Do raids need easy/normal/hard difficulty mode? [merged] - Page 83 — Guild Wars 2 Forums

Do raids need easy/normal/hard difficulty mode? [merged]

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  • STIHL.2489STIHL.2489 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @STIHL.2489 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @runeblade.7514 said:
    Th> @mortrialus.3062 said:

    @runeblade.7514 said:
    I remember raiders saying that they don't want easy mode difficulty because Raids will take longer to release.

    How is that new raid going so far?

    Okay. And It's a literally fact that despite the new raid taking too long, adding easy mode would make it take even longer.

    If it takes that, then I am all for it. I've been waiting years for raids that I can play. You guys merely waited for months for a new wing.

    I call nonsense.

    It's fine if you are in favor of an easy mode but don't bring this kitten argument here.

    Lack of content has been an issue in the past in all areas of the game. It's always been very damaging. Adding debatable difficulties and thus prolonging the developement time for a niche game mode which is already on the brink of no content because YOU think it's worth it is plain idiotic.

    It's a poor argument and if you were in any way interested in this game mode not one you would make.

    There is easier and less demanding instanced content in the game. Play that instead of wishing harm to a game mode which is very obviously not for you.

    has it ever dawned on you that it remains a niche game mode because it does not have an easy mode to attract a wider audience?

    Hi STIHL, how nice of you to be back.

    No it hasn't since I do not believe the barrier of entry to be that high to begin with, which is supported by new players and their occasional shared stories of how they entered raids.

    I'm sure though that if I went by every unsuccessful story and the expectations and effort demonstrated in those (usually none) I might have a different view.

    Which leads me to my next point, I'm not even sure I'd want raids to become mainstream. It would require a fundamental shift in this entire games design and focus, not something I'm sure would be necessary healthy.

    I'd say it's nice to be back, but that would be a lie.. my internet went to kitten, and now, since I can't really play anything, I am posting on the forums to kill time. Don't get too used to my presence. I'm just scratching an itch with this abomination of a topic.

    Anyway.. yes.. a fundamental shift.. like how PoF was a Fundamental Shift from HoT. But lo, numbers are up, the game is doing better, and now it's just a matter of time before Anet realizes that trying to make Niche content for a small niche group of players, is not really profitable, and that the more inclusive they can make their content, the better the overall social and fiscal health of the game.

    But then again, they may never revise raids, just like they never revised dungeons, they might just scrap them and put in something else to fill the void like they put in fractals to replace dungeons..

    I mean, not being rude, and nothing personal at this point, because try as I might my apathy outweighs any real investment into feelings about this,, but they tried that catering to the Hardcore players, it just doesn't work.. and it's only going to get progressively harder for them to justify the budget for raids as time goes on when other content and demographics are what is making the money.

    You really should have thought about it.. especially in lieu of the rebound after PoF, and realizing that the HoT Content direction, was a failure.

    There are two kinds of Gamers, Salty, and Extra Salty.
    Ego is the Anesthesia that dullens the pain of Stupidity.

  • sigur.9453sigur.9453 Member ✭✭✭
    Raids are fine the way they are, combining bosses of various difficulties

    @STIHL.2489 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @STIHL.2489 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @runeblade.7514 said:
    Th> @mortrialus.3062 said:

    @runeblade.7514 said:
    I remember raiders saying that they don't want easy mode difficulty because Raids will take longer to release.

    How is that new raid going so far?

    Okay. And It's a literally fact that despite the new raid taking too long, adding easy mode would make it take even longer.

    If it takes that, then I am all for it. I've been waiting years for raids that I can play. You guys merely waited for months for a new wing.

    I call nonsense.

    It's fine if you are in favor of an easy mode but don't bring this kitten argument here.

    Lack of content has been an issue in the past in all areas of the game. It's always been very damaging. Adding debatable difficulties and thus prolonging the developement time for a niche game mode which is already on the brink of no content because YOU think it's worth it is plain idiotic.

    It's a poor argument and if you were in any way interested in this game mode not one you would make.

    There is easier and less demanding instanced content in the game. Play that instead of wishing harm to a game mode which is very obviously not for you.

    has it ever dawned on you that it remains a niche game mode because it does not have an easy mode to attract a wider audience?

    Hi STIHL, how nice of you to be back.

    No it hasn't since I do not believe the barrier of entry to be that high to begin with, which is supported by new players and their occasional shared stories of how they entered raids.

    I'm sure though that if I went by every unsuccessful story and the expectations and effort demonstrated in those (usually none) I might have a different view.

    Which leads me to my next point, I'm not even sure I'd want raids to become mainstream. It would require a fundamental shift in this entire games design and focus, not something I'm sure would be necessary healthy.

    I'd say it's nice to be back, but that would be a lie.. my internet went to kitten, and now, since I can't really play anything, I am posting on the forums to kill time. Don't get too used to my presence. I'm just scratching an itch with this abomination of a topic.

    Anyway.. yes.. a fundamental shift.. like how PoF was a Fundamental Shift from HoT. But lo, numbers are up, the game is doing better, and now it's just a matter of time before Anet realizes that trying to make Niche content for a small niche group of players, is not really profitable, and that the more inclusive they can make their content, the better the overall social and fiscal health of the game.

    But then again, they may never revise raids, just like they never revised dungeons, they might just scrap them and put in something else to fill the void like they put in fractals to replace dungeons..

    I mean, not being rude, and nothing personal at this point, because try as I might my apathy outweighs any real investment into feelings about this,, but they tried that catering to the Hardcore players, it just doesn't work.. and it's only going to get progressively harder for them to justify the budget for raids as time goes on when other content and demographics are what is making the money.

    You really should have thought about it.. especially in lieu of the rebound after PoF, and realizing that the HoT Content direction, was a failure.

    I hope your internet gets fixed soon!

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited November 23, 2018
    Raids are fine the way they are, combining bosses of various difficulties

    @STIHL.2489 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @STIHL.2489 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @runeblade.7514 said:
    Th> @mortrialus.3062 said:

    @runeblade.7514 said:
    I remember raiders saying that they don't want easy mode difficulty because Raids will take longer to release.

    How is that new raid going so far?

    Okay. And It's a literally fact that despite the new raid taking too long, adding easy mode would make it take even longer.

    If it takes that, then I am all for it. I've been waiting years for raids that I can play. You guys merely waited for months for a new wing.

    I call nonsense.

    It's fine if you are in favor of an easy mode but don't bring this kitten argument here.

    Lack of content has been an issue in the past in all areas of the game. It's always been very damaging. Adding debatable difficulties and thus prolonging the developement time for a niche game mode which is already on the brink of no content because YOU think it's worth it is plain idiotic.

    It's a poor argument and if you were in any way interested in this game mode not one you would make.

    There is easier and less demanding instanced content in the game. Play that instead of wishing harm to a game mode which is very obviously not for you.

    has it ever dawned on you that it remains a niche game mode because it does not have an easy mode to attract a wider audience?

    Hi STIHL, how nice of you to be back.

    No it hasn't since I do not believe the barrier of entry to be that high to begin with, which is supported by new players and their occasional shared stories of how they entered raids.

    I'm sure though that if I went by every unsuccessful story and the expectations and effort demonstrated in those (usually none) I might have a different view.

    Which leads me to my next point, I'm not even sure I'd want raids to become mainstream. It would require a fundamental shift in this entire games design and focus, not something I'm sure would be necessary healthy.

    I'd say it's nice to be back, but that would be a lie.. my internet went to kitten, and now, since I can't really play anything, I am posting on the forums to kill time. Don't get too used to my presence. I'm just scratching an itch with this abomination of a topic.

    Anyway.. yes.. a fundamental shift.. like how PoF was a Fundamental Shift from HoT. But lo, numbers are up, the game is doing better, and now it's just a matter of time before Anet realizes that trying to make Niche content for a small niche group of players, is not really profitable, and that the more inclusive they can make their content, the better the overall social and fiscal health of the game.

    Are we ignoring the:

    • introduction of mounts
    • way heavier and increasing monetization game wide
    • the spillover from competitors where the last expansions pretty much tanked?
    • the empty PoF maps and metas (compared to HoT)?
    • the huge gap in raid and fractal release times
    • the improvement in living world content delivery after the expansion (versus HoT long hiatus post expansion)

    There is a ton of reasons as to why the game is in a better place. Many and/or almost all of them have hardly to do with raids.

    @STIHL.2489 said:
    But then again, they may never revise raids, just like they never revised dungeons, they might just scrap them and put in something else to fill the void like they put in fractals to replace dungeons..

    I mean, not being rude, and nothing personal at this point, because try as I might my apathy outweighs any real investment into feelings about this,, but they tried that catering to the Hardcore players, it just doesn't work.. and it's only going to get progressively harder for them to justify the budget for raids as time goes on when other content and demographics are what is making the money.

    You really should have thought about it.. especially in lieu of the rebound after PoF, and realizing that the HoT Content direction, was a failure.

    Sure, and if cost for this content outweighs its benefits I'm sure it will get cut. Right after spvp and wvw have been removed from the game and maybe even some Living World episodes given the completion rate and play time on many of those things.

