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Do raids need easy/normal/hard difficulty mode? [merged]

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  • Tyson.5160Tyson.5160 Member ✭✭✭✭
    We need both easy and hard modes

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Tyson.5160 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Tyson.5160 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Tyson.5160 said:
    I mean Crystal stated that raids should the most challenging content and time is not on their side with such a small team, why waste time developing different difficulty modes, make it all challenge mode.

    Depends on how much extra effort it takes to implement challenge modes and how difficult the base content is. Dhuum for one in wing 5 has no challenge mode. Neither do the escort events.

    The reason why challenge modes are not base difficulty was already explained, because that's not the target difficulty for that content.

    I think Dhuum has a Challenge Mode with a new mechanic. In terms of target difficulty content, I think Crystal stated that raids have to stay the most challenging content, which I would interpret as the Challenge Mode. That was what the Raid was created for wasn’t it? The most Challenging Instanced content? Make it super challenging then.

    Yes my bad, was distracted on that part.

    Raids are the most challenging content. How far this challenge gets pushed is for the developers to decide. If they decide that they want optional even challenger variations of the fights on top (similar to challenge mode fractals which do not provide more daily reward boxes as example) that's for them to decide.

    I don't see how this has anything to do with easy mode though. Saying raids could or should be even more difficult (especially when the implementation of challenge modes so far was mostly by tweaking some variables and not changing mechanics) is something completely different to having to implement easy mode. Especially when challenge modes are available for only a fraction of the raid content.

    @maxwelgm.4315 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Tyson.5160 said:
    I mean Crystal stated that raids should the most challenging content and time is not on their side with such a small team, why waste time developing different difficulty modes, make it all challenge mode.

    Depends on how much extra effort it takes to implement challenge modes and how difficult the base content is. Dhuum for one in wing 5 has no challenge mode. Neither do the escort events.

    The reason why challenge modes are not base difficulty was already explained, because that's not the target difficulty for that content.

    Are you sure Dhuum doesn't have a mote? I think people just can't complete it for whatever reason.

    Yes, my bad. Didn't check and the wiki is not yet up to date. I was only aware of the Soulless Horror CM since I haven't killed Dhuum yet but only up to him.

    The reason I bring it up is that I think it was a mistake to add the challenge mode in the first place because then any argument of making different tiered difficulties takes too long goes out the window because they are already doing a multi difficulty mode in raids now. It also gives easy mode a foothold to make that argument. Raids are the most challenging content. Fine then make them super challenging then , but then only 1% can do the content, but that’s ok, because they are not designed to be accessible by everyone. That’s why raids are in the game right? The hardest most challenging content to give the raiders the ultimate challenge? Is this not the case?

    You just ignored everything I said about how challenge modes are designed and balanced have you and the fact that they are limited to certain bosses?

    Yeah but, you don’t know how they are designed and you don’t know how they balance them unless you are an Anet developer.

  • Astralporing.1957Astralporing.1957 Member ✭✭✭✭
    We need an easy mode, but not a hard mode

    @Cyninja.2954 said:
    So if you are against exclusives in raids, you must favor for arenanet to increase the gold/wealth reward substantially then.

    I've already said in many threads that i do feel those rewards are lacking wealth-wise.

    @Cyninja.2954 said:
    We are currently at around 20g/hour for raids if you complete wings 1-4 in around 2 hours. That's already behind RIBA in Siverwastes which is around 30-40 gold per hour without a weekly lockout. Should we increase gold rewards for raids to around 300-400 gold per hour then(weekly lockouts, most challenging pve content, etc.)?

    No, why? Let me quote what i said again:

    Basically, you'd want the mode to have enough rewards for the people playing it for fun to not feel like they are losing out, but not enough to actually make it a main reason for playing it

    You might find a few people thinking that RIBA is fun, but i doubt there's more than a handful of them. All the rest play it just for loot, and nothing more. As soon as a new farm with better output will appear, they will move on without feeling any sort of sentiment for the abandoned content they used to play. That's not what you'd want for Raids if you care for them.

    What would be a sufficient gold reward motivator in your opinion to keep the mode relevant when moving away from exclusives?

    Hard to say. I would avoid balancing it around speedrunning, and week-long gains, but at the same time repeat kill rewards do need some look-over. People that are going against a boss they've already killed this week should, at the very minimum, not be losing out on it (after factoring things like food costs).
    I'd definitely feel okay with doubling (maybe even tripling) weekly boss kill rewards (not necessarily equally - the last bosses in the wing might get a bigger increase than first bosses/events). CMs should definitely get a repeat run rewards as well (also on a weekly lockout). I'd also add wing clear weekly rewards, to encourage people to kill the last bosses instead of just repeating the easier ones. At the moment ufortunately can't think of an easy way to make repeat kills not feel unrewarding, without buffing the rewards to the point people might repeat-farm them, but those should be upped as well.

    The whole point of a social game is to play with the people you want to play with, not be forced to play with the people you don't.

  • Feanor.2358Feanor.2358 Member ✭✭✭✭
    Raids are fine the way they are, combining bosses of various difficulties

    @Torolan.5816 said:

    @Feanor.2358 said:

    @Astralporing.1957 said:
    Basically, you'd want the mode to have enough rewards for the people playing it for fun to not feel like they are losing out, but not enough to actually make it a main reason for playing it. Unless, of course, you don't really care for the content at all, and are in it for different reasons.

    You're looking at the problem from too close, at an individual level. You need to step back and look at the big picture. It's not about the motives of an individual player, it's about managing the population of the game mode. Again, dungeons. There are many people who like to play these for fun, but usually don't. Why? Because there aren't enough players out there. Because it's no fun to hang in LFG for half an hour. You don't only need to give motivations for players who are already interested, you need to draw enough people in to sustain the game mode by making it easy to play. Raids already have drawbacks in this respect by both being more challenging and requiring twice as many people. Hence, rewards. These are the universal motivator in games, especially in PvE.

    But that makes no sense.
    *You will seldomly hear from PvP players that PvP sucks because it has not much rewards, just look into the pvp section to see why it sucks. The answer is balance.
    *You will also seldomly hear that wvw sucks because it is rewarded even less then PvP. People, myself included, paid for keep upgrades. Huge sums to be honest. And the correct answer here is pirate ship meta, AoE, PvD and lack of love wvw gets from Anet.
    *You will sometimes hear the open world PvE is boring, easy and repetive. It is. But remember that the first world bosses are 5! years old and Anet has only upgraded them once at best. Everyone who is here from the start has done them a million times. Those were easy. Anet raised the bar a litte in the newer maps. If you fight your way through a bunch of elite/veteran white mantles with a cleric, a necro and an elementalist in their ranks all on yourself witrhout breaking a sweat gratulations, you´re a better player than I am.

    People played these modes for years despite neglect because they love them, not because they need them for the completion of X. There are a larger numver of mithril intruders or even knights in the server I fight against. Nobody becomes a mithril knight because he has to, you would have thrown the towel in multiple times if you had to make it without wanting that. I play wvw for about 3 out of 5 years(no interest for the first 2 years) and I am only a silver colonel.
    It sounds inherently wrong for me to support a game mode that needs icentives to lure those in who are wavering if they should do it or even worse cull in those who basically don´t want to but want the shinies. Wvw and PvP have proven that they have a leg to stand on even when they are badly neglected or have a small player base. Why can´t raids do the same?

    PvP in inherently easier to motivate people because of the competition. PvE will not get creative unlike players who you play against. World bosses aren't quite the same, too, being an open-world format. People hang around maps and gather. Others go there specifically for the world bosses, but they don't really go for the gameplay, they go for the social interaction. That won't work as well in raids because of the limited number of players, i.e. the social element is much limited. It only gets worse when you add actual challenge. World bosses attract so many players because you can beat them afk. The harder the content gets, the more reluctant the casual players become because nobody likes to hug the floor 24/7. You need to account for all that when creating PvE content. And ANet has.

  • Vulf.3098Vulf.3098 Member ✭✭✭
    edited December 18, 2017
    Raids are fine the way they are, combining bosses of various difficulties

    Well since the old forums got deleted I can not find the post but they already said they do not want raids to be a good gold source for players or the best way to get ascended gear. I agree with this concept because it breaks away from traditional MMO's of raids being the end all for the best gear and gold gain.

    I mean look at the weekly shard cap and the small amount of gold that drops from bosses (depends on rng with certain exotics and possible precursors). They finally nerfed 40 farm probably for the same reason so if you want to grind for gold there is RIBA, Lake Doric and Istan.

  • @Tyson.5160 said:
    The reason I bring it up is that I think it was a mistake to add the challenge mode in the first place because then any argument of making different tiered difficulties takes too long goes out the window because they are already doing a multi difficulty mode in raids now. It also gives easy mode a foothold to make that argument.

    You're glossing over the reason that different tiers of difficulty takes longer: designing niche content is quicker, because you can assume a minimum level of player skill. To create an "everyone mode" means worrying about lots of different levels of skill, plus figuring out what amounts to prestige-level rewards vs non-prestige. Adding a challenge mode increases the work of the devs, but not by nearly as much, because they can assume an even greater level of player skill.

    Raids are the most challenging content. Fine then make them super challenging then , but then only 1% can do the content, but that’s ok, because they are not designed to be accessible by everyone. That’s why raids are in the game right? The hardest most challenging content to give the raiders the ultimate challenge? Is this not the case?

    Again, you've glossed over the reasoning. It's worth it for ANet to design content that was originally intended to appeal to 10-15% (although there's evidence that more people do some raiding). Designing only for the 1% would be too little to make it worth their time. Given that the 10-15% content exists, it's some extra work to add 1%-content on top of that.

    Further, you've glossed over the fact that CM doesn't exist for raids generally; just for specific encounters. Raids are generally designed for the 10-15%; a small fraction of that also includes a CM option. Similarly, out of 100 fractals variations, CM only exists for 2 (or if you want to narrow the focus to maps, only 2 of the 18).

    In effect, the game already includes an "anyone can do it" raid encounter: escort just takes 10 people who can work together effectively. (And it's really anyone because we've seen it done with non-raid players running non-meta builds with non-optimized comps.)

