Do raids need easy/normal/hard difficulty mode? [merged] - Page 89 — Guild Wars 2 Forums

Do raids need easy/normal/hard difficulty mode? [merged]

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Comments

  • Astralporing.1957Astralporing.1957 Member ✭✭✭✭
    We need an easy mode, but not a hard mode

    @mortrialus.3062 said:
    Yeah, the fact that LFR made raids a boring slog where mechanics are irrelevant and every boss feels the same and drained all the excitement of beating your raid boss for the first time and that making you feel like a powerful epic hero of legend. Which has a heck of a lot to do with the cost of easy mode.

    Exagerrate much?
    Notice also, that it's not something inherently tied to easy mode. FFXIV for example doesn't seem to have the same problem. Even if story/hard mode fights are generally really easy compared to extremes.

    The whole point of a social game is to play with the people you want to play with, not be forced to play with the people you don't.

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭
    Raids are fine the way they are, combining bosses of various difficulties

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @mortrialus.3062 said:
    Yeah, the fact that LFR made raids a boring slog where mechanics are irrelevant and every boss feels the same and drained all the excitement of beating your raid boss for the first time and that making you feel like a powerful epic hero of legend. Which has a heck of a lot to do with the cost of easy mode.

    Exagerrate much?
    Notice also, that it's not something inherently tied to easy mode. FFXIV for example doesn't seem to have the same problem. Even if story/hard mode fights are generally really easy compared to extremes.

    Not sure that's an exaggeration. At least not a big one.

    I can't recall a single LFR experience where I thought the content was enjoyable past getting loot in WoW. The only thing ever remotely fun was chatting with friends on the side.

    I'm genuinely interested though, could people tell me if the actual experience of running the LFR is enjoyable to them? When trying to ignore the loot. That is, if you thought about how the LFR experience was, and you subtracted the loot, would you keep running them weekly? What about reduced loot?

  • phs.6089phs.6089 Member ✭✭✭✭
    We need both easy and hard modes

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @mortrialus.3062 said:
    Yeah, the fact that LFR made raids a boring slog where mechanics are irrelevant and every boss feels the same and drained all the excitement of beating your raid boss for the first time and that making you feel like a powerful epic hero of legend. Which has a heck of a lot to do with the cost of easy mode.

    Exagerrate much?
    Notice also, that it's not something inherently tied to easy mode. FFXIV for example doesn't seem to have the same problem. Even if story/hard mode fights are generally really easy compared to extremes.

    Not sure that's an exaggeration. At least not a big one.

    I can't recall a single LFR experience where I thought the content was enjoyable past getting loot in WoW. The only thing ever remotely fun was chatting with friends on the side.

    I'm genuinely interested though, could people tell me if the actual experience of running the LFR is enjoyable to them? When trying to ignore the loot. That is, if you thought about how the LFR experience was, and you subtracted the loot, would you keep running them weekly? What about reduced loot?

    I have played a game that had easy,modes and something like lfr. Yeah you Q you don't care to talk to people, you just go there for daily and loot. You go to ahrd mode only with people you know that won't cause problem to the run. You take friends and guildies to easy mod for training runs.
    I don't see how this 2 easy mode and lfr are connected.
    But going to run with friends guildies no matter what mod wasn't excluded, especially if you were in a good guild that with good people.
    This start to be even more fun when they added guild missions to raids/dungeons.

    "There is always a lighthouse, there's always a man, there's always a city."

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 2, 2019
    Raids are fine the way they are, combining bosses of various difficulties

    @phs.6089 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @mortrialus.3062 said:
    Yeah, the fact that LFR made raids a boring slog where mechanics are irrelevant and every boss feels the same and drained all the excitement of beating your raid boss for the first time and that making you feel like a powerful epic hero of legend. Which has a heck of a lot to do with the cost of easy mode.

    Exagerrate much?
    Notice also, that it's not something inherently tied to easy mode. FFXIV for example doesn't seem to have the same problem. Even if story/hard mode fights are generally really easy compared to extremes.

    Not sure that's an exaggeration. At least not a big one.

    I can't recall a single LFR experience where I thought the content was enjoyable past getting loot in WoW. The only thing ever remotely fun was chatting with friends on the side.

    I'm genuinely interested though, could people tell me if the actual experience of running the LFR is enjoyable to them? When trying to ignore the loot. That is, if you thought about how the LFR experience was, and you subtracted the loot, would you keep running them weekly? What about reduced loot?

    I have played a game that had easy,modes and something like lfr. Yeah you Q you don't care to talk to people, you just go there for daily and loot. You go to ahrd mode only with people you know that won't cause problem to the run. You take friends and guildies to easy mod for training runs.
    I don't see how this 2 easy mode and lfr are connected.
    But going to run with friends guildies no matter what mod wasn't excluded, especially if you were in a good guild that with good people.
    This start to be even more fun when they added guild missions to raids/dungeons.

    Easy Mode and LFR are connected, because in order to allow maximum success for LFR mode content, difficulty needs to be kept in check. That obviously does not mean every easy mode has to be via LFR and as such asking about LFR in a topic about easy mode raids can be misleading, true.

    My question is directly aimed at people who enjoy LFR. I'm fine with people telling me they enjoy it, but I want every one to dig deep and honestly analyze for them selves:
    do they enjoy the LFR, or do they enjoy the perks in form of easy loot for example?

    One of both is impossible to replicate in GW2 due to how the reward structure is designed in this game (no progressive loot system which allows for disposable gear/loot).

    That's beside the point that LFR for raids in this game would be near impossible to design given the specific classes required and shifting balance patches on roles. LFG would work for content such as dungeons and maybe low rank fractals.

  • phs.6089phs.6089 Member ✭✭✭✭
    We need both easy and hard modes

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @phs.6089 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @mortrialus.3062 said:
    Yeah, the fact that LFR made raids a boring slog where mechanics are irrelevant and every boss feels the same and drained all the excitement of beating your raid boss for the first time and that making you feel like a powerful epic hero of legend. Which has a heck of a lot to do with the cost of easy mode.

    Exagerrate much?
    Notice also, that it's not something inherently tied to easy mode. FFXIV for example doesn't seem to have the same problem. Even if story/hard mode fights are generally really easy compared to extremes.

    Not sure that's an exaggeration. At least not a big one.

    I can't recall a single LFR experience where I thought the content was enjoyable past getting loot in WoW. The only thing ever remotely fun was chatting with friends on the side.

    I'm genuinely interested though, could people tell me if the actual experience of running the LFR is enjoyable to them? When trying to ignore the loot. That is, if you thought about how the LFR experience was, and you subtracted the loot, would you keep running them weekly? What about reduced loot?

    I have played a game that had easy,modes and something like lfr. Yeah you Q you don't care to talk to people, you just go there for daily and loot. You go to ahrd mode only with people you know that won't cause problem to the run. You take friends and guildies to easy mod for training runs.
    I don't see how this 2 easy mode and lfr are connected.
    But going to run with friends guildies no matter what mod wasn't excluded, especially if you were in a good guild that with good people.
    This start to be even more fun when they added guild missions to raids/dungeons.

    Easy Mode and LFR are connected, because in order to allow maximum success for LFR mode content, difficulty needs to be kept in check. That obviously does not mean every easy mode has to be via LFR and as such asking about LFR in a topic about easy mode raids can be misleading, true.

    My question is directly aimed at people who enjoy LFR. I'm fine with people telling me they enjoy it, but I want every one to dig deep and honestly analyze for them selves:
    do they enjoy the LFR, or do they enjoy the perks in form of easy loot for example?

    One of both is impossible to replicate in GW2 due to how the reward structure is designed in this game (no progressive loot system which allows for disposable gear/loot).

    That's beside the point that LFR for raids in this game would be near impossible to design given the specific classes required and shifting balance patches on roles. LFG would work for content such as dungeons and maybe low rank fractals.

    It isn't that difficult to make Q per roles really. Might be some issues with people mentality 'i want druid not firebrand'.

    "There is always a lighthouse, there's always a man, there's always a city."

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭
    Raids are fine the way they are, combining bosses of various difficulties

    @phs.6089 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @phs.6089 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @mortrialus.3062 said:
    Yeah, the fact that LFR made raids a boring slog where mechanics are irrelevant and every boss feels the same and drained all the excitement of beating your raid boss for the first time and that making you feel like a powerful epic hero of legend. Which has a heck of a lot to do with the cost of easy mode.

    Exagerrate much?
    Notice also, that it's not something inherently tied to easy mode. FFXIV for example doesn't seem to have the same problem. Even if story/hard mode fights are generally really easy compared to extremes.

    Not sure that's an exaggeration. At least not a big one.

    I can't recall a single LFR experience where I thought the content was enjoyable past getting loot in WoW. The only thing ever remotely fun was chatting with friends on the side.

    I'm genuinely interested though, could people tell me if the actual experience of running the LFR is enjoyable to them? When trying to ignore the loot. That is, if you thought about how the LFR experience was, and you subtracted the loot, would you keep running them weekly? What about reduced loot?

    I have played a game that had easy,modes and something like lfr. Yeah you Q you don't care to talk to people, you just go there for daily and loot. You go to ahrd mode only with people you know that won't cause problem to the run. You take friends and guildies to easy mod for training runs.
    I don't see how this 2 easy mode and lfr are connected.
    But going to run with friends guildies no matter what mod wasn't excluded, especially if you were in a good guild that with good people.
    This start to be even more fun when they added guild missions to raids/dungeons.

    Easy Mode and LFR are connected, because in order to allow maximum success for LFR mode content, difficulty needs to be kept in check. That obviously does not mean every easy mode has to be via LFR and as such asking about LFR in a topic about easy mode raids can be misleading, true.

    My question is directly aimed at people who enjoy LFR. I'm fine with people telling me they enjoy it, but I want every one to dig deep and honestly analyze for them selves:
    do they enjoy the LFR, or do they enjoy the perks in form of easy loot for example?

    One of both is impossible to replicate in GW2 due to how the reward structure is designed in this game (no progressive loot system which allows for disposable gear/loot).

    That's beside the point that LFR for raids in this game would be near impossible to design given the specific classes required and shifting balance patches on roles. LFG would work for content such as dungeons and maybe low rank fractals.

    It isn't that difficult to make Q per roles really. Might be some issues with people mentality 'i want druid not firebrand'.

    It is when different bosses have different setups and when the performance difference between roles is this huge.

    Try giving alacrity or quickness on a warrior, or heal with a thief or mesmer. That's only this balance cycle btw. Not even mentioning things like hand kiting.

  • phs.6089phs.6089 Member ✭✭✭✭
    We need both easy and hard modes

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @phs.6089 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @phs.6089 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @mortrialus.3062 said:
    Yeah, the fact that LFR made raids a boring slog where mechanics are irrelevant and every boss feels the same and drained all the excitement of beating your raid boss for the first time and that making you feel like a powerful epic hero of legend. Which has a heck of a lot to do with the cost of easy mode.

    Exagerrate much?
    Notice also, that it's not something inherently tied to easy mode. FFXIV for example doesn't seem to have the same problem. Even if story/hard mode fights are generally really easy compared to extremes.

    Not sure that's an exaggeration. At least not a big one.

    I can't recall a single LFR experience where I thought the content was enjoyable past getting loot in WoW. The only thing ever remotely fun was chatting with friends on the side.

    I'm genuinely interested though, could people tell me if the actual experience of running the LFR is enjoyable to them? When trying to ignore the loot. That is, if you thought about how the LFR experience was, and you subtracted the loot, would you keep running them weekly? What about reduced loot?

    I have played a game that had easy,modes and something like lfr. Yeah you Q you don't care to talk to people, you just go there for daily and loot. You go to ahrd mode only with people you know that won't cause problem to the run. You take friends and guildies to easy mod for training runs.
    I don't see how this 2 easy mode and lfr are connected.
    But going to run with friends guildies no matter what mod wasn't excluded, especially if you were in a good guild that with good people.
    This start to be even more fun when they added guild missions to raids/dungeons.

    Easy Mode and LFR are connected, because in order to allow maximum success for LFR mode content, difficulty needs to be kept in check. That obviously does not mean every easy mode has to be via LFR and as such asking about LFR in a topic about easy mode raids can be misleading, true.

    My question is directly aimed at people who enjoy LFR. I'm fine with people telling me they enjoy it, but I want every one to dig deep and honestly analyze for them selves:
    do they enjoy the LFR, or do they enjoy the perks in form of easy loot for example?

    One of both is impossible to replicate in GW2 due to how the reward structure is designed in this game (no progressive loot system which allows for disposable gear/loot).

    That's beside the point that LFR for raids in this game would be near impossible to design given the specific classes required and shifting balance patches on roles. LFG would work for content such as dungeons and maybe low rank fractals.

    It isn't that difficult to make Q per roles really. Might be some issues with people mentality 'i want druid not firebrand'.

    It is when different bosses have different setups and when the performance difference between roles is this huge.

    Try giving alacrity or quickness on a warrior, or heal with a thief or mesmer. That's only this balance cycle btw. Not even mentioning things like hand kiting.

    I understand but easy mode won't be so dependent on meta

    "There is always a lighthouse, there's always a man, there's always a city."

  • mortrialus.3062mortrialus.3062 Member ✭✭✭✭
    Raids are fine the way they are, combining bosses of various difficulties

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @mortrialus.3062 said:
    Yeah, the fact that LFR made raids a boring slog where mechanics are irrelevant and every boss feels the same and drained all the excitement of beating your raid boss for the first time and that making you feel like a powerful epic hero of legend. Which has a heck of a lot to do with the cost of easy mode.

    Exagerrate much?

    Not in the slightest. Faceroll raids, like LFR in WoW now, will never ever elicit this type of response where 10 friend cry out in joy over the feeling of actually accomplishing something.

