https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Bull%27s_Charge

Lets be honest here.....its kinda ridiculously powerful now in wvsw/pve.https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Bull%27s_Charge

I think some of the values here need to be changed...

=3 second stun is too much. make it 2.5 seconds=The range of this thing is insane, make it 800=the damage value of this thing.....I have no idea why they made it so high tbh, but I don't get why it needs to be so high.

and the last suggestion, and I KNOW people wont like this, is to make the start of the animation more visible.

Most warrior run this with headbutt by default....and there are just TOO many target lock skills to have to watch for and dodge/react to atm. Shield 4...berserk mode taunt....f2's.....f1's.....headbutt....AND bulls rush?!?!

I think the main argument why its ok is that you are trading via utility slots. So you got 3 slots. Most warriors ideally want berserker stance, endure pain as 2 of those slots. Leaving 1 left, and generally you are trading a stun break or stabiity in many cases for the bulls rush.

BUt.....my counter argument is: Look at the berserker line....it gives you a stun break, it gives you stability, it gives you everything you otherwise lose.I think bulls charge should be tweaked more.

MAYBE...we lower the cooldown in exchange for the tweaks? Just i'd rather have 15 second bulls charges that do half the values than this 25-30 second one that BRINGS ALL THIS ontop of our other lockdown skills.

ALl our lockdown is single target.....which is a problem in itself. And honestly I can't see much sympathy being generated towards lowering the burst effect of bulls charge due to this problem.

...REGARDLESS, I maintain its an issue...that we shouldn't overlook just cause other things are unfair.

PvE ??!!

Anyway its fair in my book, just look at https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Rocket_Boots

It's a one trick pony that hits one target. dodge it and the warrior is out one utility skill that could have been resistance, stabiilty, or endure pain.

Headbutt and Shield Bash were both made more obvious. Why would you want to do the same for Bull's Charge? The entire class has been built around lock down to deliver much of our most telegraphed damage. Nerfing skills that allow us to do that strikes at the heart of the class' competitiveness. It's why the approach they took with HB and SB was worse than straight damage and cd nerfs.

Bulls charge is fine.It kills teefs in wvw. Im loving it.

welp the response was about as much as I expected. lol. No argument has been presented why it shouldn't be tinkered with, so I still think it should be. Tinkered doesn't have to mean nerf you know....it just means changed here and there.

I did expect one of you to be like "DO YOU EVEN PLAY WARRIOR? LEARN TO PLAY FIRST", but maybe I simply have to wait a few more days for that.

I'll throw some logs on the fire though here: You realize how much running away bulls charge permits people to do in pve/wvsw right? Its ridiculous, we are labelled as cowards and rightly so.

900 RANGEEEEEEE WITH BUILT IN EVADEEE

Warrior lacks reliable way to land damage. Bullcharge was in a right direction, but still not enough.Warrior can 1v1 people on point, sure, but if your enemy onpoint brawler(engi, ranger) decides to not 1v1 you but kit you on point, you have no way to kill the enemy, even hes on point. add evade to bullcharge makes it finally a 5v5 viable skill and a decent competitor for endure pain

Berserker gives you stab, ok, but what line you give up for berserker? strength? you give up might makes right, you can't give up defense or discipline for power.oh if you give up strength you also lose the damage for bullcharge, so i dont really know what kind of berserker build you are running, to have high damage bullcharge from strength, while still has decent survive from defense and have essential discipline

@Cerby.1069 said:welp the response was about as much as I expected. lol. No argument has been presented why it shouldn't be tinkered with, so I still think it should be. Tinkered doesn't have to mean nerf you know....it just means changed here and there.

I did expect one of you to be like "DO YOU EVEN PLAY WARRIOR? LEARN TO PLAY FIRST", but maybe I simply have to wait a few more days for that.

I'll throw some logs on the fire though here: You realize how much running away bulls charge permits people to do in pve/wvsw right? Its ridiculous, we are labelled as cowards and rightly so.

900 RANGEEEEEEE WITH BUILT IN EVADEEE

You made a poorly reasoned argument for reducing the effectiveness of a skill on a subforum full of people who use that skill. What did you expect, a parade in your honour? Counterpoints were made, you just chose to ignore them.

