About Warden Amala, Dervish and Balthazar[PoF and Daybreak spoiler] — Guild Wars 2 Forums

About Warden Amala, Dervish and Balthazar[PoF and Daybreak spoiler]

We know dervish can use Gods form and power.

When we fight Warden Amala , during Meta fight and story, she channelize Balthazar Form even if this one is dead.
Looking better this form is more darker than the classical one.
Is It possible the war between brothers in FoW was ended with Menzies's victory?

This will explain 'cause the gods are always named "The six" while Balthazar was stripped down the title without any canonical war between gods, the quote about war, and his hunger about gain power back even if all Tyria will be destroyed.
This will explain also "Lyssa gave his mirror to Balthazar" theory, to hide Menzies her help, not to whole panthon.

Comments

  • Pax.3548Pax.3548 Member ✭✭✭

    @nihavel.6592 said:
    We know dervish can use Gods form and power.

    When we fight Warden Amala , during Meta fight and story, she channelize Balthazar Form even if this one is dead.
    Looking better this form is more darker than the classical one.
    Is It possible the war between brothers in FoW was ended with Menzies's victory?

    This will explain 'cause the gods are always named "The six" while Balthazar was stripped down the title without any canonical war between gods, the quote about war, and his hunger about gain power back even if all Tyria will be destroyed.
    This will explain also "Lyssa gave his mirror to Balthazar" theory, to hide Menzies her help, not to whole panthon.

    I think is quite the contrary, balthazar won that war just before getting stripped of his power, mostly because if menzhies really won, balthazar would have been stripped/killed by him, not the other gods. But truly, we don't have any confirmation yet about the result of that war.

  • Konig Des Todes.2086Konig Des Todes.2086 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited November 30, 2017

    The Strange Burning Scrolls during Night of Fires imply to me that Menzies was defeated, rather than the other way around, though it makes it clear that the battle certainly ended.

    Balthazar was stripped of his power by the other gods, however, so his defeat at Menzies seems unlikely, as would a sudden cease fire to be the end of the war (and I cannot see the other gods giving Balthazar's power to Menzies, who aided Dhuum and Abaddon and himself is notorious for evil and deception).

    That power that belongs to the "god of war", regardless of who owns the mantle, exists still. It's possible the dervishes are drawing from that instead, and that the appearance is determined on the user's interpretation. Alternatively it could be as Athrenn says and the dervishes are not drawing on the power of the gods themselves, but the idea of the gods (which would be pretty similar to guardian's power being based on faith).

  • Dervish are a priest/warrior. More the dervish are devoted to the gods, more power the gods lend to the dervish.
    It's a spiritual link between dervish and Gods, So if a dervish have a Balthazar-like power someone deliver his power.

    Strange Burning Scroll just say Devona join Balthazar army in FoW. She don't tell us result.

    We know gods when starting fighting each other the result is a disater. Elona and FoW itself are the result. Kormir herself choose leave instead protect Tyria from Balthazar.
    In this scenario, a war between Balthazar and the five will destroy the Mist.
    So only Menzies is in open war with Balthazar.
    The Six always accepted other member passively like Kormir and Grenth, so if Menzies won the war and stripped down Balthazar power he became a formal member of The Six, even if he's evil.

    Kormir said They are always Six when Balthazar lost his role, anyway someone replace him.

  • draxynnic.3719draxynnic.3719 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Athrenn.9468 said:
    My interpretation is that dervishes are like revenants, except they specialize in communing with the legends of the Six. Take Shiro for example. Pretty dead, right? Well, turns out a dead guy can still pack quite a punch if you know how to channel his memory. Balthazar's memory is probably just as potent in the Mists.

    It's also a common theme in the interactions between humans and the gods that the latent powers of the gods are already contained within humanity. These are what is being invoked when humans use their racial skills.

    From this perspective, dervishes do seem to be like revenants... except instead of drawing power from legends in the Mists, they're drawing it from their own latent divinity. Basically, what human PCs can dabble in using the human racial skills, dervishes have developed to a much more advanced level whereby the most powerful dervishes can invoke these powers to the level shown in dervish avatars.

    From this viewpoint, it makes sense that the avatars haven't changed - the avatars are set according to which gods granted their blessings to humanity in the first place, not according to the current state of the pantheon. This might also explain why we're not seeing any avatars of Kormir.

  • Konig Des Todes.2086Konig Des Todes.2086 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited December 1, 2017

    @nihavel.6592 said:
    Strange Burning Scroll just say Devona join Balthazar army in FoW. She don't tell us result.

    One of them talks about the Eternal Battle in past tense, as if it has ended.

    "Once, we followed the rules of the Eternal Battle, but this campaign is too important to be left to chance. These mortals would otherwise be swept away by their own foolish choices."

