very often I'll walk up to these enemies that is being plinked to death and kill its entire group in 2 seconds, all within view of the other player. What goes through that person's mind when they see somebody effortlessly mow down enemies that they take forever to defeat? Are they in awe over how somebody can do incomprehensible amounts of damage? Do they constantly have to reassure themselves that in a real fight they would be the winner? Does the thought never come to their mind?

Someone is very proud of their pixel prowess.Exhibit A, your Honor.

I'm more and more convinced that the people from Qtfy who post meta builds do it to monopolize raiding for the select few so that they can charge everyone else a fee for raid runs while teaching no one actual raid mechanics.

The mechanics are balanced in a way that do makes a difference. We don't have DBM so you have to learn mechanics by instinct.

I've killed about half the bosses in GW2 right now, had over 1200 boss kills (no LFR) in WoW.

Class stacking starts much sooner in WoW than GW2.

Over the 5 years I played WoW there were speccs that just weren't brought to raids, low level or high level. That or they required the highest level of gear to work. Arcane, frost, and fire mages swapped speccs around like mad. Disco and holy priests were rarely equal. Ret pally had periods were they were not in raids. Go prot or holy or get out. Blood death knight at certain gear levels was a joke. Rogues, spriests, ret pally, DPS monk, warlocks go in and out.

The other thing is it's a lot easier to have multiple gear sets in WoW than GW2. Having multiple good geared characters in GW2 might be slightly easier, but takes a lot of time to do and is only effective in a certain area. Aka Mesmer having a viper, bezerker, commanders, and minstrel set (64-80g runes on two of those sets). Then add the two to three WvW sets... Then have limited inventory space...

The mechanics are softer in WoW. Much softer. Artifact grind doesn't even begin to compare to legendary grind in GW2.

@Halan.8951 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:

@Halan.8951 said:

After reading about group compositions and PoF "farming", decided to ask a question.

I've been playing GW2 on and off for a long time, and only fully switched to it after PoF announcement.Before that I played WoW for years on medium to high lvl. Heroic raids with some bosses on Mythic, and M+ dungeons at reasonably high lvl (it's kinda like Fractal scaling, but also a timed run).

So what puzzles me, despite that game being less casual and having end-game power progression (getting ascended armor is NOTHING compared to Artifact Power grind and hoping for titan-forged gear), only highest-lvl raiders like those going for world-first kills actually did class stacking. Most people just played what classes they liked. Of course there was/is a damage disparity, and different classes shine in different situations, but still ALL classes in ALL specs did ALL content, just not world firsts.

I don't remember class/spec completely excluded from raids or dungeons for years in that game (such problems existed in Classic and BC). I rarely seen someone denied from content on basis of playing a perceived weak class, mostly on personal performance or gear lvl. Yet reading this forum I see this every day, and it made me not want to even attempt harder content, knowing that such ideas are very prevalent among players.

tldr: Why such emphasis on being super-optimized in an ultimately very casual game? Why groups are so rigid in class selection? And why ruin the game for others with demands, and create endless frustration on forums?

If it's about gold per hour, and not content completion, isn't working and then buying gems a better use of your time? So you can actually do enjoyable content in a game, instead of worrying about being "effective". 40g per hour is about 140 gems at current exchange rate, and compared to buying 800/1600 gems it's about 1.75$ per hour.

GW2 is not the same, the only thing we outgear is -80 content, and even then, we're scaled down. So the skill, traits, and stats we use are what give us an edge over enemies. Then you can maximize even further with a good skill rotation and group composition.

From experience I don't think the majority of people use meta builds. And I think the majority that do use meta, only do so as a guideline or template then change a few things around to feel more comfortable and don't follow skill rotation. Unless they're in a speed run group for dungeons, fractal, or raid.

What I'm actually talking about is examples of fixed group composition, like you need Chronomancer, Banner Warrior and Kormir-knows-what else to even step into Dessa's Laboratory, otherwise don't bother. So If you're not one of those classes, better check Trading Post for a rope and some soap.At least that's what I get after reading Fractal and Profession forums.

Part of what you are seeing is the lack (or better yet the design around) of a strong homogenization which has already happened in WoW. WoW has a way less heavy buff and debuff meta than GW2 and most buffs can be provided by multiple classes taking away any uniqueness which was once held by classes.

GW2 has a way advanced and more encompassing boon meta which requires certain classes provide those (might, fury, alacrity, quickness, protection, resistance, etc.). WoW has nothing like that, it's all about tank, heal and damage. Finally WoW gets to redesign classes and mix and match skills and balance however they want ever expansion and they still fail miserably and need massive test server community help balancing their game. The start of each expansion shows this very clealy.

The November 7 patch essentially made it easier to acquire might with only 1 druid instead of 2 warriors freeing up more slots in the raid meta. The lack of a strict trinity makes it way harder to design and balance classes against each other in GW2. Removing the boon and support meta from GW2 would make the combat insanely shallow.

Finally I'd recommend you actually play some of the content in this game instead of just reading about it. The fractal meta is way more tolerant than you might expect from reading the forums. The same goes for the raid meta. You are essentially reading on a 99th percentile level about group compositions and balance while a majority of the player base will never reach such results. It's the equivalent of a new player going to WoW, reading about mythic raids with a new expansion launch and trying to understand the LFG or normal raid meta.

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