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Do raids need easy/normal/hard difficulty mode? [merged]

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  • nia.4725nia.4725 Member ✭✭✭
    edited June 29, 2018
    Raids are fine the way they are, combining bosses of various difficulties

    @Feanor.2358 said:

    @nia.4725 said:

    @Ferelwing.8463 said:

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @mortrialus.3062 said:
    Literally every raider I know plays multi class and if they're heavy, for example will swap between power,condi, and hand kiter from fight to fight in a single night of raiding across three classes.

    I know a number of raiders like that (condi berserker, power dh, handkiting/healing rev, for example. Or weaver, chronotank, condi mirage, condi scourge, for an light armor example). None of them transfer armor sets between characters, even if they have a legendary (and most of them do have it). They all have separate characters for that, all with full gear.
    The only case of actual use of legendary armor i saw was on chronotank that was switching back and forth between commander and minstrel setup.

    Basically, changing stats is one thing. Transferring gear between characters and changing stats on top of it is way too much of a hassle for most people to actually do that. Eeven people with legendary gear usually just get an additional (ascended) set for that.

    I was trying to point out that the stat choices in PVE are binary. Before I set foot into WvW I thought the majority of the stat combinations were obsolete and useless. It surprised me that Anet even offered them because I couldn't figure out who would need them. It was either Condi or Zerkers. After stepping into WvW it was an eye-opener and I find myself experimenting with different stat combinations, the problem being that I'm still working on the Legendary set in WvW so having 3 toons that I play exclusively in WvW with several different ascended gear sets (based on what I will need based on server population and what kind of build is needed at the time..) has made a mess of my inventory and bank space. Legendary Armor will be a space saver!

    WvW and raids are completely different. Raids are instanced content played by a maximum of 10 people, so the stat choices are very limited; you need to compress as much as possible everything the squad needs (DPS, support, etc). A celestial DPS would not deal enough damage, and if DPS started using hybrid gear (gear half supportive half damage), things like dedicated healers like druid would become a waste. But druids not only give heals, you know. Druids are necessary because of the insane amount of utility and damage buffs they give, and that will never be covered by any hybrid or self-sufficient build. Same with chronos. I agree that it's sad that the build diversity in raids is so little, I really really do.

    Aw, come on. Raid meta is twice as diverse as the WvW one. 95% of everything you'll find in a WvW squad is Scourge, Firebrand and Spellbreaker.

    But WvW is not just zerging, you know. Roaming builds are much more diverse. And raid builds aren't diverse, you can't just come up with something completely unique and get it to be usefull. It's either a heal build, a boon build, a condi build or a condi build.

    Handkiter slave. / Cat Fletcher, Cho Jinri, Elettra Hart, Anima Schirmer, La Que Ama, B I T T E R N E S S

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited June 29, 2018
    Raids are fine the way they are, combining bosses of various difficulties

    @Ferelwing.8463 said:
    snip on wvw

    Not sure what serious wvw for you is. I have never seen ANY of those things get done (at least not on a regular basis to matter) in all 6 years of wvw. Not to mention that the Triumphant legendary armor has a requirement of 2k to get the full set and not 1.5k. You and I have had very different wvw experiences.

    Your second part is basically complaining that the pve one is faster to get if you can full clear and get all the raid fights handed to you. This point has been covered and I don't feel like rehashing all that again. Suffice to say the wvw one is nothing more than a matter of time, just like the spvp one. (and most serious wvw players had or were close to the 2k requirement anyway for the triumphant)

    @Ferelwing.8463 said:
    sPvP does change stats too but yeah not as much as perhaps WvW. I like that they have the option of trying new things before they start fighting in the arena though. It means should "cool changes happen" they can try them out faster, rather than having to leave go get pieces etc etc... Mystic forge.

    Not on gear so not sure what you are talking about. Spvp stats are strictly dictated by the amulet you use which you select free of charge in your build. Your items have literally 0 effect on your spvp build.

    @Ferelwing.8463 said:

    Most pve raiders have multiple sets, on multiple characters. Hell some even have multiple of the same character per build. By the time you get into your 2nd or 3rd legendary set you are swimming in ascended gear. No wonder people don't trade the legendary armor between characters. It's a huge hassle. That said build variety does exist sufficiently and highly optimized groups use this to improve their runs. The fact that raids are easy enough that you can run though most of them with your berserker Dragonhunter without ever having to adapt to bosses (other classes especially mesmer have to) is more attrbiuted to the easy difficulty of raids.

    I have one toon of each class and 2 toons of the classes I play the most. I'll probably have more later.... All of them have Ascended. The three I play the most I'm up to 5 sets of armor and it's an inventory space nightmare. I would LOVE to take that down to 1 that I could just change, but at the same time I want the pretty skin vs the boring exotic looking skin, so I'll wait.... I have enough patience to wait till 1.5k so I can get the better skin rather than just getting the "boring" one right now. As for the "multiple builds" If you're running a Mes or a Ranger I would tend to agree, but everything around the other classes is based on the highest output of damage so you're running either Zerkers or Condi based on whatever is stronger at the time. The only thing that tends to change is what runes/sigils and even then it doesn't change as often or as much as it does in WvW.

    Stats in wvw probably matter the most, if you don't consider the vast majority of pve plebs who just run along. For most of those it's all about get some points and leave.

    What does this tell us:
    Spvp is the game mode which most would benefit from a unique skin.
    Wvw is the game mode which most benefits from functionality.
    Pve is inbetween.

    Working as intended.

    WvW would like better skins. Actually it's something that comes up about every couple of weeks. We love our fashion wars just as much as the rest of the game. Oh and just in case you were wondering, I ran it by my wvw guild, we want pretty skins too and we love functionality that is absolutely the case but the fashion wars are REAL in WvW. We want our gear to be flashy AND functional.

    I agree Spvp should get some nicer skins too, PVE they have a LOT of nice skins and let's be honest here for PVE Legendaries are less of a "necessity and more of a choice"

    Yes because asking people if they would want more free stuff for no extra work will have people state they are fine with less. I'm still not seeing the skin necessity in wvw but I guess that's personal preference.

    Sure, 95% of all pve in this game doesn't even require exotic gear. The content which requires ascended or above is benefited by legendary variety quite a bit.

  • Feanor.2358Feanor.2358 Member ✭✭✭✭
    Raids are fine the way they are, combining bosses of various difficulties

    @nia.4725 said:

    @Feanor.2358 said:

    @nia.4725 said:

    @Ferelwing.8463 said:

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @mortrialus.3062 said:
    Literally every raider I know plays multi class and if they're heavy, for example will swap between power,condi, and hand kiter from fight to fight in a single night of raiding across three classes.

    I know a number of raiders like that (condi berserker, power dh, handkiting/healing rev, for example. Or weaver, chronotank, condi mirage, condi scourge, for an light armor example). None of them transfer armor sets between characters, even if they have a legendary (and most of them do have it). They all have separate characters for that, all with full gear.
    The only case of actual use of legendary armor i saw was on chronotank that was switching back and forth between commander and minstrel setup.

    Basically, changing stats is one thing. Transferring gear between characters and changing stats on top of it is way too much of a hassle for most people to actually do that. Eeven people with legendary gear usually just get an additional (ascended) set for that.

    I was trying to point out that the stat choices in PVE are binary. Before I set foot into WvW I thought the majority of the stat combinations were obsolete and useless. It surprised me that Anet even offered them because I couldn't figure out who would need them. It was either Condi or Zerkers. After stepping into WvW it was an eye-opener and I find myself experimenting with different stat combinations, the problem being that I'm still working on the Legendary set in WvW so having 3 toons that I play exclusively in WvW with several different ascended gear sets (based on what I will need based on server population and what kind of build is needed at the time..) has made a mess of my inventory and bank space. Legendary Armor will be a space saver!

    WvW and raids are completely different. Raids are instanced content played by a maximum of 10 people, so the stat choices are very limited; you need to compress as much as possible everything the squad needs (DPS, support, etc). A celestial DPS would not deal enough damage, and if DPS started using hybrid gear (gear half supportive half damage), things like dedicated healers like druid would become a waste. But druids not only give heals, you know. Druids are necessary because of the insane amount of utility and damage buffs they give, and that will never be covered by any hybrid or self-sufficient build. Same with chronos. I agree that it's sad that the build diversity in raids is so little, I really really do.

    Aw, come on. Raid meta is twice as diverse as the WvW one. 95% of everything you'll find in a WvW squad is Scourge, Firebrand and Spellbreaker.

    But WvW is not just zerging, you know. Roaming builds are much more diverse. And raid builds aren't diverse, you can't just come up with something completely unique and get it to be usefull. It's either a heal build, a boon build, a condi build or a condi build.

    Yeah well, you can "roam" in the open world PvE on literally anything. Raids are organized cooperative play for a larger number of players, it only make sense to compare it to WvW squad play. GvG or zerging, in either case the meta is very restrictive.

  • Astralporing.1957Astralporing.1957 Member ✭✭✭✭
    We need an easy mode, but not a hard mode

    @Feanor.2358 said:

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @Feanor.2358 said:

    @Ferelwing.8463 said:

    @Feanor.2358 said:
    Yea, well, I'm not happy with the ridiculous rear bumper skirt on the light Envoy either. But that's not their point. You don't craft these because you like their looks, you craft these because of what this signifies.

    So you'd be totally fine if your Legendary Armor looked exactly like Exotic armor with a bonus effect that only showed up when you entered combat? Yeah, somehow I doubt that.

    I doubt my legendary armor has spent even 20% of its time on my character being visible and itself. I kept it under outfits for a long time, and it is currently transmuted to the much more elegant Flamekissed set. The bonus effect doesn't work in either case. And... I'm totally fine.

    That's just you. Other people have different reasons and due to them may act differently. I for one have crafted heavy legendary primarily for looks (and partially for QoL). I'm currently thinking whether to craft light as well, and i'm unsure about that purely due to aestethics (they don't fit neither my mesmers, nor necro, and legendary on ele would be wasted due to her always using zerker, so i'd probably need to redesign one of my character looks, which is always a long process). I also know, that i am never going to use medium envoy (way too ugly), which is why i don't even bother about it, and my druid (that could use stat-changing) is working towards the WvW one.

    In neither of the cases have i cared about what envoy armor "signifies". Because to me it signifies nothing.

    And that's just you. This argument goes both ways, you know. However, you have stated on many occasions that you didn't like raiding and basically "suffered through" the process of getting the Envoy. That's not the typical raider's experience - the typical raider keeps raiding because they enjoy it. So I'm inclined to think more people would agree with me and find significance in the armor, than agree with you. Since, you know, it's a raider's thing.

    Well, yeah, obviously if you put something in a content most people strongly dislike, then obviously most people that will get that reward will be from those that like that content. It has nothing do do with your initial statement however. You were stating reasons why people might craft a legendary set. And those reasons differ. Yes, the current envoy set armor acquisition favours people that have one outlook, but that by itself doesn't mean it's the outlook most players share.

    The whole point of a social game is to play with the people you want to play with, not be forced to play with the people you don't.

  • nia.4725nia.4725 Member ✭✭✭
    Raids are fine the way they are, combining bosses of various difficulties

    This thread was so beautiful when it was silent, why do we have to revive it again : ( xDD

    Handkiter slave. / Cat Fletcher, Cho Jinri, Elettra Hart, Anima Schirmer, La Que Ama, B I T T E R N E S S

  • Voltekka.2375Voltekka.2375 Member ✭✭✭✭
    We need both easy and hard modes

    @nia.4725 said:

    @Feanor.2358 said:

    @nia.4725 said:

    @Ferelwing.8463 said:

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @mortrialus.3062 said:
    Literally every raider I know plays multi class and if they're heavy, for example will swap between power,condi, and hand kiter from fight to fight in a single night of raiding across three classes.

    I know a number of raiders like that (condi berserker, power dh, handkiting/healing rev, for example. Or weaver, chronotank, condi mirage, condi scourge, for an light armor example). None of them transfer armor sets between characters, even if they have a legendary (and most of them do have it). They all have separate characters for that, all with full gear.
    The only case of actual use of legendary armor i saw was on chronotank that was switching back and forth between commander and minstrel setup.

    Basically, changing stats is one thing. Transferring gear between characters and changing stats on top of it is way too much of a hassle for most people to actually do that. Eeven people with legendary gear usually just get an additional (ascended) set for that.

    I was trying to point out that the stat choices in PVE are binary. Before I set foot into WvW I thought the majority of the stat combinations were obsolete and useless. It surprised me that Anet even offered them because I couldn't figure out who would need them. It was either Condi or Zerkers. After stepping into WvW it was an eye-opener and I find myself experimenting with different stat combinations, the problem being that I'm still working on the Legendary set in WvW so having 3 toons that I play exclusively in WvW with several different ascended gear sets (based on what I will need based on server population and what kind of build is needed at the time..) has made a mess of my inventory and bank space. Legendary Armor will be a space saver!

    WvW and raids are completely different. Raids are instanced content played by a maximum of 10 people, so the stat choices are very limited; you need to compress as much as possible everything the squad needs (DPS, support, etc). A celestial DPS would not deal enough damage, and if DPS started using hybrid gear (gear half supportive half damage), things like dedicated healers like druid would become a waste. But druids not only give heals, you know. Druids are necessary because of the insane amount of utility and damage buffs they give, and that will never be covered by any hybrid or self-sufficient build. Same with chronos. I agree that it's sad that the build diversity in raids is so little, I really really do.

    Aw, come on. Raid meta is twice as diverse as the WvW one. 95% of everything you'll find in a WvW squad is Scourge, Firebrand and Spellbreaker.

    But WvW is not just zerging, you know. Roaming builds are much more diverse. And raid builds aren't diverse, you can't just come up with something completely unique and get it to be usefull. It's either a heal build, a boon build, a condi build or a condi build.

    Shhh. You are making sense, now. Of course wvw has much more variety on builds than raids do. But people will go to any length to defend their argument, no matter how absurd

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited June 29, 2018
    Raids are fine the way they are, combining bosses of various difficulties

    @Voltekka.2375 said:

    @nia.4725 said:

    @Feanor.2358 said:

    @nia.4725 said:

    @Ferelwing.8463 said:

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @mortrialus.3062 said:
    Literally every raider I know plays multi class and if they're heavy, for example will swap between power,condi, and hand kiter from fight to fight in a single night of raiding across three classes.

    I know a number of raiders like that (condi berserker, power dh, handkiting/healing rev, for example. Or weaver, chronotank, condi mirage, condi scourge, for an light armor example). None of them transfer armor sets between characters, even if they have a legendary (and most of them do have it). They all have separate characters for that, all with full gear.
    The only case of actual use of legendary armor i saw was on chronotank that was switching back and forth between commander and minstrel setup.

    Basically, changing stats is one thing. Transferring gear between characters and changing stats on top of it is way too much of a hassle for most people to actually do that. Eeven people with legendary gear usually just get an additional (ascended) set for that.

    I was trying to point out that the stat choices in PVE are binary. Before I set foot into WvW I thought the majority of the stat combinations were obsolete and useless. It surprised me that Anet even offered them because I couldn't figure out who would need them. It was either Condi or Zerkers. After stepping into WvW it was an eye-opener and I find myself experimenting with different stat combinations, the problem being that I'm still working on the Legendary set in WvW so having 3 toons that I play exclusively in WvW with several different ascended gear sets (based on what I will need based on server population and what kind of build is needed at the time..) has made a mess of my inventory and bank space. Legendary Armor will be a space saver!

    WvW and raids are completely different. Raids are instanced content played by a maximum of 10 people, so the stat choices are very limited; you need to compress as much as possible everything the squad needs (DPS, support, etc). A celestial DPS would not deal enough damage, and if DPS started using hybrid gear (gear half supportive half damage), things like dedicated healers like druid would become a waste. But druids not only give heals, you know. Druids are necessary because of the insane amount of utility and damage buffs they give, and that will never be covered by any hybrid or self-sufficient build. Same with chronos. I agree that it's sad that the build diversity in raids is so little, I really really do.

    Aw, come on. Raid meta is twice as diverse as the WvW one. 95% of everything you'll find in a WvW squad is Scourge, Firebrand and Spellbreaker.

    But WvW is not just zerging, you know. Roaming builds are much more diverse. And raid builds aren't diverse, you can't just come up with something completely unique and get it to be usefull. It's either a heal build, a boon build, a condi build or a condi build.

    Shhh. You are making sense, now. Of course wvw has much more variety on builds than raids do. But people will go to any length to defend their argument, no matter how absurd

    Sorry but are you seriously comparing meta best in slot raid builds with just any wvw build which might work? Even more against weak pve players trying to catch the zerg?

    WvW top end builds are way less diverse than people make them out to be here.

    If we are to take all decent or "that works too" raid builds which are not posted on snowcrows or similar sites the variety of builds increases for raids as well.

    The amount of uniqueness in wvw builds comes from the diversity in opponents and their varying skill level. That's not to say you can't stick to one of the best in slot builde and trash any one you meet. Even worse one of the flavor classes. Go run a proper trailblazer/viper Mirage and see how many unique builds will outplay you. That's not build diversity. That's opponent diversity skill level.

    I'll give you that wvw does make vitality and toughness actually useful thus adding variety. But that is basically as far as it goes. The amount of overpowered stat combos or used stats in wvw is barely higher than raids. Celestial, berseker, trailblazer and maybe some viper/minstrel or harrier splashing.

  • Ferelwing.8463Ferelwing.8463 Member ✭✭✭
    edited June 29, 2018
    We need both easy and hard modes

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    Shhh. You are making sense, now. Of course wvw has much more variety on builds than raids do. But people will go to any length to defend their argument, no matter how absurd

    Thank you.

  • Ferelwing.8463Ferelwing.8463 Member ✭✭✭
    We need both easy and hard modes

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Voltekka.2375 said:

    @nia.4725 said:

    @Feanor.2358 said:

    @nia.4725 said:

    @Ferelwing.8463 said:

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @mortrialus.3062 said:
    Literally every raider I know plays multi class and if they're heavy, for example will swap between power,condi, and hand kiter from fight to fight in a single night of raiding across three classes.

    I know a number of raiders like that (condi berserker, power dh, handkiting/healing rev, for example. Or weaver, chronotank, condi mirage, condi scourge, for an light armor example). None of them transfer armor sets between characters, even if they have a legendary (and most of them do have it). They all have separate characters for that, all with full gear.
    The only case of actual use of legendary armor i saw was on chronotank that was switching back and forth between commander and minstrel setup.

    Basically, changing stats is one thing. Transferring gear between characters and changing stats on top of it is way too much of a hassle for most people to actually do that. Eeven people with legendary gear usually just get an additional (ascended) set for that.

    I was trying to point out that the stat choices in PVE are binary. Before I set foot into WvW I thought the majority of the stat combinations were obsolete and useless. It surprised me that Anet even offered them because I couldn't figure out who would need them. It was either Condi or Zerkers. After stepping into WvW it was an eye-opener and I find myself experimenting with different stat combinations, the problem being that I'm still working on the Legendary set in WvW so having 3 toons that I play exclusively in WvW with several different ascended gear sets (based on what I will need based on server population and what kind of build is needed at the time..) has made a mess of my inventory and bank space. Legendary Armor will be a space saver!