    In summary:

    • Niche content takes fewer resources to manage because it can make more assumptions about player abilities.
    • Adding CM to a few of the encounters adds work, but nominally, especially compared to widening the niche (which removes the advantage of designing for the niche).
    • There's already a wide variety of difficulty levels in the existing encounters, excluding CM.

    None of which is directly related to the OP's question of "do raids need an easy mode?" — that's been answered by ANet: it's moot. The point of raids is to be challenging content; easy mode makes them something other than 'raids'."

    Hype is the path to the dark side. Hype leads to unfulfilled expectations. Disappointment leads to anger. Anger leads to disgust. Disgust leads to "oh, new shinies! I'm back!"

  • Tyson.5160Tyson.5160 Member ✭✭✭✭
    We need both easy and hard modes

    @Illconceived Was Na.9781 said:

    @Tyson.5160 said:
    The reason I bring it up is that I think it was a mistake to add the challenge mode in the first place because then any argument of making different tiered difficulties takes too long goes out the window because they are already doing a multi difficulty mode in raids now. It also gives easy mode a foothold to make that argument.

    You're glossing over the reason that different tiers of difficulty takes longer: designing niche content is quicker, because you can assume a minimum level of player skill. To create an "everyone mode" means worrying about lots of different levels of skill, plus figuring out what amounts to prestige-level rewards vs non-prestige. Adding a challenge mode increases the work of the devs, but not by nearly as much, because they can assume an even greater level of player skill.

    Raids are the most challenging content. Fine then make them super challenging then , but then only 1% can do the content, but that’s ok, because they are not designed to be accessible by everyone. That’s why raids are in the game right? The hardest most challenging content to give the raiders the ultimate challenge? Is this not the case?

    Again, you've glossed over the reasoning. It's worth it for ANet to design content that was originally intended to appeal to 10-15% (although there's evidence that more people do some raiding). Designing only for the 1% would be too little to make it worth their time. Given that the 10-15% content exists, it's some extra work to add 1%-content on top of that.

    Further, you've glossed over the fact that CM doesn't exist for raids generally; just for specific encounters. Raids are generally designed for the 10-15%; a small fraction of that also includes a CM option. Similarly, out of 100 fractals variations, CM only exists for 2 (or if you want to narrow the focus to maps, only 2 of the 18).

    In effect, the game already includes an "anyone can do it" raid encounter: escort just takes 10 people who can work together effectively. (And it's really anyone because we've seen it done with non-raid players running non-meta builds with non-optimized comps.)

    In summary:

    • Niche content takes fewer resources to manage because it can make more assumptions about player abilities.
    • Adding CM to a few of the encounters adds work, but nominally, especially compared to widening the niche (which removes the advantage of designing for the niche).
    • There's already a wide variety of difficulty levels in the existing encounters, excluding CM.

    None of which is directly related to the OP's question of "do raids need an easy mode?" — that's been answered by ANet: it's moot. The point of raids is to be challenging content; easy mode makes them something other than 'raids'."

    I get what your saying, but why have the challenge mode at all, it seems that it’s additional develop time that doesn’t need to be. Make the raid itself very challenging. Where it would take even the best a couple weeks to world first clear not in the first couple of days. I don’t have numbers for how big the raiding community is, but let’s just say 10 to 15% wouldn’t that excite the raiding community to know there is a super challenging fight where let’s give it a better success ratio of 5% that will complete it?

  • Torolan.5816Torolan.5816 Member ✭✭✭

    While it is probably true what you wrote, that still does not explain why Anet sees the need to lure people into a content or just make said content. If the content was not weak on it´s own, that measure would not be necessary.

    I work in the education sector, so I am often in the position of bringing the unwilling children together with their parents and their peer group.
    Motivations are intrinsic and extrinsic. Intrinsic motivation is multiple times stronger and more lasting than extrinsic because they arose from the person itself as a subconscious or sometimes conscious decision where the own abilites could be.
    Of course you can extrinsically motivate people to do something, like children who are forced to play piano because their parents heard that it is good for the hand-eye coordination. It is good for it, but it also produces a big share of people who hate the piano and play it only so long until they find the resolve to tell their parents that they still hate it like on day 1 and want out. I often ask parents if they think that this was worth it, and most can´t give me a concrete answer. If they had instead asked their children what they want to do and let them chose out of a few opportunities, they would have spared themselves all the drama and a child that has the same hand-eye coordination because it is a drummer and not a piano player.
    It is also not true that every children likes all other children or wants to play with them. Some are loners by hearth or just come to life when their friends are around.
    And the last but probably the most terrible education myth is that all children like to play finger games or get read out of a book. It is a majority, but not such a big majority that children who don´t like that are the odd man out.

    So the question remains:
    Why produce an unwilling piano player when you could have a happy drummer?

  • Feanor.2358Feanor.2358 Member ✭✭✭✭
    Raids are fine the way they are, combining bosses of various difficulties

    @Torolan.5816 said:
    While it is probably true what you wrote, that still does not explain why Anet sees the need to lure people into a content or just make said content. If the content was not weak on it´s own, that measure would not be necessary.

    Nope, that's wrong. Quality content (which raids are) will make players play it once. Replayability in PvE needs rewards.

  • STIHL.2489STIHL.2489 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Torolan.5816 said:
    While it is probably true what you wrote, that still does not explain why Anet sees the need to lure people into a content or just make said content. If the content was not weak on it´s own, that measure would not be necessary.

    I work in the education sector, so I am often in the position of bringing the unwilling children together with their parents and their peer group.
    Motivations are intrinsic and extrinsic. Intrinsic motivation is multiple times stronger and more lasting than extrinsic because they arose from the person itself as a subconscious or sometimes conscious decision where the own abilites could be.
    Of course you can extrinsically motivate people to do something, like children who are forced to play piano because their parents heard that it is good for the hand-eye coordination. It is good for it, but it also produces a big share of people who hate the piano and play it only so long until they find the resolve to tell their parents that they still hate it like on day 1 and want out. I often ask parents if they think that this was worth it, and most can´t give me a concrete answer. If they had instead asked their children what they want to do and let them chose out of a few opportunities, they would have spared themselves all the drama and a child that has the same hand-eye coordination because it is a drummer and not a piano player.
    It is also not true that every children likes all other children or wants to play with them. Some are loners by hearth or just come to life when their friends are around.
    And the last but probably the most terrible education myth is that all children like to play finger games or get read out of a book. It is a majority, but not such a big majority that children who don´t like that are the odd man out.

    So the question remains:
    Why produce an unwilling piano player when you could have a happy drummer?

    Let me sum this up for. "Challenging" PvE content sucks for everyone, and NO ONE, would do it unless they were given some massive reward for doing it.

  • Feanor.2358Feanor.2358 Member ✭✭✭✭
    Raids are fine the way they are, combining bosses of various difficulties

    @STIHL.2489 said:

    @Torolan.5816 said:
    While it is probably true what you wrote, that still does not explain why Anet sees the need to lure people into a content or just make said content. If the content was not weak on it´s own, that measure would not be necessary.

    I work in the education sector, so I am often in the position of bringing the unwilling children together with their parents and their peer group.
    Motivations are intrinsic and extrinsic. Intrinsic motivation is multiple times stronger and more lasting than extrinsic because they arose from the person itself as a subconscious or sometimes conscious decision where the own abilites could be.
    Of course you can extrinsically motivate people to do something, like children who are forced to play piano because their parents heard that it is good for the hand-eye coordination. It is good for it, but it also produces a big share of people who hate the piano and play it only so long until they find the resolve to tell their parents that they still hate it like on day 1 and want out. I often ask parents if they think that this was worth it, and most can´t give me a concrete answer. If they had instead asked their children what they want to do and let them chose out of a few opportunities, they would have spared themselves all the drama and a child that has the same hand-eye coordination because it is a drummer and not a piano player.
    It is also not true that every children likes all other children or wants to play with them. Some are loners by hearth or just come to life when their friends are around.
    And the last but probably the most terrible education myth is that all children like to play finger games or get read out of a book. It is a majority, but not such a big majority that children who don´t like that are the odd man out.

    So the question remains:
    Why produce an unwilling piano player when you could have a happy drummer?

    Let me sum this up for. "Challenging" PvE content sucks for everyone, and NO ONE, would do it unless they were given some massive reward for doing it.

    Hyperbole and exaggeration do not make your statements true.

  • Torolan.5816Torolan.5816 Member ✭✭✭

    I can´t really comment on the quality of raids for the whole population. The half of a dozen times or so I times was in a raid I only wasted my and many other peoples time and got bored very quickly by running against the same wall over and over again. To stay with my example, I was a bored piano player and came along on the later half of these raids because my friends asked me to join until I finally put a food down and urged them to seek a replacement.

    While I never really found the fun in raids, I am not so full of myself that I asume that most people are like me.

    Maybe we can settle with the idea that the replayability of raids is weak then? But this would push it in the same corner as ls1, which I personally found very good but many people did not. Basically fire and forget, too weak to stand on it´s own for long so that it has to reach for a chair quickly because it has no stamina?

  • STIHL.2489STIHL.2489 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited December 18, 2017

    @Feanor.2358 said:

    @STIHL.2489 said:

    @Torolan.5816 said:
    While it is probably true what you wrote, that still does not explain why Anet sees the need to lure people into a content or just make said content. If the content was not weak on it´s own, that measure would not be necessary.

    I work in the education sector, so I am often in the position of bringing the unwilling children together with their parents and their peer group.
    Motivations are intrinsic and extrinsic. Intrinsic motivation is multiple times stronger and more lasting than extrinsic because they arose from the person itself as a subconscious or sometimes conscious decision where the own abilites could be.
    Of course you can extrinsically motivate people to do something, like children who are forced to play piano because their parents heard that it is good for the hand-eye coordination. It is good for it, but it also produces a big share of people who hate the piano and play it only so long until they find the resolve to tell their parents that they still hate it like on day 1 and want out. I often ask parents if they think that this was worth it, and most can´t give me a concrete answer. If they had instead asked their children what they want to do and let them chose out of a few opportunities, they would have spared themselves all the drama and a child that has the same hand-eye coordination because it is a drummer and not a piano player.
    It is also not true that every children likes all other children or wants to play with them. Some are loners by hearth or just come to life when their friends are around.
    And the last but probably the most terrible education myth is that all children like to play finger games or get read out of a book. It is a majority, but not such a big majority that children who don´t like that are the odd man out.