@Choppy.4183 said:

@Cerby.1069 said:welp the response was about as much as I expected. lol. No argument has been presented why it shouldn't be tinkered with, so I still think it should be. Tinkered doesn't have to mean nerf you know....it just means changed here and there.

I did expect one of you to be like "DO YOU EVEN PLAY WARRIOR? LEARN TO PLAY FIRST", but maybe I simply have to wait a few more days for that.

I'll throw some logs on the fire though here: You realize how much running away bulls charge permits people to do in pve/wvsw right? Its ridiculous, we are labelled as cowards and rightly so.

900 RANGEEEEEEE WITH BUILT IN EVADEEE

Counterpoints? What counterpoints? lol. are you even reading this thread? Your acting like I'm angry at the responses. I'm mad at your lunacy atm, to which you continue to surprise me on, but everything else has been as expected.

"Poorly reasoned argument".....oh please. Try again. Using tiny words to admonish the credibility of another argument is great, but you've forgotten to present an actual counter argument to take its place. Or are you hoping to rely on your likes and dislikes to dissuade any real debate to the contrary? Ya I can tell you are one of those people who use those. I don't need or use that kitten, I'll call you out for your blunders like a real man/woman/char/asura/meme.

@Lighter.5631 said:Warrior lacks reliable way to land damage. Bullcharge was in a right direction, but still not enough.Warrior can 1v1 people on point, sure, but if your enemy onpoint brawler(engi, ranger) decides to not 1v1 you but kit you on point, you have no way to kill the enemy, even hes on point. add evade to bullcharge makes it finally a 5v5 viable skill and a decent competitor for endure pain

Berserker gives you stab, ok, but what line you give up for berserker? strength? you give up might makes right, you can't give up defense or discipline for power.oh if you give up strength you also lose the damage for bullcharge, so i dont really know what kind of berserker build you are running, to have high damage bullcharge from strength, while still has decent survive from defense and have essential discipline

I mean this is by far the only real argument presented against me so far. So props for that friend.

My response would be that all power warriors run berserker stats to begin with in pve and wvsw......so that's where this "mysterious power value" is coming from. I hate to spoil it for you, but traits ARE NOT the foundation of a warrior's damage. There...... you are free to post a counter argument, or you can post something like Choppy here has a knack for doing.

I am still wondering how Bull's Charge being OP in PvE ??!! lol

Bulls Charge is only OP to the bads that cant read telegraphs. It's not used at a high level precisely because of large telegraphs and players can/should get better at dealing with this underused spvp class instead of further reducing its viability.

@ opWar alrdy has the most telegraphed skills and now you want to make bullcharge even more visible?Yeah lets nerf the gs, hammer, and longbow speed cause they are way to fast.....

But the animation is already visible. All the warrior's skill animations are clear as day. To be honest, I think the only way you can land them right now is to be so much better vs the opponent or take advantage of an opponent currently fighting against an ally.

in the realm of gw2 class forums, a good skill is an OP skill and must be nerfed

@Cerby.1069 said:

@Choppy.4183 said:

@Cerby.1069 said:welp the response was about as much as I expected. lol. No argument has been presented why it shouldn't be tinkered with, so I still think it should be. Tinkered doesn't have to mean nerf you know....it just means changed here and there.

I did expect one of you to be like "DO YOU EVEN PLAY WARRIOR? LEARN TO PLAY FIRST", but maybe I simply have to wait a few more days for that.

I'll throw some logs on the fire though here: You realize how much running away bulls charge permits people to do in pve/wvsw right? Its ridiculous, we are labelled as cowards and rightly so.

900 RANGEEEEEEE WITH BUILT IN EVADEEE

@Lighter.5631 said:Warrior lacks reliable way to land damage. Bullcharge was in a right direction, but still not enough.Warrior can 1v1 people on point, sure, but if your enemy onpoint brawler(engi, ranger) decides to not 1v1 you but kit you on point, you have no way to kill the enemy, even hes on point. add evade to bullcharge makes it finally a 5v5 viable skill and a decent competitor for endure pain

Berserker gives you stab, ok, but what line you give up for berserker? strength? you give up might makes right, you can't give up defense or discipline for power.oh if you give up strength you also lose the damage for bullcharge,

so i dont really know what kind of berserker build you are running, to have high damage bullcharge from strength, while still has decent survive from defense and have essential discipline

wait...you use bullcharge in pve? you think bullcharge having evade and damage is too much in pve?.....bullcharge is never used in pve, it's literally a damage lose if you use bullcharge in pve, unless you are doing map completion...if in that sense, you think bullcharge is too OP for map completion, i dont know what to say...and yes, traits are the foundation of a warrior's damage....like..what?..

