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Do raids need easy/normal/hard difficulty mode? [merged]

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  • Astralporing.1957Astralporing.1957 Member ✭✭✭✭
    We need an easy mode, but not a hard mode

    @maddoctor.2738 said:
    Ever since their first release they upped the challenge level, adding harder mobs, adding harder story instances and so on. They've been increasing the challenge level of the game for 5 years, so I wonder what are these players who don't want to "get good" still doing here.

    Simple answer? They aren't. They simply play less and less with each change Anet makes to the game.

    @maddoctor.2738 said:
    Easiest way to train people: take away brain dead farms so they have to play the game to get anything.

    Forcing people into harder content never works, (unless you want to make them quit, of course).

    The whole point of a social game is to play with the people you want to play with, not be forced to play with the people you don't.

  • zinkz.7045zinkz.7045 Member ✭✭✭

    GW2 raids are already easy mode, I've played games where it took months on some raids for the first completion, not mere hours, and those were games with many more dedicated raid guilds than this casual game.

  • maxwelgm.4315maxwelgm.4315 Member ✭✭✭
    Raids are fine the way they are, combining bosses of various difficulties

    @zinkz.7045 said:
    GW2 raids are already easy mode, I've played games where it took months on some raids for the first completion, not mere hours, and those were games with many more dedicated raid guilds than this casual game.

    GW2 has no gear treadmill. To kill a mythic WoW boss on release you HAVE to do it under-equipped for the encounter which is the definition of artificial difficulty (TM). This has been discussed to death in this topic and every single topic about raids, it's just not worthy the comparison to other MMOs. To make truly difficult raids in this game (like Dhuum's CM) means to push players to the limit of their actual capacity of performing flawless rotations for more than 10 minutes straight, because you can't crunch them down with higher numbers, which is what many other MMOs are all about, throwing more numbers at you. With that said, this line of thinking is not why Raids should remain as they are - If I thought this game was already perma-ez and I could play it with a blindfold, I wouldn't play as much as I do, so people who say this game is boring sure as kitten don't mean what they think they mean.

  • We need both easy and hard modes

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Game of Bones.8975 said:
    People are asking for slowed down version for beginners to learn what builds and equipment to use (and to tie their shoes) and not die as easily to learn.

    Usually when someone trains people they tell them what builds and equipment to use. Reading a guide also helps in getting the proper build and gear, I don't know how a slowed version could work to teach players their builds and equipment.

    It's all very well having someone tell you to copy and paste a build and follow a dps rotation, but you won't be able to fully utilize that build just by copying someone else. Players develop a greater understanding when they are given the time to work things out on their own. This deeper knowledge of the build and their class is going to help them a lot more than them just copying a rotation to the letter, as it will allow them to adapt to diffrrent situations on the fly.

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭
    Raids have problems, but we need a better solution

    @Wandering Mist.2973 said:
    It's all very well having someone tell you to copy and paste a build and follow a dps rotation, but you won't be able to fully utilize that build just by copying someone else. Players develop a greater understanding when they are given the time to work things out on their own. This deeper knowledge of the build and their class is going to help them a lot more than them just copying a rotation to the letter, as it will allow them to adapt to diffrrent situations on the fly.

    Of course going into Raids with a build someone else told you isn't a very good idea. That's why we have the rest of the game to go train and learn how to use that build properly.

  • We need both easy and hard modes

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Wandering Mist.2973 said:
    It's all very well having someone tell you to copy and paste a build and follow a dps rotation, but you won't be able to fully utilize that build just by copying someone else. Players develop a greater understanding when they are given the time to work things out on their own. This deeper knowledge of the build and their class is going to help them a lot more than them just copying a rotation to the letter, as it will allow them to adapt to diffrrent situations on the fly.

    Of course going into Raids with a build someone else told you isn't a very good idea. That's why we have the rest of the game to go train and learn how to use that build properly.

    Yes except the rest of the game doesn't require the use of those builds or proper use of mechanics. When was the last time you had to break a defiance bar or use a blinding cloud outside of raids and t4 fractals? When do you ever even need to use any cc abilities at all? You don't.

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭
    Raids have problems, but we need a better solution

    @Wandering Mist.2973 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Wandering Mist.2973 said:
    It's all very well having someone tell you to copy and paste a build and follow a dps rotation, but you won't be able to fully utilize that build just by copying someone else. Players develop a greater understanding when they are given the time to work things out on their own. This deeper knowledge of the build and their class is going to help them a lot more than them just copying a rotation to the letter, as it will allow them to adapt to diffrrent situations on the fly.

    Of course going into Raids with a build someone else told you isn't a very good idea. That's why we have the rest of the game to go train and learn how to use that build properly.

    Yes except the rest of the game doesn't require the use of those builds or proper use of mechanics. When was the last time you had to break a defiance bar or use a blinding cloud outside of raids and t4 fractals? When do you ever even need to use any cc abilities at all? You don't.

    You've never been to any Heart of Thorns map then...

  • We need both easy and hard modes

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Wandering Mist.2973 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Wandering Mist.2973 said:
    It's all very well having someone tell you to copy and paste a build and follow a dps rotation, but you won't be able to fully utilize that build just by copying someone else. Players develop a greater understanding when they are given the time to work things out on their own. This deeper knowledge of the build and their class is going to help them a lot more than them just copying a rotation to the letter, as it will allow them to adapt to diffrrent situations on the fly.

    Of course going into Raids with a build someone else told you isn't a very good idea. That's why we have the rest of the game to go train and learn how to use that build properly.

    Yes except the rest of the game doesn't require the use of those builds or proper use of mechanics. When was the last time you had to break a defiance bar or use a blinding cloud outside of raids and t4 fractals? When do you ever even need to use any cc abilities at all? You don't.

    You've never been to any Heart of Thorns map then...

    I went through the heart of thorns storyline on my mesmer with no problems at all. Not sure what the big deal is tbh.

  • zinkz.7045zinkz.7045 Member ✭✭✭
    edited December 4, 2017

    @maxwelgm.4315 said:

    @zinkz.7045 said:
    GW2 raids are already easy mode, I've played games where it took months on some raids for the first completion, not mere hours, and those were games with many more dedicated raid guilds than this casual game.

    GW2 has no gear treadmill. To kill a mythic WoW boss on release you HAVE to do it under-equipped for the encounter which is the definition of artificial difficulty (TM). This has been discussed to death in this topic and every single topic about raids, it's just not worthy the comparison to other MMOs. To make truly difficult raids in this game (like Dhuum's CM) means to push players to the limit of their actual capacity of performing flawless rotations for more than 10 minutes straight, because you can't crunch them down with higher numbers, which is what many other MMOs are all about, throwing more numbers at you. With that said, this line of thinking is not why Raids should remain as they are - If I thought this game was already perma-ez and I could play it with a blindfold, I wouldn't play as much as I do, so people who say this game is boring sure as kitten don't mean what they think they mean.

    I didn't suggest they make 'truly difficult raids' in this game, GW2 is aimed at casual players in most respects, so it only makes sense the raids are also largely aimed at that, I don't expect GW2 raids to take months to complete and have hardcore guilds tearing their hair out like has happened in certain games, it doesn't fit GW2's playerbase, but that doesn't alter that raids in this game with barely any hardcore guilds take mere hours before they are first completed, there is a reason for that, and it is not because they are difficult. ;)

    As for he "artificial difficulty" nonsense, having to initially do raids in games underequipped is no more artificial than anything else about PvE, I hate to break it to you but artificial difficulty is basically what PvE is in MMORPGs, you play a game of simon says for no real reason, other than the fact AI is kitten/non-existent, the mechanical requirements of playing these games is very low (again go see SC2, Streetfighter, CS, etc for games that require actual mechanical ability), etc.

    So they basically add 'mechanics' to artificially provide a "skill" requirement, problem is that is basically a game of Simon Says and once people have learnt those mechanics the game play becomes trivial, which is why PvE players need a constant stream of 'shiny things' to get them to play what is substandard gameplay and is one of the reasons this genre is in decline.