    So the question remains:
    Why produce an unwilling piano player when you could have a happy drummer?

    Let me sum this up for. "Challenging" PvE content sucks for everyone, and NO ONE, would do it unless they were given some massive reward for doing it.

    Hyperbole and exaggeration do not make your statements true.

    true.. everyone saying the same thing does however.. case in point.

    @Feanor.2358 said:
    Believe it or not, the exclusive rewards are needed to keep the player population high enough. It's true for any game mode or content, really.

    And every single one of you has said something just like this.

    I just didn't sugar coat it

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited December 18, 2017
    Raids are fine the way they are, combining bosses of various difficulties

    @STIHL.2489 said:

    @Feanor.2358 said:

    @STIHL.2489 said:

    @Torolan.5816 said:
    While it is probably true what you wrote, that still does not explain why Anet sees the need to lure people into a content or just make said content. If the content was not weak on it´s own, that measure would not be necessary.

    I work in the education sector, so I am often in the position of bringing the unwilling children together with their parents and their peer group.
    Motivations are intrinsic and extrinsic. Intrinsic motivation is multiple times stronger and more lasting than extrinsic because they arose from the person itself as a subconscious or sometimes conscious decision where the own abilites could be.
    Of course you can extrinsically motivate people to do something, like children who are forced to play piano because their parents heard that it is good for the hand-eye coordination. It is good for it, but it also produces a big share of people who hate the piano and play it only so long until they find the resolve to tell their parents that they still hate it like on day 1 and want out. I often ask parents if they think that this was worth it, and most can´t give me a concrete answer. If they had instead asked their children what they want to do and let them chose out of a few opportunities, they would have spared themselves all the drama and a child that has the same hand-eye coordination because it is a drummer and not a piano player.
    It is also not true that every children likes all other children or wants to play with them. Some are loners by hearth or just come to life when their friends are around.
    And the last but probably the most terrible education myth is that all children like to play finger games or get read out of a book. It is a majority, but not such a big majority that children who don´t like that are the odd man out.

    So the question remains:
    Why produce an unwilling piano player when you could have a happy drummer?

    Let me sum this up for. "Challenging" PvE content sucks for everyone, and NO ONE, would do it unless they were given some massive reward for doing it.

    Hyperbole and exaggeration do not make your statements true.

    true.. everyone saying the same thing does however.. case in point.

    @Feanor.2358 said:
    Believe it or not, the exclusive rewards are needed to keep the player population high enough. It's true for any game mode or content, really.


    And every single one of you has said something just like this.

    I just didn't sugar coat it

    Let's remove rewards from open world pve, let's see how long the game survives. Same principle.

    Oh wait, pve modes and content which provides low rewards is being shunned already.

  • We need an easy mode, but not a hard mode

    Make raids easy and puggable or watch them die when no one plays them.

  • Feanor.2358Feanor.2358 Member ✭✭✭✭
    Raids are fine the way they are, combining bosses of various difficulties

    @STIHL.2489 said:

    @Feanor.2358 said:

    @STIHL.2489 said:

    @Torolan.5816 said:
    While it is probably true what you wrote, that still does not explain why Anet sees the need to lure people into a content or just make said content. If the content was not weak on it´s own, that measure would not be necessary.

    I work in the education sector, so I am often in the position of bringing the unwilling children together with their parents and their peer group.
    Motivations are intrinsic and extrinsic. Intrinsic motivation is multiple times stronger and more lasting than extrinsic because they arose from the person itself as a subconscious or sometimes conscious decision where the own abilites could be.
    Of course you can extrinsically motivate people to do something, like children who are forced to play piano because their parents heard that it is good for the hand-eye coordination. It is good for it, but it also produces a big share of people who hate the piano and play it only so long until they find the resolve to tell their parents that they still hate it like on day 1 and want out. I often ask parents if they think that this was worth it, and most can´t give me a concrete answer. If they had instead asked their children what they want to do and let them chose out of a few opportunities, they would have spared themselves all the drama and a child that has the same hand-eye coordination because it is a drummer and not a piano player.
    It is also not true that every children likes all other children or wants to play with them. Some are loners by hearth or just come to life when their friends are around.
    And the last but probably the most terrible education myth is that all children like to play finger games or get read out of a book. It is a majority, but not such a big majority that children who don´t like that are the odd man out.

    So the question remains:
    Why produce an unwilling piano player when you could have a happy drummer?

    Let me sum this up for. "Challenging" PvE content sucks for everyone, and NO ONE, would do it unless they were given some massive reward for doing it.

    Hyperbole and exaggeration do not make your statements true.

    true.. everyone saying the same thing does however.. case in point.

    Contrary to the popular opinion, something being popular doesn't make it true either. Also known as bandwagon fallacy. Furthermore, there is a pretty notable exception to the everyone saying it. Namely, the actual game developers. Should make you think about it, shouldn't it?

  • STIHL.2489STIHL.2489 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited December 18, 2017

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @STIHL.2489 said:

    @Feanor.2358 said:

    @STIHL.2489 said:

    @Torolan.5816 said:
    While it is probably true what you wrote, that still does not explain why Anet sees the need to lure people into a content or just make said content. If the content was not weak on it´s own, that measure would not be necessary.

    I work in the education sector, so I am often in the position of bringing the unwilling children together with their parents and their peer group.
    Motivations are intrinsic and extrinsic. Intrinsic motivation is multiple times stronger and more lasting than extrinsic because they arose from the person itself as a subconscious or sometimes conscious decision where the own abilites could be.
    Of course you can extrinsically motivate people to do something, like children who are forced to play piano because their parents heard that it is good for the hand-eye coordination. It is good for it, but it also produces a big share of people who hate the piano and play it only so long until they find the resolve to tell their parents that they still hate it like on day 1 and want out. I often ask parents if they think that this was worth it, and most can´t give me a concrete answer. If they had instead asked their children what they want to do and let them chose out of a few opportunities, they would have spared themselves all the drama and a child that has the same hand-eye coordination because it is a drummer and not a piano player.
    It is also not true that every children likes all other children or wants to play with them. Some are loners by hearth or just come to life when their friends are around.
    And the last but probably the most terrible education myth is that all children like to play finger games or get read out of a book. It is a majority, but not such a big majority that children who don´t like that are the odd man out.

    So the question remains:
    Why produce an unwilling piano player when you could have a happy drummer?

    Let me sum this up for. "Challenging" PvE content sucks for everyone, and NO ONE, would do it unless they were given some massive reward for doing it.

    Hyperbole and exaggeration do not make your statements true.

    true.. everyone saying the same thing does however.. case in point.

    @Feanor.2358 said:
    Believe it or not, the exclusive rewards are needed to keep the player population high enough. It's true for any game mode or content, really.


    And every single one of you has said something just like this.

    I just didn't sugar coat it

    Let's remove rewards from open world pve, let's see how long the game survives. Same principle.

    Oh wait, pve modes and content which provides low rewards is being shunned already.

    LOL, They already Tried that with Word Bosses, Killed the repeat loot farm, put them on daily timer, sunk the ability cross sever them, in some cases just made the loot overall worse.. and yet people still farm them, even the really poor loot ones like Maw. because.. they are fun.

    Word Bosses have stayed pretty sold over the years, because people enjoy them for what they are, large fun social events. While Every proponent for raids (you included) here openly already admitted, That without their exclusive rewards raids do not have the same kind of attraction or longevity.

    Might be because.. Challenging content sucks, even for the people that do it, and no one would bother with them without massive rewards attached.. because.. oh right.. challenging content sucks..

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭
    Raids are fine the way they are, combining bosses of various difficulties

    @STIHL.2489 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @STIHL.2489 said:

    @Feanor.2358 said:

    @STIHL.2489 said:

    @Torolan.5816 said:
    While it is probably true what you wrote, that still does not explain why Anet sees the need to lure people into a content or just make said content. If the content was not weak on it´s own, that measure would not be necessary.

    I work in the education sector, so I am often in the position of bringing the unwilling children together with their parents and their peer group.
    Motivations are intrinsic and extrinsic. Intrinsic motivation is multiple times stronger and more lasting than extrinsic because they arose from the person itself as a subconscious or sometimes conscious decision where the own abilites could be.
    Of course you can extrinsically motivate people to do something, like children who are forced to play piano because their parents heard that it is good for the hand-eye coordination. It is good for it, but it also produces a big share of people who hate the piano and play it only so long until they find the resolve to tell their parents that they still hate it like on day 1 and want out. I often ask parents if they think that this was worth it, and most can´t give me a concrete answer. If they had instead asked their children what they want to do and let them chose out of a few opportunities, they would have spared themselves all the drama and a child that has the same hand-eye coordination because it is a drummer and not a piano player.
    It is also not true that every children likes all other children or wants to play with them. Some are loners by hearth or just come to life when their friends are around.
    And the last but probably the most terrible education myth is that all children like to play finger games or get read out of a book. It is a majority, but not such a big majority that children who don´t like that are the odd man out.

    So the question remains:
    Why produce an unwilling piano player when you could have a happy drummer?

    Let me sum this up for. "Challenging" PvE content sucks for everyone, and NO ONE, would do it unless they were given some massive reward for doing it.

    Hyperbole and exaggeration do not make your statements true.

    true.. everyone saying the same thing does however.. case in point.

    @Feanor.2358 said:
    Believe it or not, the exclusive rewards are needed to keep the player population high enough. It's true for any game mode or content, really.


    And every single one of you has said something just like this.

    I just didn't sugar coat it

    Let's remove rewards from open world pve, let's see how long the game survives. Same principle.

    Oh wait, pve modes and content which provides low rewards is being shunned already.

