[Discussion]Revamp (not update) or limit Dungeons, because they deter new players. — Guild Wars 2 Forums

[Discussion]Revamp (not update) or limit Dungeons, because they deter new players.

Lipzipper.3160Lipzipper.3160 Member ✭✭
edited November 23, 2017 in Fractals, Dungeons, and Raids

I know I know, you've heard it before.

"Update dungeons ANET kitten, kitten¤"#% ! etc..

No!

Don't update dungeons, revamp them.

Delete the paths, and replace them with a SINGLE "path" per dungeon that is balanced in reward and challenge.

There are of course several ways they could do this, so here's what I want dungeons to be and what position I want them to hold:
(I'll try to be as precise, and objective as I can be.)

  • I want dungeons to be valid and for them to have a reason to exist in the game for players who have unlocked all skins.
  • I want rng ADDED "note that", to the dungeons by allowing dungeon gear to drop from bosses ALONGSIDE the currency and vendors. (Low drop % obviously.)
  • I do NOT suggest new dungeons to be added. (the 8 dungeons from vanilla is enough as pillar content.)
  • I DO think that fractals are the future as it has been, and that all 5 man oriented content like it should be developed in that domain of the game.

I consider the dungeon-meta to be a unintended result of bad design which leaves us with skipping, stacking for more than boons and confused players carried by some experienced players. There is almost no reason to read the event descriptions considering it's often bypassed by player inginuity, which often is unintuitive and unrewarding as many players do NOT enjoy it or wish to learn it from an extensive guide that explain having a boss stuck inside wall to ignore mechanics. And, I have serious doubts that the dungeons were ment to play that way.

Why? Whats the reason for revamping them?

  • As of now dungeons are a messy endeavor and it is a deterrent for newer players because it is their first group-instanced content. This leaves an impression upon the player on how the game plays, and it really is NOT unusual that players believe fractals and raids to be harder versions of dungeons.

How could dungeons be revamped?

  • Basically remove all the old dungeon events and replace them. (Keep the instance/map.)

Replace the events with what?

  • Stable, balanced events that are up to date mechanically. (I think the game would benefit to see mechanics that force the group to not stack as much, which is a gameplay I find considerably boring when it basically is the single tactic you do.)

What about skipping?

  • Skipping... It's maybe THE worst gameplay in Guild Wars 2.
    So, how could it be solved?
    Design the paths to make it impossible (doors that will have to be opened etc,) BUT also decrease the AMOUNT of, or the STRENGTH of the NPC's.

Example:

  • A few strong NPC's in Arah would feel off considering it is a post-apocalyptic zombieland.
  • An army of weak bandit NPC's would feel wierd in Caudecus's Manor.

What do I think dungeons should feel like?

  • I think dungeons should feel like a LONGER fractal with a more "big" story-oriented side to it.

What kind of story?
I'd like something that doesn't directly connect with the personal story, but still be prominent.
(Example: King Adelbern has assebled his armies and is just about to unleash his vengeance upon the black citadel, you have to stop him not as the commander, but as A player.)
Isn't Adelbern dead in canon because of the story dungeon?
Revamping the dungeons would of course mean that the original stories would have to be rewritten/altered so that it does not interfere with the personal story.

(I'll admit my bias here, I do not really enjoy the original characters from the Living Story or S1 and 2 Living World, and never felt that they matter in any way. Rytlock, Canach, Traehaern all have their moments and to some extent Taimi also, but characters like Zojja, Logan, Eir and braham etc all make me cringe some times.)
just make them go away anet, pls c:.

Arenanet has said that they won't work on dungeons right?
Yes they have, but I would like to point out that at this moment dungeons are hurting the game, A LOT. Dungeons are basically where new players first experience 5 man content in the game. Personally I did not do or try any fractals before spring 2017 (played since 2014) because I thought they were like a harder version of dungeons... It hurts the game, and everyone do not google it like me. (eventually.)

If Arenanet won't do anything of the sorts, I will have to sincerely ask that they make all the dungeons have a level 80 required to even enter.
A small sacrifice for the healthy growth of the game.

The quality has really increased these last few years, and I want to applaud Arenanet for their achievements and I look forward to all the new raids, fractals the future will bring!
Do YOU agree/disagree? What do you think :)?

Tyria feels a bit like a messy room right now, maybe it's time to clean it a little?

<1

Comments

  • Rennie.6750Rennie.6750 Member ✭✭✭

    No. Dungeons are fine as they are, there's no need for a revamp. Rewards are there, and if you try to make a group with LFG you'll likely fill fast and succeed, except for Arah maybe.

  • Introducing some of the bounty mechanics to the dungeons bosses / some monsters might be fun.
    I would like to see new dungeons for the new maps. And yeah fractals are not dungeons. Main difference is that dungeons actually provide some kind of story. Fractals are short 5-man content with couple of mechanics.

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  • Lipzipper.3160Lipzipper.3160 Member ✭✭
    edited November 22, 2017

    @YoukiNeko.6047 said:
    Introducing some of the bounty mechanics to the dungeons bosses / some monsters might be fun.
    I would like to see new dungeons for the new maps. And yeah fractals are not dungeons. Main difference is that dungeons actually provide some kind of story. Fractals are short 5-man content with couple of mechanics.

    Yes I agree, maybe not with extra dungeons though, but I suspect that we view dungeons a little differently.

    I cought myself while writing this that I basically view dungeons as 5 man raids with simpler mechanics. As of length(In a better world i mean.)