  • CptAurellian.9537CptAurellian.9537 Member ✭✭✭✭
    Raids are fine the way they are, combining bosses of various difficulties

    @Wandering Mist.2973 said:
    Yes except the rest of the game doesn't require the use of those builds or proper use of mechanics. When was the last time you had to break a defiance bar or use a blinding cloud outside of raids and t4 fractals? When do you ever even need to use any cc abilities at all? You don't.

    Oh, I had quite a defiance-heavy open world encounter just before I went into fractals. Serpent's Ire. But that's not the point. Defiance bars and that stuff have been around in enough open world content where people could learn it. Just why learn it if not breaking bars does not trigger an immediate punishment you notice? However, that results in another problem: at the current state of the game, people won't learn how to react to defiance bars. Introduce the punishment mentioned above and large open world events will likely become unplayable. Some defiance tutorials should probably have been added in the personal and living story long ago.

    R.I.P. Build Templates, 15.10.2019

  • Ahlen.7591Ahlen.7591 Member ✭✭✭
    We need both easy and hard modes

    GW2 should learn the lesson WoW did about having raid difficulties. Sooner rather than later. You still have Mythic for the people who want a serious challenge, heroic for casual players, normal for pugs, and LFR for ...special people or those that just want story.

    It works well and should be duplicated on any game that wants raiding to be part of its major content.

  • flog.3485flog.3485 Member ✭✭✭
    Raids are fine the way they are, combining bosses of various difficulties

    @Ahlen.7591 said:
    GW2 should learn the lesson WoW did about having raid difficulties. Sooner rather than later. You still have Mythic for the people who want a serious challenge, heroic for casual players, normal for pugs, and LFR for ...special people or those that just want story.

    It works well and should be duplicated on any game that wants raiding to be part of its major content.

    @Ahlen.7591 said:
    GW2 should learn the lesson WoW did about having raid difficulties. Sooner rather than later. You still have Mythic for the people who want a serious challenge, heroic for casual players, normal for pugs, and LFR for ...special people or those that just want story.

    It works well and should be duplicated on any game that wants raiding to be part of its major content.

    How is that an argument ? Wow pushes players to complete the raids because they are actually required to be completed. Hence why LFR with different tiers.

    In GW2 you do whatever you want getting gear in whatever way you want (that suits you better of course). Because open world+festivals content is king while instanced content have been getting regular and meaningful additions and revamps for the last 2 years only.

    I mean, nothing really forces people to do instanced content. (Reminds me I still haven't done fractal observatory by the way ^^).

  • maxwelgm.4315maxwelgm.4315 Member ✭✭✭
    Raids are fine the way they are, combining bosses of various difficulties

    @Ahlen.7591 said:
    GW2 should learn the lesson WoW did about having raid difficulties. Sooner rather than later. You still have Mythic for the people who want a serious challenge, heroic for casual players, normal for pugs, and LFR for ...special people or those that just want story.

    It works well and should be duplicated on any game that wants raiding to be part of its major content.

    Thing is, Anet doesn't want raiding to be part of its major content - even though ironically people really wish to play it somewhat (there's what 4 threads about ez mode raids?). The Raids team has outdone itself with every release and everything inside the wings from the art to the gameplay and to the rewards are a league above a lot of what we get in open world (Astral skins from new episode are kinda fun but White Mantle weapons? They are Black Lion material, acquirable without gemstore, and only a small example).

    But no matter if the mode ended up being so good, that people hate how Anet (accidentally?) put some of their A-Team to develop niche content, it's still niche content, and I don't think we should make it central, specially with the quality of the Living World releases increasing more and more.

  • Miellyn.6847Miellyn.6847 Member ✭✭✭
    edited December 5, 2017
    Raids are fine the way they are, combining bosses of various difficulties

    @Ahlen.7591 said:
    GW2 should learn the lesson WoW did about having raid difficulties. Sooner rather than later. You still have Mythic for the people who want a serious challenge, heroic for casual players, normal for pugs, and LFR for ...special people or those that just want story.

    It works well and should be duplicated on any game that wants raiding to be part of its major content.

    As you said, it works well for games that have raids as main content. GW2 is not such a game. The main content ist LS and open world.

  • Henry.5713Henry.5713 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited December 5, 2017
    We need a hard mode, but not an easy mode

    @Ahlen.7591 said:
    GW2 should learn the lesson WoW did about having raid difficulties. Sooner rather than later. You still have Mythic for the people who want a serious challenge, heroic for casual players, normal for pugs, and LFR for ...special people or those that just want story.

    It works well and should be duplicated on any game that wants raiding to be part of its major content.

    Which would actually mean that we do not need different modes here considering how raids are not part of the major content. They are nothing more than a small addition to the vast and rather casual friendly PvE content this game offers. There was, is and never will be a focus on raid content.
    Besides, the majority of raiders are active PvX players. Most spend the least amount of their playing hours actually raiding unless we are talking about the most hardcore who will do multiple clears over different accounts per week and take part in record runs. They are only a tiny group of an already small group of players. Everyone else in the raiding community can be seen in other PvE content, PvP or WvW far more frequently.

    Progress isn't made by early risers. It's made by lazy men trying to find easier ways to do something. ~ Robert Heinlein

  • Felipe.1807Felipe.1807 Member ✭✭✭✭
    Raids have problems, but we need a better solution

    To me, the main problem will allways be try to gather 10 people to do these kind of content...back in the day when dungeons were still a thing, sometimes you just wouldnt get a group to try for a not popular dungeon/path...and this was just a 5 people instance...also, I wanna actually play the game, see the story and explore the whole place, not just stack inside a boss and use the same rotation over and over again till the boss is dead...lol i saw people getting kicked from dungeons for just not skipping the cinematics , and this was stuff like AC...I imagine that raiders are 10 times worse then this...my own guild mates, who used to run dungeons even with underleved people to teach the paths, are allready used to kick pugs out of the group if the DPS is low...this is not about hard or easy, lol theres no hard content on GW2.
    In my opinion, a easy solution would be give a 5 people option or a solo mode, you would play with the NPCs(could be members of Dragon Watch)...wouldnt give rewards, would just be to explore and see the story behind...they did it with Arah story mode, cant see why they cant do the same here.

  • Feanor.2358Feanor.2358 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited December 6, 2017
    Raids are fine the way they are, combining bosses of various difficulties

    @Lonami.2987 said:
    Raids are neither viable nor profitable being exclusive content. We need more raiders.

    Disagree.

    First off, there's no problem with exclusive content. On a broader level, it's either exclusive or generic. The game is full of exclusive content, content targeted toward specific, players which make up for a small part of the player base. That's fine. Even more - that's the sensible thing to do. You can't make generic content exciting, so you can actually keep more players in the game with a variety of different exclusive content. Which the game does.

    @Lonami.2987 said:> Lack of difficulty modes is hurting hardcore raiding

    I like my raids hard, and I guess many raiders do as well. I absolutely despise some of the easier bosses, specially escort and trio, and I believe the challenge motes from W4 should have been the default gameplay option for those bosses.

    Why does ArenaNet put in those easy bosses in, then? It's pretty clear, and you don't need to be a genius. They're there for the noobs.

    Because there's no easy/normal/hard mode distinction, all those difficulty levels are shoved in inside the same single raid mode. Because, as the point above shows, raids are not profitable if only the 1% experiences them.

    We'll keep getting things like escort as long as there's no difficulty modes. All of you arguing against difficulty modes because raids need to stay hard and only hard, you're shooting yourselves in the face, and I hope you enjoy easy bosses and dumb filler events, because we'll keep getting them. Not like the normal bosses are too hard, either. I think VG was 2-manned a few days ago? Looking good for raid difficulty, eh?

    You need to look a bit further than just mechanics. We'll keep getting things like Escort no matter what. Because there are design notions like pacing. You can't make a boss feel epic, threatening and utterly challenging if it's on the same level as every other boss. Variance in difficulty is an important tool to do that. It's not that you can't do a harder Escort or Trio. It's not that you want to put it there for players seeking lesser challenge (you have FotM for that already). It's that you want to distinguish what comes next, use the contrast to emphasise the next boss.

