Are elite specializations making Guild Wars 2 unattractive for new players ?

First of all I'd like to apologize for my language and my spelling skills. English is not my mouther tounge and I suffer from dyslexia.

With that beeing said I'd like to address something that bothers me for a while. I've been playing Guild Wars 2 for roughly four years while beeing more or less active ingame.I almost exclusively play pvp which is why the following issue does bother me. In the past couple of months I had to witness a lot of my ingame friends quitting the game.Most of them complaint about a lack of balancing due to powercreep and major matchmaking issues. I personally think pvp in GW 2 has improved a lot. ATMs, gamemode specific balancing and new / better rewards were important changes. Despite all of this I do agree with my friends that there are still some big issues to address.

One of them in my opion is the powercreep caused by the implementation of new elite specializations. For me as a pvp player the elite specializations are the main reason to buy a new expansion pack. With both HoT and PoF there was at least one specialization that got me excited about the expansion pack so that I bought both of them. In HoT for example I was really liked the looks and the gameplay of the reaper and the druid. For PoF I was on fire for the weaver, the holosmith, the spellbreaker, the deadeye ... yeah I like PoF. The point I want to make is, I bought these expansions because I was excited by the looks and the gameplay of the specializations, not by there strength.

As a pvp player I naturally do not like to lose a game. Therefore most of the time I play the builds and classes which are currently meta. Since the first expansion pack arrived allmost all of the meta builds were exclusively based on new elite specializations. Most of the core builds were just to weak and could not compete with the new specializations.So even though nine new specializations were added to the game, less builds were viable than before the ex-pack. With PoF so far this experince has not changed a lot. Most of the Meta builds are based on PoF specializations. Core builds or even some of HoT builds are only beeing used in unranked. In ranked games the lack of meta builds in one team often does result in a win for the opposing team. With PoF again more specs were added which resulted in less variety than before.

With most of my friends quitting and the decreasing quality of matchmaking I often think about if Guild Wars 2 is really starting to die. When Guild Wars 2 became a Free to play game I hopped that would attract enough new players to game, but how is that supposed to happen ?

If some interrested in pvp does join the game and starts playing he or she will have no real chance to compete while only beeing able to use core builds. With the experience of constantly beeing inferior to premium player who are able to use the meta elite specialization Guild Wars 2 might appeal to them as a frustrating game with a pay to win paywall for decent builds.So instead of attracting new players to play the game and buy the expansions overpowered elite specializations have the opposite effect.

With neither adding new variety to the game nor beeing suited to attract new players to the game I dont realy see the point in elite specializations. The only person who would buy an ex-pack for them is someone who does allready play the game and wants to remain competetive. But even these people, like my friends, will eventually get frustrated by the power creep and decreasing variety of builds which contrastst the great amount of unviable builds.

So how to fix all this ?

I think to attract new player and add variety to the game it is important to improve the core specializations. But improving the core specializations would also mean that you improve elite specializations because you can combine them with each other. So simply making core traits stronger is not an option. What is left is the option of nerfing elite specializations. If this is done properly the difference is strength between core builds and the different elite specialization would not be so big anymore which gives us more viable options.The issue of free to players beeing stomped on their core builds would also be addressed which hopefully does result in more of them joining the game and eventually becoming premium users.

To make a conclusion I'd like to state, that in my opinion a elite specialization should attract by unique gameplay and looks and not by strength, that will only cause more powercreep.

I'm sorry for the wall of text. Pls let me no what you think about this topic. Feel free to give feedback and to make jokes about my spelling ect.

• Niokoles

First of all, your English is great.

Second, I didn't read the entire wall of text because it was too much but yes the elite specs are rapidly ruining the game. Not because of the spec itself but because of anet's incapability to actually balance the classes in this game. I have had so many of my old guildies and buddies who I use to regularly PvP and play the game with in general who no longer play because of how unbalanced all the new specs are in comparison to the rest. Winning in PvP has come down to playing the same saturated meta builds with the new elites instead of have an variety in general. 90% of the time when I get some team mates in ranked who I can see aren't running meta builds, it is a horrible game and we get stomped.

