Do raids need easy/normal/hard difficulty mode? [merged] - Page 2 — Guild Wars 2 Forums

Do raids need easy/normal/hard difficulty mode? [merged]

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  • STIHL.2489STIHL.2489 Member ✭✭✭✭

    I have to agree with the Raid advocates at this point. All that is going to be said, has been said as far as this goes. All voices have been made, and heard, and to those wanting scaling or difficulty tiers, the answer is " NO ", directly from Anet.

    As such, you are only left with only a few options at this point:

    • Raid to get what you want
    • Accept you won't do the content / get the items, embrace that and keep playing anyway. (feel free to become jaded and never spend another cent on the game in protest, if that will make you feel better)
    • Move on, and find another game to play.

    There is really no wrong choice, but this topic and the many others like are done.

    There are two kinds of Gamers, Salty, and Extra Salty.
    Ego is the Anesthesia that dullens the pain of Stupidity.

  • Kapax.3801Kapax.3801 Member ✭✭✭
    We need an easy mode, but not a hard mode

    Normal mode / challenge mode (current difficulty)

  • FrizzFreston.5290FrizzFreston.5290 Member ✭✭✭✭
    Raids have problems, but we need a better solution

    @Kapax.3801 said:
    Normal mode / challenge mode (current difficulty)

    This I find very interesting tbh. I personally see that as: Raids already have two difficulty modes.

    This makes the poll partially pointless.

    Which is probably also why I said other, mostly because the game is lacking instanced bigger group content at a lower lvl.

    What I think is mostly important to what is happening here is:
    In GW1 instanced group content was basically everywhere. GW2 is lacking that bigger party instanced group content that brings guilds together (easier). Open world doesn't make it feel like much of a guild or organized activity. Fractals are short and/but repetitive, dungeons are discontinued and don't play a huge role in endgame goals. Raids are a nice length, nice group size, have those endgame goals to shoot for, but their difficulty and style of difficulty is making it a fairly niche type of player.

    So, I think, with asking for an easier raid mode, people really just want instanced group content with the length/groupsize/endgame goals of raids but not that difficulty.

    I dont feel that raids need to make an easier mode to fulfil that, even if they could, but I do see a type of content that is missing there.

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭
    Raids have problems, but we need a better solution

    @FrizzFreston.5290 said:
    I personally see that as: Raids already have two difficulty modes.

    They would have two difficulty modes if the CM gave repeatable rewards. As they are now, it's one mode and the CM are a little extra.

  • Raids are fine the way they are, combining bosses of various difficulties

    No, they don't need to dumb down raids. Why do people feel the need to start a thread about this once a week?

  • CptAurellian.9537CptAurellian.9537 Member ✭✭✭✭
    Raids are fine the way they are, combining bosses of various difficulties

    Seriously, we don't need this kind of thread every week. It's like asking in the PvP forum to give you (and you alone) an I.W.I.N. button.

    Praise delta!

  • FrizzFreston.5290FrizzFreston.5290 Member ✭✭✭✭
    Raids have problems, but we need a better solution

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @FrizzFreston.5290 said:
    I personally see that as: Raids already have two difficulty modes.

    They would have two difficulty modes if the CM gave repeatable rewards. As they are now, it's one mode and the CM are a little extra.

    Thats why I said personally... I cant always account for strange definitions other people might have.

  • Malediktus.9250Malediktus.9250 Member ✭✭✭✭
    Raids are fine the way they are, combining bosses of various difficulties

    I do not think raids need several difficulty tiers. You do not have to be an outstanding player to complety raids. I would rate myself as a mediocre skilled player, yet I managed to earn almost 1000 LI already. If I can succeed at raids everyone else can also with a bit of determination.
    After learning the mechanics of an encounter for a few hours you usually have them on farm mode pretty fast.

    First person to reach 35,000 and 36,000 AP.
    killproof.me/proof/kEyr

  • Raids are fine the way they are, combining bosses of various difficulties

    Raids have always ruined games. Just take a look at wow they are sub 6mil player base last time i checked. Due to wow's tragic raid obsession they have even less players then gw2 does.

    Not only that raids are extremely boring fighting the same thing 1000x times and trying to find a group is a nightmare. Let alone the detestable player base raids have.

    Currently I Refuse to do raids for the fact i cant solo them. Why solo? I simply don't want to put up with mindless children.

    Point of fact: Ascended equipment is the same Legendary equipment but with per-determined stats, however they are far easier to obtain. So the 1 thing raid has that might attract people is useless!

  • Astralporing.1957Astralporing.1957 Member ✭✭✭✭
    We need an easy mode, but not a hard mode

    @GrizzlyTank.3145 said:
    Unfortunately when looking over at WoW, easy mode there "LFR" just result in exhausting players on the raid content. Now top it off with 3 more difficulties and once you actually reach mythic a lot of the joy is simply gone.

