Would you accept thief in your raid group? — Guild Wars 2 Forums

Would you accept thief in your raid group?

Cynz.9437Cynz.9437 Member ✭✭✭✭
edited November 30, 2017 in Fractals, Dungeons, and Raids

As title states, would you accept thief in your raid group and why?

GW is P2Win. We are always lied to.

Would you accept thief in your raid group? 85 votes

Yes
71%
mazut.4296TheSlothArmada.6709OriOri.8724meeflak.9714Sublimatio.6981ButterPeanut.9746Aktium.9506NotOverlyCheesy.9427perry.9645Asum.4960Faaris.8013Lalainnia.3598Underdark.3726Zaraki.5784XxsdgxX.8109Warscythes.9307Aodhan.9071FrizzFreston.5290Mourningcry.9428ArthurDent.9538 61 votes
No
18%
Kheldorn.5123Solori.6025Amicable Pugs.4503Niobium.7392Mister Asdasd.6194Daniel.5428Hornet.6357Coolguy.8702Imperadordf.2687Gemnaid.4219I Insanity I.3278Ahlen.7591Chad.3825Aetatis.5418nimitz.2348inthemist.9720 16 votes
Other (comment please)
9%
I Starmore I.4832Chris McSwag.4683Zlater.6789Feanor.2358thrag.9740LadyKitty.6120jwaz.1908Niksuli.9751 8 votes

Comments

  • Yes

    With the Mirage bugfix Condi Thief might be top DPS on certain bosses. Even if not, its DPS is still really good on the bosses it is used on.
    If we are talking Power thief... Maybe?
    I havent seen a power thief join my squads in months.

  • Feanor.2358Feanor.2358 Member ✭✭✭✭
    Other (comment please)

    I got exactly the same question regarding a fractal party yesterday. I'm going to answer in the same way - every class is OK, as long as you do comparable dps.

  • apharma.3741apharma.3741 Member ✭✭✭✭
    Yes

    The power creep with PoF and GotL changes means

    1) everyone has a build open to them that has the potential of 30k or more which should kill bosses easily.
    2) every raid group can afford to have an extra dps class even if you’re running really safe support builds which means more group dps most of the time.

    Mind you don’t turn up on healer thief or some other weird thing that is more of an experimental build than established meta or decent.

    Besides I thought you already raided regularly Cynz.

  • Cynz.9437Cynz.9437 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited November 30, 2017

    @apharma.3741 said:
    The power creep with PoF and GotL changes means

    1) everyone has a build open to them that has the potential of 30k or more which should kill bosses easily.
    2) every raid group can afford to have an extra dps class even if you’re running really safe support builds which means more group dps most of the time.

    Mind you don’t turn up on healer thief or some other weird thing that is more of an experimental build than established meta or decent.

    Besides I thought you already raided regularly Cynz.

    I made the thread because i would like to know whether there are actually players that would accept thief because my personal experience was very different (i usually raid with mes/ele). I would like to try to play my main (thief duhh) in raids again.

    GW is P2Win. We are always lied to.

  • apharma.3741apharma.3741 Member ✭✭✭✭
    Yes

    @Cynz.9437 said:

    @apharma.3741 said:
    The power creep with PoF and GotL changes means

    1) everyone has a build open to them that has the potential of 30k or more which should kill bosses easily.
    2) every raid group can afford to have an extra dps class even if you’re running really safe support builds which means more group dps most of the time.

    Mind you don’t turn up on healer thief or some other weird thing that is more of an experimental build than established meta or decent.

    Besides I thought you already raided regularly Cynz.

    I made the thread because i would like to know whether there are actually players that would accept thief because my personal experience was very different (i usually raid with mes/ele). I actually would like to try to play my main (thief duhh) in raids again.

    I’m sorry to hear that, never fun when you don’t get to play your main class. I hope you can find a static group that has a spot for dps and will allow you to run it.

  • Jeknar.6184Jeknar.6184 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Feanor.2358 said:
    I got exactly the same question regarding a fractal party yesterday. I'm going to answer in the same way - every class is OK, as long as you do comparable dps.

    Comparable DPS to the top meta classes? Then basically you are saying no because these builds are meta for a reason: Because they do the most DPS.

    Ferguson's Crossing Mithril Squire (Rank 5001) - PvP Phoenix (Rank 72) - 30k Achievement Points
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  • apharma.3741apharma.3741 Member ✭✭✭✭
    Yes

    @Jeknar.6184 said:

    @Feanor.2358 said:
    I got exactly the same question regarding a fractal party yesterday. I'm going to answer in the same way - every class is OK, as long as you do comparable dps.

