Do raids need easy/normal/hard difficulty mode? [merged] - Page 76 — Guild Wars 2 Forums

Do raids need easy/normal/hard difficulty mode? [merged]

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Comments

  • Vinceman.4572Vinceman.4572 Member ✭✭✭✭
    Raids are fine the way they are, combining bosses of various difficulties

    @Tyson.5160 said:
    I too have faced the music, the resources are just not there. So for all the complaining about raids coming out faster, just isn’t going to happen, unless you are happy with a fundamental shift in the current format of raids.

    Agreed and to extend the argumentation: We won't see any easy mode raids neither.

  • Tyson.5160Tyson.5160 Member ✭✭✭✭
    We need both easy and hard modes

    @Vinceman.4572 said:

    @Tyson.5160 said:
    I too have faced the music, the resources are just not there. So for all the complaining about raids coming out faster, just isn’t going to happen, unless you are happy with a fundamental shift in the current format of raids.

    Agreed and to extend the argumentation: We won't see any easy mode raids neither.

    I’ve come to terms with this too, honestly I should just be happy that I get Living World every couple of months.

  • mortrialus.3062mortrialus.3062 Member ✭✭✭✭
    Raids are fine the way they are, combining bosses of various difficulties

    In other news, I finally buckled down and got a Legendary Backpiece after not being able to bring myself to finish the final steps needed for ever a year.

    The Psychomancer: Mesmer Elite Specialization Suggestion

  • Tyson.5160Tyson.5160 Member ✭✭✭✭
    We need both easy and hard modes

    @mortrialus.3062 said:
    In other news, I finally buckled down and got a Legendary Backpiece after not being able to bring myself to finish the final steps needed for ever a year.

    Which one?

  • Kameko.8314Kameko.8314 Member ✭✭
    edited July 21, 2018
    We need both easy and hard modes

    I think they need to do some kind of tier progression with raids to help those coming in learn it better. Because as we get to wing 5..6...7 or however big the number will get we don't know. Now, what do other games do? They have a armor progression and things reset and level cap or armor cap gets higher. And if people wanted they can always go back to the old raid for funzies right? GW does not have that option because level capped, armor capped and they don't have people that can go back and say "Hey i want to go do xera to just see what it is like" if they really wanted to even though they don't get the full fresh experience they can say wow that was a tough boss, i wonder how they did that in its prime.

    So whether it be with new sets of these gaeting crystals ... They should have just said okay we resetting the tier of progression and making it an easy raid. Let the community just start off with an easier base and let those that want to try raiding. Here is your chance. We opening up with easier content. Then from there, let the gaeting crystal era become a little bit harder but not overdo it, and perhaps end with a dhuum like boss. (again this is my opinion). This will give people encouragement to join raids. Good time for people to recruit if they need to. See what people can do in the raid setting etc. Give some guilds bonding time because again like people point out this is GUILD WARS... That has turned to pug wars and guilds are meaningless. Absolutely meaningless.

    Instead... BOOM we have a hard boss kitten block in the beginning no sense of easement for the new POF players that just picked up the game and said a big EFF YOU . Our 5% raid community (or whatever it may be - the point is low) and let the elitism fight out these new hard bosses! yaaah! I know they didn't sit in the office and conjure that plan but that's kinda how it felt. Because SH is not a knock over boss or one with few mechanics that just any random joe can pick up. You have knock back of these creatures, tank swapping, insta kill mechanic, break bar or fall off the edge. To add the elitisms that want a quick run... Man this ain't a good mixture at all. it's pretty rough for a first time raider not knowing what to expect in the raiding scene. Maybe not even touching HoT.

    So this is my word of advice to anet again it is not what they should do but I hope they keep in mind. When they get these new players for these new awesome expansions. Please consider you have lots of noobs that hear raid. omg raid!? i want to try that. And if you put the first wing into a big wall where you are just like wow eff this I am not going to put up with this 'toxic community' . Meanwhile you have the people saying "oh this is easy , oh man why did anet do this?" remember, we are not all veterans here . Take the opportunity to scavenger for new raid members during these easy wings . And I think anet should build up mechanics . It may sound easy but after 4-5 bosses of brain training the raiders... They can handle it. But throwing 5-6 mechanics that not anyone would be able to understand at once... Man that's painful. Go back to basics such as dodging out of circles, or maybe a break bar without a LETHAL consequence but one that is going to hurt you bad. That is another thing anet. Please remember not everything has to be a 90% - 100% life hit. Make healers be able to heal something or do their job to save someone that has troubles with a mechanic rather then insta kill them.

    So overall anet,
    1) make it a tier progression with each expansion. Give time for people to recruit or get used to the game mechanics. 1 wing should build into a stack of mechanics learned. Not first boss expecting 4-5 mechanics the typical person is not used to.
    2) make CMs yet (did not have this above) and keep them relatively hard for those that have a heart for challenges.
    3) Make the rewards better or continuous for CMs so that they can also have groups be found and not just a one time fling.

    Yes, I raid and I have a lot of experience but I lost my static . And the pug life is terrible. Not new to it, but to find a squad in the first new wing set (aka gaeting crystals) is a terrible thing without 'experience'. Which I have but ate the KP so people are like well whatever, we need proof. /sigh.

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭
    Raids are fine the way they are, combining bosses of various difficulties

    @Kameko.8314 said:
    I think they need to do some kind of tier progression with raids to help those coming in learn it better. Because as we get to wing 5..6...7 or however big the number will get we don't know. Now, what do other games do? They have a armor progression and things reset and level cap or armor cap gets higher. And if people wanted they can always go back to the old raid for funzies right? GW does not have that option because level capped, armor capped and they don't have people that can go back and say "Hey i want to go do xera to just see what it is like" if they really wanted to even though they don't get the full fresh experience they can say wow that was a tough boss, i wonder how they did that in its prime.

    Raids are niche enough to not have to worry about if every one gets to experience them. If you want to experience Xera, get into raiding and/or join a guild which can teach you and take you along. Raids are already a lot easier than when they were released due to simple power creep.

    As to having a no reward raid mode for "story's sake". Not worth the development resources.

    @Kameko.8314 said:

    So whether it be with new sets of these gaeting crystals ... They should have just said okay we resetting the tier of progression and making it an easy raid. Let the community just start off with an easier base and let those that want to try raiding. Here is your chance. We opening up with easier content. Then from there, let the gaeting crystal era become a little bit harder but not overdo it, and perhaps end with a dhuum like boss. (again this is my opinion). This will give people encouragement to join raids. Good time for people to recruit if they need to. See what people can do in the raid setting etc. Give some guilds bonding time because again like people point out this is GUILD WARS... That has turned to pug wars and guilds are meaningless. Absolutely meaningless.

    What about the earlier raid rewards? What about Legendary Insights for armor? What does resetting the tier progression mean? Wings are not progressively harder. Wing 4 is even by far the easiest wing out of all 4. Just turns out that wing 5 was on the level of some earlier wings in terms of difficulty since wing 4 was a freebee loot wise.

    Guild Wars has nothing to do with guilds. It's a lore name from events in the far past, check the wiki if you haven't played GW1.

    @Kameko.8314 said:

    Instead... BOOM we have a hard boss kitten block in the beginning no sense of easement for the new POF players that just picked up the game and said a big EFF YOU . Our 5% raid community (or whatever it may be - the point is low) and let the elitism fight out these new hard bosses! yaaah! I know they didn't sit in the office and conjure that plan but that's kinda how it felt. Because SH is not a knock over boss or one with few mechanics that just any random joe can pick up. You have knock back of these creatures, tank swapping, insta kill mechanic, break bar or fall off the edge. To add the elitisms that want a quick run... Man this ain't a good mixture at all. it's pretty rough for a first time raider not knowing what to expect in the raiding scene. Maybe not even touching HoT.

    Yes and right after Soulless Horror you get 2 boss events which are basically free loot. I do agree though that wing 5 as first raid wing for PoF players might be a tough nut to crack. Then again, more incentive to buy HoT and start with Wing 4 or Wing 1.

    Balance does not have to be made for members of the community who chose to not purchase the entire product. Especially when expansions are dirt cheap and there is no subscription fee.

