11/28 Release Mesmer Axe Bug Fix — Guild Wars 2 Forums
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11/28 Release Mesmer Axe Bug Fix

'ey all,

With the Episode 1 release there were a pair of mesmer changes missing from the initial notes as we unable to get them translated in time for all languages; these notes'll be in a bit later:

Imaginary Axes: This skill can no longer hit the same target twice with the same axe.
Mirrored Axes - Phantasmal Seeking Axe: This skill can no longer hit the same target twice with the same axe.

Damage from these axes hitting multiple times on individual targets was blowing out mirage damage. These changes should help get Mirage characters from unreasonably high to back to reasonable high damage, but we'll continue to keep an eye on their sustained and spike damage moving forward.

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Comments

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited November 28, 2017

    Most mesmer/mirage players were expecting this fix and are welcoming it. Let's see how this affects our dps.

    EDIT: that said, shouldn't this bugfix also be mentioned in the patch notes for completions sake? cough cough

  • FaboBabo.3581FaboBabo.3581 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited November 29, 2017

    Nice. Was Hoping for this.

    Mirage Main speaking.
    We don't freak out if we're top dps of a bug, which gets fixed.

    Edit; well it seems like we DO Freak out when loosing 40% dps + getting a new bug, while anet says ; all fine now.

    Mirage since Day 1 - It got better!

  • @Cyninja.2954 said:
    EDIT: that said, shouldn't this bugfix also be mentioned in the patch notes for completions sake? cough cough

    @Irenio CalmonHuang.2048 said:
    With the Episode 1 release there were a pair of mesmer changes missing from the initial notes as we unable to get them translated in time for all languages; these notes'll be in a bit later:

    "With great power comes not-so-great utility bills."

  • Arzurag.7506Arzurag.7506 Member ✭✭✭

    @FaboBabo.3581 said:
    Nice. Was Hoping for this.

    Mirage Main speaking.
    We don't freak out if we're top dps of a bug, which gets fixed.

    pun intended^^

    "I´m not big on sermons, Broken bones teach better lessons."

  • The only part about the bug I was happy about was that it allowed for me to run a build that wasn't Phantasm focused for dps. If they took that away from me then I'd like my bug back. Phantasm play is just.... Boring.

  • Curunen.8729Curunen.8729 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Good to see this taken care of relatively swiftly.

    Hopefully it might stem some of the moaning (eh, who am I kidding, of course there will still be "mesmer OP!1!" complaints as there always are).

    Hybrid Mirage / Please restore burst confusion to Axe 3

  • I JUST STARTED GETTING VIPER FOR MIRAGE THE hell

  • Avster.1935Avster.1935 Member ✭✭
    edited November 28, 2017

    @Vella the knight.6072 said:
    I JUST STARTED GETTING VIPER FOR MIRAGE THE hell

    Shh, it's okay...stop gearing it, or actually, you can play the phantasm build...

    Voice of the Void | Demon's Demise | The Eternal

  • So what is our dps benchmark now?

  • ArenaNet: "We saw we hadn't nerfed the Mesmers in awhile so yeah... here ya go"

  • Sojourner.4621Sojourner.4621 Member ✭✭✭
    edited November 28, 2017

    Well TBH this won't change the small hitbox numbers much since the axes didn't really hit small HB targets twice... so all this will really do is normalize small vs large to about the same 37k

    Note: That means mesmer will still prolly be top Condi DPS.

  • FaboBabo.3581FaboBabo.3581 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited November 28, 2017

    Chill folks. This was ovious work. The buffs we got with last Patch clearly showed A-Net wants Mirage at top DpS. Now we were way over it due to a Bug. Fixxing a Bug + Buffing a class in the same Patch is not healthy. You have no Data about the bugfixxed State of the Class. A-Net can maybe value the max damage output for Mirage right now, but they don't know how the Community is going to perform.

    We have about 2 Months time now to create stable Data based on the bugfixxed Mirage. After that we can readjust damage Numbers etc.
    You can't bugfix + buff a class which had 42k dps.

    Let's see if we can get the 34-36 k mark. After that only Weaver is drastically standing out, but afaik Elementalist were always allowed to be n^1 DpS Spec, whatever they play, i don't mind that.

    With 34-36k Mesmers can be happy. We can ask for sustain or Group support instead of Damage then.