    "we followed the rules of the Eternal Battle" but don't anymore, implies that the Eternal Battle ended, and its "rules" were followed even after but they ceased to follow them for the events of Path of Fire.

    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Strange_Burning_Scroll

    @nihavel.6592 said:
    We know gods when starting fighting each other the result is a disater. Elona and FoW itself are the result. Kormir herself choose leave instead protect Tyria from Balthazar.
    In this scenario, a war between Balthazar and the five will destroy the Mist.
    So only Menzies is in open war with Balthazar.
    The Six always accepted other member passively like Kormir and Grenth, so if Menzies won the war and stripped down Balthazar power he became a formal member of The Six, even if he's evil.

    Kormir said They are always Six when Balthazar lost his role, anyway someone replace him.

    In both Kormir's and Grenth's case, the new member was replacing an obvious evil individual. Both Abaddon and Dhuum were actively consuming souls and causing troubles. Menzies was doing the same as Abaddon and Dhuum, whereas Balthazar was not yet doing such (he only turned chaotic evil after the events of Season 3; between the events of GW1 and Season 3 he had become chaotic neutral, effectively, while in GW1 and before he was more of neutral good/true neutral - to use D&D morality system).

    There is no implied case of a war between the five and Balthazar, but at the same time we don't have anything telling us there wasn't; all we know for certain that Balthazar was a god when he threatened the others with killing them after he killed the Elder Dragons, and that Kormir told us that the gods were the ones who imprisoned Balthazar and stripped him of power, and Balthazar tells us the same indirectly.

    The main thing differentiating Balthazar and Abaddon's rebellion and fall before imprisonment, is that Abaddon had gathered an army then declared war, while Balthazar declared war in a council meeting of sorts. This meant Balthazar was woefully unprepared. We're comparing an individual prepared for a drawn out battle, and an individual who just got done with a shouting match, and saying "well the result would be the same since both cases are 1 god versus 5 gods". Thing is, it wasn't - Abaddon was "1 god capable of felling two + an army versus 5 gods + an army" while Balthazar was "1 god proclaiming to be 'mightiest god' versus 5 gods" and that's a mighty big difference.

  • Any formation who lose the war could say "we followed our rule".
    As I said before, we don't know who win anyway.

    Balthazar was the god of war who have an army in FoW and this army was fighting in a secular/millenial battle agaist his brother.
    I think Balthazar is far away from being unprepared.

    Kormir say the six stripped Balthazar power and imprisonated him, but about the Rytlock's joke about the five Kormir correct him they are always Six.

    Lady Kasmeer Meade: I—please excuse me, Goddess. Perhaps I wasn't clear—we can't hope to defeat Balthazar without the aid of the Six.
    Rytlock Brimstone: Or the five. Balthazar is one of the Six.
    Kormir: No. He isn't. Balthazar has been stripped of his claim and title. He is no longer one of the Six.

    Anyway we have already a Unknow God.
    The only one who respect the lore until now is Menzies even if he'evil.
    And if he's a formal one of The Six and he stripped the balthazar's power, the Six stripped Balthazar's power. (Kormir half-truth)
    The other gods could avoid a battle with Menzies, 'cause it'll become a calamity, accepting him.

  • Makes me wonder though if Balthazaar's imprisonment, much like Joko, was done to prevent Menzies from usurping. Without his brother's full power, he wouldn't be able to break the chains and being in Grenth's domain, without considerable help from Dhuum, Menzies wouldn't be able to attain the throne of his brother. So Kormir saying there are always six would still hold true and not necessarily mean that someone else became the God of War and Fire.

  • @Athrenn.9468 said:
    My interpretation is that dervishes are like revenants, except they specialize in communing with the legends of the Six. Take Shiro for example. Pretty dead, right? Well, turns out a dead guy can still pack quite a punch if you know how to channel his memory. Balthazar's memory is probably just as potent in the Mists.

    yeah thats not how dervish work....

    "Serving the gods as holy warriors, dervishes stand confidently in the whirlwind of conflict. Martial techniques perfected in the deserts of Elona allow a Dervish’s scythe to lash out quickly at multiple opponents, surrounding the holy warrior with a swath of destruction. Initiates often learn spells of self-protection, prayers that rush a combatant into battle, and invocations that empower attacks with elemental fury. Masters of the profession can assume the form of a god, enacting divine will with holy blessings. Keenly aware of the conditions of a fight, a Dervish can reap great benefits by using multiple Enchantments. Wandering the savannahs and deserts of Elona, the faithful Dervish chants prayers to the earth and wind... and the fury of the sandstorm answers in response."

    — The Guild Wars Nightfall Manuscripts

  • Athrenn.9468Athrenn.9468 Member ✭✭✭

    @Zhaveh.6801

    Note the anthropocentric bias of the manuscripts. They were written based on our understanding of the world in that time period, not from an omniscient perspective.