    @Kameko.8314 said:
    Yes, I raid and I have a lot of experience but I lost my static . And the pug life is terrible. Not new to it, but to find a squad in the first new wing set (aka gaeting crystals) is a terrible thing without 'experience'. Which I have but ate the KP so people are like well whatever, we need proof. /sigh.

    And I took a 5 month break and had to reenter into a raid setting where people expect x amount of Dhuum kill proof with me having none. Yet I still managed to get the kill multiple times by now.

    The natural raid entry progression is similar almost across the board:

    • find a guild
    • practice with guild
    • get experience and kill proofs
    • PUG if need be

    If you start from the last step and are unwilling to join a guild for challenging group content, that's on you. Yes, purely PUG clearing the new raid wing is quite a few steps up than running with a guild. Working as intended.

  • zealex.9410zealex.9410 Member ✭✭✭✭
    Raids are fine the way they are, combining bosses of various difficulties

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Kameko.8314 said:
    I think they need to do some kind of tier progression with raids to help those coming in learn it better. Because as we get to wing 5..6...7 or however big the number will get we don't know. Now, what do other games do? They have a armor progression and things reset and level cap or armor cap gets higher. And if people wanted they can always go back to the old raid for funzies right? GW does not have that option because level capped, armor capped and they don't have people that can go back and say "Hey i want to go do xera to just see what it is like" if they really wanted to even though they don't get the full fresh experience they can say wow that was a tough boss, i wonder how they did that in its prime.

    Raids are niche enough to not have to worry about if every one gets to experience them. If you want to experience Xera, get into raiding and/or join a guild which can teach you and take you along. Raids are already a lot easier than when they were released due to simple power creep.

    As to having a no reward raid mode for "story's sake". Not worth the development resources.

    @Kameko.8314 said:

    So whether it be with new sets of these gaeting crystals ... They should have just said okay we resetting the tier of progression and making it an easy raid. Let the community just start off with an easier base and let those that want to try raiding. Here is your chance. We opening up with easier content. Then from there, let the gaeting crystal era become a little bit harder but not overdo it, and perhaps end with a dhuum like boss. (again this is my opinion). This will give people encouragement to join raids. Good time for people to recruit if they need to. See what people can do in the raid setting etc. Give some guilds bonding time because again like people point out this is GUILD WARS... That has turned to pug wars and guilds are meaningless. Absolutely meaningless.

    What about the earlier raid rewards? What about Legendary Insights for armor? What does resetting the tier progression mean? Wings are not progressively harder. Wing 4 is even by far the easiest wing out of all 4. Just turns out that wing 5 was on the level of some earlier wings in terms of difficulty since wing 4 was a freebee loot wise.

    Guild Wars has nothing to do with guilds. It's a lore name from events in the far past, check the wiki if you haven't played GW1.

    @Kameko.8314 said:

    Instead... BOOM we have a hard boss kitten block in the beginning no sense of easement for the new POF players that just picked up the game and said a big EFF YOU . Our 5% raid community (or whatever it may be - the point is low) and let the elitism fight out these new hard bosses! yaaah! I know they didn't sit in the office and conjure that plan but that's kinda how it felt. Because SH is not a knock over boss or one with few mechanics that just any random joe can pick up. You have knock back of these creatures, tank swapping, insta kill mechanic, break bar or fall off the edge. To add the elitisms that want a quick run... Man this ain't a good mixture at all. it's pretty rough for a first time raider not knowing what to expect in the raiding scene. Maybe not even touching HoT.

    Yes and right after Soulless Horror you get 2 boss events which are basically free loot. I do agree though that wing 5 as first raid wing for PoF players might be a tough nut to crack. Then again, more incentive to buy HoT and start with Wing 4 or Wing 1.

    Balance does not have to be made for members of the community who chose to not purchase the entire product. Especially when expansions are dirt cheap and there is no subscription fee.

    @Kameko.8314 said:
    Yes, I raid and I have a lot of experience but I lost my static . And the pug life is terrible. Not new to it, but to find a squad in the first new wing set (aka gaeting crystals) is a terrible thing without 'experience'. Which I have but ate the KP so people are like well whatever, we need proof. /sigh.

    And I took a 5 month break and had to reenter into a raid setting where people expect x amount of Dhuum kill proof with me having none. Yet I still managed to get the kill multiple times by now.

    The natural raid entry progression is similar almost across the board:

    • find a guild
    • practice with guild
    • get experience and kill proofs
    • PUG if need be

    If you start from the last step and are unwilling to join a guild for challenging group content, that's on you. Yes, purely PUG clearing the new raid wing is quite a few steps up than running with a guild. Working as intended.

    Tbh a mode that only gives exotics blues and yellows thats alot easier and is repeatable can very well have value to justify making.

    Its just the format in which they would release it and how would that impact the normal mode that makes it unlikely.

    But theres definitely a market for "just the experience" raids.

  • Kameko.8314Kameko.8314 Member ✭✭
    edited July 21, 2018
    We need both easy and hard modes

    What does a guild usually ask you straight up? Do you ahve > @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Kameko.8314 said:
    I think they need to do some kind of tier progression with raids to help those coming in learn it better. Because as we get to wing 5..6...7 or however big the number will get we don't know. Now, what do other games do? They have a armor progression and things reset and level cap or armor cap gets higher. And if people wanted they can always go back to the old raid for funzies right? GW does not have that option because level capped, armor capped and they don't have people that can go back and say "Hey i want to go do xera to just see what it is like" if they really wanted to even though they don't get the full fresh experience they can say wow that was a tough boss, i wonder how they did that in its prime.

    Raids are niche enough to not have to worry about if every one gets to experience them. If you want to experience Xera, get into raiding and/or join a guild which can teach you and take you along. Raids are already a lot easier than when they were released due to simple power creep.

    As to having a no reward raid mode for "story's sake". Not worth the development resources.

    @Kameko.8314 said:

    So whether it be with new sets of these gaeting crystals ... They should have just said okay we resetting the tier of progression and making it an easy raid. Let the community just start off with an easier base and let those that want to try raiding. Here is your chance. We opening up with easier content. Then from there, let the gaeting crystal era become a little bit harder but not overdo it, and perhaps end with a dhuum like boss. (again this is my opinion). This will give people encouragement to join raids. Good time for people to recruit if they need to. See what people can do in the raid setting etc. Give some guilds bonding time because again like people point out this is GUILD WARS... That has turned to pug wars and guilds are meaningless. Absolutely meaningless.

    What about the earlier raid rewards? What about Legendary Insights for armor? What does resetting the tier progression mean? Wings are not progressively harder. Wing 4 is even by far the easiest wing out of all 4. Just turns out that wing 5 was on the level of some earlier wings in terms of difficulty since wing 4 was a freebee loot wise.

    Guild Wars has nothing to do with guilds. It's a lore name from events in the far past, check the wiki if you haven't played GW1.

    @Kameko.8314 said:

    Instead... BOOM we have a hard boss kitten block in the beginning no sense of easement for the new POF players that just picked up the game and said a big EFF YOU . Our 5% raid community (or whatever it may be - the point is low) and let the elitism fight out these new hard bosses! yaaah! I know they didn't sit in the office and conjure that plan but that's kinda how it felt. Because SH is not a knock over boss or one with few mechanics that just any random joe can pick up. You have knock back of these creatures, tank swapping, insta kill mechanic, break bar or fall off the edge. To add the elitisms that want a quick run... Man this ain't a good mixture at all. it's pretty rough for a first time raider not knowing what to expect in the raiding scene. Maybe not even touching HoT.

    Yes and right after Soulless Horror you get 2 boss events which are basically free loot. I do agree though that wing 5 as first raid wing for PoF players might be a tough nut to crack. Then again, more incentive to buy HoT and start with Wing 4 or Wing 1.

    Balance does not have to be made for members of the community who chose to not purchase the entire product. Especially when expansions are dirt cheap and there is no subscription fee.

    @Kameko.8314 said:
    Yes, I raid and I have a lot of experience but I lost my static . And the pug life is terrible. Not new to it, but to find a squad in the first new wing set (aka gaeting crystals) is a terrible thing without 'experience'. Which I have but ate the KP so people are like well whatever, we need proof. /sigh.

    And I took a 5 month break and had to reenter into a raid setting where people expect x amount of Dhuum kill proof with me having none. Yet I still managed to get the kill multiple times by now.