    This kind of undermines your next point about difficulty modes being healthy for the raids. I can agree on adding higher difficulties. Which we already get btw, in the form of CMs. Lower difficulty raids would be rather pointless in my opinion, as they will serve the same purpose as FotM. And if the rewards there remain - as they should - lower and weekly-gated, there will simply not be enough interested players to warrant the development time.

  • Yasi.9065Yasi.9065 Member ✭✭✭
    Raids are fine the way they are, combining bosses of various difficulties

    We already have easy mode and hard mode. Its called normal mode and challenge mode.

  • We need both easy and hard modes

    I would like to see a easy and hard mode for raids, but I don't belive it's worth the Dev time to do so. At the morment.

  • Tyson.5160Tyson.5160 Member ✭✭✭✭
    We need both easy and hard modes

    Honestly, I want the Raid community to grow, I want more players in the Raid, whether that be with multi tier difficulties like they do Fractals. I would hate for Raids to go down the path that “Stronghold” Pvp mode went...

  • CedarDog.9723CedarDog.9723 Member ✭✭✭
    Raids are fine the way they are, combining bosses of various difficulties

    Instead of making an easy mode (so that players will probably play it once for what will most likely be little to no rewards), why not just make a lore recap with an extended cutscene like they did for living season 1?

  • Astralporing.1957Astralporing.1957 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited December 12, 2017
    We need an easy mode, but not a hard mode

    @CedarDog.9723 said:
    Instead of making an easy mode (so that players will probably play it once for what will most likely be little to no rewards), why not just make a lore recap with an extended cutscene like they did for living season 1?

    For the same reason why that recap didn't work out and people are still asking for LS1 to be introduced in repeatable form (even though given its nature it would end up as something completely different). Turns out infodumps are never as good as playing through content.

    Though i do agree that the storymode that noone would have a reason to repeat is not exactly a good use of dev resources.

    The whole point of a social game is to play with the people you want to play with, not be forced to play with the people you don't.

  • Torolan.5816Torolan.5816 Member ✭✭✭
    edited December 12, 2017

    The idea that there are more or just slightly less hardcore players than casual ones is simply bogus, even when you apply a generous definition of hardcore. Only at work you will find more professionals than amateurs, and even then you will have a significant minority of people that barely qualify for their jobs even if they already do them for decades.

    Personally I hope that Anet someday comes away again from the idea that they have to be like any other MMO.

  • CedarDog.9723CedarDog.9723 Member ✭✭✭
    Raids are fine the way they are, combining bosses of various difficulties

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @CedarDog.9723 said:
    Instead of making an easy mode (so that players will probably play it once for what will most likely be little to no rewards), why not just make a lore recap with an extended cutscene like they did for living season 1?

    For the same reason why that recap didn't work out and people are still asking for LS1 to be introduced in repeatable form (even though given its nature it would end up as something completely different). Turns out infodumps are never as good as playing through content.

    Though i do agree that the storymode that noone would have a reason to repeat is not exactly a good use of dev resources.

    I guess I do kind of wonder if having the challenge motes in place in a number of the bosses wouldn't make having a baby mote easier to do though. Like activate baby mote, boss health/cc bar is halved, empty loot table.

  • marelooke.9708marelooke.9708 Member ✭✭
    edited December 13, 2017
    Raids are fine the way they are, combining bosses of various difficulties

    No, just no. The only good way to have easy/hard modes is if the mechanics are different enough otherwise you just bore your raiders (hi Blizzard, yawn) and if you do that then either you're in CM waters or you are already designing what is basically a new boss.

    Personally I feel raids should build up in difficulty, like they used to in the TBC days (same as heroic dungeons did then, or GW2 fractals).
    If you started out as a new raiding guild during TBC you started with Karazahn/Gruul/Maggy, then SSC/TK then went to ZA (not sure if ZA was harder or easier, it was a 10man tho, while most other raids were 25), then Mount Hyjal, then BT and then Sunwell Plateau and you'd probably go through them in that order (if for no other reason than that raid atunement was a thing and you weren't even getting into most of those without doing at least some of the previous ones)
    Not sure where I'd fit the TBC world bosses (like Doomlord Kazzak) in there (unlike the GW2 ones they weren't exactly killable without a competent organized raid guild)

    Atunements were removed due to complaining since some people couldn't manage them, but given how they mostly required you to kill the previous tier end boss they then went and complained some more when they couldn't get through the new raids (shocker, if you couldn't get through the previous ones, which were easier), then during WotLK they devalued older raids by giving away the previous raid tier gear through dungeon tokens and when that still proved to be too much effort for many they implemented LFR and copy-pasted mechanics on "normal" and "heroic" modes and in the process burned out and killed most of the raiding scene (there were of course other factors here as well, but this is still one of the big ones).

    So no, different difficulties for the same boss are a terrible idea. It's still the same boss, they're still the same mechanics. CM's are fine (that's what Ulduar basically had), but easy/hard mode like WoW currently has is just a very big no.

  • Lonami.2987Lonami.2987 Member ✭✭✭
    We need both easy and hard modes

    @Wandering Mist.2973 said:

    It is the nature of mmorpgs, whether you like it or not. Just take a look at this graph from WoW raiding:

    http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/1745139-Armory-Stats-Highmaul-and-Blackrock-Foundry-Blue-Tweets-Heroes-Map-Rift-Wardrobe

    Looking at this graph you can see that for a single wing of a WoW raid, there are multiple difficulties (mythic being the hardest). 70% of the WoW population completed the first wing on any difficulty. That then drops down to less than 10% of the WoW population who completed that same wing on the hardest difficulty. So if you are a games developer, do you think it makes more sense to make content exclusively for the <10% of the population, or 70% of the population? What do you think is going to keep the game running for longer?

    If raids get boring some day (And they will, since they're pretty much a waste of time after you get everything), they'll end up putting less and less work on them, until some day they just get replaced by something else. They need a healthy population to keep growing in quality and quantity.

    Catering to more people allow raids to be more epic, too. For example, imagine if the final fight of PoF had been a raid against Balthazar and Kralkatorrik. Wouldn't that be cooler than the White Mantle trash wings? Raids would be better if they actually meant anything for the world and the story, but right now they're just unmemorable side quests.

    @Ahlen.7591 said:
    GW2 should learn the lesson WoW did about having raid difficulties. Sooner rather than later. You still have Mythic for the people who want a serious challenge, heroic for casual players, normal for pugs, and LFR for ...special people or those that just want story.

    It works well and should be duplicated on any game that wants raiding to be part of its major content.

    It's just common sense. ArenaNet is being just stubborn and dumb.

    See how well that went in the past. They never learn.

    @Feanor.2358 said:
    You need to look a bit further than just mechanics. We'll keep getting things like Escort no matter what. Because there are design notions like pacing. You can't make a boss feel epic, threatening and utterly challenging if it's on the same level as every other boss. Variance in difficulty is an important tool to do that. It's not that you can't do a harder Escort or Trio. It's not that you want to put it there for players seeking lesser challenge (you have FotM for that already). It's that you want to distinguish what comes next, use the contrast to emphasise the next boss.

    Those are there to give noobs an easy LI, plain and simple. I don't have anything against them regarding their design, it's their nonexistent difficulty that annoys me.

    Everyone skipping LI-less trash like Gorseval's pres and Twisted Castle kinda reinforces my point. No one would do escort and trio if they gave no LI, because they're boring filler, there for those who can't get LIs by doing the normal bosses.

    @Gilgamesh VII.8690 said:
    I would like to see a easy and hard mode for raids, but I don't belive it's worth the Dev time to do so. At the morment.

    Why does people always assume it would be some huge work? They don't need to redesign bosses, just touch damage and timers, and that would be enough.

    @Tyson.5160 said:
    Honestly, I want the Raid community to grow, I want more players in the Raid, whether that be with multi tier difficulties like they do Fractals. I would hate for Raids to go down the path that “Stronghold” Pvp mode went...

    This can't be stated enough.

    @CedarDog.9723 said:
    Instead of making an easy mode (so that players will probably play it once for what will most likely be little to no rewards), why not just make a lore recap with an extended cutscene like they did for living season 1?