    None of these issues are a strong argument to add easy mode raids and even less to shift the game to a more raid centric design.

  • STIHL.2489STIHL.2489 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @STIHL.2489 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @STIHL.2489 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @runeblade.7514 said:
    Th> @mortrialus.3062 said:

    @runeblade.7514 said:
    I remember raiders saying that they don't want easy mode difficulty because Raids will take longer to release.

    How is that new raid going so far?

    Okay. And It's a literally fact that despite the new raid taking too long, adding easy mode would make it take even longer.

    If it takes that, then I am all for it. I've been waiting years for raids that I can play. You guys merely waited for months for a new wing.

    I call nonsense.

    It's fine if you are in favor of an easy mode but don't bring this kitten argument here.

    Lack of content has been an issue in the past in all areas of the game. It's always been very damaging. Adding debatable difficulties and thus prolonging the developement time for a niche game mode which is already on the brink of no content because YOU think it's worth it is plain idiotic.

    It's a poor argument and if you were in any way interested in this game mode not one you would make.

    There is easier and less demanding instanced content in the game. Play that instead of wishing harm to a game mode which is very obviously not for you.

    has it ever dawned on you that it remains a niche game mode because it does not have an easy mode to attract a wider audience?

    Hi STIHL, how nice of you to be back.

    No it hasn't since I do not believe the barrier of entry to be that high to begin with, which is supported by new players and their occasional shared stories of how they entered raids.

    I'm sure though that if I went by every unsuccessful story and the expectations and effort demonstrated in those (usually none) I might have a different view.

    Which leads me to my next point, I'm not even sure I'd want raids to become mainstream. It would require a fundamental shift in this entire games design and focus, not something I'm sure would be necessary healthy.

    I'd say it's nice to be back, but that would be a lie.. my internet went to kitten, and now, since I can't really play anything, I am posting on the forums to kill time. Don't get too used to my presence. I'm just scratching an itch with this abomination of a topic.

    Anyway.. yes.. a fundamental shift.. like how PoF was a Fundamental Shift from HoT. But lo, numbers are up, the game is doing better, and now it's just a matter of time before Anet realizes that trying to make Niche content for a small niche group of players, is not really profitable, and that the more inclusive they can make their content, the better the overall social and fiscal health of the game.

    There is a ton of reasons as to why the game is in a better place. Many and/or almost all of them have hardly to do with raids.

    When I brought up that the fiscal reports were down after HoT, for a full year, until the Hype regarding PoF, came out, your niche group said something along the lines of The game is getting older this just happens trying to dismiss the downward trend, now, using that as a metric, and I'm really not being rude here, but, if I was looking for viable insight as to why this game was doing better or worse each quarter,, your niche group would not be on my list.

    @STIHL.2489 said:
    But then again, they may never revise raids, just like they never revised dungeons, they might just scrap them and put in something else to fill the void like they put in fractals to replace dungeons..
    it's only going to get progressively harder for them to justify the budget for raids as time goes on when other content and demographics are what is making the money.

    Sure, and if cost for this content outweighs its benefits I'm sure it will get cut. Right after spvp and wvw have been removed from the game and maybe even some Living World episodes given the completion rate and play time on many of those things.

    You really think they would cut WvW which has gotten a grand total of 1 new map in 6 years, before they would cut raid production which requires entire new mechanics, mobs, loot systems, graphics, and testing and I might add, more testing.. Well.. again. no diss, but I think you are confused on what "Cost for Content" actually means.

    There are two kinds of Gamers, Salty, and Extra Salty.
    Ego is the Anesthesia that dullens the pain of Stupidity.

  • Astralporing.1957Astralporing.1957 Member ✭✭✭✭
    We need an easy mode, but not a hard mode

    @Cyninja.2954 said:
    There is a ton of reasons as to why the game is in a better place. Many and/or almost all of them have hardly to do with raids.

    Isn't that the very point? If the game is indeed in a better place, it's not thanks to raids at all.

    The whole point of a social game is to play with the people you want to play with, not be forced to play with the people you don't.

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭
    Raids are fine the way they are, combining bosses of various difficulties

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:
    There is a ton of reasons as to why the game is in a better place. Many and/or almost all of them have hardly to do with raids.

    Isn't that the very point? If the game is indeed in a better place, it's not thanks to raids at all.

    Sure, and how is this a reason to add or change raids?

    I'm not arguing against the fact that they are niche content for few players developed by a very small team.

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭
    Raids have problems, but we need a better solution

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:
    There is a ton of reasons as to why the game is in a better place. Many and/or almost all of them have hardly to do with raids.

    Isn't that the very point? If the game is indeed in a better place, it's not thanks to raids at all.

    It's more likely due to more aggressive monetization than anything else. Plus mount skins, those apparently are a real money earner.

  • Grogba.6204Grogba.6204 Member ✭✭✭
    Raids are fine the way they are, combining bosses of various difficulties

    There is also Elona, the biggest fanservice besides Cantha for GW1 veterans and new players alike and nine much better balanced (depending on the gamemode that is) Elite Specs than those from HoT. :shrug:

  • Astralporing.1957Astralporing.1957 Member ✭✭✭✭
    We need an easy mode, but not a hard mode

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:
    There is a ton of reasons as to why the game is in a better place. Many and/or almost all of them have hardly to do with raids.

    Isn't that the very point? If the game is indeed in a better place, it's not thanks to raids at all.

    Sure, and how is this a reason to add or change raids?

    It isn't. It may however be a reason for devs to drop their development unless they are changed somehow to make them more popular.

    The whole point of a social game is to play with the people you want to play with, not be forced to play with the people you don't.

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭
    Raids have problems, but we need a better solution

    @Nokaru.7831 said:
    There's many financial reasons to keep raids going.

    I can add one more important reason to keep raids going, that unlike almost any other type of content in the game, Raiders are gonna buy the next expansions if they contain Raids, because fundamentally the Heart of Thorns Raids are the same as Path of Fire Raids, and moving forward future Raids will also be like them. The original 3 wings do not have a CM version for their fights, so I guess Wing 4 introduced something new (CM) and they've been a success, given how all future Raid bosses have CM versions.

    Meanwhile, open world maps aren't the same, there is a vast difference between Heart of Thorns open world maps and Path of Fire open world maps, some of their parts attract different kinds of players. For example, those that like big map wide meta events, compared to huge maps to explore on their mounts. I think Raiders are much easier to please than the open world crowd, which is more diverse and has vastly different desires, often conflicting ones.

  • zinkz.7045zinkz.7045 Member ✭✭✭
    edited November 24, 2018

    A game where groups of 4-6 have beaten many raid bosses, where a guy even soloed a couple and where groups do things like 10 of the same class raids would suggest they are already ezmode.

  • STIHL.2489STIHL.2489 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @STIHL.2489 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @STIHL.2489 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @STIHL.2489 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @runeblade.7514 said:
    Th> @mortrialus.3062 said:

    @runeblade.7514 said:
    I remember raiders saying that they don't want easy mode difficulty because Raids will take longer to release.

    How is that new raid going so far?

    Okay. And It's a literally fact that despite the new raid taking too long, adding easy mode would make it take even longer.

    If it takes that, then I am all for it. I've been waiting years for raids that I can play. You guys merely waited for months for a new wing.

    I call nonsense.

    It's fine if you are in favor of an easy mode but don't bring this kitten argument here.

    Lack of content has been an issue in the past in all areas of the game. It's always been very damaging. Adding debatable difficulties and thus prolonging the developement time for a niche game mode which is already on the brink of no content because YOU think it's worth it is plain idiotic.

    It's a poor argument and if you were in any way interested in this game mode not one you would make.

    There is easier and less demanding instanced content in the game. Play that instead of wishing harm to a game mode which is very obviously not for you.

    has it ever dawned on you that it remains a niche game mode because it does not have an easy mode to attract a wider audience?

    Hi STIHL, how nice of you to be back.

    No it hasn't since I do not believe the barrier of entry to be that high to begin with, which is supported by new players and their occasional shared stories of how they entered raids.

    I'm sure though that if I went by every unsuccessful story and the expectations and effort demonstrated in those (usually none) I might have a different view.

    Which leads me to my next point, I'm not even sure I'd want raids to become mainstream. It would require a fundamental shift in this entire games design and focus, not something I'm sure would be necessary healthy.

    I'd say it's nice to be back, but that would be a lie.. my internet went to kitten, and now, since I can't really play anything, I am posting on the forums to kill time. Don't get too used to my presence. I'm just scratching an itch with this abomination of a topic.

    Anyway.. yes.. a fundamental shift.. like how PoF was a Fundamental Shift from HoT. But lo, numbers are up, the game is doing better, and now it's just a matter of time before Anet realizes that trying to make Niche content for a small niche group of players, is not really profitable, and that the more inclusive they can make their content, the better the overall social and fiscal health of the game.

    There is a ton of reasons as to why the game is in a better place. Many and/or almost all of them have hardly to do with raids.