    The natural raid entry progression is similar almost across the board:

    • find a guild
    • practice with guild
    • get experience and kill proofs
    • PUG if need be

    If you start from the last step and are unwilling to join a guild for challenging group content, that's on you. Yes, purely PUG clearing the new raid wing is quite a few steps up than running with a guild. Working as intended.

    There is probably one difference between that situation and mine however. It is something that is not very controllable either. The time zone. Unfortunately I live in a dead one so does make pugging that much harder and perhaps if it was different timing sure it would be easier and maybe that is just the variable that makes it not so well in my case or some of the other people I know. We are making a group for our time zone and going slow again through everything but it is definitely a process.

    So that is probably the biggest variable is the time of day in which you can play. And the small group that I have. Anyway, the idea that I think they should have some kind of 'prep' or beginners/easy mode would be good. It would allow people to experience something that they maybe could not otherwise do. In a way like fractals you have 4 tiers, and I'm not saying raids should be the same but they have some mechanics negated from the 4th tier or even challenge mote. And it may introduce more people onto the scene and let them enjoy part of the game they always wanted to do.

    I get the hardcore raiders want hard content (CM) , i get people want a challenge (probably normal is a fair challenge to most) , and then people that want to test the waters or build understanding (an easy mode). And once you do CM mode boom the groups are gone. (again my time zone anyway) I haven't seen one ambition for CMs after the first month or so of the raid being out. Because there is nothing to help people go back other then smashing their heads more. Maybe a weekly reset in the rewards for CM would work? Something valuable but nothing too much, just to say hey go out and help others that need it.
    Note - To add I think the easy mode should still be hard enough to grant some kind of currency and not just be a 'story addition'. It should be less mechanics then the 'current trend'. Perhaps half the amount given to the normal. Also they can only be obtained 1 time so you can't just go in and keep repeating it over and over. So maybe like a max of 20 crystals (for example). And then the other 30 would have to come from normal, etc. And maybe only a bag or so of loot. No chances at ascended or a very LOW chance. Something like that. And this game is not 'loot kitten' so basically you can not say "well that ain't fair to those that do it on normal". I would say it is pretty fair half the weekly crystals if that's all they do. They need double the time to get the skins they want. The goal is to have fun so everyone having fun, side goal is loot and well you get the loot faster and quicker then the ones that just want the 'casual' play. If that makes sense.

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭
    Raids are fine the way they are, combining bosses of various difficulties

    @Kameko.8314 said:
    Note - To add I think the easy mode should still be hard enough to grant some kind of currency and not just be a 'story addition'. It should be less mechanics then the 'current trend'. Perhaps half the amount given to the normal. Also they can only be obtained 1 time so you can't just go in and keep repeating it over and over. So maybe like a max of 20 crystals (for example). And then the other 30 would have to come from normal, etc. And maybe only a bag or so of loot. No chances at ascended or a very LOW chance. Something like that. And this game is not 'loot kitten' so basically you can not say "well that ain't fair to those that do it on normal". I would say it is pretty fair half the weekly crystals if that's all they do. They need double the time to get the skins they want. The goal is to have fun so everyone having fun, side goal is loot and well you get the loot faster and quicker then the ones that just want the 'casual' play. If that makes sense.

    Magenetite shards and Gaeting Crystals are meaningless. The only thing of actual value in raids is Legendary Insights for the legendary armor. If you start handing those out in easy mode raids, you might as well remove normal raids. If you don't, no one will do easy mode raids. At least not enough people to warrant the work to implement them.

  • Kameko.8314Kameko.8314 Member ✭✭
    We need both easy and hard modes

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Kameko.8314 said:
    Note - To add I think the easy mode should still be hard enough to grant some kind of currency and not just be a 'story addition'. It should be less mechanics then the 'current trend'. Perhaps half the amount given to the normal. Also they can only be obtained 1 time so you can't just go in and keep repeating it over and over. So maybe like a max of 20 crystals (for example). And then the other 30 would have to come from normal, etc. And maybe only a bag or so of loot. No chances at ascended or a very LOW chance. Something like that. And this game is not 'loot kitten' so basically you can not say "well that ain't fair to those that do it on normal". I would say it is pretty fair half the weekly crystals if that's all they do. They need double the time to get the skins they want. The goal is to have fun so everyone having fun, side goal is loot and well you get the loot faster and quicker then the ones that just want the 'casual' play. If that makes sense.

    Magenetite shards and Gaeting Crystals are meaningless. The only thing of actual value in raids is Legendary Insights for the legendary armor. If you start handing those out in easy mode raids, you might as well remove normal raids. If you don't, no one will do easy mode raids. At least not enough people to warrant the work to implement them.

    I think that may be a misconception . Do not underestimate the power of fashion wars. Not sure, but personally I have all the LI I need/want. So I am more concerned with the currencies and the skins. Maybe others as well for 'fashion wars' . (Totally agree with you that they should not hand out LI -- This I can agree with) They can gain the currency for skins. They can say they got to raid with some friends. Then one day they might go and say hey let's try normal now. It has a few more mechanics but we get the 'main idea' behind this boss. Then the group will go and tackle the encounter for their LI and once they do that perhaps they will get eased off of 'easy mode'. But it would have done its purpose which is to get more people interested or foot in the door for raids. Also easy modes may not be a long term thing for we know this game doesn't always just stick with one thing, they are flexible. So it could be for a while. i.e. story legendaries for gen 2. They could say well, I guess the raid population is booming. Ask if they should keep easy mode and get a feel of how many are actually participating in it. If it is not many they can scap, if the community loves it they should probably keep in place.

  • Felipe.1807Felipe.1807 Member ✭✭✭
    Raids have problems, but we need a better solution

    I guess the devs should just forget about Raids and Focus on Fractals instead...you have your easy low level fractals for the casual players and you also have the same fractals with higher levels for the hardcore players, everyone can play the content, is a win for all players....the thing is that Raids are jst not fun for the majority of players, i am all about hard content, but i just dont have the time needed to find a training guild, rebuild my main or in the worst case relearn a whole new class cause my main might be obsolete, learn the boss "dance" and all its phases, etc...thats just way to much time that many people cant devote to the game, while Fractals/Dungeons you just get on with 4 friends or randoms and clear without much trouble if the players are atleast decent have some fun and laughs and thats it...if Raids had a solo mode, at this point I would probably had done it with all the challange modes and everything, put find not 4 but other 9 people is really not gonna happen.

  • mortrialus.3062mortrialus.3062 Member ✭✭✭✭
    Raids are fine the way they are, combining bosses of various difficulties

    @Felipe.1807 said:
    I guess the devs should just forget about Raids and Focus on Fractals instead...you have your easy low level fractals for the casual players and you also have the same fractals with higher levels for the hardcore players, everyone can play the content, is a win for all players....the thing is that Raids are jst not fun for the majority of players, i am all about hard content, but i just dont have the time needed to find a training guild, rebuild my main or in the worst case relearn a whole new class cause my main might be obsolete, learn the boss "dance" and all its phases, etc...thats just way to much time that many people cant devote to the game, while Fractals/Dungeons you just get on with 4 friends or randoms and clear without much trouble if the players are atleast decent have some fun and laughs and thats it...if Raids had a solo mode, at this point I would probably had done it with all the challange modes and everything, put find not 4 but other 9 people is really not gonna happen.

    I haven't been able to bring myself to enter a fractal for the better part of a year because of how inherently uninteresting they are right down to their core basic design even with challenge modes 99 and 100.

    Hard pass.

    The Psychomancer: Mesmer Elite Specialization Suggestion

  • Aridon.8362Aridon.8362 Member ✭✭✭
    edited July 23, 2018
    Raids are fine the way they are, combining bosses of various difficulties

    I should tell you that the reason I quit wow was because of the multiple difficulties. You essentially will be grinding a fake version of the boss and the real version will be gated by time and energy. It doesn't feel good and it adds onto why people hate modern wow.

    As to people on this thread saying nobody wants inexperienced, there's a reason you're saying that, and it's because you're not trying hard enough to find a guild that's doing it. I just got 3 offers to join progression guilds and I've only been back for two weeks. You have to connect well and get rid of that social anxiety that keeps you from trying harder to get into one. And to keep it short the only boss I've ever killed ever is vale guardian before joining any of those guilds.