    Perhaps, but remember that without them most of those people would just not raid at all. And maybe, just maybe, a lot of them simply do not find the increased challenge to be fun.

    The whole point of a social game is to play with the people you want to play with, not be forced to play with the people you don't.

  • We need both easy and hard modes

    What I think we need to figure out is, is the lack of raiders due to difficulty of the content or the attitude and elitism of the current raiders? For example, do you need to have a team with full ascended gear and the perfect set up in order to clear the current raid content? I haven't done any of the raids in this game so far but just looking at the mechanics of the boss fights, none of them are as complex as your average WoW boss, and yet the WoW community isn't nearly as elitist as it Is here. Is the skill ceiling really as high as people make it out to be, or is this just an illusion put on by the raiders so that they don't have to play with "noobs"? If the experienced raiders are expecting entry level raiders to have a full set of ascended gear and the perfect build before even stepping into a raid, is it any wonder hardly anyone new gets In?

  • Jahroots.6791Jahroots.6791 Member ✭✭✭
    We need both easy and hard modes

    It's definitely the difficulty that keeps people from taking part. You can't really view challenge and toxic behaviour separately because the attitude and elitism we associate with raiding are just natural, human responses to the 'risk' that the difficulty creates.

    Players are almost always relaxed and friendly when content is more manageable.

  • Tyson.5160Tyson.5160 Member ✭✭✭✭
    We need both easy and hard modes

    I would say keep the raid the same, however they already have a multi tier system with fractals. Wouldn’t having an easy mode and hard mode allow for better training and progression within the raid and allow for more content in the Raiding section of the game?

  • We need both easy and hard modes

    @Jahroots.6791 said:
    It's definitely the difficulty that keeps people from taking part. You can't really view challenge and toxic behaviour separately because the attitude and elitism we associate with raiding are just natural, human responses to the 'risk' that the difficulty creates.

    Players are almost always relaxed and friendly when content is more manageable.

    And yet other games I have done raids in have been (In my opinion) more complex than the gw2 raids and yet don't have the same elitist attitudes with them. Now I know that complex doesn't necessarily mean hard, but if the gw2 bosses are less complex, what makes them so hard? I'm reading through the boss abilities and they all seem very simple to me.

  • CrustyBot.3564CrustyBot.3564 Member ✭✭
    edited December 3, 2017
    Raids have problems, but we need a better solution

    In theory I am for multiple difficulties. I find it unfortunate that more people don't raid and I feel like the in-game tools to aid people in learning raids is subpar. However if we want to get more than one raid every 2 years, it would extract concessions from other types of PvE content as the raid team is not large enough to handle 3 difficulties (let alone CM on top of that). Would people be willing to wait 6 months inbetween each living world release and even more time for new fractal releases?

    I am not too sure.

    Guild Wars 2 is intentionally setup with segregation in mind. The endgame is a variety of different mini game modes which allows people to focus on their preferred type of mode, or allow people to mix and match at will. I don't think it's fair to raider focused players to have their favourite content schedule slowed down because Arenanet wants to outreach to people who lack the initiative to make use of the significant community efforts to teach newer players raids. Even speedrun guilds like Snow Crows will tell you where you can go for quality raid training if you are new and want to learn.

    On the other hand, it would be even more unfair if the release schedules for everything else were to be slowed if the raid team had to pull additional dev resources from other teams in order to keep up.

    What I would like to see is more open world bosses have similar mechanics to raids. We have the Unbound Guardian in Bloodstone Fen and while I wouldn't like 1-1 replicas of raid bosses in open world, having some mechanics be similar can give better context in training and make raid mechanics more relatable.

    I also wouldn't mind significant updates to the training golem (I know we just got one) to allow people to practice some mechanics from raid bosses. So stuff like blue circles at VG, poison drop at Slothasor, egg aoe at Gorseval, timed bomb at Sabetha, etc. Stuff where people can learn to practice elements of a raid without being spoiled on the raid before they try it.

  • Torolan.5816Torolan.5816 Member ✭✭✭

    No for easy mode raids from my side.

    I did never want raids in the first place, but now they are here and I have to accept that. Contrary to other game modes you could consider challenging, raids are an all in business. Either you score a total victory or you get nothing. And yes, you can compare wvw and pvp in difficulty to raids because you can also buy/trade your way through raids and you need awareness to be good in it.

    To avoid the uproar this causes Anet could simply let exclusive, noncosmetic stuff out of raids or generally only one game mode and put it into all game modes from the get go. But that seems to not be easy because Anet always sees the need to supplement raids so they let this particular theme dangle along for years.

  • zealex.9410zealex.9410 Member ✭✭✭✭
    Raids are fine the way they are, combining bosses of various difficulties

    Kinda curious how 2 greens would make vg harder. I mean u deal with them like u deal with 1, by ignoring them...