    Comparable DPS to the top meta classes? Then basically you are saying no because these builds are meta for a reason: Because they do the most DPS.

    https://qtfy.eu/guildwars/benchmarks-11-07-17/

    I wasn’t aware that a 4K difference in potential max dps was so raid critical now we have 5 dps spots. I guess I had best request 5 weaver only runs else we might fail the extremely tight enrage timers.

  • thrag.9740thrag.9740 Member ✭✭✭
    Other (comment please)

    As in condi thief? Sure as long as it is a fight where condi thief is a reasonable choice. If they only have condi thief and are joining me for a full clear? No, condi thief is bad at sloth, xera, and kc.

    There are only a few builds that are meta at every encounter. bs warrior, might druid, off chrono

    Dps roles are highly situational, such a broad question doesn't really make sense.

  • Yes

    I don't really raid, but in fractal CMs I can tell you that particular class composition doesn't mean much. Some of the fastest runs I've ever done didn't have a chronobuffer. All I ask is that somebody is capable and competent, and then the class doesn't matter as much.

    "Self awareness is knowing when you're sitting at the throne of ignorance." --Leo G.

  • thrag.9740thrag.9740 Member ✭✭✭
    Other (comment please)

    @apharma.3741 said:

    @Jeknar.6184 said:

    @Feanor.2358 said:
    I got exactly the same question regarding a fractal party yesterday. I'm going to answer in the same way - every class is OK, as long as you do comparable dps.

    Comparable DPS to the top meta classes? Then basically you are saying no because these builds are meta for a reason: Because they do the most DPS.

    https://qtfy.eu/guildwars/benchmarks-11-07-17/

    I wasn’t aware that a 4K difference in potential max dps was so raid critical now we have 5 dps spots. I guess I had best request 5 weaver only runs else we might fail the extremely tight enrage timers.

    It sounds like you believe the 5 dps slots means the party has more dps now. I just want to clear up possible misconceptions, total group dps is lower now, because we no longer have grace of the land buff. Despite having more dps slots now, we have less total dps. The dps gain of swapping 2 cps to 1 bs + dps is less than the loss from everyone losing gotl.

    As far as enrage timers, it depends what your group is trying to do. Stand still xera? Not the easiest dps check to clear.

  • goku.6152goku.6152 Member ✭✭
    edited December 1, 2017

    Yes.. only if it's Nathan Drake

  • Zlater.6789Zlater.6789 Member ✭✭✭
    Other (comment please)

    I think you should distinguish condi thief and power thief. Power thief really is trash now, like I would be kicking them the moment I see a signet of agility. But condi is pretty strong on a number of bosses.

    Would I kick a deadeye? Yeah 100% get that outta my pug.

  • zoomborg.9462zoomborg.9462 Member ✭✭✭

    @Cynz.9437 said:

    @apharma.3741 said:
    The power creep with PoF and GotL changes means

    1) everyone has a build open to them that has the potential of 30k or more which should kill bosses easily.
    2) every raid group can afford to have an extra dps class even if you’re running really safe support builds which means more group dps most of the time.

    Mind you don’t turn up on healer thief or some other weird thing that is more of an experimental build than established meta or decent.

    Besides I thought you already raided regularly Cynz.

    I made the thread because i would like to know whether there are actually players that would accept thief because my personal experience was very different (i usually raid with mes/ele). I would like to try to play my main (thief duhh) in raids again.

    U should have made the poll with more options cause while condi thief is really strong, power thief is a no-no for me.

  • Cynz.9437Cynz.9437 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited December 1, 2017

    @zoomborg.9462 said:

    @Cynz.9437 said:

    @apharma.3741 said:
    The power creep with PoF and GotL changes means

    1) everyone has a build open to them that has the potential of 30k or more which should kill bosses easily.
    2) every raid group can afford to have an extra dps class even if you’re running really safe support builds which means more group dps most of the time.

    Mind you don’t turn up on healer thief or some other weird thing that is more of an experimental build than established meta or decent.

    Besides I thought you already raided regularly Cynz.

    I made the thread because i would like to know whether there are actually players that would accept thief because my personal experience was very different (i usually raid with mes/ele). I would like to try to play my main (thief duhh) in raids again.

    U should have made the poll with more options cause while condi thief is really strong, power thief is a no-no for me.

    I don't think it is issue for thief main to run multiple builds honestly hence why i didn't include condi/power. I think if people join raids, they should be able to adapt their builds to the group/fight to reasonable extend.

