More flexible Raids — Guild Wars 2 Forums

More flexible Raids

Kapax.3801Kapax.3801 Member ✭✭✭
edited November 23, 2017 in Fractals, Dungeons, and Raids

I play since 2012, the day they put the Raids I thought it would be fun to do it, I never killed any raid boss, and the only time I went in for a "training" I started thinking "God, this is so ridiculous, in no other MMO there is something similar, a training raid ", while I was in that "training " I realized that if I failed to make my rotation everything was lost and that made me think that it was ridiculous to depend on all do their rotations "religiously".

To that I add the great elitism that there is when making this content. That it's not a surprise that that elite represents a very small part of the community.
I remember that months after the raids appeared, there was an API page where it revealed the number of people who had killed even if it was a leader of the raids, and I think it did not exceed 21% or less.

This finally leads me to think, the Raids need a more flexible version than there is now? I say, the Raids now should not touch it, but based on them, make a more flexible version to finally break that elitism and be a content for everyone to really enjoy.

In case you have chosen the "yes" answer, in what aspect would you like them to be more flexible?

Less damage?
Less life?
Simpler mechanics?
Break with Meta build?
Reduce the reward?

I know that Anet has said and repeated "it is not planned", but the years go by, every time there are people who ditch the game for various reasons, and every time there are new people who come in and this content is still playing for the same as always until they get tired and stop playing it and that becomes obsolete content because in the end nobody will play it because every time the type of play is more "casual".

And I repeat again, I do not want them to modify the current difficulty, but to add a new one that is more flexible (like the forgotten dungeons that have their explorable version and history).

More flexible Raids 98 votes

Yes, a more flexible version (without modifying the current difficulty)
33% 33 votes
No, they're perfect like that.
55% 54 votes
I do not care if they put a more flexible version or not.
11% 11 votes

Comments

  • No, raids are fine as they are, if you're mechanically good you'll be able to clear them no matter what, they are very lenient DPS wise.

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭

    There is no need to change the Raid format (yet)
    I suspect with expansion 3, when the average player would need to Raid once every day for 2-3 hours to clear all Raid wings, they might consider doing something.
    Of course that's provided they do not offer power creep to make Raids easier, instead of changing their mechanics.

  • Zenith.7301Zenith.7301 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Only thing I want for raids is a progress tracker so these morons can stop asking me for kill trophies because apparently linking the mini isn't enough for them.

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Kapax.3801 said:
    I play since 2012, the day they put the Raids I thought it would be fun to do it, I never killed any raid boss, and the only time I went in for a "training" I started thinking "God, this is so ridiculous, in no other MMO there is something similar, a training raid ", while I was in that "training " I realized that if I failed to make my rotation everything was lost and that made me think that it was ridiculous to depend on all do their rotations "religiously".

    First off, there is tons of training raids in other MMOs, in WoW they are called LFG raids and normal mode (one could argue heroic is also quite simple). At the same time, other games allow players to outgear content heavily to make up for their poor skills. That indeed is less possible here.

    On topic of religiously having to perform your rotation etc.

    Top players have been completing raids in green gear(https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Item that's 40% less stats than ascended and 35% less than exotic), with significantly fewer players and in record times. I'm sorry but no, raids are not that hard. Yes, they can be challenging when starting out because you are essentially in a group of 5-10 inexperienced players where the amount of problems and lack of proper player skill will multiply its effect making raids seem impossible.

    @Kapax.3801 said:

    To that I add the great elitism that there is when making this content. That it's not a surprise that that elite represents a very small part of the community.
    I remember that months after the raids appeared, there was an API page where it revealed the number of people who had killed even if it was a leader of the raids, and I think it did not exceed 21% or less.

    21% is a very significant and quite large number as far as players go. You are likely referring to GW2efficiency which tracks all this kind of stuff.

    There has been tons of posts about how to get into raiding, how to start raiding, how to prepare and so on.

    Suffice to say, the easiest way is to join a raiding guild or practice guild which takes along new players and introduces them to the content. The benefit here is you get a feel for the encounters and the group is not overburdened with to many inexperienced players.

  • Sykper.6583Sykper.6583 Member ✭✭✭

    Absolutely not.