If bull's charge is too OP for map completion and needs to be nerfed because of that, thief class would have to be removed from the game completely lol and tbh this whole discussion is ridiculous

I always loved bulls charge.. but it was bad compared too 3x stances or 2x stances with something like signet of might.. now i can finally swap 1 for bulls charge (so i run 1 less stunbreak/stability) and somehow you want to nerf it because its a good skill now?

It has too be good to even get used.. there are tons of other utilities on other classes that are just as good.. why cant bulls?

@Cerby.1069 said:welp the response was about as much as I expected. lol. No argument has been presented why it shouldn't be tinkered with, so I still think it should be. Tinkered doesn't have to mean nerf you know....it just means changed here and there.

I did expect one of you to be like "DO YOU EVEN PLAY WARRIOR? LEARN TO PLAY FIRST", but maybe I simply have to wait a few more days for that.

I'll throw some logs on the fire though here: You realize how much running away bulls charge permits people to do in pve/wvsw right? Its ridiculous, we are labelled as cowards and rightly so.

900 RANGEEEEEEE WITH BUILT IN EVADEEE

Lol @ running away

We are still complaning about nike warriors?? In wvw i dont feel that fast anymore.. i see druids doing that much better.. or even if i run away. Thiefs and revs will get me no problem. Even guardians

I think the OP's just saying that a skill combining mobility (removes immobilize when traited), evade, hard CC (3s), a leap (so can combo) and damage (when traited), all that in a short CD, might be a little bit too strong. Do you guys really find this unreasonable?

In a balance based on power creep, when other utilities as strong as this one exist, when classes have way too much means to defend themselves, I don't find it particularly offensive, although I could probably do without the damage part. At least the change revitalizes physical skills over stances, especially with the upcoming Spellbreaker and its Dispelling Force.

The primary goal of ANet is to build their game so that players derive a good part of their fun from breezing through it, in a casual way. Competitive balancing - PvP and WvW - matters only when not conflicting with this goal, something many of us sometimes regret.

@Elegie.3620 said:I think the OP's just saying that a skill combining mobility (removes immobilize when traited), evade, hard CC (3s), a leap (so can combo) and damage (when traited), all that in a short CD, might be a little bit too strong. Do you guys really find this unreasonable?

In a balance based on power creep, when other utilities as strong as this one exist, when classes have way too much means to defend themselves, I don't find it particularly offensive, although I could probably do without the damage part. At least the change revitalizes physical skills over stances, especially with the upcoming Spellbreaker and its Dispelling Force.

The primary goal of ANet is to build their game so that players derive a good part of their fun from breezing through it, in a casual way. Competitive balancing - PvP and WvW - matters only when not conflicting with this goal, something many of us sometimes regret.

Too strong relative to what though? The main thing that changed since last year was the addition of an evade, which effectively makes it uninterruptible. The cd, the distance, and the knockdown have all been the same for about a year or more. I guess it got a damage buff... sure, as you say, take that. We're not really talking about that much power creep here, and, as others have pointed out, it's now competing with other arguably equally strong utilities.

@Choppy.4183 said:Too strong relative to what though? The main thing that changed since last year was the addition of an evade, which effectively makes it uninterruptible. The cd, the distance, and the knockdown have all been the same for about a year or more. I guess it got a damage buff... sure, as you say, take that. We're not really talking about that much power creep here, and, as others have pointed out, it's now competing with other arguably equally strong utilities.

I was using Bull's Charge before the buff, along with Last Stand. Although I considered the skill a bit weak, even with Peak Performance, I still found it viable. The buff brought the evade and the additional damage, plus reinforced Peak Performance (level 3 guaranteed damage, and merge with Death From above). The best of these changes was definitely the evade (I'd drop the skill out of disappointment if it were removed now).

