Do raids need easy/normal/hard difficulty mode? [merged] - Page 90 — Guild Wars 2 Forums

Do raids need easy/normal/hard difficulty mode? [merged]

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Comments

  • phs.6089phs.6089 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 4, 2019
    We need both easy and hard modes

    @sigur.9453 said:

    @phs.6089 said:

    @sigur.9453 said:

    @phs.6089 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @phs.6089 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @phs.6089 said:

    @flog.3485 said:

    @phs.6089 said:
    Easy mods don't make raid-centered MMORPGs. Locking initial/mid/top tier gear behind raids does.
    Adding a valuable, unique loot to hard mods makes raid centered MMORPG.
    Adding tier test to pass a boss kill for increase everyday reward, making raid-centered MMORPG.

    5-6 people working on raids and adding a CM mote for a single run, surely can add a mote for easy mode.

    Of course it does, easy mode do make raid-centered MMORPGs. In fact, you are contradicting yourself in the first sentence. That is the entire reason why raids force you to go instanced content to get the appropriate gear and justify the need to do so with an easy mode, because not every palyer will agree to do the most difficult content.
    The majority of the guild wars 2 playerbase will never go into instanced content if they can get the best stats in open world just like the majority of the playerbase will never attempt dungeons at low level if they can get to 80 without doing any form of instanced group content. Remember when any point in the game, some form of progression was locked behind instanced content, how the community reacted ?
    End of story gated behind Arah ? Please make it solo (and now you even some who demands all the other dungeon story to be made soloable when, in fact, you can already solo it).
    Mastery progression locked behind raid in the form of acquiring spirit shards ? Instant complain about how some players needed to kill one boss in order to unlock the raid mastery so that thery could gain spirit shards, yet still without needing to fully commit to raids.

    At this point, the only thing that could make easy mode raiding worth developing, is if the horizontal mastery progression was locked behind raids again. But then it would also need other exclusive rewards that you can't get in open world nor in fractals nor in higher difficulty raids. Good luck finding that.

    And most importantly, good luck changing the games' general mindset that it has always been possible to play it without needing to go into group instanced content to get the best gear.

    I'm not sure I'm flowing. It's easier to get your gear from OW then from any other kind of game-mode including instanced pve.
    Otherwise this game would have been 'fractals' centered for long now.
    Tho farctals are text book example of instanced pve centered game yet most of the people get first gear by crafting and farming berries.

    Because gear isn't locked behind fractals.

    Well yes and no. The first and maybe second set are gained via farming and crafting. The only reason for this is agony resistance in T4 fractals.

    All further sets are gained via armor and ascended boxes for people who can T4.

    So if we wanted to apply the same conditions to raids and easy mode raids, there would have to be a lockout outside of gear (similar to agony resistance). A lot of raid capable players from other games coming over start in exotic gear and get their first full ascended armor via the collections.

    The reason why this game isn't fractal centric is that a lot of people neither want to get good enough to do T4 or shun the initial investment into ascended gear. It has nothing to do with the rewards since those are superior for ascended loot in fractals.

    But you will agree with me that fractals are more successful then raids. Fractals have way more players then raids.

    Fractals are also:

    • easier to organize since only 5 people are required
    • way better reward per time invested
    • way less mechanic heavy or class setup dependent

    Those 3 alone are factors which make fractals more desired than raids aside from the difficulty. It's comparing apples to oranges. You could compare fractal CMs to raids, sure. How much do normal fractals, even T4, prepare people for CMs and how much do CMs benefit from fractals seeing a lot of play? Almost none cause most people do not bother with CMs since they are not worth the effort and time invested.

    you forgot to mention that fractals have difficulty tiers that give people chance to learn it

    do not forget that fractals are DAYLIE content.
    i do not want to imagine if fractals only gave the boxes once/week. i highly doubt the lfg would be as active as it is now.

    Think outside of the box, what if easy raids were part of weekly content

    "recommended raids " you mean?

    a single one, per week fro bit of loot and some AP

    "There is always a lighthouse, there's always a man, there's always a city."

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 4, 2019
    Raids are fine the way they are, combining bosses of various difficulties

    @phs.6089 said:

    @sigur.9453 said:

    @phs.6089 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @phs.6089 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @phs.6089 said:

    @flog.3485 said:

    @phs.6089 said:
    Easy mods don't make raid-centered MMORPGs. Locking initial/mid/top tier gear behind raids does.
    Adding a valuable, unique loot to hard mods makes raid centered MMORPG.
    Adding tier test to pass a boss kill for increase everyday reward, making raid-centered MMORPG.

    5-6 people working on raids and adding a CM mote for a single run, surely can add a mote for easy mode.

