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Raid easy mode on the cheap

I know this is a hot button topic, but why not make a raid easy mode on the cheap:

  • Remove timers
  • Remove boss reset on wipe

Then adjust loot accordingly. This probably would‘t take a lot of resources to program.

It would open that content to a much larger part of the playerbase and let them train the boss mechanics which in turn will help the ‚real‘ raiders by generating a steady supply of new people who will know how bosses work without having to drag them along first.

This wouldn‘t take anything away from the current raids but add more content for the rest of the player population.

Comments

  • sigur.9453sigur.9453 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited December 1, 2017

    @JakeMagnus.4035 said:
    I know this is a hot button topic, but why not make a raid easy mode on the cheap:

    • Remove timers
    • Remove boss reset on wipe

    Then adjust loot accordingly. This probably would‘t take a lot of resources to program.

    It would open that content to a much larger part of the playerbase and let them train the boss mechanics which in turn will help the ‚real‘ raiders by generating a steady supply of new people who will know how bosses work without having to drag them along first.

    This wouldn‘t take anything away from the current raids but add more content for the rest of the player population.

    Accourding to the level of "difficulty" the loot must be set around LS instance level. Which is basicly nothing.
    Ignoring the fact that some mechanics would need to be completly reworked that it would even work (not cheap).
    Following the question, how often would you play that content then?
    Following the question, would it be ok for you if they skip some LS releases in favour of that?
    LS 5, a raid reborn?

    Im not a fan of such methaphers but, if you want to drive a motorcycle you don´t train on your bicycle for it. So the Training part thing is just an Illusion.
    Other then that, as mention by many other before ---> trainings guild, they are there. An atm the best starting method for raiding.

    Look,i know, you want to experience raids, but lorewise, there isn´t too much there exept reading letters and seeing "famous" location, which you all can do in a cleared instance. If you wan´t to fight a "famous" beast (spoiler alert, female humans everywhere) you can also easily ask someone else to open the boss for you and watch/Fight him. Other than that, raids "magic" are "challenging" mechanics, hell im watching my skilbar 80% of the time and concentrate to not to kitten up. Nerving it to the ground will rip that "magic" apart, and you will only be fighting an open world random mob with a fancy skill. Not that epic. Which brings us back to replay value.

    Dead content with no replay value or important lore. All that while preventing DEVs to release new content.
    Thank you no

    Edit:
    Its the same thing asking "hey, could you make lazarus a raidboss, mechanics are already there, just adjust boss hp, add a timer and we are good to go.

  • Jahroots.6791Jahroots.6791 Member ✭✭✭
    edited December 1, 2017

    @JakeMagnus.4035 said:
    I know this is a hot button topic, but why not make a raid easy mode on the cheap:

    I'm with you, but they already done told us before 'Nah, git gud' and 'Raids are for raiders'.

    They want casual, lazy and unskilled players to zerg around in the open world. Instanced PVE is meant to be an exclusive club, of which raids are the VIP section.

  • Vinceman.4572Vinceman.4572 Member ✭✭✭✭

    I'm fine with story mode raids under certain circumstances:

    • Rewards are white, blue, green and rare stuff only per boss per week. Maybe a minimal chance of getting an exotic armor piece (no weapons).
    • No LI (not even a tenth of it)
    • No mag shards
    • No asc items
    • No possibility to unlock items at the asc vendor
    • No access to leggy armor collection
      (Hopefully I haven't forget to mention anything important - fellow raiders are invited to complete the list)

    All the mentioned subitems are not negotiable!

    After being successful in all easy mode raids from W1-4 (W5 excluded for having an easy mode at this point in time because it's new stuff) players can get the titel "Easy Raider". ^^

    For tuning down/implementation I reccommend trainees or student apprentices and once they have finished the work members from one of the living story teams perform quality management.

    R.I.P. Build Templates, 15.10.2019

  • Blaeys.3102Blaeys.3102 Member ✭✭✭
    edited December 1, 2017

    Glad to see this topic again (this has to be the most popular raid related topic by a wide margin).