    WvW and raids are completely different. Raids are instanced content played by a maximum of 10 people, so the stat choices are very limited; you need to compress as much as possible everything the squad needs (DPS, support, etc). A celestial DPS would not deal enough damage, and if DPS started using hybrid gear (gear half supportive half damage), things like dedicated healers like druid would become a waste. But druids not only give heals, you know. Druids are necessary because of the insane amount of utility and damage buffs they give, and that will never be covered by any hybrid or self-sufficient build. Same with chronos. I agree that it's sad that the build diversity in raids is so little, I really really do.

    Aw, come on. Raid meta is twice as diverse as the WvW one. 95% of everything you'll find in a WvW squad is Scourge, Firebrand and Spellbreaker.

    But WvW is not just zerging, you know. Roaming builds are much more diverse. And raid builds aren't diverse, you can't just come up with something completely unique and get it to be usefull. It's either a heal build, a boon build, a condi build or a condi build.

    Shhh. You are making sense, now. Of course wvw has much more variety on builds than raids do. But people will go to any length to defend their argument, no matter how absurd

    Sorry but are you seriously comparing meta best in slot raid builds with just any wvw build which might work? Even more against weak pve players trying to catch the zerg?

    Umm, actually you still have 4 or 5 different builds that are top builds per class most of the time based entirely on what you need to be doing at the time. Roaming builds alone have multiple different stats based on the playstyle of the player. It's way more diverse even at the high level WvW...

    WvW top end builds are way less diverse than people make them out to be here.

    For zerging sure, they have less diversity but only for blobs and zergs. If you're doing roaming and scouting you have far more diversity and most people change their roaming/scouting builds out when they're going into a zerg but it's not just 2 builds for every class. There is variety.

    If we are to take all decent or "that works too" raid builds which are not posted on snowcrows or similar sites the variety of builds increases for raids as well.

    There's less diversity period in PVE. You're maximizing damage and not worried at all about defenses. You could make an argument for sigils and runes but that's about it.

    The amount of uniqueness in wvw builds comes from the diversity in opponents and their varying skill level. That's not to say you can't stick to one of the best in slot builde and trash any one you meet. Even worse one of the flavor classes. Go run a proper trailblazer/viper Mirage and see how many unique builds will outplay you. That's not build diversity. That's opponent diversity skill level.

    Oh so you're talking squishy condi... Yeah if we live through your initial burst (you know using escapes and invulns) you die. It's not hard to kill a condi Mirage. We call it Cancer but it's pretty much die... Trailblazers isn't viable at all in PVE outside of Mes. Like I said, Mes and Rangers have differences in their builds every other class is trying to maximize their damage outputs and do not give even the slightest care for defensive stats because they're meaningless.

    I'll give you that wvw does vitality and toughness actually useful thus adding variety. But that is basically as far as it goes. The amount of overpowered stat combos or used stats in wvw is barely higher than raids. Clestial, berseker, trailblazer and maybe some viper/minstrel or harre splashing.

    Nomads is still pretty decent, Minstrels and Cele are more common. Zerks is too squishy for anything not a War/Reaper. Mes/Thief can get away with Condi but they're dead if their initial burst is avoided. There's at least 3 or 4 viable builds on most classes (usually involving tankiness etc). In PVE it's binary outside of 2 classes.

  • Voltekka.2375Voltekka.2375 Member ✭✭✭✭
    We need both easy and hard modes

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Voltekka.2375 said:

    @nia.4725 said:

    @Feanor.2358 said:

    @nia.4725 said:

    @Ferelwing.8463 said:

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @mortrialus.3062 said:
    Literally every raider I know plays multi class and if they're heavy, for example will swap between power,condi, and hand kiter from fight to fight in a single night of raiding across three classes.

    I know a number of raiders like that (condi berserker, power dh, handkiting/healing rev, for example. Or weaver, chronotank, condi mirage, condi scourge, for an light armor example). None of them transfer armor sets between characters, even if they have a legendary (and most of them do have it). They all have separate characters for that, all with full gear.
    The only case of actual use of legendary armor i saw was on chronotank that was switching back and forth between commander and minstrel setup.

    Basically, changing stats is one thing. Transferring gear between characters and changing stats on top of it is way too much of a hassle for most people to actually do that. Eeven people with legendary gear usually just get an additional (ascended) set for that.

    I was trying to point out that the stat choices in PVE are binary. Before I set foot into WvW I thought the majority of the stat combinations were obsolete and useless. It surprised me that Anet even offered them because I couldn't figure out who would need them. It was either Condi or Zerkers. After stepping into WvW it was an eye-opener and I find myself experimenting with different stat combinations, the problem being that I'm still working on the Legendary set in WvW so having 3 toons that I play exclusively in WvW with several different ascended gear sets (based on what I will need based on server population and what kind of build is needed at the time..) has made a mess of my inventory and bank space. Legendary Armor will be a space saver!

    WvW and raids are completely different. Raids are instanced content played by a maximum of 10 people, so the stat choices are very limited; you need to compress as much as possible everything the squad needs (DPS, support, etc). A celestial DPS would not deal enough damage, and if DPS started using hybrid gear (gear half supportive half damage), things like dedicated healers like druid would become a waste. But druids not only give heals, you know. Druids are necessary because of the insane amount of utility and damage buffs they give, and that will never be covered by any hybrid or self-sufficient build. Same with chronos. I agree that it's sad that the build diversity in raids is so little, I really really do.

    Aw, come on. Raid meta is twice as diverse as the WvW one. 95% of everything you'll find in a WvW squad is Scourge, Firebrand and Spellbreaker.

    But WvW is not just zerging, you know. Roaming builds are much more diverse. And raid builds aren't diverse, you can't just come up with something completely unique and get it to be usefull. It's either a heal build, a boon build, a condi build or a condi build.

    Shhh. You are making sense, now. Of course wvw has much more variety on builds than raids do. But people will go to any length to defend their argument, no matter how absurd

    Sorry but are you seriously comparing meta best in slot raid builds with just any wvw build which might work? Even more against weak pve players trying to catch the zerg?

    WvW top end builds are way less diverse than people make them out to be here.

    If we are to take all decent or "that works too" raid builds which are not posted on snowcrows or similar sites the variety of builds increases for raids as well.

    The amount of uniqueness in wvw builds comes from the diversity in opponents and their varying skill level. That's not to say you can't stick to one of the best in slot builde and trash any one you meet. Even worse one of the flavor classes. Go run a proper trailblazer/viper Mirage and see how many unique builds will outplay you. That's not build diversity. That's opponent diversity skill level.

    I'll give you that wvw does make vitality and toughness actually useful thus adding variety. But that is basically as far as it goes. The amount of overpowered stat combos or used stats in wvw is barely higher than raids. Celestial, berseker, trailblazer and maybe some viper/minstrel or harrier splashing.

    If you really think that wvw build variety can be compared to raid build variety (or even fractal build variety), maybe you only play metabattle wvw builds. Personally, I use 5-6 nec builds, 4ele builds, 3-4 guard builds (cant wait to test plaguedoctor), 3 reve builds, and the list goes on. I think raiders use waaaay less builds. And, yes, those builds i mentioned are viable.

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭
    Raids have problems, but we need a better solution

    I wonder where do you "need" these optimized WvW builds... I've used full Berserker builds in WvW a lot without any problems. I've seen (and still see) loads of players in green gear or with those tiny green arrows showing that they are up-leveled. A level 2 player can port to WvW and play just fine there, repairing, building siege, and in general being helpful in the WvW game mode without having an optimized build at all.

    I wonder when I join a squad of 50 people how many are actually using these optimized WvW builds and are not using regular PVE builds instead. Might be fun to poll the squad for that.

    This comparison between a game mode that has the same gear/build "requirements" as casual open world PVE versus a game mode that has much higher requirements (Raids - instanced content) is really not working. WvW is where you go to have some casual PVP fights (like the open world is where you get casual PVE fights), if I want to use highly optimized builds, I'll go do ranked PVP at platinum/legendary league, or if I want to use highly optimized builds in PVE, I'll play high end Fractals or Raids.

  • Ferelwing.8463Ferelwing.8463 Member ✭✭✭
    edited June 29, 2018
    We need both easy and hard modes

    @Feanor.2358 said:

    @nia.4725 said:

    @Feanor.2358 said:

    @nia.4725 said:

    @Ferelwing.8463 said:

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @mortrialus.3062 said:
    Literally every raider I know plays multi class and if they're heavy, for example will swap between power,condi, and hand kiter from fight to fight in a single night of raiding across three classes.

    I know a number of raiders like that (condi berserker, power dh, handkiting/healing rev, for example. Or weaver, chronotank, condi mirage, condi scourge, for an light armor example). None of them transfer armor sets between characters, even if they have a legendary (and most of them do have it). They all have separate characters for that, all with full gear.
    The only case of actual use of legendary armor i saw was on chronotank that was switching back and forth between commander and minstrel setup.

    Basically, changing stats is one thing. Transferring gear between characters and changing stats on top of it is way too much of a hassle for most people to actually do that. Eeven people with legendary gear usually just get an additional (ascended) set for that.

    I was trying to point out that the stat choices in PVE are binary. Before I set foot into WvW I thought the majority of the stat combinations were obsolete and useless. It surprised me that Anet even offered them because I couldn't figure out who would need them. It was either Condi or Zerkers. After stepping into WvW it was an eye-opener and I find myself experimenting with different stat combinations, the problem being that I'm still working on the Legendary set in WvW so having 3 toons that I play exclusively in WvW with several different ascended gear sets (based on what I will need based on server population and what kind of build is needed at the time..) has made a mess of my inventory and bank space. Legendary Armor will be a space saver!

    WvW and raids are completely different. Raids are instanced content played by a maximum of 10 people, so the stat choices are very limited; you need to compress as much as possible everything the squad needs (DPS, support, etc). A celestial DPS would not deal enough damage, and if DPS started using hybrid gear (gear half supportive half damage), things like dedicated healers like druid would become a waste. But druids not only give heals, you know. Druids are necessary because of the insane amount of utility and damage buffs they give, and that will never be covered by any hybrid or self-sufficient build. Same with chronos. I agree that it's sad that the build diversity in raids is so little, I really really do.

    Aw, come on. Raid meta is twice as diverse as the WvW one. 95% of everything you'll find in a WvW squad is Scourge, Firebrand and Spellbreaker.

    But WvW is not just zerging, you know. Roaming builds are much more diverse. And raid builds aren't diverse, you can't just come up with something completely unique and get it to be usefull. It's either a heal build, a boon build, a condi build or a condi build.

    Yeah well, you can "roam" in the open world PvE on literally anything. Raids are organized cooperative play for a larger number of players, it only make sense to compare it to WvW squad play. GvG or zerging, in either case the meta is very restrictive.

    Umm... Roaming in WvW means something completely different than it does in PVE. Roaming means going out and running into other enemies whose builds you won't know till the encounter starts. Skill, build etc can determine whether you make it out (knowing your escapes etc). Open World? You don't need defensive stats and you're actually punished for taking them.

    I'd say Zerging is the only time it gets restrictive and it completely depends on the guilds/servers etc but even then, PUG's don't care as much and some guilds encourage their members to try different builds out so we can optimize towards what we're trying to do. I have lots of builds as a result.

  • Ferelwing.8463Ferelwing.8463 Member ✭✭✭
    We need both easy and hard modes

    @Voltekka.2375 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Voltekka.2375 said:

    @nia.4725 said:

    @Feanor.2358 said:

    @nia.4725 said:

    @Ferelwing.8463 said:

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @mortrialus.3062 said:
    Literally every raider I know plays multi class and if they're heavy, for example will swap between power,condi, and hand kiter from fight to fight in a single night of raiding across three classes.

    I know a number of raiders like that (condi berserker, power dh, handkiting/healing rev, for example. Or weaver, chronotank, condi mirage, condi scourge, for an light armor example). None of them transfer armor sets between characters, even if they have a legendary (and most of them do have it). They all have separate characters for that, all with full gear.
    The only case of actual use of legendary armor i saw was on chronotank that was switching back and forth between commander and minstrel setup.

    Basically, changing stats is one thing. Transferring gear between characters and changing stats on top of it is way too much of a hassle for most people to actually do that. Eeven people with legendary gear usually just get an additional (ascended) set for that.

    I was trying to point out that the stat choices in PVE are binary. Before I set foot into WvW I thought the majority of the stat combinations were obsolete and useless. It surprised me that Anet even offered them because I couldn't figure out who would need them. It was either Condi or Zerkers. After stepping into WvW it was an eye-opener and I find myself experimenting with different stat combinations, the problem being that I'm still working on the Legendary set in WvW so having 3 toons that I play exclusively in WvW with several different ascended gear sets (based on what I will need based on server population and what kind of build is needed at the time..) has made a mess of my inventory and bank space. Legendary Armor will be a space saver!

    WvW and raids are completely different. Raids are instanced content played by a maximum of 10 people, so the stat choices are very limited; you need to compress as much as possible everything the squad needs (DPS, support, etc). A celestial DPS would not deal enough damage, and if DPS started using hybrid gear (gear half supportive half damage), things like dedicated healers like druid would become a waste. But druids not only give heals, you know. Druids are necessary because of the insane amount of utility and damage buffs they give, and that will never be covered by any hybrid or self-sufficient build. Same with chronos. I agree that it's sad that the build diversity in raids is so little, I really really do.

    Aw, come on. Raid meta is twice as diverse as the WvW one. 95% of everything you'll find in a WvW squad is Scourge, Firebrand and Spellbreaker.

    But WvW is not just zerging, you know. Roaming builds are much more diverse. And raid builds aren't diverse, you can't just come up with something completely unique and get it to be usefull. It's either a heal build, a boon build, a condi build or a condi build.

    Shhh. You are making sense, now. Of course wvw has much more variety on builds than raids do. But people will go to any length to defend their argument, no matter how absurd

    Sorry but are you seriously comparing meta best in slot raid builds with just any wvw build which might work? Even more against weak pve players trying to catch the zerg?

    WvW top end builds are way less diverse than people make them out to be here.

    If we are to take all decent or "that works too" raid builds which are not posted on snowcrows or similar sites the variety of builds increases for raids as well.

    The amount of uniqueness in wvw builds comes from the diversity in opponents and their varying skill level. That's not to say you can't stick to one of the best in slot builde and trash any one you meet. Even worse one of the flavor classes. Go run a proper trailblazer/viper Mirage and see how many unique builds will outplay you. That's not build diversity. That's opponent diversity skill level.

    I'll give you that wvw does make vitality and toughness actually useful thus adding variety. But that is basically as far as it goes. The amount of overpowered stat combos or used stats in wvw is barely higher than raids. Celestial, berseker, trailblazer and maybe some viper/minstrel or harrier splashing.

    If you really think that wvw build variety can be compared to raid build variety (or even fractal build variety), maybe you only play metabattle wvw builds. Personally, I use 5-6 nec builds, 4ele builds, 3-4 guard builds (cant wait to test plaguedoctor), 3 reve builds, and the list goes on. I think raiders use waaaay less builds. And, yes, those builds i mentioned are viable.

    Yeah same. I don't NEED metabattle to dictate it and my guild is constantly testing out different builds that work. When we're zerging we optimize towards what we're planning to do. More often then not we're running Havoc so our builds involve a mix. In fact quite a few of us DON'T talk about our builds outside of Guild because for us it's kinda fun to surprise people.

    But yeah exactly.

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited June 29, 2018
    Raids are fine the way they are, combining bosses of various difficulties

    @Ferelwing.8463 said:

    @Voltekka.2375 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Voltekka.2375 said:

    @nia.4725 said:

    @Feanor.2358 said:

    @nia.4725 said:

    @Ferelwing.8463 said:

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @mortrialus.3062 said:
    Literally every raider I know plays multi class and if they're heavy, for example will swap between power,condi, and hand kiter from fight to fight in a single night of raiding across three classes.

    I know a number of raiders like that (condi berserker, power dh, handkiting/healing rev, for example. Or weaver, chronotank, condi mirage, condi scourge, for an light armor example). None of them transfer armor sets between characters, even if they have a legendary (and most of them do have it). They all have separate characters for that, all with full gear.
    The only case of actual use of legendary armor i saw was on chronotank that was switching back and forth between commander and minstrel setup.

    Basically, changing stats is one thing. Transferring gear between characters and changing stats on top of it is way too much of a hassle for most people to actually do that. Eeven people with legendary gear usually just get an additional (ascended) set for that.

    I was trying to point out that the stat choices in PVE are binary. Before I set foot into WvW I thought the majority of the stat combinations were obsolete and useless. It surprised me that Anet even offered them because I couldn't figure out who would need them. It was either Condi or Zerkers. After stepping into WvW it was an eye-opener and I find myself experimenting with different stat combinations, the problem being that I'm still working on the Legendary set in WvW so having 3 toons that I play exclusively in WvW with several different ascended gear sets (based on what I will need based on server population and what kind of build is needed at the time..) has made a mess of my inventory and bank space. Legendary Armor will be a space saver!

    WvW and raids are completely different. Raids are instanced content played by a maximum of 10 people, so the stat choices are very limited; you need to compress as much as possible everything the squad needs (DPS, support, etc). A celestial DPS would not deal enough damage, and if DPS started using hybrid gear (gear half supportive half damage), things like dedicated healers like druid would become a waste. But druids not only give heals, you know. Druids are necessary because of the insane amount of utility and damage buffs they give, and that will never be covered by any hybrid or self-sufficient build. Same with chronos. I agree that it's sad that the build diversity in raids is so little, I really really do.

    Aw, come on. Raid meta is twice as diverse as the WvW one. 95% of everything you'll find in a WvW squad is Scourge, Firebrand and Spellbreaker.

    But WvW is not just zerging, you know. Roaming builds are much more diverse. And raid builds aren't diverse, you can't just come up with something completely unique and get it to be usefull. It's either a heal build, a boon build, a condi build or a condi build.

    Shhh. You are making sense, now. Of course wvw has much more variety on builds than raids do. But people will go to any length to defend their argument, no matter how absurd

    Sorry but are you seriously comparing meta best in slot raid builds with just any wvw build which might work? Even more against weak pve players trying to catch the zerg?

    WvW top end builds are way less diverse than people make them out to be here.

    If we are to take all decent or "that works too" raid builds which are not posted on snowcrows or similar sites the variety of builds increases for raids as well.

    The amount of uniqueness in wvw builds comes from the diversity in opponents and their varying skill level. That's not to say you can't stick to one of the best in slot builde and trash any one you meet. Even worse one of the flavor classes. Go run a proper trailblazer/viper Mirage and see how many unique builds will outplay you. That's not build diversity. That's opponent diversity skill level.

    I'll give you that wvw does make vitality and toughness actually useful thus adding variety. But that is basically as far as it goes. The amount of overpowered stat combos or used stats in wvw is barely higher than raids. Celestial, berseker, trailblazer and maybe some viper/minstrel or harrier splashing.

    If you really think that wvw build variety can be compared to raid build variety (or even fractal build variety), maybe you only play metabattle wvw builds. Personally, I use 5-6 nec builds, 4ele builds, 3-4 guard builds (cant wait to test plaguedoctor), 3 reve builds, and the list goes on. I think raiders use waaaay less builds. And, yes, those builds i mentioned are viable.

    Yeah same. I don't NEED metabattle to dictate it and my guild is constantly testing out different builds that work. When we're zerging we optimize towards what we're planning to do. More often then not we're running Havoc so our builds involve a mix. In fact quite a few of us DON'T talk about our builds outside of Guild because for us it's kinda fun to surprise people.