    Mirage since Day 1 - It got better!

  • Good fix, though it probably won't diminish the benches too much anyway.

  • FaboBabo.3581FaboBabo.3581 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @ThePlayMaker.1058 said:
    Good fix, though it probably won't diminish the benches too much anyway.

    it's only 6-8k ....

    Mirage since Day 1 - It got better!

  • It's fine.
    I just use my Mirage what was her plan from day 1 before I learn what Mirage was.
    Just being a porting slave.

  • FaboBabo.3581FaboBabo.3581 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Shadu.3701 said:
    To those saying "you've got to release a bugfix before you can adjust the dps to be good again" are just plain wrong. They can test it internally with the bugfixes and then tune skills so that they are either not overpowered or not too weak and then release the patch instead of doing just one of the two. Evidence shows from the past balance patches that they don't do this though. They do one of the 2, then we have to wait for the next balance patch to finally come around for them to hit the other part and the balance patches are way to far spread from eachother which makes things like this hurt so much more.

    This change also nerfed average golem dps, so not just large. Yes the two are now more equal to each other, so on both the phantasms build is now way better again.

    Dps on average and large golem seems to be around 25k atm with testing (personal testing and numbers from reddit), maaaybe with some outliers nearly hitting 30k. So it's anything but a good patch, we went from insanely good to not worth bringing (while the spec itself already wasn't great on quite some raid fights).

    And then all mirage Players are bad and only manage to hit 80% of possible dps. Anet cant factor players. Maybe 35k + is possible right now , but testers are bad?

    We had 41-46k dps pre patch, some people only hit ~35k. If the People who did 35k previously now test it they wont get close too 30k.

    I'wait a bit.

    Mirage since Day 1 - It got better!

  • FaboBabo.3581FaboBabo.3581 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Sojourner.4621 said:
    Well TBH this won't change the small hitbox numbers much since the axes didn't really hit small HB targets twice... so all this will really do is normalize small vs large to about the same 37k

    Note: That means mesmer will still prolly be top Condi DPS.

    Yes it will. Seems like they were two bugs. The one was axe ambush hitting twice when in front of the target (release + seek)

    I could easily go to a choya press dodge + axe 1 and had 8 stacks of confusion.

    Then id seems like those axes were hitting large hit boxes a third time for a total of 12 stacks confu.

    At least this is what i can imagine , because i 100%tested on choja, which arent large hit boxes.

    Second way is ; the bug had nothing to do with large or small hitbox.

    Mirage since Day 1 - It got better!

  • StinVec.3621StinVec.3621 Member ✭✭✭

    @Irenio CalmonHuang.2048 said:
    'ey all,

    With the Episode 1 release there were a pair of mesmer changes missing from the initial notes as we unable to get them translated in time for all languages; these notes'll be in a bit later:

    Imaginary Axes: This skill can no longer hit the same target twice with the same axe.
    Mirrored Axes - Phantasmal Seeking Axe: This skill can no longer hit the same target twice with the same axe.

    Damage from these axes hitting multiple times on individual targets was blowing out mirage damage. These changes should help get Mirage characters from unreasonably high to back to reasonable high damage, but we'll continue to keep an eye on their sustained and spike damage moving forward.

    Is this change forced across all game modes?

    More directly, was this change in behavior for PvP game modes only, or is the Open World-PvE Mirage 'adjusted' also?

    If OW-PvE Mirage is affected by this change, why? It's clear you felt it was functioning improperly in PvP modes, so why not 'adjust' it just for PvP modes as you do for other skills?

    If OW-PvE is not affected by this change, thank you for being logical and consistent with your efforts in further balancing skills individually for different game modes.

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  • @Avster.1935 said:

    @Vella the knight.6072 said:
    I JUST STARTED GETTING VIPER FOR MIRAGE THE hell

    Shh, it's okay...stop gearing it, or actually, you can play the phantasm build...

    No point, you'd be better respeccing into Chrono so that at least you bring buffs to the table with mediocre dps. Mirage only brought dps, so without additional changes along with the bug fixes Mirage is now in a bad spot where we bring nothing to the group dynamic.

  • Veprovina.4876Veprovina.4876 Member ✭✭✭
    edited November 29, 2017

    What was the bug again?
    Mirage main here, i thought everything was working as intended?