    The Psychomancer: Mesmer Elite Specialization Suggestion

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭
    Raids are fine the way they are, combining bosses of various difficulties

    @phs.6089 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @phs.6089 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @phs.6089 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @mortrialus.3062 said:
    Yeah, the fact that LFR made raids a boring slog where mechanics are irrelevant and every boss feels the same and drained all the excitement of beating your raid boss for the first time and that making you feel like a powerful epic hero of legend. Which has a heck of a lot to do with the cost of easy mode.

    Exagerrate much?
    Notice also, that it's not something inherently tied to easy mode. FFXIV for example doesn't seem to have the same problem. Even if story/hard mode fights are generally really easy compared to extremes.

    Not sure that's an exaggeration. At least not a big one.

    I can't recall a single LFR experience where I thought the content was enjoyable past getting loot in WoW. The only thing ever remotely fun was chatting with friends on the side.

    I'm genuinely interested though, could people tell me if the actual experience of running the LFR is enjoyable to them? When trying to ignore the loot. That is, if you thought about how the LFR experience was, and you subtracted the loot, would you keep running them weekly? What about reduced loot?

    I have played a game that had easy,modes and something like lfr. Yeah you Q you don't care to talk to people, you just go there for daily and loot. You go to ahrd mode only with people you know that won't cause problem to the run. You take friends and guildies to easy mod for training runs.
    I don't see how this 2 easy mode and lfr are connected.
    But going to run with friends guildies no matter what mod wasn't excluded, especially if you were in a good guild that with good people.
    This start to be even more fun when they added guild missions to raids/dungeons.

    Easy Mode and LFR are connected, because in order to allow maximum success for LFR mode content, difficulty needs to be kept in check. That obviously does not mean every easy mode has to be via LFR and as such asking about LFR in a topic about easy mode raids can be misleading, true.

    My question is directly aimed at people who enjoy LFR. I'm fine with people telling me they enjoy it, but I want every one to dig deep and honestly analyze for them selves:
    do they enjoy the LFR, or do they enjoy the perks in form of easy loot for example?

    One of both is impossible to replicate in GW2 due to how the reward structure is designed in this game (no progressive loot system which allows for disposable gear/loot).

    That's beside the point that LFR for raids in this game would be near impossible to design given the specific classes required and shifting balance patches on roles. LFG would work for content such as dungeons and maybe low rank fractals.

    It isn't that difficult to make Q per roles really. Might be some issues with people mentality 'i want druid not firebrand'.

    It is when different bosses have different setups and when the performance difference between roles is this huge.

    Try giving alacrity or quickness on a warrior, or heal with a thief or mesmer. That's only this balance cycle btw. Not even mentioning things like hand kiting.

    I understand but easy mode won't be so dependent on meta

    True, in which case it is useless for practice. So it boils down to: is it worth to have easy mode so people can see the zones and boss models?

  • phs.6089phs.6089 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 2, 2019
    We need both easy and hard modes

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @phs.6089 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @phs.6089 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @phs.6089 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @mortrialus.3062 said:
    Yeah, the fact that LFR made raids a boring slog where mechanics are irrelevant and every boss feels the same and drained all the excitement of beating your raid boss for the first time and that making you feel like a powerful epic hero of legend. Which has a heck of a lot to do with the cost of easy mode.

    Exagerrate much?
    Notice also, that it's not something inherently tied to easy mode. FFXIV for example doesn't seem to have the same problem. Even if story/hard mode fights are generally really easy compared to extremes.

    Not sure that's an exaggeration. At least not a big one.

    I can't recall a single LFR experience where I thought the content was enjoyable past getting loot in WoW. The only thing ever remotely fun was chatting with friends on the side.

    I'm genuinely interested though, could people tell me if the actual experience of running the LFR is enjoyable to them? When trying to ignore the loot. That is, if you thought about how the LFR experience was, and you subtracted the loot, would you keep running them weekly? What about reduced loot?

    I have played a game that had easy,modes and something like lfr. Yeah you Q you don't care to talk to people, you just go there for daily and loot. You go to ahrd mode only with people you know that won't cause problem to the run. You take friends and guildies to easy mod for training runs.
    I don't see how this 2 easy mode and lfr are connected.
    But going to run with friends guildies no matter what mod wasn't excluded, especially if you were in a good guild that with good people.
    This start to be even more fun when they added guild missions to raids/dungeons.

    Easy Mode and LFR are connected, because in order to allow maximum success for LFR mode content, difficulty needs to be kept in check. That obviously does not mean every easy mode has to be via LFR and as such asking about LFR in a topic about easy mode raids can be misleading, true.

    My question is directly aimed at people who enjoy LFR. I'm fine with people telling me they enjoy it, but I want every one to dig deep and honestly analyze for them selves:
    do they enjoy the LFR, or do they enjoy the perks in form of easy loot for example?

    One of both is impossible to replicate in GW2 due to how the reward structure is designed in this game (no progressive loot system which allows for disposable gear/loot).

    That's beside the point that LFR for raids in this game would be near impossible to design given the specific classes required and shifting balance patches on roles. LFG would work for content such as dungeons and maybe low rank fractals.

    It isn't that difficult to make Q per roles really. Might be some issues with people mentality 'i want druid not firebrand'.

    It is when different bosses have different setups and when the performance difference between roles is this huge.

    Try giving alacrity or quickness on a warrior, or heal with a thief or mesmer. That's only this balance cycle btw. Not even mentioning things like hand kiting.

    I understand but easy mode won't be so dependent on meta

    True, in which case it is useless for practice. So it boils down to: is it worth to have easy mode so people can see the zones and boss models?

    I beg to differ, easy mods should not be facetanking, just mech should be bit forgiving. Just a bit but enough to punish for facetanking.
    That is the meaning of easy mod, to teach. In case of GW2 closes analogue would be T3s.
    yes a party of exp players can facetank alot in t3s but new players wipe there for same thing.

    "There is always a lighthouse, there's always a man, there's always a city."

  • mortrialus.3062mortrialus.3062 Member ✭✭✭✭
    Raids are fine the way they are, combining bosses of various difficulties

    @phs.6089 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @phs.6089 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @phs.6089 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @phs.6089 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @mortrialus.3062 said:
    Yeah, the fact that LFR made raids a boring slog where mechanics are irrelevant and every boss feels the same and drained all the excitement of beating your raid boss for the first time and that making you feel like a powerful epic hero of legend. Which has a heck of a lot to do with the cost of easy mode.

    Exagerrate much?
    Notice also, that it's not something inherently tied to easy mode. FFXIV for example doesn't seem to have the same problem. Even if story/hard mode fights are generally really easy compared to extremes.

    Not sure that's an exaggeration. At least not a big one.

    I can't recall a single LFR experience where I thought the content was enjoyable past getting loot in WoW. The only thing ever remotely fun was chatting with friends on the side.

    I'm genuinely interested though, could people tell me if the actual experience of running the LFR is enjoyable to them? When trying to ignore the loot. That is, if you thought about how the LFR experience was, and you subtracted the loot, would you keep running them weekly? What about reduced loot?

    I have played a game that had easy,modes and something like lfr. Yeah you Q you don't care to talk to people, you just go there for daily and loot. You go to ahrd mode only with people you know that won't cause problem to the run. You take friends and guildies to easy mod for training runs.
    I don't see how this 2 easy mode and lfr are connected.
    But going to run with friends guildies no matter what mod wasn't excluded, especially if you were in a good guild that with good people.
    This start to be even more fun when they added guild missions to raids/dungeons.

    Easy Mode and LFR are connected, because in order to allow maximum success for LFR mode content, difficulty needs to be kept in check. That obviously does not mean every easy mode has to be via LFR and as such asking about LFR in a topic about easy mode raids can be misleading, true.

    My question is directly aimed at people who enjoy LFR. I'm fine with people telling me they enjoy it, but I want every one to dig deep and honestly analyze for them selves:
    do they enjoy the LFR, or do they enjoy the perks in form of easy loot for example?

    One of both is impossible to replicate in GW2 due to how the reward structure is designed in this game (no progressive loot system which allows for disposable gear/loot).

    That's beside the point that LFR for raids in this game would be near impossible to design given the specific classes required and shifting balance patches on roles. LFG would work for content such as dungeons and maybe low rank fractals.

    It isn't that difficult to make Q per roles really. Might be some issues with people mentality 'i want druid not firebrand'.

    It is when different bosses have different setups and when the performance difference between roles is this huge.

    Try giving alacrity or quickness on a warrior, or heal with a thief or mesmer. That's only this balance cycle btw. Not even mentioning things like hand kiting.

    I understand but easy mode won't be so dependent on meta

    True, in which case it is useless for practice. So it boils down to: is it worth to have easy mode so people can see the zones and boss models?

    I beg to differ, easy mods should not be facetanking, just mech should be bit forgiving. Just a bit but enough to punish for facetanking.
    That is the meaning of easy mod, to teach. In case of GW2 closes analogue would be T3s.
    yes a party of exp players can facetank alot in t3s but new players wipe there for same thing.

    You're the only person in this thread advocating such a thing. All the other easy mode advocates want it to present 0 challenge so everyone can do it with 100% of the rewards as well. One person advocated that all in game rewards specifically Legendary Armor as their example and skins should be available through a reward track you gain credit for no matter what you do in game, just as long as you're playing you make progress on your reward track.

    The Psychomancer: Mesmer Elite Specialization Suggestion

  • phs.6089phs.6089 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 2, 2019
    We need both easy and hard modes

    @mortrialus.3062 said:

    @phs.6089 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @phs.6089 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @phs.6089 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @phs.6089 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @mortrialus.3062 said:
    Yeah, the fact that LFR made raids a boring slog where mechanics are irrelevant and every boss feels the same and drained all the excitement of beating your raid boss for the first time and that making you feel like a powerful epic hero of legend. Which has a heck of a lot to do with the cost of easy mode.

    Exagerrate much?
    Notice also, that it's not something inherently tied to easy mode. FFXIV for example doesn't seem to have the same problem. Even if story/hard mode fights are generally really easy compared to extremes.

    Not sure that's an exaggeration. At least not a big one.

    I can't recall a single LFR experience where I thought the content was enjoyable past getting loot in WoW. The only thing ever remotely fun was chatting with friends on the side.

    I'm genuinely interested though, could people tell me if the actual experience of running the LFR is enjoyable to them? When trying to ignore the loot. That is, if you thought about how the LFR experience was, and you subtracted the loot, would you keep running them weekly? What about reduced loot?

    I have played a game that had easy,modes and something like lfr. Yeah you Q you don't care to talk to people, you just go there for daily and loot. You go to ahrd mode only with people you know that won't cause problem to the run. You take friends and guildies to easy mod for training runs.
    I don't see how this 2 easy mode and lfr are connected.
    But going to run with friends guildies no matter what mod wasn't excluded, especially if you were in a good guild that with good people.
    This start to be even more fun when they added guild missions to raids/dungeons.

    Easy Mode and LFR are connected, because in order to allow maximum success for LFR mode content, difficulty needs to be kept in check. That obviously does not mean every easy mode has to be via LFR and as such asking about LFR in a topic about easy mode raids can be misleading, true.

    My question is directly aimed at people who enjoy LFR. I'm fine with people telling me they enjoy it, but I want every one to dig deep and honestly analyze for them selves:
    do they enjoy the LFR, or do they enjoy the perks in form of easy loot for example?

    One of both is impossible to replicate in GW2 due to how the reward structure is designed in this game (no progressive loot system which allows for disposable gear/loot).

    That's beside the point that LFR for raids in this game would be near impossible to design given the specific classes required and shifting balance patches on roles. LFG would work for content such as dungeons and maybe low rank fractals.

    It isn't that difficult to make Q per roles really. Might be some issues with people mentality 'i want druid not firebrand'.

    It is when different bosses have different setups and when the performance difference between roles is this huge.

    Try giving alacrity or quickness on a warrior, or heal with a thief or mesmer. That's only this balance cycle btw. Not even mentioning things like hand kiting.

    I understand but easy mode won't be so dependent on meta

    True, in which case it is useless for practice. So it boils down to: is it worth to have easy mode so people can see the zones and boss models?

    I beg to differ, easy mods should not be facetanking, just mech should be bit forgiving. Just a bit but enough to punish for facetanking.
    That is the meaning of easy mod, to teach. In case of GW2 closes analogue would be T3s.
    yes a party of exp players can facetank alot in t3s but new players wipe there for same thing.

    You're the only person in this thread advocating such a thing. All the other easy mode advocates want it to present 0 challenge so everyone can do it with 100% of the rewards as well. One person advocated that all in game rewards specifically Legendary Armor as their example and skins should be available through a reward track you gain credit for no matter what you do in game, just as long as you're playing you make progress on your reward track.

    I'm bit of oldschool rpg player. I believe gear should be farmed, I believe reward should be equal to efforts etc.
    My favorite setup for dungeons/raid was in a Chinese mmorpg, regrettably highly p2w one.
    But game designers took anything good that one could have in rpg.

    each dudgeon / raid had 3 difficulty tier.
    1 star was easy mod, in right gear facetank, beauty was that a player could not have the right gear by the time they had to do 1 star.
    2 starts was training, that would drop a bit of mats for gear and a tiny chance for a peace of gear.
    3 stars was the place you go and test yourself, for more mats and slightly higher chances of gear.
    On top of that 3 stars had a chance to drop an item that will open ultimate challenge mod, where mats that drop weren't bound.
    If party was struggling on 3 starts lets say second boss, they could drop difficulty. meaning practice more on 2 stars and get back next week to try to beat it again.
    Once you clear 3 star instance, you get exclusive rights to enter 1 or 2 starts in mentor mod (sidekicking) where you could help guildies, friends, randoms that struggle but no loot for you. In return you would get bit of currency to buy some(juts some) mats for BiS.

    "There is always a lighthouse, there's always a man, there's always a city."