    When I brought up that the fiscal reports were down after HoT, for a full year, until the Hype regarding PoF, came out, your niche group said something along the lines of The game is getting older this just happens trying to dismiss the downward trend, now, using that as a metric, and I'm really not being rude here, but, if I was looking for viable insight as to why this game was doing better or worse each quarter,, your niche group would not be on my list.

    STIHL, you have been arguing the games demise ever since you joined the forums.

    No I haven't .. and I would like it if you could refrain from lying about me.

    There are two kinds of Gamers, Salty, and Extra Salty.
    Ego is the Anesthesia that dullens the pain of Stupidity.

  • STIHL.2489STIHL.2489 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited November 25, 2018

    @Nokaru.7831 said:
    If you're really going to go on about what is truly economical, MMOs in general are a massive risk compared to the mobile market. You'd make way more money training 15 designers to product mobile games rather than having them craft any aspect of this MMO.

    Funny you say this.. I have since abandoned this game for a phone game.. how ironic.

    Wonder how many others on here have also long since left the game, raiders included, as over half the people that used to send me hate mail about my stance against raids in game admitted they no longer play.

    So.. yah.. keep dreaming that Raids are profitable.

    There are two kinds of Gamers, Salty, and Extra Salty.
    Ego is the Anesthesia that dullens the pain of Stupidity.

  • Tyson.5160Tyson.5160 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited November 25, 2018
    We need both easy and hard modes

    I mean, I think one of the big money makers are the mount skins.

    Speaking of the Dhuum throne, I was sitting in the PvP Lobby and saw the comparison of Dhuum’s throne to the new Awakened throne. Which is quite disappointing. One you get by raiding or getting by buying from the trading post. The other is bought with gems or RNG.

  • phs.6089phs.6089 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited November 25, 2018
    We need both easy and hard modes

    I already talked about a thing a game I used to play handled things to avoid development of new difficulty for raids and making it easier for everyone to go see the content and make their mind if they want to play it.
    They added Reviving Buff for first 5 clears, it cost some coins to use revives in instances and was limited to 3 per run, instances had 3 bosses there.
    Today buying my fractal portions it hit me. I feel kinda slow, lol.
    What if Arena.NET introduce such a self reviving portions that can be obtained for first 5 runs only? Sold by merchant lets say **
    **Maybe they can go as far as making Defencive/Mobility/Damage portions as well for first 5 runs?

    To avoid abuse of the Reviving it can be 1 Rev per boss, so people wont go facetank easy encounters ignoring rest and making sure they still have 'Rev Power' for the raid.

    Va'esse deireádh aep eigean, va'esse eigh faidh'ar

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭
    Raids have problems, but we need a better solution

    @phs.6089 said:
    **What if Arena.NET introduce such a self reviving portions that can be obtained for first 5 runs only? Sold by merchant lets say **

    How is that going to help anyone find a group for Raids?
    How is that going to help a Raid group that's missing players find players to join them?
    What counts as a "run"?

  • phs.6089phs.6089 Member ✭✭✭✭
    We need both easy and hard modes

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @phs.6089 said:
    **What if Arena.NET introduce such a self reviving portions that can be obtained for first 5 runs only? Sold by merchant lets say **

    How is that going to help anyone find a group for Raids?
    How is that going to help a Raid group that's missing players find players to join them?
    What counts as a "run"?

    It's going to help with people giving raids a try and learning mech.
    Run is full clear.

    Va'esse deireádh aep eigean, va'esse eigh faidh'ar

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭
    Raids have problems, but we need a better solution

    @phs.6089 said:
    It's going to help with people giving raids a try and learning mech.
    Run is full clear.

    You haven't answered how a once per boss auto revive will help people find groups for Raids. You need a group anyway in order to try and learn the mechanics. Unless this potion will allow you to solo the Raid Wings, how exactly is having it going to help anyone learn mechanics?

    Full clear of what? A specific wing only? Or all wings? So I can for example farm the first boss using these new potions forever, if I don't kill the last boss of a Wing?

  • phs.6089phs.6089 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited November 25, 2018
    We need both easy and hard modes

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @phs.6089 said:
    It's going to help with people giving raids a try and learning mech.
    Run is full clear.

    You haven't answered how a once per boss auto revive will help people find groups for Raids. You need a group anyway in order to try and learn the mechanics. Unless this potion will allow you to solo the Raid Wings, how exactly is having it going to help anyone learn mechanics?

    Full clear of what? A specific wing only? Or all wings? So I can for example farm the first boss using these new potions forever, if I don't kill the last boss of a Wing?

    Reviving will give you room for mistake while you learn. Game I was playing was seasonal, meaning every 4-6 mounts we will get 2-3 new dungeons to learn.
    Getting there with those reviving buffs was big help.
    No, you can't, you only get reviving for first 5 kills of a boss(1 rev per boss, you killed easy boss 5 times with rev or without even using then, that is it). After that game assumes you have learned enough to go do it without any help.

    Va'esse deireádh aep eigean, va'esse eigh faidh'ar

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭
    Raids have problems, but we need a better solution

    @phs.6089 said:
    Reviving will give you room for mistake while you learn.

    You still haven't answered how with these revives you will JOIN a group in the first place... In order to use these revives you must first join a group. How is this revive system going to help with joining groups? Do you think groups will see your buff and say "hey this guy has an extra revive, so let's take them for a ride" or that groups will see the buff and instantly kick the person that has it, as it's clear proof that they have no experience with the fight. And training groups work now without the buff so I'm not sure what's the aim here.

    No, you can't, you only get reviving for first 5 kills of a boss(1 rev per boss, you killed easy boss 5 times with rev or without even using then, that is it). After that game assumes you have learned enough to go do it without any help.

    So in other words if I fight Vale Guardian, kill it, then wipe at Gorseval and repeat 5 times (5 different days), I will be all out of revives when I finally beat Gorseval and then reach Sabetha.

  • phs.6089phs.6089 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited November 25, 2018
    We need both easy and hard modes

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @phs.6089 said:
    Reviving will give you room for mistake while you learn.

    You still haven't answered how with these revives you will JOIN a group in the first place... In order to use these revives you must first join a group. How is this revive system going to help with joining groups? Do you think groups will see your buff and say "hey this guy has an extra revive, so let's take them for a ride" or that groups will see the buff and instantly kick the person that has it, as it's clear proof that they have no experience with the fight. And training groups work now without the buff so I'm not sure what's the aim here.

    No, you can't, you only get reviving for first 5 kills of a boss(1 rev per boss, you killed easy boss 5 times with rev or without even using then, that is it). After that game assumes you have learned enough to go do it without any help.

    So in other words if I fight Vale Guardian, kill it, then wipe at Gorseval and repeat 5 times (5 different days), I will be all out of revives when I finally beat Gorseval and then reach Sabetha.

    That is obvious, join in LFG for training runs (with Rev) pots+food.
    No you have 1 rev per boss, per pull given you want to spend gold on it, you can use it if need or not, it will not transfer to the next boss.
    1 pull=1 rev, per boss, you wipe, you need to buy it again for second attempt. You can't use 2 on one pull. You can't transfer unused to next.
    Buy the time you are on Sabheta you will have 1 rev, per pull up until you get 5 kills. You give up after VG and try next week, you will have 4 kills on VG left.

    Va'esse deireádh aep eigean, va'esse eigh faidh'ar

  • Tyson.5160Tyson.5160 Member ✭✭✭✭
    We need both easy and hard modes

    Your better off with what WoW has currently. The more you wipe, the more of a damage buff and damage reduction you get. If Anet gives a reason to go back into these raids at easier settings, you could possibly see people not use the buff at all the more they improve.

  • mortrialus.3062mortrialus.3062 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited November 30, 2018
    Raids are fine the way they are, combining bosses of various difficulties

    @STIHL.2489 said:

    @Nokaru.7831 said:
    If you're really going to go on about what is truly economical, MMOs in general are a massive risk compared to the mobile market. You'd make way more money training 15 designers to product mobile games rather than having them craft any aspect of this MMO.

    Funny you say this.. I have since abandoned this game for a phone game.. how ironic.

    Wonder how many others on here have also long since left the game, raiders included, as over half the people that used to send me hate mail about my stance against raids in game admitted they no longer play.

    So.. yah.. keep dreaming that Raids are profitable.

    Anet stopped having PvP tournaments with cash prizes real quick when it was clear PvP wasn't getting the traction to justify the investment.

    If raids weren't meeting population expectations based on how much it costs to develop them they would have already dropped them by now. Heck developers have straight up said that the size of the raiding community surpassed their expectations.

    Also having content that incentives grroups of people to organize into static groups so they can clear content reliably and with good company is good for player retention. That's how you make friends and build communities in MMORPGs.

    Heck if you're talking profit, then literally nothing in game should be developed aside from gem store mount akins. Nothing in a free to play game is "profitable " on it's own.

    Also lol at the idea that legions of people are sending you hate mail in game. If anyone actually thinks this is true I have a bridge to sell you.