    Do you mean that you would like to see a dungeon same size or smaller like a fractal with an entrance in the open world? (Labeled Dungeon and have nothing to do with the consept of fractaling?)

  • Skipping and stacking are valid tactics though which have been around since gw1. I think it takes skill to effectively pull of a skip and I dont think that should be destroyed. Thats part of the reason I dont feel fractals are sufficient replacement for dungeons. Also stacking is mostly not done in dungeons these days as damage creep is so out of hand, you can burst all mobs and bosses down before they even have a chance to move.

    I dont think they need to make them 80 only as they are balanced around the reccommended level and I really hope they dont make them 1 single path as that would be removing content which this game does NOT need any more of.

    Honestly this post just seems to be another 'I hate skipping and stacking, change the game to make everyone play the way I like'. Id suggest to you to make you own group with the description 'no skipping casual run'

  • Lipzipper.3160Lipzipper.3160 Member ✭✭
    edited November 22, 2017

    @zombyturtle.5980 said:
    Skipping and stacking are valid tactics though which have been around since gw1. I think it takes skill to effectively pull of a skip and I dont think that should be destroyed. Thats part of the reason I dont feel fractals are sufficient replacement for dungeons. Also stacking is mostly not done in dungeons these days as damage creep is so out of hand, you can burst all mobs and bosses down before they even have a chance to move.

    I dont think they need to make them 80 only as they are balanced around the reccommended level and I really hope they dont make them 1 single path as that would be removing content which this game does NOT need any more of.

    Honestly this post just seems to be another 'I hate skipping and stacking, change the game to make everyone play the way I like'. Id suggest to you to make you own group with the description 'no skipping casual run'

    I understand that you consider skipping and stacking a staple of the Guild Wars franchise, mind you I do NOT want stacking for boons and generally intelligent gameplay removed at all (I want to do more.)

    As of skill i do not agree with you unfortunately , I am in no way uncapable of clearing dungeons with that playstyle and agree that it can be fun if your whole group is in on it. But frankly it hurts the game, and what annoys ME the most is having to explain to a new player that we are going to pop stealth run and probably fail again and again because 3/5 in the group do not understand it for the unatural consept that it is. Its not hard to execute, its just a matter of study.

    Its more like a speed run of any game, its something you do when theres nothing else for challenge and you really should move on.

    Also doing full clears of dungeons are a time investment for little reward, which is why I want a revamp. As I said; skipping is unnatural gameplay happening naturally because the dungeons are badly designed that way.

  • Shirlias.8104Shirlias.8104 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Skipping and stacking are clever tactics, but that's all.

    There’s nothing good in Skipping part of the run or stack on the same place.

  • Lipzipper.3160Lipzipper.3160 Member ✭✭
    edited November 22, 2017

    @Shirlias.8104 said:
    Skipping and stacking are clever tactics, but that's all.

    There’s nothing good in Skipping part of the run or stack on the same place.

    Agreed, adding simple mechanics not unlike the bosses in "The Shattered Observatory" fractal would break the group up for objectives and such goodies that flavour the encounters. That's also why I do not wish or crave fancy totally new shiny dungeons. Just remove the bugged content and implement and borrow from already developed tech we all know work much better me thinks. Skill is actually dodging an attack, not removing the attack and reason to dodge.

  • @Lipzipper.3160 said:

    I would like to see longer paths, but still keep the multiple paths + story path.
    Multiple paths provide additional story telling and mechanics. And the story path can show a little of the mechanics in the multiple paths so you know what to expects.

    @zombyturtle.5980

    Skipping is really easy to do and I don't see how it can be fun. Same for stacking.
    I've done runs skipping everything and runs clearing everything. And most of the time I had more fun doing the second. But I do agree that after X amount of runs, clearing trash mobs becomes way to boring (trash mobs rarely have unique mechanic and are rarely worth it (well one of the player we cleared dungeons back in the day did get a precursor from dungeon trash)). So allowing for some kind of skipping should be allowed.

    I can see some encounters requiring you to stack (like how some bounties can take damage if you are in a special zone) but apart from that its pretty strange mechanic.
    But I do agree that the old dungeons should be tuned for the appropriate level instead of level 80.

    I remember trying to clear AC path 3 in one of the weekends beta before launch. The highest level in the party was maybe 37-8. It was a disaster but still we had fun.
    So I think it would be good for players to be able to experience dungeons sooner instead of waiting for level 80.

    I would really enjoy if ANet change the combat so support and tank roles can be more useful, but without dropping entirely in the holy trinity.
    Example: A boss have hard hitting almost insta KO AOE attack, but if you taunt him and then use block/evade then the attack will only target you. Now if you are missing a character with evade your party can try to evade/block or if a healing spec is there heal the damage after the attack.
    This way we have more interesting mechanics and options instead of stack in the corner and fire all your skills as fast as possible.

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  • Devilman.1532Devilman.1532 Member ✭✭✭

    Sadly they will never do anything with dungeons ever again. They have made this pretty clear in the past. Dungeons are some of my favorite content too. :( They seem to be much more concerned with churning out RNG gem store stuff. I really wish they would listen to the community but that has never been their MO.

  • @Devilman.1532 said:
    Sadly they will never do anything with dungeons ever again. They have made this pretty clear in the past. Dungeons are some of my favorite content too. :( They seem to be much more concerned with churning out RNG gem store stuff. I really wish they would listen to the community but that has never been their MO.