  • Toeofdoom.6152Toeofdoom.6152 Member ✭✭
    edited November 29, 2017

    I can't test this until I get home, but reports from elsewhere indicate dps has dropped considerably more than expected (around 10-15k).

    There are also unconfirmed reports that axe clones ambushes do not seek correctly, potentially not hitting at all. If so, there may be another thing to fix :)

  • Is it hard to accept reality, right? Now go and thanks them again for the fix. It's like if they fixed the bug even without any test or benchmark. Without any care for the result or the consequencies for the Mirage. I only hope that this result could be another bug to fix. For now we have been erased as an alternative for dps, Fractal, Raid. Take it as a dream that never existed.

  • This bug fix has made a dramatic difference to my dps for the worse, some others are quoting a 30+% decrease. With the bug we felt on par with other dps specs , maybe just a little over, but certainly not 30% over. I agree with the above posters and almost ever other mesmer mirage mainer. It's just lost it's sparkle, playing tonight I just didn't have fun feeling like santa gave me coal for Christmas. Developers if you are listening to the mesmer community and not the other classes who like to cry nerf, please restore the sparkle to the DPS class. Or at the very minimum reverse the change and tone the dps down slightly. You broke the dps class as it is right now. Shame when I was just starting to enjoy playing.

  • @Veprovina.4876 said:
    What was the bug again?
    Mirage main here, i thought everything was working as intended?

    The bug was Mirage was good and fun.
    They made Mesmer something I liked after hating the core and finding nothing good in Chrono for me.

    I'll stay on Scourge and Thief until they fix it.

  • @Ayumi Spender.1082 said:

    @Veprovina.4876 said:
    What was the bug again?
    Mirage main here, i thought everything was working as intended?

    The bug was Mirage was good and fun.
    They made Mesmer something I liked after hating the core and finding nothing good in Chrono for me.

    I'll stay on Scourge and Thief until they fix it.

    Oh, so they broke the Axe ambush... Now the ambush only hits with 1 axe making it borderline useless...
    That.... Didn't need to get fixed... :confused:
    How is that a fix?

  • The fix is more like something that reveals the obvious issue with mirage: that ambush is pathetic and cannot justify the opportunity cost in dodge/survival/group utility. Now axe ambush is more or less on par with other dedicated weapon ambush builds (scepter and staff etc roughly 24k) and mirage brings nothing to raid group, even dps.

    I'd say mirage falls into spellbreaker category, flashy but only useful in pvp.

    [RED] Crimson Sunspears...your small family guild since 2015.

  • OriOri.8724OriOri.8724 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Xyonon.3987 said:
    Hey everyone - I'm this guy and I'll explain what seems to be confusing people here. :)


    How it was:

    The axe ambush used to be able to hit a target 2 times. By casting the axe ambush, 3 axes spawn and fly in 3 directions. While doing that they dealt damage on hit (piercing). After they've reached max range, they started to seek their nearest target and deal the same damage and conditions again. Since those 3 directions were widely spread, the outer 2 axes often miss against small hitboxes. You could work against that by positioning yourself inside the enemy hitbox but then the clones still missed.

    Against a large hitbox, even the outer 2 axes hit the target. So what that meant is against large each ambush hit 3 axes times 2 hits times 4 casters (3 clones + you). Against a small hitbox around 33% less. This lead to ~45k large hitbox dps. Against a small hitbox you were only able to get ~40k but only by placing the clones inside the target hitbox aswell and never using axe #3 as this skill repositions the clones. So in raids this barely would have been possible...


    How it is now:

    They simply removed the possibility for axes to hit twice by removing the seeking part if a specific axe hit something. So axes spawn, deal damage, don't seek. Axes spawn, miss, seek. This basically means an up to 50% damage nerf to the axe ambush and clearly it's impact hasn't been tested good enough. So what happened is that the damage difference between large and small hitbox has been completely removed (which is a good thing!), but the damage has been reduced to values no longer viable for raids (which is a very bad and sad thing...).

    The damage has been reduced from ~45k large / ~40k small to ~28k any hitbox. 28k is utterly weak for a pure dps spec without any other support. Mirage is essentially the same as a condi thief and should still be able to hit the ~34k on a golem in my opinion. In the current state, the old phantasm mirage is now stronger than the clone build again. So back to boring old "set up 3 illus and wait" again. But even that build has been cut down to nothing more than ~31k dps.


