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Stories Locked Behind Raids [Merged]


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:s :s The only issue I have with Raids is one thing. Don't lock part of the story behind it. :s :s Rewards yes by all means, but the story is the core content. Maybe add a story mode, with no rewards for those of us that really want to get the full story. Those of us who mentally can't do raids (mine is over stimulation, cant use voip) this would help us not feel like we are missing a core part of the story. Leave Raids as they are challenging content for those who like to push the ceiling, but a story path with no rewards but gives us casuals a way to complete the story and understand.

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You are definitely not the only player that feels that way. A few of us made it very clear when they put the Saul D'Alessio storyline in the last raid wing that they had crossed a line. Based on some comments one of the writers made shortly after, I think they understood why that was a bad idea. We can only hope that message got through to the decision makers.

While I would love (and have advocated loudly for many times) a story mode of some kind, the raid team leader indicated just after PoF that it isn't currently part of the plan. While I still believe they will eventually have to reverse that decision to keep raids alive long term, for now, that is something we just have to live with.

So, what we should see next week is a hardmode raid with little to no story or heavy lore tie-ins. Any story that would be of interest to the greater GW2 community (whether it is part of the dragon or elder god story arcs or not) should be told outside of raids for the foreseeable future.

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@Sinfullysweet.4517 said::s :s The only issue I have with Raids is one thing. Don't lock part of the story behind it. :s :s Rewards yes by all means, but the story is the core content. Maybe add a story mode, with no rewards for those of us that really want to get the full story. Those of us who mentally can't do raids (mine is over stimulation, cant use voip) this would help us not feel like we are missing a core part of the story. Leave Raids as they are challenging content for those who like to push the ceiling, but a story path with no rewards but gives us casuals a way to complete the story and understand.

Re-post from the other thread:The developers went to great length to not make the Raid story an integral part of the overall story. In fact the NPCs you meet inside the Raid act as if you've never seen them before if you've never been inside the Raid. If you play the episodes without ever touching the Raid, you don't miss anything so there is hardly any problem. There is zero reason to believe that they won't do the same with the next Wing. After all Raids are side stories

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Thank you!

@zealex.9410 said:Watch a vid on youtube. Wp is known or his 1hour vid on the story

I actually did all the side stories except raids so I was still a bit lost on some of the story and why. I had few folks explain it to me that raided and what went on during them. I apologize if I have been misinformed.

@maddoctor.2738 said:

@Sinfullysweet.4517 said::s :s
The only issue I have with Raids is one thing.
Don't lock part of the story behind it.
:s :s Rewards yes by all means, but the story is the core content. Maybe add a story mode, with no rewards for those of us that really want to get the full story. Those of us who mentally can't do raids (mine is over stimulation, cant use voip) this would help us not feel like we are missing a core part of the story. Leave Raids as they are challenging content for those who like to push the ceiling, but a story path with no rewards but gives us casuals a way to complete the story and understand.

Re-post from the other thread:The developers went to great length to not make the Raid story an integral part of the overall story. In fact the NPCs you meet inside the Raid act as if you've never seen them before if you've never been inside the Raid. If you play the episodes without ever touching the Raid, you don't miss anything so there is hardly any problem. There is zero reason to believe that they won't do the same with the next Wing. After all Raids are side stories

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@maddoctor.2738 said:

@Sinfullysweet.4517 said::s :s
The only issue I have with Raids is one thing.
Don't lock part of the story behind it.
:s :s Rewards yes by all means, but the story is the core content. Maybe add a story mode, with no rewards for those of us that really want to get the full story. Those of us who mentally can't do raids (mine is over stimulation, cant use voip) this would help us not feel like we are missing a core part of the story. Leave Raids as they are challenging content for those who like to push the ceiling, but a story path with no rewards but gives us casuals a way to complete the story and understand.

Re-post from the other thread:The developers went to great length to not make the Raid story an integral part of the overall story. In fact the NPCs you meet inside the Raid act as if you've never seen them before if you've never been inside the Raid. If you play the episodes without ever touching the Raid, you don't miss anything so there is hardly any problem. There is zero reason to believe that they won't do the same with the next Wing. After all Raids are side stories

Literally cannot +1 this enough. It's sad so many people think the raid story is anything more than a save the missing squad story, because that's literally all it is.It's not a whoa lazarus thing, he wasn't even there. The only reason his name is even mentioned is because the white mantle used some half baked theories to think they were reviving something that didnt even need to be revived.