    Anet is about to release a fractal, raid and a new map. yet somehow you can't see this and seem to think Anet only releases Gem Store stuff. Open your eyes and try to see.

  • serialkicker.5274serialkicker.5274 Member ✭✭✭
    edited November 22, 2017

    Make final reward dependent on how many events you finished in dungeon and how successfully. All events finished successfully = max rewards (tokens, gold) and better chance for a rare reward to drop.
    Its a shame. Instead of making raids, they should rework dungeons, I'm sure it would benefit a lot larger group of playerbase and make better impression on new player, especially if there wouldn't be so much speedrunning like now.

  • Devilman.1532Devilman.1532 Member ✭✭✭

    A new map that after its played will have zero replay value, a fractal that will be full of bugs that will never be fixed and with zero replay value, and another raid that 5% of the player base will even play. Yeah look at all that great content!!! ;) /sarcasm But class balance? Nawww wouldn't wanna do that ;)

  • So your proposal is to remove content. Each path is sufficiently unique from other paths to be a different dungeon. You want to remove paths so each dungeon is one thing, and you don't want to add new dungeons. This means you want to make what is currently three different yet similar things into only one thing. This means you're trying to make dungeons more grindy because instead of doing something different when you run it three times, you would just be doing the same thing over and over ad nauseum.

    I really can't get past that, and since you don't address it at all the whole proposal sounds like garbage to me.

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  • Kheldorn.5123Kheldorn.5123 Member ✭✭✭✭

    I didn't read your thread but I'm pretty sure Anet will do nothing about dungeons ever again.

  • @Einlanzer.1627 said:
    The only revamp we really need is some new god kitten dungeons.

    God KITTEN!!!! Lets hope they add it to the home instance.

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  • @Kheldorn.5123 said:
    I didn't read your thread but I'm pretty sure Anet will do nothing about dungeons ever again.

    I'm pretty sure raids and mounts weren't planned for the game either, yet we have them now, because people wanted them.

  • Kheldorn.5123Kheldorn.5123 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited November 22, 2017

    @serialkicker.5274 said:

    @Kheldorn.5123 said:
    I didn't read your thread but I'm pretty sure Anet will do nothing about dungeons ever again.

    I'm pretty sure raids and mounts weren't planned for the game either, yet we have them now, because people wanted them.

    Dungeons are already in game and failed as a concept. Just like esports. Both are not coming back.

  • @Devilman.1532 said:
    A new map that after its played will have zero replay value, a fractal that will be full of bugs that will never be fixed and with zero replay value, and another raid that 5% of the player base will even play. Yeah look at all that great content!!! ;) /sarcasm But class balance? Nawww wouldn't wanna do that ;)

    Quite a few fractals have been updated. You claim none have. What's your point?

  • @Kheldorn.5123 said:

    @serialkicker.5274 said:

    @Kheldorn.5123 said:
    I didn't read your thread but I'm pretty sure Anet will do nothing about dungeons ever again.

    I'm pretty sure raids and mounts weren't planned for the game either, yet we have them now, because people wanted them.

    Dungeons are already in game and failed as a concept. Just like esports. Both are not coming back.

    How can you be so sure? Anyway I can hope.

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  • @Kheldorn.5123 said:

    @serialkicker.5274 said:

    @Kheldorn.5123 said:
    I didn't read your thread but I'm pretty sure Anet will do nothing about dungeons ever again.

    I'm pretty sure raids and mounts weren't planned for the game either, yet we have them now, because people wanted them.

    Dungeons are already in game and failed as a concept. Just like esports. Both are not coming back.

    Why did they fail? Because you said so? Because you didn't like them? They were played by a large amount of people for quite some time. They weren't updated, so that's why they ended up in bad state, especially after first elite specs. If they got attention fractals or raids get, they would get popular again.

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Lipzipper.3160 said:
    I know I know, you've heard it before.

    "Update dungeons ANET kitten, kitten¤"#% ! etc..

    No!

    Don't update dungeons, revamp them.

    Tomato tomaato.

    I get it, you want to disarm people who are about to rush in and scream and not take the topic seriously, stating something like this does none of that. This is basic presentation stuff, if you are aware that people have heard it before, don't make them hear it again. The fact that you rephrase the term update to revamp shows you know how a thesaurus works, it hardly creates the groundbreaking difference in thematic approach which would be needed.

    @Lipzipper.3160 said:

    • I want dungeons to be valid and for them to have a reason to exist in the game for players who have unlocked all skins.

    You have not yet shown that dungeons are not valid. As far as I can tell they are good gold per hour, provide an abundance of unique skins as well as end game runes and sigils (rune of nightmare for some condi builds as an example). I'd call that pretty valid. What you wanted to say was:"You want dungeons to get run by the community as often as they got used to run in the past."

    @Lipzipper.3160 said:

    • I want rng ADDED "note that", to the dungeons by allowing dungeon gear to drop from bosses ALONGSIDE the currency and vendors. (Low drop % obviously.)

    More rng, I'm sure people will get right on that idea of supporting this. Wasn't one of your approaches dungeons were supposed to provide incentive for people with all the skins? What you should have said is, you want increased dungeons rewards to make the content more enticing. As is, not needed, dungeons are rewarding enough.

    @Lipzipper.3160 said:

    • I do NOT suggest new dungeons to be added. (the 8 dungeons from vanilla is enough as pillar content.)

    Great, because they won't. This also divides the audience which you are intending to reach even further. You are now down to people who do not feel new dungeons are needed, yet feel the need that old dungeons require a complete revamp. That's going very niche imo.

