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Do raids need easy/normal/hard difficulty mode? [merged]

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  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited December 17, 2017
    Raids are fine the way they are, combining bosses of various difficulties

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:
    How does this make it better compared to multiple ascended sets as far as actual cost and functionality? While inventory management is an issue, I doubt it's a bigger issue than gold cost or ease of use as far as changing specs.

    If i don't have the space for multiple sets of armor, i don't have the space. Period. In this case, an ability to change the stats becomes invaluable. And no, i won't be changing stats in MF and rebuying the runes everytime i switch between different PvE specs, or between PvE and WvW. I'd go bankrupt within a month (or faster).

    You are cherry picking your complaints and intentionally ignoring weaknesses of the legendary system because it suits your argument to ignore them.

    The amount of gold you save on getting 2-3 sets of ascended armor instead of 1 legendary set could have been invested into:

    • more bags
    • bigger bags
    • more bank space

    and you'd still have some left over.

    Simply put:

    • legendary armor brings with it an inventory space benefit at the cost of ease of use and resource price
    • legendary weapons are even worse by far with not swaping of sigils and tremendous higher costs compared to ascended
    • trinkets are vastly more expensive as legendary (even more than weapons) compared to ascended trinkets with no other drawbacks

    Until there is no proper build template manager, this will not change. Once we get an easy way to swap stats or entire builds, only then will legendary gear be an actual benefit.

  • Shard.4791Shard.4791 Member ✭✭✭
    Raids are fine the way they are, combining bosses of various difficulties

    @Oldirtbeard.9834 said:
    I find it amusing that Raiders assume that players would clear the Easy Mode once and never go back. How do you explain the World Boss train, how do you explain people still doing Bounties, the HoT Metas, Silver Wastes?

    Just give Raid Finder Raids the same Open World rewards you drop for Bounties, or Silver Wastes; you know people would consistently farm them too on weekly reset.

    Of course people are going to do it if it's rewarding. You answered it yourself. And no, I'm not opposed to ez mode. Hell, I might even do it myself if it was rewarding. Raids aren't very rewarding.

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:
    How does this make it better compared to multiple ascended sets as far as actual cost and functionality? While inventory management is an issue, I doubt it's a bigger issue than gold cost or ease of use as far as changing specs.

    If i don't have the space for multiple sets of armor, i don't have the space. Period. In this case, an ability to change the stats becomes invaluable. And no, i won't be changing stats in MF and rebuying the runes everytime i switch between different PvE specs, or between PvE and WvW. I'd go bankrupt within a month (or faster).

    Buying 32 slot bags for the gear is still cheaper and faster.

  • STIHL.2489STIHL.2489 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited December 17, 2017

    @Oldirtbeard.9834 said:

    I resent that, I took time to think of a unique solution to the Easy Raid argument and even put my proposal together by suggesting mechanics that was already developed, nothing to really do but re-purpose at that point.

    Not a bad idea, but I just found out something that has changed my whole view on these discussions, did you know that raids sell for 80 to 100 gold PER raid Boss (not Wing, Per Boss ), this Raids are a commodity to them, they don't care about the game, mode or players, none of that matters, all that matters is that somehow Raids remain worth charging 80 - 100 gold (or more!) per boss, and that three are players who will pay them.

    Easy/Normal/Hard mode (or any solution really) would destroy that for them, so, obviously they will rally against it, and nothing anyone will say will change their mind, as long as raid clears can be sold for such profit, they will fight to the bitter death to keep their cash cow.

  • @STIHL.2489 said:
    Easy/Normal/Hard mode (or any solution really) would destroy that for them, so, obviously they will rally against it, and nothing anyone will say will change their mind, as long as raid clears can be sold for such profit, they will fight to the bitter death to keep their cash cow.

    It would be a huge mistake to assume that most, let alone, all raiders spend any time at all selling raids. (Just as it's a mistake for raiders to assume that all non-raiders who ask for story/easy modes just want easier rewards.)

    Regardless of what anyone here is saying, the fact is that ANet has said that they intend for raids to be the most challenging small-group content in the game. It would undermine their goals (and increase costs significantly) to add additional modes to raids. They also intend that some rewards remain exclusive to raids.

    That doesn't preclude giving people other ways to experience any lore. It doesn't mean that they won't add another way to get stat-swappable armor or legendary rings. Just unlikely.

    Hype is the path to the dark side. Hype leads to unfulfilled expectations. Disappointment leads to anger. Anger leads to disgust. Disgust leads to "oh, new shinies! I'm back!"

  • Vinceman.4572Vinceman.4572 Member ✭✭✭✭
    Raids are fine the way they are, combining bosses of various difficulties

    @STIHL.2489 said:
    Easy/Normal/Hard mode (or any solution really) would destroy that for them, so, obviously they will rally against it, and nothing anyone will say will change their mind, as long as raid clears can be sold for such profit, they will fight to the bitter death to keep their cash cow.

    No, it wouldn't. People are buying raids for the LI's and completing the collection for the armor. You just need to kill every boss once (13 LIs) and then run 137 times Escort to get one armor.
    Since easy modes wouldn't give any LI or even the chance to come near it and people not be able to finish the collection with it the market would remain the same. The raid selling market would only be destroyed if you change the rewards and give easy mode all the things people need for the armor. But even then there's a mini or a weapon/armor skin behind the normal/hard mode due to a must have of incentives so people will still buy it.
    The other question will be: What are the rewards for normal/hard mode then? 20g per kill? 50? Because you need a balance to keep players in those modes. Otherwise everyone will run casual mode. Why bother with harder stuff without rewards? It's the combination of rewards, fun and challenge that keep raiders and fractal CM players in the game.

    R.I.P. Build Templates, 15.10.2019

  • Turin.6921Turin.6921 Member ✭✭✭
    edited December 17, 2017
    Raids are fine the way they are, combining bosses of various difficulties

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:
    How does this make it better compared to multiple ascended sets as far as actual cost and functionality? While inventory management is an issue, I doubt it's a bigger issue than gold cost or ease of use as far as changing specs.

    If i don't have the space for multiple sets of armor, i don't have the space. Period. In this case, an ability to change the stats becomes invaluable. And no, i won't be changing stats in MF and rebuying the runes everytime i switch between different PvE specs, or between PvE and WvW. I'd go bankrupt within a month (or faster).

    Space is not that rare. Its not that there are hundreds of PvE or WvW builds like GW1 or anything. At most you will need 1 or 2 extra sets per char. That just 28 spots of 80. Its annoying but really nothing more than that.

    BTW changing stats in legendaries become even less valuable if you add the 3rd build templates. These do not work with legendary armor yet. So its actually more convenient to keep extra ascended sets for different builds than swapping the legendary. The build templates QoL does not even begin to compare to what the stat swapping provides. This leaves stat swapping useful just for big balance shifts (provided that these actually change equipment that does not always happen). This is really insignificant at this point. Even if this was not the case saying that a simple QoL and cosmetic change constitutes a treadmill is a grave exaggeration.

  • STIHL.2489STIHL.2489 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited December 17, 2017

    @Illconceived Was Na.9781 said:

    @STIHL.2489 said:
    Easy/Normal/Hard mode (or any solution really) would destroy that for them, so, obviously they will rally against it, and nothing anyone will say will change their mind, as long as raid clears can be sold for such profit, they will fight to the bitter death to keep their cash cow.

    It would be a huge mistake to assume that most, let alone, all raiders spend any time at all selling raids. (Just as it's a mistake for raiders to assume that all non-raiders who ask for story/easy modes just want easier rewards.)

    Regardless of what anyone here is saying, the fact is that ANet has said that they intend for raids to be the most challenging small-group content in the game. It would undermine their goals (and increase costs significantly) to add additional modes to raids. They also intend that some rewards remain exclusive to raids.

    That doesn't preclude giving people other ways to experience any lore. It doesn't mean that they won't add another way to get stat-swappable armor or legendary rings. Just unlikely.