    There are many ways this could manifest itself:

    • A console inside the instance that gives group members a wide range of buffs - and possibly a damage modifier. Given that this tech already exists in a form in the special forces training area, I have to think it would be possible (no idea how easy it would be)
    • Open the raid to larger raid group sizes without scaling the content in any way. Guilds or pugs could then take in 11-20 players to experience the content (more than 20 would probably be a little bit too crazy).
    • Story motes that work similar to challenge motes, but in the opposite direction (paring away mechanics, toning down mathematical requirements, etc)

    And probably a dozen more. I'm sure there is some creative solution out there that would require little ongoing development oversight and provide this solution elegantly.

    Again, I am glad to see this topic - ONCE AGAIN - resurface. It is important that people keep voicing a desire for this kind of feature. Surely, at this point, Anet can see that this is something that isn't going away as long as raids exist in their current format. And, while they have said there are no plans for it right now, it is still worth bringing up every chance we can.

    I know people (including probably ANet) are tired of hearing me on this topic at this point. My view is well documented (and documented and documented ....). I will now force myself to stay out of this particular thread after this response to save you all the pain :).

    And, to reinforce Vinceman's post, of course any lesser difficulty would have to have significantly less reward. I don't think that is even debatable.

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Crystal Reid.2481 said:
    New forum, so I'll jump in with a new post on this.

    We won't be adding a different difficulty tier at this time. Raids need to continue to remain the most challenging content in the game, and they aren't designed to be accessible by everyone from a skill perspective. Could they be more accessible from a "finding 9 other players to play with" side? Sure. That isn't always an easy problem to solve, and any solution would detract away from the team making more raid content. We'd love to get more content out to you guys faster really.

    Strait from one of the old threads.

  • Ayrilana.1396Ayrilana.1396 Member ✭✭✭✭

    All loot should be removed if timers are removed and bosses don’t regenerate HP. Any challenge is removed as players can just brute force their way through raids by kamikazing the bosses over and over and over.

    Groups primarily fail because of the mechanics and not because of the timer. They perform the mechanics poorly and thus lose.

  • TexZero.7910TexZero.7910 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Or we can just keep the integrity of the mode in check and you guys who want easy content can do literally the rest of the game.

  • Myhr.9108Myhr.9108 Member ✭✭✭

    I don't see how an Easy mode would endanger the integrity of the raids since, you know, it wouldn't effect raids as they are. And numerous low investment solutions have been presented, like no timer/no regen/no reward.

    As for Arena-net official statement, one word : mounts. Let me elaborate : mounts were a dividing topic before PoF was announced. Many, myself included, didn't see what it could bring to a game that has frigging waypoints. The subject was for the longest time considered as kinda a recurring joke, with people fed-up of rehashing the same arguments again and again, and this lasted for years. Then, lo and behold, PoF was announced, and a brand new shiny mechanic with it : mounts were coming to GW2! I'll admit, I was very skeptic and critical of Arena-net for following the loudest crowd and take some ho-so-precious development time to include mounts in the game.

    Fast forward more than one month after the expac, and mounts are loved by the vast majority of the playerbase. And here I can only admit, and hope eveyone that was once against mounts will do the same : we were wrong. Things can change, things can be done differently, and in an interesting way.

    And from this lesson, I've learned that you can always hope for things to change your way, if you present a solid enough case for it. Ultimately, Arena-net wil decide. And they will keep making decision, again and again. And they can change their plans. So yeah, as long as raids exist, I'll keep asking for a story mode. I won't hold my breath for it, and I will certainly never say something like "haaaaargh, waaaa, waaaaa, I'll never buy gems/expac again!". But I'll keep asking for it, because one can hope.

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Myhr.9108 said:
    I don't see how an Easy mode would endanger the integrity of the raids since, you know, it wouldn't effect raids as they are. And numerous low investment solutions have been presented, like no timer/no regen/no reward.

    As for Arena-net official statement, one word : mounts. Let me elaborate : mounts were a dividing topic before PoF was announced. Many, myself included, didn't see what it could bring to a game that has frigging waypoints. The subject was for the longest time considered as kinda a recurring joke, with people fed-up of rehashing the same arguments again and again, and this lasted for years. Then, lo and behold, PoF was announced, and a brand new shiny mechanic with it : mounts were coming to GW2! I'll admit, I was very skeptic and critical of Arena-net for following the loudest crowd and take some ho-so-precious development time to include mounts in the game.