    LOL, They already Tried that with Word Bosses, Killed the repeat loot farm, put them on daily timer, sunk the ability cross sever them, in some cases just made the loot overall worse.. and yet people still farm them, even the really poor loot ones like Maw. because.. they are fun.

    Word Bosses have stayed pretty sold over the years, because people enjoy them for what they are, large fun social events. While Every proponent for raids (you included) here openly already admitted, That without their exclusive rewards raids do not have the same kind of attraction or longevity.

    Might be because.. Challenging content sucks, even for the people that do it, and no one would bother with them without massive rewards attached.. because.. oh right.. challenging content sucks..

    That's why they had to revamp them multiple times and why people have to use the LFG tool to find full maps. Raid bosses are being run WAY less than before and those that get run are either part of a very lucrative meta or drop required items for legendarys (HoT world bosses).

  • STIHL.2489STIHL.2489 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited December 18, 2017

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @STIHL.2489 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @STIHL.2489 said:

    @Feanor.2358 said:

    @STIHL.2489 said:

    @Torolan.5816 said:
    While it is probably true what you wrote, that still does not explain why Anet sees the need to lure people into a content or just make said content. If the content was not weak on it´s own, that measure would not be necessary.

    I work in the education sector, so I am often in the position of bringing the unwilling children together with their parents and their peer group.
    Motivations are intrinsic and extrinsic. Intrinsic motivation is multiple times stronger and more lasting than extrinsic because they arose from the person itself as a subconscious or sometimes conscious decision where the own abilites could be.
    Of course you can extrinsically motivate people to do something, like children who are forced to play piano because their parents heard that it is good for the hand-eye coordination. It is good for it, but it also produces a big share of people who hate the piano and play it only so long until they find the resolve to tell their parents that they still hate it like on day 1 and want out. I often ask parents if they think that this was worth it, and most can´t give me a concrete answer. If they had instead asked their children what they want to do and let them chose out of a few opportunities, they would have spared themselves all the drama and a child that has the same hand-eye coordination because it is a drummer and not a piano player.
    It is also not true that every children likes all other children or wants to play with them. Some are loners by hearth or just come to life when their friends are around.
    And the last but probably the most terrible education myth is that all children like to play finger games or get read out of a book. It is a majority, but not such a big majority that children who don´t like that are the odd man out.

    So the question remains:
    Why produce an unwilling piano player when you could have a happy drummer?

    Let me sum this up for. "Challenging" PvE content sucks for everyone, and NO ONE, would do it unless they were given some massive reward for doing it.

    Hyperbole and exaggeration do not make your statements true.

    true.. everyone saying the same thing does however.. case in point.

    @Feanor.2358 said:
    Believe it or not, the exclusive rewards are needed to keep the player population high enough. It's true for any game mode or content, really.


    And every single one of you has said something just like this.

    I just didn't sugar coat it

    Let's remove rewards from open world pve, let's see how long the game survives. Same principle.

    Oh wait, pve modes and content which provides low rewards is being shunned already.

    LOL, They already Tried that with Word Bosses, Killed the repeat loot farm, put them on daily timer, sunk the ability cross sever them, in some cases just made the loot overall worse.. and yet people still farm them, even the really poor loot ones like Maw. because.. they are fun.

    Word Bosses have stayed pretty sold over the years, because people enjoy them for what they are, large fun social events. While Every proponent for raids (you included) here openly already admitted, That without their exclusive rewards raids do not have the same kind of attraction or longevity.

    Might be because.. Challenging content sucks, even for the people that do it, and no one would bother with them without massive rewards attached.. because.. oh right.. challenging content sucks..

    That's why they had to revamp them multiple times and why people have to use the LFG tool to find full maps. Raid bosses are being run WAY less than before and those that get run are either part of a very lucrative meta or drop required items for legendarys (HoT world bosses).

    yah crybabies wanting World Bosses to be harder.. and Anet discovered that challenging content sucks.. and has no longevity to it.

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭
    Raids are fine the way they are, combining bosses of various difficulties

    @STIHL.2489 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @STIHL.2489 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @STIHL.2489 said:

    @Feanor.2358 said:

    @STIHL.2489 said:

    @Torolan.5816 said:
    While it is probably true what you wrote, that still does not explain why Anet sees the need to lure people into a content or just make said content. If the content was not weak on it´s own, that measure would not be necessary.

    I work in the education sector, so I am often in the position of bringing the unwilling children together with their parents and their peer group.
    Motivations are intrinsic and extrinsic. Intrinsic motivation is multiple times stronger and more lasting than extrinsic because they arose from the person itself as a subconscious or sometimes conscious decision where the own abilites could be.
    Of course you can extrinsically motivate people to do something, like children who are forced to play piano because their parents heard that it is good for the hand-eye coordination. It is good for it, but it also produces a big share of people who hate the piano and play it only so long until they find the resolve to tell their parents that they still hate it like on day 1 and want out. I often ask parents if they think that this was worth it, and most can´t give me a concrete answer. If they had instead asked their children what they want to do and let them chose out of a few opportunities, they would have spared themselves all the drama and a child that has the same hand-eye coordination because it is a drummer and not a piano player.
    It is also not true that every children likes all other children or wants to play with them. Some are loners by hearth or just come to life when their friends are around.
    And the last but probably the most terrible education myth is that all children like to play finger games or get read out of a book. It is a majority, but not such a big majority that children who don´t like that are the odd man out.

    So the question remains:
    Why produce an unwilling piano player when you could have a happy drummer?

    Let me sum this up for. "Challenging" PvE content sucks for everyone, and NO ONE, would do it unless they were given some massive reward for doing it.

    Hyperbole and exaggeration do not make your statements true.

    true.. everyone saying the same thing does however.. case in point.

    @Feanor.2358 said:
    Believe it or not, the exclusive rewards are needed to keep the player population high enough. It's true for any game mode or content, really.


    And every single one of you has said something just like this.

    I just didn't sugar coat it

    Let's remove rewards from open world pve, let's see how long the game survives. Same principle.

    Oh wait, pve modes and content which provides low rewards is being shunned already.

    LOL, They already Tried that with Word Bosses, Killed the repeat loot farm, put them on daily timer, sunk the ability cross sever them, in some cases just made the loot overall worse.. and yet people still farm them, even the really poor loot ones like Maw. because.. they are fun.

    Word Bosses have stayed pretty sold over the years, because people enjoy them for what they are, large fun social events. While Every proponent for raids (you included) here openly already admitted, That without their exclusive rewards raids do not have the same kind of attraction or longevity.

    Might be because.. Challenging content sucks, even for the people that do it, and no one would bother with them without massive rewards attached.. because.. oh right.. challenging content sucks..

    That's why they had to revamp them multiple times and why people have to use the LFG tool to find full maps. Raid bosses are being run WAY less than before and those that get run are either part of a very lucrative meta or drop required items for legendarys (HoT world bosses).

    yah crybabies wanting World Bosses to be harder.. and Anet discovered that challenging content sucks.. and has no longevity to it.

    I was referring to the original world bosses which are being barely run now. Or story mode, or dungeons, or Tyria maps like Orr which are dead, or anything really that is not part of the most efficient farms.

  • Lambros Augustus.6594Lambros Augustus.6594 Member ✭✭✭
    edited December 18, 2017
    We need an easy mode, but not a hard mode

    Its so amusing to see my guilds daily message for the past what over a year now,

    Raids suspended till team is full again
    Interested in joining? Look at our forum post "Raid Team" .

    This is about as relevant as raids get. Cause the content is not accessible. I would seriously love to never hear about raids or fractals again if they rely on bad invisible mechanics and having a perfect connection with no lag cause even chat causes some lag.

  • GDchiaScrub.3241GDchiaScrub.3241 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited December 18, 2017
    Raids have problems, but we need a better solution

    You could have an "easy mode" (like storymode for dungeons anyone?), and a normal mode (explorable mode for dungeons anyone?), and maybe a fancy "hard" mode.

    You could also have it scale to the party size if that's any issue...along with rewards.

    GW1 had the benefit of Henchies/Heroes to fill the slots of people in case dwindling population making such modes playable for a while. And...normal mode/hard mode. Oh, and bonus objectives.

    Holy Warriors of [Kazo] following Kazo doctrine guided by, Our Lord and Commander, Zudo in the holy Trinity of Him and his two firm glutes.

  • Turin.6921Turin.6921 Member ✭✭✭
    edited December 18, 2017
    Raids are fine the way they are, combining bosses of various difficulties

    @Lambros Augustus.6594 said:
    Its so amusing to see my guilds daily message for the past what over a year now,

    Raids suspended till team is full again
    Interested in joining? Look at our forum post "Raid Team" .

    This is about as relevant as raids get. Cause the content is not accessible. I would seriously love to never hear about raids or fractals again if they rely on bad invisible mechanics and having a perfect connection with no lag cause even chat causes some lag.

    In most games raids are always played by 10-20% of the player-base. Thats how challenging content works. Just because it is not relevant for your guild it does not mean its true for the game. A niche game mode is still valuable for a game.

  • STIHL.2489STIHL.2489 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited December 18, 2017

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @STIHL.2489 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @STIHL.2489 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @STIHL.2489 said:

    @Feanor.2358 said:

    @STIHL.2489 said:

    @Torolan.5816 said:
    While it is probably true what you wrote, that still does not explain why Anet sees the need to lure people into a content or just make said content. If the content was not weak on it´s own, that measure would not be necessary.

    I work in the education sector, so I am often in the position of bringing the unwilling children together with their parents and their peer group.
    Motivations are intrinsic and extrinsic. Intrinsic motivation is multiple times stronger and more lasting than extrinsic because they arose from the person itself as a subconscious or sometimes conscious decision where the own abilites could be.
    Of course you can extrinsically motivate people to do something, like children who are forced to play piano because their parents heard that it is good for the hand-eye coordination. It is good for it, but it also produces a big share of people who hate the piano and play it only so long until they find the resolve to tell their parents that they still hate it like on day 1 and want out. I often ask parents if they think that this was worth it, and most can´t give me a concrete answer. If they had instead asked their children what they want to do and let them chose out of a few opportunities, they would have spared themselves all the drama and a child that has the same hand-eye coordination because it is a drummer and not a piano player.
    It is also not true that every children likes all other children or wants to play with them. Some are loners by hearth or just come to life when their friends are around.
    And the last but probably the most terrible education myth is that all children like to play finger games or get read out of a book. It is a majority, but not such a big majority that children who don´t like that are the odd man out.