    Look, I don't begrudge anyone for parting a fool and their money, if someone wants to get taken for a ride that is on them. So.. no hard feelings.

    But, the sheer irrational adamant stand to be against allowing other PvE modes to have equal rewards simply cannot be driven by any other motive then the drive to keep their sales up, and the price high.

    What I said was a matter of revelation. I mean really, what other motive other would drive them for so long, so adamantly, and so irrationally, to fight any revision to Raids, other then it would hurt their personable profits. And you know, of all the back and fort... I'd respect that honest motive, because Lies have the problem of being lies, which is why all these topics quickly devolve into nonsense and name calling..rational discourse simply cannot be built on lies and false motives.

  • Turin.6921Turin.6921 Member ✭✭✭
    edited December 17, 2017
    Raids are fine the way they are, combining bosses of various difficulties

    @STIHL.2489 said:

    But, the sheer irrational adamant stand to be against allowing other PvE modes to have equal rewards simply cannot be driven by any other motive then the drive to keep their sales up, and the price high.

    What I said was a matter of revelation. I mean really, what other motive other would drive them for so long, so adamantly, and so irrationally, to fight any revision to Raids, other then it would hurt their personable profits.

    It is not really that irrational because there are other much more clear motives different than your aggressive, unfair and cynical approach of ¨the raid seller loosing their income¨. Different modes can stress development that would affect content delivery. There is the issue of splinting up the existing raiding community. Lastly equalizing the rewards between modes that requires a clearly different challenge and time investment can kill the sense of accomplishment and makes doing the harder content actually unfair. The reward needs to be respective to the effort. So for sth that requires more, there always need to be an exclusive reward that is worth it. You do not have a game otherwise.

  • STIHL.2489STIHL.2489 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited December 17, 2017

    @Turin.6921 said:

    @STIHL.2489 said:

    But, the sheer irrational adamant stand to be against allowing other PvE modes to have equal rewards simply cannot be driven by any other motive then the drive to keep their sales up, and the price high.

    What I said was a matter of revelation. I mean really, what other motive other would drive them for so long, so adamantly, and so irrationally, to fight any revision to Raids, other then it would hurt their personable profits.

    It is not really that irrational because there are other much more clear motives different than your aggressive, unfair and cynical approach of ¨the raid seller loosing their income¨. Different modes can stress development that would affect content delivery. There is the issue of splinting up the existing raiding community. Lastly equalizing the rewards between modes that requires a clearly different challenge and time investment can kill the sense of accomplishment and makes doing the harder content actually unfair. The reward needs to be respective to the effort. So for sth that requires more, there always need to be an exclusive reward that is worth it. You do not have a game otherwise.

    Don't mean you worth selling and buying?

    But I degrees.. I'm over this. Now that I see the underlying motion... that kind of clarity kind takes the fight out of me. Do I really ever think I'll convince someone to give up their money maker? LOL.. NO.. thinking such.. Now that would be foolish of me.

  • STIHL.2489STIHL.2489 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited December 17, 2017

    @Illconceived Was Na.9781 said:

    @STIHL.2489 said:
    But, the sheer irrational adamant stand to be against allowing other PvE modes to have equal rewards simply cannot be driven by any other motive then the drive to keep their sales up, and the price high. ... what other motive other would drive them for so long, so adamantly, and so irrationally, to fight any revision to Raids, other then it would hurt their personable profits.

    The fact that you don't accept the reasons doesn't change things: people have other reasons for being against rewards being 'equal' across different levels of challenges. If I were in charge, I might not have made the same choices as ANet has, but I agree with them that it's critical that the most challenging mode in their game should have rewards that are notable and exclusive to the mode.

    One could argue that it's just as irrational to insist that raids be watered down so that that they appeal to everyone or to insist that everything in the game has 'equal' rewards.

    The point is that the mode is designed for a narrow niche: that's why the raid team needs so few people; it's a lot easier to develop the mode if they can assume a certain type of interest and certain minimum levels of skill; it's much more difficult to setup things to appeal among wide cross-sections of the entire community. (Just look at how difficult it is for ANet to get story instances at a level of difficulty that is fun for everyone: skilled players complain things are too easy or too artificially long; more lackadaisical players complain that they are far too hard to solo, without changing their build or tactics past their comfort levels.)

    If that's your story.. keep to it, but if were simply a matter of reward, it could have been solved by simply making it 10 times the grind to do it on easy as it would have been for hard. This skilled payers could get their armor in weeks and moths and less skilled would take months and years. That would make sense.. by the time "casuals" got legendary anything, they would be old news and the hardcore players would have already ,moved on to the next latest and greatest.

    But.. No.. that was not the case. There was a direct refusal to give them any access at all. Hummm. yah.. nah. That's how people act when they are at risk of losing something, like.. 80 - 100 per raid Boss. 15,000 Gold per Armor, per sucker willing to spend it, and a bunch of other poor sods that just want to do a raid, That's some serious funds at risk there.

    I would believe this is all about not wanting to lose that kind of in game money whale.. a whole lot more then I'd buy all this fussing is just due to some "I just want to feel better then you" ... the former I'd respect.. the latter.. not so much.

    Just saying.

  • Vinceman.4572Vinceman.4572 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited December 17, 2017
    Raids are fine the way they are, combining bosses of various difficulties

    Raid selling is a niche of a niche it's really not worth discussing. Could we live without it? Yes, definitely. Does it harm the overall playerbase. Not in the slightest. I was selling dungeons daily back in the days and some fractals here and there. If you really make a business out it with raids it's a stressful thing with organization and planning to get your crowd together + comply with playtime of the buyer.
    People that are buying raids on a regular basis are your mentioned "money whales", not the usual casual pve player. Those are not really interested in playing the game. They have everything they need or can have everything they want. Two types of players converge here, the ones with a need and the ones with the offer.

    On the other hand making legendary armor more of a grind than now wouldn't be an acceptable solution. The players who would go grind for it are already dedicated players and will easily be able to beat the current bosses of w1-4 as they are not hard to beat. The rest just don't care, for them acquiring ascended armor is grind enough.
    The remains are such a tiny minority that either goes into the forums to complain about instead of playing the game.

    R.I.P. Build Templates, 15.10.2019

  • Feanor.2358Feanor.2358 Member ✭✭✭✭
    Raids are fine the way they are, combining bosses of various difficulties

    @STIHL.2489 said:

    @Illconceived Was Na.9781 said:

    @STIHL.2489 said:
    But, the sheer irrational adamant stand to be against allowing other PvE modes to have equal rewards simply cannot be driven by any other motive then the drive to keep their sales up, and the price high. ... what other motive other would drive them for so long, so adamantly, and so irrationally, to fight any revision to Raids, other then it would hurt their personable profits.

    The fact that you don't accept the reasons doesn't change things: people have other reasons for being against rewards being 'equal' across different levels of challenges. If I were in charge, I might not have made the same choices as ANet has, but I agree with them that it's critical that the most challenging mode in their game should have rewards that are notable and exclusive to the mode.

    One could argue that it's just as irrational to insist that raids be watered down so that that they appeal to everyone or to insist that everything in the game has 'equal' rewards.

    The point is that the mode is designed for a narrow niche: that's why the raid team needs so few people; it's a lot easier to develop the mode if they can assume a certain type of interest and certain minimum levels of skill; it's much more difficult to setup things to appeal among wide cross-sections of the entire community. (Just look at how difficult it is for ANet to get story instances at a level of difficulty that is fun for everyone: skilled players complain things are too easy or too artificially long; more lackadaisical players complain that they are far too hard to solo, without changing their build or tactics past their comfort levels.)

    If that's your story.. keep to it, but if were simply a matter of reward, it could have been solved by simply making it 10 times the grind to do it on easy as it would have been for hard. This skilled payers could get their armor in weeks and moths and less skilled would take months and years. That would make sense.. by the time "casuals" got legendary anything, they would be old news and the hardcore players would have already ,moved on to the next latest and greatest.