    Of course it does, easy mode do make raid-centered MMORPGs. In fact, you are contradicting yourself in the first sentence. That is the entire reason why raids force you to go instanced content to get the appropriate gear and justify the need to do so with an easy mode, because not every palyer will agree to do the most difficult content.
    The majority of the guild wars 2 playerbase will never go into instanced content if they can get the best stats in open world just like the majority of the playerbase will never attempt dungeons at low level if they can get to 80 without doing any form of instanced group content. Remember when any point in the game, some form of progression was locked behind instanced content, how the community reacted ?
    End of story gated behind Arah ? Please make it solo (and now you even some who demands all the other dungeon story to be made soloable when, in fact, you can already solo it).
    Mastery progression locked behind raid in the form of acquiring spirit shards ? Instant complain about how some players needed to kill one boss in order to unlock the raid mastery so that thery could gain spirit shards, yet still without needing to fully commit to raids.

    At this point, the only thing that could make easy mode raiding worth developing, is if the horizontal mastery progression was locked behind raids again. But then it would also need other exclusive rewards that you can't get in open world nor in fractals nor in higher difficulty raids. Good luck finding that.

    And most importantly, good luck changing the games' general mindset that it has always been possible to play it without needing to go into group instanced content to get the best gear.

    I'm not sure I'm flowing. It's easier to get your gear from OW then from any other kind of game-mode including instanced pve.
    Otherwise this game would have been 'fractals' centered for long now.
    Tho farctals are text book example of instanced pve centered game yet most of the people get first gear by crafting and farming berries.

    Because gear isn't locked behind fractals.

    Well yes and no. The first and maybe second set are gained via farming and crafting. The only reason for this is agony resistance in T4 fractals.

    All further sets are gained via armor and ascended boxes for people who can T4.

    So if we wanted to apply the same conditions to raids and easy mode raids, there would have to be a lockout outside of gear (similar to agony resistance). A lot of raid capable players from other games coming over start in exotic gear and get their first full ascended armor via the collections.

    The reason why this game isn't fractal centric is that a lot of people neither want to get good enough to do T4 or shun the initial investment into ascended gear. It has nothing to do with the rewards since those are superior for ascended loot in fractals.

    But you will agree with me that fractals are more successful then raids. Fractals have way more players then raids.

    Fractals are also:

    • easier to organize since only 5 people are required
    • way better reward per time invested
    • way less mechanic heavy or class setup dependent

    Those 3 alone are factors which make fractals more desired than raids aside from the difficulty. It's comparing apples to oranges. You could compare fractal CMs to raids, sure. How much do normal fractals, even T4, prepare people for CMs and how much do CMs benefit from fractals seeing a lot of play? Almost none cause most people do not bother with CMs since they are not worth the effort and time invested.

    you forgot to mention that fractals have difficulty tiers that give people chance to learn it

    do not forget that fractals are DAYLIE content.
    i do not want to imagine if fractals only gave the boxes once/week. i highly doubt the lfg would be as active as it is now.

    Think outside of the box, what if easy raids were part of weekly content

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @phs.6089 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @phs.6089 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @phs.6089 said:

    @flog.3485 said:

    @phs.6089 said:
    Easy mods don't make raid-centered MMORPGs. Locking initial/mid/top tier gear behind raids does.
    Adding a valuable, unique loot to hard mods makes raid centered MMORPG.
    Adding tier test to pass a boss kill for increase everyday reward, making raid-centered MMORPG.

    5-6 people working on raids and adding a CM mote for a single run, surely can add a mote for easy mode.

    Of course it does, easy mode do make raid-centered MMORPGs. In fact, you are contradicting yourself in the first sentence. That is the entire reason why raids force you to go instanced content to get the appropriate gear and justify the need to do so with an easy mode, because not every palyer will agree to do the most difficult content.
    The majority of the guild wars 2 playerbase will never go into instanced content if they can get the best stats in open world just like the majority of the playerbase will never attempt dungeons at low level if they can get to 80 without doing any form of instanced group content. Remember when any point in the game, some form of progression was locked behind instanced content, how the community reacted ?
    End of story gated behind Arah ? Please make it solo (and now you even some who demands all the other dungeon story to be made soloable when, in fact, you can already solo it).
    Mastery progression locked behind raid in the form of acquiring spirit shards ? Instant complain about how some players needed to kill one boss in order to unlock the raid mastery so that thery could gain spirit shards, yet still without needing to fully commit to raids.

    At this point, the only thing that could make easy mode raiding worth developing, is if the horizontal mastery progression was locked behind raids again. But then it would also need other exclusive rewards that you can't get in open world nor in fractals nor in higher difficulty raids. Good luck finding that.

    And most importantly, good luck changing the games' general mindset that it has always been possible to play it without needing to go into group instanced content to get the best gear.

    I'm not sure I'm flowing. It's easier to get your gear from OW then from any other kind of game-mode including instanced pve.
    Otherwise this game would have been 'fractals' centered for long now.
    Tho farctals are text book example of instanced pve centered game yet most of the people get first gear by crafting and farming berries.