  • CptAurellian.9537CptAurellian.9537 Member ✭✭✭✭
    Raids are fine the way they are, combining bosses of various difficulties

    @Wandering Mist.2973 said:
    What I think we need to figure out is, is the lack of raiders due to difficulty of the content or the attitude and elitism of the current raiders? For example, do you need to have a team with full ascended gear and the perfect set up in order to clear the current raid content? I haven't done any of the raids in this game so far but just looking at the mechanics of the boss fights, none of them are as complex as your average WoW boss, and yet the WoW community isn't nearly as elitist as it Is here. Is the skill ceiling really as high as people make it out to be, or is this just an illusion put on by the raiders so that they don't have to play with "noobs"? If the experienced raiders are expecting entry level raiders to have a full set of ascended gear and the perfect build before even stepping into a raid, is it any wonder hardly anyone new gets In?

    Raids in GW2 are not difficult and you definitely do not need full ascended to be able to do them. The "elitism" thing, which really is more pronounced in GW2 than in other MMOs, has two aspects. First, parts of the community have ridiculous expectations and requirements, but that's an old phenomenon not related to raids. Anyone still remember the "10k+ AP" requirements for vanilla dungeons?

    Second, and that's possibly more important, it feels like large parts of the GW2 community are atrociously bad. The kind of pugs you regularly encounter in T4 fractals (in theory, the second-hardest PvE content) just makes you cringe if you run Arc and know halfway how to play a class. That isn't that difficult, by the way, since most normal players should get acceptable results (i.e. 70%+ of the benchmark) after practicing an hour or so at the golem unless they're hell-bent on playing a piano class like condi engi. Is spending an hour or so of preparation too much to ask for the most difficult content in the game? Sure, it won't translate directly into perfect gameplay in the real encounter, but too many people lack even these basics.

    Praise delta!

  • We need both easy and hard modes

    @CptAurellian.9537 said:

    @Wandering Mist.2973 said:
    What I think we need to figure out is, is the lack of raiders due to difficulty of the content or the attitude and elitism of the current raiders? For example, do you need to have a team with full ascended gear and the perfect set up in order to clear the current raid content? I haven't done any of the raids in this game so far but just looking at the mechanics of the boss fights, none of them are as complex as your average WoW boss, and yet the WoW community isn't nearly as elitist as it Is here. Is the skill ceiling really as high as people make it out to be, or is this just an illusion put on by the raiders so that they don't have to play with "noobs"? If the experienced raiders are expecting entry level raiders to have a full set of ascended gear and the perfect build before even stepping into a raid, is it any wonder hardly anyone new gets In?

    Raids in GW2 are not difficult and you definitely do not need full ascended to be able to do them. The "elitism" thing, which really is more pronounced in GW2 than in other MMOs, has two aspects. First, parts of the community have ridiculous expectations and requirements, but that's an old phenomenon not related to raids. Anyone still remember the "10k+ AP" requirements for vanilla dungeons?

    Second, and that's possibly more important, it feels like large parts of the GW2 community are atrociously bad. The kind of pugs you regularly encounter in T4 fractals (in theory, the second-hardest PvE content) just makes you cringe if you run Arc and know halfway how to play a class. That isn't that difficult, by the way, since most normal players should get acceptable results (i.e. 70%+ of the benchmark) after practicing an hour or so at the golem unless they're hell-bent on playing a piano class like condi engi. Is spending an hour or so of preparation too much to ask for the most difficult content in the game? Sure, it won't translate directly into perfect gameplay in the real encounter, but too many people lack even these basics.

    Maybe that's a problem with the leveling process not preparing players for end-game content than the end-game content itself. I hit level 80 on 2 characters and went into my first fractals without even knowing anything about defiance bars and combo abilities, which are 2 of the core mechanics required for completing T4 fractals. I only learned those aspects of gameplay purely from researching them myself outside of the game. I can definitely see how a lot of people would get into T4 fractals not knowing that sort of thing. It might be worth trying to add these sorts of mechanics into the core leveling experience through the personal story to better prepare players for the end-game content. We should also look at the number of people who level characters through PvP and then transition into fractals at level 80. In my opinion this shouldn't be possible because the mechanics and skill requirements for the 2 modes are vastly different. I'd much prefer the system they had in GW1 where you could make a max level PvP only character that was completely separate from any aspect of PvE.

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭
    Raids have problems, but we need a better solution

    @CptAurellian.9537 said:
    Second, and that's possibly more important, it feels like large parts of the GW2 community are atrociously bad.

    The big question then becomes, how to "train" the players to be better at the game

  • STIHL.2489STIHL.2489 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Wandering Mist.2973 said:

    @Jahroots.6791 said:
    It's definitely the difficulty that keeps people from taking part. You can't really view challenge and toxic behaviour separately because the attitude and elitism we associate with raiding are just natural, human responses to the 'risk' that the difficulty creates.

    Players are almost always relaxed and friendly when content is more manageable.

