[Suggestions] Turn one core trait line to elite trait line and balance from there

The suggestion is simple. Turn Tools (Engineer) or Arcane (Elementalist) trait lines to elite trait lines. Then balance core specs around them.

Will this kill some builds: Yes it will.

But I do hope it can buff the Core specs to be actually useful like all elite specs.

Discuss...

So you would sacrifice build diversity to regain build diversity?What's the benefit of doing that?

Core specs are very useful, just not as an elite spec. Elite specs are designed to be useful together with the core specs. So core specs are already useful just not on their own.

Also, most ppl already played the sh*t out of the core specs in the past years. They want to play all the new elite specs and imo the build diversity should be there and not with the old stuff.

So basicly That would make Virtues the core elite for guardian... i would not mind...

Your suggestion kills my Weaver build and probably many other Weaver builds.

Arcane lowers the attunement swap cool down. And given the huge push to swap attunements in Weaver, that change would negatively impact Weavers.

Its debatable if this would improve build diversity or balance in any way in high end PvE or in PvP/WvW, but it would certainly have negative ramifications while leveling. A core traitline being made into an "elite" traitline means that players would be locked out of using that traitline until they were at least level 71. Try explaining that to a new player. And that would make leveling anywhere from less fun (due simply to fewer choices) to a chore depending on which core traitline was made into the elite line.

@YoukiNeko.6047 said:But I do hope it can buff the Core specs to be actually useful like all elite specs.

If you believe the devs are good at balancing, then they have chosen to make Core specs somewhat less useful, i.e. this is a choice not an accident.

If you believe that ANet has trouble balancing, then this will make things worse, not better. It could also delay development of future expacs (each of which is currently planned to include new elite specs, as opposed to new profs).

Either way, it's a lot of extra work for... what? A few more interesting builds and a few already-interesting builds made less interesting?

I think it would be better to identify reasons that certain trait lines (or skill lines) aren't in use among the masses. (What is or isn't available in meta builds isn't that relevant: meta builds always end up gravitating to any extra efficiencies, no matter how small, e.g. QT builds include Stat+9 infusions, which add enormous costs for minor boosts.)

@OriOri.8724 no one said that core spec should be locked behind lvl 71. If they change the system so you unlock the elite trait line at lvl 30 (or sooner) and then the others.@Seera.5916 Yeah some builds will die, new will be made. Isn't the cooldoown already like 2s for swamp?@Aeolus.3615 Yeah pretty much.@Adenin.5973 So only people with expansions should have useful builds for anything that is not open world AA runs?@Illconceived Was Na.9781 So it would be better if the Devs never balance anything and just keep throwing elite specializations at us. And lets face it everything could delay development for future expansions. Elite trait lines are so powerful because only 1 can be used at a time. So every time a core trait line is buffed, it will most likely buff the elite even more.

If they took a current core trait-line and removed it from the F2P game and added it back in with an expansion (which is how Elite specs work, after all) then it would both reduce the core gameplay experience and be a lame expansion spec. I see no benefit to this whatsoever.

If the idea is to make a F2P spec that is balanced against the expansion specs. . . that's not the point of a F2P spec.

I think this will kill far more builds then it could ever create. Plus it would put pressure on core players to take whatever the line becomes the elite, further decreasing core player’s effective diversity.You’d be far better off asking for a new Core Elite Spec but as stated before, core players will centralize around whatever Elites they have.

@Ohoni.6057 F2P spec? Why shouldn't the core spec be more useful even for F2P accounts?@Dual.8953 How many builds will it kill? And then how many of the builds that will be killed are actually something you can use in anything different than open world auto attack zergs?

@YoukiNeko.6047 said:@Ohoni.6057 F2P spec? Why shouldn't the core spec be more useful even for F2P accounts?

Because elite specs are a tier above the core specs. You have to invest into the game to access them.

@Ohoni.6057 said:

@YoukiNeko.6047 said:@Ohoni.6057 F2P spec? Why shouldn't the core spec be more useful even for F2P accounts?