    The primary point of an easy mode is to train while having fun. Wiping and wiping is not fun. Easy mode lets new players kill the bosses after a few tries, and then they learn the mechanics and can play normal mode without needing to watch tutorials, learn guides, or get carried.

    @marelooke.9708 said:
    No, just no. The only good way to have easy/hard modes is if the mechanics are different enough otherwise you just bore your raiders (hi Blizzard, yawn) and if you do that then either you're in CM waters or you are already designing what is basically a new boss.

    You're not supposed to play easy mode unless you're new. If you already raid, you wouldn't even touch easy mode. It's not for you, just like hard mode would be for 0.1% only.

    Also, the point of easy mode is to have the same mechanics and same bosses, with tuned down difficulty so you can learn them easily.

  • Feanor.2358Feanor.2358 Member ✭✭✭✭
    Raids are fine the way they are, combining bosses of various difficulties

    @Lonami.2987 said:

    @Feanor.2358 said:
    You need to look a bit further than just mechanics. We'll keep getting things like Escort no matter what. Because there are design notions like pacing. You can't make a boss feel epic, threatening and utterly challenging if it's on the same level as every other boss. Variance in difficulty is an important tool to do that. It's not that you can't do a harder Escort or Trio. It's not that you want to put it there for players seeking lesser challenge (you have FotM for that already). It's that you want to distinguish what comes next, use the contrast to emphasise the next boss.

    Those are there to give noobs an easy LI, plain and simple. I don't have anything against them regarding their design, it's their nonexistent difficulty that annoys me.

    Everyone skipping LI-less trash like Gorseval's pres and Twisted Castle kinda reinforces my point. No one would do escort and trio if they gave no LI, because they're boring filler, there for those who can't get LIs by doing the normal bosses.

    Disregarding my arguments because they don't fit your opinion does not make them invalid. Exaggerating - too. The notion of "giving free LIs" is absurd. The "noobs" as you call them will have hard time beating even Escort, let alone Trio.

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited December 15, 2017
    Raids are fine the way they are, combining bosses of various difficulties

    @Lonami.2987 said:

    @Ahlen.7591 said:
    GW2 should learn the lesson WoW did about having raid difficulties. Sooner rather than later. You still have Mythic for the people who want a serious challenge, heroic for casual players, normal for pugs, and LFR for ...special people or those that just want story.

    It works well and should be duplicated on any game that wants raiding to be part of its major content.

    It's just common sense. ArenaNet is being just stubborn and dumb.

    See how well that went in the past. They never learn.

    The devlopers at Blizzard that implemented and made the LFR came out and said it was a big mistake. No matter how you stand on this issue, the LFR in WoW has destroyed the raiding culture there. It basically made all raid content a simple loot kitten to fuel the never ending loot grind in that game.

    @Lonami.2987 said:

    @Feanor.2358 said:
    You need to look a bit further than just mechanics. We'll keep getting things like Escort no matter what. Because there are design notions like pacing. You can't make a boss feel epic, threatening and utterly challenging if it's on the same level as every other boss. Variance in difficulty is an important tool to do that. It's not that you can't do a harder Escort or Trio. It's not that you want to put it there for players seeking lesser challenge (you have FotM for that already). It's that you want to distinguish what comes next, use the contrast to emphasise the next boss.

    Those are there to give noobs an easy LI, plain and simple. I don't have anything against them regarding their design, it's their nonexistent difficulty that annoys me.

    Everyone skipping LI-less trash like Gorseval's pres and Twisted Castle kinda reinforces my point. No one would do escort and trio if they gave no LI, because they're boring filler, there for those who can't get LIs by doing the normal bosses.

    The "filler" fights are there to offer different fights and not always the same. A goal that arenanet is focused on with every raid boss and encounter. Nothing wrong with having different difficult fights too.

    @Lonami.2987 said:

    @Gilgamesh VII.8690 said:
    I would like to see a easy and hard mode for raids, but I don't belive it's worth the Dev time to do so. At the morment.

    Why does people always assume it would be some huge work? They don't need to redesign bosses, just touch damage and timers, and that would be enough.

    Ah yes, crank up the boss healthbar to make them more spungie and shorten the timer to create artificial pressure. None of that changes the fights except make them more stressful. Unfortunately making fights harder while keeping them interesting is actually challenging.

    @Lonami.2987 said:

    @CedarDog.9723 said:
    Instead of making an easy mode (so that players will probably play it once for what will most likely be little to no rewards), why not just make a lore recap with an extended cutscene like they did for living season 1?

    The primary point of an easy mode is to train while having fun. Wiping and wiping is not fun. Easy mode lets new players kill the bosses after a few tries, and then they learn the mechanics and can play normal mode without needing to watch tutorials, learn guides, or get carried.

    There it is, we want easy mode so we don't have to wipe. Failure is an integral part of every learning process. To bad so many people have forgotten that in this day and age.

    @Lonami.2987 said:

    @marelooke.9708 said:
    No, just no. The only good way to have easy/hard modes is if the mechanics are different enough otherwise you just bore your raiders (hi Blizzard, yawn) and if you do that then either you're in CM waters or you are already designing what is basically a new boss.

    You're not supposed to play easy mode unless you're new. If you already raid, you wouldn't even touch easy mode. It's not for you, just like hard mode would be for 0.1% only.

    Also, the point of easy mode is to have the same mechanics and same bosses, with tuned down difficulty so you can learn them easily.

    How do you turn down instant kill mechanics or wipe mechanics? Those are the ones that make bosses usually difficult. So now they need to be changed to do damage instead which in turn takes work. Work that would delay the next raid wing with such a small team.

    But we are talking in circles. All of these things have been mentioned hundreds of times from both sides. The one side usually represented by raiders who have experience with the content, and the other side by often forum warriors who have 0 clue what they are talking about.

  • STIHL.2489STIHL.2489 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Cyninja.2954 said:
    But we are talking in circles. All of these things have been mentioned hundreds of times from both sides. The one side usually represented by raiders who have experience with the content, and the other side by often forum warriors who have 0 clue what they are talking about.

    I have done raids since the 90's. I have a clue what I am talking about. Thanks for the wrong assumptions.

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭
    Raids are fine the way they are, combining bosses of various difficulties

    @STIHL.2489 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:
    But we are talking in circles. All of these things have been mentioned hundreds of times from both sides. The one side usually represented by raiders who have experience with the content, and the other side by often forum warriors who have 0 clue what they are talking about.

    I have done raids since the 90's. I have a clue what I am talking about. Thanks for the wrong assumptions.

    So have I, I was talking about raids in GW2.

  • STIHL.2489STIHL.2489 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited December 15, 2017

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @STIHL.2489 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:
    But we are talking in circles. All of these things have been mentioned hundreds of times from both sides. The one side usually represented by raiders who have experience with the content, and the other side by often forum warriors who have 0 clue what they are talking about.

    I have done raids since the 90's. I have a clue what I am talking about. Thanks for the wrong assumptions.

    So have I, I was talking about raids in GW2.

    You make it sound like they are somehow different then raids in TERA for example. I didn't see anything unique or special about GW2 raids, that make something different them what we have done to death many times before. Some of us are simply burned out from the Drama and BS, have our small circle of people, and don't see the magical need for Double Group Dungeons, Which is really all a raid in this game.. like so many others.. just a double group dungeon encounter.. meh. Raids are common, generic content, nothing special about them, and truth be told, GW2 would have been better off trying to find a new approach, to test the norm, then fall back on such a bland system, its a step back for the game as a whole.. next will you beg them for Kill Stealing.. to make the game more challenging?

  • ZhouX.8742ZhouX.8742 Member ✭✭✭
    edited December 15, 2017

    It would be nice to have easy and hard mode , similar to mythic and heroic in WoW. I think extra encounter objectives would help spice it up but make them extremely hard vs heroic mode encounter objectives throughout the fight whilst also increasing damage and health on the monsters themselves. Something like this would be more interesting. I'm trying to think of ways to help increase raid difficulty without simply increasing health and damage so you're not essentially just "dragging the fight out" but actually adding in more fight mechanics between the 2 game modes to offer a more difficult experience , not just a longer experience. But doesn't CM do this already or am I mistaken?

