Do raids need easy/normal/hard difficulty mode? [merged] - Page 87 — Guild Wars 2 Forums

Do raids need easy/normal/hard difficulty mode? [merged]

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  • hugo.4705hugo.4705 Member ✭✭✭✭
    We need an easy mode, but not a hard mode

    @Vinceman.4572 said:

    @hugo.4705 said:
    More Raids like Snowmen's Lair, 6 years I've been playing, and never enjoyed that content due to Elitist and those awful METAS. I don't want to be rejected anymore and having unexplored areas on my world map locked behind that. ME and SEVERAL of my friends want an EASY mode, requiring only 5 PLAYERS where everyone can come with the build they have, like we've done with SECRET LAIR OF THE SNOWMEN. Every patch I see "new raid" I'm crying bcause at the contrary of Fractals, Living story, WvW which are accessible, raids aren't, and I find the idea of locking explorable maps behind raids horrible. (Yeah they are explorable map with a ton of awesome lore, and that's sad I can't experience it 6years after the beginning of the game). I play with my own full ascended set and will not trade it for another corresponding to meta just to fit a role corresponding to a play-style I hate.

    GUESS I will stay with several unexplored maps on my world map 6 more years!

    Why not have a look at the lfg and join the ones offering a cleared wing? You'll explore everything (100%!) and additionally you can experience the lore because it's literally laying on the ground in form of notes, books w/e. Bosses and the few cut scenes don't add anything. Most of them can be watched as well in a cleared instance.
    Seems like we have a heavy lack of information here.

    You're clearly the first one, telling me that about cleared wings. In 6 years I only saw groups with "we need one META chrono" "One meta reaper" "Pls require 1 DPS", "1 healer or support plz" Never saw cleared wing. But thanks, will look forward If i can find that. :/ :)

    +++Number ONE fan of I.N.Q.U.E.S.T, don't worry, I'm chaotic-neutral. I like baddies in general. +++

  • Linken.6345Linken.6345 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 27, 2019

    @hugo.4705 said:

    @Vinceman.4572 said:

    @hugo.4705 said:
    More Raids like Snowmen's Lair, 6 years I've been playing, and never enjoyed that content due to Elitist and those awful METAS. I don't want to be rejected anymore and having unexplored areas on my world map locked behind that. ME and SEVERAL of my friends want an EASY mode, requiring only 5 PLAYERS where everyone can come with the build they have, like we've done with SECRET LAIR OF THE SNOWMEN. Every patch I see "new raid" I'm crying bcause at the contrary of Fractals, Living story, WvW which are accessible, raids aren't, and I find the idea of locking explorable maps behind raids horrible. (Yeah they are explorable map with a ton of awesome lore, and that's sad I can't experience it 6years after the beginning of the game). I play with my own full ascended set and will not trade it for another corresponding to meta just to fit a role corresponding to a play-style I hate.

    GUESS I will stay with several unexplored maps on my world map 6 more years!

    Why not have a look at the lfg and join the ones offering a cleared wing? You'll explore everything (100%!) and additionally you can experience the lore because it's literally laying on the ground in form of notes, books w/e. Bosses and the few cut scenes don't add anything. Most of them can be watched as well in a cleared instance.
    Seems like we have a heavy lack of information here.

    You're clearly the first one, telling me that about cleared wings. In 6 years I only saw groups with "we need one META chrono" "One meta reaper" "Pls require 1 DPS", "1 healer or support plz" Never saw cleared wing. But thanks, will look forward If i can find that. :/ :)

    Or you can start your own lfg with msg like Lf cleared wing 1-6 today since its reset tomorrow and someone who cleared it during the week can see it.
    They then join you and go into each one in order, if not possible you will have to start 6 lfg for each one at a time.
    Why should people have to put it up if your the one looking for it?
    Edit
    I mean not like people are mind readers knowing people want to look at cleared instances for lore when they have been out so long already =)

  • hugo.4705hugo.4705 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 27, 2019
    We need an easy mode, but not a hard mode

    Can't still figure how it works... :/ once a group finished the raid wing, one stay in for the cleared wing? Yes we have a lack of information. Fractals, you have peoples discussing in map chat, you know how it works/ easy to understand how it works with training T1 + very understandable group description, not the case with raid. Plus you see, I never knew about that cleared wing thing, and never even knew I could advertise in lfg for that. But anyway, the thing I wanted to point out is the fact you have to ASK to explore, sure it will not kill me for asking but once you come in the instance, (can be said with dungeon too), you should have access to mounts/ or at least an option to remove all enemies and let you explore. (Speaking here if you enter the instance alone, and just want to explore) But besides that, about the gameplay himself, will simply return to what have been said before, raids like Hidden lair of the snowmen are fine for me. :)

    Got some nice players helping me out, kudos to them. :D I got the maps now.

    +++Number ONE fan of I.N.Q.U.E.S.T, don't worry, I'm chaotic-neutral. I like baddies in general. +++

  • Linken.6345Linken.6345 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 27, 2019

    @hugo.4705 said:
    Can't still figure how it works... :/ once a group finished the raid wing, one stay in for the cleared wing? Yes we have a lack of information. Fractals, you have peoples discussing in map chat, you know how it works/ easy to understand how it works with training T1 + very understandable group description, not the case with raid. Plus you see, I never knew about that cleared wing thing, and never even knew I could advertise in lfg for that. But anyway, the thing I wanted to point out is the fact you have to ASK to explore, sure it will not kill me for asking but once you come in the instance, (can be said with dungeon too), you should have access to mounts/ or at least an option to remove all enemies and let you explore. (Speaking here if you enter the instance alone, and just want to explore) But besides that, about the gameplay himself, will simply return to what have been said before, raids like Hidden lair of the snowmen are fine for me. :)

    Got some nice players helping me out, kudos to them. :D I got the maps now.

    The one who have killed all bosses in said wing enters first when you get the pop up to enter it will be a cleared instance meaning zero mobs.
    You can only use mounts in the pof raids wing 5 and 6.

    Edit
    Should have refreshed before replying congrats on the unlocked maps mate.

  • Tyson.5160Tyson.5160 Member ✭✭✭✭
    We need both easy and hard modes

    @Cyninja.2954 said:
    If raids as they are, do not survive in GW2, then they will take a spot just like dungeons and become side content. The game as a whole might very well remain successful, as it has now.

    I suspect this will be the final outcome. When Raids become this side content, then I think an easy mode will be created. Off the side of someone’s desk.

  • Vinceman.4572Vinceman.4572 Member ✭✭✭✭
    Raids are fine the way they are, combining bosses of various difficulties

    @Tyson.5160 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:
    If raids as they are, do not survive in GW2, then they will take a spot just like dungeons and become side content. The game as a whole might very well remain successful, as it has now.

    I suspect this will be the final outcome. When Raids become this side content, then I think an easy mode will be created. Off the side of someone’s desk.

    I expect this as well a couple of months before live support & development of the whole game will be shut down. There's so much stuff to do that is more important for the game than easy mode raids. At the moment lots of players are not satisfied with fractals & instabilities but I bet we won't see substantial changes or adjustments within the next 12 months. There are just too few people caring about developing this kind of content.

  • Astralporing.1957Astralporing.1957 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 29, 2019
    We need an easy mode, but not a hard mode

    @Tyson.5160 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:
    If raids as they are, do not survive in GW2, then they will take a spot just like dungeons and become side content. The game as a whole might very well remain successful, as it has now.

    I suspect this will be the final outcome. When Raids become this side content, then I think an easy mode will be created. Off the side of someone’s desk.

    By that time there would be no point in doing it, as the raiding population will become too small. More likely that even before reaching that point raid encountes will simply start getting "tweaks" and "balance passes" that will make them easier. It will be a finishing blow to the hardcore raider community, but will open the content for a wider, more mainstream audience.
    If it's not one major overhaul, but continuous tweaking, it won't require a lot of an effort and could be easily done without impacting work on other things that are "more important for the game than easy mode raids".

    The whole point of a social game is to play with the people you want to play with, not be forced to play with the people you don't.

  • Tyson.5160Tyson.5160 Member ✭✭✭✭
    We need both easy and hard modes

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @Tyson.5160 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:
    If raids as they are, do not survive in GW2, then they will take a spot just like dungeons and become side content. The game as a whole might very well remain successful, as it has now.

    I suspect this will be the final outcome. When Raids become this side content, then I think an easy mode will be created. Off the side of someone’s desk.

    By that time there would be no point in doing it, as the raiding population will become too small. More likely that even before reaching that point raid encountes will simply start getting "tweaks" and "balance passes" that will make them easier. It will be a finishing blow to the hardcore raider community, but will open the content for a wider, more mainstream audience.
    If it's not one major overhaul, but continuous tweaking, it won't require a lot of an effort and could be easily done without impacting work on other things that are "more important for the game than easy mode raids".

    Yeah it’s hard to say, there is always the potential that after wing 7, the devs may hang up the gloves on Raids.

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 29, 2019
    Raids are fine the way they are, combining bosses of various difficulties

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @Tyson.5160 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:
    If raids as they are, do not survive in GW2, then they will take a spot just like dungeons and become side content. The game as a whole might very well remain successful, as it has now.

    I suspect this will be the final outcome. When Raids become this side content, then I think an easy mode will be created. Off the side of someone’s desk.

    By that time there would be no point in doing it, as the raiding population will become too small. More likely that even before reaching that point raid encountes will simply start getting "tweaks" and "balance passes" that will make them easier. It will be a finishing blow to the hardcore raider community, but will open the content for a wider, more mainstream audience.
    If it's not one major overhaul, but continuous tweaking, it won't require a lot of an effort and could be easily done without impacting work on other things that are "more important for the game than easy mode raids".

    That is assuming that making an easy mode is in the interest of the game or the monetization, which I doubt it is.

    Easier access to legendary armor via pve undermines a vast majority of other content, most notably ascended armor (which relative to legendary gear is quite expensive, cetainly way more compared to ascended weapons to legendary weapons). It also removes all players who do spvp and wvw for legendary armor. That would put pressure on the teams creating content for those modes, if there are any, to an extent that the game modes would completely die off.

    Here is a more realistic ideal of what is going to happen if raids fall out of favor:

    • the content remains as is
    • people who want the rewards will have to spend more work in organizing groups
    • future power creep might make the content easier (and since then spvp and wvw would basically be dead with more power creep, who cares about them anyway)

    I doubt there will ever be a rework for easier raid content, especially if the mode gets less and less attention AND legendary armor works against the itemization system in the game. Just doesn't make any sense. There certainly was no incentive to make dungeons easier to make skins more available from there.

