Underwater Content in GW 2's Future - (A new and necessary experience)

One of the biggest things I want most in GW 2 is for the underwater gameplay to finally be advanced. There is no other MMORPG that does UW as good as GW 2 IMO and it's still only in its core/basic design. I can only imagine how much more it can be explored and built upon. I love all the content that has come so far in Living World, expansions, patches, ect., but I'm ready for a new and fresh experience that I haven't had before in any MMO including GW 2 and there is so much potential waiting in an UW-focused content release.

It's easy to base your idea of such content on what we have now. Difficult movement, "impossible" targeting, unusable skills, unusable weapons, unfinished mechanics, ect. But seeing over the years how the GW 2 devs have taken major MMO features and redesigned them into something amazing that even the most skeptical players once detested, I have the utmost faith in the devs that they could make UW an experience that would change many player's perceptions of that type of content.

I want to see those who absolutely hate UW mechanics... BLOWN AWAY, impressed, and now considering more UW content. We've had plenty of land-based gameplay. A decent amount of sky gameplay with the new expansions. UW is an untouched place just waiting to be explored and developed.

Sorry, I do not follow you on that. I do not like underwater combat.I know that many players like it and would enjoy more UW content. I can understand that and would have nothing against it, as long as it remains something optional (not an activity mandatory to progression).So, as long as optional, it would be very much OK for me. I would not "touch" it. But I would hate being forced to an UW content.

Yes.. I agree.

I HATE UW Mechanics.

Anytime I have to go UW for a section, I growl. :)

Sure, they could re-work the mechanics... make it more fun, but that definitely would have to happen before I would want to explore, or be forced to explore, a major underwater zone.

C

I've suggested it before and I'll suggest it again...Underwater combat mounts (possibly in the form of vehicles) . Use those to fix the movement issues while developing a new, engaging combat system around those new mounts.I think new underwater combat should be focused on ranged encounters, making the best use of the action camera. Underwater evades are awkward at best, and I think focus should instead be placed on blocks and improved mobility. Another possibility is a mount/vehicle that uses Mirage-style evades instead of dodge rolls.

When we think of UW, we assume it means only swimming around, but try opening your mind to all the ways we haven't explored UW areas yet. There could be cities within large force fields or bubbles where you can walk around (think Star Wars: The Phantom Menace - Gungan City). There could be ways to propel yourself quickly and accurately in directions or to spots you want to end up in easily and then be able to walk on the ocean floor or other surfaces (at any angle) as if you were on land. These could be abilities you unlock with masteries. Now imagine going around Tyria and revisiting deep bodies of water no longer feeling bothered by them, in fact finding them fun to travel through because of how much faster you can get around in them vs getting around on land.

There could be UW transit or tunnel systems that work similar to waypoints or Nuhock Wallows, where you can fast travel to other bodies of water around the world map instantly or get to new cities, guild halls, exclusive areas (like the mistlock sanctuary), ect.

Oceans and bodies of water take up a large part of Tyria. If players are avoiding them because of a neglected UW gameplay system, then players are avoiding a large part of the world. We've spent enough time on the ground. There's more to the world than that.

@"Dreamy Lu.3865" said:So, as long as optional, it would be very much OK for me. I would not "touch" it. But I would hate being forced to an UW content.

This.We do have some UW exploration once in a while, but it's something which overall sucks due to the fact you can move 360 degrees with no limits.

• ANET stopped to develop UW content as they do in the old Tyria
• Removed UW combat in both SPvP and WvW, becuase it was ugly, unbalanced and unwanted.

• ANET stopped to develop UW weapons ( Elonian Weapons, Awakened weapons, etc... )

Underwater exploration could be an extra, story related ( though we do remember the underwater personal story part ) or map related.Or even an extra, a way to reach a hidden poi or mastery.Or maybe a underwater tunnel which bring you in a underground city with no water at all ( maybe some puddles ).

And ofc, it must only be exploration related ( no mobs, no bosses, no events ).

They should find instead a way to reuse the UW skins on ground weapons.

I hate mounts on most MMOs, I find them repetitive, cluttering, uninteresting, and and I didn't wanted them in GW2. Yet they were able to make actually decent, beautiful mounts for PoF. I still would have chosen not to have them, but since they are here, I have to admit they are really well done. However, they ARE MANDATORY if you want to complete the expa, and top "QoL creep" for the rest of the game. Not using them is just self detrimental.

On the contrary, I DO like UW, and I think they should expand on it, because it is original, interesting, aesthetically potent and a clear distinguishing factor for the game. I want them to make an UW Improvement just like they did Mounts: mandatory for the next expa, and a extreme QoL boost in the rest of the game. For me, its just fair.

Excelsior.

I don't want underwater and/or underwater combat the slightest.First, I am losing my profession more or less. Also, I am not a fan of gargling sounds, delayed controls and as said, what skills is a thief / deadeye supposed to use? I mean, you don't want to introduce "underwater professions" or such nonsense, are you?