    The Psychomancer: Mesmer Elite Specialization Suggestion

  • mortrialus.3062mortrialus.3062 Member ✭✭✭✭
    Raids are fine the way they are, combining bosses of various difficulties

    @Tyson.5160 said:
    Your better off with what WoW has currently. The more you wipe, the more of a damage buff and damage reduction you get. If Anet gives a reason to go back into these raids at easier settings, you could possibly see people not use the buff at all the more they improve.

    That's what WoW has devolved into? What an embarrassment.

    The Psychomancer: Mesmer Elite Specialization Suggestion

  • Tyson.5160Tyson.5160 Member ✭✭✭✭
    We need both easy and hard modes

    @mortrialus.3062 said:

    @Tyson.5160 said:
    Your better off with what WoW has currently. The more you wipe, the more of a damage buff and damage reduction you get. If Anet gives a reason to go back into these raids at easier settings, you could possibly see people not use the buff at all the more they improve.

    That's what WoW has devolved into? What an embarrassment.

    Yeah it’s a part of the LFR system. Here is the wiki as a reference.

    https://wow.gamepedia.com/Determination

  • STIHL.2489STIHL.2489 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @mortrialus.3062 said:

    @STIHL.2489 said:

    @Nokaru.7831 said:
    If you're really going to go on about what is truly economical, MMOs in general are a massive risk compared to the mobile market. You'd make way more money training 15 designers to product mobile games rather than having them craft any aspect of this MMO.

    Funny you say this.. I have since abandoned this game for a phone game.. how ironic.

    Wonder how many others on here have also long since left the game, raiders included, as over half the people that used to send me hate mail about my stance against raids in game admitted they no longer play.

    So.. yah.. keep dreaming that Raids are profitable.

    Anet stopped having PvP tournaments with cash prizes real quick when it was clear PvP wasn't getting the traction to justify the investment.

    If raids weren't meeting population expectations based on how much it costs to develop them they would have already dropped them by now.

    Unlike the ESport venture they tried with sPvP, which they could directly see both the internal player investment, and outside interest/influence, the other parts of the game are funded basically by a crowed funded system where people buy stuff from the store and they use that to fund the game. Hence why regardless that their ESport venture failing hard, sPvP is not only still around, it is getting updates.

    Heck if you're talking profit, then literally nothing in game should be developed aside from gem store mount akins. Nothing in a free to play game is "profitable " on it's own.

    No, see, this is where you are flat out wrong.

    In fact, you could not be more off your mark if you tried. You used Mounts, but glider skins were also a big sale item, as you can look around and see that almost everyone you meet has a custom one , I could go on about Inventory space, Dyes, Weapon Skins (which are very popular), those mini-pet things that almost everyone has, which are both store and game items.. there are a slew of items they sell that have been keeping this game going for years before mount skins came around..

    Raids on the other hand, are not profitable at all, as there is not a single thing about them to market in the store, or to the people that do them.

    Also lol at the idea that legions of people are sending you hate mail in game. If anyone actually thinks this is true I have a bridge to sell you.

    Please refrain from the personal insults and taking about something you know nothing about, as unless you have access to my account directly, you have zero idea how much hate mail I got, and if you paid any attention to these forums, every regular in this topic knows of me far more then they know of you.

    There are two kinds of Gamers, Salty, and Extra Salty.
    Ego is the Anesthesia that dullens the pain of Stupidity.

  • Vinceman.4572Vinceman.4572 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited November 30, 2018
    Raids are fine the way they are, combining bosses of various difficulties

    @STIHL.2489 said:
    Raids on the other hand, are not profitable at all, as there is not a single thing about them to market in the store, or to the people that do them.

    Go have a look at raid squads during Xera, before Cairn & Deimos fights, in W5 or W6. People are fully geared with different gliders and mount skins. Those people are also spending gems & money to Anet (or: NCSoft) and they are playing raids. You don't want to deny that these players have their rights to exist in the game as well as they are a part of the income, do you? Everyone in my raid guilds has spent money to the game. Some more, some less like everywhere else. We have fun in the game and we would have long gone if the game hasn't offered raids to us. LS is a minor point to us and not only to us because it's 2 weeks of playing and then wastelands for the majority of the player base and the fractal release rate is way too long to keep a lot of dedicated players in the game. Not to speak about dungeons which are not released & supported since years. When I see Anet making a good update for example bringing back the crown pavillion I'm more willing to buy gems via credit card same with raids. If raids didn't exist Anet I would have stopped playing years ago and given my money to others.
    I believe you really underestimate the positive impact of long-term content in an MMO. And raids belong to that said content, people play them for years and stay in the game due to that completely on the contrary to maps like Draconis Mons from the LS3. And, finally, we don't need to forget: Raids are niche content. GW2 is in a very good shape and the development of raids would have been already stopped if business people at Anet/NCSoft had the opinion that raids are not profitable. I don't believe they would ride a dead horse for years. That would be insane from a serious business view.

  • STIHL.2489STIHL.2489 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Vinceman.4572 said:

    @STIHL.2489 said:
    Raids on the other hand, are not profitable at all, as there is not a single thing about them to market in the store, or to the people that do them.

    Go have a look at raid squads during Xera, before Cairn & Deimos fights, in W5 or W6. People are fully geared with different gliders and mount skins. Those people are also spending gems & money to Anet (or: NCSoft) and they are playing raids. You don't want to deny that these players have their rights to exist in the game as well as they are a part of the income, do you? Everyone in my raid guilds has spent money to the game.

    You would have bought that with or without raids being in the game.. come off it.

    I don't believe they would ride a dead horse for years. That would be insane from a serious business view.

    LOL.. I see you never heard of the NGE, if you really think an MMO would not cling to a mistake.

    There are two kinds of Gamers, Salty, and Extra Salty.
    Ego is the Anesthesia that dullens the pain of Stupidity.

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited November 30, 2018
    Raids have problems, but we need a better solution

    @STIHL.2489 said:
    Raids on the other hand, are not profitable at all, as there is not a single thing about them to market in the store, or to the people that do them.

    Raids mean expansion sales just to access them. They are the perfect market tool for expansion and those that like Raids are by default expansion customers, provided there is continued raid development. Meanwhile, the casual players can really dislike what expansions bring to the game, "Omg I read Heart of Thorns is so hard, I'm not buying", they can find a million things that will prevent them from purchasing an expansion.

    Also, there is NOT a single thing about WVW, PVP or Fractals to monetize on the market, in fact, unlike Raids, you don't even need expansions to play those, you can play as a FREE player and never pay anything to Arenent and enjoy those three modes. Sure, in Fractals you will be missing some of the rewards, and in PVP/WVW you will have a hard time without elite specs, but at least in WVW you can hide in your blob (plus nobody can kick you) and have no trouble playing.

    The argument that Raids aren't profitable is weak, when there is Fractals, PVP and WVW that are even less profitable than Raids (maybe that's why they get so little dev attention?). As long as those three exist, raids will continue to exist.

  • mortrialus.3062mortrialus.3062 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited November 30, 2018
    Raids are fine the way they are, combining bosses of various difficulties

    @STIHL.2489 said:

    @mortrialus.3062 said:

    @STIHL.2489 said:

    @Nokaru.7831 said:
    If you're really going to go on about what is truly economical, MMOs in general are a massive risk compared to the mobile market. You'd make way more money training 15 designers to product mobile games rather than having them craft any aspect of this MMO.

    Funny you say this.. I have since abandoned this game for a phone game.. how ironic.

    Wonder how many others on here have also long since left the game, raiders included, as over half the people that used to send me hate mail about my stance against raids in game admitted they no longer play.

    So.. yah.. keep dreaming that Raids are profitable.

    Anet stopped having PvP tournaments with cash prizes real quick when it was clear PvP wasn't getting the traction to justify the investment.

    If raids weren't meeting population expectations based on how much it costs to develop them they would have already dropped them by now.

    Unlike the ESport venture they tried with sPvP, which they could directly see both the internal player investment, and outside interest/influence, the other parts of the game are funded basically by a crowed funded system where people buy stuff from the store and they use that to fund the game. Hence why regardless that their ESport venture failing hard, sPvP is not only still around, it is getting updates.

    Anet has perfectly accurate information on how many people have either tried raiding and failed, tried raiding for a bit and retired, and raid every week.

    Last time we received information, there were 13 people working on raids. This 13 person group was absorbed into the larger Systems Team, but it's likely still the same number of people or at least close to it working on raids. That's literally 3.25% of the total 400+ number of Arenanet developers. According to gw2efficiency 7% of players have at least cleared the first boss of the newest raid wing. 5% have cleared Largos Twins and 4.1% have killed Qadim. 6.5% of players have killed Dhuum. That's not even including other, easier raid wings where 30% of GW2Effiency accounts have killed Vale Guardian. 3.25% of the development team making content 30% of the community has experienced as a side attraction is a hell of a lot of bang for your buck. The money put into those 13 people's salaries is reaching a far higher percentage of players than the resources being put into them by literally any measure. And the percentage of people killing Qadim is only going to go up and up as time moves on. For the proportion of developers put in to developing raids and the percentage of players enjoying them, they are more than pulling their weight.