  • Astralporing.1957Astralporing.1957 Member ✭✭✭✭
    We need an easy mode, but not a hard mode

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @Tyson.5160 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:
    If raids as they are, do not survive in GW2, then they will take a spot just like dungeons and become side content. The game as a whole might very well remain successful, as it has now.

    I suspect this will be the final outcome. When Raids become this side content, then I think an easy mode will be created. Off the side of someone’s desk.

    By that time there would be no point in doing it, as the raiding population will become too small. More likely that even before reaching that point raid encountes will simply start getting "tweaks" and "balance passes" that will make them easier. It will be a finishing blow to the hardcore raider community, but will open the content for a wider, more mainstream audience.
    If it's not one major overhaul, but continuous tweaking, it won't require a lot of an effort and could be easily done without impacting work on other things that are "more important for the game than easy mode raids".

    That is assuming that making an easy mode is in the interest of the game or the monetization, which I doubt it is.

    At some point (which isn't all that off) there will be only two choices - leaving raids practically dead (with all effort put into them wasted), as the original community they were meant for is diminishing faster and faster, or salvage them by opening them to a wider audience.

    Easier access to legendary armor via pve undermines a vast majority of other content, most notably ascended armor (which relative to legendary gear is quite expensive, cetainly way more compared to ascended weapons to legendary weapons).

    As people from the raid scene like to point out, you can craft 10 ascended sets for a cost of a single legendary one, and that alone is enough to not undermine the worth of ascended gear. Same as with weapons.

    Here is a more realistic ideal of what is going to happen if raids fall out of favor:

    • the content remains as is
    • people who want the rewards will have to spend more work in organizing groups
    • future power creep might make the content easier (and since then spvp and wvw would basically be dead with more power creep, who cares about them anyway)

    All that would mean to things - first, all the effort put into raids so far would be wasted. Second, Anet would have to admit that raids were a wasted effort. And they are one of the game's more advertised contents, something front and center, not something that (like, for example, guild missions) can simply be conveniently forgotten.

    I doubt there will ever be a rework for easier raid content, especially if the mode gets less and less attention AND legendary armor works against the itemization system in the game. Just doesn't make any sense. There certainly was no incentive to make dungeons easier to make skins more available from there.

    Because dungeons were (and still are) easy enough. And they did add dungeon gear to pvp tracks, remember? Besides, Dungeons were treated that way mainly for one reason - because their code was so convoluted that noone wanted to touch them. If not for that, i'm pretty certain Anet would have tried to do something about them as well. In case of raids there's nothing like that, no tons of old bugs that would have to be dealt with - the effort to make them easier (and thus still relevant) would be relatively tiny. I know you probably don't want to hear it, but it is going to happen eventually. And long before the game is put into auto mode.

    The whole point of a social game is to play with the people you want to play with, not be forced to play with the people you don't.

  • Jasonbdj.4021Jasonbdj.4021 Member ✭✭
    edited January 30, 2019
    We need an easy mode, but not a hard mode

    The problems I have is -

    I can not guarantee to be online for a static group, simple I do have a department to run and responsibilities at my own house.
    I do have a list of areas that I need to study, my free time is on gaming.... last thing I wanna do is study a raid in GW2 lol.

    I've done VG and escort, doesn't seem so hard as people make it out however it was too much effort needed just to get into a group with all the 9999li req.

    Keep defending raids, you will continue to see lower number of people up for raids also people lying their way into groups and becomes a dead weight (am not being that person).

    I can do high level fractals etc fine. Not that I cant do raids just it is way too much effort needed to get into a group.

  • Henry.5713Henry.5713 Member ✭✭✭✭
    We need a hard mode, but not an easy mode

    We'll probably see Easy Modes around the same time Solo Dungeons and Fractal Leaderboards are introduced.

    Nothing is particularly hard if you divide it into small jobs. Henry Ford

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 30, 2019
    Raids are fine the way they are, combining bosses of various difficulties

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @Tyson.5160 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:
    If raids as they are, do not survive in GW2, then they will take a spot just like dungeons and become side content. The game as a whole might very well remain successful, as it has now.

    I suspect this will be the final outcome. When Raids become this side content, then I think an easy mode will be created. Off the side of someone’s desk.

    By that time there would be no point in doing it, as the raiding population will become too small. More likely that even before reaching that point raid encountes will simply start getting "tweaks" and "balance passes" that will make them easier. It will be a finishing blow to the hardcore raider community, but will open the content for a wider, more mainstream audience.
    If it's not one major overhaul, but continuous tweaking, it won't require a lot of an effort and could be easily done without impacting work on other things that are "more important for the game than easy mode raids".

    That is assuming that making an easy mode is in the interest of the game or the monetization, which I doubt it is.

    At some point (which isn't all that off) there will be only two choices - leaving raids practically dead (with all effort put into them wasted), as the original community they were meant for is diminishing faster and faster, or salvage them by opening them to a wider audience.

    Or, since neither you nor I have any statistics on how much revenue was/is being generated by raids, they just might keep making them for a 5-10% player base with minimal resources.

    Easier access to legendary armor via pve undermines a vast majority of other content, most notably ascended armor (which relative to legendary gear is quite expensive, cetainly way more compared to ascended weapons to legendary weapons).

    As people from the raid scene like to point out, you can craft 10 ascended sets for a cost of a single legendary one, and that alone is enough to not undermine the worth of ascended gear. Same as with weapons.

    Full set of legendary armor cost: 1,800 gold.
    1 set of ascended armor: 300 gold.
    Cost of ascended to legendary: about 5 times.

    1 legendary weapons cost: 1.2-2.5k gold
    1 ascended weapon cost: 30-50 gold
    Cost of ascended to legendary: about 20-40 times.

    That is without getting in the insane benefits of armor versus weapons. 1 set of armor has you set for life, 1 weapon is at best part of some builds.

    Where is the incentive to make legendary armor more available without drastically affecting the games economy?

    Here is a more realistic ideal of what is going to happen if raids fall out of favor:

    • the content remains as is
    • people who want the rewards will have to spend more work in organizing groups
    • future power creep might make the content easier (and since then spvp and wvw would basically be dead with more power creep, who cares about them anyway)

    All that would mean to things - first, all the effort put into raids so far would be wasted. Second, Anet would have to admit that raids were a wasted effort. And they are one of the game's more advertised contents, something front and center, not something that (like, for example, guild missions) can simply be conveniently forgotten.

    Who said raids failed? Maybe they are an insenly lucrative return for the amount of work versus reward. Raids might be some of the most lucrative content player wise, or not, none of us would know.

    I doubt there will ever be a rework for easier raid content, especially if the mode gets less and less attention AND legendary armor works against the itemization system in the game. Just doesn't make any sense. There certainly was no incentive to make dungeons easier to make skins more available from there.

    Because dungeons were (and still are) easy enough. And they did add dungeon gear to pvp tracks, remember? Besides, Dungeons were treated that way mainly for one reason - because their code was so convoluted that noone wanted to touch them. If not for that, i'm pretty certain Anet would have tried to do something about them as well. In case of raids there's nothing like that, no tons of old bugs that would have to be dealt with - the effort to make them easier (and thus still relevant) would be relatively tiny. I know you probably don't want to hear it, but it is going to happen eventually. And long before the game is put into auto mode.

    The only thing differentiating raids from other content is legendary armor availability and complexity. Who says this content needs to get played by 90% of the player base, even more so if getting this contents rewards might directly adversely affect player retention (see my explanation earlier about legendary armor).

    They also added legendary armor to Spvp and WvW tracks. Why would suddenly a raid rework seem more plausible than a dungeon rework?

  • Astralporing.1957Astralporing.1957 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 30, 2019
    We need an easy mode, but not a hard mode

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    Easier access to legendary armor via pve undermines a vast majority of other content, most notably ascended armor (which relative to legendary gear is quite expensive, cetainly way more compared to ascended weapons to legendary weapons).

    As people from the raid scene like to point out, you can craft 10 ascended sets for a cost of a single legendary one, and that alone is enough to not undermine the worth of ascended gear. Same as with weapons.

    Full set of legendary armor cost: 1,800 gold.
    1 set of ascended armor: 300 gold.
    Cost of ascended to legendary: about 5 times.

    Okay, so it's not 10 times, but more 6-7 times. Going ascended is still cheaper (well, unless maybe if you're chrono). And that's even when forgetting about the ability to swap stats in forge. Yes, legendary armor is still very useful, as a QoL upgrade (not having to change those stats, or carry more than one armor set is quite nice), but it isn't the economic option.

    That is without getting in the insane benefits of armor versus weapons. 1 set of armor has you set for life

    Yes, set for life, for one character. But then on most classes you'd not need more than few ascended armor sets either, and you aren't likely to pay more (or even as much) for gearing as you'd pay for a legendary set.

    Where is the incentive to make legendary armor more available without drastically affecting the games economy?

    As pointed above, it wouldn't drastically affect the game economy.

    Who said raids failed? Maybe they are an insenly lucrative return for the amount of work versus reward. Raids might be some of the most lucrative content player wise, or not, none of us would know.

    Suure, raids are doing perfectly fine and the raiding population isn't shrinking to levels where even raiders start complaining about it. You definitely have nothing to worry about, and can safely ignore my posts on that issue.

    Why would suddenly a raid rework seem more plausible than a dungeon rework?

    Because dungeon rework would have required redoing them from scratch (due to the bad way they were originally coded, and the fact the people that knew that code aren't working at Anet anymore). Raids on the other hand would not require so much of a work.

    Basically, there's a big difference between fixing a content that is faulty at its core and would require major rewriting and minor tweaks to content that is coded well and does not break in unexpected places at even the slightest touch.

    One is indeed a rework, other isn't. The effort is completely different.

    The whole point of a social game is to play with the people you want to play with, not be forced to play with the people you don't.

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 30, 2019
    Raids are fine the way they are, combining bosses of various difficulties

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    Easier access to legendary armor via pve undermines a vast majority of other content, most notably ascended armor (which relative to legendary gear is quite expensive, cetainly way more compared to ascended weapons to legendary weapons).

    As people from the raid scene like to point out, you can craft 10 ascended sets for a cost of a single legendary one, and that alone is enough to not undermine the worth of ascended gear. Same as with weapons.

    Full set of legendary armor cost: 1,800 gold.
    1 set of ascended armor: 300 gold.
    Cost of ascended to legendary: about 5 times.