    GW is P2Win. We are always lied to.

  • apharma.3741apharma.3741 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited December 1, 2017
    Yes

    @thrag.9740 said:

    @apharma.3741 said:

    @Jeknar.6184 said:

    @Feanor.2358 said:
    I got exactly the same question regarding a fractal party yesterday. I'm going to answer in the same way - every class is OK, as long as you do comparable dps.

    Comparable DPS to the top meta classes? Then basically you are saying no because these builds are meta for a reason: Because they do the most DPS.

    https://qtfy.eu/guildwars/benchmarks-11-07-17/

    I wasn’t aware that a 4K difference in potential max dps was so raid critical now we have 5 dps spots. I guess I had best request 5 weaver only runs else we might fail the extremely tight enrage timers.

    It sounds like you believe the 5 dps slots means the party has more dps now. I just want to clear up possible misconceptions, total group dps is lower now, because we no longer have grace of the land buff. Despite having more dps slots now, we have less total dps. The dps gain of swapping 2 cps to 1 bs + dps is less than the loss from everyone losing gotl.

    As far as enrage timers, it depends what your group is trying to do. Stand still xera? Not the easiest dps check to clear.

    You’re still not going to hit enrage timers even with the slight loss of dps from losing GotL. Raids had plenty of wiggle room for those who could find their backsides with one hand.


    Sloth kill post GotL nerf end group dps from a competent group 145k


    Sloth kill before GotL nerf end group dps from a competent group 135k

    The enrage timer isn’t close to being tight, one of those eles could go and play staff DD and pull similar numbers and as we can see one group did 10k less damage than the other yet it was a comfortable kill. Even if you were running harrier druids and lost another 10k it would be extremely comfortable so your comment is probably not entirely correct about meta comps doing less damage, on the face of it the GotL change is looking about the same.

    Remember what qT put at the start of their benchmarks? Don’t be a class kitten.

  • Henry.5713Henry.5713 Member ✭✭✭✭
    Yes

    Certainly. As long as they are willing to play the most effective build or at least not something that is only half as good.

    Progress isn't made by early risers. It's made by lazy men trying to find easier ways to do something. ~ Robert Heinlein

  • thrag.9740thrag.9740 Member ✭✭✭
    Other (comment please)

    @apharma.3741 said:

    @thrag.9740 said:

    @apharma.3741 said:

    @Jeknar.6184 said:

    @Feanor.2358 said:
    I got exactly the same question regarding a fractal party yesterday. I'm going to answer in the same way - every class is OK, as long as you do comparable dps.

    Comparable DPS to the top meta classes? Then basically you are saying no because these builds are meta for a reason: Because they do the most DPS.

    https://qtfy.eu/guildwars/benchmarks-11-07-17/

    I wasn’t aware that a 4K difference in potential max dps was so raid critical now we have 5 dps spots. I guess I had best request 5 weaver only runs else we might fail the extremely tight enrage timers.

    It sounds like you believe the 5 dps slots means the party has more dps now. I just want to clear up possible misconceptions, total group dps is lower now, because we no longer have grace of the land buff. Despite having more dps slots now, we have less total dps. The dps gain of swapping 2 cps to 1 bs + dps is less than the loss from everyone losing gotl.

    As far as enrage timers, it depends what your group is trying to do. Stand still xera? Not the easiest dps check to clear.

    You’re still not going to hit enrage timers even with the slight loss of dps from losing GotL. Raids had plenty of wiggle room for those who could find their backsides with one hand.


    Sloth kill post GotL nerf end group dps from a competent group 145k


    Sloth kill before GotL nerf end group dps from a competent group 135k

    The enrage timer isn’t close to being tight, one of those eles could go and play staff DD and pull similar numbers and as we can see one group did 10k less damage than the other yet it was a comfortable kill. Even if you were running harrier druids and lost another 10k it would be extremely comfortable so your comment is probably not entirely correct about meta comps doing less damage, on the face of it the GotL change is looking about the same.

    Remember what qT put at the start of their benchmarks? Don’t be a class kitten.

    I think you had trouble reading what I said, so I will repeat myself. It depends what you want to do. Enrage timers are not the main restriction of dps, it is kill method. Stand still xera vs move strat, kc stay in for bombs vs go out for bombs, xera stand still, number of floor phases at vg, cairn stand still (not that many groups do this lol). These choices are what determine how much dps you need, almost no real strategy plans to hit enrage timer. The fact that enrage timers are irrelevant, is also irrelevant.

