Is Power Creep Acceptable? — Guild Wars 2 Forums

Is Power Creep Acceptable?

SkyShroud.2865SkyShroud.2865 Member ✭✭✭✭
edited November 30, 2017 in Guild Wars 2 Discussion

Last time we had this topic in the old forums but there isn't any poll back then. Now we got a poll!
For the benefits of the newcomers, over the course of 5 years, our dps have grew from 10-15k range to 30-45k range.
People kept on asking for more difficult contents but the way I see is that, contents were made easier due to ever growing power creep.

Founder & Leader of Equinox Solstice [TIME], a Singapore-Based International PvX Guild
Henge of Denravi Server
www.gw2time.com

--

Explanations of WvW Structures & Populations Issues

Is Power Creep Acceptable? 137 votes

Yes
25%
Ariurotl.3718TheSlothArmada.6709IndigoSundown.5419Zacchary.6183DeanBB.4268Silmar Alech.4305MachineManXX.9746Dual.8953Keriana.9635PzTnT.7198endurio.7065bluEwhO.8327Mikezaner.1524Rennie.6750Cakemeister.5792WeedyZeGreedy.8635Lucas.2974NICENIKESHOE.7128Ziooo.8932lifeshoutslive.4163 35 votes
No
63%
nottsgman.8206Snipe Evon.8549ReaverKane.7598OriOri.8724meeflak.9714LanfearShadowflame.3189TheGrimm.5624Arzurag.7506Rauderi.8706Nick Lentz.6982SkyShroud.2865Xcorpdog.2840Vlad Morbius.1759DietPepsi.4371JSmooth.7654Alatar.7364Spurnshadow.3678Mea.5491Malediktus.9250BlueBudgie.2179 87 votes
I don't care
10%
TexZero.7910Haleydawn.3764Sylent.3165Ohoni.6057KTap.4381Sykper.6583Excellent Name.9574Fremtid.3528ykon.8214TheAndroid.1406Downfall.4613Mahou.3924Silyth.7382Saranos.9703Sheepscreamer.3509 15 votes

Comments

  • Yes

    To some extend at least.
    I don't mind getting stronger, I actually enjoy that in a game but at the same time I want to be able to grow on a mechanical level as well. I don't just want to do more damage by default. I want to work for it, I want to master difficult encounters that rely on individual skill and not just a group with enough dps and a healer and so on. I prefer content for smaller groups anyway.

    As the old worlds fall behind
    Our spirit reaches wide
    With no fear breathing new life
    Awaken from the dark dark slumber

    Wintersun - Awaken from the dark slumber (Spring) - Part II The Awakening

  • Lunateric.3708Lunateric.3708 Member ✭✭✭
    Yes

    It is necessary, a MMO with no powercreep over the course of 5 years is fictional. Mobs and encounters should scale accordingly of course.

  • They should make things harder by putting more emphasis on positioning and fast movement. That is where the true strength of GW2 combat lies.

  • Fremtid.3528Fremtid.3528 Member ✭✭✭
    I don't care

    Should make what harder? Story? I already find story annoyingly hard that I don't ever want to repeat it whereas I did HoT story a few times whenever I was bored. Like I can understand the push for a challenging META or something, that I would understand. Ofc then you guys would just complain it fails all the time. I want to actually enjoy the time I spend doing story with my friends, not be stressed out because it's a bunch of kitten.

  • Shirlias.8104Shirlias.8104 Member ✭✭✭✭
    No

    @Lunateric.3708 said:
    It is necessary, a MMO with no powercreep over the course of 5 years is fictional. Mobs and encounters should scale accordingly of course.

    They can scale without powercreep.
    They are meant to be a challenge for your level.

    If you deal 100 dps you are not supposed to face a mob with 1 milion hp and have your attack incrased, because it would mean that old content would be unplayable due to faceroll. instead the mobs should be conceived around what is the overall dps. Mechanics and attacks should make the difference.

  • STIHL.2489STIHL.2489 Member ✭✭✭✭

    at this point.. yes. In fact they may as well add in levels 81 - 100, and just become another Wow Clone.

    There are two kinds of Gamers, Salty, and Extra Salty.
    Ego is the Anesthesia that dullens the pain of Stupidity.

  • YoukiNeko.6047YoukiNeko.6047 Member ✭✭✭

    @STIHL.2489 said:
    at this point.. yes. In fact they may as well add in levels 81 - 100, and just become another Wow Clone.

    Soon.

  • Furious.2867Furious.2867 Member ✭✭✭
    No

    I bought both xpacs but PVP wise, I prefer the 10-15K range.