    Okay, so it's not 10 times, but more 6-7 times. Going ascended is still cheaper (well, unless maybe if you're chrono). And that's even when forgetting about the ability to swap stats in forge. Yes, legendary armor is still very useful, as a QoL upgrade (not having to change those stats, or carry more than one armor set is quite nice), but it isn't the economic option.

    That is without getting in the insane benefits of armor versus weapons. 1 set of armor has you set for life

    Yes, set for life, for one character. But then on most classes you'd not need more than few ascended armor sets either, and you aren't likely to pay more (or even as much) for gearing as you'd pay for a legendary set.

    So you decide to adapt your number, then ommit everything I said. Okay, now who is blind to arguments?

    Given how new and all legendary items introduced ever since generation 2 and legendary armor, I ask again:
    What makes you believe that it is in Arenanets interest to make legendary armor more accessible for pve when all legendary developments have been going in the other direction?

    Cost breakdown:
    Ascended weapons to legendary weapons: very high.

    Ascended trinkets to legendary trinkets: insanely high.

    Ascended armor to legendary armor:
    modest at best.

    I stick by my assumption on this, from a developer standpoint and keeping players as long engaged as possible, there is no incentive to make access to legendary armor easier, until you expect to shut down the game 6 months later. So it will not happen.

  • Astralporing.1957Astralporing.1957 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 30, 2019
    We need an easy mode, but not a hard mode

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    Easier access to legendary armor via pve undermines a vast majority of other content, most notably ascended armor (which relative to legendary gear is quite expensive, cetainly way more compared to ascended weapons to legendary weapons).

    As people from the raid scene like to point out, you can craft 10 ascended sets for a cost of a single legendary one, and that alone is enough to not undermine the worth of ascended gear. Same as with weapons.

    Full set of legendary armor cost: 1,800 gold.
    1 set of ascended armor: 300 gold.
    Cost of ascended to legendary: about 5 times.

    Okay, so it's not 10 times, but more 6-7 times. Going ascended is still cheaper (well, unless maybe if you're chrono). And that's even when forgetting about the ability to swap stats in forge. Yes, legendary armor is still very useful, as a QoL upgrade (not having to change those stats, or carry more than one armor set is quite nice), but it isn't the economic option.

    That is without getting in the insane benefits of armor versus weapons. 1 set of armor has you set for life

    Yes, set for life, for one character. But then on most classes you'd not need more than few ascended armor sets either, and you aren't likely to pay more (or even as much) for gearing as you'd pay for a legendary set.

    So you decide to adapt your number, then ommit everything I said. Okay, now who is blind to arguments?

    Nah, it's you that didn't see that i have addressed your arguments.

    Ascended armor to legendary armor:
    modest at best.

    Only if you compare crafting. And only because crafting is already very high. There are other, much cheaper sources though.
    Also, if you look at total cost, legendary armor set price is anything but modest. In this, legendary armor is not so different from other legendary gear. All of them are extremely costly.

    I stick by my assumption on this, from a developer standpoint and keeping players as long engaged as possible, there is no incentive to make access to legendary armor easier, until you expect to shut down the game 6 months later. So it will not happen.

    And you base your reasoning on a bad assumption - that it would matter. As i see it, the price tag attached to crafting legendary armor is high enough to keep most players from using it to obsolete ascended. People for whom that price is not a problem to a degree that they can simply decide to replace ascended gear with legendary for all their characters, and without actually having to go through a much, much greater effort? They have legendaries already, either from raids, or from other sources.

    Also, you are fixated on price of crafting ascended armor, while forgetting that most players get their sets by other means, which are much cheaper. Almost all of my multiple characters are in full ascended armor (some have more than one set) - and only a few of those were crafted. And i still have spares. In that regard, having legendary armor didn't affect me in the slightest. I'm pretty much sure it wouldn't affect others as well. By the point they'd get their legendary set, they would be swimming in ascended anyway.

    As i see it, from a developer standpoint it's better to have a content people will use from content that is dead, unless the effort to move from latter to former is simply too big. In this case, the effort wouldn't be big at all.

    The whole point of a social game is to play with the people you want to play with, not be forced to play with the people you don't.

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 30, 2019
    Raids are fine the way they are, combining bosses of various difficulties

    @Astralporing.1957 said:
    Only if you compare crafting. And only because crafting is already very high. There are other, much cheaper sources though.
    Also, if you look at total cost, legendary armor set price is anything but modest. In this, legendary armor is not so different from other legendary gear. All of them are extremely costly.

    Simply untrue, legendary armor is by far the cheapest per stat gear you can get among all legendaries. Cheaper ascended armor might alleviate this problem, but it does not make it go away.

    @Astralporing.1957 said:
    As i see it, from a developer standpoint it's better to have a content people will use from content that is dead, unless the effort to move from latter to former is simply too big. In this case, the effort wouldn't be big at all.

    and I see the longevity of the game and motivation first and foremost. Work invested is already done, player retention is an ongoing issue.

  • Astralporing.1957Astralporing.1957 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 31, 2019
    We need an easy mode, but not a hard mode

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Astralporing.1957 said:
    Only if you compare crafting. And only because crafting is already very high. There are other, much cheaper sources though.
    Also, if you look at total cost, legendary armor set price is anything but modest. In this, legendary armor is not so different from other legendary gear. All of them are extremely costly.

    Simply untrue, legendary armor is by far the cheapest per stat gear you can get among all legendaries.

    So? It's still prohibitively costly. If you're for cost effectiveness, buying legendary armor simply isn't worth it. People that get it do it for other reasons (skin, and/or QoL of not having to carry several gear sets).

    Cheaper ascended armor might alleviate this problem, but it does not make it go away.

    Sure, because that problem doesn't exist.

    @Astralporing.1957 said:
    As i see it, from a developer standpoint it's better to have a content people will use from content that is dead, unless the effort to move from latter to former is simply too big. In this case, the effort wouldn't be big at all.

    and I see the longevity of the game and motivation first and foremost. Work invested is already done, player retention is an ongoing issue.

    So do i, and what i see is that legendary armor carries with itself more grind than it might save players from doing, and that's just when considering only its material components. Not to mention that players pursuing it would have their ascended sets already.

    Thus, i do not see how making the door more open for the content it is in could have the consequence you have described. If it will have any impact at all, it will be in the opposite direction.

    The whole point of a social game is to play with the people you want to play with, not be forced to play with the people you don't.

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 31, 2019
    Raids are fine the way they are, combining bosses of various difficulties

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Astralporing.1957 said:
    Only if you compare crafting. And only because crafting is already very high. There are other, much cheaper sources though.
    Also, if you look at total cost, legendary armor set price is anything but modest. In this, legendary armor is not so different from other legendary gear. All of them are extremely costly.

    Simply untrue, legendary armor is by far the cheapest per stat gear you can get among all legendaries.

    So? It's still prohibitively costly. If you're for cost effectiveness, buying legendary armor simply isn't worth it. People that get it do it for other reasons (skin, and/or QoL of not having to carry several gear sets).

    Cheaper ascended armor might alleviate this problem, but it does not make it go away.

    Sure, because that problem doesn't exist.

    @Astralporing.1957 said:
    As i see it, from a developer standpoint it's better to have a content people will use from content that is dead, unless the effort to move from latter to former is simply too big. In this case, the effort wouldn't be big at all.

    and I see the longevity of the game and motivation first and foremost. Work invested is already done, player retention is an ongoing issue.

    So do i, and what i see is that legendary armor carries with itself more grind than it might save players from doing, and that's just when considering only its material components. Not to mention that players pursuing it would have their ascended sets already.

    Thus, i do not see how making the door more open for the content it is in could have the consequence you have described. If it will have any impact at all, it will be in the opposite direction.

    I think we are talking past each other here.

    Let me explain: I'm not in favor of restricting things. I am not in favor of keeping things locked behind time gates, farms, tedious tasks, etc.

    I do understand though that some of those things are necessary to keep players engaged.

    My first ascended armor was more tedious than my first legendary (granted, a full set ascended back then was 700 gold). So no, legendary armor is not a big grind. It's not even twice the grind of the original ascended sets back when they were introduced. At the same time legendary armor is the MOST potent upgrade a player can get from the legendary category on both cost, quality of life and build variety for multiple classes.

    As such, I question the value of making this more broadly accessible.

    @Astralporing.1957 said:
    Not to mention that players pursuing it would have their ascended sets already.

    Going to address this separately, since here too, you are wrong. Beside the fact that you get 1 full ascended set for free (2 if you count the precursor collection) while doing the achievements for legendary armor. I know of enough new players who can and will raid and are going strait for legendary armor. The ability to do so is there, and it is not that hard to begin with. There is absolutely 0 requirement for ascended gear or armor to get a legendary set in any of the 3 game modes.

    Legendary armor is too cheap (compared to other legendaries and the direction those costs have gone). It is intentionally designed this way because it was locked behind raids (and now spvp and wvw to entice people to play that content).

  • Astralporing.1957Astralporing.1957 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 31, 2019
    We need an easy mode, but not a hard mode

    @Cyninja.2954 said:
    My first ascended armor was more tedious than my first legendary

    Mine wasn't. And i've obtained it shortly after it got introduced (took me a bit because i didn't want to skip timegates via TP as some other people did). Still, yes, your first ascended set is going to be the toughest one.

    (granted, a full set ascended back then was 700 gold).

    There wasn't a legendary armor to compare either. Now that we do have legendary armor, we also have much cheaper crafting, and several other sources of ascended gear. If you attempted to get an ascended armor now, it would be much, much easier than then.

    So no, legendary armor is not a big grind.

    Not for you, but only because you have already made that grind. Remember, most veteran raiders started grinding for it a full year before it got released. When it appeared, they had both LI and materials, so of course it didn't seem hard. For someone starting now it won't be the case.

    It's not even twice the grind of the original ascended sets back when they were introduced.

    Better compare it to grind for ascended gear when legendary armor got introduced. Also, i think you don't remember the original grind all that well, because it sure wasn't that bad as you claim. Nor is the legendary grind as easy as you think.

    At the same time legendary armor is the MOST potent upgrade a player can get from the legendary category on both cost, quality of life and build variety for multiple classes.

    True, but with one exception - no legendary offers you an upgrade on cost. For every legendary out there, on cost front it is always a straight loss. And that's where your argument completely breaks down. Also something you don't mention - armor is the least important of gear upgrades. It has nowhere close to the impact weapons (that have direct impact on damage dealt) and trinkets (where most of the stats are) have on your build

    As such, I question the value of making this more broadly accessible.

