Do raids need easy/normal/hard difficulty mode? [merged] - Page 2 — Guild Wars 2 Forums

Do raids need easy/normal/hard difficulty mode? [merged]

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  • Astralporing.1957Astralporing.1957 Member ✭✭✭✭
    We need an easy mode, but not a hard mode

    @GrizzlyTank.3145 said:
    Unfortunately when looking over at WoW, easy mode there "LFR" just result in exhausting players on the raid content. Now top it off with 3 more difficulties and once you actually reach mythic a lot of the joy is simply gone.

    Perhaps, but remember that without them most of those people would just not raid at all. And maybe, just maybe, a lot of them simply do not find the increased challenge to be fun.

    The whole point of a social game is to play with the people you want to play with, not be forced to play with the people you don't.

  • We need both easy and hard modes

    What I think we need to figure out is, is the lack of raiders due to difficulty of the content or the attitude and elitism of the current raiders? For example, do you need to have a team with full ascended gear and the perfect set up in order to clear the current raid content? I haven't done any of the raids in this game so far but just looking at the mechanics of the boss fights, none of them are as complex as your average WoW boss, and yet the WoW community isn't nearly as elitist as it Is here. Is the skill ceiling really as high as people make it out to be, or is this just an illusion put on by the raiders so that they don't have to play with "noobs"? If the experienced raiders are expecting entry level raiders to have a full set of ascended gear and the perfect build before even stepping into a raid, is it any wonder hardly anyone new gets In?

  • Tyson.5160Tyson.5160 Member ✭✭✭✭
    We need both easy and hard modes

    I would say keep the raid the same, however they already have a multi tier system with fractals. Wouldn’t having an easy mode and hard mode allow for better training and progression within the raid and allow for more content in the Raiding section of the game?

  • We need both easy and hard modes

    @Jahroots.6791 said:
    It's definitely the difficulty that keeps people from taking part. You can't really view challenge and toxic behaviour separately because the attitude and elitism we associate with raiding are just natural, human responses to the 'risk' that the difficulty creates.

    Players are almost always relaxed and friendly when content is more manageable.

    And yet other games I have done raids in have been (In my opinion) more complex than the gw2 raids and yet don't have the same elitist attitudes with them. Now I know that complex doesn't necessarily mean hard, but if the gw2 bosses are less complex, what makes them so hard? I'm reading through the boss abilities and they all seem very simple to me.

  • CrustyBot.3564CrustyBot.3564 Member ✭✭
    edited December 3, 2017
    Raids have problems, but we need a better solution

    In theory I am for multiple difficulties. I find it unfortunate that more people don't raid and I feel like the in-game tools to aid people in learning raids is subpar. However if we want to get more than one raid every 2 years, it would extract concessions from other types of PvE content as the raid team is not large enough to handle 3 difficulties (let alone CM on top of that). Would people be willing to wait 6 months inbetween each living world release and even more time for new fractal releases?

    I am not too sure.

    Guild Wars 2 is intentionally setup with segregation in mind. The endgame is a variety of different mini game modes which allows people to focus on their preferred type of mode, or allow people to mix and match at will. I don't think it's fair to raider focused players to have their favourite content schedule slowed down because Arenanet wants to outreach to people who lack the initiative to make use of the significant community efforts to teach newer players raids. Even speedrun guilds like Snow Crows will tell you where you can go for quality raid training if you are new and want to learn.

    On the other hand, it would be even more unfair if the release schedules for everything else were to be slowed if the raid team had to pull additional dev resources from other teams in order to keep up.

    What I would like to see is more open world bosses have similar mechanics to raids. We have the Unbound Guardian in Bloodstone Fen and while I wouldn't like 1-1 replicas of raid bosses in open world, having some mechanics be similar can give better context in training and make raid mechanics more relatable.

    I also wouldn't mind significant updates to the training golem (I know we just got one) to allow people to practice some mechanics from raid bosses. So stuff like blue circles at VG, poison drop at Slothasor, egg aoe at Gorseval, timed bomb at Sabetha, etc. Stuff where people can learn to practice elements of a raid without being spoiled on the raid before they try it.

  • Torolan.5816Torolan.5816 Member ✭✭✭

    No for easy mode raids from my side.

    I did never want raids in the first place, but now they are here and I have to accept that. Contrary to other game modes you could consider challenging, raids are an all in business. Either you score a total victory or you get nothing. And yes, you can compare wvw and pvp in difficulty to raids because you can also buy/trade your way through raids and you need awareness to be good in it.

    To avoid the uproar this causes Anet could simply let exclusive, noncosmetic stuff out of raids or generally only one game mode and put it into all game modes from the get go. But that seems to not be easy because Anet always sees the need to supplement raids so they let this particular theme dangle along for years.

  • zealex.9410zealex.9410 Member ✭✭✭✭
    Raids are fine the way they are, combining bosses of various difficulties

    Kinda curious how 2 greens would make vg harder. I mean u deal with them like u deal with 1, by ignoring them...

  • CptAurellian.9537CptAurellian.9537 Member ✭✭✭✭
    Raids are fine the way they are, combining bosses of various difficulties

    @Wandering Mist.2973 said:
    What I think we need to figure out is, is the lack of raiders due to difficulty of the content or the attitude and elitism of the current raiders? For example, do you need to have a team with full ascended gear and the perfect set up in order to clear the current raid content? I haven't done any of the raids in this game so far but just looking at the mechanics of the boss fights, none of them are as complex as your average WoW boss, and yet the WoW community isn't nearly as elitist as it Is here. Is the skill ceiling really as high as people make it out to be, or is this just an illusion put on by the raiders so that they don't have to play with "noobs"? If the experienced raiders are expecting entry level raiders to have a full set of ascended gear and the perfect build before even stepping into a raid, is it any wonder hardly anyone new gets In?

    Raids in GW2 are not difficult and you definitely do not need full ascended to be able to do them. The "elitism" thing, which really is more pronounced in GW2 than in other MMOs, has two aspects. First, parts of the community have ridiculous expectations and requirements, but that's an old phenomenon not related to raids. Anyone still remember the "10k+ AP" requirements for vanilla dungeons?

    Second, and that's possibly more important, it feels like large parts of the GW2 community are atrociously bad. The kind of pugs you regularly encounter in T4 fractals (in theory, the second-hardest PvE content) just makes you cringe if you run Arc and know halfway how to play a class. That isn't that difficult, by the way, since most normal players should get acceptable results (i.e. 70%+ of the benchmark) after practicing an hour or so at the golem unless they're hell-bent on playing a piano class like condi engi. Is spending an hour or so of preparation too much to ask for the most difficult content in the game? Sure, it won't translate directly into perfect gameplay in the real encounter, but too many people lack even these basics.

    Praise delta!

  • We need both easy and hard modes

    @CptAurellian.9537 said:

    @Wandering Mist.2973 said:
    What I think we need to figure out is, is the lack of raiders due to difficulty of the content or the attitude and elitism of the current raiders? For example, do you need to have a team with full ascended gear and the perfect set up in order to clear the current raid content? I haven't done any of the raids in this game so far but just looking at the mechanics of the boss fights, none of them are as complex as your average WoW boss, and yet the WoW community isn't nearly as elitist as it Is here. Is the skill ceiling really as high as people make it out to be, or is this just an illusion put on by the raiders so that they don't have to play with "noobs"? If the experienced raiders are expecting entry level raiders to have a full set of ascended gear and the perfect build before even stepping into a raid, is it any wonder hardly anyone new gets In?

    Raids in GW2 are not difficult and you definitely do not need full ascended to be able to do them. The "elitism" thing, which really is more pronounced in GW2 than in other MMOs, has two aspects. First, parts of the community have ridiculous expectations and requirements, but that's an old phenomenon not related to raids. Anyone still remember the "10k+ AP" requirements for vanilla dungeons?

