Do raids need easy/normal/hard difficulty mode? [merged] - Page 82 — Guild Wars 2 Forums

Do raids need easy/normal/hard difficulty mode? [merged]

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Comments

  • yann.1946yann.1946 Member ✭✭✭
    Raids have problems, but we need a better solution

    @Blaeys.3102 said:
    Not sure what is blind about the poll. The options seem well defined.

    Trying to argue it away with strawman fallacies (and yes, that term applies here) wont make the numbers go away.

    Of course, continuing the debate and discussion is healthy, but I think it is important that Anet see these numbers and what they represent. If additional resources ever do become available for further raid development, the (albeit slight) majority of those willing to respond on this subforum see value in moving to a more tiered difficulty model that includes a more casual experience alongside one for harder core players.

    The only problem I have with the numbers is

    1) it has no statistical relevance because the people voting for it are skewed.

    2) you're claiming everyone who voted their are problems but they need better solutions as people who want to see changes to the mode itself. I for example would just like better guild finder.

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭
    Raids have problems, but we need a better solution

    @Blaeys.3102 said:
    Not sure what is blind about the poll. The options seem well defined.

    It's a poll on a game forum asking "do you want this to be easier?" That by itself is extremely biased. There is nothing well defined about the poll options.

  • Astralporing.1957Astralporing.1957 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 24, 2018
    We need an easy mode, but not a hard mode

    @Sorin Noroku.5342 said:

    @Blaeys.3102 said:
    Not sure what is blind about the poll. The options seem well defined.

    Trying to argue it away with strawman fallacies (and yes, that term applies here) wont make the numbers go away.

    Problem is, a lot of players avoid the forum heavily... also, how many of those that voted actually raid?

    Forums in general have an overrepresentation of hardcore players, and in addition the poll was in dungeon forum, where that tendency is even more skewed.

    Once more, the devs have said they designed these to be more difficult. Even still they are incredibly easy. I cannot tell you how many streams I’ve seen of people who are BUTCHERING their class and build, yet pass with ease. The dps checks are super light (baring dhuum/largos) and the mechanics are fairly simple. We know this by the vast amount of people learning raids in the discord training servers, and getting kills.

    And yet that "vast amount of people" is still only a very small part of the whole population. And as for dev designs, well, the raids are one of the examples showing that those can change.

    The whole point of a social game is to play with the people you want to play with, not be forced to play with the people you don't.

  • Blaeys.3102Blaeys.3102 Member ✭✭✭
    edited October 24, 2018
    We need both easy and hard modes

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Blaeys.3102 said:
    Not sure what is blind about the poll. The options seem well defined.

    It's a poll on a game forum asking "do you want this to be easier?" That by itself is extremely biased. There is nothing well defined about the poll options.

    Except, that is not the question that was asked - and, by paraphrasing, you are using a slightly misleading debate tactic similar to the one you used in the previous response. A strawman argument is where you change the parameters or try to use a seemingly related example (that is, in fact, total different) to make it easier to argue against something - rather than arguing against a point directly.

    The OP went to great length to define what was meant by the question - and the question itself was worded in a way that was far less biased than the example you give above - which, again, is not how the question was asked at all.

    The question is straightforward. The numbers are there. I realize they are not what many on these forums wanted to see, but they are miraculously still there despite anyone (probably including devs) wishing them away.

    Continue to argue pros and cons of the topic, but the idea that these numbers are in some way meaningless or communicate something other than a desire for an easier mode alongside what we have now - after almost a year on a subforum dedicated exclusively to raiding, dungeons and fractals - is not really debatable.

  • yann.1946yann.1946 Member ✭✭✭
    Raids have problems, but we need a better solution

    @Blaeys.3102 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Blaeys.3102 said:
    Not sure what is blind about the poll. The options seem well defined.

    It's a poll on a game forum asking "do you want this to be easier?" That by itself is extremely biased. There is nothing well defined about the poll options.

    Except, that is not the question that was asked - and, by paraphrasing, you are using a slightly misleading debate tactic similar to the one you used in the previous response. A strawman argument is where you change the parameters or try to use a seemingly related example (that is, in fact, total different) to make it easier to argue against something - rather than arguing against a point directly.

    The OP went to great length to define what was meant by the question - and the question itself was worded in a way that was far less biased than the example you give above - which, again, is not how the question was asked at all.

    The question is straightforward. The numbers are there. I realize they are not what many on these forums wanted to see, but they are miraculously still there despite anyone (probably including devs) wishing them away.

    Continue to argue pros and cons of the topic, but the idea that these numbers are in some way meaningless or communicate something other than a desire for an easier mode alongside what we have now - after almost a year on a subforum dedicated exclusively to raiding, dungeons and fractals - is not really debatable.

    While it is undeniable what the results of this poll are it's very debatable what they mean for the desires of the player base.

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭
    Raids have problems, but we need a better solution

    @Blaeys.3102 said:
    The OP went to great length to define what was meant by the question - and the question itself was worded in a way that was far less biased than the example you give above - which, again, is not how the question was asked at all.

    I'm willing to bet that the vast majority didn't even read what the OP posted and instead answered based on the simple question: "should we make things easier?" It's not even hard to know this based simply on the responses we got afterwards. Then they went to their guild mates to come vote on this thread. It's a real no brainer when there is a question about making things easier that players will come and vote about because they love the shinnies.

  • Tyson.5160Tyson.5160 Member ✭✭✭✭
    We need both easy and hard modes

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Blaeys.3102 said:
    The OP went to great length to define what was meant by the question - and the question itself was worded in a way that was far less biased than the example you give above - which, again, is not how the question was asked at all.

