Do raids need easy/normal/hard difficulty mode? [merged] - Page 77 — Guild Wars 2 Forums

Do raids need easy/normal/hard difficulty mode? [merged]

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  • phs.6089phs.6089 Member ✭✭✭✭
    We need both easy and hard modes

    @Feanor.2358 said:

    You're in luck, then. The game has instanced content where you can get exotic pieces as a reward for very long time. It's easier, more accessible. It's called "dungeons".

    Dead old content? much wow

    "There is always a lighthouse, there's always a man, there's always a city."

  • Sephylon.4938Sephylon.4938 Member ✭✭✭✭
    Raids have problems, but we need a better solution

    @phs.6089 said:

    @Feanor.2358 said:

    You're in luck, then. The game has instanced content where you can get exotic pieces as a reward for very long time. It's easier, more accessible. It's called "dungeons".

    Dead old content? much wow

    You said you have friends you wanted to help gear. Exotic zerk gear is exotic zerk gear no matter where you got it. Also those skins that come with it actually looks decent.

    I am a giant tomato filled with love. I have come to sell you a house made out of pancakes.

  • Astralporing.1957Astralporing.1957 Member ✭✭✭✭
    We need an easy mode, but not a hard mode

    @TexZero.7910 said:

    @phs.6089 said:

    @TexZero.7910 said:

    So how many times have you been to bloodstone fen or ember bay to kill the very obvious easy mode raid bosses that are there ?
    Do you do it daily / weekly / monthly / or did you give it the college 1 and done experience ?

    Because they've given you an easy mode as is. Sorry you dont like the champ bag experience enough to learn and move into raids from it though.

    What is does with raids wahtsoever? And I'm sorry I'm one of not many that want easy raids to drop exotics, maybe a chance of ascended weapons so i can carry new guildes trough, help them learn and get them initial gear, trough raiding, not open world braided zerging in sw and istan.

    You wanted easy mode bosses and they already exist. Now we all know why you want them, thanks for playing.

    Care to guess how popular raids would be if they had the same reward level as those events?
    Yeah, i thought so.

    The whole point of a social game is to play with the people you want to play with, not be forced to play with the people you don't.

  • thrag.9740thrag.9740 Member ✭✭✭
    Raids are fine the way they are, combining bosses of various difficulties

    @phs.6089 said:

    @Feanor.2358 said:

    You're in luck, then. The game has instanced content where you can get exotic pieces as a reward for very long time. It's easier, more accessible. It's called "dungeons".

    Dead old content? much wow

    I'm confused, arn't you trying to get your newbie friends geared up? The content isn't old for them....

  • TexZero.7910TexZero.7910 Member ✭✭✭✭
    Raids are fine the way they are, combining bosses of various difficulties

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @TexZero.7910 said:

    @phs.6089 said:

    @TexZero.7910 said:

    So how many times have you been to bloodstone fen or ember bay to kill the very obvious easy mode raid bosses that are there ?
    Do you do it daily / weekly / monthly / or did you give it the college 1 and done experience ?

    Because they've given you an easy mode as is. Sorry you dont like the champ bag experience enough to learn and move into raids from it though.

    What is does with raids wahtsoever? And I'm sorry I'm one of not many that want easy raids to drop exotics, maybe a chance of ascended weapons so i can carry new guildes trough, help them learn and get them initial gear, trough raiding, not open world braided zerging in sw and istan.

    You wanted easy mode bosses and they already exist. Now we all know why you want them, thanks for playing.

    Care to guess how popular raids would be if they had the same reward level as those events?
    Yeah, i thought so.

    Care to see how significantly different the stakes are in an "easy mode" aka Open World Raid boss with extremely toned down skills, HP and Damage are to the current Normal mode ?

    There's a very real reason for the rewards to be structed as they are. Clearly it's not that people want an easy mode for the sake of learning or even seeing the fights. The overwhelming majority just want the same loot for less effort and it's disgusting.

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited August 29, 2018
    Raids are fine the way they are, combining bosses of various difficulties

    @TexZero.7910 said:

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @TexZero.7910 said:

    @phs.6089 said:

    @TexZero.7910 said:

    So how many times have you been to bloodstone fen or ember bay to kill the very obvious easy mode raid bosses that are there ?
    Do you do it daily / weekly / monthly / or did you give it the college 1 and done experience ?

    Because they've given you an easy mode as is. Sorry you dont like the champ bag experience enough to learn and move into raids from it though.

    What is does with raids wahtsoever? And I'm sorry I'm one of not many that want easy raids to drop exotics, maybe a chance of ascended weapons so i can carry new guildes trough, help them learn and get them initial gear, trough raiding, not open world braided zerging in sw and istan.

    You wanted easy mode bosses and they already exist. Now we all know why you want them, thanks for playing.

    Care to guess how popular raids would be if they had the same reward level as those events?
    Yeah, i thought so.

    Care to see how significantly different the stakes are in an "easy mode" aka Open World Raid boss with extremely toned down skills, HP and Damage are to the current Normal mode ?

    There's a very real reason for the rewards to be structed as they are. Clearly it's not that people want an easy mode for the sake of learning or even seeing the fights. The overwhelming majority just want the same loot for less effort and it's disgusting.

    Got to go with Tex on this.

    Though this point was established already way back in the beginning of this thread.

    The amount of people who see raids as:"to difficult but I want the loot for a fraction of the effort" is astonishing. Those voice have no room in a serious debatte about if an easy mode would be beneficial to the game.

    I stand by what I've been saying so far:

    • the actual gameplay difficulty of raids is fine and quite low (to succeed, not master)

    • organisational aspect like grouping and LFG need to be improved and tools for Such improved/implemented

    • the amount of work for multiple difficulties is to high with a not guaranteed positive result it might have. Especially considering a big part of the Pro easy raids crowd just wants the loot and couldn't care less about the game mode

    • it would be better to add an alternative pve legendary armor instead of easy mode raids simply to get rid of all the "I want the loot" voices

  • STIHL.2489STIHL.2489 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @phs.6089 said:
    I just called to one of my mid level programming friends and asked how long it will take him to reduce damage and Hp of fully programmed and polished bosses in a videogame, he told me he can do it over the weekend, in notepad, on his knees. I called him lazy but what do I know?

    Actually a programmer can do it in less than a minute, probably less than a few seconds even, it's only one variable value after all. A programmer could go and give Deimos 1 health point, or make so Lava Font deal 1 million damage with each tick, that's the easy part. The time to do these changes depends on how long it takes for the programming back end to open, then how long it takes to deploy such a change to the live servers. The hard (and time consuming) part is on the designer instead :)
    After all, a programmer isn't responsible for making green circles on Vale Guardian stay for a fixed duration, nor how much damage they deal. That's what the designer does. I highly doubt this friend of yours has the statistical data from the Guild Wars 2 playerbase to know the "correct" values for any of the boss statistics, so he is either not a good programmer, a show-off, or you simply didn't word the question appropriately. I'll go with the last one.

    Further, a programmer that uses "if" statements to adjust mob values (like health/damage) is a sad programmer that needs another career path, they are inefficient and in a world were variables exist, they are also useless.

    Like Hell.. a programmer is so responsible for that.. who do you think MAKES this game?

    and please tell us what World Class Programming Profession you are in.

    There are two kinds of Gamers, Salty, and Extra Salty.
    Ego is the Anesthesia that dullens the pain of Stupidity.

  • Voltekka.2375Voltekka.2375 Member ✭✭✭✭
    We need both easy and hard modes

    @phs.6089 said:

    @TexZero.7910 said:

    So how many times have you been to bloodstone fen or ember bay to kill the very obvious easy mode raid bosses that are there ?
    Do you do it daily / weekly / monthly / or did you give it the college 1 and done experience ?

    Because they've given you an easy mode as is. Sorry you dont like the champ bag experience enough to learn and move into raids from it though.

    What is does with raids wahtsoever? And I'm sorry I'm one of not many that want easy raids to drop exotics, maybe a chance of ascended weapons so i can carry new guildes trough, help them learn and get them initial gear, trough raiding, not open world braided zerging in sw and istan.

    I don't need LI if i needed a leg armor I have enough league tickets to make a set from pvp but I only made back item for cosmetics. I didn't even finish making Aurora, juts did the collection parts for precursor as game has no questing, I treat collections as once. So yeah I been to BF more then once.