    I'm going to address the rest of your points simply by saying:

    Yes, 5+ year old content which has no work seen on it will feel dated and not be up to par with current quality of the game.

    Yes, dungeons could get a complete revamp/rework to bring them up to speed.

    No, this is not so easy and would require massive developer hours as well as new design and implementation of rewards and a reward structure.

    Yes, new players are left out to dry as far as dungeons are concerned. If this is to big an issue, make dungeon story lines all level 80. It's not as though a big part of the player base runs them at sub 80 anyway.

    Any type of work done on dungeons is competing with work which could be done on other parts of the game. As such, the cost-benefit analysis disfavors change to dungeons just as it disfavors a redesign of Living World Season 1 (something a lot of players would love to see reintroduced into the game). So it won't happen.

  • Kheldorn.5123Kheldorn.5123 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @serialkicker.5274 said:

    @Kheldorn.5123 said:

    @serialkicker.5274 said:

    @Kheldorn.5123 said:
    I didn't read your thread but I'm pretty sure Anet will do nothing about dungeons ever again.

    I'm pretty sure raids and mounts weren't planned for the game either, yet we have them now, because people wanted them.

    Dungeons are already in game and failed as a concept. Just like esports. Both are not coming back.

    Why did they fail? Because you said so? Because you didn't like them? They were played by a large amount of people for quite some time. They weren't updated, so that's why they ended up in bad state, especially after first elite specs. If they got attention fractals or raids get, they would get popular again.

    I am one of biggest dungeon fans in this game.

    @YoukiNeko.6047 said:

    @Kheldorn.5123 said:

    @serialkicker.5274 said:

    @Kheldorn.5123 said:
    I didn't read your thread but I'm pretty sure Anet will do nothing about dungeons ever again.

    I'm pretty sure raids and mounts weren't planned for the game either, yet we have them now, because people wanted them.

    Dungeons are already in game and failed as a concept. Just like esports. Both are not coming back.

    How can you be so sure?

    They barely release any raids or fractals. They have no resources to create anything that's not a gemstore skin.

  • @Kheldorn.5123 said:

    @serialkicker.5274 said:

    @Kheldorn.5123 said:

    @serialkicker.5274 said:

    @Kheldorn.5123 said:
    I didn't read your thread but I'm pretty sure Anet will do nothing about dungeons ever again.

    I'm pretty sure raids and mounts weren't planned for the game either, yet we have them now, because people wanted them.

    Dungeons are already in game and failed as a concept. Just like esports. Both are not coming back.

    Why did they fail? Because you said so? Because you didn't like them? They were played by a large amount of people for quite some time. They weren't updated, so that's why they ended up in bad state, especially after first elite specs. If they got attention fractals or raids get, they would get popular again.

    I am one of biggest dungeon fans in this game.

    @YoukiNeko.6047 said:

    @Kheldorn.5123 said:

    @serialkicker.5274 said:

    @Kheldorn.5123 said:
    I didn't read your thread but I'm pretty sure Anet will do nothing about dungeons ever again.

    I'm pretty sure raids and mounts weren't planned for the game either, yet we have them now, because people wanted them.

    Dungeons are already in game and failed as a concept. Just like esports. Both are not coming back.

    How can you be so sure?

    They barely release any raids or fractals. They have no resources to create anything that's not a gemstore skin.

    You never know. But yeah most likely they will never do anything about the dungeons.

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  • serialkicker.5274serialkicker.5274 Member ✭✭✭
    edited November 22, 2017

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Lipzipper.3160 said:
    I know I know, you've heard it before.

    "Update dungeons ANET kitten, kitten¤"#% ! etc..

    No!

    Don't update dungeons, revamp them.

    Tomato tomaato.

    I get it, you want to disarm people who are about to rush in and scream and not take the topic seriously, stating something like this does none of that. This is basic presentation stuff, if you are aware that people have heard it before, don't make them hear it again. The fact that you rephrase the term update to revamp shows you know how a thesaurus works, it hardly creates the groundbreaking difference in thematic approach which would be needed.

    @Lipzipper.3160 said:

    • I want dungeons to be valid and for them to have a reason to exist in the game for players who have unlocked all skins.

    You have not yet shown that dungeons are not valid. As far as I can tell they are good gold per hour, provide an abundance of unique skins as well as end game runes and sigils (rune of nightmare for some condi builds as an example). I'd call that pretty valid. What you wanted to say was:"You want dungeons to get run by the community as often as they got used to run in the past."

    @Lipzipper.3160 said:

    • I want rng ADDED "note that", to the dungeons by allowing dungeon gear to drop from bosses ALONGSIDE the currency and vendors. (Low drop % obviously.)

    More rng, I'm sure people will get right on that idea of supporting this. Wasn't one of your approaches dungeons were supposed to provide incentive for people with all the skins? What you should have said is, you want increased dungeons rewards to make the content more enticing. As is, not needed, dungeons are rewarding enough.

    @Lipzipper.3160 said:

    • I do NOT suggest new dungeons to be added. (the 8 dungeons from vanilla is enough as pillar content.)

    Great, because they won't. This also divides the audience which you are intending to reach even further. You are now down to people who do not feel new dungeons are needed, yet feel the need that old dungeons require a complete revamp. That's going very niche imo.

    I'm going to address the rest of your points simply by saying:

    Yes, 5+ year old content which has no work seen on it will feel dated and not be up to par with current quality of the game.