    Fast forward more than one month after the expac, and mounts are loved by the vast majority of the playerbase. And here I can only admit, and hope eveyone that was once against mounts will do the same : we were wrong. Things can change, things can be done differently, and in an interesting way.

    And from this lesson, I've learned that you can always hope for things to change your way, if you present a solid enough case for it. Ultimately, Arena-net wil decide. And they will keep making decision, again and again. And they can change their plans. So yeah, as long as raids exist, I'll keep asking for a story mode. I won't hold my breath for it, and I will certainly never say something like "haaaaargh, waaaa, waaaaa, I'll never buy gems/expac again!". But I'll keep asking for it, because one can hope.

    True, and once you point me to the official quote which denied mounts we would be in a same situation. You are correct though, arenanet might change their position on raids. That will likely happen more via a change of in game player population participating than constant topic on the forums.

    Arenanet has the metrics of how many players play raids. If they are happy with that number, they won't address the issue. If they are unhappy they will. Forum posts are not going to do diddly quat.

  • TexZero.7910TexZero.7910 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Myhr.9108 said:
    I don't see how an Easy mode would endanger the integrity of the raids since, you know, it wouldn't effect raids as they are. And numerous low investment solutions have been presented, like no timer/no regen/no reward.

    Really, you don't see how making challenging content not challenging effects the integrity of the mode ?
    You probably also don't see that someone would have to rebuild all of the encounters, likely the raid team and if not the LS team meaning both content types would suffer delays at best and quality loss at worst.

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @JakeMagnus.4035 said:
    Remove timers
    Remove boss reset on wipe

    There is a valid reason they changed dungeons so you couldn't corpse run them anymore: it makes content look stupid. Now you want to bring that same ugly thing back?

    Then adjust loot accordingly. This probably would‘t take a lot of resources to program.

    If you remove timers and disable regeneration then you need to remove all the rewards from it too. As far as Raids are concerned we got confirmation that no new difficulty mode is coming, although they are trying to figure out a better way of showing the story. To that end, the probably best solution is to make a story mode that is solo friendly. Because group content that is too easy, but needed for story, leads us to Arah Story Mode, another failed concept.

    It would open that content to a much larger part of the playerbase and let them train the boss mechanics which in turn will help the ‚real‘ raiders by generating a steady supply of new people who will know how bosses work without having to drag them along first.

    Like how Fractal 100 generates a "supply of new people" for Fractal 100 CM? It's clear that an easier tier for "training purposes" isn't working for other content, so what makes you believe that it has any chance of working with Raids?

    Your ideas have already been tested in the game and they don't work.

  • Ayrilana.1396Ayrilana.1396 Member ✭✭✭✭

    I never understood the whole training argument. If players wanted train on how to fight a boss, why not just train while fighting the boss like everyone else did? It just seems like a poorly veiled argument to get easier raids.

  • Myhr.9108Myhr.9108 Member ✭✭✭

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    True, and once you point me to the official quote which denied mounts we would be in a same situation. You are correct though, arenanet might change their position on raids. That will likely happen more via a change of in game player population participating than constant topic on the forums.

    Arenanet has the metrics of how many players play raids. If they are happy with that number, they won't address the issue. If they are unhappy they will. Forum posts are not going to do diddly quat.

    Or it will happen if nothing change and raids are only experienced by a tiny minority. I know they have the metrics, I'm confident they know what they're doing, and yes, forum topic can make them change their mind, so why not try? After all, forums are here for that, feedback.

    @TexZero.7910 said:

    Really, you don't see how making challenging content not challenging effects the integrity of the mode ?
    You probably also don't see that someone would have to rebuild all of the encounters, likely the raid team and if not the LS team meaning both content types would suffer delays at best and quality loss at worst.

    Seeing as nobody want the current raids to be modified but are proposing a new mode, yeah, no change. It's not "please nerf raids", it's "please, can you make an easy mode? I respect raiders and don't want for them to have any less fun than they currently have. But yeah, I would like to experience this content in another form." As for rebuilding all the encounters, again, we have some easy and simple changes to suggest. But while you're talking about dev time used for the benefit of just a minority of players cough cough cough

    And there are examples of such divisions in other game modes : pvp and ranked pvp, but also Fractals, you have your T4 fractals, I have my T1/T2 Fractals, everyone's happy.