What about players that own the Core game? You know people that bought it before it went F2P?

@YoukiNeko.6047 said:

@Ohoni.6057 said:

@YoukiNeko.6047 said:@Ohoni.6057 F2P spec? Why shouldn't the core spec be more useful even for F2P accounts?

They got their $60 out of the game before HoT came out. If they want Elite specs they need to buy one of the expansions.

@Ohoni.6057 said:

@YoukiNeko.6047 said:

@Ohoni.6057 said:

@YoukiNeko.6047 said:@Ohoni.6057 F2P spec? Why shouldn't the core spec be more useful even for F2P accounts?

Given that ANet maybe make more money out of the Gem Store than from direct game sales. Kittening Core players that don't like the HoT or/and PoF maps seems like fine idea to me.Then again even players with HoT or PoF might not like the new specs and want to play good core specs (again ignoring the Open world auto attack trains).

@YoukiNeko.6047 said:@"Dual.8953" How many builds will it kill? And then how many of the builds that will be killed are actually something you can use in anything different than open world auto attack zergs?

On qT's benchmark site, the second largest DPS in the first list is the "arcane weaver" build. The fourth is the "radiance/virtues dragonhunter" build. Out of the five builds in that list, your suggestion would remove two.

I don't think your idea is bad; your tone is, your idea, not. But it's not going to happen, ArenaNet uses most of their resources on new content and things they can sell, not old content.

@YoukiNeko.6047 said:@Ohoni.6057 F2P spec? Why shouldn't the core spec be more useful even for F2P accounts?@Dual.8953 How many builds will it kill? And then how many of the builds that will be killed are actually something you can use in anything different than open world auto attack zergs?

Depends on the traitline and it’s difficult to quantify with so many combinations. With just the traits alone though it’d cut out around 40% of builds available to players who’ve bought all expansions, assuming those players are using elites. (I’d like to double check once I have access to my TI83)

@YoukiNeko.6047 said:How many builds will it kill? And then how many of the builds that will be killed are actually something you can use in anything different than open world auto attack zergs?

Since where your suggestion counts is in pvp, no reason to do this in pve, I will reply on pvp builds:Most Weaver builds use Arcane, a lot of the Dragonhunter/Firebrand builds use Virtues, Tools is used in lots of the Engineer builds, Beast mastery is used in many Druid builds, all Thief builds use Trickery. It might be different in PVE, but with this change you will delete the majority of pvp builds

@Erasculio.2914 said:

@YoukiNeko.6047 said:@"Dual.8953" How many builds will it kill? And then how many of the builds that will be killed are actually something you can use in anything different than open world auto attack zergs?

This is off topic but how is my tone bad? I'm just asking to know what to improve.

Now on the topic. 2 QT builds might get destroyed but then so many builds were lost when the game went from the old traits to the new ones (For the record I enjoy the new system). And the next expansion might kill even more of the current builds in the raid meta. (Fun fact the qt holo build is way to squishy for PoF mobs).

We won't know how this will affect the usable builds diversity unless it is implemented.

Now the comment about ArenaNet. I do agree they should focus on making money, but I'm yet to see the gem store missing update because of balance patch.

I'm wondering why are there so many people against converting single core trait line to elite trait line. And the balancing from there to make the core classes viable.

P.S. @maddoctor.2738 It doesn't count only for PVP, the target is Dungeons, Fractals, Raids, PvP and WvW.

@YoukiNeko.6047 said:P.S. @maddoctor.2738 It doesn't count only for PVP, the target is Dungeons, Fractals, Raids, PvP and WvW.

I didn't check WvW builds but as I said, your suggestion will delete nearly all the pvp builds out there.

@maddoctor.2738 said:

@YoukiNeko.6047 said:P.S. @maddoctor.2738 It doesn't count only for PVP, the target is Dungeons, Fractals, Raids, PvP and WvW.

Well Tools and Arcane were example suggestions. Then again if ArenaNet decide to do something like that they might go for a hardly used trait lines and go from there.But yeah in the end some build will be removed and new ones will be created. If the core classes get buffed we might see bigger build diversity than the current Scourge/FB/Mirage/SB.