    Qt can say whatever they want about pugging, because qt doesn't pug.

  • apharma.3741apharma.3741 Member ✭✭✭✭
    Yes

    @thrag.9740 said:

    @apharma.3741 said:

    @thrag.9740 said:

    @apharma.3741 said:

    @Jeknar.6184 said:

    @Feanor.2358 said:
    I got exactly the same question regarding a fractal party yesterday. I'm going to answer in the same way - every class is OK, as long as you do comparable dps.

    Comparable DPS to the top meta classes? Then basically you are saying no because these builds are meta for a reason: Because they do the most DPS.

    https://qtfy.eu/guildwars/benchmarks-11-07-17/

    I wasn’t aware that a 4K difference in potential max dps was so raid critical now we have 5 dps spots. I guess I had best request 5 weaver only runs else we might fail the extremely tight enrage timers.

    It sounds like you believe the 5 dps slots means the party has more dps now. I just want to clear up possible misconceptions, total group dps is lower now, because we no longer have grace of the land buff. Despite having more dps slots now, we have less total dps. The dps gain of swapping 2 cps to 1 bs + dps is less than the loss from everyone losing gotl.

    As far as enrage timers, it depends what your group is trying to do. Stand still xera? Not the easiest dps check to clear.

    You’re still not going to hit enrage timers even with the slight loss of dps from losing GotL. Raids had plenty of wiggle room for those who could find their backsides with one hand.


    Sloth kill post GotL nerf end group dps from a competent group 145k


    Sloth kill before GotL nerf end group dps from a competent group 135k

    The enrage timer isn’t close to being tight, one of those eles could go and play staff DD and pull similar numbers and as we can see one group did 10k less damage than the other yet it was a comfortable kill. Even if you were running harrier druids and lost another 10k it would be extremely comfortable so your comment is probably not entirely correct about meta comps doing less damage, on the face of it the GotL change is looking about the same.

    Remember what qT put at the start of their benchmarks? Don’t be a class kitten.

    I think you had trouble reading what I said, so I will repeat myself. It depends what you want to do. Enrage timers are not the main restriction of dps, it is kill method. Stand still xera vs move strat, kc stay in for bombs vs go out for bombs, xera stand still, number of floor phases at vg, cairn stand still (not that many groups do this lol). These choices are what determine how much dps you need, almost no real strategy plans to hit enrage timer. The fact that enrage timers are irrelevant, is also irrelevant.

    Qt can say whatever they want about pugging, because qt doesn't pug.

    Again, using a power DD that has a max golem dps of 29.8k vs a weaver doing 33.9k isn’t going to make the difference between doing different strats as if you are playing with decent to good players the raid group dps will be high enough for both. We aren’t even considering how much easier it is to mess up on weaver vs DD and how the DD will likely do the exact same damage as the weavers in most raid groups.

    The videos were to show that raid group DPS has not changed substantially that it is worth being an elitist over the classes for DPS. If a group fails a strategy it isn’t because of the classes they brought (within reason) but because they people playing the classes didn’t bring their A game.

  • Faaris.8013Faaris.8013 Member ✭✭✭✭
    Yes

    I play mainly Power DD and have little raiding experience, but I can do consistent 28k dps at Deimos with good support. Not so good at other raid bosses, but as long as you don't join a speed-clear group, it's more than enough to avoid enrage timers. For me, it doesn't matter if we lose 20 seconds in a raid because another class could do 4k dps more. You need enough support already though. A warrior can bring similar dps but add more to the whole group than a thief. I do feel like my thief lacks value in raids, that's why I started practicing my chrono and healer (and gearing up my condi thief). Thief bascially didn't get any new elite. While I see many players with Scourge, Holosmith, Herald, Weaver, Mirage etc. in the game, I see no Deadeyes, except in WvW. For thieves, nothing changed. Of course, if you boost every class except one, that one class becomes less valuable in comparison for upper tier content. In T4 fractals, thief still has a role for mechanics, but try to do challenge motes with it...

  • Raguel.9402Raguel.9402 Member ✭✭✭
    Yes

    Thief has always been a good dps it just never brought much apart from CC and dps. In competent hands it can be very good and I would never say no to a Thief, depending on the boss of course, in raids.

    Done a fullclear on my holo yesterday and we pretty much killed everything first try.

    Bring the player, not the class, within reason ;)

    Thief is fine.