    See above. You base your doubt on one point that is simply not true.

    @Astralporing.1957 said:
    Not to mention that players pursuing it would have their ascended sets already.

    Going to address this separately, since here too, you are wrong. Beside the fact that you get 1 full ascended set for free (2 if you count the precursor collection) while doing the achievements for legendary armor. I know of enough new players who can and will raid and are going strait for legendary armor. The ability to do so is there, and it is not that hard to begin with. There is absolutely 0 requirement for ascended gear or armor to get a legendary set in any of the 3 game modes.

    For highly skilled players, yeah. Players like that however are relatively rare, and are/are going to be raiding anyway (or at least the current difficulty level is not a barrier for them), so their existence doesn't change the equation in the slightest.

    Legendary armor is too cheap (compared to other legendaries and the direction those costs have gone). It is intentionally designed this way because it was locked behind raids (and now spvp and wvw to entice people to play that content).

    No. It is intentionally designed that way because it is locked behind a significant timegate. A legendary weapon you can flat out buy - and that is true not only of gen1 set, but also of gen2.5. An envoy armor however is still going to take you 2 and a half months of raiding (and a month of provisioner tokens, which, by the way, add another ~150 gold to the total price, on top of the ~1900 that efficiency calculator shows) at a minimum for the first set. Probably more, as almost noone starts full-clearing from day one. That is why it can afford to be relatively cheaper (notice: "cheaper" still doesn't mean cheap, because it is anything but that).

    The whole point of a social game is to play with the people you want to play with, not be forced to play with the people you don't.

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 31, 2019
    Raids are fine the way they are, combining bosses of various difficulties

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:
    My first ascended armor was more tedious than my first legendary

    Mine wasn't. And i've obtained it shortly after it got introduced (took me a bit because i didn't want to skip timegates via TP as some other people did). Still, yes, your first ascended set is going to be the toughest one.

    Ascended armor was close to 1k gold when it got introduced in the first month, back then 1k gold were a lot more than now. I made my first light ascended armor set after around 30-40 days (for around 700 gold). Not sure how I remember this incorrectly.

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:
    (granted, a full set ascended back then was 700 gold).

    There wasn't a legendary armor to compare either. Now that we do have legendary armor, we also have much cheaper crafting, and several other sources of ascended gear. If you attempted to get an ascended armor now, it would be much, much easier than then.

    I already said that cheaper ascended armor, while reducing the problem, does almost nothing to make it go away. Legendary armor remains the most cost efficient per stat and most useful upgrade. This is even more true with ascended trinkets (where 1 trinket costs 3/4 of an entire legendary armor set) and T2.5 legendary weapons cost way more than an entire set. The tendency for legendary cost has been going up, not down.

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:
    So no, legendary armor is not a big grind.

    Not for you, but only because you have already made that grind. Remember, most veteran raiders started grinding for it a full year before it got released. When it appeared, they had both LI and materials, so of course it didn't seem hard. For someone starting now it won't be the case.

    The biggest time gate for legendary armor is LI. The first set of LI can be gained as fast as 10 weeks if one is dedicated enough. The remaining materials are insignificant compared to other legendary items. The pve time gate is vastly lower than the spvp and wvw time gates which are close to 1 year respectively and require people play game modes which are less popular than pve.

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:
    It's not even twice the grind of the original ascended sets back when they were introduced.

    Better compare it to grind for ascended gear when legendary armor got introduced. Also, i think you don't remember the original grind all that well, because it sure wasn't that bad as you claim. Nor is the legendary grind as easy as you think.

    Yes, back when legendary armor was introduced, ascended sets were around 500 gold. Again, how is this relevant when legendary armor is that efficient?

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:
    At the same time legendary armor is the MOST potent upgrade a player can get from the legendary category on both cost, quality of life and build variety for multiple classes.

    True, but with one exception - no legendary offers you an upgrade on cost. For every legendary out there, on cost front it is always a straight loss. And that's where your argument completely breaks down.

    Actually, your argument breaks down. I didn't say legendary was more cost efficient than ascended. I said legendary armor is more cost efficient to ANY other legendary. You have not shown this to be untrue OR given alternatives how these effects might get reduced. Your only counter argument remains: it doesn't matter, which is simply not true at the difference in cost we are looking at.

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:
    As such, I question the value of making this more broadly accessible.

    See above. You base your doubt on one point that is simply not true.

    Given how costs for legendaries have continuously increased, my assumption remains more true than your wishful thinking.

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Astralporing.1957 said:
    Not to mention that players pursuing it would have their ascended sets already.

    Going to address this separately, since here too, you are wrong. Beside the fact that you get 1 full ascended set for free (2 if you count the precursor collection) while doing the achievements for legendary armor. I know of enough new players who can and will raid and are going strait for legendary armor. The ability to do so is there, and it is not that hard to begin with. There is absolutely 0 requirement for ascended gear or armor to get a legendary set in any of the 3 game modes.

    For highly skilled players, yeah. Players like that however are relatively rare, and are/are going to be raiding anyway (or at least the current difficulty level is not a barrier for them), so their existence doesn't change the equation in the slightest.

    For low skilled players there is pvp and wvw armor which are heavily time gated. Again, how does implementing easy to acquire short term pve legendary help the game? You are actively arguing that players who currently might be locked out of legendary armor will remain more engaged in the game when given access to it.

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:
    Legendary armor is too cheap (compared to other legendaries and the direction those costs have gone). It is intentionally designed this way because it was locked behind raids (and now spvp and wvw to entice people to play that content).

    No. It is intentionally designed that way because it is locked behind a significant timegate.

    PvE legendary armor is not a significant time gate. Not compared to any of the other legendary armors, which actually have some what of a time gate.

    @Astralporing.1957 said:
    A legendary weapon you can flat out buy - and that is true not only of gen1 set, but also of gen2.5.

    Yes, you can flat out buy gen 1s, and this has already been considered a mistake. Even then, they are extremely more expensive than legendary armor (an entire set mind you).

    As to gen 2 and 2.5s : Untrue, please go check on the amount of account bound materials required for gen 2s. The time investment even with ALL the gold materials covered is above 40 hours for each one. Barely more than required for a full set of legendary armor. You are vastly out of touch how long crafting different legendaries takes.

    Final point from me on this:
    I don't have to show that the status quo needs changing. You need to show that there is a significant benefit to both the game and the developer from making legendary armor more accessible. The only benefit here is easier access for a majority of the player base (which is a valid argument). The downside is potential loss in long term goals and player retention. You apply wishful thinking, while I am looking at how legenary gear since the armor implementation was introduced. That's the different approach I see here.

  • Astralporing.1957Astralporing.1957 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 31, 2019
    We need an easy mode, but not a hard mode

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:
    My first ascended armor was more tedious than my first legendary

    Mine wasn't. And i've obtained it shortly after it got introduced (took me a bit because i didn't want to skip timegates via TP as some other people did). Still, yes, your first ascended set is going to be the toughest one.

    Ascended armor was close to 1k gold when it got introduced in the first month, back then 1k gold were a lot more than now. I made my first light ascended armor set after around 30-40 days (for around 700 gold). Not sure how I remember this incorrectly.

    yet you do remember it incorrectly.

    https://www.reddit.com/r/Guildwars2/comments/2clkqc/total_mat_cost_for_ascended_set/
    That includes the costs of getting your relevant crafting profession from 400 to 500. Those prices are from mid 2014, but they aren't much different from what i remember from the beginning of the year (they're probably somewhat cheaper than initially, but that's all).

    Edit: https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/1459010-Ascended-Armor-Does-it-worth-it?p=25394647&viewfull=1#post25394647 <- was partially right. Forgot about the light armor vs other weight sets price disparity. I farmed all the silk myself (which as i remember wasn't really hard, i could easily get enough silk per day to match the daily crafting gates - and i wasn't really even trying, no dedicated farming, just playing a lot), so wasn't affected by the initial lack of it on TP (and thus the price spike).

    Hint: yes, the cost of ascended armor might have been close to 800g shortly after it got introduced, but only in one situation: if you decided to bypass the daily crafting gate. In the first month the price of damask on TP was astronomical, but that wasn't due to the worth of materials themselves, but merely a result of people rushing (or not having lev 500 crafts yet), and the short-term silk price spike. Investing in craft and doing the stuff yourself allowed you to ignore that problem completely and practically halved the price of the whole set. So i guess you've been rushing.

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:
    (granted, a full set ascended back then was 700 gold).

    There wasn't a legendary armor to compare either. Now that we do have legendary armor, we also have much cheaper crafting, and several other sources of ascended gear. If you attempted to get an ascended armor now, it would be much, much easier than then.

    I already said that cheaper ascended armor, while reducing the problem, does almost nothing to make it go away. Legendary armor remains the most cost efficient per stat and most useful upgrade. This is even more true with ascended trinkets (where 1 trinket costs 3/4 of an entire legendary armor set) and T2.5 legendary weapons cost way more than an entire set. The tendency for legendary cost has been going up, not down.

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:
    So no, legendary armor is not a big grind.

    Not for you, but only because you have already made that grind. Remember, most veteran raiders started grinding for it a full year before it got released. When it appeared, they had both LI and materials, so of course it didn't seem hard. For someone starting now it won't be the case.

    The biggest time gate for legendary armor is LI. The first set of LI can be gained as fast as 10 weeks if one is dedicated enough. The remaining materials are insignificant compared to other legendary items. The pve time gate is vastly lower than the spvp and wvw time gates which are close to 1 year respectively and require people play game modes which are less popular than pve.

    WvW one can be obtained in 21 weeks. PvP indeed is longer, as it requires 3 PvP seasons (still not a year, though). Basically, WvW timegate is double the raid one, while pvp is triple.

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:
    It's not even twice the grind of the original ascended sets back when they were introduced.

    Better compare it to grind for ascended gear when legendary armor got introduced. Also, i think you don't remember the original grind all that well, because it sure wasn't that bad as you claim. Nor is the legendary grind as easy as you think.

    Yes, back when legendary armor was introduced, ascended sets were around 500 gold. Again, how is this relevant when legendary armor is that efficient?

    Because it isn't efficient at all. You still lose gold by going after it over ascended gear.

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:
    At the same time legendary armor is the MOST potent upgrade a player can get from the legendary category on both cost, quality of life and build variety for multiple classes.

    True, but with one exception - no legendary offers you an upgrade on cost. For every legendary out there, on cost front it is always a straight loss. And that's where your argument completely breaks down.