But people will complain about raids because they can not because it's logical. Meanwhile the single biggest offenders of keeping story details limited to story Caudecus Manor gets blown over as if yeah, everyone's done that. I wonder just how many people had never touched it but still got the lines"I wonder what happened here""Oh that was me, i thought they would have fixed it by now"

Yep, raids are clearly the story telling problem here right guys ?

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@TexZero.7910 said:

@maddoctor.2738 said:

@Sinfullysweet.4517 said::s :s
The only issue I have with Raids is one thing.
Don't lock part of the story behind it.
:s :s Rewards yes by all means, but the story is the core content. Maybe add a story mode, with no rewards for those of us that really want to get the full story. Those of us who mentally can't do raids (mine is over stimulation, cant use voip) this would help us not feel like we are missing a core part of the story. Leave Raids as they are challenging content for those who like to push the ceiling, but a story path with no rewards but gives us casuals a way to complete the story and understand.

Re-post from the other thread:The developers went to great length to not make the Raid story an integral part of the overall story. In fact the NPCs you meet inside the Raid act as if you've never seen them before if you've never been inside the Raid. If you play the episodes without ever touching the Raid, you don't miss anything so there is hardly any problem. There is zero reason to believe that they won't do the same with the next Wing. After all Raids are side stories

Literally cannot +1 this enough. It's sad so many people think the raid story is anything more than a save the missing squad story, because that's literally all it is.It's not a whoa lazarus thing, he wasn't even there. The only reason his name is even mentioned is because the white mantle used some half baked theories to think they were reviving something that didnt even need to be revived.

But people will complain about raids because they can not because it's logical. Meanwhile the single biggest offenders of keeping story details limited to story Caudecus Manor gets blown over as if yeah, everyone's done that. I wonder just how many people had never touched it but still got the lines"I wonder what happened here""Oh that was me, i thought they would have fixed it by now"

Yep, raids are clearly the story telling problem here right guys ?

I am not complaining about raids, at all seriously. I am actually glad raiders get an extra play area! I was just really lost in LS3 because it felt all over the place, and had again perhaps been given misinformation regarding extra information that happened in raids. Can I play raids? No. My autism gets over stimulated from the sounds, the comms, and I freak. Do I want them catered to me? Hell no. My problem, no one else. So please do not take this as I am attacking raids or against raids. Just wanted to make sure there was no extra story that I am missing due to my ineptitude of playing in raids.

I have seem to be assured of that.

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I have slightly less issue with the story from the first three raid wings. The Saul D'Alessio storyline in wing four definitely took things too far though, imo.

Raid story shouldnt touch the characters from lore (GW1 or GW2) or storylines that the general GW2 player would find compelling.

Let raids be solely about the fights/challenge with extremely minimal narrative. That isn't a lot to ask.

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@Blaeys.3102 said:I have slightly less issue with the story from the first three raid wings. The Saul D'Alessio storyline in wing four definitely took things too far though, imo.

Raid story shouldnt touch the characters from lore (GW1 or GW2) or storylines that the general GW2 player would find compelling.

Let raids be solely about the fights/challenge with extremely minimal narrative. That isn't a lot to ask.

Raids can have characters from the lore of both games just fine, I expect the next Raid to also touch on major lore characters. This as long as it doesn't affect the main story of the game, finishing Saul D'Alessio's story in such an epic way was one step towards a good direction. Finishing old story threads in Raids, when they do not affect the main story, is the best way to finish them. In an epic and memorable way, not the way we finished Lazarus or Balthazar.

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@maddoctor.2738 said:

@Blaeys.3102 said:I have slightly less issue with the story from the first three raid wings. The Saul D'Alessio storyline in wing four definitely took things too far though, imo.

Raid story shouldnt touch the characters from lore (GW1 or GW2) or storylines that the general GW2 player would find compelling.

Let raids be solely about the fights/challenge with extremely minimal narrative. That isn't a lot to ask.

Raids can have characters from the lore of both games just fine, I expect the next Raid to also touch on major lore characters. This as long as it doesn't affect the main story of the game, finishing Saul D'Alessio's story in such an epic way was one step towards a good direction. Finishing old story threads in Raids, when they do not affect the main story, is the best way to finish them. In an epic and memorable way, not the way we finished Lazarus or Balthazar.

Whether or not it affects the main story is completely unimportant - especially if it involves lore characters or story. These are still stories that most players would like to be a part of - and that is all that really matters.

Hopefully, the developers (hopefully) understand that and take it into account moving forward.