  • thrag.9740thrag.9740 Member ✭✭✭
    Other (comment please)

    @apharma.3741 said:

    @thrag.9740 said:

    @apharma.3741 said:

    @thrag.9740 said:

    @apharma.3741 said:

    @Jeknar.6184 said:

    @Feanor.2358 said:
    I got exactly the same question regarding a fractal party yesterday. I'm going to answer in the same way - every class is OK, as long as you do comparable dps.

    Comparable DPS to the top meta classes? Then basically you are saying no because these builds are meta for a reason: Because they do the most DPS.

    https://qtfy.eu/guildwars/benchmarks-11-07-17/

    I wasn’t aware that a 4K difference in potential max dps was so raid critical now we have 5 dps spots. I guess I had best request 5 weaver only runs else we might fail the extremely tight enrage timers.

    It sounds like you believe the 5 dps slots means the party has more dps now. I just want to clear up possible misconceptions, total group dps is lower now, because we no longer have grace of the land buff. Despite having more dps slots now, we have less total dps. The dps gain of swapping 2 cps to 1 bs + dps is less than the loss from everyone losing gotl.

    As far as enrage timers, it depends what your group is trying to do. Stand still xera? Not the easiest dps check to clear.

    You’re still not going to hit enrage timers even with the slight loss of dps from losing GotL. Raids had plenty of wiggle room for those who could find their backsides with one hand.


    Sloth kill post GotL nerf end group dps from a competent group 145k


    Sloth kill before GotL nerf end group dps from a competent group 135k

    The enrage timer isn’t close to being tight, one of those eles could go and play staff DD and pull similar numbers and as we can see one group did 10k less damage than the other yet it was a comfortable kill. Even if you were running harrier druids and lost another 10k it would be extremely comfortable so your comment is probably not entirely correct about meta comps doing less damage, on the face of it the GotL change is looking about the same.

    Remember what qT put at the start of their benchmarks? Don’t be a class kitten.

    I think you had trouble reading what I said, so I will repeat myself. It depends what you want to do. Enrage timers are not the main restriction of dps, it is kill method. Stand still xera vs move strat, kc stay in for bombs vs go out for bombs, xera stand still, number of floor phases at vg, cairn stand still (not that many groups do this lol). These choices are what determine how much dps you need, almost no real strategy plans to hit enrage timer. The fact that enrage timers are irrelevant, is also irrelevant.

    Qt can say whatever they want about pugging, because qt doesn't pug.

    Again, using a power DD that has a max golem dps of 29.8k vs a weaver doing 33.9k isn’t going to make the difference between doing different strats as if you are playing with decent to good players the raid group dps will be high enough for both. We aren’t even considering how much easier it is to mess up on weaver vs DD and how the DD will likely do the exact same damage as the weavers in most raid groups.

    The videos were to show that raid group DPS has not changed substantially that it is worth being an elitist over the classes for DPS. If a group fails a strategy it isn’t because of the classes they brought (within reason) but because they people playing the classes didn’t bring their A game.

    I don't know if your being deceptive because your ignorant, or because you think I have never raided before. Either way, it hurts your argument. Weaver burst vs power dd burst is not even close. Wana do 1 orb kc? Go try it with thief, try it with weaver. Let me know how it goes. If all you want to do is get a 5 orb kill, run w/e you want. Like I said, again and again, it depends what you want to do.

    Since you like videos so much, here is a video of a weaver doing an opening burst of 60k

    Can power dd do that? No? Well I guess power dd wouldnt be good for 1 orb kc. At the same time, weaver wont hit 60k opening on a small hit box. Its almost like classes have differences, and if you want to accomplish specific goals you might need specific builds.

  • LadyKitty.6120LadyKitty.6120 Member ✭✭✭
    Other (comment please)

    Kitty plays a thief and she accepts other thieves in raids. Thief isn't a good burster, but it does quite solid DPS with non-existent skill requirement.

    As deadeye on revealing bosses: Malice -> auto-attack-> that orb utility when malice is full -> auto-attack and repeat 'til boss reaches 25% and then some dag 2 when malice is full. And on other bosses the same, except staying behind the boss (which should be done anyway on most bosses) and dagger 5 -> stealth-attack every now and then.

    It's Kitty. The young lady who streams and records videos playing various (non-)metabuilds. Raid/fractal videos at youtube.com/LadyKitty, announcements and news at twitter.com/LadyKittyGW2 and streams at twitch.tv/ladykittygw2 . Build guides at https://kittymarks.wixsite.com/kittymarks .