    And yet other games I have done raids in have been (In my opinion) more complex than the gw2 raids and yet don't have the same elitist attitudes with them. Now I know that complex doesn't necessarily mean hard, but if the gw2 bosses are less complex, what makes them so hard? I'm reading through the boss abilities and they all seem very simple to me.

    This I gotta hear, what game have you played where the raiding community was not slathered with elitism?

    There are two kinds of Gamers, Salty, and Extra Salty.
    Ego is the Anesthesia that dullens the pain of Stupidity.

  • CptAurellian.9537CptAurellian.9537 Member ✭✭✭✭
    Raids are fine the way they are, combining bosses of various difficulties

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @CptAurellian.9537 said:
    Second, and that's possibly more important, it feels like large parts of the GW2 community are atrociously bad.

    The big question then becomes, how to "train" the players to be better at the game

    Certainly not by raid easymodes, since you learn exactly nothing from doing them.

    Yes, I know you wouldn't ask for that nonsense.

    Praise delta!

  • We need both easy and hard modes

    @STIHL.2489 said:

    @Wandering Mist.2973 said:

    @Jahroots.6791 said:
    It's definitely the difficulty that keeps people from taking part. You can't really view challenge and toxic behaviour separately because the attitude and elitism we associate with raiding are just natural, human responses to the 'risk' that the difficulty creates.

    Players are almost always relaxed and friendly when content is more manageable.

    And yet other games I have done raids in have been (In my opinion) more complex than the gw2 raids and yet don't have the same elitist attitudes with them. Now I know that complex doesn't necessarily mean hard, but if the gw2 bosses are less complex, what makes them so hard? I'm reading through the boss abilities and they all seem very simple to me.

    This I gotta hear, what game have you played where the raiding community was not slathered with elitism?

    WoW and FF14 are the 2 games where I've raided the most, and neither of them were as elitist as GW2 (in my experience anyway).

  • CptAurellian.9537CptAurellian.9537 Member ✭✭✭✭
    Raids are fine the way they are, combining bosses of various difficulties

    Same for Wildstar, by the way. Won't comment on WoW, because I don't have any recent experience, but it wasn't as bad as GW2 today when I quit 8 years ago.

    Praise delta!

  • Astralporing.1957Astralporing.1957 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited December 3, 2017
    We need an easy mode, but not a hard mode

    @Wandering Mist.2973 said:

    @Jahroots.6791 said:
    It's definitely the difficulty that keeps people from taking part. You can't really view challenge and toxic behaviour separately because the attitude and elitism we associate with raiding are just natural, human responses to the 'risk' that the difficulty creates.

    Players are almost always relaxed and friendly when content is more manageable.

    And yet other games I have done raids in have been (In my opinion) more complex than the gw2 raids and yet don't have the same elitist attitudes with them. Now I know that complex doesn't necessarily mean hard, but if the gw2 bosses are less complex, what makes them so hard? I'm reading through the boss abilities and they all seem very simple to me.

    In GW2 there's no pre-filtering present in game that prevents you from even participating. No attunements, no required "must be this high to participate" gearchecks etc. This usually mean that most of people trying raids in other games already have the "correct" attitude and mindset - and those whose skills are not up to the task are usually also discouraged before this point. Additionally, mechanics of many bosses put different roles on players - some of them are harder, but others can be really easy. On top of that, GW2 is a highly casual game, where the ratio of casuals to hardcores is likely higher than in other game communities

    All that means that among people trying to raid there may be many that in other games wouldn't even have made it to the entrance. In fact, there are a lot of people like that even among the "pro elitists". Seriously, i have seen quite a number of people in elite armor, with stacks of LI and tons of KPs that didn't know many of the boss mechanics, because they've always been doing the dps only and left everything harder to others.

    So, even if the complexity of raids is indeed much lower than in some other games, the average skill, commitment and overall experience of average raider is probably lower.

    It doesn't mean that other games are less elitist. It just means you have less chance of seeing it. When you do see it, though... oh boy, it can be much, much nastier than in GW2. I have seen toxic behaviour in other games that was tolerated (or even considered to be "justified") that would get someone at least suspended here.

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @CptAurellian.9537 said:
    Second, and that's possibly more important, it feels like large parts of the GW2 community are atrociously bad.

    The big question then becomes, how to "train" the players to be better at the game

    That's a big question indeed. I haven't seen this done well like ever. The only thing all those "attempts to train people" accomplish is to filter less skilled players out.

    Besides, that's a wrong question to ask. The real question should always be "how to keep players in the game longer". Attempting to trainin them to be better at the game rarely accomplishes that - quite often it does the opposite (by discouraging them).

    Becoming "better at the game" has no inherent worth. It's just a thing some people like to do.

    The whole point of a social game is to play with the people you want to play with, not be forced to play with the people you don't.