    I'm willing to bet that the vast majority didn't even read what the OP posted and instead answered based on the simple question: "should we make things easier?" It's not even hard to know this based simply on the responses we got afterwards. Then they went to their guild mates to come vote on this thread. It's a real no brainer when there is a question about making things easier that players will come and vote about because they love the shinnies.

    When you break it down, 26% are happy with Raids currently. The other 74% are wanting change to Raids of various degrees, easy mode, more hard mode, a different solution, which you yourself voted on. I think the majority of us here want the same thing, change.

  • yann.1946yann.1946 Member ✭✭✭
    Raids have problems, but we need a better solution

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Tyson.5160 said:
    When you break it down, 26% are happy with Raids currently. The other 74% are wanting change to Raids of various degrees, easy mode, more hard mode, a different solution, which you yourself voted on. I think the majority of us here want the same thing, change.

    Change can mean a multitude of things and this is the part we all disagree on ;)

    On top of that is it the forum going portion more likely wanting change.

  • Tails.9372Tails.9372 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @maddoctor.2738 said:
    It should come as no surprise that people would vote for making things easier for them.

    Except, 84% for "Keep them as they are" as opposed to 4% for "Remove breakbars from game." and going by the replies it's apparent that not everyone who voted for "remove" did so because they wanted the game to be easier (and this was a poll done on general which arguably has a higher amount of "casual" players).

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭
    Raids have problems, but we need a better solution

    @Tails.9372 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:
    It should come as no surprise that people would vote for making things easier for them.

    Except, 84% for "Keep them as they are" as opposed to 4% for "Remove breakbars from game." and going by the replies it's apparent that not everyone who voted for "remove" did so because they wanted the game to be easier (and this was a poll done on general which arguably has a higher amount of "casual" players).

    Removing breakbars wouldn't give them more access to shinnies that they can't get now. With or without breakbars there will be some good souls that can break them and allow even the lazy ones to get the same loot.

  • Blaeys.3102Blaeys.3102 Member ✭✭✭
    We need both easy and hard modes

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Blaeys.3102 said:
    The OP went to great length to define what was meant by the question - and the question itself was worded in a way that was far less biased than the example you give above - which, again, is not how the question was asked at all.

    I'm willing to bet that the vast majority didn't even read what the OP posted and instead answered based on the simple question: "should we make things easier?" It's not even hard to know this based simply on the responses we got afterwards. Then they went to their guild mates to come vote on this thread. It's a real no brainer when there is a question about making things easier that players will come and vote about because they love the shinnies.

    A few posts ago, you argued that the question was "blind" or misleading in some way - but when I point out that the question was, in fact detailed and pretty thorough, your response was to change to "no one reads it anyway."

    And, even then, you still insist on paraphrasing the question to make it seem simpler or more misleading.

    The numbers are there. I know they aren't what many want to see, but there they are.

  • Tyson.5160Tyson.5160 Member ✭✭✭✭
    We need both easy and hard modes

    I mentioned this a while ago, and in another thread, but there could be a hard cap on how many raid wings there could be. Aerodrome can only fit so many entrances, until it gets into something close to Willy Wonkas Chocolate Factory.

  • Grogba.6204Grogba.6204 Member ✭✭✭
    edited October 25, 2018
    Raids are fine the way they are, combining bosses of various difficulties

    @Tyson.5160 said:
    I mentioned this a while ago, and in another thread, but there could be a hard cap on how many raid wings there could be. Aerodrome can only fit so many entrances, until it gets into something close to Willy Wonkas Chocolate Factory.

    We both know that - with the current release cadence - this outcome is still years away.

  • Tyson.5160Tyson.5160 Member ✭✭✭✭
    We need both easy and hard modes

    @Grogba.6204 said:

    @Tyson.5160 said:
    I mentioned this a while ago, and in another thread, but there could be a hard cap on how many raid wings there could be. Aerodrome can only fit so many entrances, until it gets into something close to Willy Wonkas Chocolate Factory.

    We both know that - with the current release cadence - this outcome is still years away.

    Well most likely raid wing 8 would be out in 2020 with wing 10 out in 2022, just in time for the 10 year anniversary. If they capped it at that, in theory they could add challenge modes or maybe even a random raid boss fight mode, that randomly selects the boss fights. That being said Fractals would most likely be capped and finished too.

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭
    Raids have problems, but we need a better solution

    @Tyson.5160 said:
    That being said Fractals would most likely be capped and finished too.

    No. Once we reach 100 fractals they will change the system completely. Just like Raids, Fractals have no cap.

  • Tyson.5160Tyson.5160 Member ✭✭✭✭
    We need both easy and hard modes

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Tyson.5160 said:
    That being said Fractals would most likely be capped and finished too.

    No. Once we reach 100 fractals they will change the system completely. Just like Raids, Fractals have no cap.

    I think there are only 4 fractals left until there are 25 different fractals per tier.

  • Miellyn.6847Miellyn.6847 Member ✭✭✭
    Raids are fine the way they are, combining bosses of various difficulties

    @Tyson.5160 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Tyson.5160 said:
    That being said Fractals would most likely be capped and finished too.

    No. Once we reach 100 fractals they will change the system completely. Just like Raids, Fractals have no cap.

    I think there are only 4 fractals left until there are 25 different fractals per tier.

    No, we have 18 fractals. 7 more until they have to revamp the system.