    Second, and that's possibly more important, it feels like large parts of the GW2 community are atrociously bad. The kind of pugs you regularly encounter in T4 fractals (in theory, the second-hardest PvE content) just makes you cringe if you run Arc and know halfway how to play a class. That isn't that difficult, by the way, since most normal players should get acceptable results (i.e. 70%+ of the benchmark) after practicing an hour or so at the golem unless they're hell-bent on playing a piano class like condi engi. Is spending an hour or so of preparation too much to ask for the most difficult content in the game? Sure, it won't translate directly into perfect gameplay in the real encounter, but too many people lack even these basics.

    Maybe that's a problem with the leveling process not preparing players for end-game content than the end-game content itself. I hit level 80 on 2 characters and went into my first fractals without even knowing anything about defiance bars and combo abilities, which are 2 of the core mechanics required for completing T4 fractals. I only learned those aspects of gameplay purely from researching them myself outside of the game. I can definitely see how a lot of people would get into T4 fractals not knowing that sort of thing. It might be worth trying to add these sorts of mechanics into the core leveling experience through the personal story to better prepare players for the end-game content. We should also look at the number of people who level characters through PvP and then transition into fractals at level 80. In my opinion this shouldn't be possible because the mechanics and skill requirements for the 2 modes are vastly different. I'd much prefer the system they had in GW1 where you could make a max level PvP only character that was completely separate from any aspect of PvE.

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭
    Raids have problems, but we need a better solution

    @CptAurellian.9537 said:
    Second, and that's possibly more important, it feels like large parts of the GW2 community are atrociously bad.

    The big question then becomes, how to "train" the players to be better at the game

  • STIHL.2489STIHL.2489 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Wandering Mist.2973 said:

    @Jahroots.6791 said:
    It's definitely the difficulty that keeps people from taking part. You can't really view challenge and toxic behaviour separately because the attitude and elitism we associate with raiding are just natural, human responses to the 'risk' that the difficulty creates.

    Players are almost always relaxed and friendly when content is more manageable.

    And yet other games I have done raids in have been (In my opinion) more complex than the gw2 raids and yet don't have the same elitist attitudes with them. Now I know that complex doesn't necessarily mean hard, but if the gw2 bosses are less complex, what makes them so hard? I'm reading through the boss abilities and they all seem very simple to me.

    This I gotta hear, what game have you played where the raiding community was not slathered with elitism?

    There are two kinds of Gamers, Salty, and Extra Salty.
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  • CptAurellian.9537CptAurellian.9537 Member ✭✭✭✭
    Raids are fine the way they are, combining bosses of various difficulties

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @CptAurellian.9537 said:
    Second, and that's possibly more important, it feels like large parts of the GW2 community are atrociously bad.

    The big question then becomes, how to "train" the players to be better at the game

    Certainly not by raid easymodes, since you learn exactly nothing from doing them.

    Yes, I know you wouldn't ask for that nonsense.

    Praise delta!

  • We need both easy and hard modes

    @STIHL.2489 said:

    @Wandering Mist.2973 said:

    @Jahroots.6791 said:
    It's definitely the difficulty that keeps people from taking part. You can't really view challenge and toxic behaviour separately because the attitude and elitism we associate with raiding are just natural, human responses to the 'risk' that the difficulty creates.

    Players are almost always relaxed and friendly when content is more manageable.

    And yet other games I have done raids in have been (In my opinion) more complex than the gw2 raids and yet don't have the same elitist attitudes with them. Now I know that complex doesn't necessarily mean hard, but if the gw2 bosses are less complex, what makes them so hard? I'm reading through the boss abilities and they all seem very simple to me.

    This I gotta hear, what game have you played where the raiding community was not slathered with elitism?

    WoW and FF14 are the 2 games where I've raided the most, and neither of them were as elitist as GW2 (in my experience anyway).

  • CptAurellian.9537CptAurellian.9537 Member ✭✭✭✭
    Raids are fine the way they are, combining bosses of various difficulties

    Same for Wildstar, by the way. Won't comment on WoW, because I don't have any recent experience, but it wasn't as bad as GW2 today when I quit 8 years ago.

    Praise delta!

  • Astralporing.1957Astralporing.1957 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited December 3, 2017
    We need an easy mode, but not a hard mode

    @Wandering Mist.2973 said:

    @Jahroots.6791 said:
    It's definitely the difficulty that keeps people from taking part. You can't really view challenge and toxic behaviour separately because the attitude and elitism we associate with raiding are just natural, human responses to the 'risk' that the difficulty creates.

    Players are almost always relaxed and friendly when content is more manageable.

    And yet other games I have done raids in have been (In my opinion) more complex than the gw2 raids and yet don't have the same elitist attitudes with them. Now I know that complex doesn't necessarily mean hard, but if the gw2 bosses are less complex, what makes them so hard? I'm reading through the boss abilities and they all seem very simple to me.

    In GW2 there's no pre-filtering present in game that prevents you from even participating. No attunements, no required "must be this high to participate" gearchecks etc. This usually mean that most of people trying raids in other games already have the "correct" attitude and mindset - and those whose skills are not up to the task are usually also discouraged before this point. Additionally, mechanics of many bosses put different roles on players - some of them are harder, but others can be really easy. On top of that, GW2 is a highly casual game, where the ratio of casuals to hardcores is likely higher than in other game communities

    All that means that among people trying to raid there may be many that in other games wouldn't even have made it to the entrance. In fact, there are a lot of people like that even among the "pro elitists". Seriously, i have seen quite a number of people in elite armor, with stacks of LI and tons of KPs that didn't know many of the boss mechanics, because they've always been doing the dps only and left everything harder to others.

    So, even if the complexity of raids is indeed much lower than in some other games, the average skill, commitment and overall experience of average raider is probably lower.

    It doesn't mean that other games are less elitist. It just means you have less chance of seeing it. When you do see it, though... oh boy, it can be much, much nastier than in GW2. I have seen toxic behaviour in other games that was tolerated (or even considered to be "justified") that would get someone at least suspended here.

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @CptAurellian.9537 said:
    Second, and that's possibly more important, it feels like large parts of the GW2 community are atrociously bad.

    The big question then becomes, how to "train" the players to be better at the game

    That's a big question indeed. I haven't seen this done well like ever. The only thing all those "attempts to train people" accomplish is to filter less skilled players out.

    Besides, that's a wrong question to ask. The real question should always be "how to keep players in the game longer". Attempting to trainin them to be better at the game rarely accomplishes that - quite often it does the opposite (by discouraging them).

    Becoming "better at the game" has no inherent worth. It's just a thing some people like to do.

    The whole point of a social game is to play with the people you want to play with, not be forced to play with the people you don't.

  • MarkoNS.3261MarkoNS.3261 Member ✭✭✭
    Raids are fine the way they are, combining bosses of various difficulties

    raids are supposed to be challenging content and while to exp raiders they are more of a chore, if you cant bother to learn mechanics and play as a team well then you dont deserve the rewards simple as that.

    Kittenizer Tm in Full ACTION.

  • MarkoNS.3261MarkoNS.3261 Member ✭✭✭
    Raids are fine the way they are, combining bosses of various difficulties

    and quite frankly when raids were introduced the anet employes were saying only 10 or so % of the population will be able to do it so it seems its working just fine.

    Kittenizer Tm in Full ACTION.

  • apharma.3741apharma.3741 Member ✭✭✭✭
    Raids are fine the way they are, combining bosses of various difficulties

    @Sykper.6583 said:
    There is nothing that's been said here that hasn't already been brought up and discussed dozens of times.

    Let's just go with a quote from the Raid Dev on the current status:

    @Crystal Reid.2481 said:
    New forum, so I'll jump in with a new post on this.

    We won't be adding a different difficulty tier at this time. Raids need to continue to remain the most challenging content in the game, and they aren't designed to be accessible by everyone from a skill perspective. Could they be more accessible from a "finding 9 other players to play with" side? Sure. That isn't always an easy problem to solve, and any solution would detract away from the team making more raid content. We'd love to get more content out to you guys faster really.

    Their priorities are keeping raids the most challenging content in game, and wanting to deliver the content to us faster than it took this one.

    That's literally all.