    Actually, your argument breaks down. I didn't say legendary was more cost efficient than ascended. I said legendary armor is more cost efficient to ANY other legendary.

    No, actually you claimed that legendary armor will make people stop pursuing ascended gear. Which is only true if it would be more efficient than said ascended gear. It isn't, so your argument breaks down completely.

    You have not shown this to be untrue OR given alternatives how these effects might get reduced.

    Because that was irrelevant to the discussion. Relative efficiency of different legendary types to each other have absolutely no impact on making their corresponding ascended gear irrelevant. While pursuing legendary armor over ascended you may lose less than in case of weapons, but the truth is, you still lose. As long as that part remains, what you're afraid of won't happen.

    For low skilled players there is pvp and wvw armor which are heavily time gated. Again, how does implementing easy to acquire short term pve legendary help the game? You are actively arguing that players who currently might be locked out of legendary armor will remain more engaged in the game when given access to it.

    Well, giving them one more thing to pursue can hardly make them less engaged.

    @Astralporing.1957 said:
    A legendary weapon you can flat out buy - and that is true not only of gen1 set, but also of gen2.5.

    Yes, you can flat out buy gen 1s, and this has already been considered a mistake. Even then, they are extremely more expensive than legendary armor (an entire set mind you).

    As to gen 2 and 2.5s : Untrue, please go check on the amount of account bound materials required for gen 2s. The time investment even with ALL the gold materials covered is above 40 hours for each one. Barely more than required for a full set of legendary armor. You are vastly out of touch how long crafting different legendaries takes.

    No, you are. People are crafting new 2.5 legendaries less than an hour after new LS patch that intoduced them. Some do it within minutes. Because 2.5 contains no time gates that cannot be easily bypassed with more gold. It's a straight mat sink, nothing more.
    Where did you get those 40 hours, by the way? I'm really curious.

    Final point from me on this:
    I don't have to show that the status quo needs changing. You need to show that there is a significant benefit to both the game and the developer from making legendary armor more accessible.

    Nah, i'm simply predicting. You just don't like what i am predicting. I really don't care if the devs will follow that path (that seems quite obvious for me) or if they let raids crash and burn, wasting all their prior effort.

    The only benefit here is easier access for a majority of the player base (which is a valid argument).

    Exactly. And it's the one that counts.

    The downside is potential loss in long term goals and player retention.

    And i point to you there is no loss. Legendary armor (no matter which one) for almost anyone is still a much longer goal than even several sets of ascended armor.

    You apply wishful thinking, while I am looking at how legenary gear since the armor implementation was introduced. That's the different approach I see here.

    No. You concentrate on comparing prices of different legendaries with each other which happens to be of no relevance to the topic we're discussing. For the reasons i outlined above.

    The whole point of a social game is to play with the people you want to play with, not be forced to play with the people you don't.

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 31, 2019
    Raids are fine the way they are, combining bosses of various difficulties

    @Astralporing.1957 said:
    Well, giving them one more thing to pursue can hardly make them less engaged.

    You are not comparing short term versus long term engagement. But then again we are both disagreeing on what short and long tem goals could be it seems.

    @Astralporing.1957 said:
    WvW one can be obtained in 21 weeks. PvP indeed is longer, as it requires 3 PvP seasons (still not a year, though). Basically, WvW timegate is double the raid one, while pvp is triple.

    Spvp is time gated since seasons are not always up, so you have to commit quite some time in those time frames. WvW takes a significant amount of game play time over both spvp and pve (we are talking 2-4 hours per day for those 21 weeks). Neither of both come close to the pve one in time commitment. So both comparative armors have heavy draw backs versus the pve one.

    @Astralporing.1957 said:
    Where did you get those 40 hours, by the way? I'm really curious.

    Since you are not checking gw2eff I shall quote myself from this thread (https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/65805/how-best-to-approach-the-more-tedious-parts-of-my-first-legendary-weapon-pharus#latest) dealing exactly with this question:

    Account bound materials required:

    • Gift of Battle (around 6-8 hours of WvW)
    • 514 Obsidian Shards (1,079,400 Karma, unless you use other methods to acquire Mystic Clovers which too require more time)
    • 1,404 Philosopher's Stone (meaning it's 1,404 Spirit Shards)
    • Bloodstone Shard (another 200 Spirit Shards)
    • 250 Crystalline Ore (at around 40-50 per Dragon Stand meta, that's around 5 full Dragon Stand metas. Another 6-7 hours)
    • 250 Ley Line Spark
    • 250 Pile of Auric Dust
    • 250 Bottle of Airship Oil
    • Gift of the Jungle (Map complete Dragon Stand, easily done while farming Crystaline Ore)
    • Gift of the Fleet (Map complete Verdant Brink)
    • Gift of Tarir (Map compete Auric Basin)
    • 290 Tribute to Spero (1 costs 20 unbound magic, volatile magic or other resource. Given that Unbounb Magic is probably easiest to farm, 5800 Unbound Magic is 3-4 trips through the Winterberry Forest)
    • multiple other lesser account bound materials not worth mentioning

    Even if the gold required is probably the by far biggest time sink, I'd estimate the other materials at around 20-30 hours of farming. That is if you know where and how to get these materials efficiently. Can't really make an estimate for Karma and Spirit Shards since I haven't farmed those in ages.

    That is pretty much the entire materials required when making just about any 2.5 legendary which are account bound (the question asked was specifically how long it would take IF one had all the gold required). Please notice that some of the materials required are not valued time wise in this calculation, like the over 1 million karma or the 1.4k Spirit Shards. I made a very generous estimate on how long things might take. In reality is is a lot more likely that the time for account bound materials is closer to 50-100 hours of farming. This does not include ANY time for the collections of the v2 legendaries.

    @Astralporing.1957 said:
    No. You concentrate on comparing prices of different legendaries with each other which happens to be of no relevance to the topic we're discussing. For the reasons i outlined above.

    I compare effort and effect of different legendarys in the game right now. I look at how legendarys since armor have been introduced into the game (and the associated cost).

    You simply decide to ignore these actual facts (and the only data we could draw upon) replacing them with assumptions which are un-grounded.

  • Astralporing.1957Astralporing.1957 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 31, 2019
    We need an easy mode, but not a hard mode

    You still haven't addressed the main point i made about how your argument is flawed at its core. You know, the one where all your reasoning hinges on legendary armor making ascended gear obsolete. Which can only be true if getting legendary armor would be more efficient and less grindy than the ascended option.

    Which, so it happens, it isn't.

    And if that point isn't true, then all opening legendary armor for more users can do is give them more grind options and goals than they already had.

    You bring up a lot of examples, make a lot of comparisons of many things, but it hadn't escaped my attention that you haven't actually contended my point even once. All you do is to try to misdirect the discussion.

    Yes, legendary weapons and trinkets are more pricey than their ascended counterparts than it is the case of armor. Yes, Anet apparently doesn't have uniform policy about legendary gear prices. So? How exactly that has anything to do with your main premise?

    Answer me this: How allowing people that weren't able to do that before to pursue legendary armor from raids remove longterm goals from them, if pursuing said armor is still a more longterm (and more costly) goal than gearing up in ascended?

    You are trying to persuade us that this is somehow true, against all logic, but you cannot acually explain why, can you.

    The whole point of a social game is to play with the people you want to play with, not be forced to play with the people you don't.

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 31, 2019
    Raids are fine the way they are, combining bosses of various difficulties

    @Astralporing.1957 said:
    You still haven't addressed the main point i made about how your argument is flawed at its core. You know, the one where all your reasoning hinges on legendary armor making ascended gear obsolete. Which can only be true if getting legendary armor would be more efficient and less grindy than the ascended option.

    I have addressed this, you just keep ignoring it. Legendary armor makes ascended armor more obsolete than ANY other legendary gear in the game. I have repeatedly explained to you that legendary armor is the MOST cost efficient legenary in the game (by far!). Within the legendary gear, it is the most likely to make ascended obsolete.

    @Astralporing.1957 said:
    Answer me this: How allowing people that weren't able to do that before to pursue legendary armor from raids remove longterm goals from them, if pursuing said armor is still a more longterm (and more costly) goal than gearing up in ascended?

    It removes the necessity for multiple ascended sets. It does so more efficiently and faster than the spvp and wvw armor via pve. It does so better than weapons and is comparable to trinkets (which are vastly more expensive on a scale which I don't even want to do the math for given how ascended back items for example are as cheap at 30 gold). That's what I am comparing it to.

    The price difference between ascended armor and legendary is already vastly smaller than any other legendary gear. Stop ignoring simple economics.

    The chance for a NEW legendary armor in pve which does not require raids and is vastly more expensive, is highly more likely than making raid legendary armor more easily available.

  • Astralporing.1957Astralporing.1957 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 31, 2019
    We need an easy mode, but not a hard mode

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Astralporing.1957 said:
    You still haven't addressed the main point i made about how your argument is flawed at its core. You know, the one where all your reasoning hinges on legendary armor making ascended gear obsolete. Which can only be true if getting legendary armor would be more efficient and less grindy than the ascended option.

    I have addressed this, you just keep ignoring it. Legendary armor makes ascended armor more obsolete than ANY other legendary gear in the game.

    Well, legendary weapons can hardly make ascended armor obsolete...

    I have repeatedly explained to you that legendary armor is the MOST cost efficient legenary in the game (by far!). Within the legendary gear, it is the most likely to make ascended obsolete.

    What you haven't explained - what you refuse to answer - is how it can do that if it's not efficient compared to ascended armor.
    Hint: it's not "most efficient'. It's merely the least inefficient. it's still inefficient though.

    @Astralporing.1957 said:
    Answer me this: How allowing people that weren't able to do that before to pursue legendary armor from raids remove longterm goals from them, if pursuing said armor is still a more longterm (and more costly) goal than gearing up in ascended?

    It removes the necessity for multiple ascended sets.

    Yes, but it does so at a pricetag that could let you have 6-7 of those ascended sets at the same time (much more if you're just changing stats to adjust to new builds, as changing stats is much cheaper). Practically noone needs to have 6-7 gear sets at the same time. Many builds do fine with the same set since the beginning of the game (zerks + scholars).

    It does so more efficiently and faster than the spvp and wvw armor via pve. It does so better than weapons and is comparable to trinkets (which are vastly more expensive on a scale which I don't even want to do the math for given how ascended back items for example are as cheap at 30 gold). That's what I am comparing it to.

    And yet it is still vastly inefficient. It doesn't matter if you overpay for other legendaries more, if you still overpay for legendary armor. And you do overpay.