If you take a look at metabattle, 5/6 of the 'meta' builds are all PoF elite specs. This expansion ruined the game mode much more than HoT did, and at this point it is almost fair to call the current state of the game "pay2win" since paying for the PoF classes is one of the only ways to do well and keep up with all the cancerous builds right now. People will obviously always complain, especially in this community, but right now more than ever you see the most dissatisfaction and toxicity in the PvP community and arena net continue to let it go on because they want to sell as many copies as possible.

I've played this game since launch, I have 6000 hours in the game and I'm officially done with PvP for as long as it takes these money hungry dudes to get off their butts and do their job.

Ggwp anet.

I'm having an easier time introducing people to the game since PoF came out and for the most part we are PvP players... We don't play competitively, we actually work together and on bad days we like to stomp people, make people explode, troll them with specific build set ups (Dragons maw + Deaths Judgement is our current troll around build) or what ever

It's a matter of perspective... Older players can remember the better days and can compare the old to the new and see the flaws... A newer person is just that, new. Nothing to compare too, no older days or better days, will buy $120USD mount skin pack without knowing it was over priced or having the mounts unlocked first..... Try asking a new person about the token loot system, 0/10/0/30/30 trait specs or even just how annoying it was to be turned into a MOA for 20s.

1 thing that does come up that kind of ruins our fun, 2 scourges. Newer players can't handle scourges at all even when they are just facing 1, not when the concept of conquest / point control in every other game is to stand on the point.

I didnt read it either, but yes, the elite specs are toxic for attracting new players. Discussed this in another topic as well.

The game is very friendly and good to introduce new players with open play. In PvP you can play core classes too. Of course there are only a few higly competative builds left but you can start, learn and contribute to your team.But the elite power creep is bad to hold players. It reduces diversity when you get out of bronze (or maybe silver). And diversity is a key feature for long term exitement. Many say diversity and balance don´t go together. But you need both to keep a game intresting and challenging. Of corse the more skills, traits, weapons , classes the more difficult it gets to be balance. There you need someone who is good in it, dedicates to do it and gets the back strengthened by the company and thus resources to do it and only then it becomes possible. Did it myself and it´s possible to build self regulating systems, especially when using slight rock/paper/scissor systems. (If you overstretch this it becomes anoyingly "skilless") So we are back to balance. Balance the system so it gives diversity. If you start to introduce cool super powerful things any PvP system is basically doomed....

I don't think the issue is Elite Specializations per se. I mean there's power creep, that's for sure, just look at the current state of PvP meta and you'll see that most of that is new Elites.But is the problem the elites? Or is it Arena Net?I propose the later...

Why? Because of a couple of reasons:1) They OBVIOUSLY stopped caring as much for pvp. The best proof of that is that you don't get World PvP Championships anymore. With no pros, no spectacle, there's less people getting into the game mode.2) They restrict themselves, out of OCD, laxness, or god knows what, but they restrict themselves to balancing the game very infrequently. Look at PoF at launch, Spellbreaker and Scourge where extremely OP, pretty much needing one to kill the other. And it took them weeks to do something about it, and now they fixed mirage, but those fixes left it broken (as in OP), and now we'll probably only see a change after January. And that's one of the main issues with PvP, they "don't want to break the meta mid season", if the meta is already broken, inaction only makes it worse.3) They're "too afraid" of balancing. Many times classes are left OP or useless for years because they don't do radical changes that are needed, and since the small changes are only affected each quarter of a year, it takes them too long to realize that it won't go there with small changes.4) SEASONS ARE TOO SHORT, its obviously about getting PvE players farming reward chests, not about having any semblance of competition. If you don't farm the seasons, but only play 2-3 games a day, you won't get time to "beat the odds" and get placed correctly. Unlike other games where seasons are year round, PvP is seriously hindered by this.If seasons where year round or even half a year, players would have time to get placed correctly, Arena Net wouldn't have to worry about breaking the meta, because people would have time to correct their builds after a needed balance, the sense of urgency that discourages a lot of people, will be gone... I mean it's Living World season 1 all over again, but applied to PvP.

I’ll answer the title after skimming the rant.

I don’t think elite specialisations are making GW2 unattractive at their core conceptional level. Remember they were supposed to be new play styles and allow classes to do something they previously could not do at the cost of having only 2 of the core lines available. At this level you can in many ways control the additional power players get from this new line by building in certain weaknesses into that elite line so a player either ends up fragile or has to make up for the weakness via core lines.