@YoukiNeko.6047 said:@Adenin.5973 So only people with expansions should have useful builds for anything that is not open world AA runs?

Why should the devs waste time and money on people that don't buy their products anymore? That's just the reality.

If you're interested in the game you buy an expansion. You don't run around in the 5 year old core content and cry that you can't have mounts and elite specs and gliding and legendary armors and new legendary weapons and no new weapon and armor stats.

Big no from me, focus on ppl that bought your new content and make it easy for new players to get quickly there.

@YoukiNeko.6047 said:Given that ANet maybe make more money out of the Gem Store than from direct game sales. Kittening Core players that don't like the HoT or/and PoF maps seems like fine idea to me.

I'm sorry, I just don't have any tears in my body for people who bought the game at launch, are still playing, and couldn't be bothered to buy either of the expansions. I mean, what even if that? It's not like it's a massive purchase, both were cheaper than the box they bought at launch. Either belly-up to the bar or accept that maybe you won't be getting as much cool stuff as the ones who do.

@Adenin.5973 said:

@YoukiNeko.6047 said:@Adenin.5973 So only people with expansions should have useful builds for anything that is not open world AA runs?

So do you work for ArenaNet? Do you know how much money they get from game sales vs gem store sales?I actually own the core collectors + hot ultimate + pof ultimate. Btw did you know that you can currently buy HoT and PoF for 49,99 € both?

Anyway this suggestion is cause I would like to have Core build changes so I can enjoy them again and play them in more game modes.Now if no one else want them changed I'm okay with that.

@YoukiNeko.6047 said:The suggestion is simple. Turn Tools (Engineer) or Arcane (Elementalist) trait lines to elite trait lines. Then balance core specs around them.

Will this kill some builds: Yes it will.

But I do hope it can buff the Core specs to be actually useful like all elite specs.

Discuss...

It's either this, adding a new elite specialization trait line for core, or remaking core professions altogether. Right now, everything is a mess because the foundation isn't working. Professions were never built with elite specializations in mind, and it shows.

It's very sad that core professions haven't been updated since more than 3 years ago. They're still missing 2 healing skills and 1 elite skill each, and many of them could use new weapons as well.

Personally, I'd prefer a full profession redesign, but I'll stick with the new trait line idea for a quick sketch of how it could look like:

• Elementalist: Arcanist (5th attunement)
• Mesmer: Illusionist (+2 maximum illusions, for a total of 5)
• Necromancer: ?
• Engineer: ?
• Ranger: Beastmaster (two pets out at once)
• Thief: Bandit (additional steal skill slots in F2 and F3)
• Guardian: Inquisitor (New F4 virtue, Wrath)
• Revenant: Ritualist (New core legend, Legendary Headmaster, represented by Togo)
• Warrior: Warmaster (New F2 burst skill based on the off-hand weapon)

And anyway, to be fair, I would redesign traits as well, and kill trait lines, replacing them with "choose whatever you want" traits instead.

@Lonami.2987 said:

@YoukiNeko.6047 said:The suggestion is simple. Turn Tools (Engineer) or Arcane (Elementalist) trait lines to elite trait lines. Then balance core specs around them.

Will this kill some builds: Yes it will.

But I do hope it can buff the Core specs to be actually useful like all elite specs.

Discuss...

• Elementalist:
  Arcanist (5th attunement)
• Mesmer:
  Illusionist (+2 maximum illusions, for a total of 5)
• Necromancer:
  ?
• Engineer:
  ?
• Ranger:
  Beastmaster (two pets out at once)
• Thief:
  Bandit (additional steal skill slots in F2 and F3)
• Guardian:
  Inquisitor (New F4 virtue, Wrath)
• Revenant:
  Ritualist (New core legend, Legendary Headmaster, represented by Togo)
• Warrior:
  Warmaster (New F2 burst skill based on the off-hand weapon)

Yeah full profession redesign would be nice. And this are nice suggestions for trait lines.