    So the question remains:
    Why produce an unwilling piano player when you could have a happy drummer?

    Let me sum this up for. "Challenging" PvE content sucks for everyone, and NO ONE, would do it unless they were given some massive reward for doing it.

    Hyperbole and exaggeration do not make your statements true.

    true.. everyone saying the same thing does however.. case in point.

    @Feanor.2358 said:
    Believe it or not, the exclusive rewards are needed to keep the player population high enough. It's true for any game mode or content, really.


    And every single one of you has said something just like this.

    I just didn't sugar coat it

    Let's remove rewards from open world pve, let's see how long the game survives. Same principle.

    Oh wait, pve modes and content which provides low rewards is being shunned already.

    LOL, They already Tried that with Word Bosses, Killed the repeat loot farm, put them on daily timer, sunk the ability cross sever them, in some cases just made the loot overall worse.. and yet people still farm them, even the really poor loot ones like Maw. because.. they are fun.

    Word Bosses have stayed pretty sold over the years, because people enjoy them for what they are, large fun social events. While Every proponent for raids (you included) here openly already admitted, That without their exclusive rewards raids do not have the same kind of attraction or longevity.

    Might be because.. Challenging content sucks, even for the people that do it, and no one would bother with them without massive rewards attached.. because.. oh right.. challenging content sucks..

    That's why they had to revamp them multiple times and why people have to use the LFG tool to find full maps. Raid bosses are being run WAY less than before and those that get run are either part of a very lucrative meta or drop required items for legendarys (HoT world bosses).

    yah crybabies wanting World Bosses to be harder.. and Anet discovered that challenging content sucks.. and has no longevity to it.

    I was referring to the original world bosses which are being barely run now. Or story mode, or dungeons, or Tyria maps like Orr which are dead, or anything really that is not part of the most efficient farms.

    Just ran a Shatter and a Maw , had no problems pulling in a crowed of people.. including people with legendary items and weapons.

    Seem that need for "special" gear is limited just to hard content.. because it sucks and no one would do it otherwise.

    Want Screen shots.. gonna go a World Boss train now..

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭
    Raids are fine the way they are, combining bosses of various difficulties

    @STIHL.2489 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @STIHL.2489 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @STIHL.2489 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @STIHL.2489 said:

    @Feanor.2358 said:

    @STIHL.2489 said:

    @Torolan.5816 said:
    While it is probably true what you wrote, that still does not explain why Anet sees the need to lure people into a content or just make said content. If the content was not weak on it´s own, that measure would not be necessary.

    I work in the education sector, so I am often in the position of bringing the unwilling children together with their parents and their peer group.
    Motivations are intrinsic and extrinsic. Intrinsic motivation is multiple times stronger and more lasting than extrinsic because they arose from the person itself as a subconscious or sometimes conscious decision where the own abilites could be.
    Of course you can extrinsically motivate people to do something, like children who are forced to play piano because their parents heard that it is good for the hand-eye coordination. It is good for it, but it also produces a big share of people who hate the piano and play it only so long until they find the resolve to tell their parents that they still hate it like on day 1 and want out. I often ask parents if they think that this was worth it, and most can´t give me a concrete answer. If they had instead asked their children what they want to do and let them chose out of a few opportunities, they would have spared themselves all the drama and a child that has the same hand-eye coordination because it is a drummer and not a piano player.
    It is also not true that every children likes all other children or wants to play with them. Some are loners by hearth or just come to life when their friends are around.
    And the last but probably the most terrible education myth is that all children like to play finger games or get read out of a book. It is a majority, but not such a big majority that children who don´t like that are the odd man out.

    So the question remains:
    Why produce an unwilling piano player when you could have a happy drummer?

    Let me sum this up for. "Challenging" PvE content sucks for everyone, and NO ONE, would do it unless they were given some massive reward for doing it.

    Hyperbole and exaggeration do not make your statements true.

    true.. everyone saying the same thing does however.. case in point.

    @Feanor.2358 said:
    Believe it or not, the exclusive rewards are needed to keep the player population high enough. It's true for any game mode or content, really.


    And every single one of you has said something just like this.

    I just didn't sugar coat it

    Let's remove rewards from open world pve, let's see how long the game survives. Same principle.

    Oh wait, pve modes and content which provides low rewards is being shunned already.

    LOL, They already Tried that with Word Bosses, Killed the repeat loot farm, put them on daily timer, sunk the ability cross sever them, in some cases just made the loot overall worse.. and yet people still farm them, even the really poor loot ones like Maw. because.. they are fun.

    Word Bosses have stayed pretty sold over the years, because people enjoy them for what they are, large fun social events. While Every proponent for raids (you included) here openly already admitted, That without their exclusive rewards raids do not have the same kind of attraction or longevity.

    Might be because.. Challenging content sucks, even for the people that do it, and no one would bother with them without massive rewards attached.. because.. oh right.. challenging content sucks..

    That's why they had to revamp them multiple times and why people have to use the LFG tool to find full maps. Raid bosses are being run WAY less than before and those that get run are either part of a very lucrative meta or drop required items for legendarys (HoT world bosses).

    yah crybabies wanting World Bosses to be harder.. and Anet discovered that challenging content sucks.. and has no longevity to it.

    I was referring to the original world bosses which are being barely run now. Or story mode, or dungeons, or Tyria maps like Orr which are dead, or anything really that is not part of the most efficient farms.

    Just ran a Shatter and a Maw , had no problems pulling in a crowed of people.. including people with legendary items and weapons.

    Seem that need for "special" gear is limited just to hard content.. because it sucks and no one would do it otherwise.

    Want Screen shots.. gonna go a World Boss train now..

    You mean the bosses which back during vanilla had multiple maps running? I didn't say there weren't run at all, I said they are barely run which compared to vanilla numbers is a very accurate description.

  • STIHL.2489STIHL.2489 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @STIHL.2489 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @STIHL.2489 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @STIHL.2489 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @STIHL.2489 said:

    @Feanor.2358 said:

    @STIHL.2489 said:

    @Torolan.5816 said:
    While it is probably true what you wrote, that still does not explain why Anet sees the need to lure people into a content or just make said content. If the content was not weak on it´s own, that measure would not be necessary.

    I work in the education sector, so I am often in the position of bringing the unwilling children together with their parents and their peer group.
    Motivations are intrinsic and extrinsic. Intrinsic motivation is multiple times stronger and more lasting than extrinsic because they arose from the person itself as a subconscious or sometimes conscious decision where the own abilites could be.
    Of course you can extrinsically motivate people to do something, like children who are forced to play piano because their parents heard that it is good for the hand-eye coordination. It is good for it, but it also produces a big share of people who hate the piano and play it only so long until they find the resolve to tell their parents that they still hate it like on day 1 and want out. I often ask parents if they think that this was worth it, and most can´t give me a concrete answer. If they had instead asked their children what they want to do and let them chose out of a few opportunities, they would have spared themselves all the drama and a child that has the same hand-eye coordination because it is a drummer and not a piano player.
    It is also not true that every children likes all other children or wants to play with them. Some are loners by hearth or just come to life when their friends are around.
    And the last but probably the most terrible education myth is that all children like to play finger games or get read out of a book. It is a majority, but not such a big majority that children who don´t like that are the odd man out.

    So the question remains:
    Why produce an unwilling piano player when you could have a happy drummer?

    Let me sum this up for. "Challenging" PvE content sucks for everyone, and NO ONE, would do it unless they were given some massive reward for doing it.

    Hyperbole and exaggeration do not make your statements true.

    true.. everyone saying the same thing does however.. case in point.

    @Feanor.2358 said:
    Believe it or not, the exclusive rewards are needed to keep the player population high enough. It's true for any game mode or content, really.


    And every single one of you has said something just like this.

    I just didn't sugar coat it

    Let's remove rewards from open world pve, let's see how long the game survives. Same principle.

    Oh wait, pve modes and content which provides low rewards is being shunned already.

    LOL, They already Tried that with Word Bosses, Killed the repeat loot farm, put them on daily timer, sunk the ability cross sever them, in some cases just made the loot overall worse.. and yet people still farm them, even the really poor loot ones like Maw. because.. they are fun.

    Word Bosses have stayed pretty sold over the years, because people enjoy them for what they are, large fun social events. While Every proponent for raids (you included) here openly already admitted, That without their exclusive rewards raids do not have the same kind of attraction or longevity.

    Might be because.. Challenging content sucks, even for the people that do it, and no one would bother with them without massive rewards attached.. because.. oh right.. challenging content sucks..

    That's why they had to revamp them multiple times and why people have to use the LFG tool to find full maps. Raid bosses are being run WAY less than before and those that get run are either part of a very lucrative meta or drop required items for legendarys (HoT world bosses).

    yah crybabies wanting World Bosses to be harder.. and Anet discovered that challenging content sucks.. and has no longevity to it.

    I was referring to the original world bosses which are being barely run now. Or story mode, or dungeons, or Tyria maps like Orr which are dead, or anything really that is not part of the most efficient farms.

    Just ran a Shatter and a Maw , had no problems pulling in a crowed of people.. including people with legendary items and weapons.

    Seem that need for "special" gear is limited just to hard content.. because it sucks and no one would do it otherwise.

    Want Screen shots.. gonna go a World Boss train now..

    You mean the bosses which back during vanilla had multiple maps running? I didn't say there weren't run at all, I said they are barely run which compared to vanilla numbers is a very accurate description.

    Thh fact that I can just check a world boss timer.. and jump to whatever is active.. and have a bunch of people there to do it with.. shows they are still going just fine, unlike the outcry that unless there are "Unique special rewards" raids will die.

    I stand by what I first said.. and every single one of you has said the same thing.. I just didn't sugar coat it. No one likes challenging consent. they just want the rewards.