    The price difference between ascended armor and legendary is already vastly smaller than any other legendary gear. Stop ignoring simple economics.

    The price difference is still way too big for your concerns to be viable. Stop ignoring it as well.

    In the whole discussion that last price difference is actually the only thing that matters - and it is the very thing you keep ignoring.

    The whole point of a social game is to play with the people you want to play with, not be forced to play with the people you don't.

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 31, 2019
    Raids are fine the way they are, combining bosses of various difficulties

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Astralporing.1957 said:
    You still haven't addressed the main point i made about how your argument is flawed at its core. You know, the one where all your reasoning hinges on legendary armor making ascended gear obsolete. Which can only be true if getting legendary armor would be more efficient and less grindy than the ascended option.

    I have addressed this, you just keep ignoring it. Legendary armor makes ascended armor more obsolete than ANY other legendary gear in the game.

    Well, legendary weapons can hardly make ascended armor obsolete...

    Oh come on, you can't be serious. Obviously respective to their slot.... If you want to troll, say so.

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Astralporing.1957 said:
    Answer me this: How allowing people that weren't able to do that before to pursue legendary armor from raids remove longterm goals from them, if pursuing said armor is still a more longterm (and more costly) goal than gearing up in ascended?

    It removes the necessity for multiple ascended sets.

    Yes, but it does so at a pricetag that could let you have 6-7 of those ascended sets at the same time (much more if you're just changing stats to adjust to new builds, as changing stats is much cheaper). Practically noone needs to have 6-7 gear sets at the same time. Many builds do fine with the same set since the beginning of the game (zerks + scholars).

    • Berserker
    • Viper
    • Minstrel
    • Harrier
    • Trailblazer
    • Assassins

    Those are all meta. Those are all used among the same armor type (except medium armor which sees the least diversity among its 3 classes). Many of those use different runes for different content. Having 1 legendary set at the same cost as 5 of those sets, is a direct improvement over having the unique sets. This is not mirrored among ANY legendary gear at the given price tag (except armor).

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:
    It does so more efficiently and faster than the spvp and wvw armor via pve. It does so better than weapons and is comparable to trinkets (which are vastly more expensive on a scale which I don't even want to do the math for given how ascended back items for example are as cheap at 30 gold). That's what I am comparing it to.

    And yet it is still vastly inefficient. It doesn't matter if you overpay for other legendaries more, if you still overpay for legendary armor. And you do overpay.

    See, you say overpay for other legendaries. I say underpay for armor legendary. Given legendary armor is the anomaly, and the standard cost (which you call overpay) is consistent for recent legendary additions, I'd say making the underpayed legendary gear more easily available might be an issue.

    The price difference between ascended armor and legendary is already vastly smaller than any other legendary gear. Stop ignoring simple economics.

    The price difference is still way too big for your concerns to be viable. Stop ignoring it as well.

    That is your OPINION. I am basing my opinion in the increasing cost for new legendary items. My opinion is grounded in how the game has developed and how all other legendary gear has been implemented. Yours is not. Your opinion is quite literally based on your subjective feeling that the price for legendary armor is already high enough. None of the in-game comparative metrics support this assumption.

    @Astralporing.1957 said:
    In the whole discussion that last price difference is actually the only thing that matters - and it is the very thing you keep ignoring.

    Yes, the price difference between ascended and legendary. Which in no way has supporting your argument.

    I'm done here. You want to not take legendary cost seriously, have either limited or no experience in crafting different types of legendaries and are just blindly demanding something be implemented. Which one can do and which might happen. I'm not seeing it given how legendary gear has been getting implemented. Feel free to keep your and other people hopes up until that turns into disappointment.

  • Astralporing.1957Astralporing.1957 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 31, 2019
    We need an easy mode, but not a hard mode

    @Cyninja.2954 said:
    That is your OPINION. I am basing my opinion in the increasing cost for new legendary items.

    And i am basing mine on actual prices.

    My opinion is grounded in how the game has developed and how all other legendary gear has been implemented. Yours is not.

    Yes, because, again, mine is grounded in prices. Yours is not.

    Your opinion is quite literally based on your subjective feeling that the price for legendary armor is already high enough. None of the in-game comparative metrics support this assumption.

    What in-game comparative metrics? Certainly not the ones you bring up, because those are abou completely different things. And there's certainly no metric that shows that my "subjective feeling" is wrong.

    @Astralporing.1957 said:
    In the whole discussion that last price difference is actually the only thing that matters - and it is the very thing you keep ignoring.

    Yes, the price difference between ascended and legendary. Which in no way has supporting your argument.

    I'm done here. You want to not take legendary cost seriously

    No, the one not taking legendary armor cost seriously is you.

    , have either limited or no experience in crafting different types of legendaries

    lol... you couldn't be more wrong.

    and are just blindly demanding something be implemented.

    I don't demand anything. I don't have any personal stake in it (i've got my legendary armor already). Personally i don't really care how Anet is going to solve that problem anymore. The one that seems to be arguing strongly against it is you. And the only reason why i'm even responding is because your argument doesn't hold up at closer scrutiny.

    Which one can do and which might happen. I'm not seeing it given how legendary gear has been getting implemented.

    We shall see then. I'm still pretty sure that my predictions will be much closer to what it's going to eventually happen than yours.

    The whole point of a social game is to play with the people you want to play with, not be forced to play with the people you don't.

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 31, 2019
    Raids are fine the way they are, combining bosses of various difficulties

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:
    That is your OPINION. I am basing my opinion in the increasing cost for new legendary items.

    And i am basing mine on actual prices.

    My opinion is grounded in how the game has developed and how all other legendary gear has been implemented. Yours is not.

    Yes, because, again, mine is grounded in prices. Yours is not.

    Ad Infinitum, legendary back piece, released with HoT, total cost: 1,276 gold
    Perfected envoy heavy armor, released May 2nd, 2017, total cost: 1,957 gold
    Flames of War T2.5, released May 2nd 2017, total cost: 2,331 gold
    <insert any legendary weapon T2 released after May 2nd 2017, total cost: 2,200+ gold
    Aurora, legendary trinket, released July 25 2017, total cost: 1,295 gold

    Armor is the most cost efficient legendary in the game, by a large margin. Want me to add stats to those or comparison to ascended costs?
    Armor allows for the most customization (among all legendary gear) while being the cheapest in both:

    • upgrading from ascended to legendary (weapons go from 40-50 gold average ascended to 1.4k+ gold, trinkets go from 15-30 gold to over 1.2k gold)
    • upgrading per stats (legendary armor is by far the cheapest legendary gear per stat point on it)

    Armor is locked out per game mode:

    • 10 weeks minimum in pve, 20 weeks on further sets
    • 21 weeks of 2-4 hours daily in wvw
    • 3 spvp seasons in spvp with specific time periods

    Armor is the only legendary which can surpass the usefulness of 4-6 sets of ascended (edit: and with that I mean 4-6 pieces of gear on the respective slot).

    Keep making bold statements. You are not in any way grounding your opinion in prices. If armor were made any easier to get, it would quite literally intrude on ascended gearing territory.

    @Astralporing.1957 said:
    I don't demand anything. I don't have any personal stake in it (i've got my legendary armor already).

    So do I, all 3 of them, as well as since this morning a total of 30 crafted legendaries (edit: minor correction, 31 legendaries, I forgot to count The Shining Blade since it doesn't require a Gift of Exploration it thew my math off).

    @Astralporing.1957 said:
    Personally i don't really care how Anet is going to solve that problem anymore. The one that seems to be arguing strongly against it is you. And the only reason why i'm even responding is because your argument doesn't hold up at closer scrutiny.

    You not understanding my argument is not the same as it not holding up under scrutiny.

  • Kylden Ar.3724Kylden Ar.3724 Member ✭✭✭
    We need both easy and hard modes

    I think we could use the 3 difficulties, but I would say easy mode gets nothing more than blues and greens (and of course seeing what passes for the story). It should be for training for the real raid, like people keep saying they want to do.

    I don't do raids much, but I have completed a couple. My main reason for not doing it more is time, so an easy mode just to get an idea how and to see the story without as much effort appeals to me, and I think a hard mode for the people that have normal to clockwork now would be nice for them.

    Leader of PvE/WvW Havoc Guild - Tyrian Adventure Corporation [TACO] - Kaineng since the start, and till KN is no more.

    Do not fear simplification of the game, there is elegance in simplicity that allows more time for playing and less time building.

  • Astralporing.1957Astralporing.1957 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 1, 2019
    We need an easy mode, but not a hard mode

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:
    That is your OPINION. I am basing my opinion in the increasing cost for new legendary items.

    And i am basing mine on actual prices.

    My opinion is grounded in how the game has developed and how all other legendary gear has been implemented. Yours is not.

    Yes, because, again, mine is grounded in prices. Yours is not.

    Ad Infinitum, legendary back piece, released with HoT, total cost: 1,276 gold
    Perfected envoy heavy armor, released May 2nd, 2017, total cost: 1,957 gold
    Flames of War T2.5, released May 2nd 2017, total cost: 2,331 gold
    <insert any legendary weapon T2 released after May 2nd 2017, total cost: 2,200+ gold
    Aurora, legendary trinket, released July 25 2017, total cost: 1,295 gold

    Ah, but you're comparing wrong prices. It doesn't matter if legendary armor is relatively cheaper than legendary weapons or trinkets, because legendary weapon price has nothing to do with ascended armor desirability, nor legendary armor has anything to do with ascended weapons. The only prices you mentioned is the legendary armor one (which you did bring up), and ascended armor (which you didn't).

    So, let's bring up those prices for comparison:
    the cheapest ascended set (thackeray) costs ~235/245/260 gold for heavy/light/medium
    The most costly ascended set (pahua) costs ~340/345/360 gold for heavy/light/medium
    for comparison, the most popular set (zojja) costs ~270/280/295 gold for heavy/light/medium
    As we can see, even at the most costly option, you still can get 5-6 sets for the cost of a single legendary. At the most cheapest, you can get as much as 8 (with Zojja, you can get 7).
    Let's think of some additional points here:
    1. The most costly weight option is medium armor (the one you yourself said you don' need many sets of).
    2. Instead of crafting the most costly stat options, it's more efficient to pick a cheap option and restat
    3. crafting by itself is the most costly and least efficient way of obtaining ascended gear (there are other, cheaper options)
    4. Not many people need that many sets at the same time
    5. Those people that might need it are playing either high-end instanced pve content, or WvW (or both) and are heavily invested in those
    6. People that are heavily invested in those contents already have access to legendary armor.
    7. and people that do not need 6+ sets at the same time can stat-swap in forge for much lower price, which extends the number of sets that has to be equalled by a lot.