    Yes, dungeons could get a complete revamp/rework to bring them up to speed.

    No, this is not so easy and would require massive developer hours as well as new design and implementation of rewards and a reward structure.

    Yes, new players are left out to dry as far as dungeons are concerned. If this is to big an issue, make dungeon story lines all level 80. It's not as though a big part of the player base runs them at sub 80 anyway.

    Any type of work done on dungeons is competing with work which could be done on other parts of the game. As such, the cost-benefit analysis disfavors change to dungeons just as it disfavors a redesign of Living World Season 1 (something a lot of players would love to see reintroduced into the game). So it won't happen.

    "Makes gold = it's valid" facepalm

  • Rezzet.3614Rezzet.3614 Member ✭✭✭

    As far as dungeons go i suggest two paths asides from story an average dificulty path and a punishing path with reduced waypoints and respawning enemies with some of them fractal effects , add a second set of dungeon gear that requires tokens earned from hard path

  • ANet isn't going to spend any energy changing dungeons except to fix exploits or completely game-breaking bugs, not if they want to keep working on fractals (which they do).

    @Lipzipper.3160 said:
    Don't update dungeons, revamp them.

    Delete the paths, and replace them with a SINGLE "path" per dungeon that is balanced in reward and challenge.

    ANet has released 16 fractals since November 12, 2012, that's a rate of one every 3.75 months. If you count only the new ones since the first set (and include revamps), that's 10 in the same period, a rate of one every 6 months. Gutting each dungeon and replacing its 3 explorable paths with a single new path would take at least 2.5 years (but probably would take closer to 4 years), during which time, we'd have no new fractals. And, at the end, things would be less replayable than they are now.

    Or we can wait for ANet to release 9 more fractals (including the one next week), which is likely to take another 3-4 years (unless ANet starts speeding up the release of new instances). At that point, our attitudes with be very, very different.

    Hype is the path to the dark side. Hype leads to unfulfilled expectations. Disappointment leads to anger. Anger leads to disgust. Disgust leads to "oh, new shinies! I'm back!"

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited November 22, 2017

    I see zero point in doing such a massive revamp on dungeons.
    a) The dungeon crowd will complain anyway, they want new dungeons and not revamps, just take a look at fractals, they got massive revamps, yet people only count "3 new Fractals in 2 years"
    b) Old dungeons cannot be monetized, there is zero reason to buy an expansion to play dungeons (especially at their normal levels), no need to use elite specs, no need to get ascended gear and so on. Anet won't get more sales by revamping old dungeons
    c) Dungeons were created with the oldest possible toolset. The team that created and used it is gone. This means that a revamp isn't possible without allocating more resources than creating new dungeons altogether
    d) If it requires such massive changes to "fix" them, why not make new dungeons instead?

    Someday Arenanet will realize that Fractals cannot be monetized, as you do not need to buy an expansion to play them. Maybe you'll need to buy one of the two expansions in order to get the Core Tyria mastery abilities that work in Fractals and that's it. But if you don't do T4s, you don't need the latest meta elite specs, you don't need the extra agony, therefore you can play Fractals as a free player just fine.
    On the other hand, dungeons with an expansion theme? You will be required to buy the expansion to play those. Plus Fractals require extra time to be added due to the reward system, adding new dungeons would be much easier, so it's a clear win-win situation.

  • Haishao.6851Haishao.6851 Member ✭✭✭

    Anet once removed a dungeon path and made it into a longer fractal. It became one of the least popular dungeon path in the game and they disbanded the dungeon team as a result.

  • Pre HoT there was an active dungeon community that wanted new dungeons. Fractals existed then too but there was a much more active dungeon community that is now dead because Anet decided to not make new dungeons with the expansions. Anet has been making new fractals its true and made changes to them, but the fractal community was never as large or as active as the dungeon one was, same with raids. Its Anet's game so they make it how they want, but looking at how dead the game is becoming maybe it was a mistake to not continue to keep existing communities in the game alive instead of trying to push players into content that Anet wants them to do. I think WvW community can relate on some level. You can say what you want about the dungeon meta and tactics, but to be a good dungeon runner you had to know your class. You had to know your different weapon skills for fields, blasts, and movement and burst dps rotation. You had to be able to quickly swap weapons and traits, and move as a team, it was a lot of precision to do. These skills are now mostly dead in the game and many players don't know much of their class. Nothing I'm saying hasn't been already said before both before and after HoT. If Anet wants to revamp the mostly dead dungeon community then make new dungeons. I agree with the OP that dungeons should give players warnings about the level requirements for them, cause they are very difficult at their "suggested" level. I don't think that anything else they suggested is a good idea. Its simple, make new dungeons or just keep doing what you are doing Anet if you like how your game is going the last 2-3 years.

  • I didn't read your post OP, I was gonna, but it's long. Look, in short anything a dungeon can do, fractals can do better. They are just a way more convenient and fun way to do the whole dungeon thing. Plus they have a reward structure already setup, and a neat little tier system that enables reuse of the same levels with just a few tweaks to their mechanics. Dungeons are way too 2012.

  • @nosleepdemon.1368 said:
    I didn't read your post OP, I was gonna, but it's long. Look, in short anything a dungeon can do, fractals can do better. They are just a way more convenient and fun way to do the whole dungeon thing. Plus they have a reward structure already setup, and a neat little tier system that enables reuse of the same levels with just a few tweaks to their mechanics. Dungeons are way too 2012.