    But yeah exactly.

    Which is no proof that those builds are unique and optimized. All that is proof of is that they performed and got the job done. That's not optimization. You are comparing okay builds to highly optimized raid builds.

    I already conceded that vitality and toughness make wvw builds more interesting and diverse based on the stats you add. The mere fact that efficiency of certain stat combinations versus others (4-stat items give aproximately 10% more total stats) is higher already makes a huge amount of stat combination useless. Yes, not all 4-stat combinations are in game yet which does make some 3-stat combination useful. But beside that it's mostly shuffle between most 4-stat combination and celestial. That's not even getting into zerging which requires litreally no build if you can position properly.

    You are literally comparing your mediocre and good builds to best in slot maximized performance raid builds. Just as I said.

  • Ferelwing.8463Ferelwing.8463 Member ✭✭✭
    We need both easy and hard modes

    @maddoctor.2738 said:
    I wonder where do you "need" these optimized WvW builds... I've used full Berserker builds in WvW a lot without any problems. I've seen (and still see) loads of players in green gear or with those tiny green arrows showing that they are up-leveled. A level 2 player can port to WvW and play just fine there, repairing, building siege, and in general being helpful in the WvW game mode without having an optimized build at all.

    Lol... There are some players who absolutely love to troll people while playing "kitten skins" even though they're running full Ascended. It's actually a common Roaming trick. Also, wearing zerkers generally means you're squishy. You will die to siege attacks (arrow carts are particularly strong against anyone running vipers and zerkers because less defensive stats). Of course if you've ranked up against siege it's not as damaging. Also, running zerkers means you will die if someone invuln's your initial burst. You don't have many protections. Now there are two classes that can get away with it because of their innate kit (Reapers/Wars) but the rest of the classes get killed. If you run into a bad player or someone not expecting your burst you might kill them. Mapchat usually follows: Found a zerkers/condi (insert champ) near (location) that tends to mean that you'll be hunted down as a free bag later. At least that's what my team does.

    I wonder when I join a squad of 50 people how many are actually using these optimized WvW builds and are not using regular PVE builds instead. Might be fun to poll the squad for that.

    Depends on the server and depends on the squad. When zerging in a PUG it's not as common because people just join up with the nearest tag and go where-ever. When you have an actual plan as to what you're going for then you change your build to meet that plan.

    This comparison between a game mode that has the same gear/build "requirements" as casual open world PVE versus a game mode that has much higher requirements (Raids - instanced content) is really not working. WvW is where you go to have some casual PVP fights (like the open world is where you get casual PVE fights), if I want to use highly optimized builds, I'll go do ranked PVP at platinum/legendary league, or if I want to use highly optimized builds in PVE, I'll play high end Fractals or Raids.

    PVE still doesn't rely on any kind of defensive stats. It's burst it down and whatever build does more burst wins. (Sure there are exceptions as mentioned previously)

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited June 29, 2018
    Raids are fine the way they are, combining bosses of various difficulties

    @Voltekka.2375 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Voltekka.2375 said:

    @nia.4725 said:

    @Feanor.2358 said:

    @nia.4725 said:

    @Ferelwing.8463 said:

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @mortrialus.3062 said:
    Literally every raider I know plays multi class and if they're heavy, for example will swap between power,condi, and hand kiter from fight to fight in a single night of raiding across three classes.

    I know a number of raiders like that (condi berserker, power dh, handkiting/healing rev, for example. Or weaver, chronotank, condi mirage, condi scourge, for an light armor example). None of them transfer armor sets between characters, even if they have a legendary (and most of them do have it). They all have separate characters for that, all with full gear.
    The only case of actual use of legendary armor i saw was on chronotank that was switching back and forth between commander and minstrel setup.

    Basically, changing stats is one thing. Transferring gear between characters and changing stats on top of it is way too much of a hassle for most people to actually do that. Eeven people with legendary gear usually just get an additional (ascended) set for that.

    I was trying to point out that the stat choices in PVE are binary. Before I set foot into WvW I thought the majority of the stat combinations were obsolete and useless. It surprised me that Anet even offered them because I couldn't figure out who would need them. It was either Condi or Zerkers. After stepping into WvW it was an eye-opener and I find myself experimenting with different stat combinations, the problem being that I'm still working on the Legendary set in WvW so having 3 toons that I play exclusively in WvW with several different ascended gear sets (based on what I will need based on server population and what kind of build is needed at the time..) has made a mess of my inventory and bank space. Legendary Armor will be a space saver!

    WvW and raids are completely different. Raids are instanced content played by a maximum of 10 people, so the stat choices are very limited; you need to compress as much as possible everything the squad needs (DPS, support, etc). A celestial DPS would not deal enough damage, and if DPS started using hybrid gear (gear half supportive half damage), things like dedicated healers like druid would become a waste. But druids not only give heals, you know. Druids are necessary because of the insane amount of utility and damage buffs they give, and that will never be covered by any hybrid or self-sufficient build. Same with chronos. I agree that it's sad that the build diversity in raids is so little, I really really do.

    Aw, come on. Raid meta is twice as diverse as the WvW one. 95% of everything you'll find in a WvW squad is Scourge, Firebrand and Spellbreaker.

    But WvW is not just zerging, you know. Roaming builds are much more diverse. And raid builds aren't diverse, you can't just come up with something completely unique and get it to be usefull. It's either a heal build, a boon build, a condi build or a condi build.

    Shhh. You are making sense, now. Of course wvw has much more variety on builds than raids do. But people will go to any length to defend their argument, no matter how absurd

    Sorry but are you seriously comparing meta best in slot raid builds with just any wvw build which might work? Even more against weak pve players trying to catch the zerg?

    WvW top end builds are way less diverse than people make them out to be here.

    If we are to take all decent or "that works too" raid builds which are not posted on snowcrows or similar sites the variety of builds increases for raids as well.

    The amount of uniqueness in wvw builds comes from the diversity in opponents and their varying skill level. That's not to say you can't stick to one of the best in slot builde and trash any one you meet. Even worse one of the flavor classes. Go run a proper trailblazer/viper Mirage and see how many unique builds will outplay you. That's not build diversity. That's opponent diversity skill level.

    I'll give you that wvw does make vitality and toughness actually useful thus adding variety. But that is basically as far as it goes. The amount of overpowered stat combos or used stats in wvw is barely higher than raids. Celestial, berseker, trailblazer and maybe some viper/minstrel or harrier splashing.

    If you really think that wvw build variety can be compared to raid build variety (or even fractal build variety), maybe you only play metabattle wvw builds. Personally, I use 5-6 nec builds, 4ele builds, 3-4 guard builds (cant wait to test plaguedoctor), 3 reve builds, and the list goes on. I think raiders use waaaay less builds. And, yes, those builds i mentioned are viable.

    I said raid builds are way more optimized than your bazillion of mediocre or good builds. You are comparing on unequal footing.

    I intentionally left out wvw metabattle or popular metabuilds because that would just make you look silly because those are barely better than meta raid builds. (and funny enough way less class represented or diverse)

  • Ferelwing.8463Ferelwing.8463 Member ✭✭✭
    edited June 29, 2018
    We need both easy and hard modes

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Ferelwing.8463 said:

    @Voltekka.2375 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Voltekka.2375 said:

    @nia.4725 said:

    @Feanor.2358 said:

    @nia.4725 said:

    @Ferelwing.8463 said:

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @mortrialus.3062 said:
    Literally every raider I know plays multi class and if they're heavy, for example will swap between power,condi, and hand kiter from fight to fight in a single night of raiding across three classes.

    I know a number of raiders like that (condi berserker, power dh, handkiting/healing rev, for example. Or weaver, chronotank, condi mirage, condi scourge, for an light armor example). None of them transfer armor sets between characters, even if they have a legendary (and most of them do have it). They all have separate characters for that, all with full gear.
    The only case of actual use of legendary armor i saw was on chronotank that was switching back and forth between commander and minstrel setup.

    Basically, changing stats is one thing. Transferring gear between characters and changing stats on top of it is way too much of a hassle for most people to actually do that. Eeven people with legendary gear usually just get an additional (ascended) set for that.

    I was trying to point out that the stat choices in PVE are binary. Before I set foot into WvW I thought the majority of the stat combinations were obsolete and useless. It surprised me that Anet even offered them because I couldn't figure out who would need them. It was either Condi or Zerkers. After stepping into WvW it was an eye-opener and I find myself experimenting with different stat combinations, the problem being that I'm still working on the Legendary set in WvW so having 3 toons that I play exclusively in WvW with several different ascended gear sets (based on what I will need based on server population and what kind of build is needed at the time..) has made a mess of my inventory and bank space. Legendary Armor will be a space saver!

    WvW and raids are completely different. Raids are instanced content played by a maximum of 10 people, so the stat choices are very limited; you need to compress as much as possible everything the squad needs (DPS, support, etc). A celestial DPS would not deal enough damage, and if DPS started using hybrid gear (gear half supportive half damage), things like dedicated healers like druid would become a waste. But druids not only give heals, you know. Druids are necessary because of the insane amount of utility and damage buffs they give, and that will never be covered by any hybrid or self-sufficient build. Same with chronos. I agree that it's sad that the build diversity in raids is so little, I really really do.

    Aw, come on. Raid meta is twice as diverse as the WvW one. 95% of everything you'll find in a WvW squad is Scourge, Firebrand and Spellbreaker.

    But WvW is not just zerging, you know. Roaming builds are much more diverse. And raid builds aren't diverse, you can't just come up with something completely unique and get it to be usefull. It's either a heal build, a boon build, a condi build or a condi build.

    Shhh. You are making sense, now. Of course wvw has much more variety on builds than raids do. But people will go to any length to defend their argument, no matter how absurd

    Sorry but are you seriously comparing meta best in slot raid builds with just any wvw build which might work? Even more against weak pve players trying to catch the zerg?

    WvW top end builds are way less diverse than people make them out to be here.

    If we are to take all decent or "that works too" raid builds which are not posted on snowcrows or similar sites the variety of builds increases for raids as well.

    The amount of uniqueness in wvw builds comes from the diversity in opponents and their varying skill level. That's not to say you can't stick to one of the best in slot builde and trash any one you meet. Even worse one of the flavor classes. Go run a proper trailblazer/viper Mirage and see how many unique builds will outplay you. That's not build diversity. That's opponent diversity skill level.

    I'll give you that wvw does make vitality and toughness actually useful thus adding variety. But that is basically as far as it goes. The amount of overpowered stat combos or used stats in wvw is barely higher than raids. Celestial, berseker, trailblazer and maybe some viper/minstrel or harrier splashing.

    If you really think that wvw build variety can be compared to raid build variety (or even fractal build variety), maybe you only play metabattle wvw builds. Personally, I use 5-6 nec builds, 4ele builds, 3-4 guard builds (cant wait to test plaguedoctor), 3 reve builds, and the list goes on. I think raiders use waaaay less builds. And, yes, those builds i mentioned are viable.

    Yeah same. I don't NEED metabattle to dictate it and my guild is constantly testing out different builds that work. When we're zerging we optimize towards what we're planning to do. More often then not we're running Havoc so our builds involve a mix. In fact quite a few of us DON'T talk about our builds outside of Guild because for us it's kinda fun to surprise people.

    But yeah exactly.

    Which is no proof that those builds are unique. All that is proof of is that they performed and got the job done. That's not optimization. You are comparing okay builds to highly optimized raid builds.

    Lol, and you're trying to change the conversation. I said that players in WvW use their ability to change stats more than Raiders/PVE players do. You are trying to pretend that is not the conversation we're having by changing the conversation to some random comment about "optimization" You are claiming that our builds aren't "optimized" based on whatever criteria you have for that and ignoring the whole part where we pointed out that we use more stats on an item that lets us change stats outside of combat than YOU or any PVE player ever will.

    If I kill the enemy and take their Keep without dying that's optimized. It's not about trying to out-damage it's about survival and being successful at taking the objective. If I can outplay with a squishy build that's fine but if I die it's on ME for choosing to be that squishy. That's the difference between PVE and WvW. Your goal is to take objectives and avoid dying a lot in WvW. In PVE it's about doing as much damage in bursts as possible.

    I already conceded that vitality and toughness make wvw builds more interesting and diverse based on the stats you add. The mere fact that efficiency of certain stat combinations versus others (4-stat items give aproximately 10% more total stats) is higher already makes a huge amount of stat combination useless. Yes, not all 4-stat combinations are in game yet which does make some 3-stat combination useful. But beside that it's mostly shuffle between most 4-stat combination and celestial. That's not even getting into zerging which requires litreally no build if you can position properly.

    You are literally comparing your mediocre and good builds to best in slot maximized performance raid builds. Just as I said.

    You're claiming that you need a piece of gear that lets you slot change on the fly out of combat when you have "optimized builds" without the actual "need" to do any changing. When Ascended would work just as well because you do NOT use most of the other options available. I am saying that WvW DOES use these options and therefore it makes LESS sense that YOU get something that has all of those options when you're never planning to use them because "optimization". But somehow you've now tried to change the conversation to "You don't need it because optimization" which makes zero sense to the discussion I thought we were having. Which was (reiterated again): People in WvW change their builds a lot more often than people in PVE. They do it because it works for them and because that is required to play the mode. People in WvW would LOVE more skins but we don't get them people in PVE who (as previously mentioned) do NOT change stats as often do. It's annoying and any other combination of why it's ok is just a strawman. You do not use even half of the available stat options on a Legendary ever. People in WvW actually do. That's the conversation we're having.

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited June 29, 2018
    Raids are fine the way they are, combining bosses of various difficulties

    @Ferelwing.8463 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Ferelwing.8463 said:

    @Voltekka.2375 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Voltekka.2375 said:

    @nia.4725 said:

    @Feanor.2358 said:

    @nia.4725 said:

    @Ferelwing.8463 said:

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @mortrialus.3062 said:
    Literally every raider I know plays multi class and if they're heavy, for example will swap between power,condi, and hand kiter from fight to fight in a single night of raiding across three classes.

    I know a number of raiders like that (condi berserker, power dh, handkiting/healing rev, for example. Or weaver, chronotank, condi mirage, condi scourge, for an light armor example). None of them transfer armor sets between characters, even if they have a legendary (and most of them do have it). They all have separate characters for that, all with full gear.
    The only case of actual use of legendary armor i saw was on chronotank that was switching back and forth between commander and minstrel setup.

    Basically, changing stats is one thing. Transferring gear between characters and changing stats on top of it is way too much of a hassle for most people to actually do that. Eeven people with legendary gear usually just get an additional (ascended) set for that.

    I was trying to point out that the stat choices in PVE are binary. Before I set foot into WvW I thought the majority of the stat combinations were obsolete and useless. It surprised me that Anet even offered them because I couldn't figure out who would need them. It was either Condi or Zerkers. After stepping into WvW it was an eye-opener and I find myself experimenting with different stat combinations, the problem being that I'm still working on the Legendary set in WvW so having 3 toons that I play exclusively in WvW with several different ascended gear sets (based on what I will need based on server population and what kind of build is needed at the time..) has made a mess of my inventory and bank space. Legendary Armor will be a space saver!

    WvW and raids are completely different. Raids are instanced content played by a maximum of 10 people, so the stat choices are very limited; you need to compress as much as possible everything the squad needs (DPS, support, etc). A celestial DPS would not deal enough damage, and if DPS started using hybrid gear (gear half supportive half damage), things like dedicated healers like druid would become a waste. But druids not only give heals, you know. Druids are necessary because of the insane amount of utility and damage buffs they give, and that will never be covered by any hybrid or self-sufficient build. Same with chronos. I agree that it's sad that the build diversity in raids is so little, I really really do.

    Aw, come on. Raid meta is twice as diverse as the WvW one. 95% of everything you'll find in a WvW squad is Scourge, Firebrand and Spellbreaker.

    But WvW is not just zerging, you know. Roaming builds are much more diverse. And raid builds aren't diverse, you can't just come up with something completely unique and get it to be usefull. It's either a heal build, a boon build, a condi build or a condi build.

    Shhh. You are making sense, now. Of course wvw has much more variety on builds than raids do. But people will go to any length to defend their argument, no matter how absurd

    Sorry but are you seriously comparing meta best in slot raid builds with just any wvw build which might work? Even more against weak pve players trying to catch the zerg?

    WvW top end builds are way less diverse than people make them out to be here.

    If we are to take all decent or "that works too" raid builds which are not posted on snowcrows or similar sites the variety of builds increases for raids as well.

    The amount of uniqueness in wvw builds comes from the diversity in opponents and their varying skill level. That's not to say you can't stick to one of the best in slot builde and trash any one you meet. Even worse one of the flavor classes. Go run a proper trailblazer/viper Mirage and see how many unique builds will outplay you. That's not build diversity. That's opponent diversity skill level.

    I'll give you that wvw does make vitality and toughness actually useful thus adding variety. But that is basically as far as it goes. The amount of overpowered stat combos or used stats in wvw is barely higher than raids. Celestial, berseker, trailblazer and maybe some viper/minstrel or harrier splashing.

    If you really think that wvw build variety can be compared to raid build variety (or even fractal build variety), maybe you only play metabattle wvw builds. Personally, I use 5-6 nec builds, 4ele builds, 3-4 guard builds (cant wait to test plaguedoctor), 3 reve builds, and the list goes on. I think raiders use waaaay less builds. And, yes, those builds i mentioned are viable.

    Yeah same. I don't NEED metabattle to dictate it and my guild is constantly testing out different builds that work. When we're zerging we optimize towards what we're planning to do. More often then not we're running Havoc so our builds involve a mix. In fact quite a few of us DON'T talk about our builds outside of Guild because for us it's kinda fun to surprise people.

    But yeah exactly.

    Which is no proof that those builds are unique. All that is proof of is that they performed and got the job done. That's not optimization. You are comparing okay builds to highly optimized raid builds.

    Lol, and you're trying to change the conversation. I said that players in WvW use their ability to change stats more than Raiders/PVE players do. You are trying to pretend that is not the case by throwing out strawman. You are claiming that our builds aren't "optimized" based on whatever criteria you have for that. If I kill the enemy and take their Keep without dying that's optimized. It's not about damage it's about survival. If I can outplay with a squishy build that's fine but if I die it's on ME for choosing to be that squishy. That's the difference between PVE and WvW. Your goal is to take objectives and avoid dying a lot.

    I am saying that basic math dictates that there is a limit to how many builds exist which are optimized. No taking a keep in what ever gear you put on is not optimized. That's like saying any stat combination which killed the raid boss is optimized. Small hint, you would lose that argument by miles since the actual stats needed to clear raids are abysmal low.

    I am saying you are comparing suboptimal builds from wvw to maximum optimized builds in raids and you still are. You are even admitting to this.

    Here's an example:
    WvW build 1 runs berserker splashed with vakyrie and does fine.

    WvW build 2 runs Marauder and does fine.

    According to you both of those builds are optimized. I can tell you strait off the bat, they are not yet they both succeeded. That's not optimization.

    @Ferelwing.8463 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    I already conceded that vitality and toughness make wvw builds more interesting and diverse based on the stats you add. The mere fact that efficiency of certain stat combinations versus others (4-stat items give aproximately 10% more total stats) is higher already makes a huge amount of stat combination useless. Yes, not all 4-stat combinations are in game yet which does make some 3-stat combination useful. But beside that it's mostly shuffle between most 4-stat combination and celestial. That's not even getting into zerging which requires litreally no build if you can position properly.