  • Yes

    I'm not sure about DPS or whatever, but I don't see a point in being discriminatory against a person who likes to play a specific class. To me it's the more the merrier scenario, some extra damage is better than none at all. I prefer to see it optimistically, some people just take games WAY too seriously and become these chauvinistic snobbos just because you spent points wrong or don't have a specific build that's out on the internet or God knows what else. I'm here to chill out, level myself at my own pace, and I welcome all with open arms because we're all different and I'm cool with that. Just don't be a damned preacher and all is gravy ;D

  • apharma.3741apharma.3741 Member ✭✭✭✭
    Yes

    @thrag.9740 said:

    @apharma.3741 said:

    @thrag.9740 said:

    @apharma.3741 said:

    @thrag.9740 said:

    @apharma.3741 said:

    @Jeknar.6184 said:

    @Feanor.2358 said:
    I got exactly the same question regarding a fractal party yesterday. I'm going to answer in the same way - every class is OK, as long as you do comparable dps.

    Comparable DPS to the top meta classes? Then basically you are saying no because these builds are meta for a reason: Because they do the most DPS.

    https://qtfy.eu/guildwars/benchmarks-11-07-17/

    I wasn’t aware that a 4K difference in potential max dps was so raid critical now we have 5 dps spots. I guess I had best request 5 weaver only runs else we might fail the extremely tight enrage timers.

    It sounds like you believe the 5 dps slots means the party has more dps now. I just want to clear up possible misconceptions, total group dps is lower now, because we no longer have grace of the land buff. Despite having more dps slots now, we have less total dps. The dps gain of swapping 2 cps to 1 bs + dps is less than the loss from everyone losing gotl.

    As far as enrage timers, it depends what your group is trying to do. Stand still xera? Not the easiest dps check to clear.

    You’re still not going to hit enrage timers even with the slight loss of dps from losing GotL. Raids had plenty of wiggle room for those who could find their backsides with one hand.


    Sloth kill post GotL nerf end group dps from a competent group 145k


    Sloth kill before GotL nerf end group dps from a competent group 135k

    The enrage timer isn’t close to being tight, one of those eles could go and play staff DD and pull similar numbers and as we can see one group did 10k less damage than the other yet it was a comfortable kill. Even if you were running harrier druids and lost another 10k it would be extremely comfortable so your comment is probably not entirely correct about meta comps doing less damage, on the face of it the GotL change is looking about the same.

    Remember what qT put at the start of their benchmarks? Don’t be a class kitten.

    I think you had trouble reading what I said, so I will repeat myself. It depends what you want to do. Enrage timers are not the main restriction of dps, it is kill method. Stand still xera vs move strat, kc stay in for bombs vs go out for bombs, xera stand still, number of floor phases at vg, cairn stand still (not that many groups do this lol). These choices are what determine how much dps you need, almost no real strategy plans to hit enrage timer. The fact that enrage timers are irrelevant, is also irrelevant.

    Qt can say whatever they want about pugging, because qt doesn't pug.

    Again, using a power DD that has a max golem dps of 29.8k vs a weaver doing 33.9k isn’t going to make the difference between doing different strats as if you are playing with decent to good players the raid group dps will be high enough for both. We aren’t even considering how much easier it is to mess up on weaver vs DD and how the DD will likely do the exact same damage as the weavers in most raid groups.

    The videos were to show that raid group DPS has not changed substantially that it is worth being an elitist over the classes for DPS. If a group fails a strategy it isn’t because of the classes they brought (within reason) but because they people playing the classes didn’t bring their A game.

    I don't know if your being deceptive because your ignorant, or because you think I have never raided before. Either way, it hurts your argument. Weaver burst vs power dd burst is not even close. Wana do 1 orb kc? Go try it with thief, try it with weaver. Let me know how it goes. If all you want to do is get a 5 orb kill, run w/e you want. Like I said, again and again, it depends what you want to do.

    Since you like videos so much, here is a video of a weaver doing an opening burst of 60k

    Can power dd do that? No? Well I guess power dd wouldnt be good for 1 orb kc. At the same time, weaver wont hit 60k opening on a small hit box. Its almost like classes have differences, and if you want to accomplish specific goals you might need specific builds.

    So now we are moving the discussion onto one of the few places it matters, 1 orb KC? You didn’t actually mention 1 orb KC in your examples so I ignored it only move out for bombs or not which again weaver or DD it won’t matter as you’ll kill the phantasms quick enough with any competent group and the DD will contribute to the breakbar far more than the weaver usually unless icebows lined up well.