  • Tyson.5160Tyson.5160 Member ✭✭✭✭
    We need both easy and hard modes

    @mortrialus.3062 said:

    @phs.6089 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @phs.6089 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @phs.6089 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @phs.6089 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @mortrialus.3062 said:
    Yeah, the fact that LFR made raids a boring slog where mechanics are irrelevant and every boss feels the same and drained all the excitement of beating your raid boss for the first time and that making you feel like a powerful epic hero of legend. Which has a heck of a lot to do with the cost of easy mode.

    Exagerrate much?
    Notice also, that it's not something inherently tied to easy mode. FFXIV for example doesn't seem to have the same problem. Even if story/hard mode fights are generally really easy compared to extremes.

    Not sure that's an exaggeration. At least not a big one.

    I can't recall a single LFR experience where I thought the content was enjoyable past getting loot in WoW. The only thing ever remotely fun was chatting with friends on the side.

    I'm genuinely interested though, could people tell me if the actual experience of running the LFR is enjoyable to them? When trying to ignore the loot. That is, if you thought about how the LFR experience was, and you subtracted the loot, would you keep running them weekly? What about reduced loot?

    I have played a game that had easy,modes and something like lfr. Yeah you Q you don't care to talk to people, you just go there for daily and loot. You go to ahrd mode only with people you know that won't cause problem to the run. You take friends and guildies to easy mod for training runs.
    I don't see how this 2 easy mode and lfr are connected.
    But going to run with friends guildies no matter what mod wasn't excluded, especially if you were in a good guild that with good people.
    This start to be even more fun when they added guild missions to raids/dungeons.

    Easy Mode and LFR are connected, because in order to allow maximum success for LFR mode content, difficulty needs to be kept in check. That obviously does not mean every easy mode has to be via LFR and as such asking about LFR in a topic about easy mode raids can be misleading, true.

    My question is directly aimed at people who enjoy LFR. I'm fine with people telling me they enjoy it, but I want every one to dig deep and honestly analyze for them selves:
    do they enjoy the LFR, or do they enjoy the perks in form of easy loot for example?

    One of both is impossible to replicate in GW2 due to how the reward structure is designed in this game (no progressive loot system which allows for disposable gear/loot).

    That's beside the point that LFR for raids in this game would be near impossible to design given the specific classes required and shifting balance patches on roles. LFG would work for content such as dungeons and maybe low rank fractals.

    It isn't that difficult to make Q per roles really. Might be some issues with people mentality 'i want druid not firebrand'.

    It is when different bosses have different setups and when the performance difference between roles is this huge.

    Try giving alacrity or quickness on a warrior, or heal with a thief or mesmer. That's only this balance cycle btw. Not even mentioning things like hand kiting.

    I understand but easy mode won't be so dependent on meta

    True, in which case it is useless for practice. So it boils down to: is it worth to have easy mode so people can see the zones and boss models?

    I beg to differ, easy mods should not be facetanking, just mech should be bit forgiving. Just a bit but enough to punish for facetanking.
    That is the meaning of easy mod, to teach. In case of GW2 closes analogue would be T3s.
    yes a party of exp players can facetank alot in t3s but new players wipe there for same thing.

    You're the only person in this thread advocating such a thing. All the other easy mode advocates want it to present 0 challenge so everyone can do it with 100% of the rewards as well. One person advocated that all in game rewards specifically Legendary Armor as their example and skins should be available through a reward track you gain credit for no matter what you do in game, just as long as you're playing you make progress on your reward track.

    Woah now, “all the other easy mode advocates want it to present 0 challenge so everyone can do it with 100% of the rewards”? Hold up friend, I have never stated that. You are using absolutes, which is dangerous. I have personally said that the Legendary Armor component should stay with the normal mode. Things like mag shards, minis and maybe the ascended chest could be used as rewards for easy mode.

  • trev.1045trev.1045 Member ✭✭✭
    edited March 2, 2019
    We need both easy and hard modes

    People talking about LFR on wow forget why it was introduced?

    A large amount of resources went into content that relatively few people used

    That means the accountants would have wanted less resources spent on raids

    The side benefits of lfr are they can incorporate story into raids now. Rewards should be less for easy mode. of course

    So, those who want things to stay as they are... thats fine! but understand thst the most likely result is little resources being put into them going forward.

    If i was an elite raider id want anything that encourages more participation as i would know that is my best chance of getting more raids

  • mortrialus.3062mortrialus.3062 Member ✭✭✭✭
    Raids are fine the way they are, combining bosses of various difficulties

    @Tyson.5160 said:

    @mortrialus.3062 said:

    @phs.6089 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @phs.6089 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @phs.6089 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @phs.6089 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @mortrialus.3062 said:
    Yeah, the fact that LFR made raids a boring slog where mechanics are irrelevant and every boss feels the same and drained all the excitement of beating your raid boss for the first time and that making you feel like a powerful epic hero of legend. Which has a heck of a lot to do with the cost of easy mode.

    Exagerrate much?
    Notice also, that it's not something inherently tied to easy mode. FFXIV for example doesn't seem to have the same problem. Even if story/hard mode fights are generally really easy compared to extremes.

    Not sure that's an exaggeration. At least not a big one.

    I can't recall a single LFR experience where I thought the content was enjoyable past getting loot in WoW. The only thing ever remotely fun was chatting with friends on the side.

    I'm genuinely interested though, could people tell me if the actual experience of running the LFR is enjoyable to them? When trying to ignore the loot. That is, if you thought about how the LFR experience was, and you subtracted the loot, would you keep running them weekly? What about reduced loot?

    I have played a game that had easy,modes and something like lfr. Yeah you Q you don't care to talk to people, you just go there for daily and loot. You go to ahrd mode only with people you know that won't cause problem to the run. You take friends and guildies to easy mod for training runs.
    I don't see how this 2 easy mode and lfr are connected.
    But going to run with friends guildies no matter what mod wasn't excluded, especially if you were in a good guild that with good people.
    This start to be even more fun when they added guild missions to raids/dungeons.

    Easy Mode and LFR are connected, because in order to allow maximum success for LFR mode content, difficulty needs to be kept in check. That obviously does not mean every easy mode has to be via LFR and as such asking about LFR in a topic about easy mode raids can be misleading, true.

    My question is directly aimed at people who enjoy LFR. I'm fine with people telling me they enjoy it, but I want every one to dig deep and honestly analyze for them selves:
    do they enjoy the LFR, or do they enjoy the perks in form of easy loot for example?

    One of both is impossible to replicate in GW2 due to how the reward structure is designed in this game (no progressive loot system which allows for disposable gear/loot).

    That's beside the point that LFR for raids in this game would be near impossible to design given the specific classes required and shifting balance patches on roles. LFG would work for content such as dungeons and maybe low rank fractals.

    It isn't that difficult to make Q per roles really. Might be some issues with people mentality 'i want druid not firebrand'.

    It is when different bosses have different setups and when the performance difference between roles is this huge.

    Try giving alacrity or quickness on a warrior, or heal with a thief or mesmer. That's only this balance cycle btw. Not even mentioning things like hand kiting.

    I understand but easy mode won't be so dependent on meta

    True, in which case it is useless for practice. So it boils down to: is it worth to have easy mode so people can see the zones and boss models?

    I beg to differ, easy mods should not be facetanking, just mech should be bit forgiving. Just a bit but enough to punish for facetanking.
    That is the meaning of easy mod, to teach. In case of GW2 closes analogue would be T3s.
    yes a party of exp players can facetank alot in t3s but new players wipe there for same thing.

    You're the only person in this thread advocating such a thing. All the other easy mode advocates want it to present 0 challenge so everyone can do it with 100% of the rewards as well. One person advocated that all in game rewards specifically Legendary Armor as their example and skins should be available through a reward track you gain credit for no matter what you do in game, just as long as you're playing you make progress on your reward track.

    Woah now, “all the other easy mode advocates want it to present 0 challenge so everyone can do it with 100% of the rewards”? Hold up friend, I have never stated that. You are using absolutes, which is dangerous. I have personally said that the Legendary Armor component should stay with the normal mode. Things like mag shards, minis and maybe the ascended chest could be used as rewards for easy mode.

    Astralporing was specifically the person with the legendary armor PvE reward track idea.

    The Psychomancer: Mesmer Elite Specialization Suggestion

  • Astralporing.1957Astralporing.1957 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 2, 2019
    We need an easy mode, but not a hard mode

    @mortrialus.3062 said:
    You're the only person in this thread advocating such a thing. All the other easy mode advocates want it to present 0 challenge

    That's factually not true, and is a gross misrepresentation of easy mode supporters' suggestions. Yes, there are people that ask for that, but not only they are not all the voices, but aren't even in the majority.
    Don't do that. The only thing it does is suggest you simply don't have any serious arguments against the real (as opposed to fictional) suggestions of other posters you argue with.

    The whole point of a social game is to play with the people you want to play with, not be forced to play with the people you don't.

  • Astralporing.1957Astralporing.1957 Member ✭✭✭✭
    We need an easy mode, but not a hard mode

    @mortrialus.3062 said:
    Astralporing was specifically the person with the legendary armor PvE reward track idea.

    ...are you sure about that? Because i don't remember ever coming up with an idea like that. If i remember right, the idea was Ohoni's.
    And i definitely never was for easy mode raids having zero difficulty. I'm painfully aware that's not even realistically possible considering how low skill of some people can get.

    The whole point of a social game is to play with the people you want to play with, not be forced to play with the people you don't.

  • mortrialus.3062mortrialus.3062 Member ✭✭✭✭
    Raids are fine the way they are, combining bosses of various difficulties

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @mortrialus.3062 said:
    Astralporing was specifically the person with the legendary armor PvE reward track idea.

    ...are you sure about that? Because i don't remember ever coming up with an idea like that. If i remember right, the idea was Ohoni's.
    And i definitely never was for easy mode raids having zero difficulty. I'm painfully aware that's not even realistically possible considering how low skill of some people can get.

    Maybe? I recall they had some kind of thief avatar.

    The Psychomancer: Mesmer Elite Specialization Suggestion

  • vesica tempestas.1563vesica tempestas.1563 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 2, 2019
    We need both easy and hard modes

    @mortrialus.3062 said:

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @mortrialus.3062 said:
    Yeah, the fact that LFR made raids a boring slog where mechanics are irrelevant and every boss feels the same and drained all the excitement of beating your raid boss for the first time and that making you feel like a powerful epic hero of legend. Which has a heck of a lot to do with the cost of easy mode.

    Exagerrate much?

    Not in the slightest. Faceroll raids, like LFR in WoW now, will never ever elicit this type of response where 10 friend cry out in joy over the feeling of actually accomplishing something.

    Different audience, different time. That same group spent hundreds of hours burning that same fight into their memory 20 times a night for x weeks, while 95% of the playing player base got no content designed for large casual groups. There are different styles of game play, and not all of it is about beating the most difficult content, most players want group play without drama and dull rote pattern matching. See Wildstar.

    "Any path that narrows future possibilities may become a lethal trap. Humans do not thread their way through a maze; they scan a vast horizon filled with unique opportunities." - The Spacing Guild Handbook.

    Beware the meta!

  • mortrialus.3062mortrialus.3062 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 2, 2019
    Raids are fine the way they are, combining bosses of various difficulties

    @vesica tempestas.1563 said:

    @mortrialus.3062 said:

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @mortrialus.3062 said:
    Yeah, the fact that LFR made raids a boring slog where mechanics are irrelevant and every boss feels the same and drained all the excitement of beating your raid boss for the first time and that making you feel like a powerful epic hero of legend. Which has a heck of a lot to do with the cost of easy mode.

    Exagerrate much?

    Not in the slightest. Faceroll raids, like LFR in WoW now, will never ever elicit this type of response where 10 friend cry out in joy over the feeling of actually accomplishing something.

    Different audience, different time. That same group spent hundreds of hours burning that same fight into their memory 20 times a night for x weeks, while 95% of the playing player base got no content designed for large casual groups. There are different styles of game play, and not all of it is about beating the most difficult content, most players want group play without drama and dull rote pattern matching. See Wildstar.

    .

    while 95% of the playing player base got no content designed for large casual groups.

    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Daybreak

    Hall of Chains is the same patch that gave us Living World Season 4 and Istan, the most rewarding and replayed casual group content since Auric Basin was added and is still very popular and well liked by players going by the thread Arenanet Thread where they talked about how there were plans to nerf it. And if you aren't a fan of zergs but also not a fan of raid difficulty fractals got Twilight of Oasis too.

    The Psychomancer: Mesmer Elite Specialization Suggestion

  • phs.6089phs.6089 Member ✭✭✭✭
    We need both easy and hard modes

    @mortrialus.3062 said:

    @vesica tempestas.1563 said:

    @mortrialus.3062 said:

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @mortrialus.3062 said:
    Yeah, the fact that LFR made raids a boring slog where mechanics are irrelevant and every boss feels the same and drained all the excitement of beating your raid boss for the first time and that making you feel like a powerful epic hero of legend. Which has a heck of a lot to do with the cost of easy mode.

    Exagerrate much?

    Not in the slightest. Faceroll raids, like LFR in WoW now, will never ever elicit this type of response where 10 friend cry out in joy over the feeling of actually accomplishing something.

    Different audience, different time. That same group spent hundreds of hours burning that same fight into their memory 20 times a night for x weeks, while 95% of the playing player base got no content designed for large casual groups. There are different styles of game play, and not all of it is about beating the most difficult content, most players want group play without drama and dull rote pattern matching. See Wildstar.

    .

    while 95% of the playing player base got no content designed for large casual groups.

    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Daybreak

    Hall of Chains is the same patch that gave us Living World Season 4 and Istan, the most rewarding and replayed casual group content since Auric Basin was added and is still very popular and well liked by players going by the thread Arenanet Thread where they talked about how there were plans to nerf it. And if you aren't a fan of zergs but also not a fan of raid difficulty fractals got Twilight of Oasis too.

    It's a big difference in gaming experience between, open world, 5 man short fractals and 10 man raids.

    "There is always a lighthouse, there's always a man, there's always a city."