    You would be better off guiding your guildies through fractals, not raids. Ascended rings drop, difficulty is low at the initial levels, and after T2 ascended boxes have a chance to drop. Why would newbies want to do the hardest pve endgame content (raids) straight away...?

  • Feanor.2358Feanor.2358 Member ✭✭✭✭
    Raids are fine the way they are, combining bosses of various difficulties

    @Voltekka.2375 said:

    @phs.6089 said:

    @TexZero.7910 said:

    So how many times have you been to bloodstone fen or ember bay to kill the very obvious easy mode raid bosses that are there ?
    Do you do it daily / weekly / monthly / or did you give it the college 1 and done experience ?

    Because they've given you an easy mode as is. Sorry you dont like the champ bag experience enough to learn and move into raids from it though.

    What is does with raids wahtsoever? And I'm sorry I'm one of not many that want easy raids to drop exotics, maybe a chance of ascended weapons so i can carry new guildes trough, help them learn and get them initial gear, trough raiding, not open world braided zerging in sw and istan.

    I don't need LI if i needed a leg armor I have enough league tickets to make a set from pvp but I only made back item for cosmetics. I didn't even finish making Aurora, juts did the collection parts for precursor as game has no questing, I treat collections as once. So yeah I been to BF more then once.

    You would be better off guiding your guildies through fractals, not raids. Ascended rings drop, difficulty is low at the initial levels, and after T2 ascended boxes have a chance to drop. Why would newbies want to do the hardest pve endgame content (raids) straight away...?

    Isn't it obvious? They don't want to "waste time" on progression and learning like everyone else did. They just want the shinies, now, with minimal to no effort involved.

  • phs.6089phs.6089 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited August 29, 2018
    We need both easy and hard modes

    @Voltekka.2375 said:

    You would be better off guiding your guildies through fractals, not raids. Ascended rings drop, difficulty is low at the initial levels, and after T2 ascended boxes have a chance to drop. Why would newbies want to do the hardest pve endgame content (raids) straight away...?

    Cus raids are the end-game pve content, not berry farm and istan zerg .
    Raids need intro versions.

    Mind you, whatever anyone else says. I'm the part of players that think, reward=efforts. There is no way I want easy mod raids to drop LI, Boss KP and they should not unlock collections for legendary armor

    Fractal rings are vanila stats.

    Oh what do I need to do to get viper trinkets?
    Collect berries hue.

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    • it would be better to add an alternative pve legendary armor instead of easy mode raids simply to get rid of all the "I want the loot" voices

    Good idea and please make sure it linked to dead LW and PoF metas . And only chest for now, save open world legendary pants for next expac.

    "There is always a lighthouse, there's always a man, there's always a city."

  • Sephylon.4938Sephylon.4938 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited August 29, 2018
    Raids have problems, but we need a better solution

    @phs.6089 said:

    @Voltekka.2375 said:

    You would be better off guiding your guildies through fractals, not raids. Ascended rings drop, difficulty is low at the initial levels, and after T2 ascended boxes have a chance to drop. Why would newbies want to do the hardest pve endgame content (raids) straight away...?

    Cus raids are the end-game pve content, not berry farm and istan zerg .
    Raids need intro versions.

    Mind you, whatever anyone else says. I'm the part of players that think, reward=efforts. There is no way I want easy mod raids to drop LI, Boss KP and they should not unlock collections for legendary armor

    Fractal rings are vanila stats.

    Oh what do I need to do to get viper trinkets?
    Collect berries hue.

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    • it would be better to add an alternative pve legendary armor instead of easy mode raids simply to get rid of all the "I want the loot" voices

    Good idea and please make sure it linked to dead LW and PoF metas . And only chest for now, save open world legendary pants for next expac.

    You can get these from fractals if you want ascended accessories with hot/pof stats
    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Mist_Talisman
    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Mist_Pendant
    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Mist_Band_(Infused)

    I am a giant tomato filled with love. I have come to sell you a house made out of pancakes.

  • Voltekka.2375Voltekka.2375 Member ✭✭✭✭
    We need both easy and hard modes

    @phs.6089 said:

    @Voltekka.2375 said:

    You would be better off guiding your guildies through fractals, not raids. Ascended rings drop, difficulty is low at the initial levels, and after T2 ascended boxes have a chance to drop. Why would newbies want to do the hardest pve endgame content (raids) straight away...?

    Cus raids are the end-game pve content, not berry farm and istan zerg .
    Raids need intro versions.

    Mind you, whatever anyone else says. I'm the part of players that think, reward=efforts. There is no way I want easy mod raids to drop LI, Boss KP and they should not unlock collections for legendary armor

    Fractal rings are vanila stats.

    Oh what do I need to do to get viper trinkets?
    Collect berries hue.

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    • it would be better to add an alternative pve legendary armor instead of easy mode raids simply to get rid of all the "I want the loot" voices

    Good idea and please make sure it linked to dead LW and PoF metas . And only chest for now, save open world legendary pants for next expac.

    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Mist_Talisman
    Good day!

  • Alchimist.4738Alchimist.4738 Member ✭✭✭
    edited August 29, 2018
    We need a hard mode, but not an easy mode

    I honestly wouldn't mind an easy mode for raids, it would allow more player to get into them, which in the long run would be beneficial for both the raid community but also ArenaNet, as this content would be more profitable.

    However they really need to balance the rewards properly between each difficulty mode. Easy mode should give a different kind of killing proof than hard and normal modes, alongside a piece of legendary insight, and once you get four pieces you can create one legendary insight, obviously a reduced drop rate to the unique loot and less raid currency.

    Furthermore easy mode should really be a tutorial for raids, the core mechanics for both the game (dodge, combo fields, boons ...) and the boss (green, special action key ...) should be emphasized, for instance with voice acting a character could say "four of you go into the green area" during Vale Guardian, and then normal mode and hard mode would either expand on those mechanics, making them more punishing, or adding new ones.

    Moreover if we get an easy mode it should be accompanied by a hard mode, which means repeatable CMs and CMs for W1 to W3.

    If we get that I think the raid community could really grow, as everyone would be pleased.

    Edit: Just noticed my vote was the wrong one, it is "We need both easy and hard modes".

  • phs.6089phs.6089 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited August 29, 2018
    We need both easy and hard modes

    @Sephylon.4938 said:

    You can get these from fractals if you want ascended accessories with hot/pof stats
    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Mist_Talisman
    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Mist_Pendant
    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Mist_Band_(Infused)

    I know thank you. I advise my guildies to go run spvp as its more easy to get them for ascended shards then farm 500 pristine relics. But not everyone likes pvp and 500 relics are a long way.

    "There is always a lighthouse, there's always a man, there's always a city."

  • Feanor.2358Feanor.2358 Member ✭✭✭✭
    Raids are fine the way they are, combining bosses of various difficulties

    Long way? Like, maybe a week on lower tiers?

  • Vinceman.4572Vinceman.4572 Member ✭✭✭✭
    Raids are fine the way they are, combining bosses of various difficulties

    @Feanor.2358 said:
    Long way? Like, maybe a week on lower tiers?

    One week is too long. They need to have time to complain on the forums!

    R.I.P. Build Templates, 15.10.2019

  • Sephylon.4938Sephylon.4938 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited August 29, 2018
    Raids have problems, but we need a better solution

    @phs.6089 said:

    @Sephylon.4938 said:

    You can get these from fractals if you want ascended accessories with hot/pof stats
    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Mist_Talisman
    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Mist_Pendant
    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Mist_Band_(Infused)

    I know thank you. I advise my guildies to go ruin spvp as its more easy to get them for ascended shards then farm 500 pristine relics.

    So then why bring it up? You say you want to introduce your friends into raiding to gear them, but raids have lower drop rates for asc than t4s, and t4s drop armor boxes. Unless you're proposing easy mode raids have higher droprates for ascended accessories and weapons and drop armor boxes at thesame rate.

    Also, if you didn't like farming, why would you do raids for asc accessories? They not only have a lower drop rate, but costs more of the content's currency to get vs fractals: 500 pristine fractal relics+gold to get intigrated fractal matrixes for fractals vs 1250 mag shards+gold for raids.

    I am a giant tomato filled with love. I have come to sell you a house made out of pancakes.

  • Voltekka.2375Voltekka.2375 Member ✭✭✭✭
    We need both easy and hard modes

    @Vinceman.4572 said:

    @Feanor.2358 said:
    Long way? Like, maybe a week on lower tiers?