  • Dashiva.6149Dashiva.6149 Member ✭✭✭
    edited December 1, 2017
    No

    Depends on context. There are two types of creeps commonly occuring in games, direct powercreep (this thing is strictly better than the old thing) and complexity creep (this thing opens up new options/does stuff differently).
    I believe that direct powercreep leads to more unhealthy social enviroments and less interesting gameplay (always chasing the next "fix", invalidates older content) as seen in games heavily focused on geargrinds, while complexity creep is more stimulating for players (finding the right tools for the job so to speak).

  • No

    Given the extent to which the game has been seriously "dumbed down" since release. I have to question why power creep is even necessary.

    "Beware of dragons, for you are crunchy and go well with Ketchup."

  • otto.5684otto.5684 Member ✭✭✭✭
    No

    To be fair, I think PoF power creep is minimual. In addition the devs seem to want to reduce the power creep caused by PoF as well.

    Surely horizontal progression, by adding more elites and gear options, is vastly superior to adding more “power.” Not only it does not invalidate older content, it also provide you more options to play that content.

  • Ardid.7203Ardid.7203 Member ✭✭✭✭
    No

    Power Creep goes hand in hand with transforming areas of the game into useless dead organs, creating bad balance and encouraging toxic meta fanaticism.
    When half your profession is in a state of complete uselessness, you have to recognize Power Creep is not giving you anything, but robbing you options.

  • TheGrimm.5624TheGrimm.5624 Member ✭✭✭
    No

    The problem is that power creep introduced for PvE impacts other game modes which is an issue. Defensive stats gain less value as offensive ones move up. The old 'I don't have to take a hit if its dead' versus the 'dead deeps do no damage' argument. Course this a difference on how people might gear up depending on their game mode and there might be valid arguments on various sides and situations.

    I still wonder if one of the main issues is the AI though. We don't use the tank/deeps/healer model but the AI in a lot of spots kinda does. Instead why doesn't the AI follow rules that a player in PvP or WvW would, drop the squishy one first and then move from there to get them in rez mode. Mind you this is not the same as an enrage timer. Especially since enrage timers only increase the call for power creep since you have to drop them faster versus you need to win and survive the encounter. These are not the same thing.

    Course we are seeing more mob evolution as we move from Core to HoT to LS to PoF so, we might be getting there yet. When I see people dropped by new mobs, I admit its kinda nice since they can't just come in an wipe the floor and move on. Course getting back the daily reviver would be nice too. ;)

    Envy the Madman his musing when Death comes to make fools of us all.
    De Mortuis Nil Nisi Bonum.
    TheGrimm PoTBS/GW1/WAR/Rift/GW2/MWO/ESO/WoT/WoW/CU/AoC

  • Offair.2563Offair.2563 Member ✭✭✭
    No

    Not from a wvw pov. Anet keeps buffing damage leaving our hp pool quite the same. One shot ponies.

    Don't argue with idiots, they drag you down to their level and own you with experience.
    Big Babou, Ranger for life.

  • TheGrimm.5624TheGrimm.5624 Member ✭✭✭
    No

    Agree from the PvP/WvW side without changes to defensive stats it gets out of balance.

    Envy the Madman his musing when Death comes to make fools of us all.
    De Mortuis Nil Nisi Bonum.
    TheGrimm PoTBS/GW1/WAR/Rift/GW2/MWO/ESO/WoT/WoW/CU/AoC

  • Burnfall.9573Burnfall.9573 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited December 1, 2017
    No

    (No)

    'The past should be a
    learning experience not an
    everlasting punishment.
    What's done is done!!
    Constantly going over the
    ordeals you previously
    faced will only be a burden
    in you life'

  • Ohoni.6057Ohoni.6057 Member ✭✭✭✭
    I don't care

    I think some degree of power creep is almost certain, because players want to feel like they are improving a bit, and want new options to feel at least as powerful as the old ones. They should keep it relatively low, and make sure that it's not tied into things that are only available to the players who are already so strong that they don't need it, but I don't think it's possible to eliminate power creep entirely.

  • Taygus.4571Taygus.4571 Member ✭✭✭
    edited December 1, 2017
    No

    I think the power creep was really badly thought out. It's ruining pvp/wvw.

    It divides core players and expansion. And as they still haven't fixed the downscaling, it really makes expansion players overpowered in the lower maps.

    I also dislike having to use elite specs.

    I thought anet wanted to avoid power creep?

  • notebene.3190notebene.3190 Member ✭✭✭✭

    I'm a little bit concerned with it in respect to feeling 'forced' into new specializations to do the newer content because one of the older specializations, or a 'base class' combo, has trouble doing the content, but you enjoy whatever class you've built better than the newer specializations.

    That is my only real concern with it. Power creep in general isn't a horrible thing. It serves as a selling point in the early days of an expansion, but I think there is a responsibility to then come back around and let the older specs and base classes 'catch up', and sometimes knock newer specs down, to balance things moving forward.