  • mortrialus.3062mortrialus.3062 Member ✭✭✭✭
    Raids are fine the way they are, combining bosses of various difficulties

    @phs.6089 said:

    @mortrialus.3062 said:

    @vesica tempestas.1563 said:

    @mortrialus.3062 said:

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @mortrialus.3062 said:
    Yeah, the fact that LFR made raids a boring slog where mechanics are irrelevant and every boss feels the same and drained all the excitement of beating your raid boss for the first time and that making you feel like a powerful epic hero of legend. Which has a heck of a lot to do with the cost of easy mode.

    Exagerrate much?

    Not in the slightest. Faceroll raids, like LFR in WoW now, will never ever elicit this type of response where 10 friend cry out in joy over the feeling of actually accomplishing something.

    Different audience, different time. That same group spent hundreds of hours burning that same fight into their memory 20 times a night for x weeks, while 95% of the playing player base got no content designed for large casual groups. There are different styles of game play, and not all of it is about beating the most difficult content, most players want group play without drama and dull rote pattern matching. See Wildstar.

    .

    while 95% of the playing player base got no content designed for large casual groups.

    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Daybreak

    Hall of Chains is the same patch that gave us Living World Season 4 and Istan, the most rewarding and replayed casual group content since Auric Basin was added and is still very popular and well liked by players going by the thread Arenanet Thread where they talked about how there were plans to nerf it. And if you aren't a fan of zergs but also not a fan of raid difficulty fractals got Twilight of Oasis too.

    It's a big difference in gaming experience between, open world, 5 man short fractals and 10 man raids.

    Not at all. An easy mode raid that everyone can beat with no risk of failure plays no differently than something like Istan no matter how many player character models you flood the screen with.

    The Psychomancer: Mesmer Elite Specialization Suggestion

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭
    Raids are fine the way they are, combining bosses of various difficulties

    @mortrialus.3062 said:

    @phs.6089 said:

    @mortrialus.3062 said:

    @vesica tempestas.1563 said:

    @mortrialus.3062 said:

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @mortrialus.3062 said:
    Yeah, the fact that LFR made raids a boring slog where mechanics are irrelevant and every boss feels the same and drained all the excitement of beating your raid boss for the first time and that making you feel like a powerful epic hero of legend. Which has a heck of a lot to do with the cost of easy mode.

    Exagerrate much?

    Not in the slightest. Faceroll raids, like LFR in WoW now, will never ever elicit this type of response where 10 friend cry out in joy over the feeling of actually accomplishing something.

    Different audience, different time. That same group spent hundreds of hours burning that same fight into their memory 20 times a night for x weeks, while 95% of the playing player base got no content designed for large casual groups. There are different styles of game play, and not all of it is about beating the most difficult content, most players want group play without drama and dull rote pattern matching. See Wildstar.

    .

    while 95% of the playing player base got no content designed for large casual groups.

    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Daybreak

    Hall of Chains is the same patch that gave us Living World Season 4 and Istan, the most rewarding and replayed casual group content since Auric Basin was added and is still very popular and well liked by players going by the thread Arenanet Thread where they talked about how there were plans to nerf it. And if you aren't a fan of zergs but also not a fan of raid difficulty fractals got Twilight of Oasis too.

    It's a big difference in gaming experience between, open world, 5 man short fractals and 10 man raids.

    Not at all. An easy mode raid that everyone can beat with no risk of failure plays no differently than something like Istan no matter how many player character models you flood the screen with.

    What was the completion rate on the snowman raid? 95% is you had a squad of 10 people?

    I saw Istan fail more often in the first week.

    The main difference is: raid content and difficult fractals require up-front time investment. While world events you can simply copy what other people do.

    If raids are made easy enough, they would play out just like open world content on farm.

  • phs.6089phs.6089 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 3, 2019
    We need both easy and hard modes

    @mortrialus.3062 said:

    @phs.6089 said:

    @mortrialus.3062 said:

    @vesica tempestas.1563 said:

    @mortrialus.3062 said:

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @mortrialus.3062 said:
    Yeah, the fact that LFR made raids a boring slog where mechanics are irrelevant and every boss feels the same and drained all the excitement of beating your raid boss for the first time and that making you feel like a powerful epic hero of legend. Which has a heck of a lot to do with the cost of easy mode.

    Exagerrate much?

    Not in the slightest. Faceroll raids, like LFR in WoW now, will never ever elicit this type of response where 10 friend cry out in joy over the feeling of actually accomplishing something.

    Different audience, different time. That same group spent hundreds of hours burning that same fight into their memory 20 times a night for x weeks, while 95% of the playing player base got no content designed for large casual groups. There are different styles of game play, and not all of it is about beating the most difficult content, most players want group play without drama and dull rote pattern matching. See Wildstar.

    .

    while 95% of the playing player base got no content designed for large casual groups.

    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Daybreak

    Hall of Chains is the same patch that gave us Living World Season 4 and Istan, the most rewarding and replayed casual group content since Auric Basin was added and is still very popular and well liked by players going by the thread Arenanet Thread where they talked about how there were plans to nerf it. And if you aren't a fan of zergs but also not a fan of raid difficulty fractals got Twilight of Oasis too.

    It's a big difference in gaming experience between, open world, 5 man short fractals and 10 man raids.

    Not at all. An easy mode raid that everyone can beat with no risk of failure plays no differently than something like Istan no matter how many player character models you flood the screen with.

    Nah that would be waste, as waste as CMs in raids.

    they could simply introduce food and utility like 'scarlets army' that makes 99 CM an easy mode, as you get 10% damage and 10% damage reduction. While failing mech leads to wipe.
    Easy mod has to teach and awaken desire, to beat it on hard.

    "There is always a lighthouse, there's always a man, there's always a city."

  • mortrialus.3062mortrialus.3062 Member ✭✭✭✭
    Raids are fine the way they are, combining bosses of various difficulties

    @phs.6089 said:

    @mortrialus.3062 said:

    @phs.6089 said:

    @mortrialus.3062 said:

    @vesica tempestas.1563 said:

    @mortrialus.3062 said:

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @mortrialus.3062 said:
    Yeah, the fact that LFR made raids a boring slog where mechanics are irrelevant and every boss feels the same and drained all the excitement of beating your raid boss for the first time and that making you feel like a powerful epic hero of legend. Which has a heck of a lot to do with the cost of easy mode.

    Exagerrate much?

    Not in the slightest. Faceroll raids, like LFR in WoW now, will never ever elicit this type of response where 10 friend cry out in joy over the feeling of actually accomplishing something.

    Different audience, different time. That same group spent hundreds of hours burning that same fight into their memory 20 times a night for x weeks, while 95% of the playing player base got no content designed for large casual groups. There are different styles of game play, and not all of it is about beating the most difficult content, most players want group play without drama and dull rote pattern matching. See Wildstar.

    .

    while 95% of the playing player base got no content designed for large casual groups.

    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Daybreak

    Hall of Chains is the same patch that gave us Living World Season 4 and Istan, the most rewarding and replayed casual group content since Auric Basin was added and is still very popular and well liked by players going by the thread Arenanet Thread where they talked about how there were plans to nerf it. And if you aren't a fan of zergs but also not a fan of raid difficulty fractals got Twilight of Oasis too.

    It's a big difference in gaming experience between, open world, 5 man short fractals and 10 man raids.

    Not at all. An easy mode raid that everyone can beat with no risk of failure plays no differently than something like Istan no matter how many player character models you flood the screen with.

    Nah that would be waste, as waste as CMs in raids.

    they could simply introduce food and utility like 'scarlets army' that makes 99 CM an easy mode, as you get 10% damage and 10% damage reduction. While failing mech leads to wipe.
    Easy mod has to teach and awaken desire, to beat it on hard.

    None of the easy mode advocates except you are asking for that. Infact, they're think you're an elitist like us.

    The Psychomancer: Mesmer Elite Specialization Suggestion

  • phs.6089phs.6089 Member ✭✭✭✭
    We need both easy and hard modes

    @mortrialus.3062 said:

    @phs.6089 said:

    @mortrialus.3062 said:

    @phs.6089 said:

    @mortrialus.3062 said:

    @vesica tempestas.1563 said:

    @mortrialus.3062 said:

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @mortrialus.3062 said:
    Yeah, the fact that LFR made raids a boring slog where mechanics are irrelevant and every boss feels the same and drained all the excitement of beating your raid boss for the first time and that making you feel like a powerful epic hero of legend. Which has a heck of a lot to do with the cost of easy mode.

    Exagerrate much?

    Not in the slightest. Faceroll raids, like LFR in WoW now, will never ever elicit this type of response where 10 friend cry out in joy over the feeling of actually accomplishing something.

    Different audience, different time. That same group spent hundreds of hours burning that same fight into their memory 20 times a night for x weeks, while 95% of the playing player base got no content designed for large casual groups. There are different styles of game play, and not all of it is about beating the most difficult content, most players want group play without drama and dull rote pattern matching. See Wildstar.

    .

    while 95% of the playing player base got no content designed for large casual groups.

    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Daybreak

    Hall of Chains is the same patch that gave us Living World Season 4 and Istan, the most rewarding and replayed casual group content since Auric Basin was added and is still very popular and well liked by players going by the thread Arenanet Thread where they talked about how there were plans to nerf it. And if you aren't a fan of zergs but also not a fan of raid difficulty fractals got Twilight of Oasis too.

    It's a big difference in gaming experience between, open world, 5 man short fractals and 10 man raids.

    Not at all. An easy mode raid that everyone can beat with no risk of failure plays no differently than something like Istan no matter how many player character models you flood the screen with.

    Nah that would be waste, as waste as CMs in raids.

    they could simply introduce food and utility like 'scarlets army' that makes 99 CM an easy mode, as you get 10% damage and 10% damage reduction. While failing mech leads to wipe.
    Easy mod has to teach and awaken desire, to beat it on hard.

    None of the easy mode advocates except you are asking for that. Infact, they're think you're an elitist like us.

    There are plenty of people that ask for this

    "There is always a lighthouse, there's always a man, there's always a city."

  • mortrialus.3062mortrialus.3062 Member ✭✭✭✭
    Raids are fine the way they are, combining bosses of various difficulties

    @phs.6089 said:

    @mortrialus.3062 said:

    @phs.6089 said:

    @mortrialus.3062 said:

    @phs.6089 said:

    @mortrialus.3062 said:

    @vesica tempestas.1563 said:

    @mortrialus.3062 said:

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @mortrialus.3062 said:
    Yeah, the fact that LFR made raids a boring slog where mechanics are irrelevant and every boss feels the same and drained all the excitement of beating your raid boss for the first time and that making you feel like a powerful epic hero of legend. Which has a heck of a lot to do with the cost of easy mode.

    Exagerrate much?

    Not in the slightest. Faceroll raids, like LFR in WoW now, will never ever elicit this type of response where 10 friend cry out in joy over the feeling of actually accomplishing something.

    Different audience, different time. That same group spent hundreds of hours burning that same fight into their memory 20 times a night for x weeks, while 95% of the playing player base got no content designed for large casual groups. There are different styles of game play, and not all of it is about beating the most difficult content, most players want group play without drama and dull rote pattern matching. See Wildstar.

    .

    while 95% of the playing player base got no content designed for large casual groups.

    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Daybreak

    Hall of Chains is the same patch that gave us Living World Season 4 and Istan, the most rewarding and replayed casual group content since Auric Basin was added and is still very popular and well liked by players going by the thread Arenanet Thread where they talked about how there were plans to nerf it. And if you aren't a fan of zergs but also not a fan of raid difficulty fractals got Twilight of Oasis too.

    It's a big difference in gaming experience between, open world, 5 man short fractals and 10 man raids.

    Not at all. An easy mode raid that everyone can beat with no risk of failure plays no differently than something like Istan no matter how many player character models you flood the screen with.

    Nah that would be waste, as waste as CMs in raids.

    they could simply introduce food and utility like 'scarlets army' that makes 99 CM an easy mode, as you get 10% damage and 10% damage reduction. While failing mech leads to wipe.
    Easy mod has to teach and awaken desire, to beat it on hard.

    None of the easy mode advocates except you are asking for that. Infact, they're think you're an elitist like us.

    There are plenty of people that ask for this

    Any easy mode that someone might fail at is LOCKING PEOPLE OUT OF CONTENT.

    Heck people have talked about WoW's faceroll LFR like it's a good thing. Repeatedly. All thread long.

    The Psychomancer: Mesmer Elite Specialization Suggestion

  • phs.6089phs.6089 Member ✭✭✭✭
    We need both easy and hard modes

    @mortrialus.3062 said:

    @phs.6089 said:

    @mortrialus.3062 said:

    @phs.6089 said:

    @mortrialus.3062 said:

    @phs.6089 said:

    @mortrialus.3062 said:

    @vesica tempestas.1563 said:

    @mortrialus.3062 said:

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @mortrialus.3062 said:
    Yeah, the fact that LFR made raids a boring slog where mechanics are irrelevant and every boss feels the same and drained all the excitement of beating your raid boss for the first time and that making you feel like a powerful epic hero of legend. Which has a heck of a lot to do with the cost of easy mode.

    Exagerrate much?

    Not in the slightest. Faceroll raids, like LFR in WoW now, will never ever elicit this type of response where 10 friend cry out in joy over the feeling of actually accomplishing something.

    Different audience, different time. That same group spent hundreds of hours burning that same fight into their memory 20 times a night for x weeks, while 95% of the playing player base got no content designed for large casual groups. There are different styles of game play, and not all of it is about beating the most difficult content, most players want group play without drama and dull rote pattern matching. See Wildstar.

    .

    while 95% of the playing player base got no content designed for large casual groups.

    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Daybreak

    Hall of Chains is the same patch that gave us Living World Season 4 and Istan, the most rewarding and replayed casual group content since Auric Basin was added and is still very popular and well liked by players going by the thread Arenanet Thread where they talked about how there were plans to nerf it. And if you aren't a fan of zergs but also not a fan of raid difficulty fractals got Twilight of Oasis too.