    You are literally comparing your mediocre and good builds to best in slot maximized performance raid builds. Just as I said.

    You're claiming that you need a piece of gear that lets you slot change on the fly out of combat when you have "optimized builds" without the actual "need" to do any changing. When Ascended would work just as well because you do NOT use the other options available. But somehow that means it's "ok" for you to have it. I am saying that's silly. My builds change based on what I'm doing at the time, yours may too but you don't change it as often because "optimization" which automatically proves my point.

    True, and I'm saying that if your builds were optimized you'd too be changing:

    A. less often since 1 build might work better for multiple things
    B. between less stat combinations since some are stricktly inferior to others thus reducing build diversity
    C. are switching between different playstyles with one of them (zerging) requiring almost no build what so ever

    EDIT:
    @Ferelwing.8463 you changed your reply, I'm going to keep the old one in but to your new reply: I disagree that the amount of stat combination finding use is such higher than pve from an optimization stand point. For most ideas and setups there is a best in slot and the fact that something worked does not mean that the build could not have been made better or more efficient with say more overall stats. Once you enter that area of performance and stat optimization, the amount of combinations used in wvw shrinks down too (not as much as pve, but a lot more than you want to make this out to be).

  • Ferelwing.8463Ferelwing.8463 Member ✭✭✭
    edited June 29, 2018
    We need both easy and hard modes

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Ferelwing.8463 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Ferelwing.8463 said:

    @Voltekka.2375 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Voltekka.2375 said:

    @nia.4725 said:

    @Feanor.2358 said:

    @nia.4725 said:

    @Ferelwing.8463 said:

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @mortrialus.3062 said:
    Literally every raider I know plays multi class and if they're heavy, for example will swap between power,condi, and hand kiter from fight to fight in a single night of raiding across three classes.

    I know a number of raiders like that (condi berserker, power dh, handkiting/healing rev, for example. Or weaver, chronotank, condi mirage, condi scourge, for an light armor example). None of them transfer armor sets between characters, even if they have a legendary (and most of them do have it). They all have separate characters for that, all with full gear.
    The only case of actual use of legendary armor i saw was on chronotank that was switching back and forth between commander and minstrel setup.

    Basically, changing stats is one thing. Transferring gear between characters and changing stats on top of it is way too much of a hassle for most people to actually do that. Eeven people with legendary gear usually just get an additional (ascended) set for that.

    I was trying to point out that the stat choices in PVE are binary. Before I set foot into WvW I thought the majority of the stat combinations were obsolete and useless. It surprised me that Anet even offered them because I couldn't figure out who would need them. It was either Condi or Zerkers. After stepping into WvW it was an eye-opener and I find myself experimenting with different stat combinations, the problem being that I'm still working on the Legendary set in WvW so having 3 toons that I play exclusively in WvW with several different ascended gear sets (based on what I will need based on server population and what kind of build is needed at the time..) has made a mess of my inventory and bank space. Legendary Armor will be a space saver!

    WvW and raids are completely different. Raids are instanced content played by a maximum of 10 people, so the stat choices are very limited; you need to compress as much as possible everything the squad needs (DPS, support, etc). A celestial DPS would not deal enough damage, and if DPS started using hybrid gear (gear half supportive half damage), things like dedicated healers like druid would become a waste. But druids not only give heals, you know. Druids are necessary because of the insane amount of utility and damage buffs they give, and that will never be covered by any hybrid or self-sufficient build. Same with chronos. I agree that it's sad that the build diversity in raids is so little, I really really do.

    Aw, come on. Raid meta is twice as diverse as the WvW one. 95% of everything you'll find in a WvW squad is Scourge, Firebrand and Spellbreaker.

    But WvW is not just zerging, you know. Roaming builds are much more diverse. And raid builds aren't diverse, you can't just come up with something completely unique and get it to be usefull. It's either a heal build, a boon build, a condi build or a condi build.

    Shhh. You are making sense, now. Of course wvw has much more variety on builds than raids do. But people will go to any length to defend their argument, no matter how absurd

    Sorry but are you seriously comparing meta best in slot raid builds with just any wvw build which might work? Even more against weak pve players trying to catch the zerg?

    WvW top end builds are way less diverse than people make them out to be here.

    If we are to take all decent or "that works too" raid builds which are not posted on snowcrows or similar sites the variety of builds increases for raids as well.

    The amount of uniqueness in wvw builds comes from the diversity in opponents and their varying skill level. That's not to say you can't stick to one of the best in slot builde and trash any one you meet. Even worse one of the flavor classes. Go run a proper trailblazer/viper Mirage and see how many unique builds will outplay you. That's not build diversity. That's opponent diversity skill level.

    I'll give you that wvw does make vitality and toughness actually useful thus adding variety. But that is basically as far as it goes. The amount of overpowered stat combos or used stats in wvw is barely higher than raids. Celestial, berseker, trailblazer and maybe some viper/minstrel or harrier splashing.

    If you really think that wvw build variety can be compared to raid build variety (or even fractal build variety), maybe you only play metabattle wvw builds. Personally, I use 5-6 nec builds, 4ele builds, 3-4 guard builds (cant wait to test plaguedoctor), 3 reve builds, and the list goes on. I think raiders use waaaay less builds. And, yes, those builds i mentioned are viable.

    Yeah same. I don't NEED metabattle to dictate it and my guild is constantly testing out different builds that work. When we're zerging we optimize towards what we're planning to do. More often then not we're running Havoc so our builds involve a mix. In fact quite a few of us DON'T talk about our builds outside of Guild because for us it's kinda fun to surprise people.

    But yeah exactly.

    Which is no proof that those builds are unique. All that is proof of is that they performed and got the job done. That's not optimization. You are comparing okay builds to highly optimized raid builds.

    Lol, and you're trying to change the conversation. I said that players in WvW use their ability to change stats more than Raiders/PVE players do. You are trying to pretend that is not the case by throwing out strawman. You are claiming that our builds aren't "optimized" based on whatever criteria you have for that. If I kill the enemy and take their Keep without dying that's optimized. It's not about damage it's about survival. If I can outplay with a squishy build that's fine but if I die it's on ME for choosing to be that squishy. That's the difference between PVE and WvW. Your goal is to take objectives and avoid dying a lot.

    I am saying that basic math dictates that there is a limit to how many builds exist which are optimized. No taking a keep in what ever gear you put on is not optimized. That's like saying any stat combination which killed the raid boss is optimized. Small hint, you would lose that argument by miles since the actual stats needed to clear raids are abysmal low.

    And I'm saying that people in WvW are optimized towards not dying which means we still use more stat combinations than people in PVE will ever use. Defensive stats are NOT a thing in PVE. Which is why it did NOT make sense to put the Legendary Armor first into PVE. It would have made better sense to put it into WvW. The fact that they did and then only gave WvW Legendary Armor as an afterthought was bad. No matter what you keep saying I don't care about the raiding aspect anymore (I was interested in a training mode but that conversation devolved long ago). Yes, in PVE you can only optimize towards a tiny amount of what all of the stats that have been released in this game offer.

    I am saying you are comparing suboptimal builds from wvw to maximum optimized builds in raids and you still are. You are even admitting to this.

    I am saying this has nothing to do with your "optimization" and everything to do with the fact that WvW actually bothers to use stats that players in PVE find useless. It's because in WvW those stats ARE viable and useful rather than in PVE. You are saying that you don't care about that and consider all things that 'work" to be "suboptimal" and I'm telling you that's irrelevant to the point I was making. Which was PVE players DO NOT change their stats often enough to warrant having the best shinies when it comes to Legendaries. I am saying because you never have to change them and the only way to get the Legendary Armor means you have to optimize there would be no point for you to want to change that. You keep trying to turn the subject away from the point I've made.

    Viable builds in WvW are optimized for what they are supposed to do. PVE has a sharper point on what they can build because it's more about burst than survival. That's fine but claiming our builds are "suboptimal" shows an ignorance of playing that mode.

    Here's an example:
    WvW build 1 runs berserker splashed with vakyrie and does fine.

    WvW build 2 runs Marauder and does fine.

    According to you both of those builds are optimized. I can tell you strait off the bat, they are not yet they both succeeded. That's not optimization.

    And I'm saying, (which you don't want to hear) that it doesn't matter whether it's "optimized" it matters whether the stat is used. I am saying being able to try out different stats and see if they work with what you're trying to do is USEFUL in WvW not in PVE. I am saying that PVE players DO NOT use all stat combos and it's not a requirement nor is it necessary but WvW is constantly trying new things because you have to counter other people's builds. You are ignoring that other peoples builds are a factor and deliberately dodging it. There are some builds I have to handle specifically vipers/zerkers builds. I will go back to my bank and change out into something that I know can handle it. Why? Because it works. Is it optimal against anything else? Not really but I change build based on what I need at the time not based on what is "the most useful overall" which is a difference in WvW vs PVE.

    I'm saying that because of this innate changing of builds it didn't make sense to give PVE the Shiniest of the Shiny Legendary Armor. Instead you keep throwing out strawman that do not address the point I was making.

    @Ferelwing.8463 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    I already conceded that vitality and toughness make wvw builds more interesting and diverse based on the stats you add. The mere fact that efficiency of certain stat combinations versus others (4-stat items give aproximately 10% more total stats) is higher already makes a huge amount of stat combination useless. Yes, not all 4-stat combinations are in game yet which does make some 3-stat combination useful. But beside that it's mostly shuffle between most 4-stat combination and celestial. That's not even getting into zerging which requires litreally no build if you can position properly.

    You are literally comparing your mediocre and good builds to best in slot maximized performance raid builds. Just as I said.

    You're claiming that you need a piece of gear that lets you slot change on the fly out of combat when you have "optimized builds" without the actual "need" to do any changing. When Ascended would work just as well because you do NOT use the other options available. But somehow that means it's "ok" for you to have it. I am saying that's silly. My builds change based on what I'm doing at the time, yours may too but you don't change it as often because "optimization" which automatically proves my point.

    True, and I'm saying that if your builds were optimized you'd too be changing:

    A. less often since 1 build might work better for multiple things
    B. between less stat combinations since some are stricktly inferior to others thus reducing build diversity
    C. are switching between different playstyles with one of them (zerging) requiring almost no build what so ever

    I build based on what I'm encountering. I have builds built specifically for different specialties and specific types of roamers/zergs I encounter. That's my point.

    I change based on encounter and class. If I'm running an Ele I'm running different gear based on whether I'm going with Weaver or Siren. I play both, I have to change out all my gear based on which of the two I'm using. Add in if I'm playing bunker, healer, roamer, skirmisher, zerg. Each type of gear has it's own strengths and weaknesses and that's not counting the weapons. If I'm running into a lot of condi I have to run things with more condi cleanse etc etc etc... So yeah I have to change my build a lot more often because I optimize it based on encounters not "overall". And yes, I have 3-5 different types depending on what I'm doing at the time because each type of "class" requires different types of optimizations. It's not one size fits all. What I'm doing at any point in the game determines what I'm wearing because sometimes I need more of one type vs the other. A "one size fit's all" works in PVE but not in WvW. If I can't kill that bunker ele because I am too tanky... Without enough burst? That's a build issue. If I get slaughtered by a Condi mes? That's a build problem (not enough cleanse built in). I never know if I'm going to find that condi mes or that bunker ele. I could just "hope" or I could have some optimized builds for what I see most often and hope that I don't have change too much. I have pretty much 2-3 that I use most often but I have 5 total (2 of them are niche and generally involve havoc builds).

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited June 29, 2018
    Raids are fine the way they are, combining bosses of various difficulties

    @Ferelwing.8463 said:
    snip

    Okay I'll make this easy, by your definition any build which works and (let's say some what helps in some way) is viable.

    Fine, then you can start adding just about all the stat combinations here: https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Equipment_acquisition_by_stats

    You do not need to be optimized for damage for pve. You can be optimized for damage but the game certainly does not require you to. I'm sure quite a lot of casual players run their own variation of builds. You can splash some vitality in to make yourself more durable especially if you are less experienced. If your tank permits you can even splash some toughness in. The damage ceiling which needs to get hit in raids is very low so it is more than viable to exchange some offensive stats for defensive ones as long as you succeed. A lot of players do so for HoT or PoF that find it to challenging.

    So, where is the problem now?

  • Voltekka.2375Voltekka.2375 Member ✭✭✭✭
    We need both easy and hard modes

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Ferelwing.8463 said:
    snip

    Okay I'll make this easy, by your definition any build which works and (let's say some what helps in some way) is viable.

    Fine, then you can start adding just about all the stat combinations here: https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Equipment_acquisition_by_stats

    You do not need to be optimized for damage for pve. You can be optimized for damage but the game certainly does not require you to. I'm sure quite a lot of casual players run their own variation of builds. You can splash some vitality in to make yourself more durable especially if you are less experienced. If your tank permits you can even splash some toughness in. The damage ceiling which needs to get hit in raids is very low so it is more than viable to exchange some offensive stats for defensive ones as long as you succeed. A lot of players do so for HoT or PoF that find it to challenging.

    So, where is the problem now?

    Lets be honest, here: an encounters against an AI opponent can never be compared to a human opponent. Thats why pve has more "optimized" builds, as roles are pretty much defined: support chrono/tank druid dps berserker. Lets be honest some more, now: do raid players REALLY use vitality (apart from druid, when magi was meta) toughness (apart from tank)? No, they dont. Wvw builds are optimized depending on what you face. Eg, many necros play trailblazer in zergs (which is laughable). Or when roaming (still laughable). But its in metabattle, so it should be good, eh? Wvw builds heavily rely on zerg compositions, small group compositions, roaming etc. In pve, it is pretty much clear: dps is full zerk or viper, druid full harriers, etc.

  • Ferelwing.8463Ferelwing.8463 Member ✭✭✭
    We need both easy and hard modes

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Ferelwing.8463 said:
    snip

    Okay I'll make this easy, by your definition any build which works and (let's say some what helps in some way) is viable.

    Fine, then you can start adding just about all the stat combinations here: https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Equipment_acquisition_by_stats

    You do not need to be optimized for damage for pve. You can be optimized for damage but the game certainly does not require you to. I'm sure quite a lot of casual players run their own variation of builds. You can splash some vitality in to make yourself more durable especially if you are less experienced. If your tank permits you can even splash some toughness in. The damage ceiling which needs to get hit in raids is very low so it is more than viable to exchange some offensive stats for defensive ones as long as you succeed. A lot of players do so for HoT or PoF that find it to challenging.

    So, where is the problem now?

    The problem? Casuals can't get the Legendary armor without Raiding and raiders start screaming about builds immediately if they try.

    Casuals will eventually adopt the raiders mentality and then their builds become just as "binary" because the optimization in the game is based entirely on NPC's and not countering other people's builds/classes. It still doesn't fix the "overall" PVE/Raiders don't change their builds nearly so often whereas the majority of WvW players do.

    Does it matter? Only when it comes down to skins. Raiders got skins with stat changes that they won't use. WvW had to wait for Legendary Armor to even be an option (and complain on forums). As did sPvp. It came default to PVE and the skin given is much better than the ones given to WvW or sPvP. The people who raid then take on the mentality that they're the only ones who are worthy of Legendary gear and the rest of the people are pleebs. There is much "well I have to do something I didn't like to get a piece of my gear" rather than recognize getting Gift of Battle isn't even that long/hard and doesn't require nearly as much of a time committment (or hassle) as getting a full set of Legendary Gear in PVE. Which goes round and round till my head starts to spin. If we agreed that perhaps ALL modes should have had cool Legendary Skins and they should have been released at the time. I'd stop commenting on it. Instead a common theme is to basically call me "lazy" or "wanting a hand-out" when I just think the skin could use an upgrade and I think the entire "PVE gets the best of the best" is a little silly.

    Is it all Raiders? No but enough loud mouthed ones make it so that those of us who want nicer skins feel like the only way to raise the issue is to come to this forum and point it out. The general response then tends to be "defending the reason why they get better skins" rather than saying "Yeah, that's kind of unfair."

  • Ferelwing.8463Ferelwing.8463 Member ✭✭✭
    We need both easy and hard modes

    @Voltekka.2375 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Ferelwing.8463 said:
    snip

    Okay I'll make this easy, by your definition any build which works and (let's say some what helps in some way) is viable.

    Fine, then you can start adding just about all the stat combinations here: https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Equipment_acquisition_by_stats

    You do not need to be optimized for damage for pve. You can be optimized for damage but the game certainly does not require you to. I'm sure quite a lot of casual players run their own variation of builds. You can splash some vitality in to make yourself more durable especially if you are less experienced. If your tank permits you can even splash some toughness in. The damage ceiling which needs to get hit in raids is very low so it is more than viable to exchange some offensive stats for defensive ones as long as you succeed. A lot of players do so for HoT or PoF that find it to challenging.

    So, where is the problem now?

    Lets be honest, here: an encounters against an AI opponent can never be compared to a human opponent. Thats why pve has more "optimized" builds, as roles are pretty much defined: support chrono/tank druid dps berserker. Lets be honest some more, now: do raid players REALLY use vitality (apart from druid, when magi was meta) toughness (apart from tank)? No, they dont. Wvw builds are optimized depending on what you face. Eg, many necros play trailblazer in zergs (which is laughable). Or when roaming (still laughable). But its in metabattle, so it should be good, eh? Wvw builds heavily rely on zerg compositions, small group compositions, roaming etc. In pve, it is pretty much clear: dps is full zerk or viper, druid full harriers, etc.

    Exactly! This, if you're encountering an NPC it's pretty easy to figure out what you need to build. Facing humans is completely different and it requires optimizing against the more common builds you encounter (plus having your pocket builds for when you encounter specific irritants.)

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited June 29, 2018
    Raids are fine the way they are, combining bosses of various difficulties

    @Voltekka.2375 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Ferelwing.8463 said:
    snip

    Okay I'll make this easy, by your definition any build which works and (let's say some what helps in some way) is viable.

    Fine, then you can start adding just about all the stat combinations here: https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Equipment_acquisition_by_stats

    You do not need to be optimized for damage for pve. You can be optimized for damage but the game certainly does not require you to. I'm sure quite a lot of casual players run their own variation of builds. You can splash some vitality in to make yourself more durable especially if you are less experienced. If your tank permits you can even splash some toughness in. The damage ceiling which needs to get hit in raids is very low so it is more than viable to exchange some offensive stats for defensive ones as long as you succeed. A lot of players do so for HoT or PoF that find it to challenging.

    So, where is the problem now?

    Lets be honest, here: an encounters against an AI opponent can never be compared to a human opponent. Thats why pve has more "optimized" builds, as roles are pretty much defined: support chrono/tank druid dps berserker. Lets be honest some more, now: do raid players REALLY use vitality (apart from druid, when magi was meta) toughness (apart from tank)? No, they dont. Wvw builds are optimized depending on what you face. Eg, many necros play trailblazer in zergs (which is laughable). Or when roaming (still laughable). But its in metabattle, so it should be good, eh? Wvw builds heavily rely on zerg compositions, small group compositions, roaming etc. In pve, it is pretty much clear: dps is full zerk or viper, druid full harriers, etc.