    One week is too long. They need to have time to complain on the forums!

    This isnt complaining. This is proper balancing

  • Voltekka.2375Voltekka.2375 Member ✭✭✭✭
    We need both easy and hard modes

    @Vinceman.4572 said:

    @Feanor.2358 said:
    Long way? Like, maybe a week on lower tiers?

    One week is too long. They need to have time to complain on the forums!

    This isnt complaining. This is proper balancing

  • DaFishBob.6518DaFishBob.6518 Member ✭✭✭
    Raids have problems, but we need a better solution

    I'm of the opinion that the raids should stay as they are for the most part, however there is a problem with getting people properly exposed to this content. Namely it takes way too long and too much preparation to even be considered for a raid. From what I understand, a new person to raids would have to pick up a meta build and then gear up that meta built class with full ascended and infusions and get the proper food and utilities for that build in order to be considered for a raiding group or at least get the greatest chance of being considered. Then after all that is done, they feel like they're just plain bad at raids if they fail and then never come back, even if there's a much easier raid wing available. They're already burned from all that preparation just to fail after all.

    I feel there should be a slightly re-written version of raid available like the commander and their squad somehow disappeared in the raid wing and now you are generic pact soldiers going in to investigate in the commander's stead. As generic soldier, there will be an advisor available to set your build to one of the recommended builds for your role and provide necessary gear to use in this instance, sort of like the level 80 booster NPC in SW or the automatic sPVP builds. Players can change their builds around but the advisor sternly recommends against that. This advisor will follow you around and provides some line of advice every time the raid team wipes out. Completing the raid in this mode won't provide the normal raid rewards, instead it will provide some gold and karma for the players' time and progress on a new achievement towards a title that can be displayed stating that this player has completed this raid enough times to understand the mechanics of the raid. This is to build some confidence that this player can and will do what is necessary for the raid.

  • We need both easy and hard modes

    Isnt Fractal an easy mode to Raid? :p :p

  • Sephylon.4938Sephylon.4938 Member ✭✭✭✭
    Raids have problems, but we need a better solution

    @DaFishBob.6518 said:
    I'm of the opinion that the raids should stay as they are for the most part, however there is a problem with getting people properly exposed to this content. Namely it takes way too long and too much preparation to even be considered for a raid. From what I understand, a new person to raids would have to pick up a meta build and then gear up that meta built class with full ascended and infusions and get the proper food and utilities for that build in order to be considered for a raiding group or at least get the greatest chance of being considered. Then after all that is done, they feel like they're just plain bad at raids if they fail and then never come back, even if there's a much easier raid wing available. They're already burned from all that preparation just to fail after all.

    Not really, full exotics is fine for raids. You only go asc with infusions if you want to min-max it. Raids have been done in full greens too.

    I am a giant tomato filled with love. I have come to sell you a house made out of pancakes.

  • Lucius.2140Lucius.2140 Member ✭✭✭
    We need both easy and hard modes

    @Sykper.6583 said:
    There is nothing that's been said here that hasn't already been brought up and discussed dozens of times.

    Let's just go with a quote from the Raid Dev on the current status:

    @Crystal Reid.2481 said:
    New forum, so I'll jump in with a new post on this.

    We won't be adding a different difficulty tier at this time. Raids need to continue to remain the most challenging content in the game, and they aren't designed to be accessible by everyone from a skill perspective. Could they be more accessible from a "finding 9 other players to play with" side? Sure. That isn't always an easy problem to solve, and any solution would detract away from the team making more raid content. We'd love to get more content out to you guys faster really.

    Their priorities are keeping raids the most challenging content in game, and wanting to deliver the content to us faster than it took this one.

    That's literally all.

    I want a 5 man mode, even if they could not be called raids. My gripe about raids its that getting a group of 9 takes time and i dont have that much free time, specially if you are going with friends. Plus its more difficult to carry people if your guild have only 3-5 players that play good and not all are connected.

    Im sure im not alone in the time and size problem.

    For the Blood Legion! - 11 charr

  • Astralporing.1957Astralporing.1957 Member ✭✭✭✭
    We need an easy mode, but not a hard mode

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    • it would be better to add an alternative pve legendary armor instead of easy mode raids simply to get rid of all the "I want the loot" voices

    Probably, yes, but for some reason that doesn't seem to be an option.

    The whole point of a social game is to play with the people you want to play with, not be forced to play with the people you don't.

  • Feanor.2358Feanor.2358 Member ✭✭✭✭
    Raids are fine the way they are, combining bosses of various difficulties

    @Lucius.2140 said:

    @Sykper.6583 said:
    There is nothing that's been said here that hasn't already been brought up and discussed dozens of times.

    Let's just go with a quote from the Raid Dev on the current status:

    @Crystal Reid.2481 said:
    New forum, so I'll jump in with a new post on this.

    We won't be adding a different difficulty tier at this time. Raids need to continue to remain the most challenging content in the game, and they aren't designed to be accessible by everyone from a skill perspective. Could they be more accessible from a "finding 9 other players to play with" side? Sure. That isn't always an easy problem to solve, and any solution would detract away from the team making more raid content. We'd love to get more content out to you guys faster really.

    Their priorities are keeping raids the most challenging content in game, and wanting to deliver the content to us faster than it took this one.

    That's literally all.

    I want a 5 man mode, even if they could not be called raids. My gripe about raids its that getting a group of 9 takes time and i dont have that much free time, specially if you are going with friends. Plus its more difficult to carry people if your guild have only 3-5 players that play good and not all are connected.

    Im sure im not alone in the time and size problem.

    The 5-man mode is called "Fractals of the Mists". There are the dungeons as well, but they are no longer developed/supported.

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭
    Raids have problems, but we need a better solution

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    • it would be better to add an alternative pve legendary armor instead of easy mode raids simply to get rid of all the "I want the loot" voices

    Just a quick reminder that the current pve legendary armor isn't "pve legendary armor", it's specifically "heart of thorns raid legendary armor".
    Maybe expansion 3 will add a more universal pve legendary armor?

  • Lucius.2140Lucius.2140 Member ✭✭✭
    We need both easy and hard modes

    @Feanor.2358 said:

    @Lucius.2140 said:

    @Sykper.6583 said:
    There is nothing that's been said here that hasn't already been brought up and discussed dozens of times.

    Let's just go with a quote from the Raid Dev on the current status:

    @Crystal Reid.2481 said:
    New forum, so I'll jump in with a new post on this.

    We won't be adding a different difficulty tier at this time. Raids need to continue to remain the most challenging content in the game, and they aren't designed to be accessible by everyone from a skill perspective. Could they be more accessible from a "finding 9 other players to play with" side? Sure. That isn't always an easy problem to solve, and any solution would detract away from the team making more raid content. We'd love to get more content out to you guys faster really.

    Their priorities are keeping raids the most challenging content in game, and wanting to deliver the content to us faster than it took this one.

    That's literally all.

    I want a 5 man mode, even if they could not be called raids. My gripe about raids its that getting a group of 9 takes time and i dont have that much free time, specially if you are going with friends. Plus its more difficult to carry people if your guild have only 3-5 players that play good and not all are connected.

    Im sure im not alone in the time and size problem.

    The 5-man mode is called "Fractals of the Mists". There are the dungeons as well, but they are no longer developed/supported.

    Not the same content, neither the same level of difficulty. I wish that content its playable in a 5 group mode and i dont think im the only one.

    For the Blood Legion! - 11 charr

  • DaFishBob.6518DaFishBob.6518 Member ✭✭✭
    Raids have problems, but we need a better solution

    @Sephylon.4938 said:

    @DaFishBob.6518 said:
    I'm of the opinion that the raids should stay as they are for the most part, however there is a problem with getting people properly exposed to this content. Namely it takes way too long and too much preparation to even be considered for a raid. From what I understand, a new person to raids would have to pick up a meta build and then gear up that meta built class with full ascended and infusions and get the proper food and utilities for that build in order to be considered for a raiding group or at least get the greatest chance of being considered. Then after all that is done, they feel like they're just plain bad at raids if they fail and then never come back, even if there's a much easier raid wing available. They're already burned from all that preparation just to fail after all.

    Not really, full exotics is fine for raids. You only go asc with infusions if you want to min-max it. Raids have been done in full greens too.