    Heck if you're talking profit, then literally nothing in game should be developed aside from gem store mount akins. Nothing in a free to play game is "profitable " on it's own.

    No, see, this is where you are flat out wrong.

    In fact, you could not be more off your mark if you tried. You used Mounts, but glider skins were also a big sale item, as you can look around and see that almost everyone you meet has a custom one , I could go on about Inventory space, Dyes, Weapon Skins (which are very popular), those mini-pet things that almost everyone has, which are both store and game items.. there are a slew of items they sell that have been keeping this game going for years before mount skins came around..
    Raids on the other hand, are not profitable at all, as there is not a single thing about them to market in the store, or to the people that do them.

    My point was that mount skins are the big, big money maker right now. Not Living World. Not World Boss Meta Events. Not raids. Not PvP. Not WvW. I doubt people are buying Living Story chapters in huge bank breaking quantities, or revive orbs. Everyone wants the mount skins. I can't even remember the last time i saw the classic raptor skin everyone has customized mounts and yes gliders too. But the game is not "Buy Mount Skins Online." There's a lot more to a game than the hard binary "What aspects are profitable and what are not." You need to think about player retention. You need to think about developing in game communities. You need to think about what is exciting to people on the outside looking in. And yeah, content that requires other players and is difficult enough to make you want to find good players who can do it consistently is really good not just for retaining those players who are now raiding every week, but also for forming communities.

    I had been very off and on with GW2, mostly playing it when RL friends were dipping their toes in temporarily from core all the way through Heart of Thorns. Not playing it for several months at a time. See it turns out the way core GW2 was developed was actually really bad at fostering communities. Open world PvE felt like playing alone together. You aren't actively playing with other people. No one even needs to talk to each other or actively party up. So you'd see 50 people fight Shadow Behemoth and not one word would be said and everyone would just move on and no one cared. If you compare how, say, Vanilla WoW subtly lead players from solo content to group content to dungeons to raids you see why that game was so effective at creating super close tight nit communities of players, some of which are still active to this day.

    Raids are the biggest reason why I went from playing GW2 a little bit every now and then to basically monogaming it. Difficult, challenging group content that I couldn't just solo or duo, that at the time felt impossible to pug, was the key that helped me find new guilds and friends and a community I care about. That didn't happen before back when I could literally solo or duo everything that I set my mind to with ease or when everything was like Clockwork Chaos and was boring slushy zerg content where the only thing that mattered was you showing up to vacuum up loot.

    So yeah, I probably wouldn't be here to buy stuff from the gem store like mount skins if raids weren't added and scratching an itch I needed from the game that wasn't there before.

    I've said it before but MMORPG's are like amusement parks. There are a huge variety of attractions with specific appeals that try to grab a wide range of people. You have tea cups, ferris wheels, games with prizes, people making cartoons, food and restaurants, hunted houses, live music, roller coasters and drop towers. Not everything is going to appeal to everyone and some stuff is too intense for some people. Not everyone is going to want to ride the roller coaster or drop tower and that's fine as long as there is other stuff in the amusement park to appeal to you. But still it's important that the roller coaster is there for the people that like roller coasters and that it's properly thrilling for them.

    Also lol at the idea that legions of people are sending you hate mail in game. If anyone actually thinks this is true I have a bridge to sell you.

    Please refrain from the personal insults and taking about something you know nothing about, as unless you have access to my account directly, you have zero idea how much hate mail I got, and if you paid any attention to these forums, every regular in this topic knows of me far more then they know of you.

    Regarding you claiming to get tons of hate mail in game over this thread, it's very easy to say things.

    Regarding your notoriety, I literally do not care.

    @Tyson.5160 said:

    @mortrialus.3062 said:

    @Tyson.5160 said:
    Your better off with what WoW has currently. The more you wipe, the more of a damage buff and damage reduction you get. If Anet gives a reason to go back into these raids at easier settings, you could possibly see people not use the buff at all the more they improve.

    That's what WoW has devolved into? What an embarrassment.

    Yeah it’s a part of the LFR system. Here is the wiki as a reference.

    https://wow.gamepedia.com/Determination

    This reminds me of Super Mario Brothers Wii and Donkey Kong Country Returns where if you die the game offers to play itself for you. Gross.

    WoW's dungeon and raid system is the last thing in the world we want. You're thrown into a party with a bunch of random people, you effortlessly clear all content and vacuum up look without any real effort, no one ever says anything because no one needs to say anything, and once you're done with the instance everyone leaves and those random people stay random people because there's no reason to try and party up with good players because any one will do because there is no challengel It's literally the worst aspects of GW2's raids and the core Tyria world boss train combined into one.

    The Psychomancer: Mesmer Elite Specialization Suggestion

  • Vinceman.4572Vinceman.4572 Member ✭✭✭✭
    Raids are fine the way they are, combining bosses of various difficulties

    @STIHL.2489 said:
    You would have bought that with or without raids being in the game.. come off it.

    No, I wouldn't because I would have left the game. When Heart of Thorns was released after a very long content drought I've seen it as Anet's last chance to convince me of GW2. I played the story, the maps several times, the new fractal system with levelling to 100 and tried raids. I left again 1 or 2 months after release because there hasn't been anything left in the game that interested me besides raids but I was not motivated to look for a static. When I came back it was the same picture but luckily friends of mine were also playing again and tried raids. I joined them and could make progress. I'm enjoying raiding till that day compared with open world breaks and sometimes daily fractals. Without raids I wouldn't be here. It's that simple. That would also mean less gliding skins, less qol items, less mount skins and not a 2nd 100€ investment (1st was HoT) with PoF. Not even in this thread, no you did it in others: You're forgetting that raiders are most often dedicated longterm players (a.k.a. veterans) and almost all of them are playing other stuff in the game as well. The minority is camping the lfg and joining every free spot in a raid squad they can get.

    I don't believe they would ride a dead horse for years. That would be insane from a serious business view.

    LOL.. I see you never heard of the NGE, if you really think an MMO would not cling to a mistake.

    Of course there are those example but please show me the exact proof that raids are a dead horse in GW2. There's absolutely zero sign for such an assumption because they are actively played every day. And since NCSoft earning report numbers are very solid for GW2 I still don't see any tiny bit of the picture you want to paint.

  • Astralporing.1957Astralporing.1957 Member ✭✭✭✭
    We need an easy mode, but not a hard mode

    @mortrialus.3062 said:
    Last time we received information, there were 13 people working on raids.

    No. There were 13 people that were assigned specifically to raids. They weren't the only ones that worked for them, though. People from core team did so as well. One good example is raid encounter music - it's not being done by any of the "raid team" members, but by someone that does that job for the whole game. Legendary armor (that, remember, took a whole year of hard work) was also not done by someone hired specifically for that one job. The real number of people that contributed to raids is likely much bigger than just 13.

    The whole point of a social game is to play with the people you want to play with, not be forced to play with the people you don't.

  • STIHL.2489STIHL.2489 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited November 30, 2018

    @Vinceman.4572 said:

    @STIHL.2489 said:
    You would have bought that with or without raids being in the game.. come off it.

    No, I wouldn't because I would have left the game. When Heart of Thorns was released after a very long content drought I've seen it as Anet's last chance to convince me of GW2. I played the story, the maps several times, the new fractal system with levelling to 100 and tried raids. I left again 1 or 2 months after release because there hasn't been anything left in the game that interested me besides raids but I was not motivated to look for a static. When I came back it was the same picture but luckily friends of mine were also playing again and tried raids. I joined them and could make progress. I'm enjoying raiding till that day compared with open world breaks and sometimes daily fractals. Without raids I wouldn't be here. Without my Friends coming back to play, It's that simple.

    Fixed that for you.

    See, For anyone that is wondering, this poster just made it clear that Raids did not retain them, even with their introduction, and the supposedly harder/better content of HoT, they still left the game.

    The ONLY thing that retained this player was their friends playing again.. not raids, not convoluted HoT maps, not Meta Events, not Fractals, not any content in any form.... their friends... and ONLY their friends.

    In short.. if your fiends had not come back to play, you would not have been here. Raids had nothing to do with it, it's that simple.

    I don't believe they would ride a dead horse for years. That would be insane from a serious business view.

    LOL.. I see you never heard of the NGE, if you really think an MMO would not cling to a mistake.

    Of course there are those example but please show me the exact proof that raids are a dead horse in GW2. There's absolutely zero sign for such an assumption because they are actively played every day. And since NCSoft earning report numbers are very solid for GW2 I still don't see any tiny bit of the picture you want to paint.

    You make it sound like player numbers matters, or that participation is important.. Dungeons were also played all the time. with actual real PUG groups, there was always LFG's for many of the dungeons, AC, TA, CoF, were very common, and these were real PUG's, not sellers, where even filthy casual like myself could very easy get several thousand tokens, not only that, they were linked to all the Gen 1 Legendary Weapons, yet they were canceled .

    Truth is, you have no idea why Raids are still around, they didn't even retain you, only your friends did that, and their existence is not a measurement of their success or activity, but simply because someone in a position of control is keeping them around for reasons you know nothing about.