  • Tyson.5160Tyson.5160 Member ✭✭✭✭
    We need both easy and hard modes

    @Miellyn.6847 said:

    @Tyson.5160 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Tyson.5160 said:
    That being said Fractals would most likely be capped and finished too.

    No. Once we reach 100 fractals they will change the system completely. Just like Raids, Fractals have no cap.

    I think there are only 4 fractals left until there are 25 different fractals per tier.

    No, we have 18 fractals. 7 more until they have to revamp the system.

    Yeah sorry went a double checked it’s 19 we have, 6 more to go.

  • steki.1478steki.1478 Member ✭✭✭✭
    We need a hard mode, but not an easy mode

    @Tyson.5160 said:

    @Miellyn.6847 said:

    @Tyson.5160 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Tyson.5160 said:
    That being said Fractals would most likely be capped and finished too.

    No. Once we reach 100 fractals they will change the system completely. Just like Raids, Fractals have no cap.

    I think there are only 4 fractals left until there are 25 different fractals per tier.

    No, we have 18 fractals. 7 more until they have to revamp the system.

    Yeah sorry went a double checked it’s 19 we have, 6 more to go.

    So basically in 6 years.

  • Tyson.5160Tyson.5160 Member ✭✭✭✭
    We need both easy and hard modes

    @steki.1478 said:

    @Tyson.5160 said:

    @Miellyn.6847 said:

    @Tyson.5160 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Tyson.5160 said:
    That being said Fractals would most likely be capped and finished too.

    No. Once we reach 100 fractals they will change the system completely. Just like Raids, Fractals have no cap.

    I think there are only 4 fractals left until there are 25 different fractals per tier.

    No, we have 18 fractals. 7 more until they have to revamp the system.

    Yeah sorry went a double checked it’s 19 we have, 6 more to go.

    So basically in 6 years.

    I think fractals are released every other LW episode. Next episode would have Fractal 20. So we are probably looking the next 3 years or so

  • Vinceman.4572Vinceman.4572 Member ✭✭✭✭
    Raids are fine the way they are, combining bosses of various difficulties

    I doubt they'll revamp the fractal system when having 25 different ones. They'll just put some easier ones to the lower tiers, for example T1-3 (or T1-2) and harder ones to T2-4 (T3-4). It would be an easy solution.
    About raids, I don't know. I would expect another expansion but afterwards. I cannot imagine GW2 to be supported more than 10 years. Active servers and some minor fixes/changes like in GW1 but more seems unlikely to me. So, the space for raid doors in the aerodrome should be enough with the actual raid release cadence. ^^

  • Tyson.5160Tyson.5160 Member ✭✭✭✭
    We need both easy and hard modes

    @Vinceman.4572 said:
    I doubt they'll revamp the fractal system when having 25 different ones. They'll just put some easier ones to the lower tiers, for example T1-3 (or T1-2) and harder ones to T2-4 (T3-4). It would be an easy solution.
    About raids, I don't know. I would expect another expansion but afterwards. I cannot imagine GW2 to be supported more than 10 years. Active servers and some minor fixes/changes like in GW1 but more seems unlikely to me. So, the space for raid doors in the aerodrome should be enough with the actual raid release cadence. ^^

    I recall Wp had a suggestion regarding the different tiers could have different paths in the same Fractal with different bosses that could switch in the tiers. That would change up much of the Fractal system too.

  • Astralporing.1957Astralporing.1957 Member ✭✭✭✭
    We need an easy mode, but not a hard mode

    @Vinceman.4572 said:
    I doubt they'll revamp the fractal system when having 25 different ones. They'll just put some easier ones to the lower tiers, for example T1-3 (or T1-2) and harder ones to T2-4 (T3-4). It would be an easy solution.

    That would mean either none of those could be in fractal dailies, or you would lose the current system of the same daily for each tier, with higher tier also qualifying for all lower ones.
    Let's say you had aquatic in t1-3 and Observatory in t2-4 (to use already existing fractals as examples). You couldn't have t1-t4 daily set for neither, because it would be incomplete (Aquatic missing t4 daily, and Observatory missing t1 one). You could potentially have different t1 and t4 sets, but then you'd lose the current ability to have all dailies covered by doing just 3 x t4.
    So, not really an easy solution. It would be, in fact, much easier to extend each tier by a few levels (so, make them go, for example, 1-30, 31-60, 61-90, 91-120) while leaving current agony stretch from 1 to the top (so, still 150 ar at new top fractal level, and unchanged agony levels at tier tresholds).

    The whole point of a social game is to play with the people you want to play with, not be forced to play with the people you don't.

  • Tyson.5160Tyson.5160 Member ✭✭✭✭
    We need both easy and hard modes

    I think 25 different fractals is quite a lot of variety too.

  • Raids are fine the way they are, combining bosses of various difficulties

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @Sorin Noroku.5342 said:

    @Blaeys.3102 said:
    Not sure what is blind about the poll. The options seem well defined.

    Trying to argue it away with strawman fallacies (and yes, that term applies here) wont make the numbers go away.

    Problem is, a lot of players avoid the forum heavily... also, how many of those that voted actually raid?

    Forums in general have an overrepresentation of hardcore players, and in addition the poll was in dungeon forum, where that tendency is even more skewed.

    Considering the amount of people I speak with in the "hardcore players" area.. most don't touch the forums for fear of being banned for "silly" reasons. So I doubt that the "overrepresentation of hardcore players" is valid. Also, the poll was posted in the combined area iirc, dungeon/fractal/raids all share a subforum.