    "Raids are neither viable nor profitable being exclusive content. We need more raiders."

    No, I hate to say it but the game needs a subscription based system if you want it to have funds to be able to maintain consistent raid content, balance, dungeon overhauls (which ultimately brings back raiders and general players overall).

    Look, PvP and WvW are both for the most part dying game modes. They lack a 3rd of their population they had even 2 years ago for many reasons outside of PvE and raiding but in a way, this makes all the game modes connected because they all contribute money to Anet to be able to make new areas, expansions, etc.... Hurting even one game mode indirectly hurts the others by killing those modes off in favor of another.

    It's clear Anet is more focused on PvE , it has pretty much centralized it at this point with very little even going into WvW and PvP , stuff happens in those game modes but it's more of a "here, we did this , now we'll have another minor balance patch in 6 months" type situation.

    This is why WoW has the funds to continually pump out expansions and more importantly raid instances and dungeon instances for people to run. This alone not only solves the issue of never getting money from both hardcore and casual but also attracts more people with new content, etc.

    I know people hate the idea of subscription models, but arguably the 2 top MMO's currently utilize it in WoW and Final Fantasy. It works, and it allows companies to pump out content more regularly. At the cost of a monthly fee, comes a 5x maybe 10x increase in content return, more explorable areas, more raids, possibly a dungeon overhaul and decently timed balance changes.

    Unfortunately, at this point in the game, it is such an old game, so many have quit due to ignorant balance, lack of updates in general and that I think even introducing a subscription model is too late at this point, but it would atleast help them pick back up some pace and have more consistent updates. This alone might bring back players to assist with the issues not only in PvE content but PvP/WvW as well.

  • STIHL.2489STIHL.2489 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited December 15, 2017

    @ZhouX.8742 said:

    "Raids are neither viable nor profitable being exclusive content. We need more raiders."

    No, I hate to say it but the game needs a subscription based system if you want it to have funds to be able to maintain consistent raid content, balance, dungeon overhauls (which ultimately brings back raiders and general players overall).

    Selling content like Dungeons, Raids, and Story, on their own would also be a solution, as it would not only denote how profitable these modes are, the mechanic is already in the game, and they already do this (I still need to buy LW3)

    This, what sells is what gets made, profit drives content, as opposed to having a big pot of money and needing to basically guess what to do next.

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited December 15, 2017
    Raids are fine the way they are, combining bosses of various difficulties

    @STIHL.2489 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @STIHL.2489 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:
    But we are talking in circles. All of these things have been mentioned hundreds of times from both sides. The one side usually represented by raiders who have experience with the content, and the other side by often forum warriors who have 0 clue what they are talking about.

    I have done raids since the 90's. I have a clue what I am talking about. Thanks for the wrong assumptions.

    So have I, I was talking about raids in GW2.

    You make it sound like they are somehow different then raids in TERA for example. I didn't see anything unique or special about GW2 raids, that make something different them what we have done to death many times before. Some of us are simply burned out from the Drama and BS, have our small circle of people, and don't see the magical need for Double Group Dungeons, Which is really all a raid in this game.. like so many others.. just a double group dungeon encounter.. meh. Raids are common, generic content, nothing special about them, and truth be told, GW2 would have been better off trying to find a new approach, to test the norm, then fall back on such a bland system, its a step back for the game as a whole.. next will you beg them for Kill Stealing.. to make the game more challenging?

    I was referring to the fact that that a majority of complainers have no raid experience in this game, you included.

    Since one of the main arguments is accessibility it makes sense that people who have gone down this road and actually have experience with the content have a less scewed view on how accessible it is.

    Raids from other games make little sense to compare since especially gear balance wise those games and how they balance raids work way differently.

    Many forums posters have very strong preconceptions about raids, even though they have 0 experience with them.

    The assumption that GW2 would have been better off without them is hard to make as a non developer since you don't have actual numbers on any in game statistics or how much additional players raids might have pulled.

    Also no, I never mentioned kill stealing, but it;s nice that you are trying to put words in my mouth.

  • We need both easy and hard modes

    @Lonami.2987 said:

    @Wandering Mist.2973 said:

    It is the nature of mmorpgs, whether you like it or not. Just take a look at this graph from WoW raiding:

    http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/1745139-Armory-Stats-Highmaul-and-Blackrock-Foundry-Blue-Tweets-Heroes-Map-Rift-Wardrobe

    Looking at this graph you can see that for a single wing of a WoW raid, there are multiple difficulties (mythic being the hardest). 70% of the WoW population completed the first wing on any difficulty. That then drops down to less than 10% of the WoW population who completed that same wing on the hardest difficulty. So if you are a games developer, do you think it makes more sense to make content exclusively for the <10% of the population, or 70% of the population? What do you think is going to keep the game running for longer?

    If raids get boring some day (And they will, since they're pretty much a waste of time after you get everything), they'll end up putting less and less work on them, until some day they just get replaced by something else. They need a healthy population to keep growing in quality and quantity.

    Catering to more people allow raids to be more epic, too. For example, imagine if the final fight of PoF had been a raid against Balthazar and Kralkatorrik. Wouldn't that be cooler than the White Mantle trash wings? Raids would be better if they actually meant anything for the world and the story, but right now they're just unmemorable side quests.

    @Ahlen.7591 said:
    GW2 should learn the lesson WoW did about having raid difficulties. Sooner rather than later. You still have Mythic for the people who want a serious challenge, heroic for casual players, normal for pugs, and LFR for ...special people or those that just want story.

    It works well and should be duplicated on any game that wants raiding to be part of its major content.

    It's just common sense. ArenaNet is being just stubborn and dumb.

    See how well that went in the past. They never learn.

    @Feanor.2358 said:
    You need to look a bit further than just mechanics. We'll keep getting things like Escort no matter what. Because there are design notions like pacing. You can't make a boss feel epic, threatening and utterly challenging if it's on the same level as every other boss. Variance in difficulty is an important tool to do that. It's not that you can't do a harder Escort or Trio. It's not that you want to put it there for players seeking lesser challenge (you have FotM for that already). It's that you want to distinguish what comes next, use the contrast to emphasise the next boss.

    Those are there to give noobs an easy LI, plain and simple. I don't have anything against them regarding their design, it's their nonexistent difficulty that annoys me.

    Everyone skipping LI-less trash like Gorseval's pres and Twisted Castle kinda reinforces my point. No one would do escort and trio if they gave no LI, because they're boring filler, there for those who can't get LIs by doing the normal bosses.

    @Gilgamesh VII.8690 said:
    I would like to see a easy and hard mode for raids, but I don't belive it's worth the Dev time to do so. At the morment.

    Why does people always assume it would be some huge work? They don't need to redesign bosses, just touch damage and timers, and that would be enough.

    @Tyson.5160 said:
    Honestly, I want the Raid community to grow, I want more players in the Raid, whether that be with multi tier difficulties like they do Fractals. I would hate for Raids to go down the path that “Stronghold” Pvp mode went...

    This can't be stated enough.

    @CedarDog.9723 said:
    Instead of making an easy mode (so that players will probably play it once for what will most likely be little to no rewards), why not just make a lore recap with an extended cutscene like they did for living season 1?

    The primary point of an easy mode is to train while having fun. Wiping and wiping is not fun. Easy mode lets new players kill the bosses after a few tries, and then they learn the mechanics and can play normal mode without needing to watch tutorials, learn guides, or get carried.

    @marelooke.9708 said:
    No, just no. The only good way to have easy/hard modes is if the mechanics are different enough otherwise you just bore your raiders (hi Blizzard, yawn) and if you do that then either you're in CM waters or you are already designing what is basically a new boss.

    You're not supposed to play easy mode unless you're new. If you already raid, you wouldn't even touch easy mode. It's not for you, just like hard mode would be for 0.1% only.

    Also, the point of easy mode is to have the same mechanics and same bosses, with tuned down difficulty so you can learn them easily.

    Why do people assume that it's a copy and paste job or just a few number changes, only Anet know how long it will take.

    It also what kind of easy mode people want like:

    *Remove enrage timer so people can play safer builds without the time pressure and DPS check.