    Someone should send this to the fractal team then, there’s fractals that are much harder than some raid content :tongue:

  • We need both easy and hard modes

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @Wandering Mist.2973 said:

    @Jahroots.6791 said:
    It's definitely the difficulty that keeps people from taking part. You can't really view challenge and toxic behaviour separately because the attitude and elitism we associate with raiding are just natural, human responses to the 'risk' that the difficulty creates.

    Players are almost always relaxed and friendly when content is more manageable.

    And yet other games I have done raids in have been (In my opinion) more complex than the gw2 raids and yet don't have the same elitist attitudes with them. Now I know that complex doesn't necessarily mean hard, but if the gw2 bosses are less complex, what makes them so hard? I'm reading through the boss abilities and they all seem very simple to me.

    In GW2 there's no pre-filtering present in game that prevents you from even participating. No attunements, no required "must be this high to participate" gearchecks etc. This usually mean that most of people trying raids in other games already have the "correct" attitude and mindset - and those whose skills are not up to the task are usually also discouraged before this point. Additionally, mechanics of many bosses put different roles on players - some of them are harder, but others can be really easy. On top of that, GW2 is a highly casual game, where the ratio of casuals to hardcores is likely higher than in other game communities

    All that means that among people trying to raid there may be many that in other games wouldn't even have made it to the entrance. In fact, there are a lot of people like that even among the "pro elitists". Seriously, i have seen quite a number of people in elite armor, with stacks of LI and tons of KPs that didn't know many of the boss mechanics, because they've always been doing the dps only and left everything harder to others.

    So, even if the complexity of raids is indeed much lower than in some other games, the average skill, commitment and overall experience of average raider is probably lower.

    It doesn't mean that other games are less elitist. It just means you have less chance of seeing it. When you do see it, though... oh boy, it can be much, much nastier than in GW2. I have seen toxic behaviour in other games that was tolerated (or even considered to be "justified") that would get someone at least suspended here.

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @CptAurellian.9537 said:
    Second, and that's possibly more important, it feels like large parts of the GW2 community are atrociously bad.

    The big question then becomes, how to "train" the players to be better at the game

    That's a big question indeed. I haven't seen this done well like ever. The only thing all those "attempts to train people" accomplish is to filter less skilled players out.

    Besides, that's a wrong question to ask. The real question should always be "how to keep players in the game longer". Attempting to trainin them to be better at the game rarely accomplishes that - quite often it does the opposite (by discouraging them).

    Becoming "better at the game" has no inherent worth. It's just a thing some people like to do.

    A lot of the time you just need to make people aware of the mechanics. Like I said before I hit level 80 on 2 characters and never even knew that combo skills and breaking bars existed, because during the leveling process I had never had to use those mechanics. FF14 had the right idea when it came to training new players, with their "Hall of the Novice" section. These were training scenarios designed to teach you specific aspects of the game depending on the role you had chosen. So for example if you were a dps player you learned how to avoid aoe attacks and how to quickly switch targets in the middle of a fight. If you were a tank you learned how to maneuver a target into certain positions, and engage new enemies as they approached. Things like this may seem very simple but to a new player they can completely open your eyes to various aspects of group combat.

  • Astralporing.1957Astralporing.1957 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited December 3, 2017
    We need an easy mode, but not a hard mode

    @maddoctor.2738 said:
    Attempting to train players in Raids might indeed discourage some players. Attempting to train players in the actual mechanics of the game won't.

    HoT was such an attempt. They upped the overall open world difficulty in those areas partly because they wanted players to "up their game". It didn't work all that well. Some players did indeed learn and became more skilled (at least a bit) - but they were the ones that would have learned eventually anyway. Others however just decided that they dislike the new direction the game went, and this negatively impacted their enjoyment. Especially their enjoyment of the new content. I know a number of people that simply stopped playing the game at that point, for that exact reason.

    As i have said before - for many players "getting better" is not something that holds any value to them. What's worse, for quite a number of them, the actual process of getting better is not enjoyable. If you'll try to train them, not only often you won't succeed, but even if you do there will be no gain here. They won't like the game more - quite the opposite, they may end up liking it less.

    So, why exactly should the game train people to be better at it?

    The whole point of a social game is to play with the people you want to play with, not be forced to play with the people you don't.

  • Alga.6498Alga.6498 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited December 4, 2017
    We need both easy and hard modes

    I voted yes, because why lock raids into unique and special bosses and lore? We non-raiders miss so much lore and other cool stuff inside of the raids who are not these ''elite pro skilled only gud gears or you're out!!11111!!!''.

    Why not make all players happy? The elites get their hardcore and normal players can also get to play raids on an easy level to enjoy story and the instances. What's the loss of this? It's a win-win imo and a happier playerbase.
    Make easy mode, please ANet! :confused:

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  • Kuulpb.5412Kuulpb.5412 Member ✭✭✭
    We need an easy mode, but not a hard mode

    GW2 has a story that is directly tied to raids ( see the bloodstone fen story regarding the squad leader bennet) So having raids not accessible to the average player ( as In, not completable ) means that the story drops and restarts missing a chunk that our character "knows" about, but we do not.

  • Miellyn.6847Miellyn.6847 Member ✭✭✭
    Raids are fine the way they are, combining bosses of various difficulties

    @Kuulpb.5412 said:
    GW2 has a story that is directly tied to raids ( see the bloodstone fen story regarding the squad leader bennet) So having raids not accessible to the average player ( as In, not completable ) means that the story drops and restarts missing a chunk that our character "knows" about, but we do not.

    That's wrong. The NPCs talk about it if your account has raid kills, otherwise it is just ignored. Bennett doesn't know you if you never rescued him. The story of Forsaken Thicket is not needed to understand LS3. It is just a prequel and you get more informations from LS3 than raids. Infact you get more information about the raid via LS3 than from the raid for LS3.

  • ProtoGunner.4953ProtoGunner.4953 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited December 4, 2017
    We need both easy and hard modes

    I did some part of the raids and it's not that hard, but I simply don't want to invest more time. I don't have much time left with a 100% job. And there are so many other good games I want to play. I also have a big social life and attend a lot of live concerts etc. Also there are some other hobbies. So now I simply am not willing to sink in 3 hours of raiding without any progress once or twice a week. Time is precious and I can play and have a lot of fun playing Super Mario Odyssey for example - 3 hours full of fun and joy. Or sinking 3 hours of failing and waiting in a raid. That's my point. I did that in WoW several years ago and I was doing it and I liked it, but priorities change and life changes and that's why we need a mode like raid finder with lower rewards but easy to accomplish so not only a fraction of the players can see the story and the content the company created. I don't see why dedicated raiders have a problem with this. Meanwhile all major MMOs offer different difficulties - some have even 3 or more difficulty levels.

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭
    Raids have problems, but we need a better solution

    @Astralporing.1957 said:
    As i have said before - for many players "getting better" is not something that holds any value to them. What's worse, for quite a number of them, the actual process of getting better is not enjoyable. If you'll try to train them, not only often you won't succeed, but even if you do there will be no gain here. They won't like the game more - quite the opposite, they may end up liking it less.

    So, why exactly should the game train people to be better at it?

    The problem with Heart of Thorns is it came after the really easy core game. There was no in-between content for some of the players. On the other hand, those who did play Season 2 when it was released shouldn't have any issues with Heart of Thorns, if anything a lot of the mobs were significantly nerfed with the release of Heart of Thorns. But I guess even the hardest mobs become easy if you hide behind huge blobs of players. But there is also the story of Season 2, how did they get over that and then had issues with Heart of Thorns. More likely the content drought before the expansion caused the players to become terrible at playing the game, no instanced story parts, just follow the tag in huge blobs and auto attack mobs to death for months makes players soft, and dumb.

    Ever since their first release they upped the challenge level, adding harder mobs, adding harder story instances and so on. They've been increasing the challenge level of the game for 5 years, so I wonder what are these players who don't want to "get good" still doing here. And you can't say that a Molten Brawler, a Twisted Horror, a Mordrem Thrasher (of Season 2, not the nerfed HoT version) are easier than the new Heart of Thorns mobs. Many probably forgot how they were and then called Heart of Thorns hard. Temporary content had this effect on difficulty and challenge, people forgot about it, it's another of the sad drawbacks of temporary content.