    It's a big difference in gaming experience between, open world, 5 man short fractals and 10 man raids.

    Not at all. An easy mode raid that everyone can beat with no risk of failure plays no differently than something like Istan no matter how many player character models you flood the screen with.

    Nah that would be waste, as waste as CMs in raids.

    they could simply introduce food and utility like 'scarlets army' that makes 99 CM an easy mode, as you get 10% damage and 10% damage reduction. While failing mech leads to wipe.
    Easy mod has to teach and awaken desire, to beat it on hard.

    None of the easy mode advocates except you are asking for that. Infact, they're think you're an elitist like us.

    There are plenty of people that ask for this

    Any easy mode that someone might fail at is LOCKING PEOPLE OUT OF CONTENT.

    Heck people have talked about WoW's faceroll LFR like it's a good thing. Repeatedly. All thread long.

    That is what easy modes are for, to get the idea on what to do.
    In opposite to going to training raids, with setup time and compositions etc, easy mode is join to LFG and try your best.
    If you fail and give up that easily, then the conclusion have to be obvious.

    "There is always a lighthouse, there's always a man, there's always a city."

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭
    Raids are fine the way they are, combining bosses of various difficulties

    @phs.6089 said:

    @mortrialus.3062 said:

    @phs.6089 said:

    @mortrialus.3062 said:

    @phs.6089 said:

    @mortrialus.3062 said:

    @phs.6089 said:

    @mortrialus.3062 said:

    @vesica tempestas.1563 said:

    @mortrialus.3062 said:

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @mortrialus.3062 said:
    Yeah, the fact that LFR made raids a boring slog where mechanics are irrelevant and every boss feels the same and drained all the excitement of beating your raid boss for the first time and that making you feel like a powerful epic hero of legend. Which has a heck of a lot to do with the cost of easy mode.

    Exagerrate much?

    Not in the slightest. Faceroll raids, like LFR in WoW now, will never ever elicit this type of response where 10 friend cry out in joy over the feeling of actually accomplishing something.

    Different audience, different time. That same group spent hundreds of hours burning that same fight into their memory 20 times a night for x weeks, while 95% of the playing player base got no content designed for large casual groups. There are different styles of game play, and not all of it is about beating the most difficult content, most players want group play without drama and dull rote pattern matching. See Wildstar.

    .

    while 95% of the playing player base got no content designed for large casual groups.

    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Daybreak

    Hall of Chains is the same patch that gave us Living World Season 4 and Istan, the most rewarding and replayed casual group content since Auric Basin was added and is still very popular and well liked by players going by the thread Arenanet Thread where they talked about how there were plans to nerf it. And if you aren't a fan of zergs but also not a fan of raid difficulty fractals got Twilight of Oasis too.

    It's a big difference in gaming experience between, open world, 5 man short fractals and 10 man raids.

    Not at all. An easy mode raid that everyone can beat with no risk of failure plays no differently than something like Istan no matter how many player character models you flood the screen with.

    Nah that would be waste, as waste as CMs in raids.

    they could simply introduce food and utility like 'scarlets army' that makes 99 CM an easy mode, as you get 10% damage and 10% damage reduction. While failing mech leads to wipe.
    Easy mod has to teach and awaken desire, to beat it on hard.

    None of the easy mode advocates except you are asking for that. Infact, they're think you're an elitist like us.

    There are plenty of people that ask for this

    Any easy mode that someone might fail at is LOCKING PEOPLE OUT OF CONTENT.

    Heck people have talked about WoW's faceroll LFR like it's a good thing. Repeatedly. All thread long.

    That is what easy modes are for, to get the idea on what to do.
    In opposite to going to training raids, with setup time and compositions etc, easy mode is join to LFG and try your best.
    If you fail and give up that easily, then the conclusion have to be obvious.

    No, the conclusions are not obvious. Especially the often mentioned LFR has specific mechanics in place to assure 100% success.

    Your easy mode would still be to hard for some, this is evident by how lacking player knowledge and experience is in open world. So essentially easy mode would have to be on par with open world content, which makes it useless for practice.

    There is insanely easy raid bosses: Escort, Cairn, MO, Samarog, etc.
    Yet even those are to much of a hassle and challenge to people here.

  • phs.6089phs.6089 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 3, 2019
    We need both easy and hard modes

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @phs.6089 said:

    @mortrialus.3062 said:

    @phs.6089 said:

    @mortrialus.3062 said:

    @phs.6089 said:

    @mortrialus.3062 said:

    @phs.6089 said:

    @mortrialus.3062 said:

    @vesica tempestas.1563 said:

    @mortrialus.3062 said:

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @mortrialus.3062 said:
    Yeah, the fact that LFR made raids a boring slog where mechanics are irrelevant and every boss feels the same and drained all the excitement of beating your raid boss for the first time and that making you feel like a powerful epic hero of legend. Which has a heck of a lot to do with the cost of easy mode.

    Exagerrate much?

    Not in the slightest. Faceroll raids, like LFR in WoW now, will never ever elicit this type of response where 10 friend cry out in joy over the feeling of actually accomplishing something.

    Different audience, different time. That same group spent hundreds of hours burning that same fight into their memory 20 times a night for x weeks, while 95% of the playing player base got no content designed for large casual groups. There are different styles of game play, and not all of it is about beating the most difficult content, most players want group play without drama and dull rote pattern matching. See Wildstar.

    .

    while 95% of the playing player base got no content designed for large casual groups.

    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Daybreak

    Hall of Chains is the same patch that gave us Living World Season 4 and Istan, the most rewarding and replayed casual group content since Auric Basin was added and is still very popular and well liked by players going by the thread Arenanet Thread where they talked about how there were plans to nerf it. And if you aren't a fan of zergs but also not a fan of raid difficulty fractals got Twilight of Oasis too.

    It's a big difference in gaming experience between, open world, 5 man short fractals and 10 man raids.

    Not at all. An easy mode raid that everyone can beat with no risk of failure plays no differently than something like Istan no matter how many player character models you flood the screen with.

    Nah that would be waste, as waste as CMs in raids.

    they could simply introduce food and utility like 'scarlets army' that makes 99 CM an easy mode, as you get 10% damage and 10% damage reduction. While failing mech leads to wipe.
    Easy mod has to teach and awaken desire, to beat it on hard.

    None of the easy mode advocates except you are asking for that. Infact, they're think you're an elitist like us.

    There are plenty of people that ask for this

    Any easy mode that someone might fail at is LOCKING PEOPLE OUT OF CONTENT.

    Heck people have talked about WoW's faceroll LFR like it's a good thing. Repeatedly. All thread long.

    That is what easy modes are for, to get the idea on what to do.
    In opposite to going to training raids, with setup time and compositions etc, easy mode is join to LFG and try your best.
    If you fail and give up that easily, then the conclusion have to be obvious.

    No, the conclusions are not obvious. Especially the often mentioned LFR has specific mechanics in place to assure 100% success.

    Your easy mode would still be to hard for some, this is evident by how lacking player knowledge and experience is in open world. So essentially easy mode would have to be on par with open world content, which makes it useless for practice.

    There is insanely easy raid bosses: Escort, Cairn, MO, Samarog, etc.
    Yet even those are to much of a hassle and challenge to people here.

    People that want those LFR, 0 challenge runs for Envoy, will always want more. :)
    This comes from a person that takes guildies to Escort, Carin, MO, Samaorg and even to VG with Trio
    if we feel advanced we even run Spirit vale and poke Gorseval. :)

    "There is always a lighthouse, there's always a man, there's always a city."

  • trev.1045trev.1045 Member ✭✭✭
    We need both easy and hard modes

    Some of the comments are very similar to the wow boards, even trying to tie wows subs drop to LFR (the gaming market has changed dramatically over the last decade)

    Its quite simple to me, raiding is a minority activity.. you can argue it shouldnt be but it is

    Where resources are limited.. developers won't want to push resources into under used areas, it is bad business.

    So you have a choice, introduce a mode that more can access with lesser rewards... or accept a very small proportion of resources will be put into raids

    If you make it more accessible then you have a real justification for making more and utilising them more for story

    I never understand peoples objections... an easier mode does not in any way spoil the gameplay of 'proper raiders'

  • Vinceman.4572Vinceman.4572 Member ✭✭✭✭
    Raids are fine the way they are, combining bosses of various difficulties

    @trev.1045 said:
    Some of the comments are very similar to the wow boards, even trying to tie wows subs drop to LFR (the gaming market has changed dramatically over the last decade)

    Its quite simple to me, raiding is a minority activity.. you can argue it shouldnt be but it is

    Where resources are limited.. developers won't want to push resources into under used areas, it is bad business.

    So you have a choice, introduce a mode that more can access with lesser rewards... or accept a very small proportion of resources will be put into raids

    If you make it more accessible then you have a real justification for making more and utilising them more for story

    I never understand peoples objections... an easier mode does not in any way spoil the gameplay of 'proper raiders'

    The majority of raiders (especially here in this forum) are not against easy modes per se. The skepticism lies in the implementation of such mode with special regard to the reward structure. A lot of - not all tbh - were arguing that they have the right to receive the same rewards, notably legendary armor, from playing easier content and that would cause a lot of troubles and definitely result in lower population of normal mode raiders and finally to the death of any challenging content at all.
    If people want the whole game being a hunt after the loot pinata, it's fine but GW2 will lose a proper amount of paying customers.

    But let's face it, I doubt that we'll see any kind of changes to raids in the near future. It's even questionable that there will be a next raid wing and even if it's there will it be competitive in comparison to the others. I mean we definitely know that at least 3 people from the raid & fractal left the company, with Anet Ben maybe the most addicted challenging content dev they had - and the team was already very small. Thinking of getting new interesting content here - fractals and/or a raid wing - is absurd to this point of time. I'm more convinced that "this (huge layoffs) won't end well" for the game. Seriously, there are no hints for a prosperous future. The statements made are ridiculous after firing 1/3 of your company.

  • trev.1045trev.1045 Member ✭✭✭
    We need both easy and hard modes

    @Vinceman.4572 said:

    @trev.1045 said:
    Some of the comments are very similar to the wow boards, even trying to tie wows subs drop to LFR (the gaming market has changed dramatically over the last decade)

    Its quite simple to me, raiding is a minority activity.. you can argue it shouldnt be but it is

    Where resources are limited.. developers won't want to push resources into under used areas, it is bad business.

    So you have a choice, introduce a mode that more can access with lesser rewards... or accept a very small proportion of resources will be put into raids

    If you make it more accessible then you have a real justification for making more and utilising them more for story

    I never understand peoples objections... an easier mode does not in any way spoil the gameplay of 'proper raiders'

    The majority of raiders (especially here in this forum) are not against easy modes per se. The skepticism lies in the implementation of such mode with special regard to the reward structure. A lot of - not all tbh - were arguing that they have the right to receive the same rewards, notably legendary armor, from playing easier content and that would cause a lot of troubles and definitely result in lower population of normal mode raiders and finally to the death of any challenging content at all.
    If people want the whole game being a hunt after the loot pinata, it's fine but GW2 will lose a proper amount of paying customers.

    But let's face it, I doubt that we'll see any kind of changes to raids in the near future. It's even questionable that there will be a next raid wing and even if it's there will it be competitive in comparison to the others. I mean we definitely know that at least 3 people from the raid & fractal left the company, with Anet Ben maybe the most addicted challenging content dev they had - and the team was already very small. Thinking of getting new interesting content here - fractals and/or a raid wing - is absurd to this point of time. I'm more convinced that "this (huge layoffs) won't end well" for the game. Seriously, there are no hints for a prosperous future. The statements made are ridiculous after firing 1/3 of your company.

    I am on my phone so apologies for any typos

    Ive done both serious raiding and then when wife and job and hobbies meant i only play games a few hours a week (and cant do schedules) i switched to being an 'lfr scrub'

    I do agree rewards should be less on easier raids.

    As for the future of the game, to be honest i dont know what will happen... i literally started a week ago, so obviously i hope it suceeds.

    I actually believe that there are quite a few wow players looking for new homes as bfa has not gone down well, i think a roadmap and news they are at least working on a new expansion would belp grab those potential players.

  • Astralporing.1957Astralporing.1957 Member ✭✭✭✭
    We need an easy mode, but not a hard mode

    @trev.1045 said:
    I never understand peoples objections... an easier mode does not in any way spoil the gameplay of 'proper raiders'

    It makes raiding less "elite" and that apparently is a crime.

    Still, in general, i agree with @Vinceman.4572. I just don't see them putting any effort in the raid content at this point. Especially if the suspicions that no expac is in the works are true. Not only their raid/fractal team got significantly weakened by layoffs, but also making them work on another wing (or some significant changes to existing ones) at the point where their experience could be better used elsewhere would probably not be a good idea. I'd say that at the moment what the game needs more is a content aimed at a general populace. Something that can at least give something to do to a lot of players while they'll wait for Anet to get their house in order. Content for a small minority of hardcore players is probably needed the least at the moment (and that's assuming we even ever needed as much of it as we've got).

    The whole point of a social game is to play with the people you want to play with, not be forced to play with the people you don't.

  • trev.1045trev.1045 Member ✭✭✭
    We need both easy and hard modes

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @trev.1045 said:
    I never understand peoples objections... an easier mode does not in any way spoil the gameplay of 'proper raiders'

    It makes raiding less "elite" and that apparently is a crime.

    Still, in general, i agree with @Vinceman.4572. I just don't see them putting any effort in the raid content at this point. Especially if the suspicions that no expac is in the works are true. Not only their raid/fractal team got significantly weakened by layoffs, but also making them work on another wing (or some significant changes to existing ones) at the point where their experience could be better used elsewhere would probably not be a good idea. I'd say that at the moment what the game needs more is a content aimed at a general populace. Something that can at least give something to do to a lot of players while they'll wait for Anet to get their house in order. Content for a small minority of hardcore players is probably needed the least at the moment (and that's assuming we even ever needed as much of it as we've got).