  • Feanor.2358Feanor.2358 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @draxynnic.3719 said:

    @Athrenn.9468 said:
    My interpretation is that dervishes are like revenants, except they specialize in communing with the legends of the Six. Take Shiro for example. Pretty dead, right? Well, turns out a dead guy can still pack quite a punch if you know how to channel his memory. Balthazar's memory is probably just as potent in the Mists.

    It's also a common theme in the interactions between humans and the gods that the latent powers of the gods are already contained within humanity. These are what is being invoked when humans use their racial skills.

    From this perspective, dervishes do seem to be like revenants... except instead of drawing power from legends in the Mists, they're drawing it from their own latent divinity. Basically, what human PCs can dabble in using the human racial skills, dervishes have developed to a much more advanced level whereby the most powerful dervishes can invoke these powers to the level shown in dervish avatars.

    From this viewpoint, it makes sense that the avatars haven't changed - the avatars are set according to which gods granted their blessings to humanity in the first place, not according to the current state of the pantheon. This might also explain why we're not seeing any avatars of Kormir.

    But why aren't we seeing avatars of Abaddon? And why we're seeing Sunspear Amala channel Dwayna and we're seeing that Awakened Amala doesn't?

  • @Feanor.2358 said:

    @draxynnic.3719 said:

    @Athrenn.9468 said:
    My interpretation is that dervishes are like revenants, except they specialize in communing with the legends of the Six. Take Shiro for example. Pretty dead, right? Well, turns out a dead guy can still pack quite a punch if you know how to channel his memory. Balthazar's memory is probably just as potent in the Mists.

    It's also a common theme in the interactions between humans and the gods that the latent powers of the gods are already contained within humanity. These are what is being invoked when humans use their racial skills.

    From this perspective, dervishes do seem to be like revenants... except instead of drawing power from legends in the Mists, they're drawing it from their own latent divinity. Basically, what human PCs can dabble in using the human racial skills, dervishes have developed to a much more advanced level whereby the most powerful dervishes can invoke these powers to the level shown in dervish avatars.

    From this viewpoint, it makes sense that the avatars haven't changed - the avatars are set according to which gods granted their blessings to humanity in the first place, not according to the current state of the pantheon. This might also explain why we're not seeing any avatars of Kormir.

    But why aren't we seeing avatars of Abaddon? And why we're seeing Sunspear Amala channel Dwayna and we're seeing that Awakened Amala doesn't?

    Awakened Amala does the Dwayna form, as long as you don't burn her down so fast that it's blink-and-you-miss-it.

    R.I.P., Old Man of Auld Red Wharf. Gone but never forgotten.

  • Feanor.2358Feanor.2358 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Really? I've never seen the lightning attacks, not once.

  • @Ronin.7381 said:
    Makes me wonder though if Balthazaar's imprisonment, much like Joko, was done to prevent Menzies from usurping. Without his brother's full power, he wouldn't be able to break the chains and being in Grenth's domain, without considerable help from Dhuum, Menzies wouldn't be able to attain the throne of his brother. So Kormir saying there are always six would still hold true and not necessarily mean that someone else became the God of War and Fire.

    The story makes it clear that Balthazar is no longer a god. Not just Kormir's words, but the entire plot of Season 3 was, ultimately, for Balthazar to regain power. Devs during the PoF AMA even reaffirmed that the Balthazar we fought in PoF was not on par to an actual god.

  • @Athrenn.9468 said:
    @Zhaveh.6801

    Note the anthropocentric bias of the manuscripts. They were written based on our understanding of the world in that time period, not from an omniscient perspective.

    yeah... until new info from the devs comes out I'll disagree with you on that one.

  • @Feanor.2358 said:
    But why aren't we seeing avatars of Abaddon? And why we're seeing Sunspear Amala channel Dwayna and we're seeing that Awakened Amala doesn't?

    Varesh Ossa was a dervish who channalize Abbadon in a margonite like form but this one fully corrupt her and she become a margonite at all.

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:
    The story makes it clear that Balthazar is no longer a god. Not just Kormir's words, but the entire plot of Season 3 was, ultimately, for Balthazar to regain power. Devs during the PoF AMA even reaffirmed that the Balthazar we fought in PoF was not on par to an actual god.

    Balthazar isn't a former member of the six and his power was stripped away, but he is a fallen god who is still a god.
    He can move in and out the mist.
    He bless, ignite, and improve a sword.
    He enhanced the eternal in Forged form.
    He can form portal between fow/mist and Tyria.
    He can summon fire like nothing before.

    And he is powerless.

    And Kormir confirm Balthazar is still a god in Facing the Truth

    Kormir: By the time the ruse was revealed, the other gods had already departed. And soon I will join them.
    : You don't have to go. You could stay. Fight with us.
    Kormir: You ask for a war between the gods. Do you not know the cost of such a battle?
    Kormir: Have you not learned from the last time the gods stood against one of their own—against Abaddon?