    I understand it can be done with lesser gear but finding a group that would accept a newbie without the top gear is going to be tougher than with the gear. That's why I'm recommending a chance for a newbie to walk into a different instance with the same raid content difficulty and be allowed to borrow a proper gear and build set to see if they can understand the raid well enough before going on to look for a raid group or get the gear to become a better group member.

  • TexZero.7910TexZero.7910 Member ✭✭✭✭
    Raids are fine the way they are, combining bosses of various difficulties

    @Cyninja.2954 said:
    I stand by what I've been saying so far:

    • the actual gameplay difficulty of raids is fine and quite low (to succeed, not master)

    • organisational aspect like grouping and LFG need to be improved and tools for Such improved/implemented

    • the amount of work for multiple difficulties is to high with a not guaranteed positive result it might have. Especially considering a big part of the Pro easy raids crowd just wants the loot and couldn't care less about the game mode

    • it would be better to add an alternative pve legendary armor instead of easy mode raids simply to get rid of all the "I want the loot" voices

    These are all rational decisions that i can 100% support as they mirror what i've been saying for ages as well.

  • Xantaria.8726Xantaria.8726 Member ✭✭✭
    We need both easy and hard modes

    @DaFishBob.6518 said:

    @Sephylon.4938 said:

    @DaFishBob.6518 said:
    I'm of the opinion that the raids should stay as they are for the most part, however there is a problem with getting people properly exposed to this content. Namely it takes way too long and too much preparation to even be considered for a raid. From what I understand, a new person to raids would have to pick up a meta build and then gear up that meta built class with full ascended and infusions and get the proper food and utilities for that build in order to be considered for a raiding group or at least get the greatest chance of being considered. Then after all that is done, they feel like they're just plain bad at raids if they fail and then never come back, even if there's a much easier raid wing available. They're already burned from all that preparation just to fail after all.

    Not really, full exotics is fine for raids. You only go asc with infusions if you want to min-max it. Raids have been done in full greens too.

    I understand it can be done with lesser gear but finding a group that would accept a newbie without the top gear is going to be tougher than with the gear. That's why I'm recommending a chance for a newbie to walk into a different instance with the same raid content difficulty and be allowed to borrow a proper gear and build set to see if they can understand the raid well enough before going on to look for a raid group or get the gear to become a better group member.

    Not really, you can raid with exotics and noone would notice, IF people practise their rotation at the golem and fractals before. Rotation is so much more important than going to asc, so much that a full asc player can be outdpsed by someone in full green if the one in asc gear has never at least checked if the stuff he is doing is good, which you can only know by compare your dps with others, being on bosses or golem.

  • STIHL.2489STIHL.2489 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Xantaria.8726 said:

    @DaFishBob.6518 said:

    @Sephylon.4938 said:

    @DaFishBob.6518 said:
    I'm of the opinion that the raids should stay as they are for the most part, however there is a problem with getting people properly exposed to this content. Namely it takes way too long and too much preparation to even be considered for a raid. From what I understand, a new person to raids would have to pick up a meta build and then gear up that meta built class with full ascended and infusions and get the proper food and utilities for that build in order to be considered for a raiding group or at least get the greatest chance of being considered. Then after all that is done, they feel like they're just plain bad at raids if they fail and then never come back, even if there's a much easier raid wing available. They're already burned from all that preparation just to fail after all.

    Not really, full exotics is fine for raids. You only go asc with infusions if you want to min-max it. Raids have been done in full greens too.

    I understand it can be done with lesser gear but finding a group that would accept a newbie without the top gear is going to be tougher than with the gear. That's why I'm recommending a chance for a newbie to walk into a different instance with the same raid content difficulty and be allowed to borrow a proper gear and build set to see if they can understand the raid well enough before going on to look for a raid group or get the gear to become a better group member.

    Not really, you can raid with exotics and noone would notice, IF people practise their rotation at the golem and fractals before. Rotation is so much more important than going to asc, so much that a full asc player can be outdpsed by someone in full green if the one in asc gear has never at least checked if the stuff he is doing is good, which you can only know by compare your dps with others, being on bosses or golem.

    this screams we should just have a 3rd party program run rotations for us.. maybe add that to ArcDPS.

    There are two kinds of Gamers, Salty, and Extra Salty.
    Ego is the Anesthesia that dullens the pain of Stupidity.

  • Sephylon.4938Sephylon.4938 Member ✭✭✭✭
    Raids have problems, but we need a better solution

    @STIHL.2489 said:

    @Xantaria.8726 said:

    @DaFishBob.6518 said:

    @Sephylon.4938 said:

    @DaFishBob.6518 said:
    I'm of the opinion that the raids should stay as they are for the most part, however there is a problem with getting people properly exposed to this content. Namely it takes way too long and too much preparation to even be considered for a raid. From what I understand, a new person to raids would have to pick up a meta build and then gear up that meta built class with full ascended and infusions and get the proper food and utilities for that build in order to be considered for a raiding group or at least get the greatest chance of being considered. Then after all that is done, they feel like they're just plain bad at raids if they fail and then never come back, even if there's a much easier raid wing available. They're already burned from all that preparation just to fail after all.

    Not really, full exotics is fine for raids. You only go asc with infusions if you want to min-max it. Raids have been done in full greens too.

    I understand it can be done with lesser gear but finding a group that would accept a newbie without the top gear is going to be tougher than with the gear. That's why I'm recommending a chance for a newbie to walk into a different instance with the same raid content difficulty and be allowed to borrow a proper gear and build set to see if they can understand the raid well enough before going on to look for a raid group or get the gear to become a better group member.

    Not really, you can raid with exotics and noone would notice, IF people practise their rotation at the golem and fractals before. Rotation is so much more important than going to asc, so much that a full asc player can be outdpsed by someone in full green if the one in asc gear has never at least checked if the stuff he is doing is good, which you can only know by compare your dps with others, being on bosses or golem.

    this screams we should just have a 3rd party program run rotations for us.. maybe add that to ArcDPS.

    nah

    I am a giant tomato filled with love. I have come to sell you a house made out of pancakes.

  • DaFishBob.6518DaFishBob.6518 Member ✭✭✭
    edited August 30, 2018
    Raids have problems, but we need a better solution

    @Xantaria.8726 said:

    @DaFishBob.6518 said:

    @Sephylon.4938 said:

    @DaFishBob.6518 said:
    I'm of the opinion that the raids should stay as they are for the most part, however there is a problem with getting people properly exposed to this content. Namely it takes way too long and too much preparation to even be considered for a raid. From what I understand, a new person to raids would have to pick up a meta build and then gear up that meta built class with full ascended and infusions and get the proper food and utilities for that build in order to be considered for a raiding group or at least get the greatest chance of being considered. Then after all that is done, they feel like they're just plain bad at raids if they fail and then never come back, even if there's a much easier raid wing available. They're already burned from all that preparation just to fail after all.

    Not really, full exotics is fine for raids. You only go asc with infusions if you want to min-max it. Raids have been done in full greens too.

    I understand it can be done with lesser gear but finding a group that would accept a newbie without the top gear is going to be tougher than with the gear. That's why I'm recommending a chance for a newbie to walk into a different instance with the same raid content difficulty and be allowed to borrow a proper gear and build set to see if they can understand the raid well enough before going on to look for a raid group or get the gear to become a better group member.

    Not really, you can raid with exotics and noone would notice, IF people practise their rotation at the golem and fractals before. Rotation is so much more important than going to asc, so much that a full asc player can be outdpsed by someone in full green if the one in asc gear has never at least checked if the stuff he is doing is good, which you can only know by compare your dps with others, being on bosses or golem.

    I don't get why you're bringing up rotation if the person I'm talking about is a newbie that no one know what this person can do. You're all ignoring that I'm talking about someone that has never done a raid before and the people who would normally play the raids has no idea what kind of skill this newbie has. How is a newbie in exotics and/or below going to be a better choice to try than a newbie that has ascended with infusions? Or are they both going to have the same exact chance of getting in?

    I mean are you saying people can actually see what the newbie has done in training or that they would actually follow the newbie into a training and watch them do their rotation? Do you think they'd actually take the time to see all that? Serious question because I'm in that camp of feeling like it'll be too much time to get the equipment before anyone would consider me in a raid.