    The game has a wonderful combat system, yet many don't want to use it. If all some players want is a multi-loot farm to get their rewards without even playing the game, then what can I say, they should leave the game as soon as possible. Although Arenanet still creates brain dead farms (some unintentional), they are also creating some exciting encounters too.

    Easiest way to train people: take away brain dead farms so they have to play the game to get anything.

  • We need both easy and hard modes

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Astralporing.1957 said:
    As i have said before - for many players "getting better" is not something that holds any value to them. What's worse, for quite a number of them, the actual process of getting better is not enjoyable. If you'll try to train them, not only often you won't succeed, but even if you do there will be no gain here. They won't like the game more - quite the opposite, they may end up liking it less.

    So, why exactly should the game train people to be better at it?

    The problem with Heart of Thorns is it came after the really easy core game. There was no in-between content for some of the players. On the other hand, those who did play Season 2 when it was released shouldn't have any issues with Heart of Thorns, if anything a lot of the mobs were significantly nerfed with the release of Heart of Thorns. But I guess even the hardest mobs become easy if you hide behind huge blobs of players. But there is also the story of Season 2, how did they get over that and then had issues with Heart of Thorns. More likely the content drought before the expansion caused the players to become terrible at playing the game, no instanced story parts, just follow the tag in huge blobs and auto attack mobs to death for months makes players soft, and dumb.

    Ever since their first release they upped the challenge level, adding harder mobs, adding harder story instances and so on. They've been increasing the challenge level of the game for 5 years, so I wonder what are these players who don't want to "get good" still doing here. And you can't say that a Molten Brawler, a Twisted Horror, a Mordrem Thrasher (of Season 2, not the nerfed HoT version) are easier than the new Heart of Thorns mobs. Many probably forgot how they were and then called Heart of Thorns hard. Temporary content had this effect on difficulty and challenge, people forgot about it, it's another of the sad drawbacks of temporary content.

    The game has a wonderful combat system, yet many don't want to use it. If all some players want is a multi-loot farm to get their rewards without even playing the game, then what can I say, they should leave the game as soon as possible. Although Arenanet still creates brain dead farms (some unintentional), they are also creating some exciting encounters too.

    Easiest way to train people: take away brain dead farms so they have to play the game to get anything.

    It seems that the focus of the game is changing from how it was before HoT, from a very casual focused game to a more hardcore focused. Unfortunately at the same time Anet are trying to please both the casuals and the hardcore players. Blizzard had a similar problem although in the reverse, where WoW started as a pretty hardcore experience (similar to games like EQ2, etc) and then switched its focus to more casual gameplay. The problem is that in trying to please both parties, you inevitably end up pleasing nobody. And unfortunately despite your wishes for harder content, when it comes down to player populations, there will always be more casuals than hardcore players, meaning if you want to keep a game running you have to cater to the casuals first. If you try and cater only to hardcore players, you will most likely fail, which is exactly what happened to WildStar. Wildstar was designed to be an upgraded version of vanilla WoW when it came to the difficulty of its content, and focused all its effort on catering to hardcore raiders. Their problem? There weren't enough hardcore players to make it work and the game flopped.

    So whether you like it or not, an mmorpg's success relies on the casuals, as they form the majority of the playerbase.

  • sigur.9453sigur.9453 Member ✭✭✭
    Raids are fine the way they are, combining bosses of various difficulties

    @Wandering Mist.2973 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Astralporing.1957 said:
    As i have said before - for many players "getting better" is not something that holds any value to them. What's worse, for quite a number of them, the actual process of getting better is not enjoyable. If you'll try to train them, not only often you won't succeed, but even if you do there will be no gain here. They won't like the game more - quite the opposite, they may end up liking it less.

    So, why exactly should the game train people to be better at it?

    The problem with Heart of Thorns is it came after the really easy core game. There was no in-between content for some of the players. On the other hand, those who did play Season 2 when it was released shouldn't have any issues with Heart of Thorns, if anything a lot of the mobs were significantly nerfed with the release of Heart of Thorns. But I guess even the hardest mobs become easy if you hide behind huge blobs of players. But there is also the story of Season 2, how did they get over that and then had issues with Heart of Thorns. More likely the content drought before the expansion caused the players to become terrible at playing the game, no instanced story parts, just follow the tag in huge blobs and auto attack mobs to death for months makes players soft, and dumb.

    Ever since their first release they upped the challenge level, adding harder mobs, adding harder story instances and so on. They've been increasing the challenge level of the game for 5 years, so I wonder what are these players who don't want to "get good" still doing here. And you can't say that a Molten Brawler, a Twisted Horror, a Mordrem Thrasher (of Season 2, not the nerfed HoT version) are easier than the new Heart of Thorns mobs. Many probably forgot how they were and then called Heart of Thorns hard. Temporary content had this effect on difficulty and challenge, people forgot about it, it's another of the sad drawbacks of temporary content.

    The game has a wonderful combat system, yet many don't want to use it. If all some players want is a multi-loot farm to get their rewards without even playing the game, then what can I say, they should leave the game as soon as possible. Although Arenanet still creates brain dead farms (some unintentional), they are also creating some exciting encounters too.

    Easiest way to train people: take away brain dead farms so they have to play the game to get anything.

    It seems that the focus of the game is changing from how it was before HoT, from a very casual focused game to a more hardcore focused. Unfortunately at the same time Anet are trying to please both the casuals and the hardcore players. Blizzard had a similar problem although in the reverse, where WoW started as a pretty hardcore experience (similar to games like EQ2, etc) and then switched its focus to more casual gameplay. The problem is that in trying to please both parties, you inevitably end up pleasing nobody. And unfortunately despite your wishes for harder content, when it comes down to player populations, there will always be more casuals than hardcore players, meaning if you want to keep a game running you have to cater to the casuals first. If you try and cater only to hardcore players, you will most likely fail, which is exactly what happened to WildStar. Wildstar was designed to be an upgraded version of vanilla WoW when it came to the difficulty of its content, and focused all its effort on catering to hardcore raiders. Their problem? There weren't enough hardcore players to make it work and the game flopped.

    So whether you like it or not, an mmorpg's success relies on the casuals, as they form the majority of the playerbase.

    How is this game hardcore focused? 1 raid in 10 month, 2 fractals with OPTIONAL CM? In the meantime 8+ openworld maps , story instances,....and so on.
    are you kidding?

  • We need both easy and hard modes

    @sigur.9453 said:

    @Wandering Mist.2973 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Astralporing.1957 said:
    As i have said before - for many players "getting better" is not something that holds any value to them. What's worse, for quite a number of them, the actual process of getting better is not enjoyable. If you'll try to train them, not only often you won't succeed, but even if you do there will be no gain here. They won't like the game more - quite the opposite, they may end up liking it less.

    So, why exactly should the game train people to be better at it?

    The problem with Heart of Thorns is it came after the really easy core game. There was no in-between content for some of the players. On the other hand, those who did play Season 2 when it was released shouldn't have any issues with Heart of Thorns, if anything a lot of the mobs were significantly nerfed with the release of Heart of Thorns. But I guess even the hardest mobs become easy if you hide behind huge blobs of players. But there is also the story of Season 2, how did they get over that and then had issues with Heart of Thorns. More likely the content drought before the expansion caused the players to become terrible at playing the game, no instanced story parts, just follow the tag in huge blobs and auto attack mobs to death for months makes players soft, and dumb.

    Ever since their first release they upped the challenge level, adding harder mobs, adding harder story instances and so on. They've been increasing the challenge level of the game for 5 years, so I wonder what are these players who don't want to "get good" still doing here. And you can't say that a Molten Brawler, a Twisted Horror, a Mordrem Thrasher (of Season 2, not the nerfed HoT version) are easier than the new Heart of Thorns mobs. Many probably forgot how they were and then called Heart of Thorns hard. Temporary content had this effect on difficulty and challenge, people forgot about it, it's another of the sad drawbacks of temporary content.