    Because gear isn't locked behind fractals.

    Well yes and no. The first and maybe second set are gained via farming and crafting. The only reason for this is agony resistance in T4 fractals.

    All further sets are gained via armor and ascended boxes for people who can T4.

    So if we wanted to apply the same conditions to raids and easy mode raids, there would have to be a lockout outside of gear (similar to agony resistance). A lot of raid capable players from other games coming over start in exotic gear and get their first full ascended armor via the collections.

    The reason why this game isn't fractal centric is that a lot of people neither want to get good enough to do T4 or shun the initial investment into ascended gear. It has nothing to do with the rewards since those are superior for ascended loot in fractals.

    But you will agree with me that fractals are more successful then raids. Fractals have way more players then raids.

    Fractals are also:

    • easier to organize since only 5 people are required
    • way better reward per time invested
    • way less mechanic heavy or class setup dependent

    Those 3 alone are factors which make fractals more desired than raids aside from the difficulty. It's comparing apples to oranges. You could compare fractal CMs to raids, sure. How much do normal fractals, even T4, prepare people for CMs and how much do CMs benefit from fractals seeing a lot of play? Almost none cause most people do not bother with CMs since they are not worth the effort and time invested.

    you forgot to mention that fractals have difficulty tiers that give people chance to learn it

    No I didn't since I was addressing your argument about ascended gear. There is no barrier mechanic for raids, there is for fractals.

    yet Fractals are more successful

    I never said they weren't. I gave examples of some things which contribute to this outside of difficulty. You can ignore those factors, but they are way more significant than difficulty.

  • phs.6089phs.6089 Member ✭✭✭✭
    We need both easy and hard modes

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @phs.6089 said:

    @sigur.9453 said:

    @phs.6089 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @phs.6089 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @phs.6089 said:

    @flog.3485 said:

    @phs.6089 said:
    Easy mods don't make raid-centered MMORPGs. Locking initial/mid/top tier gear behind raids does.
    Adding a valuable, unique loot to hard mods makes raid centered MMORPG.
    Adding tier test to pass a boss kill for increase everyday reward, making raid-centered MMORPG.

    5-6 people working on raids and adding a CM mote for a single run, surely can add a mote for easy mode.

    Of course it does, easy mode do make raid-centered MMORPGs. In fact, you are contradicting yourself in the first sentence. That is the entire reason why raids force you to go instanced content to get the appropriate gear and justify the need to do so with an easy mode, because not every palyer will agree to do the most difficult content.
    The majority of the guild wars 2 playerbase will never go into instanced content if they can get the best stats in open world just like the majority of the playerbase will never attempt dungeons at low level if they can get to 80 without doing any form of instanced group content. Remember when any point in the game, some form of progression was locked behind instanced content, how the community reacted ?
    End of story gated behind Arah ? Please make it solo (and now you even some who demands all the other dungeon story to be made soloable when, in fact, you can already solo it).
    Mastery progression locked behind raid in the form of acquiring spirit shards ? Instant complain about how some players needed to kill one boss in order to unlock the raid mastery so that thery could gain spirit shards, yet still without needing to fully commit to raids.

    At this point, the only thing that could make easy mode raiding worth developing, is if the horizontal mastery progression was locked behind raids again. But then it would also need other exclusive rewards that you can't get in open world nor in fractals nor in higher difficulty raids. Good luck finding that.

    And most importantly, good luck changing the games' general mindset that it has always been possible to play it without needing to go into group instanced content to get the best gear.

    I'm not sure I'm flowing. It's easier to get your gear from OW then from any other kind of game-mode including instanced pve.
    Otherwise this game would have been 'fractals' centered for long now.
    Tho farctals are text book example of instanced pve centered game yet most of the people get first gear by crafting and farming berries.

    Because gear isn't locked behind fractals.

    Well yes and no. The first and maybe second set are gained via farming and crafting. The only reason for this is agony resistance in T4 fractals.

    All further sets are gained via armor and ascended boxes for people who can T4.

    So if we wanted to apply the same conditions to raids and easy mode raids, there would have to be a lockout outside of gear (similar to agony resistance). A lot of raid capable players from other games coming over start in exotic gear and get their first full ascended armor via the collections.

    The reason why this game isn't fractal centric is that a lot of people neither want to get good enough to do T4 or shun the initial investment into ascended gear. It has nothing to do with the rewards since those are superior for ascended loot in fractals.

    But you will agree with me that fractals are more successful then raids. Fractals have way more players then raids.