    I have several reasons why it is not a decent idea, but let's go with a few big ones:

    • Resources: It takes time and effort to construct and balance several versions. All those comments about 'toning damage, health, etc' by a flat amount are not an answer that works, plus instancing can create bugs which might result in the more difficult version having the health pool of the infantile mode.
    • Purpose: Raids are meant to be the most difficult content in PvE, while I can understand that raids have diminished difficulty over time as new builds, elite specs, and stats come forward to max/min encounters, with how the game is now Bosses like Vale Guardian won't ever be treated lightly enough to face towards the group to get everyone cleaved, because we can't outlevel the content. My point deviated a bit, however what really drives the purpose behind raids is that they aren't just players bashing their head against a huge beast, getting downed or defeated and rushing back into the fray with WPs and having mostly avoidable mechanics that require little practice. Raids are the polar opposite, they require some thought, skill and practice.

    I'll never agree to a group 'easier' option for raiding.

  • Feanor.2358Feanor.2358 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Zenith.7301 said:
    Only thing I want for raids is a progress tracker so these morons can stop asking me for kill trophies because apparently linking the mini isn't enough for them.

    Juts a remark - you don't need to actually have the mini to link it. You can link any mini from the mini selection dialog, regardless if it's locked or not. Minis are only a valid kill proof when equipped. But I agree, the whole KP thing is ridiculous. The essences from 100 CM are piling up and taking an inventory slot for no reason. I'd just vendor them, but then 95% of the groups will not accept me despite the LNHB.

  • Draco.9480Draco.9480 Member ✭✭✭
    edited November 24, 2017

    the only thing i want from raids is harder bosses and have an option for CM which is even harder! bosses that really demand high dps, make the enrage timer shorter.

  • Linken.6345Linken.6345 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Feanor.2358 said:

    @Zenith.7301 said:
    Only thing I want for raids is a progress tracker so these morons can stop asking me for kill trophies because apparently linking the mini isn't enough for them.

    Juts a remark - you don't need to actually have the mini to link it. You can link any mini from the mini selection dialog, regardless if it's locked or not. Minis are only a valid kill proof when equipped. But I agree, the whole KP thing is ridiculous. The essences from 100 CM are piling up and taking an inventory slot for no reason. I'd just vendor them, but then 95% of the groups will not accept me despite the LNHB.

    And thats becouse you could have just bought your LNHB title mate.

  • CptAurellian.9537CptAurellian.9537 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Raids are fine. If anything, they are too easy on normal mode.

    Praise delta!

  • Malediktus.9250Malediktus.9250 Member ✭✭✭✭

    I am not a man of compromise. Make the raids harder and less forgiving.

  • reikken.4961reikken.4961 Member ✭✭✭

    Raids are already very flexible. The problem is people being exclusivist.
    A better question is why do people behave this way in this game and not in many others?

  • xDudisx.5914xDudisx.5914 Member ✭✭✭

    @reikken.4961 said:
    Raids are already very flexible. The problem is people being exclusivist.
    A better question is why do people behave this way in this game and not in many others?

    It is more realistic to see changes on the game than on human behavior. The developer control the game, not the way players act.

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @reikken.4961 said:
    Raids are already very flexible. The problem is people being exclusivist.
    A better question is why do people behave this way in this game and not in many others?

    It's called pugs, that's why.
    Another very simple solution to increase Raid flexibility is to disable the LFG for Raids or find a way to disallow groups of randoms of even entering one. Boom, all the problems about exclusivity, elitism and so on will disappear. They are only a problem in random groups, and this is how this game works unfortunately or have you all forgotten the 4 War + 1 Mes dungeon meta? Or the 4 Reaper + 1 Druid Fractal meta? This game's community has been since release really focused on the meta, it's nothing new for Raids. Yet static groups never relied only on that meta, and it's true for both old dungeons/fractals and of course Raids.

  • Astralporing.1957Astralporing.1957 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited November 27, 2017

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @reikken.4961 said:
    Raids are already very flexible. The problem is people being exclusivist.
    A better question is why do people behave this way in this game and not in many others?

    It's called pugs, that's why.
    Another very simple solution to increase Raid flexibility is to disable the LFG for Raids or find a way to disallow groups of randoms of even entering one. Boom, all the problems about exclusivity, elitism and so on will disappear.

    Won't work. Remember, people were pugging raids even before Anet opened LFG for squads. Anet just made official what was already happening (because they had no way to stop it anyway). And all the problems with exclusivity, toxicity and elitism can be present even without pugging. I know for a fact that those made a big mess in some of the guilds i've known.