    The game has a wonderful combat system, yet many don't want to use it. If all some players want is a multi-loot farm to get their rewards without even playing the game, then what can I say, they should leave the game as soon as possible. Although Arenanet still creates brain dead farms (some unintentional), they are also creating some exciting encounters too.

    Easiest way to train people: take away brain dead farms so they have to play the game to get anything.

    It seems that the focus of the game is changing from how it was before HoT, from a very casual focused game to a more hardcore focused. Unfortunately at the same time Anet are trying to please both the casuals and the hardcore players. Blizzard had a similar problem although in the reverse, where WoW started as a pretty hardcore experience (similar to games like EQ2, etc) and then switched its focus to more casual gameplay. The problem is that in trying to please both parties, you inevitably end up pleasing nobody. And unfortunately despite your wishes for harder content, when it comes down to player populations, there will always be more casuals than hardcore players, meaning if you want to keep a game running you have to cater to the casuals first. If you try and cater only to hardcore players, you will most likely fail, which is exactly what happened to WildStar. Wildstar was designed to be an upgraded version of vanilla WoW when it came to the difficulty of its content, and focused all its effort on catering to hardcore raiders. Their problem? There weren't enough hardcore players to make it work and the game flopped.

    So whether you like it or not, an mmorpg's success relies on the casuals, as they form the majority of the playerbase.

    How is this game hardcore focused? 1 raid in 10 month, 2 fractals with OPTIONAL CM? In the meantime 8+ openworld maps , story instances,....and so on.
    are you kidding?

    That's just the start. From what you guys are saying the core game was a lot easier, and with each expansion Anet are slowly making the content more challenging. There won't be an instant change of course, but it will gradually happen over time.

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭
    Raids have problems, but we need a better solution

    @Wandering Mist.2973 said:
    It seems that the focus of the game is changing from how it was before HoT, from a very casual focused game to a more hardcore focused.

    I hope you can read what you quoted, mostly the second paragraph. The game wasn't "casual focused", there were quite a few releases that added challenging content, story parts that had increased difficulty, mobs of a higher difficulty level than both expansions and so on. What happened is that people forgot about all that, because it was temporary content, plus the huge content drought before the release of the expansion caused players to only spend their months in brain dead farms. The game was never "casual focused" in terms of difficulty and challenge, the game was casual focused in a dozen other things, easy to reach level cap, no gear treadmill, no level cap increase with expansions, easy to get higher stat gear, no subscription fee, no competition in the open world (be it for exp, quest objectives, resource nodes or loot), no requirement to form a party to play most of the content and others. That's what made the game "casual friendly" and all of it still applies. The game had since release harder and more challenging fights. "Casual" can mean more than just difficulty.

    @Wandering Mist.2973 said:
    And unfortunately despite your wishes for harder content, when it comes down to player populations, there will always be more casuals than hardcore players, meaning if you want to keep a game running you have to cater to the casuals first.

    Got some kind of confirmation about this? I'm sure you have some hard facts proving this about Guild Wars 2, some statistical analysis and data directly from Arenanet on what kind of content players like or not.

  • sigur.9453sigur.9453 Member ✭✭✭
    Raids are fine the way they are, combining bosses of various difficulties

    @Wandering Mist.2973 said:

    @sigur.9453 said:

    @Wandering Mist.2973 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Astralporing.1957 said:
    As i have said before - for many players "getting better" is not something that holds any value to them. What's worse, for quite a number of them, the actual process of getting better is not enjoyable. If you'll try to train them, not only often you won't succeed, but even if you do there will be no gain here. They won't like the game more - quite the opposite, they may end up liking it less.

    So, why exactly should the game train people to be better at it?

    The problem with Heart of Thorns is it came after the really easy core game. There was no in-between content for some of the players. On the other hand, those who did play Season 2 when it was released shouldn't have any issues with Heart of Thorns, if anything a lot of the mobs were significantly nerfed with the release of Heart of Thorns. But I guess even the hardest mobs become easy if you hide behind huge blobs of players. But there is also the story of Season 2, how did they get over that and then had issues with Heart of Thorns. More likely the content drought before the expansion caused the players to become terrible at playing the game, no instanced story parts, just follow the tag in huge blobs and auto attack mobs to death for months makes players soft, and dumb.

    Ever since their first release they upped the challenge level, adding harder mobs, adding harder story instances and so on. They've been increasing the challenge level of the game for 5 years, so I wonder what are these players who don't want to "get good" still doing here. And you can't say that a Molten Brawler, a Twisted Horror, a Mordrem Thrasher (of Season 2, not the nerfed HoT version) are easier than the new Heart of Thorns mobs. Many probably forgot how they were and then called Heart of Thorns hard. Temporary content had this effect on difficulty and challenge, people forgot about it, it's another of the sad drawbacks of temporary content.

    The game has a wonderful combat system, yet many don't want to use it. If all some players want is a multi-loot farm to get their rewards without even playing the game, then what can I say, they should leave the game as soon as possible. Although Arenanet still creates brain dead farms (some unintentional), they are also creating some exciting encounters too.

    Easiest way to train people: take away brain dead farms so they have to play the game to get anything.

    It seems that the focus of the game is changing from how it was before HoT, from a very casual focused game to a more hardcore focused. Unfortunately at the same time Anet are trying to please both the casuals and the hardcore players. Blizzard had a similar problem although in the reverse, where WoW started as a pretty hardcore experience (similar to games like EQ2, etc) and then switched its focus to more casual gameplay. The problem is that in trying to please both parties, you inevitably end up pleasing nobody. And unfortunately despite your wishes for harder content, when it comes down to player populations, there will always be more casuals than hardcore players, meaning if you want to keep a game running you have to cater to the casuals first. If you try and cater only to hardcore players, you will most likely fail, which is exactly what happened to WildStar. Wildstar was designed to be an upgraded version of vanilla WoW when it came to the difficulty of its content, and focused all its effort on catering to hardcore raiders. Their problem? There weren't enough hardcore players to make it work and the game flopped.

    So whether you like it or not, an mmorpg's success relies on the casuals, as they form the majority of the playerbase.

    How is this game hardcore focused? 1 raid in 10 month, 2 fractals with OPTIONAL CM? In the meantime 8+ openworld maps , story instances,....and so on.
    are you kidding?

    That's just the start. From what you guys are saying the core game was a lot easier, and with each expansion Anet are slowly making the content more challenging. There won't be an instant change of course, but it will gradually happen over time.

    Open world =/= challenging content. (Zerg everything) Im sorry you feel that way.

  • sigur.9453sigur.9453 Member ✭✭✭
    edited December 4, 2017
    Raids are fine the way they are, combining bosses of various difficulties

    @sigur.9453 said:

    @Wandering Mist.2973 said:

    @sigur.9453 said:

    @Wandering Mist.2973 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Astralporing.1957 said:
    As i have said before - for many players "getting better" is not something that holds any value to them. What's worse, for quite a number of them, the actual process of getting better is not enjoyable. If you'll try to train them, not only often you won't succeed, but even if you do there will be no gain here. They won't like the game more - quite the opposite, they may end up liking it less.

    So, why exactly should the game train people to be better at it?

    The problem with Heart of Thorns is it came after the really easy core game. There was no in-between content for some of the players. On the other hand, those who did play Season 2 when it was released shouldn't have any issues with Heart of Thorns, if anything a lot of the mobs were significantly nerfed with the release of Heart of Thorns. But I guess even the hardest mobs become easy if you hide behind huge blobs of players. But there is also the story of Season 2, how did they get over that and then had issues with Heart of Thorns. More likely the content drought before the expansion caused the players to become terrible at playing the game, no instanced story parts, just follow the tag in huge blobs and auto attack mobs to death for months makes players soft, and dumb.

