Belgium says loot boxes are gambling, wants them banned in Europe

http://money.cnn.com/2017/11/16/technology/battlefront-ii-star-wars-game-gambling/index.htmlhttp://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2017-11-16-star-wars-battlefront-2-loot-boxes-investigated-by-belgian-gaming-commission

In Star Wars video game is getting heat form the Belgium gambling group over loot box used in Battlefront 2 and Overwatch should be branded as gambling.This right now is a hot topic spreading like wildfire throughout the internet and Canada and the US join forces with Belgium over loot box.there is no difference between loot box and Mount Adoption License. The Belgium gambling group might think that the Mount Adoption License could be gambling to.so my question is that does Arena net know this and if so what is Arena net going to do. Can I please have Arena net answer this one as well please.

thanks

ANet has already made a statement about their plans. Unless/until the EU actually does something new, there's nothing (yet) for ANet to respond to.

Vic Hood, writing for EuroGamer

...the [uK] Gambling Commission currently does not consider loot boxes to be gambling because the items obtained from them cannot be exchanged for real-life money:

"Where prizes are successfully restricted for use solely within the game, such in-game features would not be licensable [sic] gambling."

The EU's position has been largely similar. With some other games, the allegation has been that these boxes are critical to being able to play the game (or keep up with those who do pay). In contrast, the mount licenses (and BL Keys) determine how shiny characters look, not anything essential to playing the game. While possible, it's still an enormous leap to expect a governmental organization to regular cosmetics like mount-fits or other skins.

(That doesn't mean I like how ANet priced the mount licenses. I'm just pointing out that the only thing in common is jargon phrase, "loot box" — the circumstances are different.)

Curious as to how this will affect gw2. Since overwatch was mentioned specifically in their decision making, which only has cosmetic loot boxes, its possible GW2 wont be able to sell them either. "According to the report, (the gaming commussion) wants to ban in-game purchases outright (correction: if you don't know exactly what you're purchasing)"

Maybe the preview feature of BLC's can circumvent this?

Granted this will take years to pass if it even managed to get legislative approval. Just something worth debating IMO.

Source: http://www.pcgamer.com/belgium-says-loot-boxes-are-gambling-wants-them-banned-in-europe/

Hopefully if enough regulators get on this it might prompt the industry to start regulating itself. That would probably speed up things a bit and start changing the characteristics of micro transactions to be more acceptable. I am quite sure that no game publisher wants to get a 18+ on their game just because of that or have to go through the licensing process that gambling services need to go through (and the taxation that comes from this).

As for BL chest. There is already preview feature. What might be needed is also publishing the odds of the loot tables and have some kind system to prevent duplicates for things that are not consumable. That might be enough to get it acceptable according to this.

I find this awesome! Yay for Belgium! Sell items directly in online games, not in silly RNG boxes!

Yay for Brexit! We won't have to put up with this Nanny State stuff for much longer.

I think it's too early to say what the effect might be. I definitely wouldn't want to get my hopes up that we're going to see the end of black lion chests and all similar RNG boxes in games.

For a start gambling isn't illegal in Europe, even online gambling for real money, it's just restricted. You have to be over 18 and I think the companies running it have to have a licence. So the end result might just be that games like GW2 go from a 12+ rating to an 18+, which would reduce the pool of potential new players but otherwise wouldn't make any difference. (Unlike in the USA and some other countries 18 rated games are widely available, it's pretty much unheard of for a retailer to refuse to stock them.)

The problem might be getting the licence, I really don't know what that involves and maybe Anet will decide it's not worth it. But then would they remove black lion chests entirely, or just make it so you can't buy them if you're in Europe (which might involve selling them outside the game)?

Or they might be able to change them slightly so they are still allowed. According to another article the problem Belgium had with the Battlefront ones was that there was no way to find out what might be in the box before buying it, which I have heard is one of the rules used to distinguish gambling from other 'games' of chance like a lucky dip - if all the possible prizes are on display then even if you don't know exactly what's in your box you know what you might get and that apparently makes it ok. And it's always been possible to find full lists of the contents of black lion chests. Now you can even get a list sorted by rarity just by right-clicking the chest. That might be enough to get around whatever new laws get put in place as well.

So there's lots of possibilities. I think until we know a) if this is even going to happen and b) exactly what the new law says we can't work out how it will affect GW2.