    Stand still start on Xera, again it won’t be affected by having a DD instead of a weaver, likewise anything you do on Gorseval or VG. The only example where you had any standing was Cairn because it can be a pain seeing those teleport circles when directly on top but then thief just steals back in so no biggy.

    You’re pulling at straws as burst damage is only really relevant on 1 boss and even then only really low orb runs. Once again there’s very few places where running a DD instead of a weaver will cause a fail whatever you are doing.

  • thrag.9740thrag.9740 Member ✭✭✭
    Other (comment please)

    @apharma.3741 said:
    So now we are moving the discussion onto one of the few places it matters, 1 orb KC?

    Bro, I feel like I'm talking to a brick wall. I cant do it anymore. See:

    @thrag.9740 said:
    Dps roles are highly situational, such a broad question doesn't really make sense.

    and

    @thrag.9740 said:
    As far as enrage timers, it depends what your group is trying to do.

  • Faaris.8013Faaris.8013 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited December 6, 2017
    Yes

    @Mellodia.7534 said:
    I'm not sure about DPS or whatever, but I don't see a point in being discriminatory against a person who likes to play a specific class. To me it's the more the merrier scenario, some extra damage is better than none at all. I prefer to see it optimistically, some people just take games WAY too seriously and become these chauvinistic snobbos just because you spent points wrong or don't have a specific build that's out on the internet or God knows what else. I'm here to chill out, level myself at my own pace, and I welcome all with open arms because we're all different and I'm cool with that. Just don't be a damned preacher and all is gravy ;D

    You clearly haven't been in the carrying part of the group often. I don't mind carrying from time to time, even non-guild-members. After a while, it becomes tedious though, and you wonder why the berserker does slightly more damage than the healer. It's not about being too serious, it's just not fun to struggle at encounters that are generally easy, simply because people don't live up to their classes potential, not even close. For many players, and I include myself here, a chill out T4 run or raid is one where you don't have to struggle unneccessarily.

    Back to topic, I feel like my thief does not contribute enough to raids compared to other classes, that's why I adjust and learn other classes that allow a smoother raiding experience. Just as I trait for staff at T4 fractals most of the time and use it instead of my favourite weapon set: double pistols. It would just be not fair to the other group members to fight 20 mobs with a single target weapon.

  • apharma.3741apharma.3741 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited December 6, 2017
    Yes

    @thrag.9740 said:

    @apharma.3741 said:
    So now we are moving the discussion onto one of the few places it matters, 1 orb KC?

    Bro, I feel like I'm talking to a brick wall. I cant do it anymore. See:

    @thrag.9740 said:
    Dps roles are highly situational, such a broad question doesn't really make sense.

    and

    @thrag.9740 said:
    As far as enrage timers, it depends what your group is trying to do.

    Likewise, I am saying that for most of the time it doesn’t matter or can you honestly come up with more than 3 scenarios in any regular raid group where taking a DD over a weaver will cause a fail because right now I only see an elitist coming up with excuses. Excuses that are very niche to say the least.

    The question I thought was pretty simple, would you take a thief into your raid group. I have yet to see anyone put a valid reason why they would exclude a thief from a regular raid group, you know where it would cause a raid wipe.

    “We have added new builds in the updated benchmarks. Remember, don't be a class kitten and have fun.“ -qT

  • Shirlias.8104Shirlias.8104 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Faaris.8013 said:
    Back to topic, I feel like my thief does not contribute enough to raids compared to other classes, that's why I adjust and learn other classes that allow a smoother raiding experience. Just as I trait for staff at T4 fractals most of the time and use it instead of my favourite weapon set: double pistols. It would just be not fair to the other group members to fight 20 mobs with a single target weapon.

    Unfortunately, you are kitten right ( talking about t4, i bring S + P/P ).

  • Yes

    I never lead a raid group, but I don't really mind what anyone brings. I normally run condi mirage, occasionally power dragonhunter, and when it's called for, my magi druid gets to show her face. I am pretty consistently in the top 3 dps places (mostly in the number 1 spot actually) when I'm on my mirage. When I'm on my power dh I'm usually in top 3, even though my dh does generally more damage than my mirage.

    We allowed a scourge to join for VG, and he did ok - as in he didn't die, he was vocal, he gave constructive feedback and he used portals to help with greens and to do quick resses. His dps was 3k and after we got the kill he said he was full Magi. Go figure. Did that one player who did abysmal dps stop us from clearing? No. Did that one player with abysmal dps cause us to get a win in fewer tries? Possibly, as he actually saved our tank on a few occassions with portal resses and with portaling to a few greens that would have been missed otherwise. Is Magi scourge a viable build? I don't think so.