    Ever since their first release they upped the challenge level, adding harder mobs, adding harder story instances and so on. They've been increasing the challenge level of the game for 5 years, so I wonder what are these players who don't want to "get good" still doing here. And you can't say that a Molten Brawler, a Twisted Horror, a Mordrem Thrasher (of Season 2, not the nerfed HoT version) are easier than the new Heart of Thorns mobs. Many probably forgot how they were and then called Heart of Thorns hard. Temporary content had this effect on difficulty and challenge, people forgot about it, it's another of the sad drawbacks of temporary content.

    The game has a wonderful combat system, yet many don't want to use it. If all some players want is a multi-loot farm to get their rewards without even playing the game, then what can I say, they should leave the game as soon as possible. Although Arenanet still creates brain dead farms (some unintentional), they are also creating some exciting encounters too.

    Easiest way to train people: take away brain dead farms so they have to play the game to get anything.

    It seems that the focus of the game is changing from how it was before HoT, from a very casual focused game to a more hardcore focused. Unfortunately at the same time Anet are trying to please both the casuals and the hardcore players. Blizzard had a similar problem although in the reverse, where WoW started as a pretty hardcore experience (similar to games like EQ2, etc) and then switched its focus to more casual gameplay. The problem is that in trying to please both parties, you inevitably end up pleasing nobody. And unfortunately despite your wishes for harder content, when it comes down to player populations, there will always be more casuals than hardcore players, meaning if you want to keep a game running you have to cater to the casuals first. If you try and cater only to hardcore players, you will most likely fail, which is exactly what happened to WildStar. Wildstar was designed to be an upgraded version of vanilla WoW when it came to the difficulty of its content, and focused all its effort on catering to hardcore raiders. Their problem? There weren't enough hardcore players to make it work and the game flopped.

    So whether you like it or not, an mmorpg's success relies on the casuals, as they form the majority of the playerbase.

    How is this game hardcore focused? 1 raid in 10 month, 2 fractals with OPTIONAL CM? In the meantime 8+ openworld maps , story instances,....and so on.
    are you kidding?

    That's just the start. From what you guys are saying the core game was a lot easier, and with each expansion Anet are slowly making the content more challenging. There won't be an instant change of course, but it will gradually happen over time.

    Open world =/= challenging content. (Zerg everything) Im sorry you feel that way.

    You could even argue that Hot was "harder" then Pof, but that wouldt apply to your theory.

    Edit: apperently Forum IS challenging for me, sry for doublepost.

  • We need both easy and hard modes

    @sigur.9453 said:

    @Wandering Mist.2973 said:

    @sigur.9453 said:

    @Wandering Mist.2973 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Astralporing.1957 said:
    As i have said before - for many players "getting better" is not something that holds any value to them. What's worse, for quite a number of them, the actual process of getting better is not enjoyable. If you'll try to train them, not only often you won't succeed, but even if you do there will be no gain here. They won't like the game more - quite the opposite, they may end up liking it less.

    So, why exactly should the game train people to be better at it?

    The problem with Heart of Thorns is it came after the really easy core game. There was no in-between content for some of the players. On the other hand, those who did play Season 2 when it was released shouldn't have any issues with Heart of Thorns, if anything a lot of the mobs were significantly nerfed with the release of Heart of Thorns. But I guess even the hardest mobs become easy if you hide behind huge blobs of players. But there is also the story of Season 2, how did they get over that and then had issues with Heart of Thorns. More likely the content drought before the expansion caused the players to become terrible at playing the game, no instanced story parts, just follow the tag in huge blobs and auto attack mobs to death for months makes players soft, and dumb.

    Ever since their first release they upped the challenge level, adding harder mobs, adding harder story instances and so on. They've been increasing the challenge level of the game for 5 years, so I wonder what are these players who don't want to "get good" still doing here. And you can't say that a Molten Brawler, a Twisted Horror, a Mordrem Thrasher (of Season 2, not the nerfed HoT version) are easier than the new Heart of Thorns mobs. Many probably forgot how they were and then called Heart of Thorns hard. Temporary content had this effect on difficulty and challenge, people forgot about it, it's another of the sad drawbacks of temporary content.

    The game has a wonderful combat system, yet many don't want to use it. If all some players want is a multi-loot farm to get their rewards without even playing the game, then what can I say, they should leave the game as soon as possible. Although Arenanet still creates brain dead farms (some unintentional), they are also creating some exciting encounters too.

    Easiest way to train people: take away brain dead farms so they have to play the game to get anything.

    It seems that the focus of the game is changing from how it was before HoT, from a very casual focused game to a more hardcore focused. Unfortunately at the same time Anet are trying to please both the casuals and the hardcore players. Blizzard had a similar problem although in the reverse, where WoW started as a pretty hardcore experience (similar to games like EQ2, etc) and then switched its focus to more casual gameplay. The problem is that in trying to please both parties, you inevitably end up pleasing nobody. And unfortunately despite your wishes for harder content, when it comes down to player populations, there will always be more casuals than hardcore players, meaning if you want to keep a game running you have to cater to the casuals first. If you try and cater only to hardcore players, you will most likely fail, which is exactly what happened to WildStar. Wildstar was designed to be an upgraded version of vanilla WoW when it came to the difficulty of its content, and focused all its effort on catering to hardcore raiders. Their problem? There weren't enough hardcore players to make it work and the game flopped.

    So whether you like it or not, an mmorpg's success relies on the casuals, as they form the majority of the playerbase.

    How is this game hardcore focused? 1 raid in 10 month, 2 fractals with OPTIONAL CM? In the meantime 8+ openworld maps , story instances,....and so on.
    are you kidding?

    That's just the start. From what you guys are saying the core game was a lot easier, and with each expansion Anet are slowly making the content more challenging. There won't be an instant change of course, but it will gradually happen over time.

    Open world =/= challenging content. (Zerg everything) Im sorry you feel that way.

    I'm just going by what you guys are saying. I've only been playing this game for a couple of months, so I don't know if it used to be harder or not.

  • sigur.9453sigur.9453 Member ✭✭✭
    Raids are fine the way they are, combining bosses of various difficulties

    @Wandering Mist.2973 said:

    @sigur.9453 said:

    @Wandering Mist.2973 said:

    @sigur.9453 said:

    @Wandering Mist.2973 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Astralporing.1957 said:
    As i have said before - for many players "getting better" is not something that holds any value to them. What's worse, for quite a number of them, the actual process of getting better is not enjoyable. If you'll try to train them, not only often you won't succeed, but even if you do there will be no gain here. They won't like the game more - quite the opposite, they may end up liking it less.

    So, why exactly should the game train people to be better at it?

    The problem with Heart of Thorns is it came after the really easy core game. There was no in-between content for some of the players. On the other hand, those who did play Season 2 when it was released shouldn't have any issues with Heart of Thorns, if anything a lot of the mobs were significantly nerfed with the release of Heart of Thorns. But I guess even the hardest mobs become easy if you hide behind huge blobs of players. But there is also the story of Season 2, how did they get over that and then had issues with Heart of Thorns. More likely the content drought before the expansion caused the players to become terrible at playing the game, no instanced story parts, just follow the tag in huge blobs and auto attack mobs to death for months makes players soft, and dumb.

    Ever since their first release they upped the challenge level, adding harder mobs, adding harder story instances and so on. They've been increasing the challenge level of the game for 5 years, so I wonder what are these players who don't want to "get good" still doing here. And you can't say that a Molten Brawler, a Twisted Horror, a Mordrem Thrasher (of Season 2, not the nerfed HoT version) are easier than the new Heart of Thorns mobs. Many probably forgot how they were and then called Heart of Thorns hard. Temporary content had this effect on difficulty and challenge, people forgot about it, it's another of the sad drawbacks of temporary content.

    The game has a wonderful combat system, yet many don't want to use it. If all some players want is a multi-loot farm to get their rewards without even playing the game, then what can I say, they should leave the game as soon as possible. Although Arenanet still creates brain dead farms (some unintentional), they are also creating some exciting encounters too.

    Easiest way to train people: take away brain dead farms so they have to play the game to get anything.