    Once more, the devs have said they designed these to be more difficult. Even still they are incredibly easy. I cannot tell you how many streams I’ve seen of people who are BUTCHERING their class and build, yet pass with ease. The dps checks are super light (baring dhuum/largos) and the mechanics are fairly simple. We know this by the vast amount of people learning raids in the discord training servers, and getting kills.

    And yet that "vast amount of people" is still only a very small part of the whole population. And as for dev designs, well, the raids are one of the examples showing that those can change.

    When you have a 4,000 players in a single discord of raid training, and only like, 200 players are of the highest ranks, that is a vast population for those that do the content. I'd love to suggest joining these raid training discords for anyone who wants to get into raids! They're honestly SUPER easy. In fact, a friend of mine just took a new set of 8 baby raiders, and almost cleared w6 today on their first time in. Just her as a druid, and another friend as a dps. The rest was all baby raiders.

    Granted, the population OF raiders is VERY small in comparison to open world, pvp, wvw... It's something I've been a part of discussing with other raiders for awhile. HOWEVER, the general level of raids does not need to be dropped down to assist more people getting into them, as the resources to complete and learn them are out there for the taking! As well as large groups of people for filling out the squads! So you've got the people who know it, just WAITING for someone to go "I'd like to learn it" and they'll take them. Show them the ropes, help the out, teach them the mechanics.. and they do this nearly 24/7! (Seriously, we have more postings than the lfg in RiT most days...)

  • Astralporing.1957Astralporing.1957 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 28, 2018
    We need an easy mode, but not a hard mode

    @Sorin Noroku.5342 said:

    @Astralporing.1957 said:
    Forums in general have an overrepresentation of hardcore players, and in addition the poll was in dungeon forum, where that tendency is even more skewed.

    Considering the amount of people I speak with in the "hardcore players" area.. most don't touch the forums for fear of being banned for "silly" reasons. So I doubt that the "overrepresentation of hardcore players" is valid. Also, the poll was posted in the combined area iirc, dungeon/fractal/raids all share a subforum.

    Oh yes, it's still valid. Most casuals do not in general participate in out-of-game things like forums (and even if they do, it's much more likely to be completely passive participation - reading, not posting). Many casuals are probably not even aware the forums exist.

    And while this is a subforum for more than raids, it's still populated by more hardcore (on average) players than the general subforum.

    Notice, that this holds true not only in gw2, but in any game. It is a well-known phenomenon.

    Once more, the devs have said they designed these to be more difficult. Even still they are incredibly easy. I cannot tell you how many streams I’ve seen of people who are BUTCHERING their class and build, yet pass with ease. The dps checks are super light (baring dhuum/largos) and the mechanics are fairly simple. We know this by the vast amount of people learning raids in the discord training servers, and getting kills.

    And yet that "vast amount of people" is still only a very small part of the whole population. And as for dev designs, well, the raids are one of the examples showing that those can change.

    When you have a 4,000 players in a single discord of raid training, and only like, 200 players are of the highest ranks, that is a vast population for those that do the content. I'd love to suggest joining these raid training discords for anyone who wants to get into raids! They're honestly SUPER easy. In fact, a friend of mine just took a new set of 8 baby raiders, and almost cleared w6 today on their first time in. Just her as a druid, and another friend as a dps. The rest was all baby raiders.

    Granted, the population OF raiders is VERY small in comparison to open world, pvp, wvw... It's something I've been a part of discussing with other raiders for awhile. HOWEVER, the general level of raids does not need to be dropped down to assist more people getting into them, as the resources to complete and learn them are out there for the taking! As well as large groups of people for filling out the squads! So you've got the people who know it, just WAITING for someone to go "I'd like to learn it" and they'll take them. Show them the ropes, help the out, teach them the mechanics.. and they do this nearly 24/7! (Seriously, we have more postings than the lfg in RiT most days...)

    You do realize you're not really contradicting me here, don't you. The very fact you consider 4000 people to be a vast amount speaks volumes.

    The whole point of a social game is to play with the people you want to play with, not be forced to play with the people you don't.

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 28, 2018
    Raids have problems, but we need a better solution

    @Tyson.5160 said:
    I think 25 different fractals is quite a lot of variety too.

    No it's not. You can't really talk about variety when it comes to Fractals because they weren't all released at once. By the time we play the 25th fractal, all 24 previous ones will be at least 6 months old content already, most of them way longer, some 6 year old content.

    It's like saying that we have enough "variety" in zones already, we have jungle, desert, snow, let's not add new ones.

  • Tyson.5160Tyson.5160 Member ✭✭✭✭
    We need both easy and hard modes

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Tyson.5160 said:
    I think 25 different fractals is quite a lot of variety too.

    No it's not. You can't really talk about variety when it comes to Fractals because they weren't all released at once. By the time we play the 25th fractal, all 24 previous ones will be at least 6 months old content already, most of them way longer, some 6 year old content.

    It's like saying that we have enough "variety" in zones already, we have jungle, desert, snow, let's not add new ones.

    Variety: the quality or state of being different or diverse; the absence of uniformity, sameness, or monotony.

    I thought I was stating the obvious here.

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭
    Raids have problems, but we need a better solution

    @Tyson.5160 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Tyson.5160 said:
    I think 25 different fractals is quite a lot of variety too.

    No it's not. You can't really talk about variety when it comes to Fractals because they weren't all released at once. By the time we play the 25th fractal, all 24 previous ones will be at least 6 months old content already, most of them way longer, some 6 year old content.