    She never said balthazar is no more a god, she said he lost his claim, the title of one of the six, and his power.

    Lady Kasmeer Meade: I—please excuse me, Goddess. Perhaps I wasn't clear—we can't hope to defeat Balthazar without the aid of the Six.
    Rytlock Brimstone: Or the five. Balthazar is one of the Six.
    Kormir: No. He isn't. Balthazar has been stripped of his claim and title. He is no longer one of the Six.

    Kormir: We stripped him of his power, and chained him in the Mists. There he would remain, forever—powerless to carry out his plans.

  • Rodzynald.5897Rodzynald.5897 Member ✭✭✭
    edited January 13, 2018

    If you play Twilight Oasis fractal you can fight Amala before she was awakened. She taps into 5 forms of gods but this is not what I want to talk about.
    From what I and a bunch of friends in our roleplaying guild came to, even after the gods really left Tyria for good, what humans can do and what dervishes can do is just materialized faith with woven magic into it. It is said that paragons also tap into divine power but they still are alive and kickin' after the gods left. Besides if I am not mistaken, it might have been stated somewhere that after Nightfall their numbers started to dwindle, but I am not 100% sure. But still, in my book it's faith and force of will that just got into a more "physical" state to be used as a tool, perhaps with a little divine mix that the human race might share.
    So in the end of the day what Amala did was just mix some magic and faith into her combat skill that worked around imitating avatars' fighting style. I don't think she would be able to use divine powers after being corrupted with awakening, and her mind binded to Joko's will.

    Casual friendly and quality pvp - these two do not work well together.

  • @nihavel.6592 said:

    @Feanor.2358 said:
    But why aren't we seeing avatars of Abaddon? And why we're seeing Sunspear Amala channel Dwayna and we're seeing that Awakened Amala doesn't?

    Varesh Ossa was a dervish who channalize Abbadon in a margonite like form but this one fully corrupt her and she become a margonite at all.

    No, she had actually became a Margonite. We literally killed her, and she was brought back to life as a Margonite.

    @nihavel.6592 said:
    He can move in and out the mist.
    He bless, ignite, and improve a sword.
    He enhanced the eternal in Forged form.
    He can form portal between fow/mist and Tyria.

    Balthazar cannot move in and out of the Mists at will - we see no evidence of this. He requires portals. While he was able to make one in the Mists, dialogue implies that he and Joko went through the Tomb of the Primeval Kings to reach the Underworld, and he had his forces make use of the Mouth of Torment rather than create his own portal in gods-know-where to the Realm of Torment. And the fact he didn't bother creating other portals to, say, Dwayna's realm and Melandru's indicates that he couldn't make portals at will.

    Nothing says he improved Sohothin. Or blessed it. Not while he was imprisoned at least. Sohothin was described by a dev to be "Balthazar's own sword" which implies that he had created the two swords while a god, and might have even been the one who gifted them to Ascalonian royalty.

    The Forged wasn't made by his own magic though, but by reverse engineering a Forgotten ritual.

    @nihavel.6592 said:
    Balthazar isn't a former member of the six and his power was stripped away, but he is a fallen god who is still a god.
    [...]
    And Kormir confirm Balthazar is still a god in Facing the Truth

    Kormir: By the time the ruse was revealed, the other gods had already departed. And soon I will join them.
    : You don't have to go. You could stay. Fight with us.
    Kormir: You ask for a war between the gods. Do you not know the cost of such a battle?
    Kormir: Have you not learned from the last time the gods stood against one of their own—against Abaddon?

    She never said balthazar is no more a god, she said he lost his claim, the title of one of the six, and his power.

    Lady Kasmeer Meade: I—please excuse me, Goddess. Perhaps I wasn't clear—we can't hope to defeat Balthazar without the aid of the Six.
    Rytlock Brimstone: Or the five. Balthazar is one of the Six.
    Kormir: No. He isn't. Balthazar has been stripped of his claim and title. He is no longer one of the Six.

    Kormir: We stripped him of his power, and chained him in the Mists. There he would remain, forever—powerless to carry out his plans.

    Right. She says he is no longer one of the Six. But it's still the Six. So he had a successor. He lost his power, which is what defines the six as gods. So he is no longer a god, because he no longer is one of the Six or has the power of one of the Six.

    We can come to this conclusion easily because of Dhuum's situation and lore.

    Dhuum is outright stated to no longer be a god on many occasions. He is a former god, not a fallen god. Balthazar is in the same position as Dhuum - a powerful being higher than mortals but lower than gods, capable of regaining power through abnormal means.

    Balthazar is not a fallen god like Abaddon, who still had all his power and title of godhood even if forgotten. Balthazar is a former god like Dhuum, who does not have his power or title of godhood.