    ** Bottom line is if you want something badly you need to work hard for it. ** If you want to see what happens during the raid and how each story progresses, work in order to find out what it is. Legendary Armor isn't given, it's earned.

  • Tyson.5160Tyson.5160 Member ✭✭✭✭
    We need both easy and hard modes

    @Aridon.8362 said:
    I should tell you that the reason I quit wow was because of the multiple difficulties. You essentially will be grinding a fake version of the boss and the real version will be gated by time and energy. It doesn't feel good and it adds onto why people hate modern wow.

    As to people on this thread saying nobody wants inexperienced, there's a reason you're saying that, and it's because you're not trying hard enough to find a guild that's doing it. I just got 3 offers to join progression guilds and I've only been back for two weeks. You have to connect well and get rid of that social anxiety that keeps you from trying harder to get into one. And to keep it short the only boss I've ever killed ever is vale guardian before joining any of those guilds.

    ** Bottom line is if you want something badly you need to work hard for it. ** If you want to see what happens during the raid and how each story progresses, work in order to find out what it is. Legendary Armor isn't given, it's earned.

    Agree with you except the social anxiety part, you don’t just get over an anxiety and it’s a bit disrespectful to state otherwise. What people need is more acceptance and compassion.

  • STIHL.2489STIHL.2489 Member ✭✭✭✭

    kitten this work for a game thing..

    There are two kinds of Gamers, Salty, and Extra Salty.
    Ego is the Anesthesia that dullens the pain of Stupidity.

  • Raids are fine the way they are, combining bosses of various difficulties

    @Blaeys.3102 said:

    @ButterPeanut.9746 said:

    @Blaeys.3102 said:

    @ButterPeanut.9746 said:

    @IndigoSundown.5419 said:

    @Nick.6972 said:

    The only valid argument to be made here is that designing an easy mode would take resources away from other game modes.

    Current state of affairs:

    • Instanced content (raids/fractals) players unhappy with release cadence
    • Open world players unhappy with release cadence
    • WvW players unhappy with mode neglect
    • sPvP players unhappy with mode neglect

    Yeah, you're right. The only valid argument to be made here is that designing an easy mode would take resources away from one or more aspects of ongoing development, and there are plenty of players in all of those areas already unhappy with how infrequent they see anything new. That's a pretty large downside.

    Correct. IMO the only valid opinion for not doing something like this is that it would require resources from other areas (i.e. Living World) to be moved to raids. It's been 2.5 years of discussion about the validity of easy mode content.

    We're at the people where the folks who want easy mode the request needs to change from "I want easy mode because of XYZ reasons" to "I want easy mode because of XYZ reasons and I want it at the expense of living world content". If that isn't something folks are willing to sacrifice, then there will be no change.

    I've said it before. Raids in their current form are unsustainable long term in the game. Without compromises that hardcore raiders are dead set against, they cannot justify the resources needed for a release schedule short enough to keep the attention of hardcore raiders the way that raid focused MMOs can - meaning the raiding community in the game will get smaller and smaller over time (which will, in turn, mean fewer resources and longer wait times).

    I agree with pretty much everything you said as well, but i think this statement is putting the "problem" on the hardcore community. IMO, the opposition that you have received in your easy mode suggestions by the raiding community over the past 2.5 years is WAY less than the outbreak that would be fewer living world release for more raid resources.

    IMO it isn't a "hard core players complaining won't let easy mode happen" problem...its a "there's no way the community, the $$$, and ANET's vision align with taking resources away from living world world and put them on raids" problem.

    The problem isn't on any specific group. The problem is simple mathematics.

    Basically, the only way to change anything about the current model for raids (which, again, I think is unsustainable long term) would be for them to hire new resources. They can't take them from the already shorthanded LS team. To bring in new resources for raids, they would have to up the appeal of raids in some way. Shortening the release time from 7 to even as low as 5 months wouldn't accomplish that (hardcore raiders churn through the content in, at most, 2 months). Tweaking old raids to add lower difficulties would bring in more players by lowering the difficulty barrier to entry. With that in mind, should they ever add new resources, it makes sense - from a fiduciary perspective - that the first step would be to use them to expand the target playerbase for raids. Once that is done, they could look at shortening the development cycle.

    Im not saying that will happen. As we both point out, it unlikely that they will add new resources either way - and, if they do, the logical place to do so is on LS, not raids.

    Five months for a good raid would be ok. Obviously 3 months would be better. Currently ya looking at 9-10 months.

    Easy mode solves nothing, Escort and w4 except deimos are easy and I dont see armies of new players do those. Fractals have a 4 tiered system with options for CMS and those also receive little. Hell we dont even get CMS with fractals anymore. Of course I am against tiered raids.

    LS has a ridiculous amount of focus from Anet and it is still not enough? Meanwhile pvp/wvw/instanced content all suffer. Tell me which is the truely unsustainable form of content than ?

  • Etheri.5406Etheri.5406 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Tyson.5160 said:

    @Aridon.8362 said:
    I should tell you that the reason I quit wow was because of the multiple difficulties. You essentially will be grinding a fake version of the boss and the real version will be gated by time and energy. It doesn't feel good and it adds onto why people hate modern wow.

    As to people on this thread saying nobody wants inexperienced, there's a reason you're saying that, and it's because you're not trying hard enough to find a guild that's doing it. I just got 3 offers to join progression guilds and I've only been back for two weeks. You have to connect well and get rid of that social anxiety that keeps you from trying harder to get into one. And to keep it short the only boss I've ever killed ever is vale guardian before joining any of those guilds.

    ** Bottom line is if you want something badly you need to work hard for it. ** If you want to see what happens during the raid and how each story progresses, work in order to find out what it is. Legendary Armor isn't given, it's earned.

    Agree with you except the social anxiety part, you don’t just get over an anxiety and it’s a bit disrespectful to state otherwise. What people need is more acceptance and compassion.

    No they don't. I get that you don't just "get over" anxiety, that's fine.

    You should also get that if I give players the choice between joining discord and not joining discord, most of them will not. I happily do a training raid, but if I do it i'd rather have all players show commitment to the group and frequently I want them on voice so I can call out what they need to do. It makes the whole thing a LOT faster and smoother.

    Acceptance and compassion goes both ways. Not every group needs to cater to your needs, and if groups don't cater to your needs that's perfectly fine. If there are no groups that cater to your preferences then perhaps you are in fact too demanding.

    Acceptance and compassion includes understanding that sometimes... some groups or players or playstyles or ... aren't for you.

    I'm certain that almost all the players that refuse to join discords / ts's aren't having social anxiety. Most of them simply prefer not to, and that's fine. But you don't have to play with them.

  • Tengu Talons.7921Tengu Talons.7921 Member ✭✭
    edited August 24, 2018
    We need both easy and hard modes

    If an easy mode is what will get more players and resources invested into them , by all means hand out free kills. They could also stop nerfing fun tricks and traits that carried pugs too just cause high end guilds could bypass mechanics( yea right).

  • We need both easy and hard modes

    I did not read the entire thread....so.....ignore me now I guess

    But I have done both 'easy', and 'hard' and "yeah, there is no easy mode' raids in other games.

    I've spent so many hours waiting for a tank, or a healer...that at launch, the idea that we just needed 5 people to compete a dungeon, regardless of class, was really appealing.

    Today though seems completely different!!! If you want to do T4, or challenge motes, or (god forbid!) raids.......you MUST be the specific class / build needed (for that specific boss, never mind the instance!), and must play that class/build to the 90th percentile or above!

    Don't get me wrong, I am happy to practice my preferred class and role, outside of raids, to achieve the best performance I can. And I will log/record and review every encounter, so I can improve both my individual and team performance.

    But I feel there is such a 'cliff' to climb in GW2 raids, and the potential for toxicity if one fails, I'm afraid to even try.

  • Feanor.2358Feanor.2358 Member ✭✭✭✭
    Raids are fine the way they are, combining bosses of various difficulties

    @qwerty.8943 said:
    I did not read the entire thread....so.....ignore me now I guess

    But I have done both 'easy', and 'hard' and "yeah, there is no easy mode' raids in other games.

    I've spent so many hours waiting for a tank, or a healer...that at launch, the idea that we just needed 5 people to compete a dungeon, regardless of class, was really appealing.