I think it should be more incorporated into the game, actually with limited oxygen (let's say 3 minutes or something), to have a Tomb Raider'ish feeling to it.Near the PoF starting zone, there is that secluded isle, and without the Springer, I always tried to get onto it (I could "land" on a patch of beach but not reach anything) and tried to swim into it or finding another way. No dice. But that would be fine. Tomb Raider Classic (2 and 3 to be more precise) had a bit of underwater combat, but the rest was "don't drown while find the switch" sort of thing.

@Zedek.8932 said:Excelsior.

I don't want underwater and/or underwater combat the slightest.First, I am losing my profession more or less. Also, I am not a fan of gargling sounds, delayed controls and as said, what skills is a thief / deadeye supposed to use? I mean, you don't want to introduce "underwater professions" or such nonsense, are you?

I think it should be more incorporated into the game, actually with limited oxygen (let's say 3 minutes or something), to have a Tomb Raider'ish feeling to it.Near the PoF starting zone, there is that secluded isle, and without the Springer, I always tried to get onto it (I could "land" on a patch of beach but not reach anything) and tried to swim into it or finding another way. No dice. But that would be fine. Tomb Raider Classic (2 and 3 to be more precise) had a bit of underwater combat, but the rest was "don't drown while find the switch" sort of thing.

I've been fine with GW2's underwater combat, most other MMO's I've played have some sort of drowning mechanic which might sound exciting, but isn't when you have to swim to the surface like a chore and waste time. Wouldn't be surprised to see those underwater professions at some point though, I mean there's a whole ocean worth of potential content out there between us and Cantha.

I know ANet has abandoned UW totally and is not showing any sign of coming back to it.I really like(d) UW a lot in this game and it made the world feel a lot more immersive, when there actually was something down in that lake.I hope they revisit/rework UW some day and make it a part of the game again.The thing about UW, or rather ANet's approach to it, that I don't like at all is the lazyness when it comes to UW and some of the new elites. They did better in PoF than with HoT, granted, but still, things like the new revenant spec again not being available UW is bothersome for me.

I could see a tropical island expansion, maybe even with some icebergs in a LS episode with SOME underwater combat. But not all underwater combat.

Everyone is quick to say they don't want Underwater combat, just as many has said the same about mounts. I also find underwater clunky and annoying, one major problem I find is being unable to judge distance/range for both ranged and melee. So far underwater has been fun solely for the mesmer spear 2 and 5? skill to get that speed boost. I agree many things would have to be revamped and balanced.

But keep an open mind, who knows what they can do with it if they choose to invest in it and revamp everything.

Like someone said above, there could be masteries to make travel amazing, maybe even walkable.

We can't say we won't like it, until they've had the opportunity to revamp everything. We are only saying we don't want it based on our current experience. You don't know what it can become.

I would say it's a long way away, as much as I'd like to see it happen and see it become enjoyable. It would probably have to come with the Cantha expansion if we get that? And also Largos and all? Where the Quaggan, Krait, etc come from?

No high hopes for it yet, but I do want to see it. I wouldn't mind a full underwater expansion, if it is an amazing experience. Yes maybe submarine ish vehicles since we have airships, maybe underwater mounts, walkable dome cities, underwater glass tube passageways, teleportation whirlpools, other skills and masteries. I'd love more complex and explorable underwater ruins too and entire civilizations waiting to be discovered

Underwater combat has some issues, but none that could not be adressed with enough dedication. That dedication, however, would mean that the content could not be totally optional, which makes it a gamble. Either the rework/rebalancing is successful and the associated content is, too, or it all goes to waste. And I am not sure Anet is in a position that justifies the risk.

One of the big issue's I've noted. Is that the reason underwater combat is so lacking, Is because outside of year 1, they never updated the skills or the mechanics. Everyone going underwater is forced to use a very limited skill set because majority of their skills are disabled. New Elite Specs? Only if you want to run on land, otherwise they're nixed underwater. If Anet had taken the time to make every skill available underwater, and assigned a halfway decent balance crew to it, I'm sure it would have been perceived differently than it currently is. For Example traps could be spherical triggers, or physical attacks could be converted to grapples or some sort in water. But because there was really no good updates for underwater skills, players started saying "Underwater combat sucks." which in turn encouraged Anet to never update it in the first place. It in turn, just snowballed.

I for one did enjoy the underwater combat. Albeit, it feels clunky. But I also have to keep in mind that being underwater it's essentially 3D maneuvering combat. Which in my opinion is very hard to do in the first place. And not something that was purposely designed with the control set. It's much easier to have everything be on a plane or something close to it. Rather than having X Y and Z being all combat fields.

If we ever fight Bubbles the underwater dragon. It's either going to be on the beach or perhaps caves under the sea floor. Which I feel is kinda sad because i'd love to explore deep ocean. They could certainly make deep ocean combat more interesting if they added some kind of mount/vehicle in the game that changed the way underwater combat was designed.