  • nihavel.6592nihavel.6592 Member ✭✭
    edited January 14, 2018

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:
    No, she had actually became a Margonite. We literally killed her, and she was brought back to life as a Margonite.

    I'm talking about Prophet Varesh.
    http://guildwars.wikia.com/wiki/File:Prophet_Varesh.jpg

    In this part of Nightfall's story Varesh is a dervish who worship Abaddon and have a margonite like form.

    Balthazar cannot move in and out of the Mists at will - we see no evidence of this. He requires portals. While he was able to make one in the Mists, dialogue implies that he and Joko went through the Tomb of the Primeval Kings to reach the Underworld, and he had his forces make use of the Mouth of Torment rather than create his own portal in gods-know-where to the Realm of Torment. And the fact he didn't bother creating other portals to, say, Dwayna's realm and Melandru's indicates that he couldn't make portals at will.

    He take out from mist orfFoW the eternal.
    I don't think Devona and the other ones can use portal.

    Nothing says he improved Sohothin. Or blessed it. Not while he was imprisoned at least. Sohothin was described by a dev to be "Balthazar's own sword" which implies that he had created the two swords while a god, and might have even been the one who gifted them to Ascalonian royalty.

    But in all GW history for first time Sohothin unlesh so much power.

    The Forged wasn't made by his own magic though, but by reverse engineering a Forgotten ritual.

    Done from Balthazar alone.

    We can come to this conclusion easily because of Dhuum's situation and lore.

    Dhuum is outright stated to no longer be a god on many occasions. He is a former god, not a fallen god. Balthazar is in the same position as Dhuum - a powerful being higher than mortals but lower than gods, capable of regaining power through abnormal means.

    Balthazar is not a fallen god like Abaddon, who still had all his power and title of godhood even if forgotten. Balthazar is a former god like Dhuum, who does not have his power or title of godhood.

    The great mistake you 're doing is "The Six" are the human benevolent panthon. Not all the gods.
    "Benevolent " gods enchain "evil" gods so they can avoid cataclysm like old elona and FoW.
    Dhumm was enchained.
    Abaddon was enchained.
    Balthazar was enchained.

    And the Kormir quote about balthazar is still a god is:

    Kormir: You ask for a war between the gods. Do you not know the cost of such a battle?

    If Balthazar is only "a powerful being higher than mortals but lower than gods" that quote is worthless.

  • Sublimatio.6981Sublimatio.6981 Member ✭✭✭
    edited January 15, 2018

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:
    Dhuum is outright stated to no longer be a god on many occasions. He is a former god, not a fallen god. Balthazar is in the same position as Dhuum

    I'm sorry but week before you personally quoted an NPC saying it's a fallen god and now you make this incorrect claim for the sake of winning an argument? Kinda funny.

    Edit: And even better, 2 weeks before you said the same thing

    Dec 28: Balthazar is former god, not fallen
    January 7: Balthazar is fallen god, proof: Glenna.
    January 14: Balthazar is former god, not fallen

    "clang clang shriiiiek clang!" -Belinda Delaqua
    When I join your LFG

  • Konig Des Todes.2086Konig Des Todes.2086 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 15, 2018

    @nihavel.6592 said:

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:
    No, she had actually became a Margonite. We literally killed her, and she was brought back to life as a Margonite.

    I'm talking about Prophet Varesh.
    http://guildwars.wikia.com/wiki/File:Prophet_Varesh.jpg

    In this part of Nightfall's story Varesh is a dervish who worship Abaddon and have a margonite like form.

    Yes. So was I.

    We kill Varesh, we see her body disappear. Then she comes back in her "Margonite with a skin face" form.

    That's not a dervish avatar form. She was turned into an actual Margonite.

    @nihavel.6592 said:
    He take out from mist orfFoW the eternal.
    I don't think Devona and the other ones can use portal.

    We don't really know how or when he took the Eternals out. Besides this, we know the Underworld, which he had access to via Joko, is connected to the Fissure of Woe from GW1 (Enslaved Hero goes to face Grenth's Judgement, does this by walking).

    @nihavel.6592 said:
    But in all GW history for first time Sohothin unlesh so much power.

    "Technically" no. Magdaer, just as powerful as Sohothin, was able to cause the Foefire after all. So it's always been possible of insane feats.

    Why we could do it and Rytlock cannot / does not, however, is left unanswered.

    But no one ever goes "okay, why is Sohothin suddenly so much more powerful?" so I'm willing to bet that everyone knew it was so powerful, and we never see such because mechanics (cannot have Rytlock carry the PC all the time after all, the player has to feel like the kitten).

    @nihavel.6592 said:
    Done from Balthazar alone.

    Balthazar using a mortal race's magic doesn't make him a god. Besides, he made the first Forged with Joko, not alone.

    Also, we see it done by Zaishen and Forged as well. Balthazar didn't create each and every Forged. He created the first, then let them create the rest.