    But.. No.. that was not the case. There was a direct refusal to give them any access at all. Hummm. yah.. nah. That's how people act when they are at risk of losing something, like.. 80 - 100 per raid Boss. 15,000 Gold per Armor, per sucker willing to spend it, and a bunch of other poor sods that just want to do a raid, That's some serious funds at risk there.

    I would believe this is all about not wanting to lose that kind of in game money whale.. a whole lot more then I'd buy all this fussing is just due to some "I just want to feel better then you" ... the former I'd respect.. the latter.. not so much.

    Just saying.

    Now you're just being ridiculous. Do you have any idea what skill does it take to not simply low-man all the bosses, getting all the achievements, but to also carry someone through? It's a handful of players who can do that and they won't waste their time quarreling on the forums. The explanation is very, very simple. The game mode is intended to provide a special challenge and to require special efforts. For that, it simply needs special, exclusive rewards. Otherwise it couldn't attract enough players and would turn out a dead content. Like it or not, players flock to the rewards. You can see it in Istan, you can see it in raids, you could see it in WvW back when pips were first introduced and borderlands were 24/7 cluttered with people afking for pips. It's game dev basics, and you don't have to look any further than that to explain the situation. Occam's razor and all that.

  • @STIHL.2489 said:
    If that's your story..

    It's not "my story" — it's a genral truism that there are other ways to look at the world than our own.
    I don't raid, I can't possibly earn any gold from raids. And I still don't think that there needs to be a way to get stat-changing armor from open world PvE.
    (I'm not against it either; I just don't think it's worth ANet's time to figure out how to implement it.)

    Hype is the path to the dark side. Hype leads to unfulfilled expectations. Disappointment leads to anger. Anger leads to disgust. Disgust leads to "oh, new shinies! I'm back!"

  • STIHL.2489STIHL.2489 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited December 17, 2017

    @Illconceived Was Na.9781 said:

    @STIHL.2489 said:
    If that's your story..

    It's not "my story" — it's a genral truism that there are other ways to look at the world than our own.

    Ok .. let me see if I have this right.

    I try to be understanding that changing raids would be a fiscal loss to those that sell them.. which would explain the outcry and adamant continual and in some cases downright irrational fighting on this subject matter by the raid community..

    And you (and apparently others) turn around.. tell me I am wrong and that No, they are really just that petty, childish and greedy, that they can't have fun unless they have something that makes them feel better then other people. (hence being so against making raids accessible to a larger audience)

    Well.. I don't have a dog in that fight... so.. Ok then I guess.

  • Vinceman.4572Vinceman.4572 Member ✭✭✭✭
    Raids are fine the way they are, combining bosses of various difficulties

    @STIHL.2489 said:
    I try to be understanding that changing raids would be a fiscal loss to those that sell them.. which would explain the outcry and adamant continual and in some cases downright irrational fighting on this subject matter by the raid community..

    And you (and apparently others) turn around.. tell me I am wrong and that No, they are really just that petty, childish and greedy, that they can't have fun unless they have something that makes them feel better then other people.

    Well.. I don't have a dog in that fight... so.. Ok then I guess.

    I repeat myself: Selling raids is not an issue in this game. It's not the casual players that are buying raids.
    But yes, a change should be acceptable for all. The best solution would be to rebalance all bosses so you need 10 players to be successful. Note that this would increase the raid difficulty enormously.

    R.I.P. Build Templates, 15.10.2019

  • @STIHL.2489 said:

    @Illconceived Was Na.9781 said:

    @STIHL.2489 said:
    If that's your story..

    It's not "my story" — it's a genral truism that there are other ways to look at the world than our own.

    Ok .. let me see if I have this right.

    I try to be understanding that changing raids would be a fiscal loss to those that sell them.. which would explain the outcry and adamant continual and in some cases downright irrational fighting on this subject matter by the raid community..

    And you (and apparently others) turn around.. tell me I am wrong and that No, they are really just that petty, childish and greedy, that they can't have fun unless they have something that makes them feel better then other people. (hence being so against making raids accessible to a larger audience)

    Well.. I don't have a dog in that fight... so.. Ok then I guess.

    The very point of raids is that they are geared to a narrow audience. Making them accessible to a larger audience means denying their purpose (and also would mean taking resources away from other parts of the PvE game, since it would take more people to make that happen and maintain it, through other changes to the game).

    It's reasonable to disagree about whether GW2 should have exclusive content. Since there is exclusive content, I hope you can see that it's important that it also have exclusive rewards. That's not a matter of pettiness, greed, or childishness... unless you also think it's petty, greedy, or childish to want the same rewards without participating in that challenging content.

    Hype is the path to the dark side. Hype leads to unfulfilled expectations. Disappointment leads to anger. Anger leads to disgust. Disgust leads to "oh, new shinies! I'm back!"

  • Astralporing.1957Astralporing.1957 Member ✭✭✭✭
    We need an easy mode, but not a hard mode

    @Illconceived Was Na.9781 said:
    It's reasonable to disagree about whether GW2 should have exclusive content. Since there is exclusive content, I hope you can see that it's important that it also have exclusive rewards.

    I actually don't. Not really. Or at least i don't understand why it'd be so important as far as the content is concerned (i do realize why some people would want to have exclusive rewards all to their own, but it's not the kind of behaviour i'd ever promote). And even then, there's a big difference between just making a bunch of exclusive skins for the mode (which Anet did), and locking out legendaries behind it. Having the white mantle set/boss exclusive skins should have been enough.

    @Illconceived Was Na.9781 said:
    That's not a matter of pettiness, greed, or childishness... unless you also think it's petty, greedy, or childish to want the same rewards without participating in that challenging content.

    Ah, so you think that wanting to share things with others is as petty, greedy and childish as wanting to deny things to others. Good to know.

    The whole point of a social game is to play with the people you want to play with, not be forced to play with the people you don't.

  • STIHL.2489STIHL.2489 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited December 17, 2017

    @Illconceived Was Na.9781 said:

    @STIHL.2489 said:

    @Illconceived Was Na.9781 said:

    @STIHL.2489 said:
    If that's your story..

    It's not "my story" — it's a genral truism that there are other ways to look at the world than our own.

    Ok .. let me see if I have this right.

    I try to be understanding that changing raids would be a fiscal loss to those that sell them.. which would explain the outcry and adamant continual and in some cases downright irrational fighting on this subject matter by the raid community..

    And you (and apparently others) turn around.. tell me I am wrong and that No, they are really just that petty, childish and greedy, that they can't have fun unless they have something that makes them feel better then other people. (hence being so against making raids accessible to a larger audience)

    Well.. I don't have a dog in that fight... so.. Ok then I guess.

    The very point of raids is that they are geared to a narrow audience. Making them accessible to a larger audience means denying their purpose (and also would mean taking resources away from other parts of the PvE game, since it would take more people to make that happen and maintain it, through other changes to the game).

    It's reasonable to disagree about whether GW2 should have exclusive content. Since there is exclusive content, I hope you can see that it's important that it also have exclusive rewards. That's not a matter of pettiness, greed, or childishness... unless you also think it's petty, greedy, or childish to want the same rewards without participating in that challenging content.

    Why else did they demand the content to stat with.. it wasn't born in a void.. it was petitioned by the players..

    Believe what you want, by why else beg for the content and rabidly defend the exclusive rewards linked to it, other then for selfish motives, the only real question is, is all this back and fort is either purely insufferable childish pertness, or does it have the underlying motive of the profit gained from selling raid slots.

    To be honest.. 80 - 100 per boss, 15 THOUSAND gold from some sucker that feels they need this stuff.. has me thinking about getting into raids just to sell slots.