    It seems that the focus of the game is changing from how it was before HoT, from a very casual focused game to a more hardcore focused. Unfortunately at the same time Anet are trying to please both the casuals and the hardcore players. Blizzard had a similar problem although in the reverse, where WoW started as a pretty hardcore experience (similar to games like EQ2, etc) and then switched its focus to more casual gameplay. The problem is that in trying to please both parties, you inevitably end up pleasing nobody. And unfortunately despite your wishes for harder content, when it comes down to player populations, there will always be more casuals than hardcore players, meaning if you want to keep a game running you have to cater to the casuals first. If you try and cater only to hardcore players, you will most likely fail, which is exactly what happened to WildStar. Wildstar was designed to be an upgraded version of vanilla WoW when it came to the difficulty of its content, and focused all its effort on catering to hardcore raiders. Their problem? There weren't enough hardcore players to make it work and the game flopped.

    So whether you like it or not, an mmorpg's success relies on the casuals, as they form the majority of the playerbase.

    How is this game hardcore focused? 1 raid in 10 month, 2 fractals with OPTIONAL CM? In the meantime 8+ openworld maps , story instances,....and so on.
    are you kidding?

    That's just the start. From what you guys are saying the core game was a lot easier, and with each expansion Anet are slowly making the content more challenging. There won't be an instant change of course, but it will gradually happen over time.

    Open world =/= challenging content. (Zerg everything) Im sorry you feel that way.

    I'm just going by what you guys are saying. I've only been playing this game for a couple of months, so I don't know if it used to be harder or not.

    Raids and Fractal CM ´s are hard(er), the rest...not so much, mobs are annoying at best (since release)

  • We need both easy and hard modes

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Wandering Mist.2973 said:
    It seems that the focus of the game is changing from how it was before HoT, from a very casual focused game to a more hardcore focused.

    I hope you can read what you quoted, mostly the second paragraph. The game wasn't "casual focused", there were quite a few releases that added challenging content, story parts that had increased difficulty, mobs of a higher difficulty level than both expansions and so on. What happened is that people forgot about all that, because it was temporary content, plus the huge content drought before the release of the expansion caused players to only spend their months in brain dead farms. The game was never "casual focused" in terms of difficulty and challenge, the game was casual focused in a dozen other things, easy to reach level cap, no gear treadmill, no level cap increase with expansions, easy to get higher stat gear, no subscription fee, no competition in the open world (be it for exp, quest objectives, resource nodes or loot), no requirement to form a party to play most of the content and others. That's what made the game "casual friendly" and all of it still applies. The game had since release harder and more challenging fights. "Casual" can mean more than just difficulty.

    @Wandering Mist.2973 said:
    And unfortunately despite your wishes for harder content, when it comes down to player populations, there will always be more casuals than hardcore players, meaning if you want to keep a game running you have to cater to the casuals first.

    Got some kind of confirmation about this? I'm sure you have some hard facts proving this about Guild Wars 2, some statistical analysis and data directly from Arenanet on what kind of content players like or not.

    It is the nature of mmorpgs, whether you like it or not. Just take a look at this graph from WoW raiding:

    http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/1745139-Armory-Stats-Highmaul-and-Blackrock-Foundry-Blue-Tweets-Heroes-Map-Rift-Wardrobe

    Looking at this graph you can see that for a single wing of a WoW raid, there are multiple difficulties (mythic being the hardest). 70% of the WoW population completed the first wing on any difficulty. That then drops down to less than 10% of the WoW population who completed that same wing on the hardest difficulty. So if you are a games developer, do you think it makes more sense to make content exclusively for the <10% of the population, or 70% of the population? What do you think is going to keep the game running for longer?

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭
    Raids have problems, but we need a better solution

    @Wandering Mist.2973 said:
    I'm just going by what you guys are saying. I've only been playing this game for a couple of months, so I don't know if it used to be harder or not.

    Let's take a trip to the past, so new players know and older players remember:
    Shadow of the Mad King: Added the Modus Sceleris (usually solo) fights and the Ascend to Madness mini-dungeon (also solo)
    Lost Shores: Gave us the Karka, the Young Karka especially became the bane of new Southsun explorers, also Fractals of the Mists (9 of them) was introduced here
    Wintersday: The first Wintersday gave us the little toy princesses in the open world which could wipe entire groups of players, sadly subsequent Wintersday events only have skritt as opponents which pose no treat
    Flame and Frost: Gave us multiple different Molten Alliance mobs, play the assorted fractals to find them, Molten Brawlers were probably the hardest regular mobs. It also gave us a fun new dungeon to play, which was later split in two Fractals.
    The Secret of Southsun: gave us two mini-fights, Canach and Subdirector NULL
    Sky Pirates of Tyria: A new dungeon, which is now split in two Fractals, and lots of new Aetherblade mobs. Outside the instances, you can find them in Edge of the Mists and inside the Not So Secret jumping puzzle

    Up to this point there have been additions of harder-than-release mobs and lots of instances, after those the main focus of the game became the open world and huge blobs, however there were a few instanced/challenging pieces of content:

    Cutthroat Politics: the candidate trials was a nice activity, challenging enough to get the best timers
    Queen's Jubilee: the Queen's Gauntlet, a solo experience where you duel various powerful NPCs was a great addition
    Tequatl Rising: the revised Tequatl, although open world content, it was considered very hard, especially for random groups, for a long time
    Twilight Assault: another dungeon!
    Tower of Nightmares: a multi-layered open world zone with lots of new and exciting foes, krait and nightmare court mostly.
    Fractured: another Fractal was added, together with a re-release as Fractals of the Living World dungeons mentioned above.

    Here is where instanced content (repeatable) of any kind stop being released. It was November 2013, from August 2012 to November 2013, in 15 months, they added 13 dungeons, some mini-dungeons, challenging activities, and lots of new and exciting enemies to fight. All much more challenging that what we got at the game's release.

    Afterwards we got the exciting Battle for Lion's Arch and the end of Scarlet which was challenging for open world content. Then until October 2015 with the release of Heart of Thorns we only got 2 farm maps, Dry Top and Silverwastes. From November 2013 to October 2015, nearly TWO years of no challenging content added. Granted from January 2015 to October 2015 we got absolutely nothing.

    Was Dry Top and Silverwastes stupidly easy? No there were new Mordrem mobs introduced there, that were severely nerfed when Heart of Thorns was released. Mordrem Wolves had retaliation (now swiftness) and could instant kill light armor users when hitting from behind, Mordrem Thrashers used to be immune to attacks, unless you hit them from behind (where they left a trail of torment and cripple). There were also many challenging story parts, and even more challenging achievements to get, so the game didn't become really easy at that point, however, and this is important, none of the challenging bits had lasting power. So once their value was diminished, we were left with 2 years of farming the same two maps, or farming some other maps, waiting for the expansion release. And during those 2 years the community became dumb, and the "Guild Wars 2 is for casuals" argument appeared.

    Sorry for the wall of text, but I tried to illustrate every release we've had and how Arenanet always added some degree challenge in their releases, until the content drought.
    The "Heart of Thorns is too hard" argument was from players with sort memory, or those who never played the game before and only played during the "let's form a blob and farm mobs while watching netflix on our second monitor" period.

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭
    Raids have problems, but we need a better solution

    @Wandering Mist.2973 said:
    So if you are a games developer, do you think it makes more sense to make content exclusively for the <10% of the population, or 70% of the population?

    Guild Wars 2 Raids are NOT at the same level as WoW mythic Raids.

  • We need both easy and hard modes

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Wandering Mist.2973 said:
    So if you are a games developer, do you think it makes more sense to make content exclusively for the <10% of the population, or 70% of the population?

    Guild Wars 2 Raids are NOT at the same level as WoW mythic Raids.

    I'm aware of that, but the principle still applies. If you try and cater too much to a minority of your playerbase and exclude the majority, your game will most likely fail.