    For me dungeons have better story, interesting monsters and are fun overall. Fractals are single dungeon encounters. Some of them are fun, most meh.

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  • zealex.9410zealex.9410 Member ✭✭✭✭

    "Skipping... It's maybe THE worst gameplay in Guild Wars 2. " And theres goes any thumbs up you may had from me up until that point. And any point afterwards for that matter...

  • serialkicker.5274serialkicker.5274 Member ✭✭✭
    edited November 22, 2017

    @zealex.9410 said:
    "Skipping... It's maybe THE worst gameplay in Guild Wars 2. " And theres goes any thumbs up you may had from me up until that point. And any point afterwards for that matter...

    So, stealth and run to the final chest is gameplay for you? You heard that Anet? Just make a long corridor, fill them with mobs and put chest at the end. People want to run, Anet! No need to waste your money and time for anything meaningful.

  • Kheldorn.5123Kheldorn.5123 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @serialkicker.5274 said:

    @zealex.9410 said:
    "Skipping... It's maybe THE worst gameplay in Guild Wars 2. " And theres goes any thumbs up you may had from me up until that point. And any point afterwards for that matter...

    So, stealth and run to the final chest is gameplay for you? You heard that Anet? Just make a long corridor, fill them with mobs and put chest at the end. People want to run, Anet! No need to waste your money and time for anything meaningful.

    Skipping can be challenge itself. Some places in dungeons are clearly a "run through" part. E.g. AC P1 tunnel after gathering scepters.

  • @Kheldorn.5123 said:

    @serialkicker.5274 said:

    @zealex.9410 said:
    "Skipping... It's maybe THE worst gameplay in Guild Wars 2. " And theres goes any thumbs up you may had from me up until that point. And any point afterwards for that matter...

    So, stealth and run to the final chest is gameplay for you? You heard that Anet? Just make a long corridor, fill them with mobs and put chest at the end. People want to run, Anet! No need to waste your money and time for anything meaningful.

    Skipping can be challenge itself.

    Sorry, but this is the worst joke I've heard this week.

  • @YoukiNeko.6047 said:
    I would really enjoy if ANet change the combat so support and tank roles can be more useful, but without dropping entirely in the holy trinity.
    Example: A boss have hard hitting almost insta KO AOE attack, but if you taunt him and then use block/evade then the attack will only target you. Now if you are missing a character with evade your party can try to evade/block or if a healing spec is there heal the damage after the attack.
    This way we have more interesting mechanics and options instead of stack in the corner and fire all your skills as fast as possible.

    This seems a little too advanced for dungeons I think but in raids heck yeah! Simply making taunt work on target with breakbars would make realtime dmg negation tanking much more viable. If you see the boss charging for a singletarget spell you could f.ex use taunt, soak the dmg and save that member. Even though aoe Aegis works just as well, its just not that cool hehe..

  • @Oglaf.1074 said:
    I've said it before, and I'll say it again:

    What they need to do is add an Ascended tier of rewards to dungeons (with a relative higher cost in tokens, of course).

    There, now people would have an incentive to run dungeons.

    Its not that people arent running them, because they are. The dungeons are really bugged with many events that just break sometimes, like bosses not spawning, doors not opening etc. One of the reasons i proposed the single path per dungeon is because i suspect that all those paths ended up bugging each other, but dont take my word for it.

  • Haishao.6851Haishao.6851 Member ✭✭✭

    @serialkicker.5274 said:

    @Kheldorn.5123 said:

    @serialkicker.5274 said:

    @zealex.9410 said:
    "Skipping... It's maybe THE worst gameplay in Guild Wars 2. " And theres goes any thumbs up you may had from me up until that point. And any point afterwards for that matter...

    So, stealth and run to the final chest is gameplay for you? You heard that Anet? Just make a long corridor, fill them with mobs and put chest at the end. People want to run, Anet! No need to waste your money and time for anything meaningful.

    Skipping can be challenge itself.

    Sorry, but this is the worst joke I've heard this week.

    And yet, there are tons of people unable to do it.

  • @Kal Spiro.9745 said:
    So your proposal is to remove content. Each path is sufficiently unique from other paths to be a different dungeon. You want to remove paths so each dungeon is one thing, and you don't want to add new dungeons. This means you want to make what is currently three different yet similar things into only one thing. This means you're trying to make dungeons more grindy because instead of doing something different when you run it three times, you would just be doing the same thing over and over ad nauseum.

    I really can't get past that, and since you don't address it at all the whole proposal sounds like garbage to me.

    You are right I should have adressed this, but I do adress it indirectly by proposing that dungeon-gear drop from the actual dungeon in addition to tokens and their respective vendors. Also, if you already have all the gear from all the dungeons and you're still doing them that means you are enjoying the content. We have fractals for daily farm and casual gameplay (gameplay that does not require a long sitting.)

  • @Kheldorn.5123 said:
    I didn't read your thread but I'm pretty sure Anet will do nothing about dungeons ever again.

    Heres me hoping :*

  • @Kheldorn.5123 said:

    @serialkicker.5274 said:

    @Kheldorn.5123 said:
    I didn't read your thread but I'm pretty sure Anet will do nothing about dungeons ever again.

    I'm pretty sure raids and mounts weren't planned for the game either, yet we have them now, because people wanted them.

    Dungeons are already in game and failed as a concept. Just like esports. Both are not coming back.