    It's like saying that we have enough "variety" in zones already, we have jungle, desert, snow, let's not add new ones.

    Variety: the quality or state of being different or diverse; the absence of uniformity, sameness, or monotony.

    I thought I was stating the obvious here.

    This part:

    You can't really talk about variety when it comes to Fractals because they weren't all released at once.

    Either there is a reason to talk about variety "there is quite a lot of variety, no need to add more" or why else talk about variety in the first place. Especially considering you were talking about having enough fractals and not needing anymore.

  • Tyson.5160Tyson.5160 Member ✭✭✭✭
    We need both easy and hard modes

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Tyson.5160 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Tyson.5160 said:
    I think 25 different fractals is quite a lot of variety too.

    No it's not. You can't really talk about variety when it comes to Fractals because they weren't all released at once. By the time we play the 25th fractal, all 24 previous ones will be at least 6 months old content already, most of them way longer, some 6 year old content.

    It's like saying that we have enough "variety" in zones already, we have jungle, desert, snow, let's not add new ones.

    Variety: the quality or state of being different or diverse; the absence of uniformity, sameness, or monotony.

    I thought I was stating the obvious here.

    This part:

    You can't really talk about variety when it comes to Fractals because they weren't all released at once.

    Either there is a reason to talk about variety "there is quite a lot of variety, no need to add more" or why else talk about variety in the first place. Especially considering you were talking about having enough fractals and not needing anymore.

    I suppose it depends who plays the content. To a new player that variety would exist because to them it is all released at once. It’s all in the eye of the beholder, to you, you may want a 100 different fractals, while myself, 25 is more then enough variety.

  • Sorin Noroku.5342Sorin Noroku.5342 Member ✭✭✭
    edited October 29, 2018
    Raids are fine the way they are, combining bosses of various difficulties

    @Astralporing.1957 said:
    You do realize you're not really contradicting me here, don't you. The very fact you consider 4000 people to be a vast amount speaks volumes.

    Oh, I'm aware it didn't really contradict you.. that's why I mentioned "Granted, the population OF raiders is VERY small in comparison to open world, pvp, wvw...", but even with that said, it still doesn't prove that raids need an easy mode, it just says the amount of people who sought out training for raids to start them, there's even more that are not in a server. Also, that's only ONE server, a single server. There's 5 that I'm in currently, (a lot of crossover though). That's also 4,000 in NA alone. EU has even more.

    An update on that baby raider group a friend is helping with, in a single week, they have killed every boss except w5, deimos, and xera. That said, that's people who have NEVER RAIDED, gone on to kill almost all raid bosses. That to me says that raids are easy enough to do, what about that suggests we need an easy mode? 16/22 bosses from never seen, to killed, in a week. Seems easy enough to me. What good would an easy mode do, if people who don't raid and have never raided before, can clear them like that?

    Edit: Forgot to add in, Raids are built for the people who want to push the limits of the game, the ones who WANT challenging content. It's been said all over the place, they're not for everyone. Some people just don't enjoy it. So I tend to remove those people from the equation when calculating player base.

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭
    Raids have problems, but we need a better solution

    @Tyson.5160 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Tyson.5160 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Tyson.5160 said:
    I think 25 different fractals is quite a lot of variety too.

    No it's not. You can't really talk about variety when it comes to Fractals because they weren't all released at once. By the time we play the 25th fractal, all 24 previous ones will be at least 6 months old content already, most of them way longer, some 6 year old content.

    It's like saying that we have enough "variety" in zones already, we have jungle, desert, snow, let's not add new ones.

    Variety: the quality or state of being different or diverse; the absence of uniformity, sameness, or monotony.

    I thought I was stating the obvious here.

    This part:

    You can't really talk about variety when it comes to Fractals because they weren't all released at once.

    Either there is a reason to talk about variety "there is quite a lot of variety, no need to add more" or why else talk about variety in the first place. Especially considering you were talking about having enough fractals and not needing anymore.

    I suppose it depends who plays the content. To a new player that variety would exist because to them it is all released at once. It’s all in the eye of the beholder, to you, you may want a 100 different fractals, while myself, 25 is more then enough variety.

    I don't want 100 fractals, I want them to continue releasing fractals until the game servers shut down. I'm gonna repeat this, which is your logic:

    It's like saying that we have enough "variety" in zones already, we have jungle, desert, snow, let's not add new ones.

    For a new player all the core game zones + the zones from the two expansions and the living world should be more than enough variety. Let's not release any more zones to the game because we have more than enough. Same goes to Armor skins and Weapon skins, I think there is more than enough in the game, no need to release any more skins, for a new player that's enough "variety". I wonder by this logic, what should they release for the game in the future?

  • Tyson.5160Tyson.5160 Member ✭✭✭✭
    We need both easy and hard modes

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Tyson.5160 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Tyson.5160 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Tyson.5160 said:
    I think 25 different fractals is quite a lot of variety too.

    No it's not. You can't really talk about variety when it comes to Fractals because they weren't all released at once. By the time we play the 25th fractal, all 24 previous ones will be at least 6 months old content already, most of them way longer, some 6 year old content.

    It's like saying that we have enough "variety" in zones already, we have jungle, desert, snow, let's not add new ones.

    Variety: the quality or state of being different or diverse; the absence of uniformity, sameness, or monotony.

    I thought I was stating the obvious here.

    This part:

    You can't really talk about variety when it comes to Fractals because they weren't all released at once.