  • maxwelgm.4315maxwelgm.4315 Member ✭✭✭
    Raids are fine the way they are, combining bosses of various difficulties

    I'm gonna somewhat defend against a claim that's being made consistently here, which is that GW2 playerbase is in average less skilled than in other MMOs. This is just not true. I play MMOs since the golden era of Lineage 2 and WoW and people "sucked" just as much back then as they do here and now. The lacks of vertical progression and gear obsolescence is what actually causes it to show harder in GW2. I've tanked through endgame Raids in games where PvP was open and people lost their nerves harder than any Triple Trouble ever; It's also blatantly shown in WoW where content becomes obsolete once people have the gear to melt through encounters and only the few % of first clears actually "count" for what it's worth.

    In other games you can hide yourself from actually playing well behind either a paywall or farmwall worthy of shiny S-grade equipment, whereas in GW2 all you can do to live up to your reputation is perform your rotation, there are no "buts" and ascended equipment will give you less than 5% of error margin compared to everyone else. And this playing capacity is much less widespread than you all are making it out to be (regardless if you personally think it's easy to achieve). The first game was actually like this too, you reached level 20 and that was it no more vertical progression. What makes it or breaks it on that game is your theorycrafting skills so you can choose correctly which skills are going to be best suitable for a given instance.

    GW2 in some ways but not others, actually pushes players much more than a lot of MMOs around. What it does lack is a more streamlined mechanism of introducing the game concepts such as the defiance bar, which is probably caused by the fact that many of these concepts weren't even around during the time of release. Once that is done with (and the Fractal team is somewhat achieving it by putting fractals like Shattered Observatory and Twilight Oasis with a good T1-T4 progression), we'd probably see less disdain going towards raid content. Basically, it's easier to close the gap between newbies and raiders from the newbie side (because it just has to be done seamlessly in the rest of the game) than it would be by working into bringing raids to newbie levels. And don't kitten on GW2 newbies, the playerbase is not worse than in other games.

  • STIHL.2489STIHL.2489 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited December 4, 2017

    @Wandering Mist.2973 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Wandering Mist.2973 said:
    So if you are a games developer, do you think it makes more sense to make content exclusively for the <10% of the population, or 70% of the population?

    Guild Wars 2 Raids are NOT at the same level as WoW mythic Raids.

    I'm aware of that, but the principle still applies. If you try and cater too much to a minority of your playerbase and exclude the majority, your game will most likely fail.

    We got 5 Raid wings in 2 years. We got 16 new open world maps in 2 years. Do they cater too much to a "minority"?

    ok so.. a lot was made for 100% of the community.. how does that justify making stuff for the minority? Why not just keep making stuff or the 100% so we all can enjoy the game?

    There are two kinds of Gamers, Salty, and Extra Salty.
    Ego is the Anesthesia that dullens the pain of Stupidity.

  • sigur.9453sigur.9453 Member ✭✭✭
    Raids are fine the way they are, combining bosses of various difficulties

    @STIHL.2489 said:

    @Wandering Mist.2973 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Wandering Mist.2973 said:
    So if you are a games developer, do you think it makes more sense to make content exclusively for the <10% of the population, or 70% of the population?

    Guild Wars 2 Raids are NOT at the same level as WoW mythic Raids.

    I'm aware of that, but the principle still applies. If you try and cater too much to a minority of your playerbase and exclude the majority, your game will most likely fail.

    We got 5 Raid wings in 2 years. We got 16 new open world maps in 2 years. Do they cater too much to a "minority"?

    ok so.. a lot was made for 100% of the community.. how does that justify making stuff for the minority? Why not just keep making stuff or the 100% so we all can enjoy the game?

    100% of the game are playable by 100% of the community (exept of course expac content...you get the point)

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭
    Raids have problems, but we need a better solution

    @maxwelgm.4315 said:
    GW2 in some ways but not others, actually pushes players much more than a lot of MMOs around.

    Guild Wars 2 used to push players from release date and up to about June 2013, then it started focusing more and more on blob content. Until November 2013 there was a healthy mix of blob and non-blob content, then at that time we got the epic Season 1 finale, the Battle for Lion's Arch content, spanning 3 months, from January 2014 to March 2014.

    Apparently with Scarlet's death, game content variety also died, from March 2014 up until October 2015 and the release of Heart of Thorns, the only "challenging" parts were story instances in Season 2, and mostly some of their achievements. Nothing repeatable. The rest of the content, was farming on Dry Top and the Silverwastes. The final event of Silverwastes, the Vinewrath was a sad excuse for content compared to the Marionette we got earlier. One and a half year of being lazy, farming the same thing over and over.

    When the game was fresh, on more than one game reviews, you could read that this is a challenging game. A "hard game", and when considering dungeons, "some of the hardest content in an MMORPG". Then with Scarlet's death, we got to the "Guild Wars 2 is the easiest game in the market". It's interesting how player perception changed over the years, without something phenomenal happening in the mean time.

  • Game of Bones.8975Game of Bones.8975 Member ✭✭✭✭
    We need both easy and hard modes

    Raids need a "starter" for those who want to join the action, but are put off the the "hard core" nature of the single line.
    So many of those who say it's easy to join a PUG get out there and train in raids. No one is actually training! They are showing. There is no training when you constantly die. You don't learn anything watching others.

    "That's what" -- She

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭
    Raids have problems, but we need a better solution

    @Game of Bones.8975 said:
    Raids need a "starter" for those who want to join the action, but are put off the the "hard core" nature of the single line.
    So many of those who say it's easy to join a PUG get out there and train in raids. No one is actually training! They are showing. There is no training when you constantly die. You don't learn anything watching others.

    Then those who can clear Raids were taught how to by the Six Gods?

  • CptAurellian.9537CptAurellian.9537 Member ✭✭✭✭
    Raids are fine the way they are, combining bosses of various difficulties

    @Wandering Mist.2973 said:
    If you try and cater only to hardcore players, you will most likely fail, which is exactly what happened to WildStar. Wildstar was designed to be an upgraded version of vanilla WoW when it came to the difficulty of its content, and focused all its effort on catering to hardcore raiders. Their problem? There weren't enough hardcore players to make it work and the game flopped.

    Now that's a rather questionable claim, given the astonishing amount and, in some aspects, severity of bugs Wildstar had at launch. Add in some incredibly bad design principles that were not at all connected to the "hardcore" stuff and I seriously doubt the "hardcore" factor was the decisive one in that game's fall. Unfortunately, we'll never know due to that annoying lack of neat and tidy control experiments in real life.

    Praise delta!

  • Game of Bones.8975Game of Bones.8975 Member ✭✭✭✭
    We need both easy and hard modes

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Game of Bones.8975 said:
    Raids need a "starter" for those who want to join the action, but are put off the the "hard core" nature of the single line.
    So many of those who say it's easy to join a PUG get out there and train in raids. No one is actually training! They are showing. There is no training when you constantly die. You don't learn anything watching others.

    Then those who can clear Raids were taught how to by the Six Gods?

    I was referring to those who advertise that they will train, but don't.
    I can show you how I do something with my character (the pro with the build and equipment), but you (the beginner tripping over your shoelaces) may not be able to translate that to your character quickly enough between bouts of dying to learn from your mistakes to not do that again.
    People are asking for slowed down version for beginners to learn what builds and equipment to use (and to tie their shoes) and not die as easily to learn.
    Even Fractals ramp up from easy to hard, why do people think Raids should remain immune? Just think how many more people would Raid if they weren’t intimidated by the automatic standstill to full-speed aspect.

    "That's what" -- She

  • Murdock.6547Murdock.6547 Member ✭✭✭
    edited December 4, 2017
    Raids have problems, but we need a better solution

    Right now anet is at the precipice of a huge decision.
    "Do we want our game to be a raiding mmo?"

    ...I'm going to go have to make a new thread for this though...

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭
    Raids have problems, but we need a better solution

    @Game of Bones.8975 said:
    People are asking for slowed down version for beginners to learn what builds and equipment to use (and to tie their shoes) and not die as easily to learn.

    Usually when someone trains people they tell them what builds and equipment to use. Reading a guide also helps in getting the proper build and gear, I don't know how a slowed version could work to teach players their builds and equipment.

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