And, to add, I think you will find most raiders do not care about story at all. They are there for the challenge. Tell the stories in more accessible areas of the game and leave raids focused solely on the fights/challenges. There is no reason to widen the divide between players on this issue any more than it already is (which I think was the point the OP was trying to get across).

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@Blaeys.3102 said:Whether or not it affects the main story is completely unimportant - especially if it involves lore characters or story. These are still stories that most players would like to be a part of - and that is all that really matters.

Actually that's what really matters and there are already rumors about the next Raid also dealing heavily with GW1 lore. These are stories that deserve a good ending worthy of their importance and not a semi-afkable solo instance.

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@maddoctor.2738 said:

@Blaeys.3102 said:Whether or not it affects the main story is completely unimportant - especially if it involves lore characters or story. These are still stories that most players would like to be a part of - and that is all that really matters.

Actually that's what really matters and there are already rumors about the next Raid also dealing heavily with GW1 lore. These are stories that deserve a good ending worthy of their importance and not a semi-afkable solo instance.

This exactly. That kind of content deserves to be a raid.

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@Lunateric.3708 said:

@maddoctor.2738 said:

@Blaeys.3102 said:Whether or not it affects the main story is completely unimportant - especially if it involves lore characters or story. These are still stories that most players would like to be a part of - and that is all that really matters.

Actually that's what really matters and there are already rumors about the next Raid also dealing heavily with GW1 lore. These are stories that deserve a good ending worthy of their importance and not a semi-afkable solo instance.

This exactly. That kind of content
deserves
to be a raid.

And many players would say they deserve the experience of that story without changing the way they have played since the game came out.

This idea that only raiders deserve that experience is not only pure BS, it is belittling to the vast number of players who bought this game specifically to get away from that kind of elitist attitude. I rarely use the term elitist (I think it is overused and misused in most cases) - but here, where were talking about people believing they are owed a story experience or lore wrap up that others are not, it definitely applies.

And, I would expect backlash from players like the OP (and, of course, me, but I'm pretty much white noise to the devs at this point) if this is a trend they plan to continue. Let raids be about the fights/challenge (which is what most raiders seem to care about) and leave story to the rest of the game.

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@Blaeys.3102 said:

@Lunateric.3708 said:

@maddoctor.2738 said:

@Blaeys.3102 said:Whether or not it affects the main story is completely unimportant - especially if it involves lore characters or story. These are still stories that most players would like to be a part of - and that is all that really matters.

Actually that's what really matters and there are already rumors about the next Raid also dealing heavily with GW1 lore. These are stories that deserve a good ending worthy of their importance and not a semi-afkable solo instance.

This exactly. That kind of content
deserves
to be a raid.

And many players would say they deserve the experience of that story without changing the way they have played since the game came out.

This idea that only raiders deserve that experience is not only pure BS, it is belittling to the vast number of players who bought this game specifically to get away from that kind of elitist attitude. I rarely use the term elitist (I think it is overused and misused in most cases) - but here, where were talking about people believing they are owed a story experience or lore wrap up that others are not, it definitely applies.

And, I would expect backlash from players like the OP (and, of course, me, but I'm pretty much white noise to the devs at this point) if this is a trend they plan to continue. Let raids be about the fights/challenge (which is what most raiders seem to care about) and leave story to the

Free lunch is why PoF is dead atm, more free lunch isn't going to revive it.

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In the past 8-10 posts, we've seen the same people shift their argument from "these stories are unimportant, so non-raiders shouldn't care" to "these stories are so important that they deserve special treatment." That alone shows us that the argument is less about the story and more about people wanting to keep those dirty casuals out of every part of their corner of the playground. And that is the definition of elitist, imo.

If this were a raid centric game, where it was clear going in that the culmination of these stories would require raiding, then I could understand their inclusion. But it isn't. This game was set up - and more importantly, marketed - differently, even with HOT and POF (especially with POF, where they focused heavily on the storytelling aspects in their marketing). This game centers on the community experiencing the story content together (even things designated as "side" content - a term I still argue is pure semantics in this game). That is what it has always been - and what it is supposed to be now.

And, even if this were a raid centric game, I would argue that changes would be in order. Pretty much every successful MMO that has utilized raids as a storytelling tool has had to adapt their raid model to be more accessible to players of all skill levels and interests.

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@Blaeys.3102 said:In the past 8-10 posts, we've seen the same people shift their argument from "these stories are unimportant, so non-raiders shouldn't care" to "these stories are so important that they deserve special treatment."