    Well, I do not wish for more dungeons, I just want the content we already have in-game be acceptably not hurting the game by fooling new players to believe the dungeon quality represent the general Guild Wars 2 quality, which it doesn't anymore.

    Most people do not research and read about every part of the game, and they shouldnt have to either. Its a videogame, its supposed to be fun and enjoyable, not be a study. We have raids for the more hungry players, which can even be cleared in full green armor. Why? because raids promote skill and thought rather than gear dependency and useless NPC almost without any mechanics just big numbers.

  • Lipzipper.3160Lipzipper.3160 Member ✭✭
    edited November 22, 2017

    @Cyninja.2954 said:
    I get it, you want to disarm people who are about to rush in and scream and not take the topic seriously, stating something like this does none of that. This is basic presentation stuff, if you are aware that people have heard it before, don't make them hear it again. The fact that you rephrase the term update to revamp shows you know how a thesaurus works, it hardly creates the groundbreaking difference in thematic approach which would be needed.

    ----- Update to revamp is not a rephrase as my opinion is to DELETE every single event inside the dungeon maps. I only suggested keeping the maps because of the unnecessary work that building new ones bring. I do not know what a thesaurus is, ill google it.

    @Lipzipper.3160 said:

    • I want dungeons to be valid and for them to have a reason to exist in the game for players who have unlocked all skins.

    -------- I agree with you, and I will admit this is one of my first arguments that I popped in without any real evidence. You are right and I should have read and thought about it more clearly before posting.

    You have not yet shown that dungeons are not valid. As far as I can tell they are good gold per hour, provide an abundance of unique skins as well as end game runes and sigils (rune of nightmare for some condi builds as an example). I'd call that pretty valid. What you wanted to say was:"You want dungeons to get run by the community as often as they got used to run in the past."

    --------- Ive seen this in another post also; no, I do not. This post is a concern for the health of the game and as others have pointed out on this thread is that there actually are alot of poeple running the dungeons, which is also my experience.

    @Lipzipper.3160 said:

    • I want rng ADDED "note that", to the dungeons by allowing dungeon gear to drop from bosses ALONGSIDE the currency and vendors. (Low drop % obviously.)

    More rng, I'm sure people will get right on that idea of supporting this. Wasn't one of your approaches dungeons were supposed to provide incentive for people with all the skins? What you should have said is, you want increased dungeons rewards to make the content more enticing. As is, not needed, dungeons are rewarding enough.

    -------- I proposed adding additional rng alongside the currency and loot because I also suggested reducing all the dungeons to one path each. This would cut the content considerably, but it's of my opinion that the quality is at such a low rate that it has no value as gameplay in the modern game.

    @Lipzipper.3160 said:

    • I do NOT suggest new dungeons to be added. (the 8 dungeons from vanilla is enough as pillar content.)

    Great, because they won't. This also divides the audience which you are intending to reach even further. You are now down to people who do not feel new dungeons are needed, yet feel the need that old dungeons require a complete revamp. That's going very niche imo.

    ------- I am not trying to cater to anyone, simply raise concern for the negative impact the dungeons have for leaving such a bad first impression on many players first group experience.

    I'm going to address the rest of your points simply by saying:

    Yes, 5+ year old content which has no work seen on it will feel dated and not be up to par with current quality of the game.

    ------- Obviously. I dont think that content was good even then though. When I bought Gw2 in 2013 I leveled to 80 and quit the game because of it.
    I picked up the game anew in 2014 to check things out.

    Yes, dungeons could get a complete revamp/rework to bring them up to speed.

    ---------- Agree, but not with a rework as lack for a better phrase "you can't polish a kitten"

    No, this is not so easy and would require massive developer hours as well as new design and implementation of rewards and a reward structure.

    ------ I never claimed this to be a simple endeavour, I am also willing to sacrifice end game development for a time for the long term benefit of the game.

    Yes, new players are left out to dry as far as dungeons are concerned. If this is to big an issue, make dungeon story lines all level 80. It's not as though a big part of the player base runs them at sub 80 anyway.

    ------ I already suggested this, as a simpler solution.

    Any type of work done on dungeons is competing with work which could be done on other parts of the game. As such, the cost-benefit analysis disfavors change to dungeons just as it disfavors a redesign of Living World Season 1 (something a lot of players would love to see reintroduced into the game). So it won't happen.'

    --- I am biased here, I consider Gw2s best part to be its combat and its worst to be storytelling (especially some dialogue that has me cringe, but anyway.) I understand the want and respect it. I do think that revamping the dungeons would benefit the game more because people do play it regularly though.
    If they announced LW1 tomorrow you wouldnt hear any complaints from me.

    -- Thank you for a detailed and serious post, we both obviously wish the game good.

  • @Illconceived Was Na.9781 said:
    ANet isn't going to spend any energy changing dungeons except to fix exploits or completely game-breaking bugs, not if they want to keep working on fractals (which they do).

    @Lipzipper.3160 said:
    Don't update dungeons, revamp them.

    Delete the paths, and replace them with a SINGLE "path" per dungeon that is balanced in reward and challenge.

    ANet has released 16 fractals since November 12, 2012, that's a rate of one every 3.75 months. If you count only the new ones since the first set (and include revamps), that's 10 in the same period, a rate of one every 6 months. Gutting each dungeon and replacing its 3 explorable paths with a single new path would take at least 2.5 years (but probably would take closer to 4 years), during which time, we'd have no new fractals. And, at the end, things would be less replayable than they are now.