    *reduced damage numbers to give a bit more room for error.

    *remove or reduce some mechanics to lessen the pressure. Example only needing 3 people to be on greens at VG.

    If people what the removed timer that would take less time but if people what less or removed mechanics then thar will take longer to develop, test and debug.

    Another problem is rewards, lest say Anet decided to not put rewards in as it is easy mode, how long till easy mode dies out because it's not rewarding like story dungeons. Then let's say they put LI as a reward in easy mode how many people will run normal if they can get the same rewards as in easy.

    There's far more things to think about then just assuming it's a easy job for them, as there are other questions and what ifs that arise adding content and modes.

    I don't mind if they put Dev time into it as it would be a plus for people who would use it as training runs, but then they gotta think was it worth it if no one is playing easy mode a month later or and forum post saying easy mode is not rewarding enough.

  • STIHL.2489STIHL.2489 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited December 15, 2017

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @STIHL.2489 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @STIHL.2489 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:
    But we are talking in circles. All of these things have been mentioned hundreds of times from both sides. The one side usually represented by raiders who have experience with the content, and the other side by often forum warriors who have 0 clue what they are talking about.

    I have done raids since the 90's. I have a clue what I am talking about. Thanks for the wrong assumptions.

    So have I, I was talking about raids in GW2.

    You make it sound like they are somehow different then raids in TERA for example. I didn't see anything unique or special about GW2 raids, that make something different them what we have done to death many times before. Some of us are simply burned out from the Drama and BS, have our small circle of people, and don't see the magical need for Double Group Dungeons, Which is really all a raid in this game.. like so many others.. just a double group dungeon encounter.. meh. Raids are common, generic content, nothing special about them, and truth be told, GW2 would have been better off trying to find a new approach, to test the norm, then fall back on such a bland system, its a step back for the game as a whole.. next will you beg them for Kill Stealing.. to make the game more challenging?

    I was referring to the fact that that a majority of complainers have no raid experience in this game, you included.

    You wrong me.. I have raid experience in GW2.. ta da.. how else do you think I know that they are no better then any other double group dungeons I have done in other games, I was part of that 20%, that tried them.. as I was more then willing to give Anet the benefit of the doubt maybe they had something special, and really, how can you know for sure if you don't like something if you never tried it?

    You really ought to keep your wrong assumptions to yourself, or better yet.. stop making them.

  • Feanor.2358Feanor.2358 Member ✭✭✭✭
    Raids are fine the way they are, combining bosses of various difficulties

    @STIHL.2489 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @STIHL.2489 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:
    But we are talking in circles. All of these things have been mentioned hundreds of times from both sides. The one side usually represented by raiders who have experience with the content, and the other side by often forum warriors who have 0 clue what they are talking about.

    I have done raids since the 90's. I have a clue what I am talking about. Thanks for the wrong assumptions.

    So have I, I was talking about raids in GW2.

    You make it sound like they are somehow different then raids in TERA for example. I didn't see anything unique or special about GW2 raids, that make something different them what we have done to death many times before. Some of us are simply burned out from the Drama and BS, have our small circle of people, and don't see the magical need for Double Group Dungeons, Which is really all a raid in this game.. like so many others.. just a double group dungeon encounter.. meh. Raids are common, generic content, nothing special about them, and truth be told, GW2 would have been better off trying to find a new approach, to test the norm, then fall back on such a bland system, its a step back for the game as a whole.. next will you beg them for Kill Stealing.. to make the game more challenging?

    I beg to differ. Raids in GW2 aren't generic. Dungeons are indeed.

  • STIHL.2489STIHL.2489 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Feanor.2358 said:

    @STIHL.2489 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @STIHL.2489 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:
    But we are talking in circles. All of these things have been mentioned hundreds of times from both sides. The one side usually represented by raiders who have experience with the content, and the other side by often forum warriors who have 0 clue what they are talking about.

    I have done raids since the 90's. I have a clue what I am talking about. Thanks for the wrong assumptions.

    So have I, I was talking about raids in GW2.

    You make it sound like they are somehow different then raids in TERA for example. I didn't see anything unique or special about GW2 raids, that make something different them what we have done to death many times before. Some of us are simply burned out from the Drama and BS, have our small circle of people, and don't see the magical need for Double Group Dungeons, Which is really all a raid in this game.. like so many others.. just a double group dungeon encounter.. meh. Raids are common, generic content, nothing special about them, and truth be told, GW2 would have been better off trying to find a new approach, to test the norm, then fall back on such a bland system, its a step back for the game as a whole.. next will you beg them for Kill Stealing.. to make the game more challenging?

    I beg to differ. Raids in GW2 aren't generic. Dungeons are indeed.

    Ok.. if you beg to differ.. go for it.. Explain in detail how the Mechanics in GW2 Raids are intrinsically different then say TERAs Raids.

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited December 15, 2017
    Raids are fine the way they are, combining bosses of various difficulties

    @STIHL.2489 said:

    @Feanor.2358 said:

    @STIHL.2489 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @STIHL.2489 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:
    But we are talking in circles. All of these things have been mentioned hundreds of times from both sides. The one side usually represented by raiders who have experience with the content, and the other side by often forum warriors who have 0 clue what they are talking about.

    I have done raids since the 90's. I have a clue what I am talking about. Thanks for the wrong assumptions.

    So have I, I was talking about raids in GW2.

    You make it sound like they are somehow different then raids in TERA for example. I didn't see anything unique or special about GW2 raids, that make something different them what we have done to death many times before. Some of us are simply burned out from the Drama and BS, have our small circle of people, and don't see the magical need for Double Group Dungeons, Which is really all a raid in this game.. like so many others.. just a double group dungeon encounter.. meh. Raids are common, generic content, nothing special about them, and truth be told, GW2 would have been better off trying to find a new approach, to test the norm, then fall back on such a bland system, its a step back for the game as a whole.. next will you beg them for Kill Stealing.. to make the game more challenging?

    I beg to differ. Raids in GW2 aren't generic. Dungeons are indeed.

    Ok.. if you beg to differ.. go for it.. Explain in detail how the Mechanics in GW2 Raids are intrinsically different then say TERAs Raids.

    You mean besides the fact that TERAs was:

    • raids are 30-man
    • another raid which was basically an extended dungeon for 10-man
    • the game is absolutely focused on constant gear progression
    • uses a typical tank and spank model
    • has level progression with expansions which devalues all previous content

    Honestly, it doesn't take much googling for even an inexperienced non-TERA player to find enough differences in both raid design and game design to realize that both system are fundamentally different. But I'll bite, please explain how GW2 and TERA raids are similar because you seem to be the TERA expert here with a ton of GW2 raiding experience.

  • STIHL.2489STIHL.2489 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited December 15, 2017

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @STIHL.2489 said:

    @Feanor.2358 said:

    @STIHL.2489 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @STIHL.2489 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:
    But we are talking in circles. All of these things have been mentioned hundreds of times from both sides. The one side usually represented by raiders who have experience with the content, and the other side by often forum warriors who have 0 clue what they are talking about.

    I have done raids since the 90's. I have a clue what I am talking about. Thanks for the wrong assumptions.

    So have I, I was talking about raids in GW2.

    You make it sound like they are somehow different then raids in TERA for example. I didn't see anything unique or special about GW2 raids, that make something different them what we have done to death many times before. Some of us are simply burned out from the Drama and BS, have our small circle of people, and don't see the magical need for Double Group Dungeons, Which is really all a raid in this game.. like so many others.. just a double group dungeon encounter.. meh. Raids are common, generic content, nothing special about them, and truth be told, GW2 would have been better off trying to find a new approach, to test the norm, then fall back on such a bland system, its a step back for the game as a whole.. next will you beg them for Kill Stealing.. to make the game more challenging?

    I beg to differ. Raids in GW2 aren't generic. Dungeons are indeed.

    Ok.. if you beg to differ.. go for it.. Explain in detail how the Mechanics in GW2 Raids are intrinsically different then say TERAs Raids.