  • MarkoNS.3261MarkoNS.3261 Member ✭✭✭
    Raids are fine the way they are, combining bosses of various difficulties

    raids are supposed to be challenging content and while to exp raiders they are more of a chore, if you cant bother to learn mechanics and play as a team well then you dont deserve the rewards simple as that.

    Kittenizer Tm in Full ACTION.

  • MarkoNS.3261MarkoNS.3261 Member ✭✭✭
    Raids are fine the way they are, combining bosses of various difficulties

    and quite frankly when raids were introduced the anet employes were saying only 10 or so % of the population will be able to do it so it seems its working just fine.

    Kittenizer Tm in Full ACTION.

  • apharma.3741apharma.3741 Member ✭✭✭✭
    Raids are fine the way they are, combining bosses of various difficulties

    @Sykper.6583 said:
    There is nothing that's been said here that hasn't already been brought up and discussed dozens of times.

    Let's just go with a quote from the Raid Dev on the current status:

    @Crystal Reid.2481 said:
    New forum, so I'll jump in with a new post on this.

    We won't be adding a different difficulty tier at this time. Raids need to continue to remain the most challenging content in the game, and they aren't designed to be accessible by everyone from a skill perspective. Could they be more accessible from a "finding 9 other players to play with" side? Sure. That isn't always an easy problem to solve, and any solution would detract away from the team making more raid content. We'd love to get more content out to you guys faster really.

    Their priorities are keeping raids the most challenging content in game, and wanting to deliver the content to us faster than it took this one.

    That's literally all.

    Someone should send this to the fractal team then, there’s fractals that are much harder than some raid content :tongue:

    I stand with Mo.

  • We need both easy and hard modes

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @Wandering Mist.2973 said:

    @Jahroots.6791 said:
    It's definitely the difficulty that keeps people from taking part. You can't really view challenge and toxic behaviour separately because the attitude and elitism we associate with raiding are just natural, human responses to the 'risk' that the difficulty creates.

    Players are almost always relaxed and friendly when content is more manageable.

    And yet other games I have done raids in have been (In my opinion) more complex than the gw2 raids and yet don't have the same elitist attitudes with them. Now I know that complex doesn't necessarily mean hard, but if the gw2 bosses are less complex, what makes them so hard? I'm reading through the boss abilities and they all seem very simple to me.

    In GW2 there's no pre-filtering present in game that prevents you from even participating. No attunements, no required "must be this high to participate" gearchecks etc. This usually mean that most of people trying raids in other games already have the "correct" attitude and mindset - and those whose skills are not up to the task are usually also discouraged before this point. Additionally, mechanics of many bosses put different roles on players - some of them are harder, but others can be really easy. On top of that, GW2 is a highly casual game, where the ratio of casuals to hardcores is likely higher than in other game communities

    All that means that among people trying to raid there may be many that in other games wouldn't even have made it to the entrance. In fact, there are a lot of people like that even among the "pro elitists". Seriously, i have seen quite a number of people in elite armor, with stacks of LI and tons of KPs that didn't know many of the boss mechanics, because they've always been doing the dps only and left everything harder to others.

    So, even if the complexity of raids is indeed much lower than in some other games, the average skill, commitment and overall experience of average raider is probably lower.

    It doesn't mean that other games are less elitist. It just means you have less chance of seeing it. When you do see it, though... oh boy, it can be much, much nastier than in GW2. I have seen toxic behaviour in other games that was tolerated (or even considered to be "justified") that would get someone at least suspended here.

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @CptAurellian.9537 said:
    Second, and that's possibly more important, it feels like large parts of the GW2 community are atrociously bad.

    The big question then becomes, how to "train" the players to be better at the game

    That's a big question indeed. I haven't seen this done well like ever. The only thing all those "attempts to train people" accomplish is to filter less skilled players out.

    Besides, that's a wrong question to ask. The real question should always be "how to keep players in the game longer". Attempting to trainin them to be better at the game rarely accomplishes that - quite often it does the opposite (by discouraging them).

    Becoming "better at the game" has no inherent worth. It's just a thing some people like to do.

    A lot of the time you just need to make people aware of the mechanics. Like I said before I hit level 80 on 2 characters and never even knew that combo skills and breaking bars existed, because during the leveling process I had never had to use those mechanics. FF14 had the right idea when it came to training new players, with their "Hall of the Novice" section. These were training scenarios designed to teach you specific aspects of the game depending on the role you had chosen. So for example if you were a dps player you learned how to avoid aoe attacks and how to quickly switch targets in the middle of a fight. If you were a tank you learned how to maneuver a target into certain positions, and engage new enemies as they approached. Things like this may seem very simple but to a new player they can completely open your eyes to various aspects of group combat.

  • Astralporing.1957Astralporing.1957 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited December 3, 2017
    We need an easy mode, but not a hard mode

    @maddoctor.2738 said:
    Attempting to train players in Raids might indeed discourage some players. Attempting to train players in the actual mechanics of the game won't.