    The whole point of a social game is to play with the people you want to play with, not be forced to play with the people you don't.

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Astralporing.1957 said:
    And all the problems with exclusivity, toxicity and elitism can be present even without pugging.

    Then the guilds that have such problems are not guilds worth being a member of.

  • ProtoGunner.4953ProtoGunner.4953 Member ✭✭✭✭

    The raids need more difficulty levels as most other MMOs now offer. They are important lorewise and should be available for everyone. Make a LFR version similar to WoW. It's a great way to see all the instances. I on my side don't have enough time to spend for one game, i. e. failing on trying a boss for 3 hours 2 times a week. I have done some bosses in the raid but I can't find the time for everything.

  • Astralporing.1957Astralporing.1957 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited November 27, 2017

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Astralporing.1957 said:
    And all the problems with exclusivity, toxicity and elitism can be present even without pugging.

    Then the guilds that have such problems are not guilds worth being a member of.

    That would definitely be true for some of them, but not for all. And also only if we're talking about toxicity alone. As far as exclusivity and elitismg goes however, raids are going to cause fragmentation of some communities not because those communities are bad, but because raids are meant by design to split playerbase.
    They create exclusivity because they're meant to be exclusive. They support elitist behaviour, because that behaviour is something that greatly improves chance of succesful runs. Those things are not players' faults. They are caused by the game design.

    The whole point of a social game is to play with the people you want to play with, not be forced to play with the people you don't.

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Astralporing.1957 said:
    They are caused by the game design.

    It's true that some other builds increase the chances, the reason we saw the holy trinity of druid/chrono/ps but as you might've noticed in the latest patch they changed that. There is still more work to be done but we are getting there.
    As for the other raid slots, the chance of a successful run when your team-mates, that are supposed to do damage, play a Weaver and spend their time dead is much lowered than the same team-mates using a build they are more comfortable with. This isn't possible in random groups, but in a static and a guild team of normal humans it should be the normal.
    There are still random groups out there that think only a Ventari Revenant can kite the hands, although the number of builds that can do it is huge. The clever design of some encounters, like Sabetha, Matthias and Slothasor remove the need of a dedicated tank. Which imo is a good choice and I hope the Raid we get on Tuesday will use fixated mechanics a lot and not "require" a proper tank. "Tanking" has no reason to exist in Guild Wars 2.

    There is exclusivity by design, but not on all slots, there is great freedom of choice in Raids. It used to be 4 free, 6 fixed, now it's 6 free, 4 fixed, we are getting there.

  • @Lunateric.3708 said:
    No, raids are fine as they are, if you're mechanically good you'll be able to clear them no matter what, they are very lenient DPS wise.

    They are not fine when the community railroads you into following a god kitten speedrun meta, leaving multiple professions in the dust.

  • @Leo Schrodingers Cat.2497 said:

    @Lunateric.3708 said:
    No, raids are fine as they are, if you're mechanically good you'll be able to clear them no matter what, they are very lenient DPS wise.

    They are not fine when the community railroads you into following a god kitten speedrun meta, leaving multiple professions in the dust.

    "Community" is the target audience problem and useless professions is a balance team problem. None of it is raid exclusive.

  • I feel that the design philosophy pertaining to raids is one relating to challenge, removing said challenge renders the concept of raiding rather pointless. It may as well be delegated to be any other PvE content at that point, as it would no longer have that unique quirk. Not to mention that once players get a sampling of the "easy" route, they rarely go back to challenge as they are rewarded either way. The path of least resistance applies itself here. Engaging content is key to a game's success, especially an mmo where player commitment is crucial to a stable community. Accessibility is fine in a controlled sense, but taken too far it can continuously damage the "intent" behind certain design choices, forgoing a solid vision for content delivery in an attempt to appease players averse to learning.

  • Daniel.5428Daniel.5428 Member ✭✭✭

    @Irokou.3215 said:
    I feel that the design philosophy pertaining to raids is one relating to challenge, removing said challenge renders the concept of raiding rather pointless. It may as well be delegated to be any other PvE content at that point, as it would no longer have that unique quirk. Not to mention that once players get a sampling of the "easy" route, they rarely go back to challenge as they are rewarded either way. The path of least resistance applies itself here. Engaging content is key to a game's success, especially an mmo where player commitment is crucial to a stable community. Accessibility is fine in a controlled sense, but taken too far it can continuously damage the "intent" behind certain design choices, forgoing a solid vision for content delivery in an attempt to appease players averse to learning.