That isn’t the same as saying “I think ANet has done a fantastic job, well done sir, let’s celebrate with a 150yr old malt toff toff” it just means I think the idea of them is sound and that the execution is the problem. HoT elites were incredibly overpowered at launch and were left that way for years before we finally saw a reduction which wasn’t universal and more like playing Russian roulette. PoF elites on the other hand have been much more modest in comparison and I think that is one of the absolute best things about PoF, that the elite specs weren’t completely no risk, all reward like all HoT specs were. That doesn’t mean there aren’t overpowered traits and skills on the PoF elite specs just that it’s more like each spec has 1 or 2 overperforming skills or traits rather than it being the whole trait line, mechanic change, weapon and utilities that all outshine everything core like it was in HoT.

What I think is driving away far more players than anything is the kittenshow of balance we get. It’s once every 2-3 months, 6 times a year we get a balance patch, some aspects are good like the redesigning of passive skills/traits, no counterplay traits or just poor interactions and other changes are massive deep cutting nerfs that make the Grand Canyon look like a flesh wound. I would much rather have upto 10% number adjustments every month on a handful of the most overperforming skills with redesigns and more comprehensive changes (read: changes to the functions of skills) left to every 2-3 months as they require more work and testing.

TLDR: It’s the snail pace and slow balancing of them not the elite specs themselves.

@apharma.3741 said:I’ll answer the title after skimming the rant.

TLDR: It’s the snail pace and slow balancing of them not the elite specs themselves.

I skimmed your answer based on skimming...and agree. The elite specs offer more chance to have differing playstyles and more complex PvP...but held back a bit by more complex balancing issues. New players are to some extent immune from the need for 'balance', they need to find the match for their own play style and learn the mechanics so I think new specs should only help recruit new players. A game community that welcomed new PvPers would be helpful

@Noodica.5428 said:First of all, your English is great.

Second, I didn't read the entire wall of text because it was too much but yes the elite specs are rapidly ruining the game. Not because of the spec itself but because of anet's incapability to actually balance the classes in this game. I have had so many of my old guildies and buddies who I use to regularly PvP and play the game with in general who no longer play because of how unbalanced all the new specs are in comparison to the rest. Winning in PvP has come down to playing the same saturated meta builds with the new elites instead of have an variety in general. 90% of the time when I get some team mates in ranked who I can see aren't running meta builds, it is a horrible game and we get stomped.

If you take a look at metabattle, 5/6 of the 'meta' builds are all PoF elite specs. This expansion ruined the game mode much more than HoT did, and at this point it is almost fair to call the current state of the game "pay2win" since paying for the PoF classes is one of the only ways to do well and keep up with all the cancerous builds right now. People will obviously always complain, especially in this community, but right now more than ever you see the most dissatisfaction and toxicity in the PvP community and arena net continue to let it go on because they want to sell as many copies as possible.

I've played this game since launch, I have 6000 hours in the game and I'm officially done with PvP for as long as it takes these money hungry dudes to get off their butts and do their job.

Ggwp anet.

Spot on

I think it would be better to have a set of fixed builds for lower tier play. That would limit the amount of stuff people have to learn.

Nope, its not new players gonna get stomped in pvp elite skills or not. Stop trying to find reasons why your losing.

How are new players turned away from buying the game because of “power creep” when they’d likely be joining by buying the newest expansion and have access to those elite specs? “Power creep” only impacts existing players who choose not to support the game by purchasing expansions.

Many games flat out give a power boost with expansions (i.e. increase level cap) which is fairly common in MMO’s. What’s being complained about isn’t something outside the norm of an MMO player and not really a subject a player new to MMO’s would have an opinion on.

@Ayrilana.1396 said:How are new players turned away from buying the game because of “power creep” when they’d likely be joining by buying the newest expansion and have access to those elite specs? “Power creep” only impacts existing players who choose not to support the game by purchasing expansions.

Many games flat out give a power boost with expansions (i.e. increase level cap) which is fairly common in MMO’s. What’s being complained about isn’t something outside the norm of an MMO player and not really a subject a player new to MMO’s would have an opinion on.

Ooo, Quaggan disagrees.Quaggan pre-ordered all expansions and power creep still rolled over Quaggan.