    Either there is a reason to talk about variety "there is quite a lot of variety, no need to add more" or why else talk about variety in the first place. Especially considering you were talking about having enough fractals and not needing anymore.

    I suppose it depends who plays the content. To a new player that variety would exist because to them it is all released at once. It’s all in the eye of the beholder, to you, you may want a 100 different fractals, while myself, 25 is more then enough variety.

    I don't want 100 fractals, I want them to continue releasing fractals until the game servers shut down. I'm gonna repeat this, which is your logic:

    It's like saying that we have enough "variety" in zones already, we have jungle, desert, snow, let's not add new ones.

    For a new player all the core game zones + the zones from the two expansions and the living world should be more than enough variety. Let's not release any more zones to the game because we have more than enough. Same goes to Armor skins and Weapon skins, I think there is more than enough in the game, no need to release any more skins, for a new player that's enough "variety". I wonder by this logic, what should they release for the game in the future?

    Sorry, that’s not what I’m saying at all. This going the way of the straw man.

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭
    Raids have problems, but we need a better solution

    @Tyson.5160 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Tyson.5160 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Tyson.5160 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Tyson.5160 said:
    I think 25 different fractals is quite a lot of variety too.

    No it's not. You can't really talk about variety when it comes to Fractals because they weren't all released at once. By the time we play the 25th fractal, all 24 previous ones will be at least 6 months old content already, most of them way longer, some 6 year old content.

    It's like saying that we have enough "variety" in zones already, we have jungle, desert, snow, let's not add new ones.

    Variety: the quality or state of being different or diverse; the absence of uniformity, sameness, or monotony.

    I thought I was stating the obvious here.

    This part:

    You can't really talk about variety when it comes to Fractals because they weren't all released at once.

    Either there is a reason to talk about variety "there is quite a lot of variety, no need to add more" or why else talk about variety in the first place. Especially considering you were talking about having enough fractals and not needing anymore.

    I suppose it depends who plays the content. To a new player that variety would exist because to them it is all released at once. It’s all in the eye of the beholder, to you, you may want a 100 different fractals, while myself, 25 is more then enough variety.

    I don't want 100 fractals, I want them to continue releasing fractals until the game servers shut down. I'm gonna repeat this, which is your logic:

    It's like saying that we have enough "variety" in zones already, we have jungle, desert, snow, let's not add new ones.

    For a new player all the core game zones + the zones from the two expansions and the living world should be more than enough variety. Let's not release any more zones to the game because we have more than enough. Same goes to Armor skins and Weapon skins, I think there is more than enough in the game, no need to release any more skins, for a new player that's enough "variety". I wonder by this logic, what should they release for the game in the future?

    Sorry, that’s not what I’m saying at all. This going the way of the straw man.

    You are claiming that fractals can stop at 25 and your only reasoning is "variety". I'm applying your "variety" argument to the rest of the game.

  • Tyson.5160Tyson.5160 Member ✭✭✭✭
    We need both easy and hard modes

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Tyson.5160 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Tyson.5160 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Tyson.5160 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Tyson.5160 said:
    I think 25 different fractals is quite a lot of variety too.

    No it's not. You can't really talk about variety when it comes to Fractals because they weren't all released at once. By the time we play the 25th fractal, all 24 previous ones will be at least 6 months old content already, most of them way longer, some 6 year old content.

    It's like saying that we have enough "variety" in zones already, we have jungle, desert, snow, let's not add new ones.

    Variety: the quality or state of being different or diverse; the absence of uniformity, sameness, or monotony.

    I thought I was stating the obvious here.

    This part:

    You can't really talk about variety when it comes to Fractals because they weren't all released at once.

    Either there is a reason to talk about variety "there is quite a lot of variety, no need to add more" or why else talk about variety in the first place. Especially considering you were talking about having enough fractals and not needing anymore.

    I suppose it depends who plays the content. To a new player that variety would exist because to them it is all released at once. It’s all in the eye of the beholder, to you, you may want a 100 different fractals, while myself, 25 is more then enough variety.

    I don't want 100 fractals, I want them to continue releasing fractals until the game servers shut down. I'm gonna repeat this, which is your logic:

    It's like saying that we have enough "variety" in zones already, we have jungle, desert, snow, let's not add new ones.

    For a new player all the core game zones + the zones from the two expansions and the living world should be more than enough variety. Let's not release any more zones to the game because we have more than enough. Same goes to Armor skins and Weapon skins, I think there is more than enough in the game, no need to release any more skins, for a new player that's enough "variety". I wonder by this logic, what should they release for the game in the future?

    Sorry, that’s not what I’m saying at all. This going the way of the straw man.

    You are claiming that fractals can stop at 25 and your only reasoning is "variety". I'm applying your "variety" argument to the rest of the game.

    Which is not what I’m talking about.

  • Tyson.5160Tyson.5160 Member ✭✭✭✭
    We need both easy and hard modes

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @Vinceman.4572 said:
    I doubt they'll revamp the fractal system when having 25 different ones. They'll just put some easier ones to the lower tiers, for example T1-3 (or T1-2) and harder ones to T2-4 (T3-4). It would be an easy solution.

    That would mean either none of those could be in fractal dailies, or you would lose the current system of the same daily for each tier, with higher tier also qualifying for all lower ones.
    Let's say you had aquatic in t1-3 and Observatory in t2-4 (to use already existing fractals as examples). You couldn't have t1-t4 daily set for neither, because it would be incomplete (Aquatic missing t4 daily, and Observatory missing t1 one). You could potentially have different t1 and t4 sets, but then you'd lose the current ability to have all dailies covered by doing just 3 x t4.
    So, not really an easy solution. It would be, in fact, much easier to extend each tier by a few levels (so, make them go, for example, 1-30, 31-60, 61-90, 91-120) while leaving current agony stretch from 1 to the top (so, still 150 ar at new top fractal level, and unchanged agony levels at tier tresholds).