    Such a pitiful way to make game content.. and a ginormous step in the wrong direction for Anet.

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭
    Raids are fine the way they are, combining bosses of various difficulties

    @STIHL.2489 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @STIHL.2489 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @STIHL.2489 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @STIHL.2489 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @STIHL.2489 said:

    @Feanor.2358 said:

    @STIHL.2489 said:

    @Torolan.5816 said:
    While it is probably true what you wrote, that still does not explain why Anet sees the need to lure people into a content or just make said content. If the content was not weak on it´s own, that measure would not be necessary.

    I work in the education sector, so I am often in the position of bringing the unwilling children together with their parents and their peer group.
    Motivations are intrinsic and extrinsic. Intrinsic motivation is multiple times stronger and more lasting than extrinsic because they arose from the person itself as a subconscious or sometimes conscious decision where the own abilites could be.
    Of course you can extrinsically motivate people to do something, like children who are forced to play piano because their parents heard that it is good for the hand-eye coordination. It is good for it, but it also produces a big share of people who hate the piano and play it only so long until they find the resolve to tell their parents that they still hate it like on day 1 and want out. I often ask parents if they think that this was worth it, and most can´t give me a concrete answer. If they had instead asked their children what they want to do and let them chose out of a few opportunities, they would have spared themselves all the drama and a child that has the same hand-eye coordination because it is a drummer and not a piano player.
    It is also not true that every children likes all other children or wants to play with them. Some are loners by hearth or just come to life when their friends are around.
    And the last but probably the most terrible education myth is that all children like to play finger games or get read out of a book. It is a majority, but not such a big majority that children who don´t like that are the odd man out.

    So the question remains:
    Why produce an unwilling piano player when you could have a happy drummer?

    Let me sum this up for. "Challenging" PvE content sucks for everyone, and NO ONE, would do it unless they were given some massive reward for doing it.

    Hyperbole and exaggeration do not make your statements true.

    true.. everyone saying the same thing does however.. case in point.

    @Feanor.2358 said:
    Believe it or not, the exclusive rewards are needed to keep the player population high enough. It's true for any game mode or content, really.


    And every single one of you has said something just like this.

    I just didn't sugar coat it

    Let's remove rewards from open world pve, let's see how long the game survives. Same principle.

    Oh wait, pve modes and content which provides low rewards is being shunned already.

    LOL, They already Tried that with Word Bosses, Killed the repeat loot farm, put them on daily timer, sunk the ability cross sever them, in some cases just made the loot overall worse.. and yet people still farm them, even the really poor loot ones like Maw. because.. they are fun.

    Word Bosses have stayed pretty sold over the years, because people enjoy them for what they are, large fun social events. While Every proponent for raids (you included) here openly already admitted, That without their exclusive rewards raids do not have the same kind of attraction or longevity.

    Might be because.. Challenging content sucks, even for the people that do it, and no one would bother with them without massive rewards attached.. because.. oh right.. challenging content sucks..

    That's why they had to revamp them multiple times and why people have to use the LFG tool to find full maps. Raid bosses are being run WAY less than before and those that get run are either part of a very lucrative meta or drop required items for legendarys (HoT world bosses).

    yah crybabies wanting World Bosses to be harder.. and Anet discovered that challenging content sucks.. and has no longevity to it.

    I was referring to the original world bosses which are being barely run now. Or story mode, or dungeons, or Tyria maps like Orr which are dead, or anything really that is not part of the most efficient farms.

    Just ran a Shatter and a Maw , had no problems pulling in a crowed of people.. including people with legendary items and weapons.

    Seem that need for "special" gear is limited just to hard content.. because it sucks and no one would do it otherwise.

    Want Screen shots.. gonna go a World Boss train now..

    You mean the bosses which back during vanilla had multiple maps running? I didn't say there weren't run at all, I said they are barely run which compared to vanilla numbers is a very accurate description.

    Thh fact that I can just check a world boss timer.. and jump to whatever is active.. and have a bunch of people there to do it with.. shows they are still going just fine, unlike the outcry that unless there are "Unique special rewards" raids will die.

    I stand by what I first said.. and every single one of you has said the same thing.. I just didn't sugar coat it. No one likes challenging consent. they just want the rewards.

    Such a pitiful way to make game content.. and a ginormous step in the wrong direction for Anet.

    The post from Ben in the other thread about fractals would disagree with you.

    @Benjamin Arnold.3457 said:
    Obviously rewards are higher for tier 4 and CM than lower tiers, as more challenging content deserves higher rewards. If there is a fractal that is simply too difficult for you at tier 4, either try it at lower tiers, or skip it in the daily rotation. If you skip it we will see that in our metrics and it will inform our future decisions. People do skip shattered observatory and that has been informative to us.

    Further bickering in this thread will not sway our future decisions, as that is what we have metrics and collective feedback for (This thread has some good feedback, but also a lot of pointless posts)

    Obviously this applies to T4 fractals and their difficulty but the same arguments were made there: no one likes difficult content etc.

    Here's what it comes down to:

    • if raids do not work player population wise under the current design, they will see change
    • arenanet has enough metrics to decide how to continue making and designing raids
    • subjective assumptions and hearsay are worthless
    • you might disagree with the direction arenanet has taken raids and the game but be prepared to be in a minority (which I myself am too and if arenanet changes their approach to raids, I'll survive and continue to play the game just fine)

    Until then you really shouldn't scrutinize the work that the developers put into the game ("pitiful way to make game content"?) because quite frankly, you have absolutely 0 information about the game and the playerbase.

  • STIHL.2489STIHL.2489 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited December 18, 2017

    laughable and irrelevant

  • STIHL.2489STIHL.2489 Member ✭✭✭✭

    I'd love to continue on how wrong it is to design this way, as the necessity of rewards means the content sucks and no one would do it otherwise. But.. as I said.. doing world bosses, which.. even without special loot, people still enjoy doing. Which puts them in a pace of good game design that raids will NEVER reach.

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭
    Raids are fine the way they are, combining bosses of various difficulties

    @STIHL.2489 said:
    laughable and irrelevant
    @STIHL.2489 said:
    I'd love to continue on how wrong it is to design this way, as the necessity of rewards means the content sucks and no one would do it otherwise. But.. as I said.. doing world bosses, which.. even without special loot, people still enjoy doing. Which puts them in a pace of good game design that raids will NEVER reach.

    All I can say to your attitude and approach:

    God, grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change,
    Courage to change the things I can,
    And wisdom to know the difference.

    Reinhold Niebuhr

    Once you have your own MMORPG or game, you can make any decisions you want. Until then, even if not religious, that up there is sound advice.

  • katz.8376katz.8376 Member ✭✭✭

    well, given the topic for the last page or two i got curious...

    pics taken on the boss train today...





    still looks reasonably healthy attendance to me for a "dead game mode". yeah. some of the events are a little lighter than they used to be, but still got lots of people showing up

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭
    Raids are fine the way they are, combining bosses of various difficulties

    @katz.8376 said:
    still looks reasonably healthy attendance to me for a "dead game mode". yeah. some of the events are a little lighter than they used to be, but still got lots of people showing up

    Where exactly did you read the words "dead game mode"? I certainly did not use them. But thanks for providing picture evidence during prime time that some world boss events have grown "light" player wise.

  • STIHL.2489STIHL.2489 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Love or hate my attitude.. nothing changes the truth of my words.

  • STIHL.2489STIHL.2489 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited December 19, 2017

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @katz.8376 said:
    still looks reasonably healthy attendance to me for a "dead game mode". yeah. some of the events are a little lighter than they used to be, but still got lots of people showing up

    Where exactly did you read the words "dead game mode"? I certainly did not use them. But thanks for providing picture evidence during prime time that some world boss events have grown "light" player wise.

    Humm lets see.

    @Cyninja.2954 said:
    Let's remove rewards from open world pve, let's see how long the game survives. Same principle.
    Oh wait, pve modes and content which provides low rewards is being shunned already.

    Doesn't look shunned to me at all.. so You're WRONG.

    @Cyninja.2954 said:
    That's why they had to revamp them multiple times and why people have to use the LFG tool to find full maps. Raid bosses are being run WAY less than before and those that get run are either part of a very lucrative meta or drop required items for legendarys (HoT world bosses).

    Those look like typical world bosses.. not metas or HoT.. so.. You're WRONG again.

    @Cyninja.2954 said:
    I was referring to the original world bosses which are being barely run now. Or story mode, or dungeons, or Tyria maps like Orr which are dead, or anything really that is not part of the most efficient farms.

    That looks like a lot more then "barely".. so You're WRONG AGAIN.

    Might time to start accepting things.

  • katz.8376katz.8376 Member ✭✭✭

    and for giggles... one more

    the person i was grouped with ended up in a separate... also full... instance... both dragons instances were killed successfully

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭
    Raids are fine the way they are, combining bosses of various difficulties

    @katz.8376 said:
    and for giggles... one more

    the person i was grouped with ended up in a separate... also full... instance... both dragons instances were killed successfully

    Tequatle is the only world boss event without organization (Tripple Wurm being the other but requires a massive amount of coordination) which has a chance at providing directly ascended weapons as well as having very decent rewards. Basically goes to show that if the rewards are on par, people will show up.

  • We need an easy mode, but not a hard mode

    @Turin.6921 said:

    @Lambros Augustus.6594 said:
    Its so amusing to see my guilds daily message for the past what over a year now,

    Raids suspended till team is full again
    Interested in joining? Look at our forum post "Raid Team" .

    This is about as relevant as raids get. Cause the content is not accessible. I would seriously love to never hear about raids or fractals again if they rely on bad invisible mechanics and having a perfect connection with no lag cause even chat causes some lag.

    In most games raids are always played by 10-20% of the player-base. Thats how challenging content works. Just because it is not relevant for your guild it does not mean its true for the game. A niche game mode is still valuable for a game.

    So we dealing in tenths or fifths of the games total population thats willing to go thru all the hoops, deaths and can see the invisible mechanics that I cant. Even with 2 people against Vale Guardian, I cant see that teleport. And beating a boss nowadays requires passing a book report first. NO THANKS.