    @nihavel.6592 said:
    The great mistake you 're doing is "The Six" are the human benevolent panthon. Not all the gods.
    "Benevolent " gods enchain "evil" gods so they can avoid cataclysm like old elona and FoW.
    Dhumm was enchained.
    Abaddon was enchained.
    Balthazar was enchained.

    And the Kormir quote about balthazar is still a god is:

    Kormir: You ask for a war between the gods. Do you not know the cost of such a battle?

    If Balthazar is only "a powerful being higher than mortals but lower than gods" that quote is worthless.

    And the greatest mistake you're doing is that "The Six" is not the sole pantheon the gods are known by. For over a thousand years they went by the title "The Five" because, hint hint, there were five gods known to mortals (when Abaddon was enchained).

    Your very argument would be for the claim that Balthazar has a successor as proven by Kormir's dialogue! If "The Six" only refers to "benevolent gods" and Balthazar was no longer such and was enchained, then it would no longer be The Six by The Five!

    Besides which Kormir would be more used to saying The Five as that's the title she knew the gods by for almost all of her mortal life, and had Balthazar no successor, by most of her immortal life too.

    ArenaNet themselves have admitted that he is no longer a god during the PoF AMA. Kormir's line of "a war between the gods" is just dramatic flare. And it's painfully obvious its so if you look at all the facts.

    @Sublimatio.6981 said:

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:
    Dhuum is outright stated to no longer be a god on many occasions. He is a former god, not a fallen god. Balthazar is in the same position as Dhuum

    I'm sorry but week before you personally quoted an NPC saying it's a fallen god and now you make this incorrect claim for the sake of winning an argument? Kinda funny.

    Edit: And even better, 2 weeks before you said the same thing

    Dec 28: Balthazar is former god, not fallen
    January 7: Balthazar is fallen god, proof: Glenna.
    January 14: Balthazar is former god, not fallen

    I use the term "former" while ArenaNet does not, this is for the sake of clarity. Just like how they use "lieutenant" to define what The Judge is, a term they use alongside "champion" for a wide variety of things and rankings, they list Dhuum, Abaddon, and Balthazar all as "fallen gods" all together, rather than dividing them by different terms.

    Abaddon is a "fallen god" in that he retained his divinity but had "fallen from grace/history of mankind". Dhuum and Balthazar are "fallen gods" in that they did not retain their divinity so they "fell from godhood". That's confusing as kitten. So I say Dhuum and Balthazar are "former gods" because they no longer have any divinity in them - ergo, no longer gods - and I use "fallen gods" to refer to gods like Abaddon who had went from good to bad, active to imprisoned, while retaining godhood.

    In this sense, Balthazar went from "god" to "fallen god" to "former god".

    I'm not contradicting myself, or being contradicted by the game. I'm just being more specific and clear in labels than ArenaNet is.

    Side note: Glenna doesn't call Balthazar a fallen god, in all technicality, just Dhuum. But again, ArenaNet and their "I'm not specific so I'm going to use general terms to mean a wide variety of things" methodology of writing.

    I mean, ArenaNet uses the term "dragon champion" and "dragon lieutenant" to refer specifically to the dragon shaped minions ala Tequatl, Claw of Jormag, The Shatterer, but then they also use the term "lieutenant" to mean minor minions that follow champions around, and they also use "champion" to refer to any minion that has an IQ greater than 0.

    It's confusing as hell, and all because they cannot think about widening their vocabulary.

  • nihavel.6592nihavel.6592 Member ✭✭
    edited January 16, 2018

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

    Yes. So was I.

    We kill Varesh, we see her body disappear. Then she comes back in her "Margonite with a skin face" form.

    That's not a dervish avatar form. She was turned into an actual Margonite.

    You're confusing with commander Varesh.
    https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/gwwikia/images/f/f9/Commander_Varesh.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20061228164144

    Prophet Varesh had tecnically Abaddon avatar 'cause was a dervish who workships Abaddon for 3/4 of the game.

    And the greatest mistake you're doing is that "The Six" is not the sole pantheon the gods are known by. For over a thousand years they went by the title "The Five" because, hint hint, there were five gods known to mortals (when Abaddon was enchained).

    Your very argument would be for the claim that Balthazar has a successor as proven by Kormir's dialogue! If "The Six" only refers to "benevolent gods" and Balthazar was no longer such and was enchained, then it would no longer be The Six by The Five!

    Besides which Kormir would be more used to saying The Five as that's the title she knew the gods by for almost all of her mortal life, and had Balthazar no successor, by most of her immortal life too.

    ArenaNet themselves have admitted that he is no longer a god during the PoF AMA. Kormir's line of "a war between the gods" is just dramatic flare. And it's painfully obvious its so if you look at all the facts.