    There are two kinds of Gamers, Salty, and Extra Salty.
    Ego is the Anesthesia that dullens the pain of Stupidity.

  • STIHL.2489STIHL.2489 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @STIHL.2489 said:
    Raids on the other hand, are not profitable at all, as there is not a single thing about them to market in the store, or to the people that do them.

    Raids mean expansion sales just to access them.

    This only applies to the <10% of the players that want to raid, and would mean a little less then jack squat to their overall sales.

    and exist.. sure... after all Dungeons Exist.. they are already in the game.. thus.. they exist. Not sure what your point was, when the reality is, Raids didn't keep you either, you're fiends did.. and when they leave again.. so will you.. raids or no raids.

    There are two kinds of Gamers, Salty, and Extra Salty.
    Ego is the Anesthesia that dullens the pain of Stupidity.

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭
    Raids have problems, but we need a better solution

    @STIHL.2489 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @STIHL.2489 said:
    Raids on the other hand, are not profitable at all, as there is not a single thing about them to market in the store, or to the people that do them.

    Raids mean expansion sales just to access them.

    This only applies to the <10% of the players that want to raid, and would mean a little less then jack squat to their overall sales.

    That still makes Raids more -actually- profitable than Fractals, WVW or PVP. At least to Raid you need to buy an expansion, regardless of the number. To play the others you need nothing, you can play them as a cheap free player without ever giving anything to Anet.

  • Vinceman.4572Vinceman.4572 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited November 30, 2018
    Raids are fine the way they are, combining bosses of various difficulties

    @STIHL.2489 said:
    See, For anyone that is wondering, this poster just made it clear that Raids did not retain them, even with their introduction, and the supposedly harder/better content of HoT, they still left the game.

    The ONLY thing that retained this player was their friends playing again.. not raids, not convoluted HoT maps, not Meta Events, not Fractals, not any content in any form.... their friends... and ONLY their friends.
    In short.. if your fiends had not come back to play, you would not have been here. Raids had nothing to do with it, it's that simple.

    Wrong! I was browsing the german subforum on a daily basis - I am one of the more active poster there out of maybe 20 peeps - and looking for raid groups that could have fit for me. The thing with some friends was just very lucky but logical consequence due to both sites looking after getting into raids.
    With the amount of training discords now and with me reading the forums & reddit I would have been back as well becaus there is a semi-reasonable approach of players bringing into the content. That's btw. one of the point of criticism I have to make about raids. A presentation area for guilds - most likely in the lfg panel - would be one step further to bring players together - and of course it should exist for the whole game because as a beginner you either find a guild via map chat by chance if someone is advertising or via forums/reddit.

    You make it sound like player numbers matters, or that participation is important.. Dungeons were also played all the time. with actual real PUG groups, there was always LFG's for many of the dungeons, AC, TA, CoF, were very common, and these were real PUG's, not sellers, where even filthy casual like myself could very easy get several thousand tokens, not only that, they were linked to all the Gen 1 Legendary Weapons, yet they were canceled .

    Truth is, you have no idea why Raids are still around, they didn't even retain you, only your friends did that, and their existence is not a measurement of their success or activity, but simply because someone in a position of control is keeping them around for reasons you know nothing about.

    Completely bs. Of course they retained me. STIHL, it's THE content I play on a regular basis. Not fractals, not open world stuff, not dungeons, not rp, not PvP, not WvW. I don't deny that friends also have an impact of logging in but here comes the fun fact: Most of my ingame friends I have regular contact with are - tadah - raiders. The friend I started to raid after my hiatus is doing roller beetle time trials to get the gold achievement. A new introduction I absolutely hate and find disgusting due to very horrible controls of the beetle. I hate Anet for that implementation btw. Do I wish that they delete that kind of content? Absolutely! Will it happen. No! And of course that's fine and more reasonable thinking by me because it's just content some other people like and I don't. So, they get something to play and I have different stuff in the game a.k.a. raids. Here we go again: MMO as a theme park.

  • STIHL.2489STIHL.2489 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited November 30, 2018

    @Vinceman.4572 said:

    @STIHL.2489 said:
    See, For anyone that is wondering, this poster just made it clear that Raids did not retain them, even with their introduction, and the supposedly harder/better content of HoT, they still left the game.

    The ONLY thing that retained this player was their friends playing again.. not raids, not convoluted HoT maps, not Meta Events, not Fractals, not any content in any form.... their friends... and ONLY their friends.
    In short.. if your fiends had not come back to play, you would not have been here. Raids had nothing to do with it, it's that simple.

    Wrong! I was browsing the german subforum on a daily basis - I am one of the more active poster there out of maybe 20 peeps - and looking for raid groups that could have fit for me. The thing with some friends was just very lucky but logical consequence due to both sites looking after getting into raids.
    With the amount of training discords now and with me reading the forums & reddit I would have been back as well becaus there is a semi-reasonable approach of players bringing into the content.

    Oh please.. lets spare the deception... the content didn't bring you in or retain you, you left when it was put in .

    YOU LEFT WHEN RAIDS WERE PUT IN

    And you didn't come back for them.. truth is, no matter how much you try to play it otherwise The ONLY reason you are playing today, is because your friends are playing.

    NO OTHER REASON

    You will do content you hate because they are doing it.. You know it, I know it, and reality is, it's not raids, roller beetles, or anything else as to why you are here today, , it's your friends, and when they leave, you will leave with them..

    I'd say we are done now.. but, I don't think you want to admit the truth, even when you know it.

    There are two kinds of Gamers, Salty, and Extra Salty.
    Ego is the Anesthesia that dullens the pain of Stupidity.

  • STIHL.2489STIHL.2489 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Vinceman.4572 said:

    @STIHL.2489 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @STIHL.2489 said:
    Raids on the other hand, are not profitable at all, as there is not a single thing about them to market in the store, or to the people that do them.

    Raids mean expansion sales just to access them.

    This only applies to the <10% of the players that want to raid, and would mean a little less then jack squat to their overall sales.

    That still makes Raids more -actually- profitable than Fractals, WVW or PVP. At least to Raid you need to buy an expansion, regardless of the number. To play the others you need nothing, you can play them as a cheap free player without ever giving anything to Anet.

    Not at all, if there was any truth to that, they could sell raids stand alone and they would self fund.. and we both know this is not true at all. As such, they must be loosing money making raids.

    Ponder that for a while before you just cry that I am wrong and throw out some unfounded hackneyed reason why you think that is not true.

    There are two kinds of Gamers, Salty, and Extra Salty.
    Ego is the Anesthesia that dullens the pain of Stupidity.

  • Vinceman.4572Vinceman.4572 Member ✭✭✭✭
    Raids are fine the way they are, combining bosses of various difficulties

    @STIHL.2489 said:
    Oh please.. lets spare the deception... the content didn't bring you in or retain you, you left when it was put in .
    YOU LEFT WHEN RAIDS WERE PUT IN

    No, you didn't read properly: I left because there was nothing to do for me in the game in the first place. And that was shortly AFTER BRINGING OUT AN EXPANSION a.k.a. not having any substantial content fitting to my demands. The only thing I was interested in were raids but due to them being new and nobody of my friends and guild mates were actually trying because they did collections or already left the game after some weeks before me leaving.

    And you didn't come back for them.. truth is, no matter how much you try to play it otherwise The ONLY reason you are playing today, is because your friends are playing.
    NO OTHER REASON

    Nope, some of them have already left or just logging in from time to time when some updates are introduced but in some direction you are right: I made new friends due to raiding - namely the people of my raiding guild - and I talk to them almost every day. Even now while I'm writing these words I'm hanging out in the discord channel of my raiding guild and are talking (& chatting) to/with other members. I definitely wouldn't sit in a discord of an open world, pvp, wvw or anything related guild. A fractal discord at best! Not to mention that our main topics are "raids", "raid builds & compositions", "raid pugging", "watching raid streams together". It's very heavily raid focused and of course some gossip.
    There's only one exception: 2 real life buddies (see above; connection long before GW2) but I would also hanging out with them elsewhere and playing games like "The Forest" or other stuff we try from time to time.

    You will do content you hate because they are doing it.. You know it, I know it, and reality is, it's not raids, roller beetles, or anything else as to why you are here today, , it's your friends, and when they leave, you will leave with them..

    I'd say we are done now.. but, I don't think you want to admit the truth, even when you know it.

    I also countered that: I tried the roller beetle racing and I really find it disgusting. So, you don't see me there trying to achieve the gold times. I'll just do the dailies here and there to get some decorations for my personal guild hall. Above mentioned buddies are also enthusiastic pvp players (of very decent skill level) but till today I haven't played a single pvp match with them. You couldn't be more wrong here.

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭
    Raids have problems, but we need a better solution

    @STIHL.2489 said:
    Not at all, if there was any truth to that, they could sell raids stand alone and they would self fund.. and we both know this is not true at all. As such, they must be loosing money making raids.

    This is silly and assumes that these raiders only play Raids and no other parts of the game. Of course there are some that do that but those are probably a minority, even by raid population standards. Why would raiders need to pay extra for their Raids while at the same time need to pay for the Elite Specs and other mechanics that will be available in the expansion, like access to mounts. There is no way Raids could self fund themselves because those enjoying raids would be cheated, as they'd have to pay extra for the content they enjoy.