    It would be nice if it was mechanics alone that made new specs shine and be fun, but power creep helps sell it at the end of the day.

    And my concern is mostly with just general PvE, and being able to play new expansions and LW with older specs and base classes. If there was a way to couple earning (key) power with respect to fractals, PvP (WvW?) and raids and it was 'only' applicable to those areas, I think that wouldn't be a terrible way to introduce some verticality to areas of the game that generally look for that without impacting the rest of the game.

    In the event I don't get a chance, thank you all for the company and help when I needed it from time to time.

  • SkyShroud.2865SkyShroud.2865 Member ✭✭✭✭
    No

    @Khisanth.2948 said:
    No, all it does is invalidate older content. The entire reason for having things like downscaling was to avoid that issue. Newer mobs will just become more powerful to match but older ones will be left in the dust.

    I have to highlight this. This is the main issue with power creeping. Every contents that we once had slightly harder time on have gotten easier, possible skills that we can gain from doing all those contents no longer comparable for the newcomers.

    I always believe that initial contents are there to help players cultivate abilities to do harder contents. But, if power creep comes into play, cultivating those abilities become questionable. The progressions in the game thus is lost.

    Founder & Leader of Equinox Solstice [TIME], a Singapore-Based International PvX Guild
    Henge of Denravi Server
    www.gw2time.com

    --

    Explanations of WvW Structures & Populations Issues

  • Conncept.7638Conncept.7638 Member ✭✭✭
    edited December 2, 2017
    No

    No, one of the design tenets, one of the ideals this game was purported to be designed around was that new content would not nullify existing content, that the endgame would be about gaining variety of all visuals and aesthetics, gameplay and builds, and map and instanced content; instead of providing advantages to be chased or purchased in order to qualify for new content at the cost of nullifying existing content.

    And it is absolutely shameful how much of a lie that design ideal wound up being, so much so that it's become clear they never even had so much as a shadow of the intent to design this game without power creep.

  • mauried.5608mauried.5608 Member ✭✭✭

    Power creep is inevitable in a game with a level cap, unless its replaced with some other kind of creep.
    Players want some kind of advancement mechanism to keep playing and such advancement has got to make them better in someway.
    Theres a limit on how far anyone will go with cosmetic creep.
    Anet have got to generate revenue somehow to keep the game going which means creating reasons for people to want to buy more stuff from the gemstore and just selling cosmetics wont do it.

  • IndigoSundown.5419IndigoSundown.5419 Member ✭✭✭✭
    Yes

    I dislike the effect of power creep on old content, and the necessity to use the latest, most powerful whatever in competitive play.

    However, RPG's sell power fantasies. That's it, plain and simple. Add in that it's in a lot of peoples' nature to want more power, and it'd extremely hard to avoid power creep for sellers of such power fantasies. So, I believe power creep is inevitable in such games. I believe in either riding the horse in the direction it's going or jumping off and finding a new ride. Since I'm still here, I voted, "Yes."

    Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it. -- Santayana

  • mauried.5608mauried.5608 Member ✭✭✭

    The problem with power creep and a fixed maximum level, is that the power creep just becomes an alternative way of level raising without changing the number.
    Monsters have to be made stronger to compensate for the increased player damage, so all that happens is that the game becomes a WOW clone, with the pretence of a fixed level cap.
    New zones have to be made harder to compensate for the stronger players and casuals get left behind .

  • No

    A miniscule amount of power creep happens, but it really should be kept to a minimum for various reasons. One reason that affect me personally as an altoholic is player distribution. We have a variety of maps that are something between painful and impossible to complete without other people - in some cases heaps of them - around. If that does not happen, because too many players are drawn to the newer, power-creep-supporting (because of special mats, better loot etc.) maps that leaves players stranded on older maps, which is not enjoyable at all.

  • Conncept.7638Conncept.7638 Member ✭✭✭
    edited December 3, 2017
    No

    @mauried.5608 said:
    Power creep is inevitable in a game with a level cap, unless its replaced with some other kind of creep.

    What? That is completely illogical, nonsensical even. What about all the single player RPGs with a fixed level cap and no powercreep whatsoever?

    Powercreep is necessary, if anywhere at all, in a game without a level cap, or in a game where the level cap regularly increases. The only reason for a game to have powercreep that has a fixed level cap is because the developers are hamfisting in to the content.

    @IndigoSundown.5419 said:
    However, RPG's sell power fantasies.

    Games sell power fantasies, not just RPGs or even MMOs, not even just games really but lots of media. But power creep is not necessary for a power fantasy, fantasy operates as compared to real life, so unless someone leveled their swordplay or ability to throw fireballs IRL, then the game is still a power fantasy without powercreep.