@Morwath.9817 said:

@Ayrilana.1396 said:How are new players turned away from buying the game because of “power creep” when they’d likely be joining by buying the newest expansion and have access to those elite specs? “Power creep” only impacts existing players who choose not to support the game by purchasing expansions.

Many games flat out give a power boost with expansions (i.e. increase level cap) which is fairly common in MMO’s. What’s being complained about isn’t something outside the norm of an MMO player and not really a subject a player new to MMO’s would have an opinion on.

But you’re not a new player.

Existing players, who purchase all of the expansions, make the conscious choice not to go with whatever is perceived to be more powerful. That’s inherently no different in any MMO.

@Genesis.5169 said:Nope, its not new players gonna get stomped in pvp elite skills or not. Stop trying to find reasons why your losing.

Guessing you either didn't read the post, are trolling, or responding to some other mystery post.

Anyways, yeah, elite specs need a series of nerfs to be brought down to core level. Viable build diversity in all game modes is lacking as the new elite specs take over as the most dominant builds.

It would be nice to see all the specs, including core classes, balanced out, but that never really happened throughout all of Hot and I don't see Anet actually doing that now in PoF.

@Ayrilana.1396 said:

@Morwath.9817 said:

@Ayrilana.1396 said:How are new players turned away from buying the game because of “power creep” when they’d likely be joining by buying the newest expansion and have access to those elite specs? “Power creep” only impacts existing players who choose not to support the game by purchasing expansions.

Many games flat out give a power boost with expansions (i.e. increase level cap) which is fairly common in MMO’s. What’s being complained about isn’t something outside the norm of an MMO player and not really a subject a player new to MMO’s would have an opinion on.

It's true and not true in Quaggan eyes.If Quaggan would be new fish in the pond, power creeped Scrooge wouldn't cast such long shadow, turning all joy and happiness into torment?

Actually I think elite specs are awesome. However the lack care, balance, and poor match quality would send most packing. To ventures that actually care about their PvP customers.

The fall of GW2 from ESL, the devs only viewing PvP as a afterthought, the lack of build diversity. All of that just make the game subpar for newer players. And if said player is not yet really deeply invested in this game. Than It has no chance at attracting their attention, compared to the others on the market.

GW2 is little more than a social dress up multiplayer game. Other games are just superior to GW2's PvP and RvR, and PvE story, and Raids. GW2 only has a few things going for it.

• Grind is not needed.
• Player skill is almost a worthless commodity in this game.
• Casual Openworld Events
• F2P

Outside of that good luck enticing new players, to invest in GW2.

@Genesis.5169 said:Nope, its not new players gonna get stomped in pvp elite skills or not. Stop trying to find reasons why your losing.

How is that related to what I said ? xD

@Ayrilana.1396 said:How are new players turned away from buying the game because of “power creep” when they’d likely be joining by buying the newest expansion and have access to those elite specs? “Power creep” only impacts existing players who choose not to support the game by purchasing expansions.

Many games flat out give a power boost with expansions (i.e. increase level cap) which is fairly common in MMO’s. What’s being complained about isn’t something outside the norm of an MMO player and not really a subject a player new to MMO’s would have an opinion on.

New players are turned away if they get frustrated with the game. That is more likely going to happen if they lack strength on core builds.But you are right, power creep is not really a reason that turns away new players. Maybe the title I choose for the discussion was not accurate enough.

Anyway, thx for making your point.

The way they deliver these specs is the main problem. In MOBA games or even Overwatch champions/heroes are released one by one and they can be molded into the already existing meta. In GW2 they are relased as a huge bundle, and it's like releasing a new game with new rules. Then Anet starts balancing around the new additions instead of trying to bring them in line with what we have.

The result is more and more powercreep, and old stuff becomes irrelevant with each major release. Hearthstone is facing this same problem but on a smaller scale because some decks can remain relevant for several expansions (pirate warrior), and occasionally things rotate out of the standard format so the devs don't have to one-up themselves constantly with power levels.

WoW has the same release schedule as GW2, but the key difference is that they don't add new specializations to each class, instead just change up how the current ones work a bit, or occasionally add 1 single new class.

And to answer OP yes, this is absolutely ruining PvP.

@Gandarel.5091 said:The way they deliver these specs is the main problem. In MOBA games or even Overwatch champions/heroes are released one by one and they can be molded into the already existing meta. In GW2 they are relased as a huge bundle, and it's like releasing a new game with new rules. Then Anet starts balancing around the new additions instead of trying to bring them in line with what we have.