    HoT was such an attempt. They upped the overall open world difficulty in those areas partly because they wanted players to "up their game". It didn't work all that well. Some players did indeed learn and became more skilled (at least a bit) - but they were the ones that would have learned eventually anyway. Others however just decided that they dislike the new direction the game went, and this negatively impacted their enjoyment. Especially their enjoyment of the new content. I know a number of people that simply stopped playing the game at that point, for that exact reason.

    As i have said before - for many players "getting better" is not something that holds any value to them. What's worse, for quite a number of them, the actual process of getting better is not enjoyable. If you'll try to train them, not only often you won't succeed, but even if you do there will be no gain here. They won't like the game more - quite the opposite, they may end up liking it less.

    So, why exactly should the game train people to be better at it?

    The whole point of a social game is to play with the people you want to play with, not be forced to play with the people you don't.

  • Alga.6498Alga.6498 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited December 4, 2017
    We need both easy and hard modes

    I voted yes, because why lock raids into unique and special bosses and lore? We non-raiders miss so much lore and other cool stuff inside of the raids who are not these ''elite pro skilled only gud gears or you're out!!11111!!!''.

    Why not make all players happy? The elites get their hardcore and normal players can also get to play raids on an easy level to enjoy story and the instances. What's the loss of this? It's a win-win imo and a happier playerbase.
    Make easy mode, please ANet! :confused:

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  • Kuulpb.5412Kuulpb.5412 Member ✭✭✭
    We need an easy mode, but not a hard mode

    GW2 has a story that is directly tied to raids ( see the bloodstone fen story regarding the squad leader bennet) So having raids not accessible to the average player ( as In, not completable ) means that the story drops and restarts missing a chunk that our character "knows" about, but we do not.

  • Miellyn.6847Miellyn.6847 Member ✭✭✭
    Raids are fine the way they are, combining bosses of various difficulties

    @Kuulpb.5412 said:
    GW2 has a story that is directly tied to raids ( see the bloodstone fen story regarding the squad leader bennet) So having raids not accessible to the average player ( as In, not completable ) means that the story drops and restarts missing a chunk that our character "knows" about, but we do not.

    That's wrong. The NPCs talk about it if your account has raid kills, otherwise it is just ignored. Bennett doesn't know you if you never rescued him. The story of Forsaken Thicket is not needed to understand LS3. It is just a prequel and you get more informations from LS3 than raids. Infact you get more information about the raid via LS3 than from the raid for LS3.

  • ProtoGunner.4953ProtoGunner.4953 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited December 4, 2017
    We need both easy and hard modes

    I did some part of the raids and it's not that hard, but I simply don't want to invest more time. I don't have much time left with a 100% job. And there are so many other good games I want to play. I also have a big social life and attend a lot of live concerts etc. Also there are some other hobbies. So now I simply am not willing to sink in 3 hours of raiding without any progress once or twice a week. Time is precious and I can play and have a lot of fun playing Super Mario Odyssey for example - 3 hours full of fun and joy. Or sinking 3 hours of failing and waiting in a raid. That's my point. I did that in WoW several years ago and I was doing it and I liked it, but priorities change and life changes and that's why we need a mode like raid finder with lower rewards but easy to accomplish so not only a fraction of the players can see the story and the content the company created. I don't see why dedicated raiders have a problem with this. Meanwhile all major MMOs offer different difficulties - some have even 3 or more difficulty levels.

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭
    Raids have problems, but we need a better solution

    @Astralporing.1957 said:
    As i have said before - for many players "getting better" is not something that holds any value to them. What's worse, for quite a number of them, the actual process of getting better is not enjoyable. If you'll try to train them, not only often you won't succeed, but even if you do there will be no gain here. They won't like the game more - quite the opposite, they may end up liking it less.

    So, why exactly should the game train people to be better at it?

    The problem with Heart of Thorns is it came after the really easy core game. There was no in-between content for some of the players. On the other hand, those who did play Season 2 when it was released shouldn't have any issues with Heart of Thorns, if anything a lot of the mobs were significantly nerfed with the release of Heart of Thorns. But I guess even the hardest mobs become easy if you hide behind huge blobs of players. But there is also the story of Season 2, how did they get over that and then had issues with Heart of Thorns. More likely the content drought before the expansion caused the players to become terrible at playing the game, no instanced story parts, just follow the tag in huge blobs and auto attack mobs to death for months makes players soft, and dumb.

    Ever since their first release they upped the challenge level, adding harder mobs, adding harder story instances and so on. They've been increasing the challenge level of the game for 5 years, so I wonder what are these players who don't want to "get good" still doing here. And you can't say that a Molten Brawler, a Twisted Horror, a Mordrem Thrasher (of Season 2, not the nerfed HoT version) are easier than the new Heart of Thorns mobs. Many probably forgot how they were and then called Heart of Thorns hard. Temporary content had this effect on difficulty and challenge, people forgot about it, it's another of the sad drawbacks of temporary content.