    Today though seems completely different!!! If you want to do T4, or challenge motes, or (god forbid!) raids.......you MUST be the specific class / build needed (for that specific boss, never mind the instance!), and must play that class/build to the 90th percentile or above!

    Don't get me wrong, I am happy to practice my preferred class and role, outside of raids, to achieve the best performance I can. And I will log/record and review every encounter, so I can improve both my individual and team performance.

    But I feel there is such a 'cliff' to climb in GW2 raids, and the potential for toxicity if one fails, I'm afraid to even try.

    That's different. High-end groups will always be restrictive, because they want efficiency. This isn't correlated to the content itself, or its difficulty. People requested specific builds back when dungeon running was a thing. It's not that you can't complete fractals or raids in just about any composition. It's that the people who play them actively don't want to. And it is their choice. Lower difficulty would do nothing to dissuade them, so nothing would change.

  • phs.6089phs.6089 Member ✭✭✭✭
    We need both easy and hard modes

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @CptAurellian.9537 said:
    Second, and that's possibly more important, it feels like large parts of the GW2 community are atrociously bad.

    The big question then becomes, how to "train" the players to be better at the game

    You give them an easy mod for end-game content, just like any other MMO did, when they wipe in EASY mod, most of them start to look around and learn.
    Because it's a kitten meme to get wiped in easy

    "There is always a lighthouse, there's always a man, there's always a city."

  • Linken.6345Linken.6345 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @phs.6089 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @CptAurellian.9537 said:
    Second, and that's possibly more important, it feels like large parts of the GW2 community are atrociously bad.

    The big question then becomes, how to "train" the players to be better at the game

    You give them an easy mod for end-game content, just like any other MMO did, when they wipe in EASY mod, most of them start to look around and learn.
    Because it's a kitten meme to get wiped in easy

    I fail to see how they cant look around and learn in normal mode tho.

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭
    Raids have problems, but we need a better solution

    @phs.6089 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @CptAurellian.9537 said:
    Second, and that's possibly more important, it feels like large parts of the GW2 community are atrociously bad.

    The big question then becomes, how to "train" the players to be better at the game

    You give them an easy mod for end-game content, just like any other MMO did, when they wipe in EASY mod, most of them start to look around and learn.
    Because it's a kitten meme to get wiped in easy

    Because that works very well in fractals. Oh wait that has been already discussed like 50 pages ago.

  • phs.6089phs.6089 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited August 25, 2018
    We need both easy and hard modes

    @Linken.6345 said:

    I fail to see how they cant look around and learn in normal mode tho.

    Wipe in singe mod leads to 'ummmmh, hard content, kitten with that, Ill go do something else'
    Clearly there is problem with raids, I payed a game that had same issue, they solved it, simply adding 5 free resurrections to a person that has less that 5 full clear to particular boss. But event that is hard to do then add easy mod cus you will need need to ad counter to every single player for every boss into database.

    I fail to see why so many pepole are agaist it.

    1. As a person that knows a 'bit' of programming, I don't see any issue to add dozen 'if' functions to existing content.
      (If someone thinks they coded ever single fractal from scratches, you are wrong, it's one base code, with several 'if's)

      2.People don't ask to make current raids with current reward easy, they ask for easy mod, with less reward, most of them don't even care of achievements and legendary armor.

    So why? My guess is there would be people that would learn raids, making that 'specific' feel of raiders to gone. This one reasonable explanation to me atm

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    Because that works very well in fractals. Oh wait that has been already discussed like 50 pages ago.

    The problem with fractals they are Overdone. 4 tiers with 2 layers in each. When there would have been more then enough to have 2 tiers+ CMs.
    But they were added times there was no end game content and this proves my words. Adding dozen 'if' functions to exiting content, to make it seems like a lot of new things, is easy.
    They codded core fractal bosses and fights add instabilities(main work), test it, polish a single version of each, then couple of interns over the breakfast add those 'if' functions following task and numbers given by project manager. Gave it numbers and boom 100 new instances for your guys to clear.

    "There is always a lighthouse, there's always a man, there's always a city."

  • Vinceman.4572Vinceman.4572 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited August 25, 2018
    Raids are fine the way they are, combining bosses of various difficulties

    @phs.6089 said:
    I fail to see why so many pepole are agaist it.

    It's because almost all raid bosses are very easy once you know how to properly move your char through a map - here: an instance - and using more button than pressing the number one repeatedly. There is just no need for a training mode if players would make a proper use of the abilities of their classes. Unless that's not happening and you are still failing as a group we can come back to the discussion later on.
    See, when I did Escort (the first event in wing 3 and maybe the easiest encounter) with a pug and the requirement "know the mechanics" we wiped three times due to people being feared into mines or pushed from tower falling to death. They even wrote it in the squad chat: "I got feared" and stuff like this. None of them was using common sense to swap out skills for a simple stun break. For example the warrior refuses to put banners away although they are kinda useless in a very non-optimized group in an event like Escort).

  • phs.6089phs.6089 Member ✭✭✭✭
    We need both easy and hard modes

    @Vinceman.4572 said:

    It's because almost all raid bosses are very easy once you know how to properly move your char through a map - here: an instance - and using more button than pressing the number one repeatedly. There is just no need for a training mode if players would make a proper use of the abilities of their classes. Unless that's not happening and you are still failing as a group we can come back to the discussion later on.

    Not all, second of all just like you said 'once you know how to properly move your char through a map' , can people go see that map without being frustrated over wipes? Just to learn how to move their chars on this maps?

    "There is always a lighthouse, there's always a man, there's always a city."

  • Vinceman.4572Vinceman.4572 Member ✭✭✭✭
    Raids are fine the way they are, combining bosses of various difficulties

    @phs.6089 said:
    Not all, second of all just like you said 'once you know how to properly move your char through a map' , can people go see that map without being frustrated over wipes? Just to learn how to move their chars on this maps?

    Almost all!
    I have raided with beginners who got recently into the game and had difficulties to farm exotic gear in a fast time frame to join us raiding. If such a player is able to gear a class and learn encounters within 4 days (2 days raiding per week) I expect veteran players in ascended gear (or even in exotic, it doesn't matter) to be able to not struggle very hard on simple encounters. Dhuum, Xera, Deimos and maybe 1-2 more depending on personal fondness are a different thing but if you cannot execute mechanics on Escort, Mursaat Overseer, Trio, Samarog within a month while trying 1-2 days per week for 1-2 hours you should really not play instanced content at all. I mean by now even some dungeons are harder for those players than raids where you mostly have 1-3 people playing the "heavy mechanics" while the rest just has to avoid perfectly marked red circles and smash some damage buttons. A veteran player knowing to get through dungeons and/or fractals is able to kill at least 50% of the existent raid bosses without tryharding very much.

  • I'd say from my experience an easy mode rather hurts than helps anyone (especially the dedicated players that go for the hardest modes). Why is that so? Well, the thing is I've played various games that had the exact same approach to hard content with different stages that had different mechanics and scaling etc. - and boy did you have a hard time when trying to go for the upper third of the difficulty scale.
    That was almost exclusively caused by people that cleared a lower level once or maybe twice, thought "eh that aint as bad now innit" to themselves and went straight for the hardest difficulty. Often times they'd just plain ignore new or re-spec'd mechanics and try to excuse themselves "because in normal mode it was like thisnthat". Even when we explained it to them what feels like a billion times they were unable and/or unwilling to adapt and caused wipe over wipe over wipe. (Gotta add that the specific game I am talking about here has no actual way of kicking a player and looking for a new one during a dungeon or raid so you are basically stuck with those lazy arses once you're inside - GW2 at least has that function)

    Oh did I hurt your precious feelings? My deepest apologies.

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭
    Raids have problems, but we need a better solution

    @phs.6089 said:
    The problem with fractals they are Overdone.

    Now we have a problem with Fractals... but since you missed it, no amount of "training" in low tier fractals helps in any way or form in getting in teams for higher tiers of fractals. This is the case with 2, 3 or 100 tiers of fractals. Case in point, no matter how many times you run T4, your chances of joining a CM group will always stay at roughly the same. Close to zero, unless it's a training run. "But I've run T4 Nightmare 100000 times, why can't I join CM Nightmare?". Which will be the exact same with Raids.