    Fair points. Its a shame though because the raid content could have been inclusive to the majority of players with tiers. You are probably right though... if resources are now much reduced they will go into content the majority sees.

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭
    Raids are fine the way they are, combining bosses of various difficulties

    @trev.1045 said:

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @trev.1045 said:
    I never understand peoples objections... an easier mode does not in any way spoil the gameplay of 'proper raiders'

    It makes raiding less "elite" and that apparently is a crime.

    Still, in general, i agree with @Vinceman.4572. I just don't see them putting any effort in the raid content at this point. Especially if the suspicions that no expac is in the works are true. Not only their raid/fractal team got significantly weakened by layoffs, but also making them work on another wing (or some significant changes to existing ones) at the point where their experience could be better used elsewhere would probably not be a good idea. I'd say that at the moment what the game needs more is a content aimed at a general populace. Something that can at least give something to do to a lot of players while they'll wait for Anet to get their house in order. Content for a small minority of hardcore players is probably needed the least at the moment (and that's assuming we even ever needed as much of it as we've got).

    Fair points. Its a shame though because the raid content could have been inclusive to the majority of players with tiers. You are probably right though... if resources are now much reduced they will go into content the majority sees.

    That's my main gripe, I don't want this game to turn more raid centric. Yes, even as an active raider who enjoys raids immensely, because I doubt we could get raids here to a level where they could compete with other more raid centric games, in part also due to the reward structure of GW2.

    People assume that more devotion to raid content is what they will enjoy, I'm not seeing it. The vast majority of players in GW2 aren't here for raids, no easy mode is going to change this, even less with worse rewards. Raids are great niche content for the developer resources spent(if we can assume that 4-5 people work on them) that's it.

    If we had infinite developer resources, sure then implementing easy mode would make sense, though there would be a lot of areas where I think those resources could be put to more productive use.

    The LFR arguments are mostly an issue of themselves and it might be more productive to separate the issue of easy mode and LFR. Unfortunately it comes often up because people like to combine ease of access (in form of auto group tools) with content difficulty.

    Anything else relating to rewards and the desire to achieve them can be solved via other means.

  • trev.1045trev.1045 Member ✭✭✭
    We need both easy and hard modes

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @trev.1045 said:

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @trev.1045 said:
    I never understand peoples objections... an easier mode does not in any way spoil the gameplay of 'proper raiders'

    It makes raiding less "elite" and that apparently is a crime.

    Still, in general, i agree with @Vinceman.4572. I just don't see them putting any effort in the raid content at this point. Especially if the suspicions that no expac is in the works are true. Not only their raid/fractal team got significantly weakened by layoffs, but also making them work on another wing (or some significant changes to existing ones) at the point where their experience could be better used elsewhere would probably not be a good idea. I'd say that at the moment what the game needs more is a content aimed at a general populace. Something that can at least give something to do to a lot of players while they'll wait for Anet to get their house in order. Content for a small minority of hardcore players is probably needed the least at the moment (and that's assuming we even ever needed as much of it as we've got).

    Fair points. Its a shame though because the raid content could have been inclusive to the majority of players with tiers. You are probably right though... if resources are now much reduced they will go into content the majority sees.

    That's my main gripe, I don't want this game to turn more raid centric. Yes, even as an active raider who enjoys raids immensely, because I doubt we could get raids here to a level where they could compete with other more raid centric games, in part also due to the reward structure of GW2.

    People assume that more devotion to raid content is what they will enjoy, I'm not seeing it. The vast majority of players in GW2 aren't here for raids, no easy mode is going to change this, even less with worse rewards. Raids are great niche content for the developer resources spent(if we can assume that 4-5 people work on them) that's it.

    If we had infinite developer resources, sure then implementing easy mode would make sense, though there would be a lot of areas where I think those resources could be put to more productive use.

    The LFR arguments are mostly an issue of themselves and it might be more productive to separate the issue of easy mode and LFR. Unfortunately it comes often up because people like to combine ease of access (in form of auto group tools) with content difficulty.

    Anything else relating to rewards and the desire to achieve them can be solved via other means.

    You may be right, the honest answer is i dont know! i just know lots used LFR on wow.
    Im very new, just discovered lions arch
    The starting experience is every bit as good as wow, better in fact, i see some shortcuts to save resources (the same assets are used endlessly for unimportant npcs for instance).
    But overall excellent starting experience.
    I am curious where you think extra resources should be used?

  • Xar.6279Xar.6279 Member ✭✭
    edited March 4, 2019

    I'll just admit that there's nothing wrong in that some game mode is created for a small number of people.
    Popularity isnt a good measure of quality at all.
    Some modes always will be smaller than others - no matter what. And there's nothing wrong about that. Those modes dont need hundreds of thousands of players to let people which likes those modes just have a fun there. Those modes just needs enough support. Devs can think for another 100 years and they wont find any wonderful solution which make everyone wants to play every game mode.

    If devs implements some game mode into their game, then they should just actively support it. Even for a small number of players. If game mode is supported enough and really well-done, then there will be always enough players which will be happy to pay for this mode. No matter how hardcore it is. And those modes overall just makes the game bigger and open for different types of players. That makes game better - not worse. Also hardcore game modes usually causes a lot of interest in media. Which means that there's always some hot news about game and stuff like that. And game is alive then. People talks about it etc, etc.
    Even on live-streams people prefer to watch PvP, tournaments, hardcore raids and stuff like that, rather than casual and easy pve stuff.
    There's small number of people which plays it, but its followed by thousands. And this is the undeniable value of those hardcore modes.

    Every mode is different and that's the best part of it. Otherwise everything would be the same.
    Some modes are more hardcore, some less. Some more popular, some less.
    All together gives a good game, because more players can play it then.
    Some people like to raid or pvp. Others prefer casual pve, mass-pvp, just story, roleplay or other things. Everyone can decide for themselves what they likes and wants to do.
    **None is forced to do everything. Don't be greedy. If u dont feel like some game mode is for you. Just don't play it. And problem is solved. **

    **Main problem with GW2 is that there's alot of game modes here. We got casual pve (dungeons, fractals, guild missions, world bosses, etc etc), hardcore pve (raids), pvp, wvw (mass-pvp)... But none of them is supported enough. But you guys prefer to talk about difficulty and other side topics. And justify ArenaNet and their laziness over and over. By telling things like: "their company is too small (while its not)... we dont deserve for more content... but not enough resources... not worth... blah blah blah..." And meantime? ArenaNet seeing it move their devs into another side projects. Because GW2 community is afrad to ask for something more. **

  • Tyson.5160Tyson.5160 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 4, 2019
    We need both easy and hard modes

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @trev.1045 said:
    I never understand peoples objections... an easier mode does not in any way spoil the gameplay of 'proper raiders'

    It makes raiding less "elite" and that apparently is a crime.

    Still, in general, i agree with @Vinceman.4572. I just don't see them putting any effort in the raid content at this point. Especially if the suspicions that no expac is in the works are true. Not only their raid/fractal team got significantly weakened by layoffs, but also making them work on another wing (or some significant changes to existing ones) at the point where their experience could be better used elsewhere would probably not be a good idea. I'd say that at the moment what the game needs more is a content aimed at a general populace. Something that can at least give something to do to a lot of players while they'll wait for Anet to get their house in order. Content for a small minority of hardcore players is probably needed the least at the moment (and that's assuming we even ever needed as much of it as we've got).

    At the very least, I’m still hoping Wing 7 gets released, to finish the ring collection and the odd cliff hanger from Wing 6.

    Wing 8 would have to introduce a new carrot anyways, so I imagine they may stop there and put raids on hiatus until things improve.

  • phs.6089phs.6089 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 4, 2019
    We need both easy and hard modes

    Easy mods don't make raid-centered MMORPGs. Locking initial/mid/top tier gear behind raids does.
    Adding a valuable, unique loot to hard mods makes raid centered MMORPG.
    Adding tier test to pass a boss kill for increase everyday reward, making raid-centered MMORPG.

    5-6 people working on raids and adding a CM mote for a single run, surely can add a mote for easy mode.

    "There is always a lighthouse, there's always a man, there's always a city."

  • flog.3485flog.3485 Member ✭✭✭
    Raids are fine the way they are, combining bosses of various difficulties

    @phs.6089 said:
    Easy mods don't make raid-centered MMORPGs. Locking initial/mid/top tier gear behind raids does.
    Adding a valuable, unique loot to hard mods makes raid centered MMORPG.
    Adding tier test to pass a boss kill for increase everyday reward, making raid-centered MMORPG.

    5-6 people working on raids and adding a CM mote for a single run, surely can add a mote for easy mode.

    Of course it does, easy mode do make raid-centered MMORPGs. In fact, you are contradicting yourself in the first sentence. That is the entire reason why raids force you to go instanced content to get the appropriate gear and justify the need to do so with an easy mode, because not every palyer will agree to do the most difficult content.
    The majority of the guild wars 2 playerbase will never go into instanced content if they can get the best stats in open world just like the majority of the playerbase will never attempt dungeons at low level if they can get to 80 without doing any form of instanced group content. Remember when any point in the game, some form of progression was locked behind instanced content, how the community reacted ?
    End of story gated behind Arah ? Please make it solo (and now you even some who demands all the other dungeon story to be made soloable when, in fact, you can already solo it).
    Mastery progression locked behind raid in the form of acquiring spirit shards ? Instant complain about how some players needed to kill one boss in order to unlock the raid mastery so that thery could gain spirit shards, yet still without needing to fully commit to raids.

    At this point, the only thing that could make easy mode raiding worth developing, is if the horizontal mastery progression was locked behind raids again. But then it would also need other exclusive rewards that you can't get in open world nor in fractals nor in higher difficulty raids. Good luck finding that.

    And most importantly, good luck changing the games' general mindset that it has always been possible to play it without needing to go into group instanced content to get the best gear.

  • phs.6089phs.6089 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 4, 2019
    We need both easy and hard modes

    @flog.3485 said:

    @phs.6089 said:
    Easy mods don't make raid-centered MMORPGs. Locking initial/mid/top tier gear behind raids does.
    Adding a valuable, unique loot to hard mods makes raid centered MMORPG.
    Adding tier test to pass a boss kill for increase everyday reward, making raid-centered MMORPG.

    5-6 people working on raids and adding a CM mote for a single run, surely can add a mote for easy mode.

    Of course it does, easy mode do make raid-centered MMORPGs. In fact, you are contradicting yourself in the first sentence. That is the entire reason why raids force you to go instanced content to get the appropriate gear and justify the need to do so with an easy mode, because not every palyer will agree to do the most difficult content.
    The majority of the guild wars 2 playerbase will never go into instanced content if they can get the best stats in open world just like the majority of the playerbase will never attempt dungeons at low level if they can get to 80 without doing any form of instanced group content. Remember when any point in the game, some form of progression was locked behind instanced content, how the community reacted ?
    End of story gated behind Arah ? Please make it solo (and now you even some who demands all the other dungeon story to be made soloable when, in fact, you can already solo it).
    Mastery progression locked behind raid in the form of acquiring spirit shards ? Instant complain about how some players needed to kill one boss in order to unlock the raid mastery so that thery could gain spirit shards, yet still without needing to fully commit to raids.

    At this point, the only thing that could make easy mode raiding worth developing, is if the horizontal mastery progression was locked behind raids again. But then it would also need other exclusive rewards that you can't get in open world nor in fractals nor in higher difficulty raids. Good luck finding that.

    And most importantly, good luck changing the games' general mindset that it has always been possible to play it without needing to go into group instanced content to get the best gear.

    I'm not sure I'm flowing. It's easier to get your gear from OW then from any other kind of game-mode including instanced pve.
    Otherwise this game would have been 'fractals' centered for long now.
    Tho farctals are text book example of instanced pve centered game yet most of the people get first gear by crafting and farming berries.

    Because gear isn't locked behind fractals.

    "There is always a lighthouse, there's always a man, there's always a city."

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭
    Raids are fine the way they are, combining bosses of various difficulties

    @phs.6089 said:

    @flog.3485 said:

    @phs.6089 said:
    Easy mods don't make raid-centered MMORPGs. Locking initial/mid/top tier gear behind raids does.
    Adding a valuable, unique loot to hard mods makes raid centered MMORPG.
    Adding tier test to pass a boss kill for increase everyday reward, making raid-centered MMORPG.

    5-6 people working on raids and adding a CM mote for a single run, surely can add a mote for easy mode.

    Of course it does, easy mode do make raid-centered MMORPGs. In fact, you are contradicting yourself in the first sentence. That is the entire reason why raids force you to go instanced content to get the appropriate gear and justify the need to do so with an easy mode, because not every palyer will agree to do the most difficult content.
    The majority of the guild wars 2 playerbase will never go into instanced content if they can get the best stats in open world just like the majority of the playerbase will never attempt dungeons at low level if they can get to 80 without doing any form of instanced group content. Remember when any point in the game, some form of progression was locked behind instanced content, how the community reacted ?
    End of story gated behind Arah ? Please make it solo (and now you even some who demands all the other dungeon story to be made soloable when, in fact, you can already solo it).
    Mastery progression locked behind raid in the form of acquiring spirit shards ? Instant complain about how some players needed to kill one boss in order to unlock the raid mastery so that thery could gain spirit shards, yet still without needing to fully commit to raids.

    At this point, the only thing that could make easy mode raiding worth developing, is if the horizontal mastery progression was locked behind raids again. But then it would also need other exclusive rewards that you can't get in open world nor in fractals nor in higher difficulty raids. Good luck finding that.

    And most importantly, good luck changing the games' general mindset that it has always been possible to play it without needing to go into group instanced content to get the best gear.