    The game has a wonderful combat system, yet many don't want to use it. If all some players want is a multi-loot farm to get their rewards without even playing the game, then what can I say, they should leave the game as soon as possible. Although Arenanet still creates brain dead farms (some unintentional), they are also creating some exciting encounters too.

    Easiest way to train people: take away brain dead farms so they have to play the game to get anything.

  • We need both easy and hard modes

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Astralporing.1957 said:
    As i have said before - for many players "getting better" is not something that holds any value to them. What's worse, for quite a number of them, the actual process of getting better is not enjoyable. If you'll try to train them, not only often you won't succeed, but even if you do there will be no gain here. They won't like the game more - quite the opposite, they may end up liking it less.

    So, why exactly should the game train people to be better at it?

    The problem with Heart of Thorns is it came after the really easy core game. There was no in-between content for some of the players. On the other hand, those who did play Season 2 when it was released shouldn't have any issues with Heart of Thorns, if anything a lot of the mobs were significantly nerfed with the release of Heart of Thorns. But I guess even the hardest mobs become easy if you hide behind huge blobs of players. But there is also the story of Season 2, how did they get over that and then had issues with Heart of Thorns. More likely the content drought before the expansion caused the players to become terrible at playing the game, no instanced story parts, just follow the tag in huge blobs and auto attack mobs to death for months makes players soft, and dumb.

    Ever since their first release they upped the challenge level, adding harder mobs, adding harder story instances and so on. They've been increasing the challenge level of the game for 5 years, so I wonder what are these players who don't want to "get good" still doing here. And you can't say that a Molten Brawler, a Twisted Horror, a Mordrem Thrasher (of Season 2, not the nerfed HoT version) are easier than the new Heart of Thorns mobs. Many probably forgot how they were and then called Heart of Thorns hard. Temporary content had this effect on difficulty and challenge, people forgot about it, it's another of the sad drawbacks of temporary content.

    The game has a wonderful combat system, yet many don't want to use it. If all some players want is a multi-loot farm to get their rewards without even playing the game, then what can I say, they should leave the game as soon as possible. Although Arenanet still creates brain dead farms (some unintentional), they are also creating some exciting encounters too.

    Easiest way to train people: take away brain dead farms so they have to play the game to get anything.

    It seems that the focus of the game is changing from how it was before HoT, from a very casual focused game to a more hardcore focused. Unfortunately at the same time Anet are trying to please both the casuals and the hardcore players. Blizzard had a similar problem although in the reverse, where WoW started as a pretty hardcore experience (similar to games like EQ2, etc) and then switched its focus to more casual gameplay. The problem is that in trying to please both parties, you inevitably end up pleasing nobody. And unfortunately despite your wishes for harder content, when it comes down to player populations, there will always be more casuals than hardcore players, meaning if you want to keep a game running you have to cater to the casuals first. If you try and cater only to hardcore players, you will most likely fail, which is exactly what happened to WildStar. Wildstar was designed to be an upgraded version of vanilla WoW when it came to the difficulty of its content, and focused all its effort on catering to hardcore raiders. Their problem? There weren't enough hardcore players to make it work and the game flopped.

    So whether you like it or not, an mmorpg's success relies on the casuals, as they form the majority of the playerbase.

  • sigur.9453sigur.9453 Member ✭✭✭
    Raids are fine the way they are, combining bosses of various difficulties

    @Wandering Mist.2973 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Astralporing.1957 said:
    As i have said before - for many players "getting better" is not something that holds any value to them. What's worse, for quite a number of them, the actual process of getting better is not enjoyable. If you'll try to train them, not only often you won't succeed, but even if you do there will be no gain here. They won't like the game more - quite the opposite, they may end up liking it less.

    So, why exactly should the game train people to be better at it?

    The problem with Heart of Thorns is it came after the really easy core game. There was no in-between content for some of the players. On the other hand, those who did play Season 2 when it was released shouldn't have any issues with Heart of Thorns, if anything a lot of the mobs were significantly nerfed with the release of Heart of Thorns. But I guess even the hardest mobs become easy if you hide behind huge blobs of players. But there is also the story of Season 2, how did they get over that and then had issues with Heart of Thorns. More likely the content drought before the expansion caused the players to become terrible at playing the game, no instanced story parts, just follow the tag in huge blobs and auto attack mobs to death for months makes players soft, and dumb.

    Ever since their first release they upped the challenge level, adding harder mobs, adding harder story instances and so on. They've been increasing the challenge level of the game for 5 years, so I wonder what are these players who don't want to "get good" still doing here. And you can't say that a Molten Brawler, a Twisted Horror, a Mordrem Thrasher (of Season 2, not the nerfed HoT version) are easier than the new Heart of Thorns mobs. Many probably forgot how they were and then called Heart of Thorns hard. Temporary content had this effect on difficulty and challenge, people forgot about it, it's another of the sad drawbacks of temporary content.