@Turin.6921 said:Hopefully if enough regulators get on this it might prompt the industry to start regulating itself. That would probably speed up things a bit and start changing the characteristics of micro transactions to be more acceptable. I am quite sure that no game publisher wants to get a 18+ on their game just because of that or have to go through the licensing process that gambling services need to go through (and the taxation that comes from this).

As for BL chest. There is already preview feature. What might be needed is also publishing the odds of the loot tables and have some kind system to prevent duplicates for things that are not consumable. That might be enough to get it acceptable according to this.

Games don't make remotely enough profit to warrant a gambling license, so that's a no-go. My guess is, if they can slap 18+ and keep what's working, they'll just do that. I expect the average paying customer is a folk with a job, not a kid with access to dad's credit card anyway, so they likely won't be losing much by getting an 18+ rating.

The alternative would be to remove the chance element from sales and increase prices accordingly. I'd be reluctant to try that, it seems riskier.

Step in the right direction at least, hopefully other countries follow suit and one day we'll see the end of this RNG for money plague.

Good. I hope they go as far as possible to make using this cancerous monetization model as expensive and inconvenient as possible. Even for cosmetics only. Cosmetics are a core part of games and they shouldn't be given a special treatment. As far as I'm concerned, if games start again to sell content (what a new concept, right?) again instead of relying on lotteries, then it can only improve the state of GW2.

Title says it all. If EU and many states in the US start waving the ban hammer over the loot box -systems, won't ANet have to remove the ability to buy anything mentioned above with real money? How much other randomized buyables do we have in GW2 right now which I've overlooked. I guess ANet will be fine moneywise with these changes (if they really ever come), but at least this loot box scandal is interesting to follow :smile:

The problem is that its gonna be hard for them to define the gameplay advantage. Where to draw the line.

The reason the Battlefront 2 shitstorm hit the fan is that progression and competition is completely tied to the lootboxes. In GW2, its a tacked on system that doesnt do anything to sPvP, a tiny bit to WvW and about as much to PvE (boosters for both). It doesnt help you win thus we let RNG boxes fly under the radar.

Same thing for Overwatch, no one gonna argue that it negativly affect your ability to compete, I think.

But if they just say RNG elements to purchases possible with real money... well BL chests and the like are boned.

I made a thread here: https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/17315/belgium-says-loot-boxes-are-gambling-wants-them-banned-in-europe#latest if you want to follow it :)

Its difficult to say this early on. Everything will depend on the exact wording of the EU, and USA legistlation if it ever comes into effect. Currently it seems its only an issue if

• they are selling to kids, or
• you cant know exactly what you are buying from the chests

Its possible most lootbox games will just become 18+ from now on. Unless they require gambling licences, in which case they will just have to sell items direct. Its worth noting BLC's have a preview option which tells you exactly what you can get from them, and they rarity of each item which might circumvent issue #2.

Im also really curious how it will affect trading cards, since im a semi-collector. But I guess thats not really for GW2 forum.

@zombyturtle.5980 said:Im also really curious how it will affect trading cards, since im a semi-collector. But I guess thats not really for GW2 forum.

Personally I don't see trading cards as falling into this sort of thing. Because any you get that are unwanted can be traded with other people for ones that are of use to you, or of course sold to recoup a bit of value etc. So it's still luck what you get, but at least whatever you get gives you some option of having unwanted items contribute toward something you do want.

If all skins were tradeable on the TP like (I think all) of the weapon skins in BLCs are then it would be more tolerable, because at least you could recoup some gold and put it toward the skin you actually want. It's the fact everything is account bound that I think makes these stupid skin licenses an issue. Any you get that you don't want are dead weight and money down the drain as you can't do anything with them.

On the french side of the Ardennes, the law is quite clear : any kind of lottery is baseline forbidden (with some cultural exceptions). The law states that a lottery is forbideen when the 4 following conditions are met :

• It's offered to a public ;
• There's hope for a gain ;
• Random factor is involved ;
• The operator asks for a fee, whatever kind it is (money or anything), and even if a refund is promised.

Here's the source. French site, baguette speakers only.

Obviously, loot boxes met the 4 criterias : public = gamers, gain = whatever is in it, random outcome, and fee asked (gems, eventhough they can be "no real money", in GW2 case). Legally, the fact that "it's only cosmetic" or "it's only in game" doesn't really matter in french law, just like for theft where it's the very same thing if one steals an egg or a beef.On the other hand, a precursor drop can't be considered a lottery because even if it's a random gain, there's no specific fee involved beyond the ISP costs and the game of course (which are excluded in the lottery definition).