    Infact I said there are more Gods, not only the six.
    Menzies, Balthazar and Dhumm are evil gods.
    We Know 1/3 of all the world, maybe there are other gods in the world.
    Mellegan maybe is another one, maybe not. Quaggans say she's dead but Melandru is alive. This confirm they are two entity. But Quaggans are quaggans so maybe Mellagan is a shoe.
    Arenanet has a wide open door about the gods.

    The six are the benevolent Gods. Tyrian pray for them.
    So 250 years ago the the benevolent Gods were five.
    And I suppose, about Kormir's quote, we have an Unknow God, who trust in Tyrians (or if Menzies got Balthazar's role, he become neutral.) cause she said they are always six.
    The five/Six are just a title. Even Kormir said that.

    Kormir explain us because war between Gods is a bad thing for about 5/10 minute and she is pretty angry when we ask her help about fighting another god.
    It's a littler more of a "Just a dramatic flare".
    And nowhere someone prove Balthazar isn't a god.
    We know only Balthazar lose his power.

  • ugrakarma.9416ugrakarma.9416 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Balthazar's anthology of power is not very clear after his fall. In this case, we should understand things in simple ways. Gods have powers at cataclysmic levels, they can recreate planets, destroy whole continents. Balthazar no longer has that power, so he desperately sought to kill an elder dragon (which is the entities in Tyria with powers at those levels) to absorb their magic and have powers at the level of a real God again,. For this, he had to try various devices, such as creating his own army and a "special weapon" to kill Kralkatorrik. The fallen Balthazar looks more like a kind of very powerful wizard.

    Tannhauser Engineer(SoS) | Atlantean Sword | Khel the Undead

  • Walhalla.5473Walhalla.5473 Member ✭✭✭

    @nihavel.6592 To be a god you need special power/magic, it isn't just a title. If you obtain it, you are a god, if you loose it you aren't anymore. And the biggest proof that Balthazar isn't a god anymore is the following. We weren't blinded by looking at him. ( Look at Kormir, she blinds us just by being there ) This side effect is occuring naturally to any god, if you aren't being blinded while looking at someone who proclaims to be a god or is called a god, then that guy isn't a god. Doesn't matter how many call him a god, if he doesn't have the divine powers, than he isn't.

    If you kill a god or take his godhood away, you need to contain the godly powers somehow, otherwise you'll get a nuke

  • This is what Peter Fries said in a tweet about Awakened Amala channeling Balthazar:

    She isn't channeling Balthazar, she's channeling Joko's power in a way that in life she would have channeled Balthazar Source

    As for the state of Menzies and the Eternal Battle, we may have another clue from Scott McGough in a reddit comment:

    Balth the god of war had been more or less idle since the Exodus, with very little in the way of human contact or terrestrial combat. He's a fiery god of action and he was champing at the bit for the chance to do what he was born to do (as he sees it). Source

    For Balthazar to be "more or less idle" means that there may have been a change in the status of the Eternal Battle for him to feel bored and want get back into action when the Elder Dragons provided him with that chance for glorious combat. Whether this means Menzies was slain/imprisoned or fled somewhere beyond Balthazar's reach, however, is unknown at this time.

    Personally I hope Menzies hasn't been dealt with off screen as he has potential to be at least a raid boss if not more. It would be interesting to learn more about his and Balthazar's lineage and how exactly Menzies became such a powerful opponent to Balthazar to begin with if that story is ever touched upon. :)

  • Konig Des Todes.2086Konig Des Todes.2086 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 17, 2018

    @nihavel.6592 said:

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

    Yes. So was I.

    We kill Varesh, we see her body disappear. Then she comes back in her "Margonite with a skin face" form.

    That's not a dervish avatar form. She was turned into an actual Margonite.

    You're confusing with commander Varesh.
    https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/gwwikia/images/f/f9/Commander_Varesh.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20061228164144

    Prophet Varesh had tecnically Abaddon avatar 'cause was a dervish who workships Abaddon for 3/4 of the game.

    I actually am not. Prophet Varesh was not an avatar. It was her slowly becoming transformed into a Margonite.

    The only difference between "Prophet Varesh" and "Warmarshal Varesh" is paler skin and four bumps that would soon become eyes. That isn't an avatar, which takes on the full scale appearance of a god, even going so far as to changing your apparent gender.

    If Varesh was using an "Avatar of Abaddon" skill, she would have tentacle hair more than likely and be a dude during that time.

    @nihavel.6592 said:
    Infact I said there are more Gods, not only the six.
    Menzies, Balthazar and Dhumm are evil gods.
    We Know 1/3 of all the world, maybe there are other gods in the world.
    Mellegan maybe is another one, maybe not. Quaggans say she's dead but Melandru is alive. This confirm they are two entity. But Quaggans are quaggans so maybe Mellagan is a shoe.
    Arenanet has a wide open door about the gods.