    Second, and even more important, in those other MMORPGs with multiple tiers, do they have a gear treadmill as well? Is running the easy mode tiers a good way of getting the next best gear for your characters? Now to my knowledge all of them are like this, which means the lower tiers aren't being run by players who enjoy running that kind of content but by players running it for their next gear tier. This happens in order to move on to the next tier until you reach your limit. Then a couple Raids later, the easy mode provides the same gear tier as the hard mode of previous Raids. Only reason raid tiers "work" in other games is because they are integral part of gear progression. I wonder if it's time to add such gear progression to Guild Wars 2?

    Wipe in singe mod leads to 'ummmmh, hard content, kitten with that, Ill go do something else'

    You do know that Raid bosses in Guild Wars 2 start stupidly easy right? Not all of them I admit, but lots of them start so easy that are glorified world bosses with very little mechanics at first, that escalate as phases progress. A team that wipes at Vale Guardian before the first split phase is so bad at this game that they probably need to go play more in Verdant Brink and participate in some meta events to get better at the game. Gorseval, Sabetha, Matthias, Xera, Samarog, Deimos also start relatively easy to the point that an average exotic geared group can push them to their next phases. It's the binary thinking of wipe/succeed that ruins Raiding, it's more like a journey to beat each phase of a boss separately rather than an end result.

  • yann.1946yann.1946 Member ✭✭✭
    Raids have problems, but we need a better solution

    @phs.6089 said:

    @Linken.6345 said:

    I fail to see how they cant look around and learn in normal mode tho.

    Wipe in singe mod leads to 'ummmmh, hard content, kitten with that, Ill go do something else'
    Clearly there is problem with raids, I payed a game that had same issue, they solved it, simply adding 5 free resurrections to a person that has less that 5 full clear to particular boss. But event that is hard to do then add easy mod cus you will need need to ad counter to every single player for every boss into database.

    I fail to see why so many pepole are agaist it.

    1. As a person that knows a 'bit' of programming, I don't see any issue to add dozen 'if' functions to existing content.
      (If someone thinks they coded ever single fractal from scratches, you are wrong, it's one base code, with several 'if's)

      2.People don't ask to make current raids with current reward easy, they ask for easy mod, with less reward, most of them don't even care of achievements and legendary armor.

    So why? My guess is there would be people that would learn raids, making that 'specific' feel of raiders to gone. This one reasonable explanation to me atm

    1 theirs more to an easy mode then coding. Discussing how it should be implemented, ui considerations. Their is no way to now how long an implementation would take.

    2 you might have missed it but their where/are people asking for the same rewards( because exclusivity is bad.)

    You apperently consider the people who are against easy mode to do so out of malice. But some points against it where made for the health of the game mode and the game.

  • Astralporing.1957Astralporing.1957 Member ✭✭✭✭
    We need an easy mode, but not a hard mode

    @Feanor.2358 said:

    @qwerty.8943 said:
    I did not read the entire thread....so.....ignore me now I guess

    But I have done both 'easy', and 'hard' and "yeah, there is no easy mode' raids in other games.

    I've spent so many hours waiting for a tank, or a healer...that at launch, the idea that we just needed 5 people to compete a dungeon, regardless of class, was really appealing.

    Today though seems completely different!!! If you want to do T4, or challenge motes, or (god forbid!) raids.......you MUST be the specific class / build needed (for that specific boss, never mind the instance!), and must play that class/build to the 90th percentile or above!

    Don't get me wrong, I am happy to practice my preferred class and role, outside of raids, to achieve the best performance I can. And I will log/record and review every encounter, so I can improve both my individual and team performance.

    But I feel there is such a 'cliff' to climb in GW2 raids, and the potential for toxicity if one fails, I'm afraid to even try.

    That's different. High-end groups will always be restrictive, because they want efficiency. This isn't correlated to the content itself, or its difficulty. People requested specific builds back when dungeon running was a thing. It's not that you can't complete fractals or raids in just about any composition. It's that the people who play them actively don't want to. And it is their choice. Lower difficulty would do nothing to dissuade them, so nothing would change.

    It would do nothing to dissuade them, but it would allow people that do not care about efficiency clear the content as well. The difference is that when originally efficient builds and group composition helped you to clear the instance faster, now it helps you to clear it. Originally, that efficient approach didn't really impact the success rate, merely the speed. Now it impacts both. And the impact is very significant.

    For every efficient group doing dungeons there were 2-3 casual ones, that finished all the same. Now casual groups are almost non-existant (and if they do, they are not filled with casuals, because only very experienced veterans can now pull that approach off). That is the impact of difficulty level.

    The whole point of a social game is to play with the people you want to play with, not be forced to play with the people you don't.

  • Feanor.2358Feanor.2358 Member ✭✭✭✭
    Raids are fine the way they are, combining bosses of various difficulties

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @Feanor.2358 said:

    @qwerty.8943 said:
    I did not read the entire thread....so.....ignore me now I guess

    But I have done both 'easy', and 'hard' and "yeah, there is no easy mode' raids in other games.

    I've spent so many hours waiting for a tank, or a healer...that at launch, the idea that we just needed 5 people to compete a dungeon, regardless of class, was really appealing.

    Today though seems completely different!!! If you want to do T4, or challenge motes, or (god forbid!) raids.......you MUST be the specific class / build needed (for that specific boss, never mind the instance!), and must play that class/build to the 90th percentile or above!

    Don't get me wrong, I am happy to practice my preferred class and role, outside of raids, to achieve the best performance I can. And I will log/record and review every encounter, so I can improve both my individual and team performance.

    But I feel there is such a 'cliff' to climb in GW2 raids, and the potential for toxicity if one fails, I'm afraid to even try.

    That's different. High-end groups will always be restrictive, because they want efficiency. This isn't correlated to the content itself, or its difficulty. People requested specific builds back when dungeon running was a thing. It's not that you can't complete fractals or raids in just about any composition. It's that the people who play them actively don't want to. And it is their choice. Lower difficulty would do nothing to dissuade them, so nothing would change.

    It would do nothing to dissuade them, but it would allow people that do not care about efficiency clear the content as well. The difference is that when originally efficient builds and group composition helped you to clear the instance faster, now it helps you to clear it. Originally, that efficient approach didn't really impact the success rate, merely the speed. Now it impacts both. And the impact is very significant.

    For every efficient group doing dungeons there were 2-3 casual ones, that finished all the same. Now casual groups are almost non-existant (and if they do, they are not filled with casuals, because only very experienced veterans can now pull that approach off). That is the impact of difficulty level.

    The defining attribute of the content in question is its difficulty. Why should the ability to clear it in easy mode be of any consideration? It's like asking to be able to do guild missions solo. That's not their point.

    Furthermore, the meta ALWAYS affects the success rate in addition to speed, except when there's absolutely no challenge at all. No instanced content in this game was ever that trivial. So there is no major difference here. The most you can argue about is that in raids the effects of meta are more pronounced. Which is only logical, as it is a direct result of their defining feature I just mentioned.

  • Astralporing.1957Astralporing.1957 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited August 25, 2018
    We need an easy mode, but not a hard mode

    @Feanor.2358 said:

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @Feanor.2358 said:

    @qwerty.8943 said:
    I did not read the entire thread....so.....ignore me now I guess

    But I have done both 'easy', and 'hard' and "yeah, there is no easy mode' raids in other games.

    I've spent so many hours waiting for a tank, or a healer...that at launch, the idea that we just needed 5 people to compete a dungeon, regardless of class, was really appealing.

    Today though seems completely different!!! If you want to do T4, or challenge motes, or (god forbid!) raids.......you MUST be the specific class / build needed (for that specific boss, never mind the instance!), and must play that class/build to the 90th percentile or above!

    Don't get me wrong, I am happy to practice my preferred class and role, outside of raids, to achieve the best performance I can. And I will log/record and review every encounter, so I can improve both my individual and team performance.

    But I feel there is such a 'cliff' to climb in GW2 raids, and the potential for toxicity if one fails, I'm afraid to even try.

    That's different. High-end groups will always be restrictive, because they want efficiency. This isn't correlated to the content itself, or its difficulty. People requested specific builds back when dungeon running was a thing. It's not that you can't complete fractals or raids in just about any composition. It's that the people who play them actively don't want to. And it is their choice. Lower difficulty would do nothing to dissuade them, so nothing would change.