  • Feanor.2358Feanor.2358 Member ✭✭✭✭
    Raids are fine the way they are, combining bosses of various difficulties

    @STIHL.2489 said:
    Why else did they demand the content to stat with.. it wasn't born in a void.. it was petitioned by the players..

    Believe what you want, by why else beg for the content and rabidly defend the exclusive rewards linked to it, other then for selfish motives, the only real question is, is all this back and fort is either purely insufferable childish pertness, or does it have the underlying motive of the profit gained from selling raid slots.

    Believe it or not, it was asked by the players because they wanted to have something fun to do in the game.
    Believe it or not, the exclusive rewards are needed to keep the player population high enough. It's true for any game mode or content, really.

  • STIHL.2489STIHL.2489 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Feanor.2358 said:

    @STIHL.2489 said:
    Why else did they demand the content to stat with.. it wasn't born in a void.. it was petitioned by the players..

    Believe what you want, by why else beg for the content and rabidly defend the exclusive rewards linked to it, other then for selfish motives, the only real question is, is all this back and fort is either purely insufferable childish pertness, or does it have the underlying motive of the profit gained from selling raid slots.

    Believe it or not, it was asked by the players because they wanted to have something fun to do in the game.
    Believe it or not, the exclusive rewards are needed to keep the player population high enough. It's true for any game mode or content, really.

    WRONG. WvW proved this nonsense wrong, for YEARS.

    So done with this nonsense.

  • Feanor.2358Feanor.2358 Member ✭✭✭✭
    Raids are fine the way they are, combining bosses of various difficulties

    @STIHL.2489 said:

    @Feanor.2358 said:

    @STIHL.2489 said:
    Why else did they demand the content to stat with.. it wasn't born in a void.. it was petitioned by the players..

    Believe what you want, by why else beg for the content and rabidly defend the exclusive rewards linked to it, other then for selfish motives, the only real question is, is all this back and fort is either purely insufferable childish pertness, or does it have the underlying motive of the profit gained from selling raid slots.

    Believe it or not, it was asked by the players because they wanted to have something fun to do in the game.
    Believe it or not, the exclusive rewards are needed to keep the player population high enough. It's true for any game mode or content, really.

    WRONG. WvW proved this nonsense wrong, for YEARS.

    So done with this nonsense.

    WvW is a PvP mode, it is not comparable. See dungeon LFGs.

  • STIHL.2489STIHL.2489 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Feanor.2358 said:

    @STIHL.2489 said:

    @Feanor.2358 said:

    @STIHL.2489 said:
    Why else did they demand the content to stat with.. it wasn't born in a void.. it was petitioned by the players..

    Believe what you want, by why else beg for the content and rabidly defend the exclusive rewards linked to it, other then for selfish motives, the only real question is, is all this back and fort is either purely insufferable childish pertness, or does it have the underlying motive of the profit gained from selling raid slots.

    Believe it or not, it was asked by the players because they wanted to have something fun to do in the game.
    Believe it or not, the exclusive rewards are needed to keep the player population high enough. It's true for any game mode or content, really.

    WRONG. WvW proved this nonsense wrong, for YEARS.

    So done with this nonsense.

    WvW is a PvP mode, it is not comparable. See dungeon LFGs.

    WRONG

    You said.

    Believe it or not, the exclusive rewards are needed to keep the player population high enough. It's true for any game mode or content, really.

  • maxwelgm.4315maxwelgm.4315 Member ✭✭✭
    Raids are fine the way they are, combining bosses of various difficulties

    I don't think dungeons are a good example, because dungeons were butchered on purpose by Anet: the team disbanded and no one wants to even touch them again. Whereas WvW still has a dev team (in spite of jokes that no one cares about WvW).

    On the matter of rewards, Raids are comparable to playing a single game on its hardest settings: you don't really play it for the rewards, you play to put yourself to the test and taking a shot at breaking records, etc. Repeating raids over and over should be an exercise akin to racing the ghost driver of your previous race in a racing game, only shooting for a better time score. Giving rewards for it should work as an excuse and not the central point of it all. The unique skins like Oblivion and Matthias' Staff are perfect for example. Now, giving the only fully animated armor set in the whole game, in a game that is all about collecting skins, inside a mode that caters to challenge-seeking players? It would be baffling if Anet didn't know they would create at least some conflict within players (alas, they apparently didn't due to the rushed addition of "legendary" pvp/wvw armor).

  • Astralporing.1957Astralporing.1957 Member ✭✭✭✭
    We need an easy mode, but not a hard mode

    @Feanor.2358 said:
    Believe it or not, the exclusive rewards are needed to keep the player population high enough. It's true for any game mode or content, really.

    Previous experiences have shown something completely different. Good rewards are necessary to keep player population up. Exclusives don't help much in that regard at all, and sometimes can cause an opposite reaction (players that are in for exclusives leave once they've got them, generally do not care about the content itself in the slightest, and if there's too much of them, well, see how the SPvP ended up as a result of a wave of Ascension backpack farmers).

    @Feanor.2358 said:
    WvW is a PvP mode, it is not comparable. See dungeon LFGs.

    Dungeon LFGs have shown clearly that exclusives are not what motivates majority of players. Current dungeons have exactly as much exclusives as they've had at their peak population. It was not due to them that the players came, and it was not due to lack of those that they've left.

    The whole point of a social game is to play with the people you want to play with, not be forced to play with the people you don't.

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited December 18, 2017
    Raids are fine the way they are, combining bosses of various difficulties

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @Feanor.2358 said:
    Believe it or not, the exclusive rewards are needed to keep the player population high enough. It's true for any game mode or content, really.

    Previous experiences have shown something completely different. Good rewards are necessary to keep player population up. Exclusives don't help much in that regard at all, and sometimes can cause an opposite reaction (players that are in for exclusives leave once they've got them, generally do not care about the content itself in the slightest, and if there's too much of them, well, see how the SPvP ended up as a result of a wave of Ascension backpack farmers).

    @Feanor.2358 said:
    WvW is a PvP mode, it is not comparable. See dungeon LFGs.

    Dungeon LFGs have shown clearly that exclusives are not what motivates majority of players. Current dungeons have exactly as much exclusives as they've had at their peak population. It was not due to them that the players came, and it was not due to lack of those that they've left.

    Actually dungeons show that one of the main motivating factors is gold rewards in pve and a gravitation towards least effort required for maximum profit (which nicely coincides with the path of least resistance: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Path_of_least_resistance ).

    • Dungeons now provide similar loot and rewards compared to their peak
    • Dungeons now are easier than during vanilla due to massive power creep
    • Dungeons are even easier thanks to mass availability of guides, tutorials, out of game help

    What changed?

    Simple, everything else. There is now multiple way more lucrative ways of gaining more gold/hour, most of them without requirement of partying or any type of social interaction. Back when dungeons and Silverwastes were the top farms available, people would alternate which of both they ran even though Silverwastes was more lucrative (and world bosses were run as well). Now that there is multiple silverwaste open world opportunities, the interest in dungeons has subsided.

    What this shows is that if given enough alternatives to not party yet gain the same amount of wealth/progress, people will chose single player alternatives often (easier to manage, no requirements for social interaction, scheduling conflicts, less demanding skill wise in this game, etc.). While that might be considered a short term benefit to the individual, it's absolute poison for a MMORPG and is a main reason for deterioration of community, guilds and social interaction between players.

    Given this basic idea, there is 2 ways to keep raids interesting:

    • exclusives
    • very high gold/wealth rewards

    I'm not sure which people would complain more about and which is healthier to the general games economy (well I have my thought on this but let's keep it short).

    EDIT: change Principle of least effort to Path of least resistance because I really don't feel like explaining how both can be applied. Also most people will be more familiar with the later than with the former. For reference, Principle of least effort: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Principle_of_least_effort

  • Feanor.2358Feanor.2358 Member ✭✭✭✭
    Raids are fine the way they are, combining bosses of various difficulties

    @STIHL.2489 said:

    @Feanor.2358 said:

    @STIHL.2489 said:

    @Feanor.2358 said:

    @STIHL.2489 said:
    Why else did they demand the content to stat with.. it wasn't born in a void.. it was petitioned by the players..