  • flog.3485flog.3485 Member ✭✭✭
    Raids are fine the way they are, combining bosses of various difficulties

    @katz.8376 said:
    and for giggles... one more

    the person i was grouped with ended up in a separate... also full... instance... both dragons instances were killed successfully

    It is no wonder that they are still people running these world bosses. They are set in lvling zones. That is where all the F2P players will be having fun without having to pay for the game.

    It is also an outdated content. But the thing you are certainly not getting a lot of gold by farming them. You really get a lot of karma, which is much more important in lvling.

  • Torolan.5816Torolan.5816 Member ✭✭✭

    Tequatl is a very good example of a content I found fun when it was new, newish and dated. Skins are good from Tequatl and 3 headed wurm, the accessibility is very good too. I stopped doing it when it was really dated and because there did not come out soup for that large number of spoons I gathered. Anet did not follow this idea and put the foot down on staying accessible and unique sadly, it was basically the last huraah of classic GW2 in my opinion.

    Beside the rewards, it is also a very good event in itself with lots of variables. The intro of Tequatl himself is nice, just think about how the small tower crumbles when he jumps on it. Revised shatterer is a weaker event for some reason that evades me, it is just not so much fun. If you would revise the older events in a similar way or if you did not make things like dragons stand a 2 hour affair, I am pretty positive that raids would not even have been in question of doing. Just look how many people do winewrath.

  • Feanor.2358Feanor.2358 Member ✭✭✭✭
    Raids are fine the way they are, combining bosses of various difficulties

    @Torolan.5816 said:
    Tequatl is a very good example of a content I found fun when it was new, newish and dated. Skins are good from Tequatl and 3 headed wurm, the accessibility is very good too. I stopped doing it when it was really dated and because there did not come out soup for that large number of spoons I gathered. Anet did not follow this idea and put the foot down on staying accessible and unique sadly, it was basically the last huraah of classic GW2 in my opinion.

    Beside the rewards, it is also a very good event in itself with lots of variables. The intro of Tequatl himself is nice, just think about how the small tower crumbles when he jumps on it. Revised shatterer is a weaker event for some reason that evades me, it is just not so much fun. If you would revise the older events in a similar way or if you did not make things like dragons stand a 2 hour affair, I am pretty positive that raids would not even have been in question of doing. Just look how many people do winewrath.

    Let me say this that way - Tequatl is great when you have 50-100 hours in the game. It's easy, accessible content. But it gets boring after that. At 1k hours you've played it time and again and you've realized nothing ever changes. You jump some waves, you kill some minions, you go back to the shore, press '1' and afk. Because you know your performance doesn't matter in the slightest. No matter how great or how bad you are, Teq is still going down, there's even no real difference in the time it takes. It might be fine for many players. But not for all of them. There are also those who want their performance to matter. These are the players who asked for raids. They would have anyway, because accessible content can't give them that by definition.

  • Torolan.5816Torolan.5816 Member ✭✭✭

    @Feanor.2358 said:

    @Torolan.5816 said:
    Tequatl is a very good example of a content I found fun when it was new, newish and dated. Skins are good from Tequatl and 3 headed wurm, the accessibility is very good too. I stopped doing it when it was really dated and because there did not come out soup for that large number of spoons I gathered. Anet did not follow this idea and put the foot down on staying accessible and unique sadly, it was basically the last huraah of classic GW2 in my opinion.

    Beside the rewards, it is also a very good event in itself with lots of variables. The intro of Tequatl himself is nice, just think about how the small tower crumbles when he jumps on it. Revised shatterer is a weaker event for some reason that evades me, it is just not so much fun. If you would revise the older events in a similar way or if you did not make things like dragons stand a 2 hour affair, I am pretty positive that raids would not even have been in question of doing. Just look how many people do winewrath.

    Let me say this that way - Tequatl is great when you have 50-100 hours in the game. It's easy, accessible content. But it gets boring after that. At 1k hours you've played it time and again and you've realized nothing ever changes. You jump some waves, you kill some minions, you go back to the shore, press '1' and afk. Because you know your performance doesn't matter in the slightest. No matter how great or how bad you are, Teq is still going down, there's even no real difference in the time it takes. It might be fine for many players. But not for all of them. There are also those who want their performance to matter. These are the players who asked for raids. They would have anyway, because accessible content can't give them that by definition.

    That proves to me that you did not do it when it was new. it was in no way sure that Tequatl would go down, it is not sure that the wurms go down today. The first kill of Tequatl was a pretty big deal only the big servers had a choice to manage. I am close to 13K hours played and would play it again today. In fact i come from Claw of Jormag right now which I joined just because I could.

    I admit and won´t even pretend that I have much patience and understanding with those who are addicted to adrenaline rushes and have to pull everyone else with them because their numbers are too small to justify a content for their desire. I am not sure if it is the fault of Anet that they caved in or if I simply underestimate the number of said rushers.

    You could of course justify a counter to said caving in by saying that Anet has numbers to back them up. They have. But on the other hand, have you ever heard of the WWE? It is a monopoly in wrestling, no other company is as big as the WWE in that sector. They can get away with a lot of skritt because no other federation can make them pay for being slow, safe and lazy for the sake of their shareholders. Their Nielsen rating is abysmally low compared to a rating 10 years ago, even in the relation of the demise of conventional TV. They live on by being diverse and the goodwill of the last hardcore fans who finance the barebone business and hope for some dollars of the fickle casual crowd.
    Anet is not such a monopolist. It is a small federation like RoH who has to stand out of all the indies by quality product. Only a handful of the few fans of RoH would even consider buying a PpV(Pay per View) event, so they make mainly IPvPs(Internet Pay per Views). If Anet fails to do that and makes more and more of the federation a PpV and tries to be like every other game, it will fail rather sooner than later.

  • Feanor.2358Feanor.2358 Member ✭✭✭✭
    Raids are fine the way they are, combining bosses of various difficulties

    @Torolan.5816 said:
    I admit and won´t even pretend that I have much patience and understanding with those who are addicted to adrenaline rushes and have to pull everyone else with them because their numbers are too small to justify a content for their desire. I am not sure if it is the fault of Anet that they caved in or if I simply underestimate the number of said rushers.

    I think you're misjudging several factors.

    First, ANet keeps their focus primarily on the casual side. LW updates, new maps, story, etc. We get these more frequently than we get fractals or raids. So you're overestimating their effort here. They chose to spend some resources in order to have a more diverse game, offering something for a larger population.

    Next, you're underestimating the impact of "said rushers". Generally speaking, these are what the most involved people look like. Sure, there will be exceptions that are happy to spent 13k hours in the open world, but they are just this - exceptions. Involved people tend to talk more, and more passionately about the game, hence they are most likely to draw new players in. Hence the importance of keeping them in the game. Their absolute numbers aren't that important, but their impact on the game is.

  • Tyson.5160Tyson.5160 Member ✭✭✭✭
    We need both easy and hard modes

    @Feanor.2358 said:

    @Torolan.5816 said:
    I admit and won´t even pretend that I have much patience and understanding with those who are addicted to adrenaline rushes and have to pull everyone else with them because their numbers are too small to justify a content for their desire. I am not sure if it is the fault of Anet that they caved in or if I simply underestimate the number of said rushers.

    I think you're misjudging several factors.

    First, ANet keeps their focus primarily on the casual side. LW updates, new maps, story, etc. We get these more frequently than we get fractals or raids. So you're overestimating their effort here. They chose to spend some resources in order to have a more diverse game, offering something for a larger population.

    Next, you're underestimating the impact of "said rushers". Generally speaking, these are what the most involved people look like. Sure, there will be exceptions that are happy to spent 13k hours in the open world, but they are just this - exceptions. Involved people tend to talk more, and more passionately about the game, hence they are most likely to draw new players in. Hence the importance of keeping them in the game. Their absolute numbers aren't that important, but their impact on the game is.

    Mind you alot of these forum talks are about beliefs and not actual facts or hard data. Nothing that has any numbers mind you. Only Anet holds onto that Delicious double nut chocolate chunk cookie.

  • Turin.6921Turin.6921 Member ✭✭✭
    edited December 19, 2017
    Raids are fine the way they are, combining bosses of various difficulties

    @Lambros Augustus.6594 said:

    @Turin.6921 said:

    @Lambros Augustus.6594 said:
    Its so amusing to see my guilds daily message for the past what over a year now,

    Raids suspended till team is full again
    Interested in joining? Look at our forum post "Raid Team" .

    This is about as relevant as raids get. Cause the content is not accessible. I would seriously love to never hear about raids or fractals again if they rely on bad invisible mechanics and having a perfect connection with no lag cause even chat causes some lag.

    In most games raids are always played by 10-20% of the player-base. Thats how challenging content works. Just because it is not relevant for your guild it does not mean its true for the game. A niche game mode is still valuable for a game.

    So we dealing in tenths or fifths of the games total population thats willing to go thru all the hoops, deaths and can see the invisible mechanics that I cant. Even with 2 people against Vale Guardian, I cant see that teleport. And beating a boss nowadays requires passing a book report first. NO THANKS.

    Your inability to kill a boss does not really say much. Just like the fact that I find no problem with these same teleports in VG does not really prove anything either. The point is that a game mode does not need to played by 60% of the player-base to be valuable and relevant to the game. GW2 in general wants to keep players by providing several things for all playstyles from casual to challenging. That why you have WvW, sPvP Open world PvE and so on. A game mode is not dying if it is not played by the majority. Its dying if it is not played by the audience its indented for. And for raids that audience really likes it, thus it is quite successful in that respect.

    And even though the raiding community might be a minority it has relevance to the game. Raiders are playing a lot, often are paying customers since they invest on the game, add to marketing by streaming and add a lot in class understanding from theory crafting for PvE.

  • Torolan.5816Torolan.5816 Member ✭✭✭

    @Tyson.5160 said:

    @Feanor.2358 said:

    @Torolan.5816 said:
    I admit and won´t even pretend that I have much patience and understanding with those who are addicted to adrenaline rushes and have to pull everyone else with them because their numbers are too small to justify a content for their desire. I am not sure if it is the fault of Anet that they caved in or if I simply underestimate the number of said rushers.