Anet can't even properly balance the one combat system they put all their effort in to very well. I don't think we need them to divide that effort to overhaul an even more complex set of content that we have to interact with to get anything important done.

Let UW content be what it is already, an occasional distraction that isn't necessary to do anything important. At least that way all their guns are firing on the combat mechanics that actually mostly work well.

@PopeUrban.2578 said:Anet can't even properly balance the one combat system they put all their effort in to very well. I don't think we need them to divide that effort to overhaul an even more complex set of content that we have to interact with to get anything important done.

Let UW content be what it is already, an occasional distraction that isn't necessary to do anything important. At least that way all their guns are firing on the combat mechanics that actually mostly work well.

But that mind set is hypocritical in light of what you weigh against it........ "its serviceable" would never fly as being acceptable for any other content currently in the game. This problem has same solution to pretty much everything else Anet has done to make this game stand out; we need an innovation to change up the problem. At its most fundamental level, under water combat in this game is 6DOF; this is neither a new concept to gamers, and there has been games with 6DOF that are fun to play. The big issue here is that the baseline combat system is only designed for 2D movement, and UWC has no mechanical extensions to address that. Gliding solve a traversal problem, yet in Bloodstone Fen, Siren's Landing, Draconis Mons and several special events added a very rudimentary aerial combat setup. With LS4 coming out soon, we may see their attempts to expand on the mounts.

For Underwater combat, there are a wealth of Air combat, space combat and (holyshit) Underwater combat games to use as reference, case studies, and examples for both good and bad implementations for game systems built around a 6DOF environment. And I'm pretty sure most people would be surprised to find that 6DOF is actually much easier to implement a large number of combat mechanics; but that in reality the biggest hurdle is player spatial awareness. For a game that makes extensive use of Jumping puzzles, you'd think its playerbase would put 2 and 2 together on their own.

I HATE UW anything. The ONLY time I go UW is when it's required for story or map completion. I avoid UW so much, after 5 years playing, I still only have a rare breather and only one weapon equipped. The second is the original green weapon I put on back when I first started playing.

I absolutely hate underwater content, and it's a big reason as to why I'm currently on hiatus. Got to the water areas while working on the map completion, and it's just... urgh, no more, please.

No, it's not "necessary".

Don't make declarations like that as if you are speaking for everyone.

I personally think underwater combat is total garbage.

The lore has a sea dragon as well, I think it would be cool to add a water-focused expansion in the future.With player controlled ships, cannons, underwater mounts etc. Also a playable largos race. Maps would look like the WaterWorld movie. Some spooky deep sea minions with tentacles etc.I think it's a good idea for the fourth expansion.

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Deep_sea_dragon

I agree that GW2 does underwater combat the best out of any game I've played........but it's still underwater combat. There are so many more issues to deal with when it comes to underwater combat, the chief of which is the added dimensions available. When you are fighting in water you have to think about enemies that are above or below you in the 3 dimensional space, and this can cause a lot of confusion for players who aren't used to it. A lot of the frustration (for me at least) comes from thinking that I am on the same level as my opponent when in fact I'm not. This isn't helped either by the camera that clearly isn't designed with underwater combat in mind. If they were to rework underwater combat that would be the place I would start, so at the very least you could clearly identify your position compared to the mobs you are fighting.

@kurfu.5623 said:No, it's not "necessary".

Don't make declarations like that as if you are speaking for everyone.

I personally think underwater combat is total garbage.

You just contradicted yourself in your own post, unfortunately ruining the credibility of your opinion more than you already did in your response. You also reaffirmed the reason why UW combat needs to be advanced. I hope that was intentional.

Fortunately, there are many players who want more than the same and the old and UW content in the future holds much for our surprise.

@Opopanax.1803 said:I could see a tropical island expansion, maybe even with some icebergs in a LS episode with SOME underwater combat. But not all underwater combat.

I was thinking it could be part of the expansion that comes with Cantha. As another player mentioned, we could explore some UW content on our way to Cantha as we go through the ocean. The content doesn't have to be 100% UW, but having that as a part of the game serves as a way to introduce a new, redesign of UW content.

When I started, the first time I went swimming underwater, I remember thinking, "Wow! They even made amazing scenery down here! So much work went into this game"

I would like to see more underwater content. Not TOO much, because of the awkward mobility. :D But definitely some. And I really like Cyrin's suggestion of underwater cities in a bubble or whatever, so you could enjoy some of that fantastic ocean scenery while walking around on your feet.

How to fix uw combat:Disable all skills underwater.Then create 10 utility skills for every class that emphasize that class. 2 elite skills for underwater as well.For the revenant create one legend to the core model thats exclusive for underwater, like some naga or largos. There, balanced.Then create an underwater mount for mobility.Anything else? I’d be good to go