    Believe what you want, by why else beg for the content and rabidly defend the exclusive rewards linked to it, other then for selfish motives, the only real question is, is all this back and fort is either purely insufferable childish pertness, or does it have the underlying motive of the profit gained from selling raid slots.

    Believe it or not, it was asked by the players because they wanted to have something fun to do in the game.
    Believe it or not, the exclusive rewards are needed to keep the player population high enough. It's true for any game mode or content, really.

    WRONG. WvW proved this nonsense wrong, for YEARS.

    So done with this nonsense.

    WvW is a PvP mode, it is not comparable. See dungeon LFGs.

    WRONG

    You said.

    Believe it or not, the exclusive rewards are needed to keep the player population high enough. It's true for any game mode or content, really.

    That's the reason for locking Gifts of Battle in WvW and giving PvP their own backpiece though. But I'll admit my original statement isn't as strong for PvP modes. Still
    stays true for PvE. Dungeon exclusive rewards are largely exhausted and nobody cares about these anymore. The only incentive left is to get an occasional Gift for making a legendary, which requires you to do a grand total of 5 dungeon paths.

  • Astralporing.1957Astralporing.1957 Member ✭✭✭✭
    We need an easy mode, but not a hard mode

    @Cyninja.2954 said:
    Actually dungeons show that one of the main motivating factors is gold rewards in pve and a gravitation towards least effort required for maximum profit (which nicely coincides with the path of least resistance: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Path_of_least_resistance ).

    Precisely. While rewards were a motivating factor, it was all about pure material/gold gain, it was never about exclusives.

    @Feanor.2358 said:
    Still stays true for PvE. Dungeon exclusive rewards are largely exhausted and nobody cares about these anymore. The only incentive left is to get an occasional Gift for making a legendary, which requires you to do a grand total of 5 dungeon paths.

    Making the dungeon skins available through PvP tracks did not make any visible impact to the dungeon population. It has been rising and falling based on gold rewards and difficulty (with some slight impact added from achievements). Exclusives vere never considered a major consideration in all this.

    And as for things like Gift of Battle... First, they require only slight dipping in the content - they are a reason to see the content, but don't require too much investment into it. Second, those that require too much of an investment are in the long run actually hurtful to the content. The players that are interested in the mode for the exclusives only play it differently than those that are in it primarily for fun. This often causes friction between those two groups that can have negative consequences for the whole mode. This could be seen already both in WvW and sPvP.

    Basically, you'd want the mode to have enough rewards for the people playing it for fun to not feel like they are losing out, but not enough to actually make it a main reason for playing it. Unless, of course, you don't really care for the content at all, and are in it for different reasons.

    The whole point of a social game is to play with the people you want to play with, not be forced to play with the people you don't.

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited December 18, 2017
    Raids are fine the way they are, combining bosses of various difficulties

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:
    Actually dungeons show that one of the main motivating factors is gold rewards in pve and a gravitation towards least effort required for maximum profit (which nicely coincides with the path of least resistance: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Path_of_least_resistance ).

    Precisely. While rewards were a motivating factor, it was all about pure material/gold gain, it was never about exclusives.

    @Feanor.2358 said:
    Still stays true for PvE. Dungeon exclusive rewards are largely exhausted and nobody cares about these anymore. The only incentive left is to get an occasional Gift for making a legendary, which requires you to do a grand total of 5 dungeon paths.

    Making the dungeon skins available through PvP tracks did not make any visible impact to the dungeon population. It has been rising and falling based on gold rewards and difficulty (with some slight impact added from achievements). Exclusives vere never considered a major consideration in all this.

    And as for things like Gift of Battle... First, they require only slight dipping in the content - they are a reason to see the content, but don't require too much investment into it. Second, those that require too much of an investment are in the long run actually hurtful to the content. The players that are interested in the mode for the exclusives only play it differently than those that are in it primarily for fun. This often causes friction between those two groups that can have negative consequences for the whole mode. This could be seen already both in WvW and sPvP.

    Basically, you'd want the mode to have enough rewards for the people playing it for fun to not feel like they are losing out, but not enough to actually make it a main reason for playing it. Unless, of course, you don't really care for the content at all, and are in it for different reasons.

    I like how you took part of my post, and omitted the part which would be a problem.

    So if you are against exclusives in raids, you must favor for arenanet to increase the gold/wealth reward substantially then.

    We are currently at around 20g/hour for raids if you complete wings 1-4 in around 2 hours. That's already behind RIBA in Siverwastes which is around 30-40 gold per hour without a weekly lockout. Should we increase gold rewards for raids to around 300-400 gold per hour then(weekly lockouts, most challenging pve content, etc.)?

    What would be a sufficient gold reward motivator in your opinion to keep the mode relevant when moving away from exclusives?

  • Feanor.2358Feanor.2358 Member ✭✭✭✭
    Raids are fine the way they are, combining bosses of various difficulties

    @Astralporing.1957 said:
    Basically, you'd want the mode to have enough rewards for the people playing it for fun to not feel like they are losing out, but not enough to actually make it a main reason for playing it. Unless, of course, you don't really care for the content at all, and are in it for different reasons.

    You're looking at the problem from too close, at an individual level. You need to step back and look at the big picture. It's not about the motives of an individual player, it's about managing the population of the game mode. Again, dungeons. There are many people who like to play these for fun, but usually don't. Why? Because there aren't enough players out there. Because it's no fun to hang in LFG for half an hour. You don't only need to give motivations for players who are already interested, you need to draw enough people in to sustain the game mode by making it easy to play. Raids already have drawbacks in this respect by both being more challenging and requiring twice as many people. Hence, rewards. These are the universal motivator in games, especially in PvE.

  • Tyson.5160Tyson.5160 Member ✭✭✭✭
    We need both easy and hard modes

    Anet has said time and time again, no easy mode, which unfortunate, yet they continue to make the Challenge Modes. Why not skip the challenge modes as well or make the Challenge mode the regular normal modes. By getting rid of one of these mode, would it not make the development time faster?

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited December 18, 2017
    Raids are fine the way they are, combining bosses of various difficulties

    @Tyson.5160 said:
    Anet has said time and time again, no easy mode, which unfortunate, yet they continue to make the Challenge Modes. Why not skip the challenge modes as well or make the Challenge mode the regular normal modes. By getting rid of one of these mode, would it not make the development time faster?

    Challenge modes are not even comparable to raid boss designs. Also they do skip challenge modes, the new fractal doesn't have one if you have noticed. Currently only 2 challenge modes exist in fractals and both simply increase the frequency of attacks as well as increase the radius, nothing which requires complex rework and is basically just an up-scaling similar how T1 scales to T4 making challenge modes on those fractals a T5. They introduce challenge modes on fractals where they make sense and so far the mechanics between normal and challenge mode do not require much adjusting.

    That's not the case for raids where many mechanics are do or die not to mention the entire reward adjustment requirements etc.

  • Tyson.5160Tyson.5160 Member ✭✭✭✭
    We need both easy and hard modes

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Tyson.5160 said:
    Anet has said time and time again, no easy mode, which unfortunate, yet they continue to make the Challenge Modes. Why not skip the challenge modes as well or make the Challenge mode the regular normal modes. By getting rid of one of these mode, would it not make the development time faster?

    Challenge modes are not even comparable to raid boss designs. Also they do skip challenge modes, the new fractal doesn't have one if you have noticed. Currently only 2 challenge modes exist in fractals and both simply increase the frequency of attacks as well as increase the radius, nothing which requires complex rework and is basically just an up-scaling similar how T1 scales to T4 making challenge modes on those fractals a T5. They introduce challenge modes on fractals where they make sense and so far the mechanics between normal and challenge mode do not require much adjusting.