    I'm not sure I'm flowing. It's easier to get your gear from OW then from any other kind of game-mode including instanced pve.
    Otherwise this game would have been 'fractals' centered for long now.
    Tho farctals are text book example of instanced pve centered game yet most of the people get first gear by crafting and farming berries.

    Because gear isn't locked behind fractals.

    Well yes and no. The first and maybe second set are gained via farming and crafting. The only reason for this is agony resistance in T4 fractals.

    All further sets are gained via armor and ascended boxes for people who can T4.

    So if we wanted to apply the same conditions to raids and easy mode raids, there would have to be a lockout outside of gear (similar to agony resistance). A lot of raid capable players from other games coming over start in exotic gear and get their first full ascended armor via the collections.

    The reason why this game isn't fractal centric is that a lot of people neither want to get good enough to do T4 or shun the initial investment into ascended gear. It has nothing to do with the rewards since those are superior for ascended loot in fractals.

  • phs.6089phs.6089 Member ✭✭✭✭
    We need both easy and hard modes

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @phs.6089 said:

    @flog.3485 said:

    @phs.6089 said:
    Easy mods don't make raid-centered MMORPGs. Locking initial/mid/top tier gear behind raids does.
    Adding a valuable, unique loot to hard mods makes raid centered MMORPG.
    Adding tier test to pass a boss kill for increase everyday reward, making raid-centered MMORPG.

    5-6 people working on raids and adding a CM mote for a single run, surely can add a mote for easy mode.

    Of course it does, easy mode do make raid-centered MMORPGs. In fact, you are contradicting yourself in the first sentence. That is the entire reason why raids force you to go instanced content to get the appropriate gear and justify the need to do so with an easy mode, because not every palyer will agree to do the most difficult content.
    The majority of the guild wars 2 playerbase will never go into instanced content if they can get the best stats in open world just like the majority of the playerbase will never attempt dungeons at low level if they can get to 80 without doing any form of instanced group content. Remember when any point in the game, some form of progression was locked behind instanced content, how the community reacted ?
    End of story gated behind Arah ? Please make it solo (and now you even some who demands all the other dungeon story to be made soloable when, in fact, you can already solo it).
    Mastery progression locked behind raid in the form of acquiring spirit shards ? Instant complain about how some players needed to kill one boss in order to unlock the raid mastery so that thery could gain spirit shards, yet still without needing to fully commit to raids.

    At this point, the only thing that could make easy mode raiding worth developing, is if the horizontal mastery progression was locked behind raids again. But then it would also need other exclusive rewards that you can't get in open world nor in fractals nor in higher difficulty raids. Good luck finding that.

    And most importantly, good luck changing the games' general mindset that it has always been possible to play it without needing to go into group instanced content to get the best gear.

    I'm not sure I'm flowing. It's easier to get your gear from OW then from any other kind of game-mode including instanced pve.
    Otherwise this game would have been 'fractals' centered for long now.
    Tho farctals are text book example of instanced pve centered game yet most of the people get first gear by crafting and farming berries.

    Because gear isn't locked behind fractals.

    Well yes and no. The first and maybe second set are gained via farming and crafting. The only reason for this is agony resistance in T4 fractals.

    All further sets are gained via armor and ascended boxes for people who can T4.

    So if we wanted to apply the same conditions to raids and easy mode raids, there would have to be a lockout outside of gear (similar to agony resistance). A lot of raid capable players from other games coming over start in exotic gear and get their first full ascended armor via the collections.

    The reason why this game isn't fractal centric is that a lot of people neither want to get good enough to do T4 or shun the initial investment into ascended gear. It has nothing to do with the rewards since those are superior for ascended loot in fractals.

    But you will agree with me that fractals are more successful then raids. Fractals have way more players then raids.

    "There is always a lighthouse, there's always a man, there's always a city."

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 4, 2019
    Raids are fine the way they are, combining bosses of various difficulties

    @phs.6089 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @phs.6089 said:

    @flog.3485 said:

    @phs.6089 said:
    Easy mods don't make raid-centered MMORPGs. Locking initial/mid/top tier gear behind raids does.
    Adding a valuable, unique loot to hard mods makes raid centered MMORPG.
    Adding tier test to pass a boss kill for increase everyday reward, making raid-centered MMORPG.

    5-6 people working on raids and adding a CM mote for a single run, surely can add a mote for easy mode.

    Of course it does, easy mode do make raid-centered MMORPGs. In fact, you are contradicting yourself in the first sentence. That is the entire reason why raids force you to go instanced content to get the appropriate gear and justify the need to do so with an easy mode, because not every palyer will agree to do the most difficult content.
    The majority of the guild wars 2 playerbase will never go into instanced content if they can get the best stats in open world just like the majority of the playerbase will never attempt dungeons at low level if they can get to 80 without doing any form of instanced group content. Remember when any point in the game, some form of progression was locked behind instanced content, how the community reacted ?
    End of story gated behind Arah ? Please make it solo (and now you even some who demands all the other dungeon story to be made soloable when, in fact, you can already solo it).
    Mastery progression locked behind raid in the form of acquiring spirit shards ? Instant complain about how some players needed to kill one boss in order to unlock the raid mastery so that thery could gain spirit shards, yet still without needing to fully commit to raids.

    At this point, the only thing that could make easy mode raiding worth developing, is if the horizontal mastery progression was locked behind raids again. But then it would also need other exclusive rewards that you can't get in open world nor in fractals nor in higher difficulty raids. Good luck finding that.

    And most importantly, good luck changing the games' general mindset that it has always been possible to play it without needing to go into group instanced content to get the best gear.

    I'm not sure I'm flowing. It's easier to get your gear from OW then from any other kind of game-mode including instanced pve.
    Otherwise this game would have been 'fractals' centered for long now.
    Tho farctals are text book example of instanced pve centered game yet most of the people get first gear by crafting and farming berries.

    Because gear isn't locked behind fractals.

    Well yes and no. The first and maybe second set are gained via farming and crafting. The only reason for this is agony resistance in T4 fractals.

    All further sets are gained via armor and ascended boxes for people who can T4.

    So if we wanted to apply the same conditions to raids and easy mode raids, there would have to be a lockout outside of gear (similar to agony resistance). A lot of raid capable players from other games coming over start in exotic gear and get their first full ascended armor via the collections.

    The reason why this game isn't fractal centric is that a lot of people neither want to get good enough to do T4 or shun the initial investment into ascended gear. It has nothing to do with the rewards since those are superior for ascended loot in fractals.

    But you will agree with me that fractals are more successful then raids. Fractals have way more players then raids.

    Fractals are also:

    • easier to organize since only 5 people are required
    • way better reward per time invested
    • way less mechanic heavy or class setup dependent

    Those 3 alone are factors which make fractals more desired than raids aside from the difficulty. It's comparing apples to oranges. You could compare fractal CMs to raids, sure. How much do normal fractals, even T4, prepare people for CMs and how much do CMs benefit from fractals seeing a lot of play? Almost none cause most people do not bother with CMs since they are not worth the effort and time invested.

  • phs.6089phs.6089 Member ✭✭✭✭
    We need both easy and hard modes

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @phs.6089 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @phs.6089 said:

    @flog.3485 said:

    @phs.6089 said:
    Easy mods don't make raid-centered MMORPGs. Locking initial/mid/top tier gear behind raids does.
    Adding a valuable, unique loot to hard mods makes raid centered MMORPG.
    Adding tier test to pass a boss kill for increase everyday reward, making raid-centered MMORPG.

    5-6 people working on raids and adding a CM mote for a single run, surely can add a mote for easy mode.

    Of course it does, easy mode do make raid-centered MMORPGs. In fact, you are contradicting yourself in the first sentence. That is the entire reason why raids force you to go instanced content to get the appropriate gear and justify the need to do so with an easy mode, because not every palyer will agree to do the most difficult content.
    The majority of the guild wars 2 playerbase will never go into instanced content if they can get the best stats in open world just like the majority of the playerbase will never attempt dungeons at low level if they can get to 80 without doing any form of instanced group content. Remember when any point in the game, some form of progression was locked behind instanced content, how the community reacted ?
    End of story gated behind Arah ? Please make it solo (and now you even some who demands all the other dungeon story to be made soloable when, in fact, you can already solo it).
    Mastery progression locked behind raid in the form of acquiring spirit shards ? Instant complain about how some players needed to kill one boss in order to unlock the raid mastery so that thery could gain spirit shards, yet still without needing to fully commit to raids.

    At this point, the only thing that could make easy mode raiding worth developing, is if the horizontal mastery progression was locked behind raids again. But then it would also need other exclusive rewards that you can't get in open world nor in fractals nor in higher difficulty raids. Good luck finding that.

    And most importantly, good luck changing the games' general mindset that it has always been possible to play it without needing to go into group instanced content to get the best gear.

    I'm not sure I'm flowing. It's easier to get your gear from OW then from any other kind of game-mode including instanced pve.
    Otherwise this game would have been 'fractals' centered for long now.
    Tho farctals are text book example of instanced pve centered game yet most of the people get first gear by crafting and farming berries.

    Because gear isn't locked behind fractals.

    Well yes and no. The first and maybe second set are gained via farming and crafting. The only reason for this is agony resistance in T4 fractals.

    All further sets are gained via armor and ascended boxes for people who can T4.

    So if we wanted to apply the same conditions to raids and easy mode raids, there would have to be a lockout outside of gear (similar to agony resistance). A lot of raid capable players from other games coming over start in exotic gear and get their first full ascended armor via the collections.

    The reason why this game isn't fractal centric is that a lot of people neither want to get good enough to do T4 or shun the initial investment into ascended gear. It has nothing to do with the rewards since those are superior for ascended loot in fractals.

    But you will agree with me that fractals are more successful then raids. Fractals have way more players then raids.

    Fractals are also:

    • easier to organize since only 5 people are required
    • way better reward per time invested
    • way less mechanic heavy or class setup dependent

    Those 3 alone are factors which make fractals more desired than raids aside from the difficulty. It's comparing apples to oranges. You could compare fractal CMs to raids, sure. How much do normal fractals, even T4, prepare people for CMs and how much do CMs benefit from fractals seeing a lot of play? Almost none cause most people do not bother with CMs since they are not worth the effort and time invested.

    you forgot to mention that fractals have difficulty tiers that give people chance to learn it

    "There is always a lighthouse, there's always a man, there's always a city."

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭
    Raids are fine the way they are, combining bosses of various difficulties

    @phs.6089 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @phs.6089 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @phs.6089 said:

    @flog.3485 said:

    @phs.6089 said:
    Easy mods don't make raid-centered MMORPGs. Locking initial/mid/top tier gear behind raids does.
    Adding a valuable, unique loot to hard mods makes raid centered MMORPG.
    Adding tier test to pass a boss kill for increase everyday reward, making raid-centered MMORPG.

    5-6 people working on raids and adding a CM mote for a single run, surely can add a mote for easy mode.

    Of course it does, easy mode do make raid-centered MMORPGs. In fact, you are contradicting yourself in the first sentence. That is the entire reason why raids force you to go instanced content to get the appropriate gear and justify the need to do so with an easy mode, because not every palyer will agree to do the most difficult content.
    The majority of the guild wars 2 playerbase will never go into instanced content if they can get the best stats in open world just like the majority of the playerbase will never attempt dungeons at low level if they can get to 80 without doing any form of instanced group content. Remember when any point in the game, some form of progression was locked behind instanced content, how the community reacted ?
    End of story gated behind Arah ? Please make it solo (and now you even some who demands all the other dungeon story to be made soloable when, in fact, you can already solo it).
    Mastery progression locked behind raid in the form of acquiring spirit shards ? Instant complain about how some players needed to kill one boss in order to unlock the raid mastery so that thery could gain spirit shards, yet still without needing to fully commit to raids.

    At this point, the only thing that could make easy mode raiding worth developing, is if the horizontal mastery progression was locked behind raids again. But then it would also need other exclusive rewards that you can't get in open world nor in fractals nor in higher difficulty raids. Good luck finding that.

    And most importantly, good luck changing the games' general mindset that it has always been possible to play it without needing to go into group instanced content to get the best gear.

    I'm not sure I'm flowing. It's easier to get your gear from OW then from any other kind of game-mode including instanced pve.
    Otherwise this game would have been 'fractals' centered for long now.
    Tho farctals are text book example of instanced pve centered game yet most of the people get first gear by crafting and farming berries.

    Because gear isn't locked behind fractals.

    Well yes and no. The first and maybe second set are gained via farming and crafting. The only reason for this is agony resistance in T4 fractals.

    All further sets are gained via armor and ascended boxes for people who can T4.

    So if we wanted to apply the same conditions to raids and easy mode raids, there would have to be a lockout outside of gear (similar to agony resistance). A lot of raid capable players from other games coming over start in exotic gear and get their first full ascended armor via the collections.

    The reason why this game isn't fractal centric is that a lot of people neither want to get good enough to do T4 or shun the initial investment into ascended gear. It has nothing to do with the rewards since those are superior for ascended loot in fractals.

    But you will agree with me that fractals are more successful then raids. Fractals have way more players then raids.

    Fractals are also:

    • easier to organize since only 5 people are required
    • way better reward per time invested
    • way less mechanic heavy or class setup dependent

    Those 3 alone are factors which make fractals more desired than raids aside from the difficulty. It's comparing apples to oranges. You could compare fractal CMs to raids, sure. How much do normal fractals, even T4, prepare people for CMs and how much do CMs benefit from fractals seeing a lot of play? Almost none cause most people do not bother with CMs since they are not worth the effort and time invested.

    you forgot to mention that fractals have difficulty tiers that give people chance to learn it

    No I didn't since I was addressing your argument about ascended gear. There is no barrier mechanic for raids, there is for fractals.

  • sigur.9453sigur.9453 Member ✭✭✭
    Raids are fine the way they are, combining bosses of various difficulties

    @phs.6089 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @phs.6089 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @phs.6089 said:

    @flog.3485 said:

    @phs.6089 said:
    Easy mods don't make raid-centered MMORPGs. Locking initial/mid/top tier gear behind raids does.
    Adding a valuable, unique loot to hard mods makes raid centered MMORPG.
    Adding tier test to pass a boss kill for increase everyday reward, making raid-centered MMORPG.