    I imagine this would be a possible solution. Wonder if the Ad Infinitium collection would get goofed up, if it went further then 100 Fractals.

  • Tyson.5160Tyson.5160 Member ✭✭✭✭
    We need both easy and hard modes

    @Sorin Noroku.5342 said:

    @Astralporing.1957 said:
    You do realize you're not really contradicting me here, don't you. The very fact you consider 4000 people to be a vast amount speaks volumes.

    Oh, I'm aware it didn't really contradict you.. that's why I mentioned "Granted, the population OF raiders is VERY small in comparison to open world, pvp, wvw...", but even with that said, it still doesn't prove that raids need an easy mode, it just says the amount of people who sought out training for raids to start them, there's even more that are not in a server. Also, that's only ONE server, a single server. There's 5 that I'm in currently, (a lot of crossover though). That's also 4,000 in NA alone. EU has even more.

    An update on that baby raider group a friend is helping with, in a single week, they have killed every boss except w5, deimos, and xera. That said, that's people who have NEVER RAIDED, gone on to kill almost all raid bosses. That to me says that raids are easy enough to do, what about that suggests we need an easy mode? 16/22 bosses from never seen, to killed, in a week. Seems easy enough to me. What good would an easy mode do, if people who don't raid and have never raided before, can clear them like that?

    Edit: Forgot to add in, Raids are built for the people who want to push the limits of the game, the ones who WANT challenging content. It's been said all over the place, they're not for everyone. Some people just don't enjoy it. So I tend to remove those people from the equation when calculating player base.

    Glad to hear your baby raid group is making great progress. 👍👍

  • We need an easy mode, but not a hard mode

    I'm clearly bad in raid for the moment even if I had some achievements. So I will talk only for the easy mode :
    In reality if we take only the easy mode, we are 57% for the easy mode. So what I propose is :

    • Do an easy mode to have the achievements/titles. (But not the achievements where we need to finish in normal/CM)
    • Animations to explain strategy/best comp to have and to help people
    • No mobs ? (I'm not sure if it's a bad or good think so I put a "?" )
    • No loots/No LI after boss
    • We don't need to have a big stuff to do the easy mode.
    • NPC to help the group to kill the boss and talk to explain strategies
    • Bonus to improve dodge/heal/damages (condi or not) if we give items or gold (or if it's our first time and if we didn't already kill the boss before)
    • In easy mode, our stuff can't be broken, it stays invincible
    • All bosses receives 2x more CC in fight
    • Put daily achievements to do the easy mode of raids. It can permise to the good players to help others and come.

    I know if ArenaNet works on a easy mode, it will be maybe long and hard, but honestly, it's normal to have enough to be kick by "NO LI" when you have a brain. Before, I was lying and finally sometimes I was better than people who have 200KP+ (and I had achievements like that xD). I'm not the best player of the world but Brain > LI. For me, the easy mode is one of the best solutions to permise a new development of raids players/raids guilds.

  • We need a hard mode, but not an easy mode

    @Killors.7526 said:

    • Do an easy mode to have the achievements/titles. (But not the achievements where we need to finish in normal/CM)

    So basically the collection stuff like reading books?

    • Animations to explain strategy/best comp to have and to help people

    Best comp will change depending on the balance. That would be way too much effort to keep up to date.

    • No mobs ? (I'm not sure if it's a bad or good think so I put a "?" )

    Mobs are part of the encounter though. You might get away with "No Evolved Slublings" or no double mage spawn on Xera.

    • No loots/No LI after boss

    Dont really care for the loot, no LI and no collection items should be a no brainer.

    • We don't need to have a big stuff to do the easy mode.

    ?

    • NPC to help the group to kill the boss and talk to explain strategies

    We have that on some encounters. Sabetha with her "Burn, Burn" before using the flamewall, Matthias tells you when someone gets sacrificed and the Reapers on Dhuum literally call out every mechanic.

    • In easy mode, our stuff can't be broken, it stays invincible

    Why should that matter? You dont have to leave the instance to repair broken armor.

    • All bosses receives 2x more CC in fight

    Eh, i guess?

    • Put daily achievements to do the easy mode of raids. It can permise to the good players to help others and come.

    I´d rather to the easy modes with a static and be done with them quickly, depending on the loot.
    I am part of a group that trains people, but i cant imagine doing this every single day.

  • Tyson.5160Tyson.5160 Member ✭✭✭✭
    We need both easy and hard modes

    I wouldn’t mind if you could collect certain things like minis from an easy mode, but things like weapons, Legendary Armor should remain in Normal. I’m kinda on the fence about ascended gear.

  • Einsof.1457Einsof.1457 Member ✭✭✭
    edited November 6, 2018
    Raids are fine the way they are, combining bosses of various difficulties

    don't we already have easy and hard mode? The current is easy and...I mean...what do you people think CMs are if not the hard mode version to raid encounters?

  • Corrderio.5028Corrderio.5028 Member ✭✭
    edited November 6, 2018

    I think it could have potential. My idea would an easier version missing specific mechanics/limited to 5 and give currency for exotic HOT/POF stat armor would be nice.

    Would help with both the lack of dungeons (a bit) and another method to obtain exotic armor with HOT/POF stats.