    That's not the case for raids where many mechanics are do or die not to mention the entire reward adjustment requirements etc.

    Strictly from a raid design, why have a Challenge Mode to begin with, just make the Chalkenge Mode the main mode.

  • Feanor.2358Feanor.2358 Member ✭✭✭✭
    Raids are fine the way they are, combining bosses of various difficulties

    @Tyson.5160 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Tyson.5160 said:
    Anet has said time and time again, no easy mode, which unfortunate, yet they continue to make the Challenge Modes. Why not skip the challenge modes as well or make the Challenge mode the regular normal modes. By getting rid of one of these mode, would it not make the development time faster?

    Challenge modes are not even comparable to raid boss designs. Also they do skip challenge modes, the new fractal doesn't have one if you have noticed. Currently only 2 challenge modes exist in fractals and both simply increase the frequency of attacks as well as increase the radius, nothing which requires complex rework and is basically just an up-scaling similar how T1 scales to T4 making challenge modes on those fractals a T5. They introduce challenge modes on fractals where they make sense and so far the mechanics between normal and challenge mode do not require much adjusting.

    That's not the case for raids where many mechanics are do or die not to mention the entire reward adjustment requirements etc.

    Strictly from a raid design, why have a Challenge Mode to begin with, just make the Chalkenge Mode the main mode.

    Because it's different levels of challenge, intended for different players. The difference with a hypothetical easy mode being, there is already content with lower-than-raid difficulty - FotM CM, T4, T3, T2, T1 in this order.

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭
    Raids are fine the way they are, combining bosses of various difficulties

    @Tyson.5160 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Tyson.5160 said:
    Anet has said time and time again, no easy mode, which unfortunate, yet they continue to make the Challenge Modes. Why not skip the challenge modes as well or make the Challenge mode the regular normal modes. By getting rid of one of these mode, would it not make the development time faster?

    Challenge modes are not even comparable to raid boss designs. Also they do skip challenge modes, the new fractal doesn't have one if you have noticed. Currently only 2 challenge modes exist in fractals and both simply increase the frequency of attacks as well as increase the radius, nothing which requires complex rework and is basically just an up-scaling similar how T1 scales to T4 making challenge modes on those fractals a T5. They introduce challenge modes on fractals where they make sense and so far the mechanics between normal and challenge mode do not require much adjusting.

    That's not the case for raids where many mechanics are do or die not to mention the entire reward adjustment requirements etc.

    Strictly from a raid design, why have a Challenge Mode to begin with, just make the Chalkenge Mode the main mode.

    The same reason there is challenge modes for fractals. Extra challenge for very dedicated players but not pushing the bar to far beyond what difficulty the developers are aiming for.

    Also only wing 4 and 5 have challenge modes, wing 1, 2 and 3 have achievements based on limiting your groups performance without actually changing the fight mechanics. The challenge modes in wing 4 and 5 again mostly just alter some of the already existing attacks without outright changing them.

  • Alehin.3746Alehin.3746 Member ✭✭✭
    We need an easy mode, but not a hard mode

    I think raids are fine how they are right now, but adding an easy mode for practice/fun wouldn't hurt, as long as they don't get LI' or achievments while doing it. It should be used for training/fun, not for "baddies" to farm legendary armor. Vendor items are fine tho, as long as they have to pay the same price and have the same drop rate.

    I don't even consider myself a awesome raider, but honestly if i could just make my legendary armor raiding on easy mode, i wouldn't even want it. It would feel boring like all other legendaries in the game.

  • Tyson.5160Tyson.5160 Member ✭✭✭✭
    We need both easy and hard modes

    I mean Crystal stated that raids should the most challenging content and time is not on their side with such a small team, why waste time developing different difficulty modes, make it all challenge mode.

  • Tyson.5160Tyson.5160 Member ✭✭✭✭
    We need both easy and hard modes

    @Feanor.2358 said:

    @Tyson.5160 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Tyson.5160 said:
    Anet has said time and time again, no easy mode, which unfortunate, yet they continue to make the Challenge Modes. Why not skip the challenge modes as well or make the Challenge mode the regular normal modes. By getting rid of one of these mode, would it not make the development time faster?

    Challenge modes are not even comparable to raid boss designs. Also they do skip challenge modes, the new fractal doesn't have one if you have noticed. Currently only 2 challenge modes exist in fractals and both simply increase the frequency of attacks as well as increase the radius, nothing which requires complex rework and is basically just an up-scaling similar how T1 scales to T4 making challenge modes on those fractals a T5. They introduce challenge modes on fractals where they make sense and so far the mechanics between normal and challenge mode do not require much adjusting.

    That's not the case for raids where many mechanics are do or die not to mention the entire reward adjustment requirements etc.

    Strictly from a raid design, why have a Challenge Mode to begin with, just make the Chalkenge Mode the main mode.

    Because it's different levels of challenge, intended for different players. The difference with a hypothetical easy mode being, there is already content with lower-than-raid difficulty - FotM CM, T4, T3, T2, T1 in this order.

    Just speaking about raids, not fractals.

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭
    Raids are fine the way they are, combining bosses of various difficulties

    @Tyson.5160 said:
    I mean Crystal stated that raids should the most challenging content and time is not on their side with such a small team, why waste time developing different difficulty modes, make it all challenge mode.

    Depends on how much extra effort it takes to implement challenge modes and how difficult the base content is. Dhuum for one in wing 5 has no challenge mode. Neither do the escort events.

    The reason why challenge modes are not base difficulty was already explained, because that's not the target difficulty for that content.

  • Feanor.2358Feanor.2358 Member ✭✭✭✭
    Raids are fine the way they are, combining bosses of various difficulties

    @Tyson.5160 said:

    @Feanor.2358 said:

    @Tyson.5160 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Tyson.5160 said:
    Anet has said time and time again, no easy mode, which unfortunate, yet they continue to make the Challenge Modes. Why not skip the challenge modes as well or make the Challenge mode the regular normal modes. By getting rid of one of these mode, would it not make the development time faster?

    Challenge modes are not even comparable to raid boss designs. Also they do skip challenge modes, the new fractal doesn't have one if you have noticed. Currently only 2 challenge modes exist in fractals and both simply increase the frequency of attacks as well as increase the radius, nothing which requires complex rework and is basically just an up-scaling similar how T1 scales to T4 making challenge modes on those fractals a T5. They introduce challenge modes on fractals where they make sense and so far the mechanics between normal and challenge mode do not require much adjusting.

    That's not the case for raids where many mechanics are do or die not to mention the entire reward adjustment requirements etc.

    Strictly from a raid design, why have a Challenge Mode to begin with, just make the Chalkenge Mode the main mode.

    Because it's different levels of challenge, intended for different players. The difference with a hypothetical easy mode being, there is already content with lower-than-raid difficulty - FotM CM, T4, T3, T2, T1 in this order.

    Just speaking about raids, not fractals.

    I know you're speaking of raids, but it makes no sense to make raids and fractals compete with each other. They would be exactly the same - instanced PvE content of the same difficulty. There's no point, they would be serving the same purpose and ultimately one of these will die due to lack of players. And it will be the easy mode raids, as they will still have inherently higher barrier of entry because it is harder to find 9 other players than it is to find 4.

  • Tyson.5160Tyson.5160 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited December 18, 2017
    We need both easy and hard modes

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Tyson.5160 said:
    I mean Crystal stated that raids should the most challenging content and time is not on their side with such a small team, why waste time developing different difficulty modes, make it all challenge mode.

    Depends on how much extra effort it takes to implement challenge modes and how difficult the base content is. Dhuum for one in wing 5 has no challenge mode. Neither do the escort events.

    The reason why challenge modes are not base difficulty was already explained, because that's not the target difficulty for that content.