    Thank you, at least one person gets it. Yes pve builds are more optimized and yes there is more variety in wvw builds (which for the 3rd or 4th time I have agreed to).

    I'm disagreeing with how much this varierty difference is apart if compared under similar fair circumstances. Many stat combos are mathematically not viable and strait up inferior. The fact that not many people have optimized their wvw builds or aim to achieve different break points (also dictated by their own skill and comfort zone) is nothing more or less than people in pve adapting to their skill level and say using marauders instead of berserker. The fact that this gets done less in pve is simply because there are resources to use which dictate what stats to use (something which is not as easily available, developed or shared in wvw).

  • vesica tempestas.1563vesica tempestas.1563 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited June 29, 2018
    We need both easy and hard modes

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Voltekka.2375 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Ferelwing.8463 said:
    snip

    Okay I'll make this easy, by your definition any build which works and (let's say some what helps in some way) is viable.

    Fine, then you can start adding just about all the stat combinations here: https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Equipment_acquisition_by_stats

    You do not need to be optimized for damage for pve. You can be optimized for damage but the game certainly does not require you to. I'm sure quite a lot of casual players run their own variation of builds. You can splash some vitality in to make yourself more durable especially if you are less experienced. If your tank permits you can even splash some toughness in. The damage ceiling which needs to get hit in raids is very low so it is more than viable to exchange some offensive stats for defensive ones as long as you succeed. A lot of players do so for HoT or PoF that find it to challenging.

    So, where is the problem now?

    Lets be honest, here: an encounters against an AI opponent can never be compared to a human opponent. Thats why pve has more "optimized" builds, as roles are pretty much defined: support chrono/tank druid dps berserker. Lets be honest some more, now: do raid players REALLY use vitality (apart from druid, when magi was meta) toughness (apart from tank)? No, they dont. Wvw builds are optimized depending on what you face. Eg, many necros play trailblazer in zergs (which is laughable). Or when roaming (still laughable). But its in metabattle, so it should be good, eh? Wvw builds heavily rely on zerg compositions, small group compositions, roaming etc. In pve, it is pretty much clear: dps is full zerk or viper, druid full harriers, etc.

    Thank you, at least one person gets it. Yes pve builds are more optimized and yes there is more variety in wvw builds (which for the 3rd or 4th time I have agreed to).

    I'm disagreeing with how much this varierty difference is apart if compared under similar fair circumstances. Many stat combos are mathematically not viable and strait up inferior. The fact that not many people have optimized their wvw builds or aim to achieve different break points (also dictated by their own skill and comfort zone) is nothing more or less than people in pve adapting to their skill level and say using marauders instead of berserker. The fact that this gets done less in pve is simply because there are resources to use which dictate what stats to use (something which is not as easily available, developed or shared in wvw).

    In pve raids its all about optimisation, but in wvw you have much more freedom to experiment with builds for pleasure and scenarios, i.e a bursty cannon, a tanker, a bruiser, a backline dps, a small group roamer where you optimise to match the group etc, all with full power, full condy or a mix, heavy heal, lower heal, no heal, unusual skill combos, boon play, some toughness etc etc. Anything and everything to surprise and unsettle an opponent (and bring variety to gameplay). You dont surprise scripted pve bosses, they pummel away through their scripted rotations.

    an example, at the moment i play a weapon choice as ele that is very unfavoured and not 'optimal' at the moment but im getting a hell of a lot of success because opponents don't expect things that are happening. Every now and then though i will switch it up depending on mood and what i'm participating on. This is in the spirit of early GW in a way - huge skill ranges and options to experiment, all viable when you are not tunnelled on a particular meta and can switch it up easily.

    "Any path that narrows future possibilities may become a lethal trap. Humans do not thread their way through a maze; they scan a vast horizon filled with unique opportunities." - The Spacing Guild Handbook.

    Beware the meta!

  • Astralporing.1957Astralporing.1957 Member ✭✭✭✭
    We need an easy mode, but not a hard mode

    @Cyninja.2954 said:
    I am saying that basic math dictates that there is a limit to how many builds exist which are optimized.

    Sure, but you are missing that the "optimization" parameters in WvW are much more fuzzy and fluid than in raids. In raids, you can ignore a lot of factors, because you depend on other people to cover them, and because the environment you optimize for is much more predictable and controlable. In WvW it doesn't work that way.

    In raids, if you have two builds, one of which offers better dps, while other offers better survival, the first is straight better, because the survival factor can be ignored. You learn to avoid the predictable mechanics, and depend on your healer for that. In WvW, you not only must include that factor, but you need to think also about other things (like mobility, disengage capability, etc). You can't include everything you might want, so you need to decide where you will invest more, and on which you'll skimp.
    And here is the problem - all those things are important. There's no math that will tell you what balance of those things is perfect, because their relative worth is not so clear (and even if it was, that balance point changes from moment to moment).

    Did you ever change class/build between raid encounters? Then remember, that in WvW you shift from encounter to encounter, without ability to be sure about what encounter will happen next. And there are no builds that are universal, and are good for all the situations.

    @Cyninja.2954 said:
    Here's an example:
    WvW build 1 runs berserker splashed with vakyrie and does fine.

    WvW build 2 runs Marauder and does fine.

    According to you both of those builds are optimized. I can tell you strait off the bat, they are not yet they both succeeded. That's not optimization.

    Okay. So one runs berserker, one runs berserker with valkyrie, one runs marauder. Which one is better optimized? And for what?

    @Cyninja.2954 said:
    True, and I'm saying that if your builds were optimized you'd too be changing:

    A. less often since 1 build might work better for multiple things

    Only if your "optimization" goal is to have an universal build. Notice, that it's quite possible such a build would perform worse in any and every situation it'd be used.

    B. between less stat combinations since some are stricktly inferior to others thus reducing build diversity
    C. are switching between different playstyles with one of them (zerging) requiring almost no build what so ever

    Oh? So suddenly there's no optimization for zerging?
    (spoiler: a zerg where most players use that assumption dies to a group with players that actually have an idea what they're doing and why)

    @Cyninja.2954 said:
    @Ferelwing.8463 you changed your reply, I'm going to keep the old one in but to your new reply: I disagree that the amount of stat combination finding use is such higher than pve from an optimization stand point.

    That's likely because you're mostly unaware what "optimization" for WvW actually entails.

    @Cyninja.2954 said:
    For most ideas and setups there is a best in slot and the fact that something worked does not mean that the build could not have been made better or more efficient with say more overall stats.

    Indeed. It's just that generally you would be choosing to optimize for a much wider range of goals, and thus will have a much wider range of optimized builds.

    The whole point of a social game is to play with the people you want to play with, not be forced to play with the people you don't.

  • nia.4725nia.4725 Member ✭✭✭
    Raids are fine the way they are, combining bosses of various difficulties

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Ferelwing.8463 said:

    @Voltekka.2375 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Voltekka.2375 said:

    @nia.4725 said:

    @Feanor.2358 said:

    @nia.4725 said:

    @Ferelwing.8463 said:

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @mortrialus.3062 said:
    Literally every raider I know plays multi class and if they're heavy, for example will swap between power,condi, and hand kiter from fight to fight in a single night of raiding across three classes.

    I know a number of raiders like that (condi berserker, power dh, handkiting/healing rev, for example. Or weaver, chronotank, condi mirage, condi scourge, for an light armor example). None of them transfer armor sets between characters, even if they have a legendary (and most of them do have it). They all have separate characters for that, all with full gear.
    The only case of actual use of legendary armor i saw was on chronotank that was switching back and forth between commander and minstrel setup.

    Basically, changing stats is one thing. Transferring gear between characters and changing stats on top of it is way too much of a hassle for most people to actually do that. Eeven people with legendary gear usually just get an additional (ascended) set for that.

    I was trying to point out that the stat choices in PVE are binary. Before I set foot into WvW I thought the majority of the stat combinations were obsolete and useless. It surprised me that Anet even offered them because I couldn't figure out who would need them. It was either Condi or Zerkers. After stepping into WvW it was an eye-opener and I find myself experimenting with different stat combinations, the problem being that I'm still working on the Legendary set in WvW so having 3 toons that I play exclusively in WvW with several different ascended gear sets (based on what I will need based on server population and what kind of build is needed at the time..) has made a mess of my inventory and bank space. Legendary Armor will be a space saver!

    WvW and raids are completely different. Raids are instanced content played by a maximum of 10 people, so the stat choices are very limited; you need to compress as much as possible everything the squad needs (DPS, support, etc). A celestial DPS would not deal enough damage, and if DPS started using hybrid gear (gear half supportive half damage), things like dedicated healers like druid would become a waste. But druids not only give heals, you know. Druids are necessary because of the insane amount of utility and damage buffs they give, and that will never be covered by any hybrid or self-sufficient build. Same with chronos. I agree that it's sad that the build diversity in raids is so little, I really really do.

    Aw, come on. Raid meta is twice as diverse as the WvW one. 95% of everything you'll find in a WvW squad is Scourge, Firebrand and Spellbreaker.

    But WvW is not just zerging, you know. Roaming builds are much more diverse. And raid builds aren't diverse, you can't just come up with something completely unique and get it to be usefull. It's either a heal build, a boon build, a condi build or a condi build.

    Shhh. You are making sense, now. Of course wvw has much more variety on builds than raids do. But people will go to any length to defend their argument, no matter how absurd

    Sorry but are you seriously comparing meta best in slot raid builds with just any wvw build which might work? Even more against weak pve players trying to catch the zerg?

    WvW top end builds are way less diverse than people make them out to be here.

    If we are to take all decent or "that works too" raid builds which are not posted on snowcrows or similar sites the variety of builds increases for raids as well.

    The amount of uniqueness in wvw builds comes from the diversity in opponents and their varying skill level. That's not to say you can't stick to one of the best in slot builde and trash any one you meet. Even worse one of the flavor classes. Go run a proper trailblazer/viper Mirage and see how many unique builds will outplay you. That's not build diversity. That's opponent diversity skill level.

    I'll give you that wvw does make vitality and toughness actually useful thus adding variety. But that is basically as far as it goes. The amount of overpowered stat combos or used stats in wvw is barely higher than raids. Celestial, berseker, trailblazer and maybe some viper/minstrel or harrier splashing.

    If you really think that wvw build variety can be compared to raid build variety (or even fractal build variety), maybe you only play metabattle wvw builds. Personally, I use 5-6 nec builds, 4ele builds, 3-4 guard builds (cant wait to test plaguedoctor), 3 reve builds, and the list goes on. I think raiders use waaaay less builds. And, yes, those builds i mentioned are viable.

    Yeah same. I don't NEED metabattle to dictate it and my guild is constantly testing out different builds that work. When we're zerging we optimize towards what we're planning to do. More often then not we're running Havoc so our builds involve a mix. In fact quite a few of us DON'T talk about our builds outside of Guild because for us it's kinda fun to surprise people.

    But yeah exactly.

    Which is no proof that those builds are unique and optimized. All that is proof of is that they performed and got the job done. That's not optimization. You are comparing okay builds to highly optimized raid builds.

    I already conceded that vitality and toughness make wvw builds more interesting and diverse based on the stats you add. The mere fact that efficiency of certain stat combinations versus others (4-stat items give aproximately 10% more total stats) is higher already makes a huge amount of stat combination useless. Yes, not all 4-stat combinations are in game yet which does make some 3-stat combination useful. But beside that it's mostly shuffle between most 4-stat combination and celestial. That's not even getting into zerging which requires litreally no build if you can position properly.

    You are literally comparing your mediocre and good builds to best in slot maximized performance raid builds. Just as I said.

    My raid leader is very experienced in creating builds. He has every aspect of any build completely studied and makes sure they are always completely optimised (he even has a table with the % of stats gained between 3-stat and 4-stat gear, depending on the piece of gear). He creates our raid builds. And he also created my previous guild wvw builds, both for zerging and roaming. My celestial condi druid and berserker warrior, marauder holosmith, power marauder chrono, trailblazer mirage, marauder weaver, minstrel firebrand, cele herald.. Before anet killed his favorite build, he played a full commander warrior build and he completely slayed with it.

    So no. You're generalizing something you actually don't know. I'm sure some people just pick whatever, but I've seen my pve raid leader create full optimised and minmaxed builds for both raids and zerging+roaming. And those for wvw are far more diverse than those that we use in my static, even considering the fact that my static build diversity is bigger than snowcrows' meta.

    Handkiter slave. / Cat Fletcher, Cho Jinri, Elettra Hart, Anima Schirmer, La Que Ama, B I T T E R N E S S

  • nia.4725nia.4725 Member ✭✭✭
    Raids are fine the way they are, combining bosses of various difficulties

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:
    I am saying that basic math dictates that there is a limit to how many builds exist which are optimized.

    Sure, but you are missing that the "optimization" parameters in WvW are much more fuzzy and fluid than in raids. In raids, you can ignore a lot of factors, because you depend on other people to cover them, and because the environment you optimize for is much more predictable and controlable. In WvW it doesn't work that way.

    In raids, if you have two builds, one of which offers better dps, while other offers better survival, the first is straight better, because the survival factor can be ignored. You learn to avoid the predictable mechanics, and depend on your healer for that. In WvW, you not only must include that factor, but you need to think also about other things (like mobility, disengage capability, etc). You can't include everything you might want, so you need to decide where you will invest more, and on which you'll skimp.
    And here is the problem - all those things are important. There's no math that will tell you what balance of those things is perfect, because their relative worth is not so clear (and even if it was, that balance point changes from moment to moment).

    Did you ever change class/build between raid encounters? Then remember, that in WvW you shift from encounter to encounter, without ability to be sure about what encounter will happen next. And there are no builds that are universal, and are good for all the situations.

    @Cyninja.2954 said:
    Here's an example:
    WvW build 1 runs berserker splashed with vakyrie and does fine.

    WvW build 2 runs Marauder and does fine.

    According to you both of those builds are optimized. I can tell you strait off the bat, they are not yet they both succeeded. That's not optimization.

    Okay. So one runs berserker, one runs berserker with valkyrie, one runs marauder. Which one is better optimized? And for what?

    @Cyninja.2954 said:
    True, and I'm saying that if your builds were optimized you'd too be changing:

    A. less often since 1 build might work better for multiple things

    Only if your "optimization" goal is to have an universal build. Notice, that it's quite possible such a build would perform worse in any and every situation it'd be used.

    B. between less stat combinations since some are stricktly inferior to others thus reducing build diversity
    C. are switching between different playstyles with one of them (zerging) requiring almost no build what so ever

    Oh? So suddenly there's no optimization for zerging?
    (spoiler: a zerg where most players use that assumption dies to a group with players that actually have an idea what they're doing and why)

    @Cyninja.2954 said:
    @Ferelwing.8463 you changed your reply, I'm going to keep the old one in but to your new reply: I disagree that the amount of stat combination finding use is such higher than pve from an optimization stand point.

    That's likely because you're mostly unaware what "optimization" for WvW actually entails.

    @Cyninja.2954 said:
    For most ideas and setups there is a best in slot and the fact that something worked does not mean that the build could not have been made better or more efficient with say more overall stats.

    Indeed. It's just that generally you would be choosing to optimize for a much wider range of goals, and thus will have a much wider range of optimized builds.

    Just a side note: a good raider does change the build depending on the encounter. Usually not the stats, but the skills, the weapons and some traits. I can give you some examples based on my static builds: chrono in sloth - full regular chrono build w focus and focus trait, res trait, using domi inspi. Chrono in matthias - regular chrono with pistol, no res trait. Chrono in sabetha - minstrel chaos chronoheal, with the healing wells trait, because we don't use druids there. Druid in escort going towers - wolf as pet, double staff, breakstun, glyph of tides, strength of the pack, fury trait. Druid no towers - jungle spider and jacaranda with entangle, staff axe/wh, wh trait. The list is very, very long.

    Handkiter slave. / Cat Fletcher, Cho Jinri, Elettra Hart, Anima Schirmer, La Que Ama, B I T T E R N E S S

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭
    Raids have problems, but we need a better solution

    I'm gonna answer once more although this thread has moved away of the topic and now it's derailed completely.

    @Ferelwing.8463 said:
    Also, wearing zerkers generally means you're squishy. You will die to siege attacks (arrow carts are particularly strong against anyone running vipers and zerkers because less defensive stats). Of course if you've ranked up against siege it's not as damaging. Also, running zerkers means you will die if someone invuln's your initial burst. You don't have many protections. Now there are two classes that can get away with it because of their innate kit (Reapers/Wars) but the rest of the classes get killed. If you run into a bad player or someone not expecting your burst you might kill them. Mapchat usually follows: Found a zerkers/condi (insert champ) near (location) that tends to mean that you'll be hunted down as a free bag later. At least that's what my team does.

    And you are talking again about this wonderful thing called roaming. The most loved play style of this game that everyone in WvW runs, oh wait they do not, roamers are rather rare. I see "roamers" mostly as campers that kill unsuspecting PVE players that are trying to finish their dailies. The most dishonorable and cowardly behavior in the entire game, remnant of some other games with open world PVP, but you can say that's my experience with them. The toxicity of raiders pales in comparison to these "roamers". The classes that can get away by using damage stats is Mesmer and Thief, because of their innate kit (clones/stealth). Seriously, the Ghost Thief build was full Viper when it was a thing, there is no need for defensive gear if they can't even hit you.

    Depends on the server and depends on the squad. When zerging in a PUG it's not as common because people just join up with the nearest tag and go where-ever. When you have an actual plan as to what you're going for then you change your build to meet that plan.

    I've never been in a squad "with a plan". Probably a server thing. I'm curious though, does that "tag with a plan" get access to better rewards than the PUG tag? IS there any benefit in having it, other than saying you are running something optimized and steam rolling through unorganized opposing PUG squads?

    PVE still doesn't rely on any kind of defensive stats. It's burst it down and whatever build does more burst wins. (Sure there are exceptions as mentioned previously)

    WvW doesn't rely on ANY stats. I can go to WVW as a level 2 character out of the tutorial and have my fun there. The idea that WvW somehow "needs" the optimized builds to play is a lie. You don't need a good build to get participation and get the rewards of the game mode. Your good build won't get you more rewards, nor unique rewards, which is why adding Legendary Armor to WVW was a mistake. Fortunately the skins are similar to the Ascended version, which is appropriate.

    Unless they find a way to reward it only to those using proper builds, are properly invested in the game mode and have some semblance of skill, adding Legendary Armor to WVW was mostly to entice PVE players to get to the game mode. If they ever manage to pull that off, like adding a proper GvG 15vs15 game mode to the game, where everyone's build matters and strategy, planning and team work is key, then they could add the flashiest Legendary Skin to it. Something like this suggestion: https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/45470/could-there-ever-be-a-chance-of-15vs15-arena Similarly, the tournament reward skin from PVP needs an overhaul because unlike the regular PVP Legendary skin, which is a simple grind, that takes skill/effort to get.

    And to have at least a tiny bit on-topic argument for a change, if there was another way of getting Legendary Armor in PVE, then all those new souls playing WVW wouldn't be there. Now is that a good or a bad thing? That's the big question.

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited June 30, 2018
    Raids are fine the way they are, combining bosses of various difficulties

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:
    I am saying that basic math dictates that there is a limit to how many builds exist which are optimized.

    Sure, but you are missing that the "optimization" parameters in WvW are much more fuzzy and fluid than in raids. In raids, you can ignore a lot of factors, because you depend on other people to cover them, and because the environment you optimize for is much more predictable and controlable. In WvW it doesn't work that way.