    I think you're misjudging several factors.

    First, ANet keeps their focus primarily on the casual side. LW updates, new maps, story, etc. We get these more frequently than we get fractals or raids. So you're overestimating their effort here. They chose to spend some resources in order to have a more diverse game, offering something for a larger population.

    Next, you're underestimating the impact of "said rushers". Generally speaking, these are what the most involved people look like. Sure, there will be exceptions that are happy to spent 13k hours in the open world, but they are just this - exceptions. Involved people tend to talk more, and more passionately about the game, hence they are most likely to draw new players in. Hence the importance of keeping them in the game. Their absolute numbers aren't that important, but their impact on the game is.

    Mind you alot of these forum talks are about beliefs and not actual facts or hard data. Nothing that has any numbers mind you. Only Anet holds onto that Delicious double nut chocolate chunk cookie.

    As I already said, I don´t have numbers, Anet has.
    And they have the numbers, so they know how to proceed. Because no bigger company goes bancrupt and no project has ever tanked when it had numbers. Right? ;)

  • We need an easy mode, but not a hard mode

    @Turin.6921 said:

    @Lambros Augustus.6594 said:

    @Turin.6921 said:

    @Lambros Augustus.6594 said:
    Its so amusing to see my guilds daily message for the past what over a year now,

    Raids suspended till team is full again
    Interested in joining? Look at our forum post "Raid Team" .

    This is about as relevant as raids get. Cause the content is not accessible. I would seriously love to never hear about raids or fractals again if they rely on bad invisible mechanics and having a perfect connection with no lag cause even chat causes some lag.

    In most games raids are always played by 10-20% of the player-base. Thats how challenging content works. Just because it is not relevant for your guild it does not mean its true for the game. A niche game mode is still valuable for a game.

    So we dealing in tenths or fifths of the games total population thats willing to go thru all the hoops, deaths and can see the invisible mechanics that I cant. Even with 2 people against Vale Guardian, I cant see that teleport. And beating a boss nowadays requires passing a book report first. NO THANKS.

    Your inability to kill a boss does not really say much. Just like the fact that I find no problem with these same teleports in VG does not really prove anything either. The point is that a game mode does not need to played by 60% of the player-base to be valuable and relevant to the game. GW2 in general wants to keep players by providing several things for all playstyles from casual to challenging. That why you have WvW, sPvP Open world PvE and so on. A game mode is not dying if it is not played by the majority. Its dying if it is not played by the audience its indented for. And for raids that audience really likes it, thus it is quite successful in that respect.

    And even though the raiding community might be a minority it has relevance to the game. Raiders are playing a lot, often are paying customers since they invest on the game, add to marketing by streaming and add a lot in class understanding from theory crafting for PvE.

    So from a tenth to a fifth of all players now we are at 40%. I killed one VG boss two years ago after too many deaths now two years later I am bored and wanted to try it again after 12 deaths in a training group that also wanted to use distortion i reached my limit. I am just upset at not having new content accessible, rewards and ap are locked there. And all the rares dropping in Pof instead of silver or new rewards.

  • Turin.6921Turin.6921 Member ✭✭✭
    edited December 19, 2017
    Raids are fine the way they are, combining bosses of various difficulties

    @Lambros Augustus.6594 said:

    @Turin.6921 said:

    @Lambros Augustus.6594 said:

    @Turin.6921 said:

    @Lambros Augustus.6594 said:
    Its so amusing to see my guilds daily message for the past what over a year now,

    Raids suspended till team is full again
    Interested in joining? Look at our forum post "Raid Team" .

    This is about as relevant as raids get. Cause the content is not accessible. I would seriously love to never hear about raids or fractals again if they rely on bad invisible mechanics and having a perfect connection with no lag cause even chat causes some lag.

    In most games raids are always played by 10-20% of the player-base. Thats how challenging content works. Just because it is not relevant for your guild it does not mean its true for the game. A niche game mode is still valuable for a game.

    So we dealing in tenths or fifths of the games total population thats willing to go thru all the hoops, deaths and can see the invisible mechanics that I cant. Even with 2 people against Vale Guardian, I cant see that teleport. And beating a boss nowadays requires passing a book report first. NO THANKS.

    Your inability to kill a boss does not really say much. Just like the fact that I find no problem with these same teleports in VG does not really prove anything either. The point is that a game mode does not need to played by 60% of the player-base to be valuable and relevant to the game. GW2 in general wants to keep players by providing several things for all playstyles from casual to challenging. That why you have WvW, sPvP Open world PvE and so on. A game mode is not dying if it is not played by the majority. Its dying if it is not played by the audience its indented for. And for raids that audience really likes it, thus it is quite successful in that respect.

    And even though the raiding community might be a minority it has relevance to the game. Raiders are playing a lot, often are paying customers since they invest on the game, add to marketing by streaming and add a lot in class understanding from theory crafting for PvE.

    So from a tenth to a fifth of all players now we are at 40%. I killed one VG boss two years ago after too many deaths now two years later I am bored and wanted to try it again after 12 deaths in a training group that also wanted to use distortion i reached my limit. I am just upset at not having new content accessible, rewards and ap are locked there. And all the rares dropping in Pof instead of silver or new rewards.

    The 60% was a figure of speech implying majority, i thought that was clear. But i guess we are not talking like adults here i see.

    Secondly if you just want to play new content because you are bored and the open world and LS is not enough i have bad news for you. Raids are not for you. Raids get re-playability through challenge. If you are not having fun by the process of learning the bosses and the wipes then you do not want to raid. Thats the audience it is intended for. In the end of the day exactly because its a minority it is also supported much less than all other PvE stuff and gets much less content updates (which is fully understandable). Thus its not the suitable game mode to satisfy the need for constant new updates.

    Asking for easy modes will not solve your problem. Raids are replayable because they are challenging and have RNG elements that keep the experience fresh. An easy mode will not have that, you will get bored even quicker than you were from open PvE and it would screw the ppl that enjoy the hard mode by splitting the community and causing more infrequent updates from the extra development effort needed for multiple difficulties.

    If lack of content is your issue then you are barking up the wrong tree.

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭
    Raids are fine the way they are, combining bosses of various difficulties

    @Lambros Augustus.6594 said:

    @Turin.6921 said:

    @Lambros Augustus.6594 said:

    @Turin.6921 said:

    @Lambros Augustus.6594 said:
    Its so amusing to see my guilds daily message for the past what over a year now,

    Raids suspended till team is full again
    Interested in joining? Look at our forum post "Raid Team" .

    This is about as relevant as raids get. Cause the content is not accessible. I would seriously love to never hear about raids or fractals again if they rely on bad invisible mechanics and having a perfect connection with no lag cause even chat causes some lag.

    In most games raids are always played by 10-20% of the player-base. Thats how challenging content works. Just because it is not relevant for your guild it does not mean its true for the game. A niche game mode is still valuable for a game.

    So we dealing in tenths or fifths of the games total population thats willing to go thru all the hoops, deaths and can see the invisible mechanics that I cant. Even with 2 people against Vale Guardian, I cant see that teleport. And beating a boss nowadays requires passing a book report first. NO THANKS.

    Your inability to kill a boss does not really say much. Just like the fact that I find no problem with these same teleports in VG does not really prove anything either. The point is that a game mode does not need to played by 60% of the player-base to be valuable and relevant to the game. GW2 in general wants to keep players by providing several things for all playstyles from casual to challenging. That why you have WvW, sPvP Open world PvE and so on. A game mode is not dying if it is not played by the majority. Its dying if it is not played by the audience its indented for. And for raids that audience really likes it, thus it is quite successful in that respect.

    And even though the raiding community might be a minority it has relevance to the game. Raiders are playing a lot, often are paying customers since they invest on the game, add to marketing by streaming and add a lot in class understanding from theory crafting for PvE.

    So from a tenth to a fifth of all players now we are at 40%. I killed one VG boss two years ago after too many deaths now two years later I am bored and wanted to try it again after 12 deaths in a training group that also wanted to use distortion i reached my limit. I am just upset at not having new content accessible, rewards and ap are locked there. And all the rares dropping in Pof instead of silver or new rewards.

    12 tries? I think it took us almost an entire week to get past VG back when it got introduced with 2 hours per evening (and when doing practice runs it still take a while to get new people to understand the fight even with half a squad of experienced raiders helping out).

    Boss 1 in wing 5 took me 4.5 hours of tries to get a first kill on (with PUGs) and the required LI was 250+ (though I'm at 500+). Raids are not meant for people to "go in, grab loot, leave". That's only the result of hours and hours of training and experience which experienced raiders have.

    Look at how much time even top end guilds had to invest to kill Dhuum or clear wing 5.

    If you are serious about raids and are having a tough time with VG, join for escort or Wing 4, those are considered the easiest fights to get into raiding. Then move on from there and once again I'll repeat what I've said so many time: make friends and join a guild. This is a MMORPG, not a single player game.

  • STIHL.2489STIHL.2489 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Feanor.2358 said:

    @STIHL.2489 said:
    Love or hate my attitude.. nothing changes the truth of my words.

    Or their lack of.

    Humm and yet, I don't recall you being able to rebuke or find flaw with any point I have made yet. Hence the pointless quips like this.

  • Astralporing.1957Astralporing.1957 Member ✭✭✭✭
    We need an easy mode, but not a hard mode

    @Feanor.2358 said:
    Nope, that's wrong. Quality content (which raids are) will make players play it once. Replayability in PvE needs rewards.

    There is a big difference between using rewards to keep people playing the content, and using them to lure people into the content. The former is completely normal and okay, but that's not what we see with raids.

    The whole point of a social game is to play with the people you want to play with, not be forced to play with the people you don't.

  • We need an easy mode, but not a hard mode

    Your raid time is over cause we only getting yellow rares in pve, we have had enough of sitting on the sidelines while you talk about the wing of the week. Take a week to beat a boss, no uh uh, shouldnt take more than 10-15minutes. Am I talking like an adult as you put it Turin, well yes I am cause I am speaking with authority. The garbage mechanics from raids need to go bye bye, NOW.