Now, I have no clue if French authorities opened an inquiry about the loot boxes topic. If someone knows, please share !

GW2 loot box can be bought with gem which bought with in game gold, it is not limited to cash only. Also like the other said, game progression is not blocked by these rng, player also gain very limited and close to none advantage over the one who do not use the box.

For me, mount skin is okay, but i would like blacklion chest to be reworked to the favor of players.

Another reason ANet may be in the clear is that EVERYTHING in the gem shop can be obtained without any real-world money transactions. Buying gems with money is 100% optional. You can get gems by trading for gold. Buying gems with money can be seen as just a shortcut rather than a requirement. In most other loot-box situations, getting the currency to buy loot boxes in-game is either impossible or extremely limited.

@ThomasC.1056 said:Now, I have no clue if French authorities opened an inquiry about the loot boxes topic. If someone knows, please share !

French authority comment. You are welcome :)https://www.reddit.com/r/Guildwars2/comments/7em8xq/belgium_says_loot_boxes_are_gambling_wants_them/dq62wvd/

The controversy started last week when a new game released: Star Wars: Battlefront. In this game the player could purchase so called 'lootcrates', virtual boxes which would give the player certain advantages in the game. However, the player does not know the exact contents of this crate before purchasing.

I guess it won't affect GW2 at all, because the only things which provides advantages are clear when you purchase em.

Hopefully ANet will get ahead of this issue, do the right thing without anyone forcing them to do it, and shift from a gambling model to a direct value model.

I kind of doubt that they will be so consumer-friendly as to just start offering BLC stuff as direct 1:1 purchases, but we'll probably see more bundles, where instead of rolling on a chest and having a low chance of getting something useful and a high change of getting a bunch of trash, it'll just be a high cost package that guarantees the good thing along with a ton of trash you have no use for.

@Dawdler.8521 said:The problem is that its gonna be hard for them to define the gameplay advantage. Where to draw the line.

The reason the Battlefront 2 kitten hit the fan is that progression and competition is completely tied to the lootboxes. In GW2, its a tacked on system that doesnt do anything to sPvP, a tiny bit to WvW and about as much to PvE (boosters for both). It doesnt help you win thus we let RNG boxes fly under the radar.

Same thing for Overwatch, no one gonna argue that it negativly affect your ability to compete, I think.

But if they just say RNG elements to purchases possible with real money... well BL chests and the like are boned.

The simplest solution is to remove the RNG element and transition all parts of value over to the gem store. I mean it just got a fancy new layout change, time to put the format to good use.

Mount license would need reworking to allow you to select a specific mount but otherwise can stay intact. BL tickets can be sold on the store as whole tickets. The new skins in the BL chests moved to the gem store, I know many people who would have paid 700 gems for the Dwayna backpack combo or hydra staff instead of grinding keys.

Only thing that becomes hard to transition over are the nodes (though they have been sold there before) and permenant contracts as far as I can tell.

Why risk getting caught up in this loot box fiasco, instead take the initiative to do away with it before forced to and maybe get a bit of good will instead of spite.

Personally speaking, I would never buy gems (with real money) to put into any RNG mechanic myself. Simply because I think such methods are pure in there to get you to roll the dice once more to get that one item (cosmetic or not) you want for your character. Then again, when I get black lion keys through gameplay itself, I totally enjoy that aspect. Also addicting, but with that method ArenaNet isn't trying to pull more money out of my wallet.

@Feanor.2358 said:

Games don't make remotely enough profit to warrant a gambling license, so that's a no-go. My guess is, if they can slap 18+ and keep what's working, they'll just do that. I expect the average paying customer is a folk with a job, not a kid with access to dad's credit card anyway, so they likely won't be losing much by getting an 18+ rating.

The alternative would be to remove the chance element from sales and increase prices accordingly. I'd be reluctant to try that, it seems riskier.

From what I remember Anet went through quite some length to ensure that Taimi as a child character wouldn't wind up in direct combat (the reason why she's always inside scruffy), because that would immediately raise their age rating to 18+. I don't know how much this would weigh in when RNG lootboxes would have to go as a consequence, but it does suggest that they value their current 12+ rating.

Toy vending machines have been what mount licenses are for years in the US.As a kid, I remember frequently seeing tv shows that would dedicate an episode to this, people using tons of quarters trying to get that one specific toy.

Everyone values their lower rating, if they can get it. But not at the expense of revenues.