    In raids, if you have two builds, one of which offers better dps, while other offers better survival, the first is straight better, because the survival factor can be ignored. You learn to avoid the predictable mechanics, and depend on your healer for that. In WvW, you not only must include that factor, but you need to think also about other things (like mobility, disengage capability, etc). You can't include everything you might want, so you need to decide where you will invest more, and on which you'll skimp.
    And here is the problem - all those things are important. There's no math that will tell you what balance of those things is perfect, because their relative worth is not so clear (and even if it was, that balance point changes from moment to moment).

    Did you ever change class/build between raid encounters? Then remember, that in WvW you shift from encounter to encounter, without ability to be sure about what encounter will happen next. And there are no builds that are universal, and are good for all the situations.

    In raids you have x-amount of builds unless you look at the absolute top end. I don't understand why you get to do so for one game mode yet are fine comparing to another game mode under the assumption that multiple builds are "the best" only because they function. That's what I'm criticizing. Yes builds in wvw are more fluid but that is also because there is multiple factors which remove easy optimization starting with the players own skill level.

    Yes, as a matter of fact if you played raids in a static you not only change builds but classes between encounters because no damage dealer (or group composition) is best for all bosses. Paired with changing traits. How often do you see WvW players change class and re-queue for over 1 hour in the top brackets? Never that's why they have to make due with less optimized builds.

    Here we are comparing specialized meta builds for a game mode, played by mediocre players who do not run optimized class compositions to another game mode with a more fluid builds were people need to use what they can on sub-optimal classes for certain roles. That does not seem fair to me.

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:
    Here's an example:
    WvW build 1 runs berserker splashed with vakyrie and does fine.

    WvW build 2 runs Marauder and does fine.

    According to you both of those builds are optimized. I can tell you strait off the bat, they are not yet they both succeeded. That's not optimization.

    Okay. So one runs berserker, one runs berserker with valkyrie, one runs marauder. Which one is better optimized? And for what?

    Whoooosh strait over your head. Let me explain:

    Splashing in Valkyrie has exactly 1 benefit over full berserker: more vitality.

    http://en.gw2skills.net/editor/
    Full zerker, relevant stats: 2382 Power, 1000 vitality, 1960 precision, 960 ferocity

    http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vJAQJARBA-jFBXgA/q/8oEEQ5XouAA-w
    Zerker splashed with Valkyrie relevant stats: 2382 Power, 1315 Vitality, 1625 Precision, 960 ferocity

    http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vJAQJARBA-jVBXAB9o+jwKzAQpxzKBFVXAA-w
    Zerker Splashed with Marauder relevant stats: 2275 Power, 1314 Vitality, 2069 Precision, 799 ferocity

    Total loss of stats between Valkyrie and Marauder = 175. That is before accounting for more or less required survivability based on player skill level. Valkyrie is almost completely a useless stat to splash when going for more vitality in a wvw build. The ONLY reason it has some meaning is due to the limited availability of 4-set bonuses to optimize the stats perfectly. Yet according to the definition: it worked thus it must be fine there is no issue with this grave loss of stats.

    I have already agreed that wvw uses more stats (now for the 5th time) but disagree that every unique snowflake builds can be compared to maximum optimized pve meta builds.

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:
    True, and I'm saying that if your builds were optimized you'd too be changing:

    A. less often since 1 build might work better for multiple things

    Only if your "optimization" goal is to have an universal build. Notice, that it's quite possible such a build would perform worse in any and every situation it'd be used.

    B. between less stat combinations since some are stricktly inferior to others thus reducing build diversity
    C. are switching between different playstyles with one of them (zerging) requiring almost no build what so ever

    Oh? So suddenly there's no optimization for zerging?
    (spoiler: a zerg where most players use that assumption dies to a group with players that actually have an idea what they're doing and why)

    There is no optimization when the most you do is stack as much toughness as you can and then faceroll into the enemy. For everything else, positioning and good play can account for success a lot more than stat diversity.

    @Cyninja.2954 said:
    @Ferelwing.8463 you changed your reply, I'm going to keep the old one in but to your new reply: I disagree that the amount of stat combination finding use is such higher than pve from an optimization stand point.

    That's likely because you're mostly unaware what "optimization" for WvW actually entails.

    I'm fully aware what optimization for wvw entails. I still don't see people who claim to run 10 different builds on 1 class to have optimized their builds. That is not to say their builds don't work or are not well made.

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:
    For most ideas and setups there is a best in slot and the fact that something worked does not mean that the build could not have been made better or more efficient with say more overall stats.

    Indeed. It's just that generally you would be choosing to optimize for a much wider range of goals, and thus will have a much wider range of optimized builds.

    Yet there would be an ideal class (or 2-3 classes) and setup to achieve each of those goals. The fact that you can't change classes in wvw combined with the fact that the encounters are less predicted and plan-able leads to a band-aid solution of having to make all classes viable in some way. That is exactly the same as using any build which would succeed at a raid encounter. Which makes the build variety used in pve a lot bigger than purely the given meta builds.

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭
    Raids are fine the way they are, combining bosses of various difficulties

    @nia.4725 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Ferelwing.8463 said:

    @Voltekka.2375 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Voltekka.2375 said:

    @nia.4725 said:

    @Feanor.2358 said:

    @nia.4725 said:

    @Ferelwing.8463 said:

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @mortrialus.3062 said:
    Literally every raider I know plays multi class and if they're heavy, for example will swap between power,condi, and hand kiter from fight to fight in a single night of raiding across three classes.

    I know a number of raiders like that (condi berserker, power dh, handkiting/healing rev, for example. Or weaver, chronotank, condi mirage, condi scourge, for an light armor example). None of them transfer armor sets between characters, even if they have a legendary (and most of them do have it). They all have separate characters for that, all with full gear.
    The only case of actual use of legendary armor i saw was on chronotank that was switching back and forth between commander and minstrel setup.

    Basically, changing stats is one thing. Transferring gear between characters and changing stats on top of it is way too much of a hassle for most people to actually do that. Eeven people with legendary gear usually just get an additional (ascended) set for that.

    I was trying to point out that the stat choices in PVE are binary. Before I set foot into WvW I thought the majority of the stat combinations were obsolete and useless. It surprised me that Anet even offered them because I couldn't figure out who would need them. It was either Condi or Zerkers. After stepping into WvW it was an eye-opener and I find myself experimenting with different stat combinations, the problem being that I'm still working on the Legendary set in WvW so having 3 toons that I play exclusively in WvW with several different ascended gear sets (based on what I will need based on server population and what kind of build is needed at the time..) has made a mess of my inventory and bank space. Legendary Armor will be a space saver!

    WvW and raids are completely different. Raids are instanced content played by a maximum of 10 people, so the stat choices are very limited; you need to compress as much as possible everything the squad needs (DPS, support, etc). A celestial DPS would not deal enough damage, and if DPS started using hybrid gear (gear half supportive half damage), things like dedicated healers like druid would become a waste. But druids not only give heals, you know. Druids are necessary because of the insane amount of utility and damage buffs they give, and that will never be covered by any hybrid or self-sufficient build. Same with chronos. I agree that it's sad that the build diversity in raids is so little, I really really do.

    Aw, come on. Raid meta is twice as diverse as the WvW one. 95% of everything you'll find in a WvW squad is Scourge, Firebrand and Spellbreaker.

    But WvW is not just zerging, you know. Roaming builds are much more diverse. And raid builds aren't diverse, you can't just come up with something completely unique and get it to be usefull. It's either a heal build, a boon build, a condi build or a condi build.

    Shhh. You are making sense, now. Of course wvw has much more variety on builds than raids do. But people will go to any length to defend their argument, no matter how absurd

    Sorry but are you seriously comparing meta best in slot raid builds with just any wvw build which might work? Even more against weak pve players trying to catch the zerg?

    WvW top end builds are way less diverse than people make them out to be here.

    If we are to take all decent or "that works too" raid builds which are not posted on snowcrows or similar sites the variety of builds increases for raids as well.

    The amount of uniqueness in wvw builds comes from the diversity in opponents and their varying skill level. That's not to say you can't stick to one of the best in slot builde and trash any one you meet. Even worse one of the flavor classes. Go run a proper trailblazer/viper Mirage and see how many unique builds will outplay you. That's not build diversity. That's opponent diversity skill level.

    I'll give you that wvw does make vitality and toughness actually useful thus adding variety. But that is basically as far as it goes. The amount of overpowered stat combos or used stats in wvw is barely higher than raids. Celestial, berseker, trailblazer and maybe some viper/minstrel or harrier splashing.

    If you really think that wvw build variety can be compared to raid build variety (or even fractal build variety), maybe you only play metabattle wvw builds. Personally, I use 5-6 nec builds, 4ele builds, 3-4 guard builds (cant wait to test plaguedoctor), 3 reve builds, and the list goes on. I think raiders use waaaay less builds. And, yes, those builds i mentioned are viable.

    Yeah same. I don't NEED metabattle to dictate it and my guild is constantly testing out different builds that work. When we're zerging we optimize towards what we're planning to do. More often then not we're running Havoc so our builds involve a mix. In fact quite a few of us DON'T talk about our builds outside of Guild because for us it's kinda fun to surprise people.

    But yeah exactly.

    Which is no proof that those builds are unique and optimized. All that is proof of is that they performed and got the job done. That's not optimization. You are comparing okay builds to highly optimized raid builds.

    I already conceded that vitality and toughness make wvw builds more interesting and diverse based on the stats you add. The mere fact that efficiency of certain stat combinations versus others (4-stat items give aproximately 10% more total stats) is higher already makes a huge amount of stat combination useless. Yes, not all 4-stat combinations are in game yet which does make some 3-stat combination useful. But beside that it's mostly shuffle between most 4-stat combination and celestial. That's not even getting into zerging which requires litreally no build if you can position properly.

    You are literally comparing your mediocre and good builds to best in slot maximized performance raid builds. Just as I said.

    My raid leader is very experienced in creating builds. He has every aspect of any build completely studied and makes sure they are always completely optimised (he even has a table with the % of stats gained between 3-stat and 4-stat gear, depending on the piece of gear). He creates our raid builds. And he also created my previous guild wvw builds, both for zerging and roaming. My celestial condi druid and berserker warrior, marauder holosmith, power marauder chrono, trailblazer mirage, marauder weaver, minstrel firebrand, cele herald.. Before anet killed his favorite build, he played a full commander warrior build and he completely slayed with it.

    Great example, of those specialized builds, how many were you running per class? Were you cycling through 10 different equally specialized builds or were you cycling through say a zerging build, a small scale build and a solo build?

    @nia.4725 said:
    So no. You're generalizing something you actually don't know. I'm sure some people just pick whatever, but I've seen my pve raid leader create full optimised and minmaxed builds for both raids and zerging+roaming. And those for wvw are far more diverse than those that we use in my static, even considering the fact that my static build diversity is bigger than snowcrows' meta.

    I'm quite sure a similar amount of people just copy their build out of metabattle as raider do from snowcrows. I'm quite sure not many optimize their builds perfectly, you yourself aren't even doing the work but get it handed to you by someone else.

    Yes, I've already agreed (now for the 6th time) that wvw builds are more diverse since they require 2 additional stats to get used. Still disagree that it's this stellar difference if you compare the top ends.

  • mortrialus.3062mortrialus.3062 Member ✭✭✭✭
    Raids are fine the way they are, combining bosses of various difficulties

    @Feanor.2358 said:

    @nia.4725 said:

    @Ferelwing.8463 said:

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @mortrialus.3062 said:
    Literally every raider I know plays multi class and if they're heavy, for example will swap between power,condi, and hand kiter from fight to fight in a single night of raiding across three classes.

    I know a number of raiders like that (condi berserker, power dh, handkiting/healing rev, for example. Or weaver, chronotank, condi mirage, condi scourge, for an light armor example). None of them transfer armor sets between characters, even if they have a legendary (and most of them do have it). They all have separate characters for that, all with full gear.
    The only case of actual use of legendary armor i saw was on chronotank that was switching back and forth between commander and minstrel setup.

    Basically, changing stats is one thing. Transferring gear between characters and changing stats on top of it is way too much of a hassle for most people to actually do that. Eeven people with legendary gear usually just get an additional (ascended) set for that.

    I was trying to point out that the stat choices in PVE are binary. Before I set foot into WvW I thought the majority of the stat combinations were obsolete and useless. It surprised me that Anet even offered them because I couldn't figure out who would need them. It was either Condi or Zerkers. After stepping into WvW it was an eye-opener and I find myself experimenting with different stat combinations, the problem being that I'm still working on the Legendary set in WvW so having 3 toons that I play exclusively in WvW with several different ascended gear sets (based on what I will need based on server population and what kind of build is needed at the time..) has made a mess of my inventory and bank space. Legendary Armor will be a space saver!

    WvW and raids are completely different. Raids are instanced content played by a maximum of 10 people, so the stat choices are very limited; you need to compress as much as possible everything the squad needs (DPS, support, etc). A celestial DPS would not deal enough damage, and if DPS started using hybrid gear (gear half supportive half damage), things like dedicated healers like druid would become a waste. But druids not only give heals, you know. Druids are necessary because of the insane amount of utility and damage buffs they give, and that will never be covered by any hybrid or self-sufficient build. Same with chronos. I agree that it's sad that the build diversity in raids is so little, I really really do.

    Aw, come on. Raid meta is twice as diverse as the WvW one. 95% of everything you'll find in a WvW squad is Scourge, Firebrand and Spellbreaker.

    WvW's build diversity is high for the same reason why open world PvE's build diversity is so high; when it's zerg vs zerg no one cares whether you're pulling your weight. It just matters which side has the bigger numbers. With roaming builds that are actually designed to compete against other builds competently, there's a more strict standard of builds just like with SPvP and PvE.

    Best Dressed Memser NA.

  • nia.4725nia.4725 Member ✭✭✭
    Raids are fine the way they are, combining bosses of various difficulties

    @Cyninja.2954 said:
    Great example, of those specialized builds, how many were you running per class? Were you cycling through 10 different equally specialized builds or were you cycling through say a zerging build, a small scale build and a solo build?

    The answer is pretty obvious, I don't get what you're trying to prove with your question. A single person can't have 2987459825 builds for the same class, it's a matter of inventory space and economy, but that doesn't mean that build diversity is low. I don't wvw (I only do solo or duo roaming now and then), but for what I know, since they are a static group, they have defined the builds they will use. One or two per class, I think, since my raid leader created different set-ups (you know, groups have to be organised, you can't just throw whatever build in the group; they have to sinergise). So the result was that on monday, he played minstrel firebrand; on tuesday, he played celestial reaper; on wednesday, marauder holo... etc.

    I'm quite sure a similar amount of people just copy their build out of metabattle as raider do from snowcrows. I'm quite sure not many optimize their builds perfectly, you yourself aren't even doing the work but get it handed to you by someone else.

    Yes, I've already agreed (now for the 6th time) that wvw builds are more diverse since they require 2 additional stats to get used. Still disagree that it's this stellar difference if you compare the top ends.

    Not stellar, but still more diverse. Raid build diversity is pretty boring. If you play DPS, you either play a full berserker build or you play a full viper build; even griever firebrand is already dead. If you play support, you either play minstrel or commander+berserker chrono or you play druid. And that's it. Only if you have an static with someone capable of creating builds you'll see some other things, like a healing firebrand or a giver chrono. But if you pug? 4 or 5 choices and nothing else. There's no flexibility in DPS builds, and there's some more in support builds but in the end, the goal is the same: have a lot of boon duration and spam boons, or heal the party.

    Ofc the majority of people just copy their builds. Creating real good builds is not something everyone can do, you know. It requires a deep knowledge of classes, skills and traits, and some maths. And yes, I get my builds handed by my raid leader, because (for now) I don't have the knowledge and skill needed to do them myself. I try to, and I try to learn from him. But one thing is to use a build my raid leader creates, while asking him why this trait and why this sigil and whatever and another completely different thing is to just take the build, gear the character and forget about it. It's not realistic to expect everyone to be able to create a build. Like, I've seen a very popular youtuber from my community yell "I've made a fully optimised chrono build for fracs!" and when I looked at it, god, it was everything but optimised. People think they know, but they don't.

    Handkiter slave. / Cat Fletcher, Cho Jinri, Elettra Hart, Anima Schirmer, La Que Ama, B I T T E R N E S S

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭
    Raids are fine the way they are, combining bosses of various difficulties

    @nia.4725 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:
    Great example, of those specialized builds, how many were you running per class? Were you cycling through 10 different equally specialized builds or were you cycling through say a zerging build, a small scale build and a solo build?

    The answer is pretty obvious, I don't get what you're trying to prove with your question. A single person can't have 2987459825 builds for the same class, it's a matter of inventory space and economy, but that doesn't mean that build diversity is low. I don't wvw (I only do solo or duo roaming now and then), but for what I know, since they are a static group, they have defined the builds they will use. One or two per class, I think, since my raid leader created different set-ups (you know, groups have to be organised, you can't just throw whatever build in the group; they have to sinergise). So the result was that on monday, he played minstrel firebrand; on tuesday, he played celestial reaper; on wednesday, marauder holo... etc.

    Which is exactly what I was saying, once you specialize or optimize your build you end up with a smaller amount of builds you use even in wvw. Is it more than in raids or pve? Sure, I never disagreed on this.

    Is it 5 or 10 times more as some want to make it out to be? No, that I disagree with.

    My point from the start was: wvw builds are more diverse, but in the end not by quantum leaps as some have argued.

    The second point I was disagreeing with is how some people were/are comparing highly specialized pve builds to their run of the mill wvw builds. I have argued why I believe this to be an unfair or unjust comparison.

  • Ferelwing.8463Ferelwing.8463 Member ✭✭✭
    We need both easy and hard modes

    @nia.4725 said:

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:
    I am saying that basic math dictates that there is a limit to how many builds exist which are optimized.

    Sure, but you are missing that the "optimization" parameters in WvW are much more fuzzy and fluid than in raids. In raids, you can ignore a lot of factors, because you depend on other people to cover them, and because the environment you optimize for is much more predictable and controlable. In WvW it doesn't work that way.

    In raids, if you have two builds, one of which offers better dps, while other offers better survival, the first is straight better, because the survival factor can be ignored. You learn to avoid the predictable mechanics, and depend on your healer for that. In WvW, you not only must include that factor, but you need to think also about other things (like mobility, disengage capability, etc). You can't include everything you might want, so you need to decide where you will invest more, and on which you'll skimp.
    And here is the problem - all those things are important. There's no math that will tell you what balance of those things is perfect, because their relative worth is not so clear (and even if it was, that balance point changes from moment to moment).

    Did you ever change class/build between raid encounters? Then remember, that in WvW you shift from encounter to encounter, without ability to be sure about what encounter will happen next. And there are no builds that are universal, and are good for all the situations.

    @Cyninja.2954 said:
    Here's an example:
    WvW build 1 runs berserker splashed with vakyrie and does fine.

    WvW build 2 runs Marauder and does fine.

    According to you both of those builds are optimized. I can tell you strait off the bat, they are not yet they both succeeded. That's not optimization.

    Okay. So one runs berserker, one runs berserker with valkyrie, one runs marauder. Which one is better optimized? And for what?