You should re-read the arguments then:The stories are unimportant to the main story of the game is the main argument, not unimportant in the entire GW lore.But the stories are important side stories to be worth a good fight, instead of what we get in the main stories.

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@OP: I can't speak for everyone else, but as for myself, I certainly DON'T feel this way.Although to be fair, I also have nothing against story mode raids, as long as they offer no rewards (as mentioned in your original post) AND don't slow down the development of actual raids (which would likely mean slowing down the development of other parts of the game). But as I suspect, a lot of people would much rather have whole new content like living story instead of those teams reworking pre-existing content into some watered-down uninteresting version of it.

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@Tarasicodissa.7084 said:@OP: I can't speak for everyone else, but as for myself, I certainly DON'T feel this way.Although to be fair, I also have nothing against story mode raids, as long as they offer no rewards (as mentioned in your original post) AND don't slow down the development of actual raids (which would likely mean slowing down the development of other parts of the game). But as I suspect, a lot of people would much rather have whole new content like living story instead of those teams reworking pre-existing content into some watered-down uninteresting version of it.

Thank you for that. I respect how you feel. ?

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I do kind of agree with the aspect that cool story (no matter if GW1 or GW2 related) should not be locked behind raids.

I also think people are greatly (and I mean really greatly) exaggerating the amount of story told in raids. It's literally maybe a 5-10 second boss cut-scene, some npc banter (the same type of dialog most people skip while running around in the open world) and that's it. If I had to summarize the entire story of the current 4 raid wings, it would be less than any 1 Living World Story instance step.

I can sympathize with veteran GW1 players who are not raiding being annoyed that part of the raid story (wing 4) deals with GW1 lore. So far though, it's by far not so fleshed out that it warrants big drama. This might change for future raid wings, but I do think arenanet are on top of this.

Watching a WP video about it will be dozen times more entertaining and insightful than actually running the raid. At the same time the GW1 setting does provide some narrative background for raids, putting them in a proper context without delivering to much story via them.

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@Blaeys.3102 said:And many players would say they deserve the experience of that story without changing the way they have played since the game came out.

This idea that only raiders deserve that experience is not only pure BS, it is belittling to the vast number of players who bought this game specifically to get away from that kind of elitist attitude. I rarely use the term elitist (I think it is overused and misused in most cases) - but here, where were talking about people believing they are owed a story experience or lore wrap up that others are not, it definitely applies.

And, I would expect backlash from players like the OP (and, of course, me, but I'm pretty much white noise to the devs at this point) if this is a trend they plan to continue. Let raids be about the fights/challenge (which is what most raiders seem to care about) and leave story to the rest of the game.

Thing is, though, the way story was so far implemented, you could experience everything of it except the actual bossfight, with someone opening the instances for you just fine.

OP wants a story mode, so basically he wants to remove the difficult raidbosses. But thats exactly the same? Only difference: not having to put up a lfg for someone to open instance.

I could understand this whole topic if the raiding community was so toxic as to not open instances for others to explore the story. But thats definitely NOT the case.

So, while it might not be accessible in a conventional way, the story IS already accessible.

The actual boss fight, if seen as part of that story, should then of course be done on the approbriate challenge level. Otherwise I want a storymode for every worldboss and mapwide meta event also.

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Raids themselves are pretty devoid of any actual lore by the way. Empty instances can literally be run through in less then 2 minutes, and finding the lore pieces in every instance would take no more then 5 to 10 minutes. Anything lore related can be boiled down to pieces of paper with no more then 2/3 lines of text on it or npc's literally giving one-line dialogues.

The only heavy lore bit in Forsaken thicket would be the NPC that get's released after the fight with Matthias who gives a bit of dialogue and a 15 second movie. Who can be accessed via an empty instance, again providing all the lore you might miss out on because a player might not do raids. Most of the rest of the lore you might miss is bosses going "HRRRRRR! ME KILL YOU NOW! GRRRRR" with one-liners. Wing 4 might be the wing with the most lore actually, but everything lore related can be found via Glenna, who you can talk to before every raid boss even starts. You could open a wing before you've fought Cairn, and get every lore there. Go into an instance that cleared Cairn and get everything on Mursaat Overseer and so on for the other 2 bosses.

I'm actually pretty sure people thinking they're missing out on a lot of things will go: "Wait...this is it? This isn't even that much!" If they get the chance to experience all the lore. Wooden Potatoes is a great source on catching up anything lore related to raids, just be prepared to deal with 30min/1hour videos dealing with 5 to 10 minutes of lore because...well...Wooden Potatoes.

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