    TL;DR: Mirage is basically dead for the time being. I'm sorry. I hope we'll get some love again ... in like 3 months or so. I suggest to try other professions for the time being. Currently Holosmith and Renegade are highly wanted for raids. I'm not quite sure what's bis against Matthias tho...


    Greez o/

    Thanks for your in depth explanation to everyone. Its a shame that this fix wasn't tested enough (or maybe it was and this is their idea of a high DPS mesmer build.....). I wonder what the best way to fix this would be? I imagine it is difficult to fix the ambush to work properly without hitting targets multiple times, which is why the current fix has dropped our DPS so heavily

    Eyyyy I unlocked signatures

  • @OriOri.8724 said:
    Thanks for your in depth explanation to everyone. Its a shame that this fix wasn't tested enough (or maybe it was and this is their idea of a high DPS mesmer build.....). I wonder what the best way to fix this would be? I imagine it is difficult to fix the ambush to work properly without hitting targets multiple times, which is why the current fix has dropped our DPS so heavily

    Without letting their worries on PvP/WvW holding them back, they'll have to do a PvE/PvP split and increase existing ambush effect by 1.5-1.75 to bring clone mirage on par with other dps builds. Increase in duration by that amount rather than stacks would probably match their future goals of "condi should not be burst".

    [RED] Crimson Sunspears...your small family guild since 2015.

  • Can a dev confirm if the clone axes aren't properly hitting/seeking? I feel the damage loss is far too great to be attributed to the double hit bug that was fixed in todays patch. Something definitely doesn't feel right about our current output.

  • FaboBabo.3581FaboBabo.3581 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited November 29, 2017

    So a new thing is now that clone ambushes sometimes dont hit at all .

    Meaning ; i have IH traited. I spawn 3 illus. I use my ambush. My clones will use amsbush too, but they have no intention to hit anything.

    IH is now even useless in PvE - great.

    Well now since IH is almost only cosmetic now + a little bit of might or vunerability with GS and Staff , or some delayed 0.25 dazes, can we have it baseline now and get a dps trait? And can we rework dune cloak so we dont have 2 dps traits, in which one is NEVER taken , when the other One is better ?

    And maybe ...just maybe... Could you Test Things before releasing?

    Comminity needed like 1 day maximum to point out all bugs. In beta state ; we pointed out several bugs after 1 day. After Release we pointed out bugs after 1 day. After 28.11 Patch we showed the new axe bug Within houres.

    U tell me u spent 2 years designing this spec and u never saw those bugs? - yeah sure...

    Like really guys ; Imagine the final test of mirage prerelease.

    Anet: lets check staff ambush
    Result ; never Hits
    Anet: hm who cares, lets check axe. Axe ambush First.
    Result ; 10 trys. 10 different results
    Anet: hm who cares. Lets check axe 3
    Result ; gets teleported backwards, Strikes different target etc.
    Anet; hm who cares, lets check illusionary ambush
    Result; gets stucked in walls.
    Anet: seems like we did great job. Spec is ready for release!

    ??????

    Mirage since Day 1 - It got better!

  • @Veprovina.4876 said:
    Oh, so they broke the Axe ambush... Now the ambush only hits with 1 axe making it borderline useless...

    No it still hits with all **the axes, but only **once per axe.

    @Aylaine.1036 said:
    Can a dev confirm if the clone axes aren't properly hitting/seeking? I feel the damage loss is far too great to be attributed to the double hit bug that was fixed in todays patch. Something definitely doesn't feel right about our current output.

    Well the clones also hit 50% less often, so the bleeding on illusion crit trait got halved too. The ambush was basically all the damage the Mirage had and it has been up to halved. If you have 40k DpS, let's say 75% of that was the Ambush -> 30k/2 + the remaining 10k = 25k. Pretty much this. Just overnerfed is all. :(

    @FaboBabo.3581 said:
    So a new thing is now that clone ambushes sometimes dont hit at all .
    Meaning ; i have IH traited. I spawn 3 illus. I use my ambush. My clones will use amsbush too, but they have no intention to hit anything.

    By "no intention to hit anything" do you mean the seeking part? As far as I know it now works like this: If an axe spawns and deals damage before skeeing, it won't seek out and just despawn at max range.

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