    @Cyninja.2954 said:
    True, and I'm saying that if your builds were optimized you'd too be changing:

    A. less often since 1 build might work better for multiple things

    Only if your "optimization" goal is to have an universal build. Notice, that it's quite possible such a build would perform worse in any and every situation it'd be used.

    B. between less stat combinations since some are stricktly inferior to others thus reducing build diversity
    C. are switching between different playstyles with one of them (zerging) requiring almost no build what so ever

    Oh? So suddenly there's no optimization for zerging?
    (spoiler: a zerg where most players use that assumption dies to a group with players that actually have an idea what they're doing and why)

    @Cyninja.2954 said:
    @Ferelwing.8463 you changed your reply, I'm going to keep the old one in but to your new reply: I disagree that the amount of stat combination finding use is such higher than pve from an optimization stand point.

    That's likely because you're mostly unaware what "optimization" for WvW actually entails.

    @Cyninja.2954 said:
    For most ideas and setups there is a best in slot and the fact that something worked does not mean that the build could not have been made better or more efficient with say more overall stats.

    Indeed. It's just that generally you would be choosing to optimize for a much wider range of goals, and thus will have a much wider range of optimized builds.

    Just a side note: a good raider does change the build depending on the encounter. Usually not the stats, but the skills, the weapons and some traits. I can give you some examples based on my static builds: chrono in sloth - full regular chrono build w focus and focus trait, res trait, using domi inspi. Chrono in matthias - regular chrono with pistol, no res trait. Chrono in sabetha - minstrel chaos chronoheal, with the healing wells trait, because we don't use druids there. Druid in escort going towers - wolf as pet, double staff, breakstun, glyph of tides, strength of the pack, fury trait. Druid no towers - jungle spider and jacaranda with entangle, staff axe/wh, wh trait. The list is very, very long.

    You'd be silly if you didn't change that portion (I change skills a lot in wvw too) but I also change my actual gear as well (and you mentioned you did as well). It depends entirely on what is need (my GM misses his Commanders War too btw). I think the problem here is the "optimization" they are using for an NPC who is binary by design (it's not going to learn from it's opponents, it's encounters are scripted and stay the same). In wvw your opponents learn from you and you learn from them. You need different gear for different goals and I was going to point out gvg and some guild zergs have required gear when you're running (not all just some). PUG's are the only ones that don't and that's generally because they're grabbing the roamers or those who usually zerg with a gvg group. I tend to be a scout/roamer since I'm usually on during off-hours for the server. Sometimes I stay up way too late to participate in prime time.

  • Astralporing.1957Astralporing.1957 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited June 30, 2018
    We need an easy mode, but not a hard mode

    @nia.4725 said:
    Just a side note: a good raider does change the build depending on the encounter. Usually not the stats, but the skills, the weapons and some traits. I can give you some examples based on my static builds: chrono in sloth - full regular chrono build w focus and focus trait, res trait, using domi inspi. Chrono in matthias - regular chrono with pistol, no res trait. Chrono in sabetha - minstrel chaos chronoheal, with the healing wells trait, because we don't use druids there. Druid in escort going towers - wolf as pet, double staff, breakstun, glyph of tides, strength of the pack, fury trait. Druid no towers - jungle spider and jacaranda with entangle, staff axe/wh, wh trait. The list is very, very long.

    Oh, i know, that was my point. What causes people to adjust builds in raids exists also in wvw, but to a much, much higher degree.

    @maddoctor.2738 said:
    I've never been in a squad "with a plan". Probably a server thing. I'm curious though, does that "tag with a plan" get access to better rewards than the PUG tag? IS there any benefit in having it, other than saying you are running something optimized and steam rolling through unorganized opposing PUG squads?

    Yes. The amount of lootbags and wxp. Basically, if you are in a true pug squad, you wipe far more and kill opponents far less. And it's not only due to tactics, but equally importantly due to class composition.

    If you have ever seen a big zerg getting rolled by a much smaller one, it's because of that.

    And yes, if you ask, the difference in rewards can be really big (additionally, if your zerg cannot kill opponents and is constantly wiping, keeping your participation up can be challenging, although usually you can get around this somehow)

    If you ever were on a server that runs both pug zergs and guild-based ones (and playing against servers that have both types as well), you'd start to notice that difference very fast.

    Unless they find a way to reward it only to those using proper builds, are properly invested in the game mode and have some semblance of skill

    You can get carried in raids as well, you know. For you, personally, the only "reward" for using a proper build is not getting kicked. But if you don't get kicked, and everyone else is having those proper builds and have enough skill, you can run anything you want (well, almost, sometimes you still need to watch your toughness). Of course, if the other players had the same idea, you're pretty much kittened. Like in WvW.

    adding Legendary Armor to WVW was mostly to entice PVE players to get to the game mode.

    Same with legendary armor in raids. It's also there to entice players that would otherwise not bother with the mode.

    And to have at least a tiny bit on-topic argument for a change, if there was another way of getting Legendary Armor in PVE, then all those new souls playing WVW wouldn't be there.

    They would. Many were there even before legendary armor upgrade option was introduced, after all. The non-legendary rewards are good enough for that.

    @Cyninja.2954 said:
    Is it 5 or 10 times more as some want to make it out to be? No, that I disagree with.

    I don't think anyone claimed that. The most common comparison was (on average) per class 1-2 builds for raids vs 3-5 builds for wvw. With experienced raiders, on average (with the significant exception of chronos), changing their stats far less often than experiences WvWers.

    So, not only there's more gear options available, but there's greater need to change them during play.

    The whole point of a social game is to play with the people you want to play with, not be forced to play with the people you don't.

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭
    Raids have problems, but we need a better solution

    @Astralporing.1957 said:
    And yes, if you ask, the difference in rewards can be really big (additionally, if your zerg cannot kill opponents and is constantly wiping, keeping your participation up can be challenging, although usually you can get around this somehow)

    I never had difficulty with participation even in situations where my side was wiping a lot. It's not really hard to keep your participation up.

    You can get carried in raids as well, you know.

    It's not the same. I can't make a new character, finish the tutorial and go get carried in Raids. And besides, getting carried in Raids is much harder (and less done) than getting carried in WvW. It's like comparing getting carried in open world PVE with Raids.

    Same with legendary armor in raids. It's also there to entice players that would otherwise not bother with the mode.

    If that was the case they wouldn't add it to WVW and PVP. That was true before they did that, now that they added a method of acquiring Legendary Armor for PVE players that can't bother with Raids, it's different.

    They would. Many were there even before legendary armor upgrade option was introduced, after all. The non-legendary rewards are good enough for that.

    Are they? A quick google search shows the topic of "WvW is dead" being really popular. Despite what players on this Raid/Fractal/Dungeon sub-forum will have us all believe.

  • Ferelwing.8463Ferelwing.8463 Member ✭✭✭
    edited June 30, 2018
    We need both easy and hard modes

    @maddoctor.2738 said:
    I'm gonna answer once more although this thread has moved away of the topic and now it's derailed completely.

    Yeah it did.

    @Ferelwing.8463 said:
    Also, wearing zerkers generally means you're squishy. You will die to siege attacks (arrow carts are particularly strong against anyone running vipers and zerkers because less defensive stats). Of course if you've ranked up against siege it's not as damaging. Also, running zerkers means you will die if someone invuln's your initial burst. You don't have many protections. Now there are two classes that can get away with it because of their innate kit (Reapers/Wars) but the rest of the classes get killed. If you run into a bad player or someone not expecting your burst you might kill them. Mapchat usually follows: Found a zerkers/condi (insert champ) near (location) that tends to mean that you'll be hunted down as a free bag later. At least that's what my team does.

    And you are talking again about this wonderful thing called roaming. The most loved play style of this game that everyone in WvW runs, oh wait they do not, roamers are rather rare. I see "roamers" mostly as campers that kill unsuspecting PVE players that are trying to finish their dailies. The most dishonorable and cowardly behavior in the entire game, remnant of some other games with open world PVP, but you can say that's my experience with them. The toxicity of raiders pales in comparison to these "roamers". The classes that can get away by using damage stats is Mesmer and Thief, because of their innate kit (clones/stealth). Seriously, the Ghost Thief build was full Viper when it was a thing, there is no need for defensive gear if they can't even hit you.

    You must log in around peak hours on your server. During off-hours Roamers are always on, homebbl tends to have about 10-15 Roamers on all the time even on off hours. EBG doesn't really have a lot of Roamers since it's usually got high population regardless of server coverage. Generally roamers are doing things like flipping camps, capping towers(if not answered), sentry's or walking yaks to keeps for upgrades. Roamers are also more often then not the scouts. When a tag is on the roamers will report enemy movements to the tag that's on and join up but not be with the tag (because you get credit for doing things if you're in a group vs if you're roaming even if you're scouting etc). Most Roamers I play with aren't cowardly but I will agree with sneaky. They are waiting for someone to make a mistake and will capitalize on it. They're also there to prevent people from flipping camps, killing yaks, and taking sentry's. They don't run with the blobs/zergs because of things like fps or because running one blob at another blob isn't fun for them, they prefer skirmish fighting. Though not all of them (can't speak for all since some will change gear and join up with a zerg if they like the commander). Many roamers are also running yaks to upgrade towers and keeps. So if you go for a camp and it's near a newly taken keep/tower don't be surprised that there might be a roamer there. They're holding that camp to upgrade something.

    Depends on the server and depends on the squad. When zerging in a PUG it's not as common because people just join up with the nearest tag and go where-ever. When you have an actual plan as to what you're going for then you change your build to meet that plan.

    I've never been in a squad "with a plan". Probably a server thing. I'm curious though, does that "tag with a plan" get access to better rewards than the PUG tag? IS there any benefit in having it, other than saying you are running something optimized and steam rolling through unorganized opposing PUG squads?

    Squads with plans usually are guild squads. If you're not running with a wvw guild then you might not run into ones with a plan. Guild squads also sometimes have specific builds for specific things and they will remind you when you join squad. So if they're running a havoc squad (for example) the job is to draw attention from a different tag by doing things that split the enemy. Usually if there's more than 1 tag on, you have the tag going for a keep and another tag whose job is to map switch causing trouble to give the other tag time to finish taking it. I tend to join havoc squads, but being part of the keep taking one is fun too. When going for the keep it starts with prep. You start by checking the response times (scouts/roamers will head up and hit it to see how fast the enemy responds). When you know the response time you then can determine what the most effective route to taking it will be (there's lots of cata walls etc for most places. Knowing how to break outer is preference but some walls are easier than others because defenders have harder times preventing it. Inner gets more complicated because most commanders won't come to a keep till inner as been breached) etc. The havoc squad starts by drawing the attention of the enemy with the goal that they are not actually committing to taking the keep (unless they are being ignored). The goal is to split the enemy force between multiple maps and make them have to choose which objective they're keeping and which one they're going to lose. Sometimes the enemy can respond to both (multiple tags up themselves) and sometimes they can't. Now fight guilds, they want to fight blob on blob and those guilds have specific rules about their builds as well. They use a bunch of different tactics to get the enemy into the right position so they can steam roll. Fight guilds tend to fight other fight guilds. Havoc guilds tend to enjoy drawing attention away from objectives guilds and we might enjoy a few good fights ourselves.

    Also, the rewards on wvw... Well you can run reward tracks but there's no real reward for winning a match. Literally nothing, you go up a tier or down a tier but there's not really any rewards for going into those tiers. Everyone regardless of tier gets the exact same stuff. Yes, this comes up a lot in wvw and we're kind of annoyed about it but it doesn't stop us from playing the game-mode. So the "incentives" to play are the mode not the "loot". You either like the game mode or not but everyone who plays it gets the same loot and no one gets anything specific or special for "winning" a match. This means that sometimes servers will tank (lose on purpose) to avoid going to tier 1 or some will tank on purpose just to make sure they always have a link server. The tiers have no real meaning and whomever has the best coverage stays in tier 1 (unless they tank as mentioned) and whomever doesn't will try to avoid being tier 1. If you go to tier 1 the "it's boring" thing starts and people will almost never log in because it usually involves 2v1 teams and never having more than paper.... OR going for a tower at off peak hours only to find 20 people were WAITING in that tower (ppt) because they'll be there all day. Not doing anything just staying there.

    PVE still doesn't rely on any kind of defensive stats. It's burst it down and whatever build does more burst wins. (Sure there are exceptions as mentioned previously)

    WvW doesn't rely on ANY stats. I can go to WVW as a level 2 character out of the tutorial and have my fun there. The idea that WvW somehow "needs" the optimized builds to play is a lie. You don't need a good build to get participation and get the rewards of the game mode. Your good build won't get you more rewards, nor unique rewards, which is why adding Legendary Armor to WVW was a mistake. Fortunately the skins are similar to the Ascended version, which is appropriate.

    Unless they find a way to reward it only to those using proper builds, are properly invested in the game mode and have some semblance of skill, adding Legendary Armor to WVW was mostly to entice PVE players to get to the game mode. If they ever manage to pull that off, like adding a proper GvG 15vs15 game mode to the game, where everyone's build matters and strategy, planning and team work is key, then they could add the flashiest Legendary Skin to it. Something like this suggestion: https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/45470/could-there-ever-be-a-chance-of-15vs15-arena Similarly, the tournament reward skin from PVP needs an overhaul because unlike the regular PVP Legendary skin, which is a simple grind, that takes skill/effort to get.

    Umm... You're still thinking binary here. Proper builds? sigh You can do things by the numbers but we build not for binary encounters that are scripted but for actual players who are not and you need a lot of different stats (nothing gives you enough of everything.) in WvW there is no "optimized" build unless you're only zerging and then you better know your positioning super well. But a "proper" build involves what you're facing more often and what your actually doing. So if you see a lot of condi you want a build that has condi cleanse built into it (if you don't have it in your kit then you need runes/sigils to do it for you). If you're constantly being knocked around then your build needs more stability etc etc etc... Proper builds are a matter of what you're encountering more and change based on match-up. Some servers run nothing but scourges and firebrands. You then have to manage a LOT of condi, which means higher condi clear builds. Some servers have a lot of thieves, you need to be prepared for the burst and build to handle it. You get used to the groups you're facing for the week and you change your build accordingly. There are builds that work "better" but that is a fuzzy line in wvw. If you live and can do your job for the most part? It's a good build. There are builds that are better for certain play-styles then others but the meta-battles builds aren't always "correct".

    And to have at least a tiny bit on-topic argument for a change, if there was another way of getting Legendary Armor in PVE, then all those new souls playing WVW wouldn't be there. Now is that a good or a bad thing? That's the big question.

    Lol, new souls playing wvw for the Legendary Armor? I've yet to run into ANY, literally ANY. The majority of the new souls who are on WvW are there for Gift of Battle and as soon as they get it they are gone. I'm one of the rare ones who stayed after getting Gift. They're also the ones who don't know what a tactivator is (and will accidentally pull it), don't realize that the Omega's that we built are for something specific (and will run off with them), don't pay attention to map calls, team chat etc... Since PVE sort of numbs you to it. They are not there to play the game-mode they are there to get their Gift of Battle and go. If the tactivators didn't get pulled most of us wouldn't care (sure the Omega might have been needed for something but most of us can make another etc). What we don't like is when they whine that they joined up with the zerg and were killed nearly instantly because they're running a zerker ele with zero condi-cleanse into an enemy zerg with a ton of scourges and firebrands, or they stood under the arrow cart fire and were surprised they were half-healthed but the other ele's near them weren't. They don't stay on the tag and they're running a pve typical build found on any site without any variance vs something needed in wvw, IE they have zero escapes because you don't need them in pve. Then they wonder why no one is coming to rez them (because if we rez you then we die too, just tp back and most supportive healers will only rez the players who are contributing most to the fight or will focus mainly on keeping the commander/ tanks up so they can protect the backline/midline). If we're roaming, the burst might be a surprise (if the pve player is skilled) but it will surprise us once and then we'll be bag hunting (ok only some do this, most just keep flipping camps, killing sentry's and killing enemy yaks and if we run into the bursty one again we know they're bursty and will use invulns till the burst is done then kill them). If it's on my team I'll recommend that they look at metabattle to get an "idea" of what is needed for wvw because it's faster than giving them specific builds and the likelihood that they're sticking around isn't that high. If they ask for nuances then we can talk nuance especially if it's during a "dead-period" and I'm just walking a yak to upgrade a keep/tower because it usually means they're interested in staying longer.

  • Ferelwing.8463Ferelwing.8463 Member ✭✭✭
    edited June 30, 2018
    We need both easy and hard modes

    @mortrialus.3062 said:

    @Feanor.2358 said:

    @nia.4725 said:

    @Ferelwing.8463 said:

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @mortrialus.3062 said:
    Literally every raider I know plays multi class and if they're heavy, for example will swap between power,condi, and hand kiter from fight to fight in a single night of raiding across three classes.

    I know a number of raiders like that (condi berserker, power dh, handkiting/healing rev, for example. Or weaver, chronotank, condi mirage, condi scourge, for an light armor example). None of them transfer armor sets between characters, even if they have a legendary (and most of them do have it). They all have separate characters for that, all with full gear.
    The only case of actual use of legendary armor i saw was on chronotank that was switching back and forth between commander and minstrel setup.

    Basically, changing stats is one thing. Transferring gear between characters and changing stats on top of it is way too much of a hassle for most people to actually do that. Eeven people with legendary gear usually just get an additional (ascended) set for that.

    I was trying to point out that the stat choices in PVE are binary. Before I set foot into WvW I thought the majority of the stat combinations were obsolete and useless. It surprised me that Anet even offered them because I couldn't figure out who would need them. It was either Condi or Zerkers. After stepping into WvW it was an eye-opener and I find myself experimenting with different stat combinations, the problem being that I'm still working on the Legendary set in WvW so having 3 toons that I play exclusively in WvW with several different ascended gear sets (based on what I will need based on server population and what kind of build is needed at the time..) has made a mess of my inventory and bank space. Legendary Armor will be a space saver!

    WvW and raids are completely different. Raids are instanced content played by a maximum of 10 people, so the stat choices are very limited; you need to compress as much as possible everything the squad needs (DPS, support, etc). A celestial DPS would not deal enough damage, and if DPS started using hybrid gear (gear half supportive half damage), things like dedicated healers like druid would become a waste. But druids not only give heals, you know. Druids are necessary because of the insane amount of utility and damage buffs they give, and that will never be covered by any hybrid or self-sufficient build. Same with chronos. I agree that it's sad that the build diversity in raids is so little, I really really do.

    Aw, come on. Raid meta is twice as diverse as the WvW one. 95% of everything you'll find in a WvW squad is Scourge, Firebrand and Spellbreaker.

    WvW's build diversity is high for the same reason why open world PvE's build diversity is so high; when it's zerg vs zerg no one cares whether you're pulling your weight. It just matters which side has the bigger numbers. With roaming builds that are actually designed to compete against other builds competently, there's a more strict standard of builds just like with SPvP and PvE.

    True, though some "niche" builds work in WvW. (For instance those annoying Bunker Ele's who just won't die, all those invulns and super tanky).

  • Ferelwing.8463Ferelwing.8463 Member ✭✭✭
    edited June 30, 2018
    We need both easy and hard modes

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Astralporing.1957 said:
    And yes, if you ask, the difference in rewards can be really big (additionally, if your zerg cannot kill opponents and is constantly wiping, keeping your participation up can be challenging, although usually you can get around this somehow)

    I never had difficulty with participation even in situations where my side was wiping a lot. It's not really hard to keep your participation up.