    Now if they made it so expansions gave you elite specs, new mastery abilities, the next story at a very low price, then add everything else as extras, like collections, meta events, and of course skins for every mode as extras, then your argument might work. After all, just like you don't like paying for Raids because you don't play them, I don't like paying for the future development of skins like Requiem Armor, I don't like paying for meta events like Serpent's Ire or Istan. I don't want my money to be spent developing new beetle races, I honestly dislike the beetle and how it handles, yet they invest so many resources on that without asking. Let's make it so every bit of the game is sold in bits and pieces and see which parts can be self funded and which ones cannot. Why stop at Raids? You are saying that Raids would not self fund, which piece of the game CAN self fund I wonder?

  • STIHL.2489STIHL.2489 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited November 30, 2018

    @Vinceman.4572 said:
    No, you didn't read properly: I left because there was nothing to do for me in the game in the first place. And that was shortly AFTER BRINGING OUT AN EXPANSION a.k.a. not having any substantial content fitting to my demands. The only thing I was interested in were raids but due to them being new and nobody of my friends and guild mates were actually trying because they did collections or already left the game after some weeks before me leaving.

    No, I read that perfectly.. now maybe you might want to read your own words.. and then think "Hey, what about people that don't already belong to a clique of raiders" .. hum they would be exactly like you were.. but with no returning friends

    Now hard to see the reality.. when you open your own eyes.

    But feel free to keep the blinders on.. my point is done with you.

    There are two kinds of Gamers, Salty, and Extra Salty.
    Ego is the Anesthesia that dullens the pain of Stupidity.

  • STIHL.2489STIHL.2489 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @STIHL.2489 said:
    Not at all, if there was any truth to that, they could sell raids stand alone and they would self fund.. and we both know this is not true at all. As such, they must be loosing money making raids.

    This is silly and assumes that these raiders only play Raids and no other parts of the game.

    Yup silly.. almost as silly as assuming that they would only buy the expansion for the raids, I do so love how you shot down your own point of their profitability.

    There are two kinds of Gamers, Salty, and Extra Salty.
    Ego is the Anesthesia that dullens the pain of Stupidity.

  • STIHL.2489STIHL.2489 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited November 30, 2018

    @maddoctor.2738 said:
    Let's make it so every bit of the game is sold in bits and pieces and see which parts can be self funded and which ones cannot. Why stop at Raids? You are saying that Raids would not self fund, which piece of the game CAN self fund I wonder?

    What's funny, is that I suggested this a long time ago.. Raiders cried to the high heavens that they should not do this.. because they knew their content would never be made with that payment plan.

    But I support this 100%,

    YES PLEASE!

    • sell the Living Stories (Your Hated Beetles),
    • sell the New World Maps with their special gear,
    • Sell the Elite Specs,
    • Sell the Mastery Lines,
    • Make all Fractals past T2 paid for content only, and sell additional Fractal maps
    • Make and Sell new WvW maps
    • Make and Sell New PvP maps,
    • Make and sell additional Reward Tracks for PvP Content!
    • Make and Sell new Dungeons
    • Make and Sell New Raids
    • Sell all those things separate from each other,
    • Throw in some Special Seasonal events in there too.. like some kind of Spring revival event, Paid Only.

    Piecemeal the game.. GW2 would not be the first game to do this.. and then build and develop what sells.

    YAH BABY! MAKE THIS HAPPEN.. I would even come back if they did this.. just so I could watch your raids die.

    Wanna know something.. a ways back, I even made a poll on this very subject..

    wanna guess what took the most votes (here is a hint, it was not Raids).

    There are two kinds of Gamers, Salty, and Extra Salty.
    Ego is the Anesthesia that dullens the pain of Stupidity.

  • mortrialus.3062mortrialus.3062 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited December 1, 2018
    Raids are fine the way they are, combining bosses of various difficulties

    @STIHL.2489 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:
    Let's make it so every bit of the game is sold in bits and pieces and see which parts can be self funded and which ones cannot. Why stop at Raids? You are saying that Raids would not self fund, which piece of the game CAN self fund I wonder?

    What's funny, is that I suggested this a long time ago.. Raiders cried to the high heavens that they should not do this.. because they knew their content would never be made with that payment plan.

    But I support this 100%,

    YES PLEASE!

    • sell the Living Stories (Your Hated Beetles),
    • sell the New World Maps with their special gear,
    • Sell the Elite Specs,
    • Sell the Mastery Lines,
    • Make all Fractals past T2 paid for content only, and sell additional Fractal maps
    • Make and Sell new WvW maps
    • Make and Sell New PvP maps,
    • Make and sell additional Reward Tracks for PvP Content!
    • Make and Sell new Dungeons
    • Make and Sell New Raids
    • Sell all those things separate from each other,
    • Throw in some Special Seasonal events in there too.. like some kind of Spring revival event, Paid Only.

    Piecemeal the game.. GW2 would not be the first game to do this.. and then build and develop what sells.

    YAH BABY! MAKE THIS HAPPEN.. I would even come back if they did this.. just so I could watch your raids die.

    Wanna know something.. a ways back, I even made a poll on this very subject..

    wanna guess what took the most votes (here is a hint, it was not Raids).

    This wouldn't just kill raids, it would literally kill the entire game singlehandedly. Breaking the game into a bunch of disconnected parts constantly asking you to bust our your credit card literally every door you walk through would drive away players from all content in the game. I mean hell just imagine the monstrously bad press this would get from every gaming publication and pundit about how the previously free to play, occasional paid expansion, no pay to win skin and convenience cash shop is suddenly demanding money from players literally every step they take in the game. It would make Mount Gate, Heart of Thorns Price Point, and Jessica Price controversies look microscopically small in comparison. I can literally see the Jim Sterling episode with 2 million views play out in my head.

    The Psychomancer: Mesmer Elite Specialization Suggestion

  • STIHL.2489STIHL.2489 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited December 1, 2018

    @mortrialus.3062 said:

    @STIHL.2489 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:
    Let's make it so every bit of the game is sold in bits and pieces and see which parts can be self funded and which ones cannot. Why stop at Raids? You are saying that Raids would not self fund, which piece of the game CAN self fund I wonder?

    What's funny, is that I suggested this a long time ago.. Raiders cried to the high heavens that they should not do this.. because they knew their content would never be made with that payment plan.

    But I support this 100%,

    YES PLEASE!

    • sell the Living Stories (Your Hated Beetles),
    • sell the New World Maps with their special gear,
    • Sell the Elite Specs,
    • Sell the Mastery Lines,
    • Make all Fractals past T2 paid for content only, and sell additional Fractal maps
    • Make and Sell new WvW maps
    • Make and Sell New PvP maps,
    • Make and sell additional Reward Tracks for PvP Content!
    • Make and Sell new Dungeons
    • Make and Sell New Raids
    • Sell all those things separate from each other,
    • Throw in some Special Seasonal events in there too.. like some kind of Spring revival event, Paid Only.

    Piecemeal the game.. GW2 would not be the first game to do this.. and then build and develop what sells.

    YAH BABY! MAKE THIS HAPPEN.. I would even come back if they did this.. just so I could watch your raids die.

    Wanna know something.. a ways back, I even made a poll on this very subject..

    wanna guess what took the most votes (here is a hint, it was not Raids).

    This wouldn't just kill raids, it would literally kill the entire game singlehandedly.

    Again, others games have done this with much success, spare me the doom and gloom.

    Breaking the game into a bunch of disconnected parts constantly asking you to bust our your credit card literally every door you walk through would drive away players from all content in the game. I mean hell just imagine the monstrously bad press this would get from every gaming publication and pundit about how the previously free to play, occasional paid expansion, no pay to win skin and convenience cash shop is suddenly demanding money from players literally every step they take in the game. It would make Mount Gate, Heart of Thorns Price Point, and Jessica Price controversies look microscopically small in comparison. I can literally see the Jim Sterling episode with 2 million views play out in my head.

    So let me get this right.. players will get outraged for not being charged for the development of content they don't play.. amazing.

    I find it hilarious that after the notorious Mount gate as it was called, happened that players would be offended that they are no longer being gulled into funding parts of the game they may hate and wish was never made though buying things like Mount Skins and could just buy and support the development of the content that they want to play.

    Will these kinds of wonders never cease. to amaze and amuse me.

    The fact that players called Mount Skins P2W still makes me chuckle even to this day. The hilarity of that event has not dulled with the passage of time. I cannot fathom what the Executive team must think of "Mount Gate".. I hope they laugh about the absurdity of it as much as I do.

    But.. hey.. I am kinda reminded of a Quote that was Attributed to P.T Barnum.

    There are two kinds of Gamers, Salty, and Extra Salty.
    Ego is the Anesthesia that dullens the pain of Stupidity.