    It would do nothing to dissuade them, but it would allow people that do not care about efficiency clear the content as well. The difference is that when originally efficient builds and group composition helped you to clear the instance faster, now it helps you to clear it. Originally, that efficient approach didn't really impact the success rate, merely the speed. Now it impacts both. And the impact is very significant.

    For every efficient group doing dungeons there were 2-3 casual ones, that finished all the same. Now casual groups are almost non-existant (and if they do, they are not filled with casuals, because only very experienced veterans can now pull that approach off). That is the impact of difficulty level.

    The defining attribute of the content in question is its difficulty. Why should the ability to clear it in easy mode be of any consideration? It's like asking to be able to do guild missions solo. That's not their point.

    I wasn't talking about the "defining attribute" of the content. I was responding to your claim that the reason for restrictive behaviour in raids is efficiency and not difficulty. Because it is the difficulty that is the main reason behind it. People don't ask for meta because they want to killl the boss 1-2 minutes faster. They ask for it because they don't want to keep wiping on it. And whether it's a defining feature of raids or not is completely irrelevant to this.

    The whole point of a social game is to play with the people you want to play with, not be forced to play with the people you don't.

  • Feanor.2358Feanor.2358 Member ✭✭✭✭
    Raids are fine the way they are, combining bosses of various difficulties

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @Feanor.2358 said:

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @Feanor.2358 said:

    @qwerty.8943 said:
    I did not read the entire thread....so.....ignore me now I guess

    But I have done both 'easy', and 'hard' and "yeah, there is no easy mode' raids in other games.

    I've spent so many hours waiting for a tank, or a healer...that at launch, the idea that we just needed 5 people to compete a dungeon, regardless of class, was really appealing.

    Today though seems completely different!!! If you want to do T4, or challenge motes, or (god forbid!) raids.......you MUST be the specific class / build needed (for that specific boss, never mind the instance!), and must play that class/build to the 90th percentile or above!

    Don't get me wrong, I am happy to practice my preferred class and role, outside of raids, to achieve the best performance I can. And I will log/record and review every encounter, so I can improve both my individual and team performance.

    But I feel there is such a 'cliff' to climb in GW2 raids, and the potential for toxicity if one fails, I'm afraid to even try.

    That's different. High-end groups will always be restrictive, because they want efficiency. This isn't correlated to the content itself, or its difficulty. People requested specific builds back when dungeon running was a thing. It's not that you can't complete fractals or raids in just about any composition. It's that the people who play them actively don't want to. And it is their choice. Lower difficulty would do nothing to dissuade them, so nothing would change.

    It would do nothing to dissuade them, but it would allow people that do not care about efficiency clear the content as well. The difference is that when originally efficient builds and group composition helped you to clear the instance faster, now it helps you to clear it. Originally, that efficient approach didn't really impact the success rate, merely the speed. Now it impacts both. And the impact is very significant.

    For every efficient group doing dungeons there were 2-3 casual ones, that finished all the same. Now casual groups are almost non-existant (and if they do, they are not filled with casuals, because only very experienced veterans can now pull that approach off). That is the impact of difficulty level.

    The defining attribute of the content in question is its difficulty. Why should the ability to clear it in easy mode be of any consideration? It's like asking to be able to do guild missions solo. That's not their point.

    I wasn't talking about the "defining attribute" of the content. I was responding to your claim that the reason for restrictive behaviour in raids is efficiency and not difficulty. Because it is the difficulty that is the main reason behind it. People don't ask for meta because they want to killl the boss 1-2 minutes faster. They ask for it because they don't want to keep wiping on it. And whether it's a defining feature of raids or not is completely irrelevant to this.

    Exactly the same happens in lower difficulty, namely fractals. I always prefer a meta party with decent cm kp requirement. Precisely to spare myself the clown fiesta. The culprit isn't the difficulty, it's the huge differences in player skill.

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭
    Raids have problems, but we need a better solution

    @Astralporing.1957 said:
    It would do nothing to dissuade them, but it would allow people that do not care about efficiency clear the content as well. The difference is that when originally efficient builds and group composition helped you to clear the instance faster, now it helps you to clear it. Originally, that efficient approach didn't really impact the success rate, merely the speed. Now it impacts both. And the impact is very significant.

    Well first, you can clear raid encounters without having a fully efficient group composition. Second in both expansion content the lowest "efficiency" builds are becoming more and more useless, which is a good thing. We've seen countless threads about the difficulty of expansion content and in almost all cases, without fail, it's their terrible choice of build. I think making the game require a good build in order to clear it, and not just to clear it fast is a very good thing, to root out the most terrible lower-end builds from the game. There comes a point when you say a build above a certain "level" will be able to continue staying relevant.

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭
    Raids are fine the way they are, combining bosses of various difficulties

    @phs.6089 said:

    @Linken.6345 said:

    I fail to see how they cant look around and learn in normal mode tho.

    Wipe in singe mod leads to 'ummmmh, hard content, kitten with that, Ill go do something else'
    Clearly there is problem with raids, I payed a game that had same issue, they solved it, simply adding 5 free resurrections to a person that has less that 5 full clear to particular boss. But event that is hard to do then add easy mod cus you will need need to ad counter to every single player for every boss into database.

    I fail to see why so many pepole are agaist it.

    1. As a person that knows a 'bit' of programming, I don't see any issue to add dozen 'if' functions to existing content.
      (If someone thinks they coded ever single fractal from scratches, you are wrong, it's one base code, with several 'if's)

    Yes, and because some small "if" arguments here and there are so easy, the game gets broken with every single patch and needs fixes.

    Please take your preschool programming knowledge and dump it. We are talking thousands upon thousands of lines of code which interact in often unforeseeable ways. If programming was always so "easy" as people think it is, even on basic things, the amount of mistakes and fixing required from professionals would be a lot lower.

    You saying that a couple of lines of code and "if" arguments are sufficient is like telling a structural engineer his work can be adapted with "a bit of math here and there". Suffice to say, thats's nonsense in projects of this scale in both construction and programming.

    @phs.6089 said:
    2.People don't ask to make current raids with current reward easy, they ask for easy mod, with less reward, most of them don't even care of achievements and legendary armor.

    So why? My guess is there would be people that would learn raids, making that 'specific' feel of raiders to gone. This one reasonable explanation to me atm

    and my guess is: the people who actually want to raid have an easy enough time in this game IF they follow some easy steps which are integral to raiding already (join a guild, do some basic research, be prepared to invest some time into practice).

    Everyone else looking at raids simply wants only the loot and is not actually interested in the game mode.

    Neither of both groups require or deserve an "easy" mode nor justify the resources required (considering raids are already seldom and on a 1 per year cycle). Better to implement an alternative way to get pve legendary armor without negatively impacting the game mode.

  • phs.6089phs.6089 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited August 26, 2018
    We need both easy and hard modes

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @phs.6089 said:

    Yes, and because some small "if" arguments here and there are so easy, the game gets broken with every single patch and needs fixes.

    sorry, I stopped reading after this statement, loled so hard

    What kind of opinion do you have of Anet developers if they can bug on reduction of bosses Hp and damage?
    You really think they can screw up on simple 'if' functions?

    "There is always a lighthouse, there's always a man, there's always a city."

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭
    Raids are fine the way they are, combining bosses of various difficulties

    @phs.6089 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @phs.6089 said:

    Yes, and because some small "if" arguments here and there are so easy, the game gets broken with every single patch and needs fixes.

    sorry, I stopped reading after this statement, loled so hard

    Sadly I don't get to laugh when raid bosses need to get deactivated because they suddenly don't work due to changes totally unrelated to them were made. As happened not all that long ago.

  • yann.1946yann.1946 Member ✭✭✭
    Raids have problems, but we need a better solution

    @phs.6089 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @phs.6089 said:

    Yes, and because some small "if" arguments here and there are so easy, the game gets broken with every single patch and needs fixes.

    sorry, I stopped reading after this statement, loled so hard

    Why would you laugh about the statement. It's true that bugs get introduced by seamingly different parts of the code.

  • phs.6089phs.6089 Member ✭✭✭✭
    We need both easy and hard modes

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    Sadly I don't get to laugh when raid bosses need to get deactivated because they suddenly don't work due to changes totally unrelated to them were made. As happened not all that long ago.