  • Xantaria.8726Xantaria.8726 Member ✭✭✭
    We need both easy and hard modes

    @DaFishBob.6518 said:

    @Xantaria.8726 said:

    @DaFishBob.6518 said:

    @Sephylon.4938 said:

    @DaFishBob.6518 said:
    I'm of the opinion that the raids should stay as they are for the most part, however there is a problem with getting people properly exposed to this content. Namely it takes way too long and too much preparation to even be considered for a raid. From what I understand, a new person to raids would have to pick up a meta build and then gear up that meta built class with full ascended and infusions and get the proper food and utilities for that build in order to be considered for a raiding group or at least get the greatest chance of being considered. Then after all that is done, they feel like they're just plain bad at raids if they fail and then never come back, even if there's a much easier raid wing available. They're already burned from all that preparation just to fail after all.

    Not really, full exotics is fine for raids. You only go asc with infusions if you want to min-max it. Raids have been done in full greens too.

    I understand it can be done with lesser gear but finding a group that would accept a newbie without the top gear is going to be tougher than with the gear. That's why I'm recommending a chance for a newbie to walk into a different instance with the same raid content difficulty and be allowed to borrow a proper gear and build set to see if they can understand the raid well enough before going on to look for a raid group or get the gear to become a better group member.

    Not really, you can raid with exotics and noone would notice, IF people practise their rotation at the golem and fractals before. Rotation is so much more important than going to asc, so much that a full asc player can be outdpsed by someone in full green if the one in asc gear has never at least checked if the stuff he is doing is good, which you can only know by compare your dps with others, being on bosses or golem.

    I don't get why you're bringing up rotation if the person I'm talking about is a newbie that no one know what this person can do. You're all ignoring that I'm talking about someone that has never done a raid before and the people who would normally play the raids has no idea what kind of skill this newbie has. How is a newbie in exotics and/or below going to be a better choice to try than a newbie that has ascended with infusions? Or are they both going to have the same exact chance of getting in?

    I mean are you saying people can actually see what the newbie has done in training or that they would actually follow the newbie into a training and watch them do their rotation? Do you think they'd actually take the time to see all that? Serious question because I'm in that camp of feeling like it'll be too much time to get the equipment before anyone would consider me in a raid.

    Cause you said it yourself: "but finding a group that would accept a newbie without the top gear is going to be tougher than with the gear", which is wrong. A player who never raided before with full exotics but knowledge of his class and rotations will have a much easier time getting into raids than someone in full asc but doesnt know what he is doing.
    And yes, regular raid-commanders can see if someone doesnt know his class. Its quite easy if you do raids on a daily basis, which many raider do, being it cause they like to kill the bosses, helping out friends still needing the kills or helping new players in training runs. And i dont nned arc dps for that. If the newbie is just hitting autoattacks and is (as a dh for examble and being the only dh in party) not using traps than i can tell that he doesnt know what he is doing.
    What new players should do before trying to get into raids is informing themself about their class and the regular setup in raids (tank, supporter, dps). They dont need to hit "metabenchmarks", but they should at least be able to pull of dps if they join on a dps-spot, even in training. Cause trainingsruns arent there to teach people their class. they are there to teach people the raidencounter, and they dont help themself or the others in the squad if they cant pull of their role at least, which can be practised on the golem and fractals before. And learning a rotation isnt hard. Most builds, being them meta or non-meta, only takes maybe some dedicated 30 mins to get a roughly idea behind the build.
    Its just a fact that most bosses have a timer, so people need to pul ofl some dps. If people can pull of 20-25k dps on the golem, then they should reach 10-15k dps on a boss, which a dps role should at least pull of.

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭
    Raids are fine the way they are, combining bosses of various difficulties

    @Xantaria.8726 said:
    And yes, regular raid-commanders can see if someone doesnt know his class. Its quite easy if you do raids on a daily basis, which many raider do, being it cause they like to kill the bosses, helping out friends still needing the kills or helping new players in training runs. And i dont nned arc dps for that. If the newbie is just hitting autoattacks and is (as a dh for examble and being the only dh in party) not using traps than i can tell that he doesnt know what he is doing.

    This, oh so much this right here.

    If you have run the content so many times as many regulars have, you notice immediately if someone steps out of line and how grave his mistake is/was. This can be as basic as standing just slightly off the group or taking a moment to long movement wise or missing some basic non lethal mechanic. I'm not even talking about basic stuff like Gorseval slams or other obvious things, talking basic positioning of the entire squad which an experienced commander has in view.

    I've had training runs where even though we performed fine, killed the boss with no losses, ran through first try more experienced players would friendly call out mistakes (being at 700 LI myself with currently 8 weeks of no GW2 access due to work, I do have friends who are at 1.2k LI and above). The same goes for myself when I run training or normal raids with 250 LI or below.

    The only times I've ever seen (or asked for myself) of any type of armor or item linking for raids is when it's legendary armor to meet the LI requirements if some are imposed. Depending on class rotation complexity, 10-20 minutes of golem training will let someone in all exotics vastly pull ahead of someone in full ascended. People severely underestimate how much a little practice and rotation safety can bring performance wise while greatly overestimating how much ascended versus exotic gear provides (not to mention that armor is nearly insignificant in this scenario).

  • DaFishBob.6518DaFishBob.6518 Member ✭✭✭
    edited August 30, 2018
    Raids have problems, but we need a better solution

    All right, so you're saying that there are regular raid commanders that would let a newbie along to show what they can do instead of simply rejecting before seeing the newbie fight, got it.

    And what's with the comment about "mah noob friends?" I don't care if "mah noob friends" suck and never finish a raid, I just want them to know that they suck before thinking they need to fully gear up and waste their time just to find out they suck.

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭
    Raids have problems, but we need a better solution

    @DaFishBob.6518 said:
    I just want them to know that they suck before thinking they need to fully gear up and waste their time just to find out they suck.

    Another way for them to find out is by playing those other pieces of content that provide the gear. If they are having trouble in fractals, chances are they will have trouble in Raids too. If they have trouble in low tier fractals, they will have problems in higher tiers. Difficulty increases progressively in the game so there is plenty of opportunity to learn your skill level.

  • Aeolus.3615Aeolus.3615 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited August 30, 2018

    IMo its is more a lack of decent A.I(more towards simulated behavior than A.I ofc... ) & mechanics, rather than have more health sponges hitting hard...

    Boss mechanics are not clever, just dull aoe cast every mob is most the same and that it, stack in one place and spam...

  • Sephylon.4938Sephylon.4938 Member ✭✭✭✭
    Raids have problems, but we need a better solution

    @DaFishBob.6518 said:
    All right, so you're saying that there are regular raid commanders that would let a newbie along to show what they can do instead of simply rejecting before seeing the newbie fight, got it.

    And what's with the comment about "mah noob friends?" I don't care if "mah noob friends" suck and never finish a raid, I just want them to know that they suck before thinking they need to fully gear up and waste their time just to find out they suck.

    How would they even know they were a noobie?

    I am a giant tomato filled with love. I have come to sell you a house made out of pancakes.

  • TexZero.7910TexZero.7910 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited August 30, 2018
    Raids are fine the way they are, combining bosses of various difficulties

    @DaFishBob.6518 said:
    And what's with the comment about "mah noob friends?" I don't care if "mah noob friends" suck and never finish a raid, I just want them to know that they suck before thinking they need to fully gear up and waste their time just to find out they suck.

    You're the one that brought it up. You're trying to force someone whose at baseline 0 into the endgame experience. It's a bad practice built on a bad faith argument.

    Either you're
    1) Under Geared (In which case play the game, craft gear go raid)
    2) Inexperienced (In which case join a training run)
    or
    3) A Greenhorn not just to raids, but to the game. In which case stop rushing and play the game. Raids ain't going anywhere.

    So stop using disengious arguments like think of the noobies. I am. I'm thinking they still have a long way to go before contemplating raids if they are actually noobies like you know dungeons to gear up, fractals to gear up etc....
    There's plenty of 0 cost (outside of time) gear for people to grab to enable them getting started on the path to raids that doesn't involve fake outrage leading to an "easy mode" slippery slope.

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited August 30, 2018
    Raids are fine the way they are, combining bosses of various difficulties

    @DaFishBob.6518 said:
    All right, so you're saying that there are regular raid commanders that would let a newbie along to show what they can do instead of simply rejecting before seeing the newbie fight, got it.

    If it's a training raid, personally I don't care if people are exotic or ascended as long as the stats on the gear are correct or close to correct.