    Friendly raid does not mean less mechanis. Friendly raid means it is more opened for all classes and builds, like D&D used to be. Making it a dps race or a quickness-must-have will just make it easier for 2-3 classes out of 9

  • @Daniel.5428 said:

    @Irokou.3215 said:
    I feel that the design philosophy pertaining to raids is one relating to challenge, removing said challenge renders the concept of raiding rather pointless. It may as well be delegated to be any other PvE content at that point, as it would no longer have that unique quirk. Not to mention that once players get a sampling of the "easy" route, they rarely go back to challenge as they are rewarded either way. The path of least resistance applies itself here. Engaging content is key to a game's success, especially an mmo where player commitment is crucial to a stable community. Accessibility is fine in a controlled sense, but taken too far it can continuously damage the "intent" behind certain design choices, forgoing a solid vision for content delivery in an attempt to appease players averse to learning.

    Friendly raid does not mean less mechanis. Friendly raid means it is more opened for all classes and builds, like D&D used to be. Making it a dps race or a quickness-must-have will just make it easier for 2-3 classes out of 9

    The player base is what adopts the paradigm of "dps race" or certain class compositions. No matter how you design the content, players will always find the most efficient and preferred way of completing said content. Thus the dps race and class bias will still be present despite the structure of the encounter. The recent changes to warrior phalanx strength and druid GoTL have made raiding a bit more flexible as is; it is a gradual process of refinement and balance.

  • Devil's Advocate here: adding different difficulty layers will increase the amount of elitism in the game.

    We already saw this in WoW with the introduction of Heroic Raids in Wrath of the Lich King, which got even worse when LFR and Mythic were introduced.

    "Beware those who would deny you access to information, for in his heart he dreams himself your master."
    Tempest, Spellbreaker, Mirage, Scourge
    [AGNY] - Eternal Agony Guild, Sanctum of Rall

  • Astralporing.1957Astralporing.1957 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Irokou.3215 said:
    I feel that the design philosophy pertaining to raids is one relating to challenge, removing said challenge renders the concept of raiding rather pointless. It may as well be delegated to be any other PvE content at that point, as it would no longer have that unique quirk. Not to mention that once players get a sampling of the "easy" route, they rarely go back to challenge as they are rewarded either way.

    That means the challenge wasn't all that interesting for those players. Why enforce it on them then?

    The whole point of a social game is to play with the people you want to play with, not be forced to play with the people you don't.

  • Henry.5713Henry.5713 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited November 30, 2017

    I'd take the current difficulty as the benchmark for an easy mode if anything and increase the difficulty from there.
    Your way of thinking is off besides. The game does not focus on raids by any means nor are you forced to raid to be able to acquire the top gear in this game. They are niche content for a niche audience. ArenaNet never intended for the majority of the population to be interested in raids to begin with.

    Anyhow, you already mentioned ArenaNet's reply to this question - why bother with another one of these discussions?

    Progress isn't made by early risers. It's made by lazy men trying to find easier ways to do something. ~ Robert Heinlein

  • flog.3485flog.3485 Member ✭✭✭

    @UnbentMars.9126 said:
    Devil's Advocate here: adding different difficulty layers will increase the amount of elitism in the game.

    We already saw this in WoW with the introduction of Heroic Raids in Wrath of the Lich King, which got even worse when LFR and Mythic were introduced.

    I am gonna play devils advocate on your devils advocate: I think the game needs to increase the amount of elitism so that different sources of elitism erupt. But the thing is, creating tiers of difficulty for raids is such a damaging and bad way of doing it. And such an arbitrary system as well.

    Build templates that allows you to create, load and share builds will create these different tiers but in a organic fashion. The big problem now is that anyone willling to go into raids whether they are new to the game, veteran but never willing to before, will always be told to check this only website made by this only "famous" guild that are quite proficient at the game while any other player won't necessarily be as proficient or willing as this guild. Anyway that is how I feel personally.

    With build templates you would at least unveil how flexible the game can be when it comes to raiding or any other hard content that is deemed difficult. That is another problem as well: so many ways of playing but so much lack of visibility.

    In short Mike O brien was right: word of mouth is so much important. And build templates convey that word of mouth in such a useful way. Because at least we won't have to specifically go out of our way outside of the game to see what is effective. We could stay in game, test some stuff and share builds with so much more convenience to unveil so much more.

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