    Armor is the most cost efficient legendary in the game, by a large margin.

    Sure, but it's stil not cost-efficient compared to ascended, for all the reasons outlined above. And as long as it isn't, there's no fear that it would replace ascended.

    Want me to add stats to those or comparison to ascended costs?
    Armor allows for the most customization (among all legendary gear) while being the cheapest in both:

    • upgrading from ascended to legendary (weapons go from 40-50 gold average ascended to 1.4k+ gold, trinkets go from 15-30 gold to over 1.2k gold)
    • upgrading per stats (legendary armor is by far the cheapest legendary gear per stat point on it)

    And yet armor is the least efficient gear of all options. Well, correction, backpacks are, but armor is close second. The order of gearing up is always weapon, then trinkets, and only then armor (and backpack last). Because the whole armor set offers only around 2% overall upgrade from exotic to ascended, compared to 6% from a single primary weapon. In a way, efficiency-wise single mainhand/twohand legendary weapon is worth 3 legendary armor sets.

    Armor is locked out per game mode:

    • 10 weeks minimum in pve, 20 weeks on further sets
    • 21 weeks of 2-4 hours daily in wvw
    • 3 spvp seasons in spvp with specific time periods

    Yes, it is indeed timegated, and that wouldn't change even after making raids more widely open.

    Armor is the only legendary which can surpass the usefulness of 4-6 sets of ascended (edit: and with that I mean 4-6 pieces of gear on the respective slot).

    As pointed above it is equal to 6-8 sets, and only if you use the most inefficient and costly way to obtain them (crafting), and need all those sets at the same time.

    Keep making bold statements. You are not in any way grounding your opinion in prices. If armor were made any easier to get, it would quite literally intrude on ascended gearing territory.

    If it was made cheaper to get, then yes, probably. We weren't talking about making it cheaper, though.

    @Cyninja.2954 said:
    You not understanding my argument is not the same as it not holding up under scrutiny.

    Agreed. And yet i do understand your arguments, and they still don't hold up under scrutiny.

    The whole point of a social game is to play with the people you want to play with, not be forced to play with the people you don't.

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭
    Raids are fine the way they are, combining bosses of various difficulties

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:
    That is your OPINION. I am basing my opinion in the increasing cost for new legendary items.

    And i am basing mine on actual prices.

    My opinion is grounded in how the game has developed and how all other legendary gear has been implemented. Yours is not.

    Yes, because, again, mine is grounded in prices. Yours is not.

    Ad Infinitum, legendary back piece, released with HoT, total cost: 1,276 gold
    Perfected envoy heavy armor, released May 2nd, 2017, total cost: 1,957 gold
    Flames of War T2.5, released May 2nd 2017, total cost: 2,331 gold
    <insert any legendary weapon T2 released after May 2nd 2017, total cost: 2,200+ gold
    Aurora, legendary trinket, released July 25 2017, total cost: 1,295 gold

    Ah, but you're comparing wrong prices. It doesn't matter if legendary armor is relatively cheaper than legendary weapons or trinkets, because legendary weapon price has nothing to do with ascended armor desirability, nor legendary armor has anything to do with ascended weapons. The only prices you mentioned is the legendary armor one (which you did bring up), and ascended armor (which you didn't).

    So, let's bring up those prices for comparison:
    the cheapest ascended set (thackeray) costs ~235/245/260 gold for heavy/light/medium
    The most costly ascended set (pahua) costs ~340/345/360 gold for heavy/light/medium
    for comparison, the most popular set (zojja) costs ~270/280/295 gold for heavy/light/medium
    As we can see, even at the most costly option, you still can get 5-6 sets for the cost of a single legendary. At the most cheapest, you can get as much as 8 (with Zojja, you can get 7).
    Let's think of some additional points here:
    1. The most costly weight option is medium armor (the one you yourself said you don' need many sets of).
    2. Instead of crafting the most costly stat options, it's more efficient to pick a cheap option and restat
    3. crafting by itself is the most costly and least efficient way of obtaining ascended gear (there are other, cheaper options)
    4. Not many people need that many sets at the same time
    5. Those people that might need it are playing either high-end instanced pve content, or WvW (or both) and are heavily invested in those
    6. People that are heavily invested in those contents already have access to legendary armor.
    7. and people that do not need 6+ sets at the same time can stat-swap in forge for much lower price, which extends the number of sets that has to be equalled by a lot.

    Armor is the most cost efficient legendary in the game, by a large margin.

    Sure, but it's stil not cost-efficient compared to ascended, for all the reasons outlined above. And as long as it isn't, there's no fear that it would replace ascended.

    Want me to add stats to those or comparison to ascended costs?
    Armor allows for the most customization (among all legendary gear) while being the cheapest in both:

    • upgrading from ascended to legendary (weapons go from 40-50 gold average ascended to 1.4k+ gold, trinkets go from 15-30 gold to over 1.2k gold)
    • upgrading per stats (legendary armor is by far the cheapest legendary gear per stat point on it)

    And yet armor is the least efficient gear of all options. Well, correction, backpacks are, but armor is close second. The order of gearing up is always weapon, then trinkets, and only then armor (and backpack last). Because the whole armor set offers only around 2% overall upgrade from exotic to ascended, compared to 6% from a single primary weapon. In a way, efficiency-wise single mainhand/twohand legendary weapon is worth 3 legendary armor sets.

    Armor is locked out per game mode:

    • 10 weeks minimum in pve, 20 weeks on further sets
    • 21 weeks of 2-4 hours daily in wvw
    • 3 spvp seasons in spvp with specific time periods

    Yes, it is indeed timegated, and that wouldn't change even after making raids more widely open.

    Armor is the only legendary which can surpass the usefulness of 4-6 sets of ascended (edit: and with that I mean 4-6 pieces of gear on the respective slot).

    As pointed above it is equal to 6-8 sets, and only if you use the most inefficient and costly way to obtain them (crafting), and need all those sets at the same time.

    Keep making bold statements. You are not in any way grounding your opinion in prices. If armor were made any easier to get, it would quite literally intrude on ascended gearing territory.

    If it was made cheaper to get, then yes, probably. We weren't talking about making it cheaper, though.

    @Cyninja.2954 said:
    You not understanding my argument is not the same as it not holding up under scrutiny.

    Agreed. And yet i do understand your arguments, and they still don't hold up under scrutiny.

    So you redid my math, came to the nearly same result with maybe 1-2 extra sets. Ignored that legendary armor at 5-6 (even at 8 sets) is the superior option to individual sets (exchanging runes is that good on armor, yes). That is the status quo right now.

    You did the math, the most rational option at the moment for people with access to raids is:

    • stick to exotic armor
    • get the first ascended set from the collection
    • save for legendary armor

    Again, that is the status quo, right now. If legendary armor is made more easily accessible, it will directly make the little reason for going ascended (which is heavily lockout based currebtly) completely negligible.

    This is not the case for any other legendary slot. Hence I do not believe this will happen.

  • Astralporing.1957Astralporing.1957 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 1, 2019
    We need an easy mode, but not a hard mode

    @Cyninja.2954 said:
    You did the math, the most rational option at the moment for people with access to raids is:

    • stick to exotic armor
    • get the first ascended set from the collection
    • save for legendary armor

    It is a rational option for mesmers, maybe (and even for them it's iffy - a lot of mesmers i know play either chrono or mirage, not both). For any other class? Not so much, even most raiders do not need that many sets to make legendary armor look good. Of people that do not currently raid, only WvWers might have a need of several sets. So, again, the only people for whom it might come even close to being even (instead of being a straight loss) are people that already have access to legendary armor. In case of the people that would gain access to it by making raids easier? It means those people would do more grind and spend more gold and mats that they would do otherwise. Anet wins in that case.

    Again, that is the status quo, right now.

    It's not. Not even among raiders. Those i know got legendary either for ease of use, or for prestige (or decided to ot get it at all). Noone thought it was actually efficient. In fact, if you look at the legendary armor threads on this forum (and on the previous one), you will see that practically all veteran raiders kept claiming over and over again that it isn't sensible (and that it is useful for raiders only and not for anyone else).

    If legendary armor is made more easily accessible, it will directly make the little reason for going ascended (which is heavily lockout based currebtly) completely negligible.

    It won't. Most players simply do not have that much gold to burn on a single armor set, no matter how convenient it would be. Most players do not need kittenton of sets of ascended armor either, one (max two) is enough for them.

    This is not the case for any other legendary slot.

    It's not the case for legendary armor either.

    The whole point of a social game is to play with the people you want to play with, not be forced to play with the people you don't.

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭
    Raids are fine the way they are, combining bosses of various difficulties

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:
    You did the math, the most rational option at the moment for people with access to raids is:

    • stick to exotic armor
    • get the first ascended set from the collection
    • save for legendary armor

    It is a rational option for mesmers, maybe (and even for them it's iffy - a lot of mesmers i know play either chrono or mirage, not both). For any other class? Not so much, even most raiders do not need that many sets to make legendary armor look good. Of people that do not currently raid, only WvWers might have a need of several sets. So, again, the only people for whom it might come even close to being even (instead of being a straight loss) are people that already have access to legendary armor. In case of the people that would gain access to it by making raids easier? It means those people would do more grind and spend more gold and mats that they would do otherwise. Anet wins in that case.

    Just about any chrono plays mirage by now, unless they are sub 100 LI. Legendary armor is of use to Guardian, Warrior, Renegade, Mesmer, necromancer and even druid (if they run soulbeast and ondi builds, which many do not). That is for pve only. Wvw opens up way more builds and uses. Bascially any class which runs 3 or 4 builds benefits form legendary armor (when using build templates).

    The people who gain access to raids and legendary automatically also do not spend the money/gold on ascended. I certainly have not spent a single gold on ANY ascended gear for any class of mine which has legendary ever since they got it. I'm about to make a 4th legendary for my pve Firebrand as we speak and I have access to over 30 ascended sets.

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:
    Again, that is the status quo, right now.

    It's not. Not even among raiders. Those i know got legendary either for ease of use, or for prestige (or decided to ot get it at all). Noone thought it was actually efficient. In fact, if you look at the legendary armor threads on this forum (and on the previous one), you will see that practically all veteran raiders kept claiming over and over again that it isn't sensible (and that it is useful for raiders only and not for anyone else).