    What I'm saying is:
    The chance of not getting booted for perforing badly will drastically reduce for having rotation experience rather than going in full ascended and clueless.

    @DaFishBob.6518 said:
    And what's with the comment about "mah noob friends?" I don't care if "mah noob friends" suck and never finish a raid, I just want them to know that they suck before thinking they need to fully gear up and waste their time just to find out they suck.

    Even more of a reason to start with exotic gear which is a fraction of ascended cost.

    Though I do agree to what other people are mentioning: taking someone completely inexperienced strait to raids is not in their best interest UNLESS it's maybe a guild training raid and the players are fast learners.

  • STIHL.2489STIHL.2489 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Sephylon.4938 said:

    @STIHL.2489 said:

    @Xantaria.8726 said:

    @DaFishBob.6518 said:

    @Sephylon.4938 said:

    @DaFishBob.6518 said:
    I'm of the opinion that the raids should stay as they are for the most part, however there is a problem with getting people properly exposed to this content. Namely it takes way too long and too much preparation to even be considered for a raid. From what I understand, a new person to raids would have to pick up a meta build and then gear up that meta built class with full ascended and infusions and get the proper food and utilities for that build in order to be considered for a raiding group or at least get the greatest chance of being considered. Then after all that is done, they feel like they're just plain bad at raids if they fail and then never come back, even if there's a much easier raid wing available. They're already burned from all that preparation just to fail after all.

    Not really, full exotics is fine for raids. You only go asc with infusions if you want to min-max it. Raids have been done in full greens too.

    I understand it can be done with lesser gear but finding a group that would accept a newbie without the top gear is going to be tougher than with the gear. That's why I'm recommending a chance for a newbie to walk into a different instance with the same raid content difficulty and be allowed to borrow a proper gear and build set to see if they can understand the raid well enough before going on to look for a raid group or get the gear to become a better group member.

    Not really, you can raid with exotics and noone would notice, IF people practise their rotation at the golem and fractals before. Rotation is so much more important than going to asc, so much that a full asc player can be outdpsed by someone in full green if the one in asc gear has never at least checked if the stuff he is doing is good, which you can only know by compare your dps with others, being on bosses or golem.

    this screams we should just have a 3rd party program run rotations for us.. maybe add that to ArcDPS.

    nah

    Eh.. why not!

    Why not just put a "Optimal DPS" button/setting in ArcDPS, and it sets you up with the Meta Abilities, and runs the rotations for you. Not like we all wouldn't use this anyway, and it would make it a heck of a lot easier on anyone that wants to just get things done.

    Maybe also have a built in DPS meter for you that calculates your gear/stats to tell you what your optimal DPS output would be with what you have, and give you a list of what you need to acquire/replace.

    Not like we are going to buck the norm, so may as well just make it easy to get it done and over with.

    There are two kinds of Gamers, Salty, and Extra Salty.
    Ego is the Anesthesia that dullens the pain of Stupidity.

  • Sephylon.4938Sephylon.4938 Member ✭✭✭✭
    Raids have problems, but we need a better solution

    @STIHL.2489 said:

    @Sephylon.4938 said:

    @STIHL.2489 said:

    @Xantaria.8726 said:

    @DaFishBob.6518 said:

    @Sephylon.4938 said:

    @DaFishBob.6518 said:
    I'm of the opinion that the raids should stay as they are for the most part, however there is a problem with getting people properly exposed to this content. Namely it takes way too long and too much preparation to even be considered for a raid. From what I understand, a new person to raids would have to pick up a meta build and then gear up that meta built class with full ascended and infusions and get the proper food and utilities for that build in order to be considered for a raiding group or at least get the greatest chance of being considered. Then after all that is done, they feel like they're just plain bad at raids if they fail and then never come back, even if there's a much easier raid wing available. They're already burned from all that preparation just to fail after all.

    Not really, full exotics is fine for raids. You only go asc with infusions if you want to min-max it. Raids have been done in full greens too.

    I understand it can be done with lesser gear but finding a group that would accept a newbie without the top gear is going to be tougher than with the gear. That's why I'm recommending a chance for a newbie to walk into a different instance with the same raid content difficulty and be allowed to borrow a proper gear and build set to see if they can understand the raid well enough before going on to look for a raid group or get the gear to become a better group member.

    Not really, you can raid with exotics and noone would notice, IF people practise their rotation at the golem and fractals before. Rotation is so much more important than going to asc, so much that a full asc player can be outdpsed by someone in full green if the one in asc gear has never at least checked if the stuff he is doing is good, which you can only know by compare your dps with others, being on bosses or golem.

    this screams we should just have a 3rd party program run rotations for us.. maybe add that to ArcDPS.

    nah

    Eh.. why not!

    Why not just put a "Optimal DPS" button/setting in ArcDPS, and it sets you up with the Meta Abilities, and runs the rotations for you. Not like we all wouldn't use this anyway, and it would make it a heck of a lot easier on anyone that wants to just get things done.

    Maybe also have a built in DPS meter for you that calculates your gear/stats to tell you what your optimal DPS output would be with what you have, and give you a list of what you need to acquire/replace.

    Not like we are going to buck the norm, so may as well just make it easy to get it done and over with.

    Mostly movement issues. Especially on ele, when the script says its time for you to do meteor, in the middle of gors retal or sab flame wall, you'd get screwed over. As for the later, that's what sc/qt/benchmark guilds are for

    I am a giant tomato filled with love. I have come to sell you a house made out of pancakes.

  • yann.1946yann.1946 Member ✭✭✭✭
    Raids have problems, but we need a better solution

    @STIHL.2489 said:

    @Sephylon.4938 said:

    @STIHL.2489 said:

    @Xantaria.8726 said:

    @DaFishBob.6518 said:

    @Sephylon.4938 said:

    @DaFishBob.6518 said:
    I'm of the opinion that the raids should stay as they are for the most part, however there is a problem with getting people properly exposed to this content. Namely it takes way too long and too much preparation to even be considered for a raid. From what I understand, a new person to raids would have to pick up a meta build and then gear up that meta built class with full ascended and infusions and get the proper food and utilities for that build in order to be considered for a raiding group or at least get the greatest chance of being considered. Then after all that is done, they feel like they're just plain bad at raids if they fail and then never come back, even if there's a much easier raid wing available. They're already burned from all that preparation just to fail after all.

    Not really, full exotics is fine for raids. You only go asc with infusions if you want to min-max it. Raids have been done in full greens too.

    I understand it can be done with lesser gear but finding a group that would accept a newbie without the top gear is going to be tougher than with the gear. That's why I'm recommending a chance for a newbie to walk into a different instance with the same raid content difficulty and be allowed to borrow a proper gear and build set to see if they can understand the raid well enough before going on to look for a raid group or get the gear to become a better group member.

    Not really, you can raid with exotics and noone would notice, IF people practise their rotation at the golem and fractals before. Rotation is so much more important than going to asc, so much that a full asc player can be outdpsed by someone in full green if the one in asc gear has never at least checked if the stuff he is doing is good, which you can only know by compare your dps with others, being on bosses or golem.

    this screams we should just have a 3rd party program run rotations for us.. maybe add that to ArcDPS.

    nah

    Eh.. why not!

    Why not just put a "Optimal DPS" button/setting in ArcDPS, and it sets you up with the Meta Abilities, and runs the rotations for you. Not like we all wouldn't use this anyway, and it would make it a heck of a lot easier on anyone that wants to just get things done.

    Maybe also have a built in DPS meter for you that calculates your gear/stats to tell you what your optimal DPS output would be with what you have, and give you a list of what you need to acquire/replace.

    Not like we are going to buck the norm, so may as well just make it easy to get it done and over with.

    Or why play the game at all. Let's just put everything on autopathing.

  • STIHL.2489STIHL.2489 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @yann.1946 said:

    @STIHL.2489 said:

    @Sephylon.4938 said:

    @STIHL.2489 said:

    @Xantaria.8726 said:

    @DaFishBob.6518 said:

    @Sephylon.4938 said:

    @DaFishBob.6518 said:
    I'm of the opinion that the raids should stay as they are for the most part, however there is a problem with getting people properly exposed to this content. Namely it takes way too long and too much preparation to even be considered for a raid. From what I understand, a new person to raids would have to pick up a meta build and then gear up that meta built class with full ascended and infusions and get the proper food and utilities for that build in order to be considered for a raiding group or at least get the greatest chance of being considered. Then after all that is done, they feel like they're just plain bad at raids if they fail and then never come back, even if there's a much easier raid wing available. They're already burned from all that preparation just to fail after all.