    Likewise, if a thief know what they're doing and bring something to the team, I see no reason what so ever as not to bring them. But also, my raiding experience is with mostly a semi-static raid group (whoever is online for our raid events are allowed to join) and we fill with whatever is missing from lfg. If we need 1 chrono to fill and a thief joins then that's a kick - because it's not what we wanted.

  • Other (comment please)

    @thrag.9740 said:

    @apharma.3741 said:

    @thrag.9740 said:

    @apharma.3741 said:

    @thrag.9740 said:

    @apharma.3741 said:

    @Jeknar.6184 said:

    @Feanor.2358 said:
    I got exactly the same question regarding a fractal party yesterday. I'm going to answer in the same way - every class is OK, as long as you do comparable dps.

    Comparable DPS to the top meta classes? Then basically you are saying no because these builds are meta for a reason: Because they do the most DPS.

    https://qtfy.eu/guildwars/benchmarks-11-07-17/

    I wasn’t aware that a 4K difference in potential max dps was so raid critical now we have 5 dps spots. I guess I had best request 5 weaver only runs else we might fail the extremely tight enrage timers.

    It sounds like you believe the 5 dps slots means the party has more dps now. I just want to clear up possible misconceptions, total group dps is lower now, because we no longer have grace of the land buff. Despite having more dps slots now, we have less total dps. The dps gain of swapping 2 cps to 1 bs + dps is less than the loss from everyone losing gotl.

    As far as enrage timers, it depends what your group is trying to do. Stand still xera? Not the easiest dps check to clear.

    You’re still not going to hit enrage timers even with the slight loss of dps from losing GotL. Raids had plenty of wiggle room for those who could find their backsides with one hand.


    Sloth kill post GotL nerf end group dps from a competent group 145k


    Sloth kill before GotL nerf end group dps from a competent group 135k

    The enrage timer isn’t close to being tight, one of those eles could go and play staff DD and pull similar numbers and as we can see one group did 10k less damage than the other yet it was a comfortable kill. Even if you were running harrier druids and lost another 10k it would be extremely comfortable so your comment is probably not entirely correct about meta comps doing less damage, on the face of it the GotL change is looking about the same.

    Remember what qT put at the start of their benchmarks? Don’t be a class kitten.

    I think you had trouble reading what I said, so I will repeat myself. It depends what you want to do. Enrage timers are not the main restriction of dps, it is kill method. Stand still xera vs move strat, kc stay in for bombs vs go out for bombs, xera stand still, number of floor phases at vg, cairn stand still (not that many groups do this lol). These choices are what determine how much dps you need, almost no real strategy plans to hit enrage timer. The fact that enrage timers are irrelevant, is also irrelevant.

    Qt can say whatever they want about pugging, because qt doesn't pug.

    Again, using a power DD that has a max golem dps of 29.8k vs a weaver doing 33.9k isn’t going to make the difference between doing different strats as if you are playing with decent to good players the raid group dps will be high enough for both. We aren’t even considering how much easier it is to mess up on weaver vs DD and how the DD will likely do the exact same damage as the weavers in most raid groups.

    The videos were to show that raid group DPS has not changed substantially that it is worth being an elitist over the classes for DPS. If a group fails a strategy it isn’t because of the classes they brought (within reason) but because they people playing the classes didn’t bring their A game.

    I don't know if your being deceptive because your ignorant, or because you think I have never raided before. Either way, it hurts your argument. Weaver burst vs power dd burst is not even close. Wana do 1 orb kc? Go try it with thief, try it with weaver. Let me know how it goes. If all you want to do is get a 5 orb kill, run w/e you want. Like I said, again and again, it depends what you want to do.

    Since you like videos so much, here is a video of a weaver doing an opening burst of 60k

    Can power dd do that? No? Well I guess power dd wouldnt be good for 1 orb kc. At the same time, weaver wont hit 60k opening on a small hit box. Its almost like classes have differences, and if you want to accomplish specific goals you might need specific builds.

    Idk if you’ve done one orb kc yourself, but coming from someone that does it weekly: you don’t need the full burst from 5-6 weavers in order to pass the dps check. The same goes for xera in mid and so on.

    Under the assumption that you have an experienced group of somewhat high skill, you’ll be fine replacing a weaver(or whatever is best in slot) or two with something that does less dps. I wouldn’t say the same is applicable to pugs, but since they generally prioritise safety over speed it doesn’t really matter anyway.

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