    5-6 people working on raids and adding a CM mote for a single run, surely can add a mote for easy mode.

    Of course it does, easy mode do make raid-centered MMORPGs. In fact, you are contradicting yourself in the first sentence. That is the entire reason why raids force you to go instanced content to get the appropriate gear and justify the need to do so with an easy mode, because not every palyer will agree to do the most difficult content.
    The majority of the guild wars 2 playerbase will never go into instanced content if they can get the best stats in open world just like the majority of the playerbase will never attempt dungeons at low level if they can get to 80 without doing any form of instanced group content. Remember when any point in the game, some form of progression was locked behind instanced content, how the community reacted ?
    End of story gated behind Arah ? Please make it solo (and now you even some who demands all the other dungeon story to be made soloable when, in fact, you can already solo it).
    Mastery progression locked behind raid in the form of acquiring spirit shards ? Instant complain about how some players needed to kill one boss in order to unlock the raid mastery so that thery could gain spirit shards, yet still without needing to fully commit to raids.

    At this point, the only thing that could make easy mode raiding worth developing, is if the horizontal mastery progression was locked behind raids again. But then it would also need other exclusive rewards that you can't get in open world nor in fractals nor in higher difficulty raids. Good luck finding that.

    And most importantly, good luck changing the games' general mindset that it has always been possible to play it without needing to go into group instanced content to get the best gear.

    I'm not sure I'm flowing. It's easier to get your gear from OW then from any other kind of game-mode including instanced pve.
    Otherwise this game would have been 'fractals' centered for long now.
    Tho farctals are text book example of instanced pve centered game yet most of the people get first gear by crafting and farming berries.

    Because gear isn't locked behind fractals.

    Well yes and no. The first and maybe second set are gained via farming and crafting. The only reason for this is agony resistance in T4 fractals.

    All further sets are gained via armor and ascended boxes for people who can T4.

    So if we wanted to apply the same conditions to raids and easy mode raids, there would have to be a lockout outside of gear (similar to agony resistance). A lot of raid capable players from other games coming over start in exotic gear and get their first full ascended armor via the collections.

    The reason why this game isn't fractal centric is that a lot of people neither want to get good enough to do T4 or shun the initial investment into ascended gear. It has nothing to do with the rewards since those are superior for ascended loot in fractals.

    But you will agree with me that fractals are more successful then raids. Fractals have way more players then raids.

    Fractals are also:

    • easier to organize since only 5 people are required
    • way better reward per time invested
    • way less mechanic heavy or class setup dependent

    Those 3 alone are factors which make fractals more desired than raids aside from the difficulty. It's comparing apples to oranges. You could compare fractal CMs to raids, sure. How much do normal fractals, even T4, prepare people for CMs and how much do CMs benefit from fractals seeing a lot of play? Almost none cause most people do not bother with CMs since they are not worth the effort and time invested.

    you forgot to mention that fractals have difficulty tiers that give people chance to learn it

    do not forget that fractals are DAYLIE content.
    i do not want to imagine if fractals only gave the boxes once/week. i highly doubt the lfg would be as active as it is now.

  • phs.6089phs.6089 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 4, 2019
    We need both easy and hard modes

    @sigur.9453 said:

    @phs.6089 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @phs.6089 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @phs.6089 said:

    @flog.3485 said:

    @phs.6089 said:
    Easy mods don't make raid-centered MMORPGs. Locking initial/mid/top tier gear behind raids does.
    Adding a valuable, unique loot to hard mods makes raid centered MMORPG.
    Adding tier test to pass a boss kill for increase everyday reward, making raid-centered MMORPG.

    5-6 people working on raids and adding a CM mote for a single run, surely can add a mote for easy mode.

    Of course it does, easy mode do make raid-centered MMORPGs. In fact, you are contradicting yourself in the first sentence. That is the entire reason why raids force you to go instanced content to get the appropriate gear and justify the need to do so with an easy mode, because not every palyer will agree to do the most difficult content.
    The majority of the guild wars 2 playerbase will never go into instanced content if they can get the best stats in open world just like the majority of the playerbase will never attempt dungeons at low level if they can get to 80 without doing any form of instanced group content. Remember when any point in the game, some form of progression was locked behind instanced content, how the community reacted ?
    End of story gated behind Arah ? Please make it solo (and now you even some who demands all the other dungeon story to be made soloable when, in fact, you can already solo it).
    Mastery progression locked behind raid in the form of acquiring spirit shards ? Instant complain about how some players needed to kill one boss in order to unlock the raid mastery so that thery could gain spirit shards, yet still without needing to fully commit to raids.

    At this point, the only thing that could make easy mode raiding worth developing, is if the horizontal mastery progression was locked behind raids again. But then it would also need other exclusive rewards that you can't get in open world nor in fractals nor in higher difficulty raids. Good luck finding that.

    And most importantly, good luck changing the games' general mindset that it has always been possible to play it without needing to go into group instanced content to get the best gear.

    I'm not sure I'm flowing. It's easier to get your gear from OW then from any other kind of game-mode including instanced pve.
    Otherwise this game would have been 'fractals' centered for long now.
    Tho farctals are text book example of instanced pve centered game yet most of the people get first gear by crafting and farming berries.

    Because gear isn't locked behind fractals.

    Well yes and no. The first and maybe second set are gained via farming and crafting. The only reason for this is agony resistance in T4 fractals.

    All further sets are gained via armor and ascended boxes for people who can T4.

    So if we wanted to apply the same conditions to raids and easy mode raids, there would have to be a lockout outside of gear (similar to agony resistance). A lot of raid capable players from other games coming over start in exotic gear and get their first full ascended armor via the collections.

    The reason why this game isn't fractal centric is that a lot of people neither want to get good enough to do T4 or shun the initial investment into ascended gear. It has nothing to do with the rewards since those are superior for ascended loot in fractals.

    But you will agree with me that fractals are more successful then raids. Fractals have way more players then raids.

    Fractals are also:

    • easier to organize since only 5 people are required
    • way better reward per time invested
    • way less mechanic heavy or class setup dependent

    Those 3 alone are factors which make fractals more desired than raids aside from the difficulty. It's comparing apples to oranges. You could compare fractal CMs to raids, sure. How much do normal fractals, even T4, prepare people for CMs and how much do CMs benefit from fractals seeing a lot of play? Almost none cause most people do not bother with CMs since they are not worth the effort and time invested.

    you forgot to mention that fractals have difficulty tiers that give people chance to learn it

    do not forget that fractals are DAYLIE content.
    i do not want to imagine if fractals only gave the boxes once/week. i highly doubt the lfg would be as active as it is now.

    Think outside of the box, what if easy raids were part of weekly content

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @phs.6089 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @phs.6089 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @phs.6089 said:

    @flog.3485 said:

    @phs.6089 said:
    Easy mods don't make raid-centered MMORPGs. Locking initial/mid/top tier gear behind raids does.
    Adding a valuable, unique loot to hard mods makes raid centered MMORPG.
    Adding tier test to pass a boss kill for increase everyday reward, making raid-centered MMORPG.

    5-6 people working on raids and adding a CM mote for a single run, surely can add a mote for easy mode.

    Of course it does, easy mode do make raid-centered MMORPGs. In fact, you are contradicting yourself in the first sentence. That is the entire reason why raids force you to go instanced content to get the appropriate gear and justify the need to do so with an easy mode, because not every palyer will agree to do the most difficult content.
    The majority of the guild wars 2 playerbase will never go into instanced content if they can get the best stats in open world just like the majority of the playerbase will never attempt dungeons at low level if they can get to 80 without doing any form of instanced group content. Remember when any point in the game, some form of progression was locked behind instanced content, how the community reacted ?
    End of story gated behind Arah ? Please make it solo (and now you even some who demands all the other dungeon story to be made soloable when, in fact, you can already solo it).
    Mastery progression locked behind raid in the form of acquiring spirit shards ? Instant complain about how some players needed to kill one boss in order to unlock the raid mastery so that thery could gain spirit shards, yet still without needing to fully commit to raids.

    At this point, the only thing that could make easy mode raiding worth developing, is if the horizontal mastery progression was locked behind raids again. But then it would also need other exclusive rewards that you can't get in open world nor in fractals nor in higher difficulty raids. Good luck finding that.

    And most importantly, good luck changing the games' general mindset that it has always been possible to play it without needing to go into group instanced content to get the best gear.

    I'm not sure I'm flowing. It's easier to get your gear from OW then from any other kind of game-mode including instanced pve.
    Otherwise this game would have been 'fractals' centered for long now.
    Tho farctals are text book example of instanced pve centered game yet most of the people get first gear by crafting and farming berries.

    Because gear isn't locked behind fractals.

    Well yes and no. The first and maybe second set are gained via farming and crafting. The only reason for this is agony resistance in T4 fractals.

    All further sets are gained via armor and ascended boxes for people who can T4.

    So if we wanted to apply the same conditions to raids and easy mode raids, there would have to be a lockout outside of gear (similar to agony resistance). A lot of raid capable players from other games coming over start in exotic gear and get their first full ascended armor via the collections.

    The reason why this game isn't fractal centric is that a lot of people neither want to get good enough to do T4 or shun the initial investment into ascended gear. It has nothing to do with the rewards since those are superior for ascended loot in fractals.

    But you will agree with me that fractals are more successful then raids. Fractals have way more players then raids.

    Fractals are also:

    • easier to organize since only 5 people are required
    • way better reward per time invested
    • way less mechanic heavy or class setup dependent

    Those 3 alone are factors which make fractals more desired than raids aside from the difficulty. It's comparing apples to oranges. You could compare fractal CMs to raids, sure. How much do normal fractals, even T4, prepare people for CMs and how much do CMs benefit from fractals seeing a lot of play? Almost none cause most people do not bother with CMs since they are not worth the effort and time invested.

    you forgot to mention that fractals have difficulty tiers that give people chance to learn it

    No I didn't since I was addressing your argument about ascended gear. There is no barrier mechanic for raids, there is for fractals.

    yet Fractals are more successful

    "There is always a lighthouse, there's always a man, there's always a city."

  • sigur.9453sigur.9453 Member ✭✭✭
    Raids are fine the way they are, combining bosses of various difficulties

    @phs.6089 said:

    @sigur.9453 said:

    @phs.6089 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @phs.6089 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @phs.6089 said:

    @flog.3485 said:

    @phs.6089 said:
    Easy mods don't make raid-centered MMORPGs. Locking initial/mid/top tier gear behind raids does.
    Adding a valuable, unique loot to hard mods makes raid centered MMORPG.
    Adding tier test to pass a boss kill for increase everyday reward, making raid-centered MMORPG.

    5-6 people working on raids and adding a CM mote for a single run, surely can add a mote for easy mode.

    Of course it does, easy mode do make raid-centered MMORPGs. In fact, you are contradicting yourself in the first sentence. That is the entire reason why raids force you to go instanced content to get the appropriate gear and justify the need to do so with an easy mode, because not every palyer will agree to do the most difficult content.
    The majority of the guild wars 2 playerbase will never go into instanced content if they can get the best stats in open world just like the majority of the playerbase will never attempt dungeons at low level if they can get to 80 without doing any form of instanced group content. Remember when any point in the game, some form of progression was locked behind instanced content, how the community reacted ?
    End of story gated behind Arah ? Please make it solo (and now you even some who demands all the other dungeon story to be made soloable when, in fact, you can already solo it).
    Mastery progression locked behind raid in the form of acquiring spirit shards ? Instant complain about how some players needed to kill one boss in order to unlock the raid mastery so that thery could gain spirit shards, yet still without needing to fully commit to raids.

    At this point, the only thing that could make easy mode raiding worth developing, is if the horizontal mastery progression was locked behind raids again. But then it would also need other exclusive rewards that you can't get in open world nor in fractals nor in higher difficulty raids. Good luck finding that.

    And most importantly, good luck changing the games' general mindset that it has always been possible to play it without needing to go into group instanced content to get the best gear.

    I'm not sure I'm flowing. It's easier to get your gear from OW then from any other kind of game-mode including instanced pve.
    Otherwise this game would have been 'fractals' centered for long now.
    Tho farctals are text book example of instanced pve centered game yet most of the people get first gear by crafting and farming berries.

    Because gear isn't locked behind fractals.

    Well yes and no. The first and maybe second set are gained via farming and crafting. The only reason for this is agony resistance in T4 fractals.

    All further sets are gained via armor and ascended boxes for people who can T4.

    So if we wanted to apply the same conditions to raids and easy mode raids, there would have to be a lockout outside of gear (similar to agony resistance). A lot of raid capable players from other games coming over start in exotic gear and get their first full ascended armor via the collections.

    The reason why this game isn't fractal centric is that a lot of people neither want to get good enough to do T4 or shun the initial investment into ascended gear. It has nothing to do with the rewards since those are superior for ascended loot in fractals.

    But you will agree with me that fractals are more successful then raids. Fractals have way more players then raids.

    Fractals are also:

    • easier to organize since only 5 people are required
    • way better reward per time invested
    • way less mechanic heavy or class setup dependent

    Those 3 alone are factors which make fractals more desired than raids aside from the difficulty. It's comparing apples to oranges. You could compare fractal CMs to raids, sure. How much do normal fractals, even T4, prepare people for CMs and how much do CMs benefit from fractals seeing a lot of play? Almost none cause most people do not bother with CMs since they are not worth the effort and time invested.

    you forgot to mention that fractals have difficulty tiers that give people chance to learn it

    do not forget that fractals are DAYLIE content.
    i do not want to imagine if fractals only gave the boxes once/week. i highly doubt the lfg would be as active as it is now.

    Think outside of the box, what if easy raids were part of weekly content

    "recommended raids " you mean?

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