I don't know whether it's become too strong or not. As said, there are tons of others utilities which are similarly strong, across all classes. Plus all classes have so much stability, stun breakers, blocks, that a skill such as Bull's Charge can still be partly countered (but not interrupted/blinded anymore, take that thieves). I'm just saying the OP's position isn't irrelevant.

@Elegie.3620 said:

@Choppy.4183 said:Too strong relative to what though? The main thing that changed since last year was the addition of an evade, which effectively makes it uninterruptible. The cd, the distance, and the knockdown have all been the same for about a year or more. I guess it got a damage buff... sure, as you say, take that. We're not really talking about that much power creep here, and, as others have pointed out, it's now competing with other arguably equally strong utilities.

Dont blame bulls charge for the power creep :)Its just what happend to most stuff in this game.. yes its strong and would be OP in 2012.. but its 2017 now where all skills do shitloads of stuff all combined into 1 skill..Just look at old warrior weapon skills.. they do pretty much nothing (dmg.).. where new 2017 skills on elites or not do 4-5 things at once.. dmg+condi+unblock or + rip/steal boon or + evade + immume to blind or whatever.. you name it..

Its what needed to be relevant in this game these days.

I love the old days. Many do. Where skills where doing 1 thing. Thats loooong gone now.

Sorry..

But for now i am using bulls charge.. just loving that feeling again haha

Brings me back to 2012 warrior feelings :)

IIf i recall right on Vanilla Release,Bull's Charge was pretty close to its current state...at some point,however,it was kinda "nerfed" to the point where it wasnt worth anymore.But Is it really that strong as it is atm?!In my opinion no,you know why?!Because most of the players are not used to deal with it anymore.

Back in the days Bull's charge was a common utility skill for warriors: knockdown,huge mobility...and ofc people complained about it.What could u expect from a GS warrior?!Bull's charge =>hundred blades...and at that time it was the GG combo.OFC it was a good combo but it was also really easy to negate...and it didnt take that long for players to figure it out: expect it and dodge it.Yes it was still effective vs newcomers,they didnt know (and u could actually tell if they were new to pvp just by that).On the other hand vs experienced players...good luck on landing one:

• so easy to predict
• so easy to bait
• so easy to dodge

What could u do as a warrior back then?! Bait their dodge (BAIT WARS)...and thats when shield 4 came in help,after that?!It was the time for Bolas to shine.

Nowdays there are so many different mechanics and alot of changes & "fixes" have occurred: if u think about it,just the current "condi spammage meta" force you to take certain utilities and traits because u have to.In 6 days there will be scourges shielding everything,mirages dodging and casting at the same time,deadeyes sniping you from downtown...soulbeast with 3 heals,new runes (mostly condi oriented).I dont see how bull's charge needs a nerf atm. :)

Bull's Charge is perfectly fine. You need to trait into it through the strength trait line in order for it to be worth the damage along with the CD reduction. The evade was needed as it was far too easy to interrupt and dodge.

PvE? Wut? Why would someone use Bull's Rush in PvE? I'm just going to assume your main concern is with WvW.

Even then, it's a single target utility skill that does negligible damage if untraited, and already has a pretty obvious tell that makes it quite easy to dodge. Against a decent player the only way to land it is to bait dodges beforehand, and even then they'll probably block it or something. Not to mention that when it does land, it can always be negated with a stun break, meaning that at the end of the day you and your target basically trade the use of a utility skill.

The only reason it's popular is because Warrior lacks mobility and the ability to stick to targets to begin with. On its own it's not really an amazing skill, there are many more that are far, far more powerful, both in the Warrior kit and in other classes. But it's incredibly handy if you don't want literally everyone to be able to disengage you whenever they want, which is still a huge issue for Warriors. I don't really see how it's OP - if anything, it's usable simply because of the problems of the Warrior as a whole, and it can and should be replaced by other utilities in many situations. Make it any less useful and it'll be back gathering dust with Throw Bolas.

Also, do people still play Berserker in pvp/wvw? Pretty sure right now Core Warrior is better nine times out of ten.