  • Astralporing.1957Astralporing.1957 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited December 3, 2017

    @Khisanth.2948 said:
    No, all it does is invalidate older content. The entire reason for having things like downscaling was to avoid that issue. Newer mobs will just become more powerful to match but older ones will be left in the dust.

    There's actually some content i'd really love to see "invalidated" (read: "made more accessible") in this way.

    Still not a fan of power creep, though. Not because it "invalidates" content (on the GW2 scale it really doesn't), but because it obsoletes old builds and gearsets. I don't like to be told every now and then that my old build doesn't work anymore and i should farm for a new set of gear again. And/or buy a new expac, of course.

    @otto.5684 said:
    To be fair, I think PoF power creep is minimual. In addition the devs seem to want to reduce the power creep caused by PoF as well.

    That's because they anticipated power creep and nerfed the pre-pof builds. Thus, the power creep made the new elite specs go back up to previous levels (well, not all of them, in some cases they failed). The same, by the way, happened before HoT launch, when they went on a nerf spree with the core traitlines.

    The whole point of a social game is to play with the people you want to play with, not be forced to play with the people you don't.

  • Oldirtbeard.9834Oldirtbeard.9834 Member ✭✭✭✭
    No

    @TwilightSoul.9048 said:
    To some extend at least.
    I don't mind getting stronger, I actually enjoy that in a game but at the same time I want to be able to grow on a mechanical level as well. I don't just want to do more damage by default. I want to work for it, I want to master difficult encounters that rely on individual skill and not just a group with enough dps and a healer and so on. I prefer content for smaller groups anyway.

    As long as it's a class/build that's behind like Power Reaper, Power Warrior, or Herald.

    “The only watchmaker is the blind forces of physics.”
    ― Richard Dawkins, The God Delusion

  • TexZero.7910TexZero.7910 Member ✭✭✭✭
    I don't care

    I don't have a firm stance one way or the other.

    I get why people don't like it (Trivialization of content), but at the same time you're all playing a power fantasy game (it should be expected).

  • No

    This video very nicely sums up why power creep is a bad thing, and some methods to fix it. For me personally, I see power creep as a lazy, low cost way of keeping a game going, and more often than not acts as nothing more than a bandaid rather than an actual solution.

  • No

    @Lunateric.3708 said:
    It is necessary, a MMO with no powercreep over the course of 5 years is fictional. Mobs and encounters should scale accordingly of course.

    EVE online has very little powercreep, so it's possible. Although a sandbox and not a themepark grinder.

  • No

    @TheGrimm.5624 said:
    The problem is that power creep introduced for PvE impacts other game modes which is an issue. Defensive stats gain less value as offensive ones move up. The old 'I don't have to take a hit if its dead' versus the 'dead deeps do no damage' argument. Course this a difference on how people might gear up depending on their game mode and there might be valid arguments on various sides and situations.

    I still wonder if one of the main issues is the AI though. We don't use the tank/deeps/healer model but the AI in a lot of spots kinda does. Instead why doesn't the AI follow rules that a player in PvP or WvW would, drop the squishy one first and then move from there to get them in rez mode. Mind you this is not the same as an enrage timer. Especially since enrage timers only increase the call for power creep since you have to drop them faster versus you need to win and survive the encounter. These are not the same thing.

    Course we are seeing more mob evolution as we move from Core to HoT to LS to PoF so, we might be getting there yet. When I see people dropped by new mobs, I admit its kinda nice since they can't just come in an wipe the floor and move on. Course getting back the daily reviver would be nice too. ;)

    You know it's funny but the AI in gw1 was a lot smarter than the AI in gw2. In gw1 the AI would actively target characters with less max health and those wielding caster weapons (staffs, scepters, etc) instead of higher health targets wielding melee weapons. They would also specifically target healers over other casters, so if you were a monk for example you had to be very careful. Get too close to the mobs and they would instantly turn on you and kill you.

  • tekfan.3179tekfan.3179 Member ✭✭✭
    Yes

    I kinda like a bit of power creep. Since GW2 downlevels us to the specific map, a bit of power creep gives the feeling that our character became more powerful since they started their journey.

    What I don't like is that they close the dps-gaps between the professions. It feels like they ignore class mechanics, differing healthpools and armor ratings.
    Just take a look at the [qT] raid builds and compare the difficulty rating with the dps rating.
    If you take a look at the staff weaver and the power dragonhunter...I played both and the dragonhunter is remarkably easy in comparision to the weaver and the dps-gap is quite small compared to how much more forgiving the dragonhunter is.
    It's nice that they made both professions stronger and that the weaver is challenging to play, but if it's just mostly the same dps on all metabuilds and the only significant difference is the effort you have to put, that feels bland.

    Then there's the necro. The profession finally got a meta build that's so good that people use it for raids...meta for one boss, good for another two and not recommended for all the other bosses.

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