The result is more and more powercreep, and old stuff becomes irrelevant with each major release. Hearthstone is facing this same problem but on a smaller scale because some decks can remain relevant for several expansions (pirate warrior), and occasionally things rotate out of the standard format so the devs don't have to one-up themselves constantly with power levels.

WoW has the same release schedule as GW2, but the key difference is that they don't add new specializations to each class, instead just change up how the current ones work a bit, or occasionally add 1 single new class.

And to answer OP yes, this is absolutely ruining PvP.

I largely agree. Releasing the new bundles into PvP, particularly mid season, was a serious error. I'm reminded of the play/movie "The Producers." I won't go any further there. If you know the play, you know what I mean.

All the specs should be balanced around core. I'd be happy to see a vanilla only PvP queue.

@Ithilwen.1529 said:

@Gandarel.5091 said:The way they deliver these specs is the main problem. In MOBA games or even Overwatch champions/heroes are released one by one and they can be molded into the already existing meta. In GW2 they are relased as a huge bundle, and it's like releasing a new game with new rules. Then Anet starts balancing around the new additions instead of trying to bring them in line with what we have.

The result is more and more powercreep, and old stuff becomes irrelevant with each major release. Hearthstone is facing this same problem but on a smaller scale because some decks can remain relevant for several expansions (pirate warrior), and occasionally things rotate out of the standard format so the devs don't have to one-up themselves constantly with power levels.

WoW has the same release schedule as GW2, but the key difference is that they don't add new specializations to each class, instead just change up how the current ones work a bit, or occasionally add 1 single new class.

And to answer OP yes, this is absolutely ruining PvP.

PvP playerbase is small enough, Quaggan is against extra queues.

@Ayrilana.1396 said:

@Morwath.9817 said:

@Ayrilana.1396 said:How are new players turned away from buying the game because of “power creep” when they’d likely be joining by buying the newest expansion and have access to those elite specs? “Power creep” only impacts existing players who choose not to support the game by purchasing expansions.

Many games flat out give a power boost with expansions (i.e. increase level cap) which is fairly common in MMO’s. What’s being complained about isn’t something outside the norm of an MMO player and not really a subject a player new to MMO’s would have an opinion on.

Power creep is when you can apply more conditions and at the same time clean more, deal more damage but have more avoidance, have a skill apply 5 boons and another corrupt 3, be able to attack AND dodge at the same time.... Then you add pulsing stability and pulsing CCs, then you get pulsing resistance and pulsing corruption, more blocks and more skills that are unblockable, etc...

GW2 combines all that AND MORE. It's a game that transcend/sublime power creep. Give them 5 more years and you will end up with specs hitting for 100k, other specs having 95% invuln uptime, conditions that pierce resistance, protections that reflect unblockable skills, etc... PvP is a meme. Balance team turned a wonderful combat system into a giant turd. Stay away from that radioactive cesspool.

@Morwath.9817 said:

@Ithilwen.1529 said:

@Gandarel.5091 said:The way they deliver these specs is the main problem. In MOBA games or even Overwatch champions/heroes are released one by one and they can be molded into the already existing meta. In GW2 they are relased as a huge bundle, and it's like releasing a new game with new rules. Then Anet starts balancing around the new additions instead of trying to bring them in line with what we have.

The result is more and more powercreep, and old stuff becomes irrelevant with each major release. Hearthstone is facing this same problem but on a smaller scale because some decks can remain relevant for several expansions (pirate warrior), and occasionally things rotate out of the standard format so the devs don't have to one-up themselves constantly with power levels.

WoW has the same release schedule as GW2, but the key difference is that they don't add new specializations to each class, instead just change up how the current ones work a bit, or occasionally add 1 single new class.

And to answer OP yes, this is absolutely ruining PvP.

This girl was suggesting that all queues be vanilla.

Considering only 10% of the playerbase SPvP's, I'm okay with some of those people not liking the game and not continuing. If you like the game, spend some money to support it. It's not supposed to be free for everyone forever, because the company would end up with no money. There has to be incentive for people to upgrade. If people who won't spend money won't stay, that's okay with me. It's not like they're paying a monthly fee and it's not like PoF or HOT is that expensive now.