    That does nothing with with your statements. They were fixing exiting bug and as it happens overlooked something else

    "There is always a lighthouse, there's always a man, there's always a city."

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭
    Raids are fine the way they are, combining bosses of various difficulties

    @phs.6089 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    Sadly I don't get to laugh when raid bosses need to get deactivated because they suddenly don't work due to changes totally unrelated to them were made. As happened not all that long ago.

    That does nothing with with your statements. They were fixing exiting bug and as it happens overlooked something else

    I'm sorry, I won't go into an entire explanation of how wrong and disrespectful you are towards programmers by stating that some "if" statements are sufficient and easy.

    Do this: find a friend of yours who actually works as a mid level programmer on even a small project, talk to them about this, then come back here.

    Your limited hobby programming knowledge is unsufficient to argue about complexity in a millions of lines code project.

  • phs.6089phs.6089 Member ✭✭✭✭
    We need both easy and hard modes

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @phs.6089 said:

    I'm sorry, I won't go into an entire explanation of how wrong and disrespectful you are towards programmers by stating that some "if" statements are sufficient and easy.

    Do this: find a friend of yours who actually works as a mid level programmer on even a small project, talk to them about this, then come back here.

    I just called to one of my mid level programming friends and asked how long it will take him to reduce damage and Hp of fully programmed and polished bosses in a videogame, he told me he can do it over the weekend, in notepad, on his knees. I called him lazy but what do I know?

    "There is always a lighthouse, there's always a man, there's always a city."

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭
    Raids are fine the way they are, combining bosses of various difficulties

    @phs.6089 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @phs.6089 said:

    I'm sorry, I won't go into an entire explanation of how wrong and disrespectful you are towards programmers by stating that some "if" statements are sufficient and easy.

    Do this: find a friend of yours who actually works as a mid level programmer on even a small project, talk to them about this, then come back here.

    I just called to one of my mid level programming friends and asked how long it will take him to reduce damage and Hp of fully programmed and polished bosses in a videogame, he told me he can do it over the weekend, in notepad, on his knees. I called him lazy but what do I know?

    Send his details to Arenanet, they need to hire this guy right away!

    You do realize every person with 1% actual programming experience is having a field day with your nonsense right?

  • phs.6089phs.6089 Member ✭✭✭✭
    We need both easy and hard modes

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @phs.6089 said:

    Send his details to Arenanet, they need to hire this guy right away!

    You do realize every person with 1% actual programming experience is having a field day with your nonsense right?

    1% of programming experience is the key word here I guess.

    "There is always a lighthouse, there's always a man, there's always a city."

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭
    Raids have problems, but we need a better solution

    @phs.6089 said:
    I just called to one of my mid level programming friends and asked how long it will take him to reduce damage and Hp of fully programmed and polished bosses in a videogame, he told me he can do it over the weekend, in notepad, on his knees. I called him lazy but what do I know?

    Actually a programmer can do it in less than a minute, probably less than a few seconds even, it's only one variable value after all. A programmer could go and give Deimos 1 health point, or make so Lava Font deal 1 million damage with each tick, that's the easy part. The time to do these changes depends on how long it takes for the programming back end to open, then how long it takes to deploy such a change to the live servers. The hard (and time consuming) part is on the designer instead :)
    After all, a programmer isn't responsible for making green circles on Vale Guardian stay for a fixed duration, nor how much damage they deal. That's what the designer does. I highly doubt this friend of yours has the statistical data from the Guild Wars 2 playerbase to know the "correct" values for any of the boss statistics, so he is either not a good programmer, a show-off, or you simply didn't word the question appropriately. I'll go with the last one.

    Further, a programmer that uses "if" statements to adjust mob values (like health/damage) is a sad programmer that needs another career path, they are inefficient and in a world were variables exist, they are also useless.

  • Feanor.2358Feanor.2358 Member ✭✭✭✭
    Raids are fine the way they are, combining bosses of various difficulties

    @phs.6089 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @phs.6089 said:

    Send his details to Arenanet, they need to hire this guy right away!

    You do realize every person with 1% actual programming experience is having a field day with your nonsense right?

    1% of programming experience is the key word here I guess.

    The key phrase is "complete lack of experience in game development" actually. Creating a new balance for a new difficulty setting isn't even a job a programmer is going to do. It's one a designer would. It would be a process involving a lot more than just tweaking numbers and consisting of multiple "change-test-decide new changes" iterations.

  • TexZero.7910TexZero.7910 Member ✭✭✭✭
    Raids are fine the way they are, combining bosses of various difficulties

    @phs.6089 said:
    Wipe in singe mod leads to 'ummmmh, hard content, kitten with that, Ill go do something else'
    Clearly there is problem with raids, I payed a game that had same issue, they solved it, simply adding 5 free resurrections to a person that has less that 5 full clear to particular boss. But event that is hard to do then add easy mod cus you will need need to ad counter to every single player for every boss into database.

    I fail to see why so many pepole are agaist it.

    So how many times have you been to bloodstone fen or ember bay to kill the very obvious easy mode raid bosses that are there ?
    Do you do it daily / weekly / monthly / or did you give it the college 1 and done experience ?

    Because they've given you an easy mode as is. Sorry you dont like the champ bag experience enough to learn and move into raids from it though.

  • Voltekka.2375Voltekka.2375 Member ✭✭✭✭
    We need both easy and hard modes

    @TexZero.7910 said:

    @phs.6089 said:
    Wipe in singe mod leads to 'ummmmh, hard content, kitten with that, Ill go do something else'
    Clearly there is problem with raids, I payed a game that had same issue, they solved it, simply adding 5 free resurrections to a person that has less that 5 full clear to particular boss. But event that is hard to do then add easy mod cus you will need need to ad counter to every single player for every boss into database.

    I fail to see why so many pepole are agaist it.

    So how many times have you been to bloodstone fen or ember bay to kill the very obvious easy mode raid bosses that are there ?
    Do you do it daily / weekly / monthly / or did you give it the college 1 and done experience ?

    Because they've given you an easy mode as is. Sorry you dont like the champ bag experience enough to learn and move into raids from it though.

    Well, that would depend on the rewards, some might say. If the bloodfen boss gave LI, people would have 15 instances of that map.
    I dont agree with easy mode btw.

  • phs.6089phs.6089 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited August 28, 2018
    We need both easy and hard modes

    @TexZero.7910 said:

    So how many times have you been to bloodstone fen or ember bay to kill the very obvious easy mode raid bosses that are there ?
    Do you do it daily / weekly / monthly / or did you give it the college 1 and done experience ?

    Because they've given you an easy mode as is. Sorry you dont like the champ bag experience enough to learn and move into raids from it though.

    What is does with raids wahtsoever? And I'm sorry I'm one of not many that want easy raids to drop exotics, maybe a chance of ascended weapons so i can carry new guildes trough, help them learn and get them initial gear, trough raiding, not open world braided zerging in sw and istan.

    I don't need LI if i needed a leg armor I have enough league tickets to make a set from pvp but I only made back item for cosmetics. I didn't even finish making Aurora, juts did the collection parts for precursor as game has no questing, I treat collections as once. So yeah I been to BF more then once.

    "There is always a lighthouse, there's always a man, there's always a city."

  • Feanor.2358Feanor.2358 Member ✭✭✭✭
    Raids are fine the way they are, combining bosses of various difficulties

    @phs.6089 said:

    @TexZero.7910 said:

    So how many times have you been to bloodstone fen or ember bay to kill the very obvious easy mode raid bosses that are there ?
    Do you do it daily / weekly / monthly / or did you give it the college 1 and done experience ?

    Because they've given you an easy mode as is. Sorry you dont like the champ bag experience enough to learn and move into raids from it though.

    What is does with raids wahtsoever? And I'm sorry I'm one of not many that want easy raids to drop exotics, maybe a chance of ascended weapons so i can carry new guildes trough, help them learn and get them initial gear, trough raiding, not open world braided zerging in sw and istan.

    I don't need LI if i needed a leg armor I have enough league tickets to make a set from pvp but I only made back item for cosmetics. I didn't even finish making Aurora, juts did the collection parts for precursor as game has no questing, I treat collections as once. So yeah I been to BF more then once.

    You're in luck, then. The game has instanced content where you can get exotic pieces as a reward for very long time. It's easier, more accessible. It's called "dungeons".

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