    I think Dhuum has a Challenge Mode with a new mechanic. In terms of target difficulty content, I think Crystal stated that raids have to stay the most challenging content, which I would interpret as the Challenge Mode. That was what the Raid was created for wasn’t it? The most Challenging Instanced content? Make it super challenging then.

  • Zhaid Zhem.6508Zhaid Zhem.6508 Member ✭✭✭✭
    We need both easy and hard modes

    The gap between new players or late players and the regularraid players is huge and is widening more and more.
    People say "start with golem, watch videos" Okai that's right, it's an important step, but when you're ready obviously golem is a thing, manage the real boss, manage the others players, understanding what the F is going, the difference with the video guide ... its an other thing.
    And you know how people are talkative and advisor on MMOs (the t4 fractals without any "Hi" and "Ty")
    I did some wings, I didn't even knwo why I had to stay in green zone or ohers, what was the wipe mechanics, why condi was recommanded etc, like "don't tell them you don't remember why, don't tell you're a noob"
    A training or easy mode would help players catch up the level, without kick or ragequit, monday raid guild when it's wednesday, understanding strat and mechanics by themselves ...

  • maxwelgm.4315maxwelgm.4315 Member ✭✭✭
    Raids are fine the way they are, combining bosses of various difficulties

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Tyson.5160 said:
    I mean Crystal stated that raids should the most challenging content and time is not on their side with such a small team, why waste time developing different difficulty modes, make it all challenge mode.

    Depends on how much extra effort it takes to implement challenge modes and how difficult the base content is. Dhuum for one in wing 5 has no challenge mode. Neither do the escort events.

    The reason why challenge modes are not base difficulty was already explained, because that's not the target difficulty for that content.

    Are you sure Dhuum doesn't have a mote? I think people just can't complete it for whatever reason.

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited December 18, 2017
    Raids are fine the way they are, combining bosses of various difficulties

    @Tyson.5160 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Tyson.5160 said:
    I mean Crystal stated that raids should the most challenging content and time is not on their side with such a small team, why waste time developing different difficulty modes, make it all challenge mode.

    Depends on how much extra effort it takes to implement challenge modes and how difficult the base content is. Dhuum for one in wing 5 has no challenge mode. Neither do the escort events.

    The reason why challenge modes are not base difficulty was already explained, because that's not the target difficulty for that content.

    I think Dhuum has a Challenge Mode with a new mechanic. In terms of target difficulty content, I think Crystal stated that raids have to stay the most challenging content, which I would interpret as the Challenge Mode. That was what the Raid was created for wasn’t it? The most Challenging Instanced content? Make it super challenging then.

    Yes my bad, was distracted on that part.

    Raids are the most challenging content. How far this challenge gets pushed is for the developers to decide. If they decide that they want optional even challenger variations of the fights on top (similar to challenge mode fractals which do not provide more daily reward boxes as example) that's for them to decide.

    I don't see how this has anything to do with easy mode though. Saying raids could or should be even more difficult (especially when the implementation of challenge modes so far was mostly by tweaking some variables and not changing mechanics) is something completely different to having to implement easy mode. Especially when challenge modes are available for only a fraction of the raid content.

    @maxwelgm.4315 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Tyson.5160 said:
    I mean Crystal stated that raids should the most challenging content and time is not on their side with such a small team, why waste time developing different difficulty modes, make it all challenge mode.

    Depends on how much extra effort it takes to implement challenge modes and how difficult the base content is. Dhuum for one in wing 5 has no challenge mode. Neither do the escort events.

    The reason why challenge modes are not base difficulty was already explained, because that's not the target difficulty for that content.

    Are you sure Dhuum doesn't have a mote? I think people just can't complete it for whatever reason.

    Yes, my bad. Didn't check and the wiki is not yet up to date. I was only aware of the Soulless Horror CM since I haven't killed Dhuum yet but only up to him.

  • Torolan.5816Torolan.5816 Member ✭✭✭

    @Feanor.2358 said:

    @Astralporing.1957 said:
    Basically, you'd want the mode to have enough rewards for the people playing it for fun to not feel like they are losing out, but not enough to actually make it a main reason for playing it. Unless, of course, you don't really care for the content at all, and are in it for different reasons.

    You're looking at the problem from too close, at an individual level. You need to step back and look at the big picture. It's not about the motives of an individual player, it's about managing the population of the game mode. Again, dungeons. There are many people who like to play these for fun, but usually don't. Why? Because there aren't enough players out there. Because it's no fun to hang in LFG for half an hour. You don't only need to give motivations for players who are already interested, you need to draw enough people in to sustain the game mode by making it easy to play. Raids already have drawbacks in this respect by both being more challenging and requiring twice as many people. Hence, rewards. These are the universal motivator in games, especially in PvE.

    But that makes no sense.
    *You will seldomly hear from PvP players that PvP sucks because it has not much rewards, just look into the pvp section to see why it sucks. The answer is balance.
    *You will also seldomly hear that wvw sucks because it is rewarded even less then PvP. People, myself included, paid for keep upgrades. Huge sums to be honest. And the correct answer here is pirate ship meta, AoE, PvD and lack of love wvw gets from Anet.
    *You will sometimes hear the open world PvE is boring, easy and repetive. It is. But remember that the first world bosses are 5! years old and Anet has only upgraded them once at best. Everyone who is here from the start has done them a million times. Those were easy. Anet raised the bar a litte in the newer maps. If you fight your way through a bunch of elite/veteran white mantles with a cleric, a necro and an elementalist in their ranks all on yourself witrhout breaking a sweat gratulations, you´re a better player than I am.

    People played these modes for years despite neglect because they love them, not because they need them for the completion of X. There are a larger numver of mithril intruders or even knights in the server I fight against. Nobody becomes a mithril knight because he has to, you would have thrown the towel in multiple times if you had to make it without wanting that. I play wvw for about 3 out of 5 years(no interest for the first 2 years) and I am only a silver colonel.
    It sounds inherently wrong for me to support a game mode that needs icentives to lure those in who are wavering if they should do it or even worse cull in those who basically don´t want to but want the shinies. Wvw and PvP have proven that they have a leg to stand on even when they are badly neglected or have a small player base. Why can´t raids do the same?

  • STIHL.2489STIHL.2489 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited December 18, 2017

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:
    Actually dungeons show that one of the main motivating factors is gold rewards in pve and a gravitation towards least effort required for maximum profit (which nicely coincides with the path of least resistance: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Path_of_least_resistance ).

    Precisely. While rewards were a motivating factor, it was all about pure material/gold gain, it was never about exclusives.

    @Feanor.2358 said:
    Still stays true for PvE. Dungeon exclusive rewards are largely exhausted and nobody cares about these anymore. The only incentive left is to get an occasional Gift for making a legendary, which requires you to do a grand total of 5 dungeon paths.

    Making the dungeon skins available through PvP tracks did not make any visible impact to the dungeon population. It has been rising and falling based on gold rewards and difficulty (with some slight impact added from achievements). Exclusives vere never considered a major consideration in all this.

    And as for things like Gift of Battle... First, they require only slight dipping in the content - they are a reason to see the content, but don't require too much investment into it. Second, those that require too much of an investment are in the long run actually hurtful to the content. The players that are interested in the mode for the exclusives only play it differently than those that are in it primarily for fun. This often causes friction between those two groups that can have negative consequences for the whole mode. This could be seen already both in WvW and sPvP.

    Basically, you'd want the mode to have enough rewards for the people playing it for fun to not feel like they are losing out, but not enough to actually make it a main reason for playing it. Unless, of course, you don't really care for the content at all, and are in it for different reasons.

    I have to agree, WvW players hated the PvE scrubs that were there for nothing more then their Legendary. and now the Pip farmers have moved in and locked up spots in the map while not adding anything to the fight. The game mode is better off without them.

    PvP players, play because they enjoy the mode, not because they need exclusive loot to make them feel special.