    The six are the benevolent Gods. Tyrian pray for them.
    So 250 years ago the the benevolent Gods were five.
    And I suppose, about Kormir's quote, we have an Unknow God, who trust in Tyrians (or if Menzies got Balthazar's role, he become neutral.) cause she said they are always six.
    The five/Six are just a title. Even Kormir said that.

    Kormir explain us because war between Gods is a bad thing for about 5/10 minute and she is pretty angry when we ask her help about fighting another god.
    It's a littler more of a "Just a dramatic flare".
    And nowhere someone prove Balthazar isn't a god.
    We know only Balthazar lose his power.

    • Menzies is not a god. Never once even implied to be a demigod let alone a god. We don't know what he is.
    • Dhuum is not a god. Dhuum was a god. Pretty big difference there. He is never once referred to as a god - beyond in the past tense - in either game.
    • There are gods beyond The Six, yes, but The Six are called such because there are six of those gods, and those gods have very specific attributes that Balthazar lacks in S3/PoF - least of all being the blinding bit.
    • Yes, there are other gods, but they are wholly unrelated to the Six Gods, unlike Balthazar, Abaddon, and Dhuum who are/were part of the Six Gods pantheon. It's like saying "there are norse gods and there are greek gods so a greek god that is no longer an Olympian is still a god" - it's a false equivalence argument. We do not know what makes those other gods to be "gods", but we do know what makes the Six to be "gods".
    • The Six Gods are NOT benevolent. While they do veer towards good, as they tend to outcast and replace their evil members, their pantheon is not innately benevolent. Even Dwayna has a dark side.
    • The Five/Six is more than "just a title". It's divinity. One can only be a god of the Six if they have that divinity, that power which was released upon Abaddon's death, the power which blinds mortals who looks upon gods. We do not know if other gods have this, but losing this means losing divinity - losing godhood.
    • Saying that fighting Balthazar is a "war between gods" is indeed dramatic flare given that he lost his divinity, his power, his godhood. This is the entire purpose behind Flashpoint. Balthazar himself says he lost his divinity:

    Balthazar: They abated me, dimmed my light... But they will see me now.

    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Heart_of_the_Volcano_(story)

    So do the developers of the game:

    [...] it's important to remember that Balthazar's power level is not at the same level when the other gods stripped him of his power and chained him in the Mists. The power he wields in PoF is what he's regained since absorbing a bloodstone and Taimi's machine.

    https://www.reddit.com/r/Guildwars2/comments/74qjlh/path_of_fire_devs_here_ask_us_anything/do0hz8w/?st=j9nk3g6t&sh=4eadf480

    If the unique power is what makes a god (both the act of absorbing power turning Kormir into a god, and the fact a mortal could become a god, proves this) and he was stripped of his power, as well as his title as god of the Six, then he was stripped of his godhood.

    Just like Dhuum.

    Unlike Abaddon.

    This is why we are not blinded when looking upon Balthazar but we are when looking at Kormir. Mortals go blind when looking upon a god. This is why the power Balthazar unleashed at the end of Path of Fire was not threatening to destroy everything like with Abaddon. Because it was the power of a Bloodstone and two Elder Dragons, not a god.

    He was no longer a god. Not just "he was no longer of the Six", but "he was no longer a god in general".

    But his nature, whatever that be - demigod perhaps - allowed him to do more than what mortals could do. And the same goes for Dhuum.

    TL;DR

    "God" in GWverse is more than just being insanely power, but is not tied to biology. Given Dhuum and Balthazar, becoming a god changes one's physiology, but losing the power that turned them into a god in the first place makes them no longer a god, but they are not mortal again either - they would be best defined as a demigod.

    Balthazar lost his power. The Six's power is their godhood. Ergo he lost his godhood.

    Simple logic here.

  • @Kossage.9072 said:

    Balth the god of war had been more or less idle since the Exodus, with very little in the way of human contact or terrestrial combat. He's a fiery god of action and he was champing at the bit for the chance to do what he was born to do (as he sees it). Source

    For Balthazar to be "more or less idle" means that there may have been a change in the status of the Eternal Battle for him to feel bored and want get back into action when the Elder Dragons provided him with that chance for glorious combat. Whether this means Menzies was slain/imprisoned or fled somewhere beyond Balthazar's reach, however, is unknown at this time.

    Personally I hope Menzies hasn't been dealt with off screen as he has potential to be at least a raid boss if not more. It would be interesting to learn more about his and Balthazar's lineage and how exactly Menzies became such a powerful opponent to Balthazar to begin with if that story is ever touched upon. :)

    The problem with that line and conclusion is that the Eternal Battle - and in turn Menzies' well being - was very much active during GW1, which was only 250 years ago and well after (by 1,070 years) the Exodus.

    Balthazar may not have been partaking in the Eternal Battle though, but that would mean a change in the Eternal Battle wouldn't really be needed to make him want to go after the Elder Dragons.

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