    The game has a wonderful combat system, yet many don't want to use it. If all some players want is a multi-loot farm to get their rewards without even playing the game, then what can I say, they should leave the game as soon as possible. Although Arenanet still creates brain dead farms (some unintentional), they are also creating some exciting encounters too.

    Easiest way to train people: take away brain dead farms so they have to play the game to get anything.

    It seems that the focus of the game is changing from how it was before HoT, from a very casual focused game to a more hardcore focused. Unfortunately at the same time Anet are trying to please both the casuals and the hardcore players. Blizzard had a similar problem although in the reverse, where WoW started as a pretty hardcore experience (similar to games like EQ2, etc) and then switched its focus to more casual gameplay. The problem is that in trying to please both parties, you inevitably end up pleasing nobody. And unfortunately despite your wishes for harder content, when it comes down to player populations, there will always be more casuals than hardcore players, meaning if you want to keep a game running you have to cater to the casuals first. If you try and cater only to hardcore players, you will most likely fail, which is exactly what happened to WildStar. Wildstar was designed to be an upgraded version of vanilla WoW when it came to the difficulty of its content, and focused all its effort on catering to hardcore raiders. Their problem? There weren't enough hardcore players to make it work and the game flopped.

    So whether you like it or not, an mmorpg's success relies on the casuals, as they form the majority of the playerbase.

    How is this game hardcore focused? 1 raid in 10 month, 2 fractals with OPTIONAL CM? In the meantime 8+ openworld maps , story instances,....and so on.
    are you kidding?

  • We need both easy and hard modes

    @sigur.9453 said:

    @Wandering Mist.2973 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Astralporing.1957 said:
    As i have said before - for many players "getting better" is not something that holds any value to them. What's worse, for quite a number of them, the actual process of getting better is not enjoyable. If you'll try to train them, not only often you won't succeed, but even if you do there will be no gain here. They won't like the game more - quite the opposite, they may end up liking it less.

    So, why exactly should the game train people to be better at it?

    The problem with Heart of Thorns is it came after the really easy core game. There was no in-between content for some of the players. On the other hand, those who did play Season 2 when it was released shouldn't have any issues with Heart of Thorns, if anything a lot of the mobs were significantly nerfed with the release of Heart of Thorns. But I guess even the hardest mobs become easy if you hide behind huge blobs of players. But there is also the story of Season 2, how did they get over that and then had issues with Heart of Thorns. More likely the content drought before the expansion caused the players to become terrible at playing the game, no instanced story parts, just follow the tag in huge blobs and auto attack mobs to death for months makes players soft, and dumb.

    Ever since their first release they upped the challenge level, adding harder mobs, adding harder story instances and so on. They've been increasing the challenge level of the game for 5 years, so I wonder what are these players who don't want to "get good" still doing here. And you can't say that a Molten Brawler, a Twisted Horror, a Mordrem Thrasher (of Season 2, not the nerfed HoT version) are easier than the new Heart of Thorns mobs. Many probably forgot how they were and then called Heart of Thorns hard. Temporary content had this effect on difficulty and challenge, people forgot about it, it's another of the sad drawbacks of temporary content.

    The game has a wonderful combat system, yet many don't want to use it. If all some players want is a multi-loot farm to get their rewards without even playing the game, then what can I say, they should leave the game as soon as possible. Although Arenanet still creates brain dead farms (some unintentional), they are also creating some exciting encounters too.

    Easiest way to train people: take away brain dead farms so they have to play the game to get anything.

    It seems that the focus of the game is changing from how it was before HoT, from a very casual focused game to a more hardcore focused. Unfortunately at the same time Anet are trying to please both the casuals and the hardcore players. Blizzard had a similar problem although in the reverse, where WoW started as a pretty hardcore experience (similar to games like EQ2, etc) and then switched its focus to more casual gameplay. The problem is that in trying to please both parties, you inevitably end up pleasing nobody. And unfortunately despite your wishes for harder content, when it comes down to player populations, there will always be more casuals than hardcore players, meaning if you want to keep a game running you have to cater to the casuals first. If you try and cater only to hardcore players, you will most likely fail, which is exactly what happened to WildStar. Wildstar was designed to be an upgraded version of vanilla WoW when it came to the difficulty of its content, and focused all its effort on catering to hardcore raiders. Their problem? There weren't enough hardcore players to make it work and the game flopped.

    So whether you like it or not, an mmorpg's success relies on the casuals, as they form the majority of the playerbase.

    How is this game hardcore focused? 1 raid in 10 month, 2 fractals with OPTIONAL CM? In the meantime 8+ openworld maps , story instances,....and so on.
    are you kidding?

    That's just the start. From what you guys are saying the core game was a lot easier, and with each expansion Anet are slowly making the content more challenging. There won't be an instant change of course, but it will gradually happen over time.

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