  • Tyson.5160Tyson.5160 Member ✭✭✭✭
    We need both easy and hard modes

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Tyson.5160 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Tyson.5160 said:
    I mean Crystal stated that raids should the most challenging content and time is not on their side with such a small team, why waste time developing different difficulty modes, make it all challenge mode.

    Depends on how much extra effort it takes to implement challenge modes and how difficult the base content is. Dhuum for one in wing 5 has no challenge mode. Neither do the escort events.

    The reason why challenge modes are not base difficulty was already explained, because that's not the target difficulty for that content.

    I think Dhuum has a Challenge Mode with a new mechanic. In terms of target difficulty content, I think Crystal stated that raids have to stay the most challenging content, which I would interpret as the Challenge Mode. That was what the Raid was created for wasn’t it? The most Challenging Instanced content? Make it super challenging then.

    Yes my bad, was distracted on that part.

    Raids are the most challenging content. How far this challenge gets pushed is for the developers to decide. If they decide that they want optional even challenger variations of the fights on top (similar to challenge mode fractals which do not provide more daily reward boxes as example) that's for them to decide.

    I don't see how this has anything to do with easy mode though. Saying raids could or should be even more difficult (especially when the implementation of challenge modes so far was mostly by tweaking some variables and not changing mechanics) is something completely different to having to implement easy mode. Especially when challenge modes are available for only a fraction of the raid content.

    @maxwelgm.4315 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Tyson.5160 said:
    I mean Crystal stated that raids should the most challenging content and time is not on their side with such a small team, why waste time developing different difficulty modes, make it all challenge mode.

    Depends on how much extra effort it takes to implement challenge modes and how difficult the base content is. Dhuum for one in wing 5 has no challenge mode. Neither do the escort events.

    The reason why challenge modes are not base difficulty was already explained, because that's not the target difficulty for that content.

    Are you sure Dhuum doesn't have a mote? I think people just can't complete it for whatever reason.

    Yes, my bad. Didn't check and the wiki is not yet up to date. I was only aware of the Soulless Horror CM since I haven't killed Dhuum yet but only up to him.

    The reason I bring it up is that I think it was a mistake to add the challenge mode in the first place because then any argument of making different tiered difficulties takes too long goes out the window because they are already doing a multi difficulty mode in raids now. It also gives easy mode a foothold to make that argument. Raids are the most challenging content. Fine then make them super challenging then , but then only 1% can do the content, but that’s ok, because they are not designed to be accessible by everyone. That’s why raids are in the game right? The hardest most challenging content to give the raiders the ultimate challenge? Is this not the case?

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭
    Raids are fine the way they are, combining bosses of various difficulties

    @Tyson.5160 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Tyson.5160 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Tyson.5160 said:
    I mean Crystal stated that raids should the most challenging content and time is not on their side with such a small team, why waste time developing different difficulty modes, make it all challenge mode.

    Depends on how much extra effort it takes to implement challenge modes and how difficult the base content is. Dhuum for one in wing 5 has no challenge mode. Neither do the escort events.

    The reason why challenge modes are not base difficulty was already explained, because that's not the target difficulty for that content.

    I think Dhuum has a Challenge Mode with a new mechanic. In terms of target difficulty content, I think Crystal stated that raids have to stay the most challenging content, which I would interpret as the Challenge Mode. That was what the Raid was created for wasn’t it? The most Challenging Instanced content? Make it super challenging then.

    Yes my bad, was distracted on that part.

    Raids are the most challenging content. How far this challenge gets pushed is for the developers to decide. If they decide that they want optional even challenger variations of the fights on top (similar to challenge mode fractals which do not provide more daily reward boxes as example) that's for them to decide.

    I don't see how this has anything to do with easy mode though. Saying raids could or should be even more difficult (especially when the implementation of challenge modes so far was mostly by tweaking some variables and not changing mechanics) is something completely different to having to implement easy mode. Especially when challenge modes are available for only a fraction of the raid content.

    @maxwelgm.4315 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Tyson.5160 said:
    I mean Crystal stated that raids should the most challenging content and time is not on their side with such a small team, why waste time developing different difficulty modes, make it all challenge mode.

    Depends on how much extra effort it takes to implement challenge modes and how difficult the base content is. Dhuum for one in wing 5 has no challenge mode. Neither do the escort events.

    The reason why challenge modes are not base difficulty was already explained, because that's not the target difficulty for that content.

    Are you sure Dhuum doesn't have a mote? I think people just can't complete it for whatever reason.

    Yes, my bad. Didn't check and the wiki is not yet up to date. I was only aware of the Soulless Horror CM since I haven't killed Dhuum yet but only up to him.

    The reason I bring it up is that I think it was a mistake to add the challenge mode in the first place because then any argument of making different tiered difficulties takes too long goes out the window because they are already doing a multi difficulty mode in raids now. It also gives easy mode a foothold to make that argument. Raids are the most challenging content. Fine then make them super challenging then , but then only 1% can do the content, but that’s ok, because they are not designed to be accessible by everyone. That’s why raids are in the game right? The hardest most challenging content to give the raiders the ultimate challenge? Is this not the case?

    You just ignored everything I said about how challenge modes are designed and balanced have you and the fact that they are limited to certain bosses?

  • Tyson.5160Tyson.5160 Member ✭✭✭✭
    We need both easy and hard modes

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Tyson.5160 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Tyson.5160 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Tyson.5160 said:
    I mean Crystal stated that raids should the most challenging content and time is not on their side with such a small team, why waste time developing different difficulty modes, make it all challenge mode.

    Depends on how much extra effort it takes to implement challenge modes and how difficult the base content is. Dhuum for one in wing 5 has no challenge mode. Neither do the escort events.

    The reason why challenge modes are not base difficulty was already explained, because that's not the target difficulty for that content.

    I think Dhuum has a Challenge Mode with a new mechanic. In terms of target difficulty content, I think Crystal stated that raids have to stay the most challenging content, which I would interpret as the Challenge Mode. That was what the Raid was created for wasn’t it? The most Challenging Instanced content? Make it super challenging then.

    Yes my bad, was distracted on that part.

    Raids are the most challenging content. How far this challenge gets pushed is for the developers to decide. If they decide that they want optional even challenger variations of the fights on top (similar to challenge mode fractals which do not provide more daily reward boxes as example) that's for them to decide.

    I don't see how this has anything to do with easy mode though. Saying raids could or should be even more difficult (especially when the implementation of challenge modes so far was mostly by tweaking some variables and not changing mechanics) is something completely different to having to implement easy mode. Especially when challenge modes are available for only a fraction of the raid content.

    @maxwelgm.4315 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Tyson.5160 said:
    I mean Crystal stated that raids should the most challenging content and time is not on their side with such a small team, why waste time developing different difficulty modes, make it all challenge mode.

    Depends on how much extra effort it takes to implement challenge modes and how difficult the base content is. Dhuum for one in wing 5 has no challenge mode. Neither do the escort events.

    The reason why challenge modes are not base difficulty was already explained, because that's not the target difficulty for that content.

    Are you sure Dhuum doesn't have a mote? I think people just can't complete it for whatever reason.

    Yes, my bad. Didn't check and the wiki is not yet up to date. I was only aware of the Soulless Horror CM since I haven't killed Dhuum yet but only up to him.

    The reason I bring it up is that I think it was a mistake to add the challenge mode in the first place because then any argument of making different tiered difficulties takes too long goes out the window because they are already doing a multi difficulty mode in raids now. It also gives easy mode a foothold to make that argument. Raids are the most challenging content. Fine then make them super challenging then , but then only 1% can do the content, but that’s ok, because they are not designed to be accessible by everyone. That’s why raids are in the game right? The hardest most challenging content to give the raiders the ultimate challenge? Is this not the case?

    You just ignored everything I said about how challenge modes are designed and balanced have you and the fact that they are limited to certain bosses?

    Then stick to one mode make it extremely difficult end of story.