    Or we can wait for ANet to release 9 more fractals (including the one next week), which is likely to take another 3-4 years (unless ANet starts speeding up the release of new instances). At that point, our attitudes with be very, very different.

    I also enjoy new content, a simple solution that I suggested is to make all dungeons be lvl 80 req for the benefit of the game, but that alone would not make such an ordeal to write a post about now would it ;)

  • @maddoctor.2738 said:
    I see zero point in doing such a massive revamp on dungeons.
    a) The dungeon crowd will complain anyway, they want new dungeons and not revamps, just take a look at fractals, they got massive revamps, yet people only count "3 new Fractals in 2 years"
    b) Old dungeons cannot be monetized, there is zero reason to buy an expansion to play dungeons (especially at their normal levels), no need to use elite specs, no need to get ascended gear and so on. Anet won't get more sales by revamping old dungeons
    c) Dungeons were created with the oldest possible toolset. The team that created and used it is gone. This means that a revamp isn't possible without allocating more resources than creating new dungeons altogether
    d) If it requires such massive changes to "fix" them, why not make new dungeons instead?

    Someday Arenanet will realize that Fractals cannot be monetized, as you do not need to buy an expansion to play them. Maybe you'll need to buy one of the two expansions in order to get the Core Tyria mastery abilities that work in Fractals and that's it. But if you don't do T4s, you don't need the latest meta elite specs, you don't need the extra agony, therefore you can play Fractals as a free player just fine.
    On the other hand, dungeons with an expansion theme? You will be required to buy the expansion to play those. Plus Fractals require extra time to be added due to the reward system, adding new dungeons would be much easier, so it's a clear win-win situation.

    I never wanted Anet to fix the dungeons. The dungeons themself are the instances (maps), all of the events inside can be replaced, same map, different content.
    Everytime Anet recieves more money it makes me happy, and I do believe that the current dungeons are making anet lose money because new player quit before they have the opportunity to play the good content. That money is spent on development, which has been really noticable in the modern quality of the game.

  • @Meiko Isamura.6352 said:
    Pre HoT there was an active dungeon community that wanted new dungeons. Fractals existed then too but there was a much more active dungeon community that is now dead because Anet decided to not make new dungeons with the expansions. Anet has been making new fractals its true and made changes to them, but the fractal community was never as large or as active as the dungeon one was, same with raids. Its Anet's game so they make it how they want, but looking at how dead the game is becoming maybe it was a mistake to not continue to keep existing communities in the game alive instead of trying to push players into content that Anet wants them to do. I think WvW community can relate on some level. You can say what you want about the dungeon meta and tactics, but to be a good dungeon runner you had to know your class. You had to know your different weapon skills for fields, blasts, and movement and burst dps rotation. You had to be able to quickly swap weapons and traits, and move as a team, it was a lot of precision to do. These skills are now mostly dead in the game and many players don't know much of their class. Nothing I'm saying hasn't been already said before both before and after HoT. If Anet wants to revamp the mostly dead dungeon community then make new dungeons. I agree with the OP that dungeons should give players warnings about the level requirements for them, cause they are very difficult at their "suggested" level. I don't think that anything else they suggested is a good idea. Its simple, make new dungeons or just keep doing what you are doing Anet if you like how your game is going the last 2-3 years.

    Simplified my opinion is that the dungeons are at such a low quality it deter players away from the game before they even get to experience the good content. The type of gameplay you mention can as I said be fun if everyone is in on it, but it should not be required to have to read up on guides how to defeat the dungeon. Most wipes in dungeons atm is caused by experienced players trying to force new players throught the very as you said precise gameplay, which is stale, repetetive and unimprovising IMO.

  • @nosleepdemon.1368 said:
    I didn't read your post OP, I was gonna, but it's long. Look, in short anything a dungeon can do, fractals can do better. They are just a way more convenient and fun way to do the whole dungeon thing. Plus they have a reward structure already setup, and a neat little tier system that enables reuse of the same levels with just a few tweaks to their mechanics. Dungeons are way too 2012.

    <3 I wrote about this in my post. Fractals are, and have always been the way to go onward and thats what I want. The dungeons hurt the game with their horrible quality and deter players from trying out fractals in the first place imo

  • @zealex.9410 said:
    "Skipping... It's maybe THE worst gameplay in Guild Wars 2. " And theres goes any thumbs up you may had from me up until that point. And any point afterwards for that matter...

    It is horrble, and seeing 30k achievment players with 250 mastery points flaming 100 achiev players for not knowing how to makes me really sad and it hurts the game.
    When i talk gameplay I talk combat, if I was unclear. I understand why we skip, I just want us to not have a desire to and that requires a change to the game.

  • @serialkicker.5274 said:

    @Kheldorn.5123 said:

    @serialkicker.5274 said:

    @zealex.9410 said:
    "Skipping... It's maybe THE worst gameplay in Guild Wars 2. " And theres goes any thumbs up you may had from me up until that point. And any point afterwards for that matter...

    So, stealth and run to the final chest is gameplay for you? You heard that Anet? Just make a long corridor, fill them with mobs and put chest at the end. People want to run, Anet! No need to waste your money and time for anything meaningful.

    Skipping can be challenge itself.

    Sorry, but this is the worst joke I've heard this week.

    It is of course a challenge to a player who havent got the knowledge on combofield mechanic etc. Id hate to tell a new player to come back later after he/she has read some guides on how to exploit the game design. It IS a bad design because you can skip parts not intended to, even bosses.

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