    You can get carried in raids as well, you know.

    It's not the same. I can't make a new character, finish the tutorial and go get carried in Raids. And besides, getting carried in Raids is much harder (and less done) than getting carried in WvW. It's like comparing getting carried in open world PVE with Raids.

    Getting carried in wvw is kinda hard. Lower level characters die a lot... I think we ran into someone who was level 15 and they were dead instantly everywhere. Sure they can endure it but no one likes to die that much and we recommended they finish playing open world pve to level up before coming in (because they kept complaining that they were always dead). You're not going to "carry" them they are literally dead all of the time if they are a lower level character. Just because you "can" come into it doesn't mean you're going to actually be able to play long enough to be useful.

    Same with legendary armor in raids. It's also there to entice players that would otherwise not bother with the mode.

    If that was the case they wouldn't add it to WVW and PVP. That was true before they did that, now that they added a method of acquiring Legendary Armor for PVE players that can't bother with Raids, it's different.

    They would. Many were there even before legendary armor upgrade option was introduced, after all. The non-legendary rewards are good enough for that.

    Are they? A quick google search shows the topic of "WvW is dead" being really popular. Despite what players on this Raid/Fractal/Dungeon sub-forum will have us all believe.

    Actually the basic premise of "wvw is dead" comes down the fact there's no difference between tiers outside of size/coverage. There are no rewards for winning a match and there's no real consequence for losing (there's no season or score outside of the weekly tallies that move you up or down a tier and there's no reward for winning outside of going up a tier, same for losing you go down a tier for 1 week). The tier's are kind of meaningless because it isn't "who is the best" it's who has the most coverage. In Tier 1, peak hours mean that all of their maps are full or at least have enough people in that map alone to handle the full force of your zerg, which while exciting wears off when you realize they have an inexhaustible set of reinforcements and you don't . So while you're fighting for this 1 Keep you could be losing everything else you have on another map. Off hours mean that they still outnumber you on most maps. Lower tier servers might have good players but have very bad coverage so they can't get out of their tiers unless they get a server with a coverage period that covers their weak point (ie: They're in NA and the link has EU, SEA, OCX coverage or at least enough people to hold in case the enemy has that kind of coverage) in most cases the link servers are NOT put together based on coverage so you can get a server that has the exact same coverage as you (sleeping when you're sleeping etc) and lose everything again.

    The other part of the spectrum are servers that will lose their link after "excellent performance" then immediately tank down so that they can get a link again (some of that is of course due to coverage and some of it is because they don't want to be tier 1 or 2 without a link). Also, if you tank (lose on purpose) hard enough you can go where-ever etc.. Most servers don't want to be in tier 1 so they will tank to avoid going to tier 1. The server loyalty thing was removed when linking was added, links were created to "fix" the coverage problem (but it doesn't really do that because link servers aren't balanced based on their coverage periods either so you can have 2 servers that are linked who have the exact same coverage period meaning that you lose everything to the server who has more coverage when your team is sleeping).

    Now lets talk wvw rewards? Outside of the reward track (which is universal) there are none. However, it used to be there weren't even reward tracks so at least they added those. The biggest talking point among wvw players is "coverage issues have led to the biggest problems with the tier system in wvw", there is zero incentive to go up a tier if it means going to tier 1 and every reason to throw the match to avoid it. That's not going to change though until the tier's actually mean more than whomever has the best coverage wins and winning a match comes with no added "reward". The reward of going to a tier where you're always outnumbered isn't really much of a reward. If you win the match and get something then you're going to want to win even if you know that you're not going to win the next match due to coverage. If you win a match and you get to go face BG (an example because it's been one tier 1 for a LONG time outside of 2 recent tanks)? That's the reward? Most servers will tank rather than do it. So you can see the issue right? It would be pretty cool if you got skins or something for leveling up or some sort of extra loot for winning a match (matches are a whole weeks worth of effort and if they gave you a reward based on your participation at the end of the week it could help the situation). As it is you get participation rewards during the time you're playing but they're mostly just xp and siege (tickets/tokens but those have a weekly limit). Guilds aren't rewarded for holding onto Keeps/towers/camps etc (they get to put in tactics which are open to the public and once claimed by a guild anyone who has the tactics can put them in). Players aren't rewarded for anything other than participation (which is fine) and there are no rewards for winning a match and there's no reason to win. We still do it but people are more likely to try to lose if they know the next option is tier 1.

    TLDR: The WvW is dead thread boils down to two main issues: Coverage: Servers that have enough people in all times zones to hold territory and keep it always win, There is no counter because you have to sleep sometime and will come back to find everything gone. Rewards: There are no rewards for winning a match, there is no "season" there is nothing. The only rewards in wvw are the universal reward tracks. So there is zero incentive to go to Tier 1 and lots of reasons to avoid it (see coverage). WvW needs a revamp to fix those problems (there's a bunch of other side issues along with it but those are the main ones).

  • Ferelwing.8463Ferelwing.8463 Member ✭✭✭
    edited June 30, 2018
    We need both easy and hard modes

    @mortrialus.3062 said:

    @Feanor.2358 said:

    @nia.4725 said:

    @Ferelwing.8463 said:

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @mortrialus.3062 said:
    Literally every raider I know plays multi class and if they're heavy, for example will swap between power,condi, and hand kiter from fight to fight in a single night of raiding across three classes.

    I know a number of raiders like that (condi berserker, power dh, handkiting/healing rev, for example. Or weaver, chronotank, condi mirage, condi scourge, for an light armor example). None of them transfer armor sets between characters, even if they have a legendary (and most of them do have it). They all have separate characters for that, all with full gear.
    The only case of actual use of legendary armor i saw was on chronotank that was switching back and forth between commander and minstrel setup.

    Basically, changing stats is one thing. Transferring gear between characters and changing stats on top of it is way too much of a hassle for most people to actually do that. Eeven people with legendary gear usually just get an additional (ascended) set for that.

    I was trying to point out that the stat choices in PVE are binary. Before I set foot into WvW I thought the majority of the stat combinations were obsolete and useless. It surprised me that Anet even offered them because I couldn't figure out who would need them. It was either Condi or Zerkers. After stepping into WvW it was an eye-opener and I find myself experimenting with different stat combinations, the problem being that I'm still working on the Legendary set in WvW so having 3 toons that I play exclusively in WvW with several different ascended gear sets (based on what I will need based on server population and what kind of build is needed at the time..) has made a mess of my inventory and bank space. Legendary Armor will be a space saver!

    WvW and raids are completely different. Raids are instanced content played by a maximum of 10 people, so the stat choices are very limited; you need to compress as much as possible everything the squad needs (DPS, support, etc). A celestial DPS would not deal enough damage, and if DPS started using hybrid gear (gear half supportive half damage), things like dedicated healers like druid would become a waste. But druids not only give heals, you know. Druids are necessary because of the insane amount of utility and damage buffs they give, and that will never be covered by any hybrid or self-sufficient build. Same with chronos. I agree that it's sad that the build diversity in raids is so little, I really really do.

    Aw, come on. Raid meta is twice as diverse as the WvW one. 95% of everything you'll find in a WvW squad is Scourge, Firebrand and Spellbreaker.

    WvW's build diversity is high for the same reason why open world PvE's build diversity is so high; when it's zerg vs zerg no one cares whether you're pulling your weight. It just matters which side has the bigger numbers. With roaming builds that are actually designed to compete against other builds competently, there's a more strict standard of builds just like with SPvP and PvE.

    Depends on the zerg I think. Some zergs care more than others. Fight guild zergs tend to be more focused on not just pulling your weight but also on other factors. But it's more a guild preference then a PUG preference.

    Lol, apparently they haven't noticed all the rangers/soulbeasts, engi's, rev's, ele's, mes's, wars, thieves, reapers also running around... Rangers counter scourges (fun fact). There's tons of holo's and base-engi's, as well as scrappers. There's at least 2 sometimes three different versions of rev's that are in zergs as well.. Ele's and Mes's are running around all the time (both with boon sharing and without). In fact ele's/mes's still are the best at killing enemy siege on walls (meteor is important when trying to take out cannons, oil and mortars) and mes's clones can get up there an engage the enemy on the wall. Scourges and Necros paint the wall with condi and the ele/mes takes down the siege. Sure there's a lot of Scourges and some servers have more scourge/firebrands than they know what to do with but not all servers run that binary. Most of them have a good mix which offers different things to the zerg.

    Yes, you will find a TON of forum posts on the condi/firebrand spam problem in WvW but you'll also see a ton on AOE is going way too far, please fix.

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭
    Raids have problems, but we need a better solution

    @Ferelwing.8463 said:
    Squads with plans usually are guild squads. If you're not running with a wvw guild then you might not run into ones with a plan

    I'm not in a WVW guild so that's probably it. Still, there is no setting in WVW for guild-squads only and fighting against unorganized PUGs shouldn't fill you with much accomplishment. If any.

    Lol, new souls playing wvw for the Legendary Armor? I've yet to run into ANY, literally ANY. The majority of the new souls who are on WvW are there for Gift of Battle and as soon as they get it they are gone.

    I think in another thread there was a poll about Legendary Armor versions, can't recall the results, but there were lots that got Legendary Armor in WVW. Also if you read earlier in this thread some said the exact same, that they went and got the WvW version because they couldn't get the Raid version.

    Actually the basic premise of "wvw is dead" comes down the fact there's no difference between tiers outside of size/coverage.

    https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/45470/could-there-ever-be-a-chance-of-15vs15-arena
    https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/44748/siege-revisions/p1
    https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/26547/world-restructuring/p1
    There is a bit of discussion about WvW changes at the moment, with developer input.

  • Ferelwing.8463Ferelwing.8463 Member ✭✭✭
    edited June 30, 2018
    We need both easy and hard modes

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Ferelwing.8463 said:
    Squads with plans usually are guild squads. If you're not running with a wvw guild then you might not run into ones with a plan

    I'm not in a WVW guild so that's probably it. Still, there is no setting in WVW for guild-squads only and fighting against unorganized PUGs shouldn't fill you with much accomplishment. If any.

    Yeah that would do it. Closed squads are usually guild squads, I'm not sure if you've run into those but the closed squads tend to be run by a guild at a given time. When they open the squad it's more often a PUG which happens after the Guild has done whatever it was going to do. Some squads also close down and will only let you in if you're on voice. If you're not on voice you are restricted from joining. Coordination in those groups is higher because they have voice chat commanders rather than the commander trying to type. When you see a smaller zerg smashing a larger zerg it's because of two factors, the first is often composition of the entire zerg and the second is usually voice commands. Not always but quite often. The fighting against unorganized PUG's is only "thrilling" if they severely outnumber you. Otherwise it's not really a thrill (and I'm not generally part of a blob, I'm usually scouting, if I am part of the blob I'm supportive midline keeping tanks/commander alive).

    Lol, new souls playing wvw for the Legendary Armor? I've yet to run into ANY, literally ANY. The majority of the new souls who are on WvW are there for Gift of Battle and as soon as they get it they are gone.

    I think in another thread there was a poll about Legendary Armor versions, can't recall the results, but there were lots that got Legendary Armor in WVW. Also if you read earlier in this thread some said the exact same, that they went and got the WvW version because they couldn't get the Raid version.

    The lower end Legendary Armor in WvW is easier to get but comes with no special skins. I'd be impressed if they came for the higher end Legendary armor but the majority probably did not. It's about 22 weeks to get everything after you've completed the Triumphant Armor tracks (to complete the whole set). I wonder what servers (time zones) went for WvW over PVE? As I said, I've yet to meet anyone who played specifically for the Legendary Armor, more often then not they were coming for Gift of Battle (first, maybe Legendary Armor after?)

    Actually the basic premise of "wvw is dead" comes down the fact there's no difference between tiers outside of size/coverage.

    https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/45470/could-there-ever-be-a-chance-of-15vs15-arena
    https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/44748/siege-revisions/p1
    https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/26547/world-restructuring/p1
    There is a bit of discussion about WvW changes at the moment, with developer input.

    Yeah, I'm active on a few of those threads.. My guild is already working on setting up our Alliances for whenever the rework happens but right now it's still "soon" (tm). The input about the upcoming redesign though hasn't really been as much as we're hoping. Currently Anet is still trying to figure out how the game can figure out who is a scout/roamer and who isn't. There's been a lot of internal discussion plus discussion on that thread about the different styles of play and how the game can stop penalizing one style vs another. I am hoping Alliances can help fix the coverage problem but I'm worried that it won't since the majority of the guilds who are going to be part of the Alliance are from the same server (because they know them). Hopefully the "randoms" will be the equalizer but it really depends entirely on how Anet decides a person's "active" period. Sometimes I'm really active on off-peak hours (because I live in a different time zone and so I make up part of the off-peak coverage) but sometimes I stay up super late (or get up super early) to be on peak hours, both would mess with the coverage equation (because I might do it for a week or two then switch) and they've still not addressed the rewards part of the equation either. As I said before, there's really no reward for winning a match-up and there's no reason to win if you're going to tier 1 and more reasons to just throw the match. (In fact one time we ended up in a 3 way tie because everyone was trying to throw to avoid tier 1).

    As for the siege changes grumble I am not a fan of them changing Arrow Carts without fixing the problem with Balista's. I understand the reason for it but I think they should have waited to nerf the AC's till after they changed the problems with Line of Sight on Bali's.

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭
    Raids are fine the way they are, combining bosses of various difficulties

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:
    Is it 5 or 10 times more as some want to make it out to be? No, that I disagree with.

    I don't think anyone claimed that. The most common comparison was (on average) per class 1-2 builds for raids vs 3-5 builds for wvw. With experienced raiders, on average (with the significant exception of chronos), changing their stats far less often than experiences WvWers.

    So, not only there's more gear options available, but there's greater need to change them during play.

    Yes, well those comparison number I could get behind and understand.

  • FrizzFreston.5290FrizzFreston.5290 Member ✭✭✭✭
    Raids have problems, but we need a better solution

    @Cyninja.2954 said:
    So, where is the problem now?

    The problem is that comparing optimized for WvW/PvP and optimized for Raids is like comparing apples and oranges.

    From a raid mindset, it is just stats and max stats in one direction, its very linear optimization, with max healing max boons and max damage. In WvW theres alot more play and counter play at work.

    Theres simply no raid boss who changes its tactics whereas in WvW there is the possibility to do so, might even be more effective too.

  • Astralporing.1957Astralporing.1957 Member ✭✭✭✭
    We need an easy mode, but not a hard mode

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Astralporing.1957 said:
    And yes, if you ask, the difference in rewards can be really big (additionally, if your zerg cannot kill opponents and is constantly wiping, keeping your participation up can be challenging, although usually you can get around this somehow)

    I never had difficulty with participation even in situations where my side was wiping a lot. It's not really hard to keep your participation up.

    Then either you don't often find yourself in situation when your side has a pug squad, and the enemies are running organized ones, or you get your participation outside zvz battles.

    Same with legendary armor in raids. It's also there to entice players that would otherwise not bother with the mode.

    If that was the case they wouldn't add it to WVW and PVP. That was true before they did that, now that they added a method of acquiring Legendary Armor for PVE players that can't bother with Raids, it's different.

    Maybe, just maybe, they want to entice players to all of those 3 modes? Not that it's working in wvw anyway.

    They would. Many were there even before legendary armor upgrade option was introduced, after all. The non-legendary rewards are good enough for that.

    Are they? A quick google search shows the topic of "WvW is dead" being really popular. Despite what players on this Raid/Fractal/Dungeon sub-forum will have us all believe.

    Because it mostly is. For the veteran WvW players, that is. And for the low tier servers. In higher tier servers however there's quite a lot of casuals running around. Not many of them went in just after legendary armor however. Most were there even before, first for reward tracks, later for skirmish reward chests.

    (most probably because if you don't have any wvw rank already, getting legendary armor is a really, really lengthy process. Better go SPvP for that)

    The whole point of a social game is to play with the people you want to play with, not be forced to play with the people you don't.

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭
    Raids have problems, but we need a better solution

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    I never had difficulty with participation even in situations where my side was wiping a lot. It's not really hard to keep your participation up.

    Then either you don't often find yourself in situation when your side has a pug squad, and the enemies are running organized ones, or you get your participation outside zvz battles.

    When my side is losing badly there is no point in following the tag for zvz battles.

    Because it mostly is. For the veteran WvW players, that is.

    I posted quite a few links above with discussions about changes to WvW, I'm sure there is a healthy discussion about how to improve the game mode, by those that care about it. Notice however, that discussing the skins of the Legendary Armor isn't any kind of priority for the developers, nor the players. The skin of WvW armor is important only in the Raid forums, I'd take a guess by PVE players who couldn't get the Raid armor and went to farm the WvW armor instead and now they complain the set they chose to make isn't looking "Legendary Enough". For actual WVW players? I'd be surprised if it was even on the priority list.

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭
    Raids have problems, but we need a better solution

    @Ferelwing.8463 said:
    If you're not on voice you are restricted from joining.

    Well, you can still -follow- them around even if you are not on their voice chat, it's not like they can kick you from WvW. Unlike instanced content.

    Yeah, I'm active on a few of those threads

    I wonder how high of a priority is the skin of the WvW Legendary Armor for the higher end WvW community/players. Because judging by the complaining on this RAID FORUM about it, it would have you believe that the highest priority of WvW players is how their Legendary Armor looks compared to the Envoy Armor. Although, I seriously doubt, outside PVE players that got their armor in WVW, any actual WVW player cares about it.

  • Astralporing.1957Astralporing.1957 Member ✭✭✭✭
    We need an easy mode, but not a hard mode

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Ferelwing.8463 said:
    If you're not on voice you are restricted from joining.

    Well, you can still -follow- them around even if you are not on their voice chat, it's not like they can kick you from WvW. Unlike instanced content.

    Yeah, I'm active on a few of those threads

    I wonder how high of a priority is the skin of the WvW Legendary Armor for the higher end WvW community/players. Because judging by the complaining on this RAID FORUM about it, it would have you believe that the highest priority of WvW players is how their Legendary Armor looks compared to the Envoy Armor. Although, I seriously doubt, outside PVE players that got their armor in WVW, any actual WVW player cares about it.

    Trust me, they do. It's not a priority, of course, but only because WvW has a lot of much bigger problems.

    The whole point of a social game is to play with the people you want to play with, not be forced to play with the people you don't.

  • Voltekka.2375Voltekka.2375 Member ✭✭✭✭
    We need both easy and hard modes

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Ferelwing.8463 said:
    If you're not on voice you are restricted from joining.

    Well, you can still -follow- them around even if you are not on their voice chat, it's not like they can kick you from WvW. Unlike instanced content.

    Yeah, I'm active on a few of those threads

    I wonder how high of a priority is the skin of the WvW Legendary Armor for the higher end WvW community/players. Because judging by the complaining on this RAID FORUM about it, it would have you believe that the highest priority of WvW players is how their Legendary Armor looks compared to the Envoy Armor. Although, I seriously doubt, outside PVE players that got their armor in WVW, any actual WVW player cares about it.

    WvW skins fashionwars and world restructure concern them both. One does not exclude the other. I play wvw on a T1server daily, for 2-6 hours, and both are topics of discussion frequently. I cant imagine why wvwers wouldnt be interested in getting good looking, legendary skins for the game mode they really like.