  • mortrialus.3062mortrialus.3062 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited December 1, 2018
    Raids are fine the way they are, combining bosses of various difficulties

    @STIHL.2489 said:

    @mortrialus.3062 said:

    @STIHL.2489 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:
    Let's make it so every bit of the game is sold in bits and pieces and see which parts can be self funded and which ones cannot. Why stop at Raids? You are saying that Raids would not self fund, which piece of the game CAN self fund I wonder?

    What's funny, is that I suggested this a long time ago.. Raiders cried to the high heavens that they should not do this.. because they knew their content would never be made with that payment plan.

    But I support this 100%,

    YES PLEASE!

    • sell the Living Stories (Your Hated Beetles),
    • sell the New World Maps with their special gear,
    • Sell the Elite Specs,
    • Sell the Mastery Lines,
    • Make all Fractals past T2 paid for content only, and sell additional Fractal maps
    • Make and Sell new WvW maps
    • Make and Sell New PvP maps,
    • Make and sell additional Reward Tracks for PvP Content!
    • Make and Sell new Dungeons
    • Make and Sell New Raids
    • Sell all those things separate from each other,
    • Throw in some Special Seasonal events in there too.. like some kind of Spring revival event, Paid Only.

    Piecemeal the game.. GW2 would not be the first game to do this.. and then build and develop what sells.

    YAH BABY! MAKE THIS HAPPEN.. I would even come back if they did this.. just so I could watch your raids die.

    Wanna know something.. a ways back, I even made a poll on this very subject..

    wanna guess what took the most votes (here is a hint, it was not Raids).

    This wouldn't just kill raids, it would literally kill the entire game singlehandedly.

    Again, others games have done this with much success, spare me the doom and gloom.

    I've personally never heard of a subscription free game chopping itself into bits and pieces and trying to sell content already paid for to people a second time.

    Breaking the game into a bunch of disconnected parts constantly asking you to bust our your credit card literally every door you walk through would drive away players from all content in the game. I mean hell just imagine the monstrously bad press this would get from every gaming publication and pundit about how the previously free to play, occasional paid expansion, no pay to win skin and convenience cash shop is suddenly demanding money from players literally every step they take in the game. It would make Mount Gate, Heart of Thorns Price Point, and Jessica Price controversies look microscopically small in comparison. I can literally see the Jim Sterling episode with 2 million views play out in my head.

    So let me get this right.. players will get outraged for not being charged for the development of content they don't play.. amazing.

    Here's the thing, there's two boxed expansions (Which were already controversial enough) as the only price point required to play all the content the game as long as you're logging into the game to unlock living world releases. Aside from that there is no demand for you to pay for any more content. None. All content is available to you. You don't have to pay for the development of ANY content unless you choose to by purchasing gems for entirely optional noncontent nonp2w fluff like mount skins, glider skins, weapon and armor skins and a few conveniences like copper fed salvage kit.

    And yeah, transforming the game where every time someone clicks the PvP panel and the gem store pops up demanding $10, or the WvW panel popping up demanding $10, to loading into core Tyria, to loading into a core dungeon, to loading into a fractal, to loading you in raid or anything, would absolutely kill the game by discouraging players from ever trying anything new. Turning a game that has a one time up front purchase and is otherwise subscription free with an entirely optional cash shop into a monster that nickles and dimes people who want to try new things is about as bad of an idea that could ever happen to this game. It's also funny how you think raids are inaccessible and must die, but turning the subscription free game into a bouncer demanding money ever second someone thinks about trying something new or something new is added to the game isn't inaccessible. It's literally backwards.

    I find it hilarious that after the notorious Mount gate as it was called, happened that players would be offended that they are no longer being gulled into funding parts of the game they may hate and wish was never made though buying things like Mount Skins and could just buy and support the development of the content that they want to play.

    Will these kinds of wonders never cease. to amaze and amuse me.

    The fact that players called Mount Skins P2W still makes me chuckle even to this day. The hilarity of that event has not dulled with the passage of time. I cannot fathom what the Executive team must think of "Mount Gate".. I hope they laugh about the absurdity of it as much as I do.

    No one called mount skins P2W. They were called out for being too similar to lootboxes, which have been a hot topic since Overwatch's influence exploded them into more and more games; manipulative RNG pachinko machines. Especially since the specter of spending money on the gem store wanting a specific mount skin, and walking away without wanted felt like it went against everything the gem store stood for by being so much more fair than other F2P games. Triply so because just previously the Spooky Mount pack was the first mount skins sold, and while lightly criticized for being a bit too expensive was a fairer deal with one transaction where you wouldn't miss out on any mounts in the pack.

    The Psychomancer: Mesmer Elite Specialization Suggestion

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭
    Raids have problems, but we need a better solution

    @STIHL.2489 said:
    What's funny, is that I suggested this a long time ago.. Raiders cried to the high heavens that they should not do this.. because they knew their content would never be made with that payment plan.

    I don't think "Raids" will die if they offered the game piece meal, in fact they'd thrive more than they do now. At least Raids have a dedicated audience, something not true about nearly everything else in the game, where the players play only very specific parts of the game and ignore most others. Raiders might be a small group, but at least they play their content, meanwhile bounties rot alone, random champion bosses (that are needed for collections!) rot alone and you must beg to get players to help you kill them. Adventures are deserted after their initial novelty wears off, WVW/PVP is full of farmers and not players that actually like those modes, meaning they wouldn't pay for future development, they are just there to grind/farm. Further, let's not forget the Living World zones.... if you've been to the older ones, you'd know that they aren't very well populated. And even more recent ones, like Sandswept Isles, isn't exactly full of players.

    Raiders PLAY their content, while open world players go to the best farm events (Istan, AB in the past, the next big thing tomorrow) and the rest of the open world dies after a few months (maybe even faster)

    With a game like GW2 were the vast majority of players go to the most profitable farms and the rest of the game suffers, offering it piecemeal would kill it. It has nothing to do with Raids, it would kill the entire game due to how it's designed to send players to the most profitable meta events and let the rest of the game be something that lasts a couple of weeks and then it's ignored. Even if Raids never existed, offering the game piecemeal would never work.

  • mortrialus.3062mortrialus.3062 Member ✭✭✭✭
    Raids are fine the way they are, combining bosses of various difficulties

    @STIHL.2489 said:
    What's funny, is that I suggested this a long time ago.. Raiders cried to the high heavens that they should not do this.. because they knew their content would never be made with that payment plan.

    I don't think "Raids" will die if they offered the game piece meal, in fact they'd thrive more than they do now. At least Raids have a dedicated audience, something not true about nearly everything else in the game, where the players play only very specific parts of the game and ignore most others. Raiders might be a small group, but at least they play their content, meanwhile bounties rot alone, random champion bosses (that are needed for collections!) rot alone and you must beg to get players to help you kill them. Adventures are deserted after their initial novelty wears off, WVW/PVP is full of farmers and not players that actually like those modes, meaning they wouldn't pay for future development, they are just there to grind/farm. Further, let's not forget the Living World zones.... if you've been to the older ones, you'd know that they aren't very well populated. And even more recent ones, like Sandswept Isles, isn't exactly full of players.

    Raiders PLAY their content, while open world players go to the best farm events (Istan, AB in the past, the next big thing tomorrow) and the rest of the open world dies after a few months (maybe even faster)

    With a game like GW2 were the vast majority of players go to the most profitable farms and the rest of the game suffers, offering it piecemeal would kill it. It has nothing to do with Raids, it would kill the entire game due to how it's designed to send players to the most profitable meta events and let the rest of the game be something that lasts a couple of weeks and then it's ignored. Even if Raids never existed, offering the game piecemeal would never work.

    All those living world maps would be packed full of players if it wasn't for raids driving everyone away tho :p

    The Psychomancer: Mesmer Elite Specialization Suggestion

  • Vinceman.4572Vinceman.4572 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited December 1, 2018
    Raids are fine the way they are, combining bosses of various difficulties

    @STIHL.2489 said:
    No, I read that perfectly.. now maybe you might want to read your own words.. and then think "Hey, what about people that don't already belong to a clique of raiders" .. hum they would be exactly like you were.. but with no returning friends
    Now hard to see the reality.. when you open your own eyes.
    But feel free to keep the blinders on.. my point is done with you.

    Edit:
    Maybe it's the language barrier since I'm not a native english speaker. I'll try it again: Raids are the content that are keeping me playing the game. Without raids I wouldn't be here and I wouldn't be spending any amount of money. Even with friends calling me: "Hey, there's a beetle out now.", I would have logged in, had a look and would log out after 1-2 hours because it's not my content. Same with: "Hey, there are roller beetle races.". I would have logged in, had a look but again it wouldn't keep me playing.
    Fractals & raids on the other hand are content I play regularly which means I'm logged into the game on a daily basis. Additionally I could make some friends connected via raiding and those also keep me logging in because we share the same interests: Raids & fractals.
    I repeat: An open world guild would not satisfy my interests since I won't follow a call: "Can you help me at Svanir Shaman." or "Hey folks, we need people for Tequatl." That would be content that bores me to hell and there's no fun in playing it. At best I would sit in their discord and play different games which would be still no advantage for GW2 or Anet since they won't see any cent of my money.

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