    You mean besides the fact that TERAs was:

    • raids are 30-man
    • another raid which was basically an extended dungeon for 10-man
    • the game is absolutely focused on constant gear progression
    • uses a typical tank and spank model
    • has level progression with expansions which devalues all previous content

    Honestly, it doesn't take much googling for even an inexperienced non-TERA player to find enough differences in both raid design and game design to realize that both system are fundamentally different. But I'll bite, please explain how GW2 and TERA raids are similar because you seem to be the TERA expert here with a ton of GW2 raiding experience.

    That is why I asked for Mechanics of the Raid itself, not the Core Game. We are all well aware that GW2 and TERA, have very different game designs, that is also a major point of objection to Raids being added to GW2 in the first place, as they do not mend with the game's core makeup design. That however is it's own discussion. So, I am going to ignore all irrelevant stuff and get to the ONE thing you said that involved the actual Raid Mechanic.

    • uses typical tank and spank model.

    Here is your wake up call, VG is a typical Tank and Spank model.

    So again.. what is intrinsically mechanically different about the raids in TERA vs GW2.. maybe now from someone that knows raids in both games?

    Or maybe, we can go with a comparison with a different game, we don't have to use TERA. Maybe Wildstar? FFXIV? EQ2, if you are a bit old school?

    In the end.. GW2 Raids are not uniquely different from raids in other games, they are cliche and generic. Everything the core game was not.

  • Astralporing.1957Astralporing.1957 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited December 15, 2017
    We need an easy mode, but not a hard mode

    @Cyninja.2954 said:
    The devlopers at Blizzard that implemented and made the LFR came out and said it was a big mistake.

    No. One developer said he didn't like the way it turned out, but he didn't exactly speak against the general idea. Just the specific implementation.
    Also, obviously, his bosses didn't share his view, because LFR is still there.

    @Cyninja.2954 said:
    How do you turn down instant kill mechanics or wipe mechanics? Those are the ones that make bosses usually difficult.

    Actually, no, they are usually not the reasons for wipes. It's the secondary mechanics and pressure that usually start a failure chain reaction.

    For example, i haven't seen many wipes to greens on VG that weren't caused by a green runner being teleported away first, or by seeker mismanagement. Gorse World Eater kills because people lost too much dps due to other mechanics first. Sabetha flamewall does sometimes kill people, but is only rarely a cause of a full wipe. And so on.

    The whole point of a social game is to play with the people you want to play with, not be forced to play with the people you don't.

  • STIHL.2489STIHL.2489 Member ✭✭✭✭

    I only chimed because someone said that people objecting to raids had no experience, I hope this matter is settled.

    Good day

  • Astralporing.1957Astralporing.1957 Member ✭✭✭✭
    We need an easy mode, but not a hard mode

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @STIHL.2489 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:
    But we are talking in circles. All of these things have been mentioned hundreds of times from both sides. The one side usually represented by raiders who have experience with the content, and the other side by often forum warriors who have 0 clue what they are talking about.

    I have done raids since the 90's. I have a clue what I am talking about. Thanks for the wrong assumptions.

    So have I, I was talking about raids in GW2.

    Done those as well. Now working for a second armor set. I don't think i lack experience in that regard at all. And while all that in-game experience changed my view on some of the minor points, it didn't change anything major. Not that i expected it would - raids in this game are not all that different or unique.

    The whole point of a social game is to play with the people you want to play with, not be forced to play with the people you don't.

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited December 15, 2017
    Raids are fine the way they are, combining bosses of various difficulties

    @STIHL.2489 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @STIHL.2489 said:

    @Feanor.2358 said:

    @STIHL.2489 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @STIHL.2489 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:
    But we are talking in circles. All of these things have been mentioned hundreds of times from both sides. The one side usually represented by raiders who have experience with the content, and the other side by often forum warriors who have 0 clue what they are talking about.

    I have done raids since the 90's. I have a clue what I am talking about. Thanks for the wrong assumptions.

    So have I, I was talking about raids in GW2.

    You make it sound like they are somehow different then raids in TERA for example. I didn't see anything unique or special about GW2 raids, that make something different them what we have done to death many times before. Some of us are simply burned out from the Drama and BS, have our small circle of people, and don't see the magical need for Double Group Dungeons, Which is really all a raid in this game.. like so many others.. just a double group dungeon encounter.. meh. Raids are common, generic content, nothing special about them, and truth be told, GW2 would have been better off trying to find a new approach, to test the norm, then fall back on such a bland system, its a step back for the game as a whole.. next will you beg them for Kill Stealing.. to make the game more challenging?

    I beg to differ. Raids in GW2 aren't generic. Dungeons are indeed.

    Ok.. if you beg to differ.. go for it.. Explain in detail how the Mechanics in GW2 Raids are intrinsically different then say TERAs Raids.

    You mean besides the fact that TERAs was:

    • raids are 30-man
    • another raid which was basically an extended dungeon for 10-man
    • the game is absolutely focused on constant gear progression
    • uses a typical tank and spank model
    • has level progression with expansions which devalues all previous content

    Honestly, it doesn't take much googling for even an inexperienced non-TERA player to find enough differences in both raid design and game design to realize that both system are fundamentally different. But I'll bite, please explain how GW2 and TERA raids are similar because you seem to be the TERA expert here with a ton of GW2 raiding experience.

    That is why I asked for Mechanics of the Raid itself, not the Core Game. We are all well aware that GW2 and TERA, have very different game designs, that is also a major point of objection to Raids being added to GW2 in the first place, as they do not mend with the game's core makeup design. That however is it's own discussion. So, I am going to ignore all irrelevant stuff and get to the ONE thing you said that involved the actual Raid Mechanic.

    • uses typical tank and spank model.

    Here is your wake up call, VG is a typical Tank and Spank model.

    So again.. what is intrinsically mechanically different about the raids in TERA vs GW2.. maybe now from someone that knows raids in both games?

    Or maybe, we can go with a comparison with a different game, we don't have to use TERA. Maybe Wildstar? FFXIV? EQ2, if you are a bit old school?

    In the end.. GW2 Raids are not uniquely different from raids in other games, they are cliche and generic. Everything the core game was not.

    You are the one claiming they are similar, you have not yet shown this to be the case. I've raided in DAoC, WoW, Aion and GW2. To me the GW2 raids are quite unique. On top of that the 2 games you are referring to have very different raid sizes as well as game mechanics. You're the one who has to prove they are similar.

    Also VG is 1 fight of by now 17. Yes, there is tank and spank fights in GW2 raids, now show that VG is similar to all 16 other raid fights here or show that all the others are tank and spank (besides all the other details but let's start with tank and spank only).

  • Genesis.5169Genesis.5169 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited December 15, 2017
    Raids are fine the way they are, combining bosses of various difficulties

    No people just need to sit down and deal with wipes like people do in every other mmo instead of cry a pool of salt that would make the dead sea blush. Seriously the retention rate for people in groups that wipe is insane. Back when i played FF14, i was in a minstrals ballad thoradins reign learning/clear party., and most of them stayed for over 4hours, same with sophia extreme, nidhogg, a11s/a12s (never got there a12s with pug tho that was guild only runs later on). Here if we got a wipe on cairn or something its common for 2-4 leaving with out notice.

    There's none of that here i think its due to the theme park nature of this game maybe if they don't get there stuff quickly in a raid they will just leave and do something else, and likely never come back due to the fact they don't have to and the last time they were there they got there kitten kicked in. I say anet need to add First time bonuses for the entire raid group to help retention rates on wipes because getting tokens not cutting it.

    For those on the forums who advocate for the removal of duo queues in Spvp, realize your actions over the past 7 years has destroyed gw2 Spvp and thinking doing the same thing again is a good idea after several years of it not working crazy. Get better at pvp.

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited December 15, 2017
    Raids are fine the way they are, combining bosses of various difficulties

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:
    The devlopers at Blizzard that implemented and made the LFR came out and said it was a big mistake.

    No. One developer said he didn't like the way it turned out, but he didn't exactly speak against the general idea. Just the specific implementation.
    Also, obviously, his bosses didn't share his view, because LFR is still there.

    @Cyninja.2954 said:
    How do you turn down instant kill mechanics or wipe mechanics? Those are the ones that make bosses usually difficult.