    This was true before arc build templates. It's not true for the time after. It will be even less true if we should ever get build templates. Also you are now arguing from a standpoint of people who already have access to this gear.

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:
    If legendary armor is made more easily accessible, it will directly make the little reason for going ascended (which is heavily lockout based currebtly) completely negligible.

    It won't. Most players simply do not have that much gold to burn on a single armor set, no matter how convenient it would be. Most players do not need kittenton of sets of ascended armor either, one (max two) is enough for them.

    I think you deliberately underestimate how much gold many pve players have who do not have access to raids and are unwilling to spvp or wvw.

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:
    This is not the case for any other legendary slot.

    It's not the case for legendary armor either.

    Going by mere difference in cost and value, it is. Everything else is pure speculation based on personal values.

    I already said: it is way more likely to see a new legendary set for pve which is closer in cost to other pve non raid legendaries than more open access to raid legendaries.

  • Lonami.2987Lonami.2987 Member ✭✭✭
    We need both easy and hard modes

    @gonandro.4768 said:
    This thread....86 pages.
    Ok let's be realistic, easy mode is NOT gonna happen. We got 1 (O N E) Raid wing in 2018.
    Get good in playing your toon/Roll a chrono/Buy commander tag and make your own groups.
    That's how you get into raids and kill bosses.

    Peace.

    Have you stopped to wonder why we only got one raid in a whole year?

    Maybe it's because there isn't enough people raiding, hm?

  • steki.1478steki.1478 Member ✭✭✭✭
    We need a hard mode, but not an easy mode

    @Lonami.2987 said:

    @gonandro.4768 said:
    This thread....86 pages.
    Ok let's be realistic, easy mode is NOT gonna happen. We got 1 (O N E) Raid wing in 2018.
    Get good in playing your toon/Roll a chrono/Buy commander tag and make your own groups.
    That's how you get into raids and kill bosses.

    Peace.

    Have you stopped to wonder why we only got one raid in a whole year?

    Maybe it's because there isn't enough people raiding, hm?

    More people won't magically attract more devs.

    Fractals have difficulty levels yet you still see people complaining how certain fractals are too hard at t4 (without even bothering to try lower tiers). How many groups do you see in t2/t3 fractals anyway?

  • Astralporing.1957Astralporing.1957 Member ✭✭✭✭
    We need an easy mode, but not a hard mode

    @steki.1478 said:
    More people won't magically attract more devs.

    I agree. There's nothing magical in the fact that amount of people playing certain type of content tends to influence how much time and effort devs are willing to spend on it.

    The whole point of a social game is to play with the people you want to play with, not be forced to play with the people you don't.

  • steki.1478steki.1478 Member ✭✭✭✭
    We need a hard mode, but not an easy mode

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @steki.1478 said:
    More people won't magically attract more devs.

    I agree. There's nothing magical in the fact that amount of people playing certain type of content tends to influence how much time and effort devs are willing to spend on it.

    It's same devs who are working on that content though. It's not like they can bring story/gem store devs since they are working on separate content, which actually brings them money. Hiring more devs for content that doesn't bring any money doesn't really make much sense, which is pretty much why guilds no longer have dev team and why pvp/wvw updates are also quite slow compared to mentioned ones.

    Motivation does nothing if you're limited on number of devs that work on specific content.

  • Astralporing.1957Astralporing.1957 Member ✭✭✭✭
    We need an easy mode, but not a hard mode

    Sure, but remember, that "raid team" is now also helping out with fractals. Which they haven't been doing initially. That means they have less time to devote on raids. Additionally, lot of work is done by the core team, which also can shift priorities (and probably already have done so). All those things are going to have an impact.

    The whole point of a social game is to play with the people you want to play with, not be forced to play with the people you don't.

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭
    Raids have problems, but we need a better solution

    @Lonami.2987 said:

    @gonandro.4768 said:
    This thread....86 pages.
    Ok let's be realistic, easy mode is NOT gonna happen. We got 1 (O N E) Raid wing in 2018.
    Get good in playing your toon/Roll a chrono/Buy commander tag and make your own groups.
    That's how you get into raids and kill bosses.

    Peace.

    Have you stopped to wonder why we only got one raid in a whole year?

    Maybe it's because there isn't enough people raiding, hm?

    We also had only one Fractal in a whole year even though fractals have all those difficulty tiers and many more people supposedly run fractals.

  • flog.3485flog.3485 Member ✭✭✭
    Raids are fine the way they are, combining bosses of various difficulties

    @Astralporing.1957 said:
    Sure, but remember, that "raid team" is now also helping out with fractals. Which they haven't been doing initially. That means they have less time to devote on raids. Additionally, lot of work is done by the core team, which also can shift priorities (and probably already have done so). All those things are going to have an impact.

    Honestly it doesn't really matter. Whether the team in charge of instanced group content releases fractal or raids, it would be in Anet best interest to make sure that all the players who participate in instanced group content also participate in raids imo, rather than trying to create raid easy mode for open world players.

    And in that persperctive, it makes perfect sense to have only team in charge of both raids in fractal, which could easily introduce players to raid mechanics through fractal tiers, if necessary.

  • Astralporing.1957Astralporing.1957 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 11, 2019
    We need an easy mode, but not a hard mode

    Yeah, sure. The raid team working now on other things doesn't mean they are devoting less effort to raids than they've done before. Nothing has changed, Anet interest in raids doesn't wane at all.[/sarcasm]

    The whole point of a social game is to play with the people you want to play with, not be forced to play with the people you don't.

  • flog.3485flog.3485 Member ✭✭✭
    Raids are fine the way they are, combining bosses of various difficulties

    @Astralporing.1957 said:
    Yeah, sure. The raid team working now on other things doesn't mean they are devoting less effort to raids than they've done before. Nothing has changed, Anet interest in raids doesn't wane at all.[/sarcasm]

    Well I am pretty sure they wanted to time the release of raids/fractal with each living story update from now on. It was actually the reason why they merged both team.

    What is so different between a raid encounter and a fractal encounter at this point according to you ? Don’t you think the original fractal designers can also bring their expertise to some raid encounters ? And vice-versa ?

  • Raids are fine the way they are, combining bosses of various difficulties

    Can we not just have an NPC that gives you a squad wide buff to basically decrease incoming and increase outgoing damage so much that raid encounters are trivial enough? Decrease rewards from boss chests affected by the buff to a bunch of item bags and call it easy mode raids. Have that NPC introduced into new raids 1-2 months after the initial release and it wont affect actual progress groups. That way everyone gets candy without any weird scaling programming required. (Is that how this works? I have no idea about game development)

  • RaidsAreEasyAF.8652RaidsAreEasyAF.8652 Member ✭✭✭
    edited February 11, 2019
    We need a hard mode, but not an easy mode

    @flog.3485 said:
    Well I am pretty sure they wanted to time the release of raids/fractal with each living story update from now on. It was actually the reason why they merged both team.

    Yeah, Ill believe it when i see it.
    I still remember 6 wings per year.

    Btw. is there a way to change what i voted for?

  • Linken.6345Linken.6345 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @RaidsAreEasyAF.8652 said:

    @flog.3485 said:
    Well I am pretty sure they wanted to time the release of raids/fractal with each living story update from now on. It was actually the reason why they merged both team.

    Yeah, Ill believe it when i see it.
    I still remember 6 wings per year.

    Btw. is there a way to change what i voted for?

    They never promised 6 wings per year.
    How many are you able to crank out at a maximum was the question.

  • flog.3485flog.3485 Member ✭✭✭
    Raids are fine the way they are, combining bosses of various difficulties

    @RaidsAreEasyAF.8652 said:

    @flog.3485 said:
    Well I am pretty sure they wanted to time the release of raids/fractal with each living story update from now on. It was actually the reason why they merged both team.

    Yeah, Ill believe it when i see it.
    I still remember 6 wings per year.

    Btw. is there a way to change what i voted for?

    Yes, sadly there is no way to be sure it is in fact gonna happen. But there is a higher chance it is gonna happen if the teams are not seperate like before.

  • We need a hard mode, but not an easy mode

    @Linken.6345 said:
    They never promised 6 wings per year.
    How many are you able to crank out at a maximum was the question.

    I dont really expected them to release 6 Wings a year anyway.
    Then again, i also expected more than 1 every 9 months or so.

  • Astralporing.1957Astralporing.1957 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 12, 2019
    We need an easy mode, but not a hard mode

    @flog.3485 said:

    @RaidsAreEasyAF.8652 said:

    @flog.3485 said:
    Well I am pretty sure they wanted to time the release of raids/fractal with each living story update from now on. It was actually the reason why they merged both team.

    Yeah, Ill believe it when i see it.
    I still remember 6 wings per year.

    Btw. is there a way to change what i voted for?

    Yes, sadly there is no way to be sure it is in fact gonna happen. But there is a higher chance it is gonna happen if the teams are not seperate like before.

    Nah, having the teams not separated just makes it easier to use the formerly "raid devs" for other stuff instead of raids. It is also a clear sign that raids are no longer important enough to have their own dedicated team. It's probably good for fractals, though. We do see more of fractal stuff lately.

    The whole point of a social game is to play with the people you want to play with, not be forced to play with the people you don't.

  • flog.3485flog.3485 Member ✭✭✭
    Raids are fine the way they are, combining bosses of various difficulties

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @flog.3485 said:

    @RaidsAreEasyAF.8652 said:

    @flog.3485 said:
    Well I am pretty sure they wanted to time the release of raids/fractal with each living story update from now on. It was actually the reason why they merged both team.

    Yeah, Ill believe it when i see it.
    I still remember 6 wings per year.

    Btw. is there a way to change what i voted for?

    Yes, sadly there is no way to be sure it is in fact gonna happen. But there is a higher chance it is gonna happen if the teams are not seperate like before.

    Nah, having the teams not separated just makes it easier to use the formerly "raid devs" for other stuff instead of raids. It is also a clear sign that raids are no longer important enough to have their own dedicated team. It's probably good for fractals, though. We do see more of fractal stuff lately.

    I understand your position but really I will just never be able to agree with you.

    Honestly it is just not raids that had problems: it is the basic concept that they always had issues, since the beginning, to develop instanced group content (let’s remember the dungeon team and the lack of instanced content in open world ever since after core game content).

    I don’t think it is a lack of importance, but rather a lack of resources; obviously they identified that, spreading their resources too thin between two teams working on a really slow pace to deliver content every 10 months, is not the best way to support the release of instanced group content.

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