  • We need both easy and hard modes

    I could see an easy-mode being the equivalent of a Training mode where players can learn the raid in a more forgiving environment where the rewards are adjusted to match the level of difficulty. I think it would be useful even for raiding guilds that want to help new players learn mechanics. I can't imagine players would sit at this level for long before moving on to the more challenging version of the raid. It would also increase the number of players participating in raids who might otherwise think that raids are too difficult for them to bother with.

  • STIHL.2489STIHL.2489 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @runeblade.7514 said:
    Th> @mortrialus.3062 said:

    @runeblade.7514 said:
    I remember raiders saying that they don't want easy mode difficulty because Raids will take longer to release.

    How is that new raid going so far?

    Okay. And It's a literally fact that despite the new raid taking too long, adding easy mode would make it take even longer.

    If it takes that, then I am all for it. I've been waiting years for raids that I can play. You guys merely waited for months for a new wing.

    I call nonsense.

    It's fine if you are in favor of an easy mode but don't bring this kitten argument here.

    Lack of content has been an issue in the past in all areas of the game. It's always been very damaging. Adding debatable difficulties and thus prolonging the developement time for a niche game mode which is already on the brink of no content because YOU think it's worth it is plain idiotic.

    It's a poor argument and if you were in any way interested in this game mode not one you would make.

    There is easier and less demanding instanced content in the game. Play that instead of wishing harm to a game mode which is very obviously not for you.

    has it ever dawned on you that it remains a niche game mode because it does not have an easy mode to attract a wider audience?

    There are two kinds of Gamers, Salty, and Extra Salty.
    Ego is the Anesthesia that dullens the pain of Stupidity.

  • phs.6089phs.6089 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited November 23, 2018
    We need both easy and hard modes

    @Tyson.5160 said:
    I wouldn’t mind if you could collect certain things like minis from an easy mode, but things like weapons, Legendary Armor should remain in Normal. I’m kinda on the fence about ascended gear.

    It could be locked on ascended trinkets by shards from vendor. Not the armor, weapon. Trinkets with HoT/PoF stats. Shards might be reduced as well to like 300 per weep or something. Juts give new guys the way to learn and earn bit of gear. That is what other games do and it works.

    "There is always a lighthouse, there's always a man, there's always a city."

  • Grogba.6204Grogba.6204 Member ✭✭✭
    Raids are fine the way they are, combining bosses of various difficulties

    @STIHL.2489 said:

    has it ever dawned on you that it remains a niche game mode because it does not have an easy mode to attract a wider audience?

    has it ever dawned on you that the same is true for literally any other game mode in the game?

  • phs.6089phs.6089 Member ✭✭✭✭
    We need both easy and hard modes

    @Grogba.6204 said:

    @STIHL.2489 said:

    has it ever dawned on you that it remains a niche game mode because it does not have an easy mode to attract a wider audience?

    has it ever dawned on you that the same is true for literally any other game mode in the game?

    Not true, any other game mode has a 'training' : unranked -pvp, EBG-wvw, t1-t3 -fractals.

    "There is always a lighthouse, there's always a man, there's always a city."

  • STIHL.2489STIHL.2489 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited November 23, 2018

    @Grogba.6204 said:

    @STIHL.2489 said:

    has it ever dawned on you that it remains a niche game mode because it does not have an easy mode to attract a wider audience?

    has it ever dawned on you that the same is true for literally any other game mode in the game?

    While you have not answered my question, I will still answer yours.

    Yes.. I have, and It has dawned on me that for things like Fractals, that have tiers, that allow a wide range of players to enjoy the content at their pace and skill bracket, it works amazingly well and for things like Dungeons where they only had one difficulty for the Explorer Paths, which were originally supposed to be their "Hardcore Content".. Oh right.

    There are two kinds of Gamers, Salty, and Extra Salty.
    Ego is the Anesthesia that dullens the pain of Stupidity.

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭
    Raids are fine the way they are, combining bosses of various difficulties

    @STIHL.2489 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @runeblade.7514 said:
    Th> @mortrialus.3062 said:

    @runeblade.7514 said:
    I remember raiders saying that they don't want easy mode difficulty because Raids will take longer to release.

    How is that new raid going so far?

    Okay. And It's a literally fact that despite the new raid taking too long, adding easy mode would make it take even longer.

    If it takes that, then I am all for it. I've been waiting years for raids that I can play. You guys merely waited for months for a new wing.

    I call nonsense.

    It's fine if you are in favor of an easy mode but don't bring this kitten argument here.

    Lack of content has been an issue in the past in all areas of the game. It's always been very damaging. Adding debatable difficulties and thus prolonging the developement time for a niche game mode which is already on the brink of no content because YOU think it's worth it is plain idiotic.

    It's a poor argument and if you were in any way interested in this game mode not one you would make.

    There is easier and less demanding instanced content in the game. Play that instead of wishing harm to a game mode which is very obviously not for you.

    has it ever dawned on you that it remains a niche game mode because it does not have an easy mode to attract a wider audience?

    Hi STIHL, how nice of you to be back.

    No it hasn't since I do not believe the barrier of entry to be that high to begin with, which is supported by new players and their occasional shared stories of how they entered raids.

    I'm sure though that if I went by every unsuccessful story and the expectations and effort demonstrated in those (usually none) I might have a different view.

    Which leads me to my next point, I'm not even sure I'd want raids to become mainstream. It would require a fundamental shift in this entire games design and focus, not something I'm sure would be necessary healthy.

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