    Not really, full exotics is fine for raids. You only go asc with infusions if you want to min-max it. Raids have been done in full greens too.

    I understand it can be done with lesser gear but finding a group that would accept a newbie without the top gear is going to be tougher than with the gear. That's why I'm recommending a chance for a newbie to walk into a different instance with the same raid content difficulty and be allowed to borrow a proper gear and build set to see if they can understand the raid well enough before going on to look for a raid group or get the gear to become a better group member.

    Not really, you can raid with exotics and noone would notice, IF people practise their rotation at the golem and fractals before. Rotation is so much more important than going to asc, so much that a full asc player can be outdpsed by someone in full green if the one in asc gear has never at least checked if the stuff he is doing is good, which you can only know by compare your dps with others, being on bosses or golem.

    this screams we should just have a 3rd party program run rotations for us.. maybe add that to ArcDPS.

    nah

    Eh.. why not!

    Why not just put a "Optimal DPS" button/setting in ArcDPS, and it sets you up with the Meta Abilities, and runs the rotations for you. Not like we all wouldn't use this anyway, and it would make it a heck of a lot easier on anyone that wants to just get things done.

    Maybe also have a built in DPS meter for you that calculates your gear/stats to tell you what your optimal DPS output would be with what you have, and give you a list of what you need to acquire/replace.

    Not like we are going to buck the norm, so may as well just make it easy to get it done and over with.

    Or why play the game at all. Let's just put everything on autopathing.

    Oh let's not get all melodramatic.

    @Sephylon.4938 said:

    @STIHL.2489 said:

    @Sephylon.4938 said:

    @STIHL.2489 said:

    @Xantaria.8726 said:

    @DaFishBob.6518 said:

    @Sephylon.4938 said:

    @DaFishBob.6518 said:
    I'm of the opinion that the raids should stay as they are for the most part, however there is a problem with getting people properly exposed to this content. Namely it takes way too long and too much preparation to even be considered for a raid. From what I understand, a new person to raids would have to pick up a meta build and then gear up that meta built class with full ascended and infusions and get the proper food and utilities for that build in order to be considered for a raiding group or at least get the greatest chance of being considered. Then after all that is done, they feel like they're just plain bad at raids if they fail and then never come back, even if there's a much easier raid wing available. They're already burned from all that preparation just to fail after all.

    Not really, full exotics is fine for raids. You only go asc with infusions if you want to min-max it. Raids have been done in full greens too.

    I understand it can be done with lesser gear but finding a group that would accept a newbie without the top gear is going to be tougher than with the gear. That's why I'm recommending a chance for a newbie to walk into a different instance with the same raid content difficulty and be allowed to borrow a proper gear and build set to see if they can understand the raid well enough before going on to look for a raid group or get the gear to become a better group member.

    Not really, you can raid with exotics and noone would notice, IF people practise their rotation at the golem and fractals before. Rotation is so much more important than going to asc, so much that a full asc player can be outdpsed by someone in full green if the one in asc gear has never at least checked if the stuff he is doing is good, which you can only know by compare your dps with others, being on bosses or golem.

    this screams we should just have a 3rd party program run rotations for us.. maybe add that to ArcDPS.

    nah

    Eh.. why not!

    Why not just put a "Optimal DPS" button/setting in ArcDPS, and it sets you up with the Meta Abilities, and runs the rotations for you. Not like we all wouldn't use this anyway, and it would make it a heck of a lot easier on anyone that wants to just get things done.

    Maybe also have a built in DPS meter for you that calculates your gear/stats to tell you what your optimal DPS output would be with what you have, and give you a list of what you need to acquire/replace.

    Not like we are going to buck the norm, so may as well just make it easy to get it done and over with.

    Mostly movement issues. Especially on ele, when the script says its time for you to do meteor, in the middle of gors retal or sab flame wall, you'd get screwed over. As for the later, that's what sc/qt/benchmark guilds are for

    Yah.. but it could still be applied to thieves, warriors, and other basic DPS classes.

    and golems are there for DPS meters, yet we have 3rd party software to help us.. this is the same thing.

    There are two kinds of Gamers, Salty, and Extra Salty.
    Ego is the Anesthesia that dullens the pain of Stupidity.

  • Sephylon.4938Sephylon.4938 Member ✭✭✭✭
    Raids have problems, but we need a better solution

    @STIHL.2489 said:

    @yann.1946 said:

    @STIHL.2489 said:

    @Sephylon.4938 said:

    @STIHL.2489 said:

    @Xantaria.8726 said:

    @DaFishBob.6518 said:

    @Sephylon.4938 said:

    @DaFishBob.6518 said:
    I'm of the opinion that the raids should stay as they are for the most part, however there is a problem with getting people properly exposed to this content. Namely it takes way too long and too much preparation to even be considered for a raid. From what I understand, a new person to raids would have to pick up a meta build and then gear up that meta built class with full ascended and infusions and get the proper food and utilities for that build in order to be considered for a raiding group or at least get the greatest chance of being considered. Then after all that is done, they feel like they're just plain bad at raids if they fail and then never come back, even if there's a much easier raid wing available. They're already burned from all that preparation just to fail after all.

    Not really, full exotics is fine for raids. You only go asc with infusions if you want to min-max it. Raids have been done in full greens too.

    I understand it can be done with lesser gear but finding a group that would accept a newbie without the top gear is going to be tougher than with the gear. That's why I'm recommending a chance for a newbie to walk into a different instance with the same raid content difficulty and be allowed to borrow a proper gear and build set to see if they can understand the raid well enough before going on to look for a raid group or get the gear to become a better group member.

    Not really, you can raid with exotics and noone would notice, IF people practise their rotation at the golem and fractals before. Rotation is so much more important than going to asc, so much that a full asc player can be outdpsed by someone in full green if the one in asc gear has never at least checked if the stuff he is doing is good, which you can only know by compare your dps with others, being on bosses or golem.

    this screams we should just have a 3rd party program run rotations for us.. maybe add that to ArcDPS.

    nah

    Eh.. why not!

    Why not just put a "Optimal DPS" button/setting in ArcDPS, and it sets you up with the Meta Abilities, and runs the rotations for you. Not like we all wouldn't use this anyway, and it would make it a heck of a lot easier on anyone that wants to just get things done.

    Maybe also have a built in DPS meter for you that calculates your gear/stats to tell you what your optimal DPS output would be with what you have, and give you a list of what you need to acquire/replace.

    Not like we are going to buck the norm, so may as well just make it easy to get it done and over with.

    Or why play the game at all. Let's just put everything on autopathing.

    Oh let's not get all melodramatic.

    @Sephylon.4938 said:

    @STIHL.2489 said:

    @Sephylon.4938 said:

    @STIHL.2489 said:

    @Xantaria.8726 said:

    @DaFishBob.6518 said:

    @Sephylon.4938 said:

    @DaFishBob.6518 said:
    I'm of the opinion that the raids should stay as they are for the most part, however there is a problem with getting people properly exposed to this content. Namely it takes way too long and too much preparation to even be considered for a raid. From what I understand, a new person to raids would have to pick up a meta build and then gear up that meta built class with full ascended and infusions and get the proper food and utilities for that build in order to be considered for a raiding group or at least get the greatest chance of being considered. Then after all that is done, they feel like they're just plain bad at raids if they fail and then never come back, even if there's a much easier raid wing available. They're already burned from all that preparation just to fail after all.

    Not really, full exotics is fine for raids. You only go asc with infusions if you want to min-max it. Raids have been done in full greens too.

    I understand it can be done with lesser gear but finding a group that would accept a newbie without the top gear is going to be tougher than with the gear. That's why I'm recommending a chance for a newbie to walk into a different instance with the same raid content difficulty and be allowed to borrow a proper gear and build set to see if they can understand the raid well enough before going on to look for a raid group or get the gear to become a better group member.

    Not really, you can raid with exotics and noone would notice, IF people practise their rotation at the golem and fractals before. Rotation is so much more important than going to asc, so much that a full asc player can be outdpsed by someone in full green if the one in asc gear has never at least checked if the stuff he is doing is good, which you can only know by compare your dps with others, being on bosses or golem.

    this screams we should just have a 3rd party program run rotations for us.. maybe add that to ArcDPS.

    nah

    Eh.. why not!