  • Zania.8461Zania.8461 Member ✭✭✭

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    Like how Fractal 100 generates a "supply of new people" for Fractal 100 CM? It's clear that an easier tier for "training purposes" isn't working for other content, so what makes you believe that it has any chance of working with Raids?

    Completing 100NM does generate interest in doing 100CM. However the number of people who are willing to take a person who hasn't done CM on their run is minuscule. Similarly with raids - number of people willing to train a random PuG who wants to get into raids but has no LIs is very small. So those people end up going to guilds who are willing to do it, or abandoning the idea altogether. In either case you will not see that player in LFG.

    Overall I am against the idea of easy mode raids because I don't see the point of it. If the idea is for people who will never raid to see the story, then sure, give bosses 1hp and award no loot. People can then go through the instances and talk to Glenna, but get nothing other than lore bits from it. If you want something that would actually in some way prepare people for normal mode raids, then practically none of the suggestions given in this thread so far would work - you can see most of the raid boss mechanics in open world or story already where they can be zerged, which doesn't seem to train people very well.

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Zania.8461 said:
    Completing 100NM does generate interest in doing 100CM. However the number of people who are willing to take a person who hasn't done CM on their run is minuscule. Similarly with raids - number of people willing to train a random PuG who wants to get into raids but has no LIs is very small. So those people end up going to guilds who are willing to do it, or abandoning the idea altogether. In either case you will not see that player in LFG.

    Honestly, instead of focusing on Raids, there should've been a discussion on Fractals instead. And it's not only CM, finishing tier 25 (T1 Observatory) won't allow you to join most 100 pugs either (T4 Observatory). This is the riddle in the game that needs solving, right now in order to join runs for content you must have finished it before. That thing is what needs solving, and obviously adding tiers of Raids wouldn't help, fractals already have loads of tiers yet the problem exists there too.

  • TexZero.7910TexZero.7910 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Myhr.9108 said:

    @TexZero.7910 said:

    Really, you don't see how making challenging content not challenging effects the integrity of the mode ?
    You probably also don't see that someone would have to rebuild all of the encounters, likely the raid team and if not the LS team meaning both content types would suffer delays at best and quality loss at worst.

    Seeing as nobody want the current raids to be modified but are proposing a new mode, yeah, no change. It's not "please nerf raids", it's "please, can you make an easy mode? I respect raiders and don't want for them to have any less fun than they currently have. But yeah, I would like to experience this content in another form." As for rebuilding all the encounters, again, we have some easy and simple changes to suggest. But while you're talking about dev time used for the benefit of just a minority of players cough cough cough

    And there are examples of such divisions in other game modes : pvp and ranked pvp, but also Fractals, you have your T4 fractals, I have my T1/T2 Fractals, everyone's happy.

    You don't have to say please nerf raids when you're outright asking for a nerfed version of raids. This means you're ruining the integrity of the mode itself as it is meant to be challenging content. This also means that you are intentionally slowing down production because the raids have to be re-designed in such a way as to be multi-modual and have all of those modes properly tuned for the "easy crowd".

    Now then, that sounds nice and easy on paper until you realize that, you now have effectively tripled the workload required and don't have the staff to do so. You need a Normal mode, and an Easy mode. You then have to do twice the Q&A testing one for each mode and continually have staff around to support both modes because a bug may only occur in one mode but the easy team probably isn't going to be embedded and working with the normal team and knowing all the intricacies therein.

    Finally you get to the crux of the issue of is it worth the cost, frankly Crystal has already said no. I sincerely doubt any of that has changed as they have stated they want to give raiders quality content. They understand that the big bad R word turns people away, but that's not on them as they already have plenty of data showcasing that if people want to Raid they will and thus it's very likely not in the modes interest to cater to those that have no desire to do so other than to get loot. Especially when they've already added to the production cycle by adding recaps to NPC's which involved bringing in the narrative team so that non-raiders could have their cake (lore) and eat it too.