    Actually, no, they are usually not the reasons for wipes. It's the secondary mechanics and pressure that usually start a failure chain reaction.

    For example, i haven't seen many wipes to greens on VG that weren't caused by a green runner being teleported away first, or by seeker mismanagement. Gorse World Eater kills because people lost too much dps due to other mechanics first. Sabetha flamewall does sometimes kill people, but is only rarely a cause of a full wipe. And so on.

    Gorse world eater kills people because of lack of damage. Are you telling me that an inexperienced group will automatically produce enough damage to skip it?

    Sloths poison going off in the group OR not proper mushroom eating is a guaranteed wipe. No mechanical change will improve that.

    KC has enough instant wipe mechanics to not even have to name them all. None of them damage based.

    Xera not clearing shards or not ccing her defiance bar as well as wrong bubble timing will cause a wipe.

    Cairn with aoe swipe is certain doom for players that get knocked off the platform.

    MO will wipe the raid with burning platforms and spears.

    Deimos, yeah not even going to get into that fight and wing 5 is not even worth mentioning.

    So I respectfully disagree that most instant death mechanics are not responsible. Quite a few are in fact and no amount of damage toning down will change those.

  • STIHL.2489STIHL.2489 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @STIHL.2489 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @STIHL.2489 said:

    @Feanor.2358 said:

    @STIHL.2489 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @STIHL.2489 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:
    But we are talking in circles. All of these things have been mentioned hundreds of times from both sides. The one side usually represented by raiders who have experience with the content, and the other side by often forum warriors who have 0 clue what they are talking about.

    I have done raids since the 90's. I have a clue what I am talking about. Thanks for the wrong assumptions.

    So have I, I was talking about raids in GW2.

    You make it sound like they are somehow different then raids in TERA for example. I didn't see anything unique or special about GW2 raids, that make something different them what we have done to death many times before. Some of us are simply burned out from the Drama and BS, have our small circle of people, and don't see the magical need for Double Group Dungeons, Which is really all a raid in this game.. like so many others.. just a double group dungeon encounter.. meh. Raids are common, generic content, nothing special about them, and truth be told, GW2 would have been better off trying to find a new approach, to test the norm, then fall back on such a bland system, its a step back for the game as a whole.. next will you beg them for Kill Stealing.. to make the game more challenging?

    I beg to differ. Raids in GW2 aren't generic. Dungeons are indeed.

    Ok.. if you beg to differ.. go for it.. Explain in detail how the Mechanics in GW2 Raids are intrinsically different then say TERAs Raids.

    You mean besides the fact that TERAs was:

    • raids are 30-man
    • another raid which was basically an extended dungeon for 10-man
    • the game is absolutely focused on constant gear progression
    • uses a typical tank and spank model
    • has level progression with expansions which devalues all previous content

    Honestly, it doesn't take much googling for even an inexperienced non-TERA player to find enough differences in both raid design and game design to realize that both system are fundamentally different. But I'll bite, please explain how GW2 and TERA raids are similar because you seem to be the TERA expert here with a ton of GW2 raiding experience.

    That is why I asked for Mechanics of the Raid itself, not the Core Game. We are all well aware that GW2 and TERA, have very different game designs, that is also a major point of objection to Raids being added to GW2 in the first place, as they do not mend with the game's core makeup design. That however is it's own discussion. So, I am going to ignore all irrelevant stuff and get to the ONE thing you said that involved the actual Raid Mechanic.

    • uses typical tank and spank model.

    Here is your wake up call, VG is a typical Tank and Spank model.

    So again.. what is intrinsically mechanically different about the raids in TERA vs GW2.. maybe now from someone that knows raids in both games?

    Or maybe, we can go with a comparison with a different game, we don't have to use TERA. Maybe Wildstar? FFXIV? EQ2, if you are a bit old school?

    In the end.. GW2 Raids are not uniquely different from raids in other games, they are cliche and generic. Everything the core game was not.

    You are the one claiming they are similar, you have not yet shown this to be the case. I've raided in DAoC, WoW, Aion and GW2. To me the GW2 raids are quite unique. On top of that the 2 games you are referring to have very different raid sizes as well as game mechanics. You're the one who has to prove they are similar.

    Also VG is 1 fight of by now 17. Yes, there is tank and spank fights in GW2 raids, now show that VG is similar to all 16 other raid fights here or show that all the others are tank and spank (besides all the other details but let's start with tank and spank only).

    I shall do no such thing, nor do I have to, Since my point was cemented when we both agreed that VG is a Generic Tank and Spank, it's now on you to prove Raids in this game are somehow special and offer a unique feel from other games.

    Good Luck.

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭
    Raids are fine the way they are, combining bosses of various difficulties

    @STIHL.2489 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @STIHL.2489 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @STIHL.2489 said:

    @Feanor.2358 said:

    @STIHL.2489 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @STIHL.2489 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:
    But we are talking in circles. All of these things have been mentioned hundreds of times from both sides. The one side usually represented by raiders who have experience with the content, and the other side by often forum warriors who have 0 clue what they are talking about.

    I have done raids since the 90's. I have a clue what I am talking about. Thanks for the wrong assumptions.

    So have I, I was talking about raids in GW2.

    You make it sound like they are somehow different then raids in TERA for example. I didn't see anything unique or special about GW2 raids, that make something different them what we have done to death many times before. Some of us are simply burned out from the Drama and BS, have our small circle of people, and don't see the magical need for Double Group Dungeons, Which is really all a raid in this game.. like so many others.. just a double group dungeon encounter.. meh. Raids are common, generic content, nothing special about them, and truth be told, GW2 would have been better off trying to find a new approach, to test the norm, then fall back on such a bland system, its a step back for the game as a whole.. next will you beg them for Kill Stealing.. to make the game more challenging?

    I beg to differ. Raids in GW2 aren't generic. Dungeons are indeed.

    Ok.. if you beg to differ.. go for it.. Explain in detail how the Mechanics in GW2 Raids are intrinsically different then say TERAs Raids.

    You mean besides the fact that TERAs was:

    • raids are 30-man
    • another raid which was basically an extended dungeon for 10-man
    • the game is absolutely focused on constant gear progression
    • uses a typical tank and spank model
    • has level progression with expansions which devalues all previous content

    Honestly, it doesn't take much googling for even an inexperienced non-TERA player to find enough differences in both raid design and game design to realize that both system are fundamentally different. But I'll bite, please explain how GW2 and TERA raids are similar because you seem to be the TERA expert here with a ton of GW2 raiding experience.

    That is why I asked for Mechanics of the Raid itself, not the Core Game. We are all well aware that GW2 and TERA, have very different game designs, that is also a major point of objection to Raids being added to GW2 in the first place, as they do not mend with the game's core makeup design. That however is it's own discussion. So, I am going to ignore all irrelevant stuff and get to the ONE thing you said that involved the actual Raid Mechanic.

    • uses typical tank and spank model.

    Here is your wake up call, VG is a typical Tank and Spank model.

    So again.. what is intrinsically mechanically different about the raids in TERA vs GW2.. maybe now from someone that knows raids in both games?

    Or maybe, we can go with a comparison with a different game, we don't have to use TERA. Maybe Wildstar? FFXIV? EQ2, if you are a bit old school?

    In the end.. GW2 Raids are not uniquely different from raids in other games, they are cliche and generic. Everything the core game was not.

    You are the one claiming they are similar, you have not yet shown this to be the case. I've raided in DAoC, WoW, Aion and GW2. To me the GW2 raids are quite unique. On top of that the 2 games you are referring to have very different raid sizes as well as game mechanics. You're the one who has to prove they are similar.

    Also VG is 1 fight of by now 17. Yes, there is tank and spank fights in GW2 raids, now show that VG is similar to all 16 other raid fights here or show that all the others are tank and spank (besides all the other details but let's start with tank and spank only).

    I shall do no such thing, nor do I have to, Since my point was cemented when we both agreed that VG is a Generic Tank and Spank, it's now on you to prove Raids in this game are somehow special and offer a unique feel from other games.

    Good Luck.

    So you are agreeing that your entire argument is based on 1 fight. Works for me.