    Why not just put a "Optimal DPS" button/setting in ArcDPS, and it sets you up with the Meta Abilities, and runs the rotations for you. Not like we all wouldn't use this anyway, and it would make it a heck of a lot easier on anyone that wants to just get things done.

    Maybe also have a built in DPS meter for you that calculates your gear/stats to tell you what your optimal DPS output would be with what you have, and give you a list of what you need to acquire/replace.

    Not like we are going to buck the norm, so may as well just make it easy to get it done and over with.

    Mostly movement issues. Especially on ele, when the script says its time for you to do meteor, in the middle of gors retal or sab flame wall, you'd get screwed over. As for the later, that's what sc/qt/benchmark guilds are for

    Yah.. but it could still be applied to thieves, warriors, and other basic DPS classes.

    and golems are there for DPS meters, yet we have 3rd party software to help us.. this is the same thing.

    Yeah but if we put it for 1, the others will cry for it as well

    I am a giant tomato filled with love. I have come to sell you a house made out of pancakes.

  • DaFishBob.6518DaFishBob.6518 Member ✭✭✭
    Raids have problems, but we need a better solution

    @TexZero.7910 said:

    @DaFishBob.6518 said:
    And what's with the comment about "mah noob friends?" I don't care if "mah noob friends" suck and never finish a raid, I just want them to know that they suck before thinking they need to fully gear up and waste their time just to find out they suck.

    You're the one that brought it up. You're trying to force someone whose at baseline 0 into the endgame experience. It's a bad practice built on a bad faith argument.

    Either you're
    1) Under Geared (In which case play the game, craft gear go raid)
    2) Inexperienced (In which case join a training run)
    or
    3) A Greenhorn not just to raids, but to the game. In which case stop rushing and play the game. Raids ain't going anywhere.

    So stop using disengious arguments like think of the noobies. I am. I'm thinking they still have a long way to go before contemplating raids if they are actually noobies like you know dungeons to gear up, fractals to gear up etc....
    There's plenty of 0 cost (outside of time) gear for people to grab to enable them getting started on the path to raids that doesn't involve fake outrage leading to an "easy mode" slippery slope.

    I guess if you consider newbie = noob you could say that.

    In my mind, a noob is a person that might not actually be new, just plain bad and unwilling to get better and complaining things must be easier to cater to their whims instead of getting down and making the effort to get better. I don't care about noobs, they don't deserve to pass the raid experience because nothing save just leaving a box of rewards at the entrance would satisfy them. "easy mode?" Do you not notice I voted against "easy mode?"

    I was trying to focus on those who one way or another have no experience with raids but are interested in getting up to that level of play. Give them a chance to go in, gear up, and fail until they finish it for a paltry reward (just gold and karma) and decide they might want to do it for real. No wasting time on anything else but the experience of learning mechanics and effective character use (AKA dps rotations). Then decide to go all in. Burn me for calling me disingenuous. Is it wrong to suggest that they can demo what a raid is like without bothering the regular raiders?

    By the way, how often do you see training runs normally? Because if there are people who would regularly do training runs then I'll admit my ideas and concerns go out the window.

  • STIHL.2489STIHL.2489 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Sephylon.4938 said:

    @STIHL.2489 said:

    @yann.1946 said:

    @STIHL.2489 said:

    @Sephylon.4938 said:

    @STIHL.2489 said:

    @Xantaria.8726 said:

    @DaFishBob.6518 said:

    @Sephylon.4938 said:

    @DaFishBob.6518 said:
    I'm of the opinion that the raids should stay as they are for the most part, however there is a problem with getting people properly exposed to this content. Namely it takes way too long and too much preparation to even be considered for a raid. From what I understand, a new person to raids would have to pick up a meta build and then gear up that meta built class with full ascended and infusions and get the proper food and utilities for that build in order to be considered for a raiding group or at least get the greatest chance of being considered. Then after all that is done, they feel like they're just plain bad at raids if they fail and then never come back, even if there's a much easier raid wing available. They're already burned from all that preparation just to fail after all.

    Not really, full exotics is fine for raids. You only go asc with infusions if you want to min-max it. Raids have been done in full greens too.

    I understand it can be done with lesser gear but finding a group that would accept a newbie without the top gear is going to be tougher than with the gear. That's why I'm recommending a chance for a newbie to walk into a different instance with the same raid content difficulty and be allowed to borrow a proper gear and build set to see if they can understand the raid well enough before going on to look for a raid group or get the gear to become a better group member.

    Not really, you can raid with exotics and noone would notice, IF people practise their rotation at the golem and fractals before. Rotation is so much more important than going to asc, so much that a full asc player can be outdpsed by someone in full green if the one in asc gear has never at least checked if the stuff he is doing is good, which you can only know by compare your dps with others, being on bosses or golem.

    this screams we should just have a 3rd party program run rotations for us.. maybe add that to ArcDPS.

    nah

    Eh.. why not!

    Why not just put a "Optimal DPS" button/setting in ArcDPS, and it sets you up with the Meta Abilities, and runs the rotations for you. Not like we all wouldn't use this anyway, and it would make it a heck of a lot easier on anyone that wants to just get things done.

    Maybe also have a built in DPS meter for you that calculates your gear/stats to tell you what your optimal DPS output would be with what you have, and give you a list of what you need to acquire/replace.

    Not like we are going to buck the norm, so may as well just make it easy to get it done and over with.

    Or why play the game at all. Let's just put everything on autopathing.

    Oh let's not get all melodramatic.

    @Sephylon.4938 said:

    @STIHL.2489 said:

    @Sephylon.4938 said:

    @STIHL.2489 said:

    @Xantaria.8726 said:

    @DaFishBob.6518 said:

    @Sephylon.4938 said:

    @DaFishBob.6518 said:
    I'm of the opinion that the raids should stay as they are for the most part, however there is a problem with getting people properly exposed to this content. Namely it takes way too long and too much preparation to even be considered for a raid. From what I understand, a new person to raids would have to pick up a meta build and then gear up that meta built class with full ascended and infusions and get the proper food and utilities for that build in order to be considered for a raiding group or at least get the greatest chance of being considered. Then after all that is done, they feel like they're just plain bad at raids if they fail and then never come back, even if there's a much easier raid wing available. They're already burned from all that preparation just to fail after all.

    Not really, full exotics is fine for raids. You only go asc with infusions if you want to min-max it. Raids have been done in full greens too.

    I understand it can be done with lesser gear but finding a group that would accept a newbie without the top gear is going to be tougher than with the gear. That's why I'm recommending a chance for a newbie to walk into a different instance with the same raid content difficulty and be allowed to borrow a proper gear and build set to see if they can understand the raid well enough before going on to look for a raid group or get the gear to become a better group member.

    Not really, you can raid with exotics and noone would notice, IF people practise their rotation at the golem and fractals before. Rotation is so much more important than going to asc, so much that a full asc player can be outdpsed by someone in full green if the one in asc gear has never at least checked if the stuff he is doing is good, which you can only know by compare your dps with others, being on bosses or golem.

    this screams we should just have a 3rd party program run rotations for us.. maybe add that to ArcDPS.

    nah

    Eh.. why not!

    Why not just put a "Optimal DPS" button/setting in ArcDPS, and it sets you up with the Meta Abilities, and runs the rotations for you. Not like we all wouldn't use this anyway, and it would make it a heck of a lot easier on anyone that wants to just get things done.

    Maybe also have a built in DPS meter for you that calculates your gear/stats to tell you what your optimal DPS output would be with what you have, and give you a list of what you need to acquire/replace.

    Not like we are going to buck the norm, so may as well just make it easy to get it done and over with.

    Mostly movement issues. Especially on ele, when the script says its time for you to do meteor, in the middle of gors retal or sab flame wall, you'd get screwed over. As for the later, that's what sc/qt/benchmark guilds are for

    Yah.. but it could still be applied to thieves, warriors, and other basic DPS classes.

    and golems are there for DPS meters, yet we have 3rd party software to help us.. this is the same thing.

    Yeah but if we put it for 1, the others will cry for it as well

    So.. what is the problem here again?

    There are two kinds of Gamers, Salty, and Extra Salty.
    Ego is the Anesthesia that dullens the pain of Stupidity.

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