    Fractals are also:

    • easier to organize since only 5 people are required
    • way better reward per time invested
    • way less mechanic heavy or class setup dependent

    Those 3 alone are factors which make fractals more desired than raids aside from the difficulty. It's comparing apples to oranges. You could compare fractal CMs to raids, sure. How much do normal fractals, even T4, prepare people for CMs and how much do CMs benefit from fractals seeing a lot of play? Almost none cause most people do not bother with CMs since they are not worth the effort and time invested.

    you forgot to mention that fractals have difficulty tiers that give people chance to learn it

    do not forget that fractals are DAYLIE content.
    i do not want to imagine if fractals only gave the boxes once/week. i highly doubt the lfg would be as active as it is now.

    Think outside of the box, what if easy raids were part of weekly content

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @phs.6089 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @phs.6089 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @phs.6089 said:

    @flog.3485 said:

    @phs.6089 said:
    Easy mods don't make raid-centered MMORPGs. Locking initial/mid/top tier gear behind raids does.
    Adding a valuable, unique loot to hard mods makes raid centered MMORPG.
    Adding tier test to pass a boss kill for increase everyday reward, making raid-centered MMORPG.

    5-6 people working on raids and adding a CM mote for a single run, surely can add a mote for easy mode.

    Of course it does, easy mode do make raid-centered MMORPGs. In fact, you are contradicting yourself in the first sentence. That is the entire reason why raids force you to go instanced content to get the appropriate gear and justify the need to do so with an easy mode, because not every palyer will agree to do the most difficult content.
    The majority of the guild wars 2 playerbase will never go into instanced content if they can get the best stats in open world just like the majority of the playerbase will never attempt dungeons at low level if they can get to 80 without doing any form of instanced group content. Remember when any point in the game, some form of progression was locked behind instanced content, how the community reacted ?
    End of story gated behind Arah ? Please make it solo (and now you even some who demands all the other dungeon story to be made soloable when, in fact, you can already solo it).
    Mastery progression locked behind raid in the form of acquiring spirit shards ? Instant complain about how some players needed to kill one boss in order to unlock the raid mastery so that thery could gain spirit shards, yet still without needing to fully commit to raids.

    At this point, the only thing that could make easy mode raiding worth developing, is if the horizontal mastery progression was locked behind raids again. But then it would also need other exclusive rewards that you can't get in open world nor in fractals nor in higher difficulty raids. Good luck finding that.

    And most importantly, good luck changing the games' general mindset that it has always been possible to play it without needing to go into group instanced content to get the best gear.

    I'm not sure I'm flowing. It's easier to get your gear from OW then from any other kind of game-mode including instanced pve.
    Otherwise this game would have been 'fractals' centered for long now.
    Tho farctals are text book example of instanced pve centered game yet most of the people get first gear by crafting and farming berries.

    Because gear isn't locked behind fractals.

    Well yes and no. The first and maybe second set are gained via farming and crafting. The only reason for this is agony resistance in T4 fractals.

    All further sets are gained via armor and ascended boxes for people who can T4.

    So if we wanted to apply the same conditions to raids and easy mode raids, there would have to be a lockout outside of gear (similar to agony resistance). A lot of raid capable players from other games coming over start in exotic gear and get their first full ascended armor via the collections.

    The reason why this game isn't fractal centric is that a lot of people neither want to get good enough to do T4 or shun the initial investment into ascended gear. It has nothing to do with the rewards since those are superior for ascended loot in fractals.

    But you will agree with me that fractals are more successful then raids. Fractals have way more players then raids.

    Fractals are also:

    • easier to organize since only 5 people are required
    • way better reward per time invested
    • way less mechanic heavy or class setup dependent

    Those 3 alone are factors which make fractals more desired than raids aside from the difficulty. It's comparing apples to oranges. You could compare fractal CMs to raids, sure. How much do normal fractals, even T4, prepare people for CMs and how much do CMs benefit from fractals seeing a lot of play? Almost none cause most people do not bother with CMs since they are not worth the effort and time invested.

    you forgot to mention that fractals have difficulty tiers that give people chance to learn it

    No I didn't since I was addressing your argument about ascended gear. There is no barrier mechanic for raids, there is for fractals.

    yet Fractals are more successful

    I never said they weren't. I gave examples of some things which contribute to this outside of difficulty. You can ignore those factors, but they are way more significant than difficulty.

    I'm not ignoring anything. I'm just here trying to understand what is the problem with having easy raids, while game has made fractals are those model is way more successful.
    Why any other game gives at least 2 difficulty tiers to any instanced pve.
    Developers time, not significant for playtime added
    People are not interested? They are
    Separate reward? It has to be
    So what is the problem here and why several of you try to say no to easy/training mode raids

    "There is always a lighthouse, there's always a man, there's always a city."

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 4, 2019
    Raids are fine the way they are, combining bosses of various difficulties

    @phs.6089 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @phs.6089 said:

    @sigur.9453 said:

    @phs.6089 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @phs.6089 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @phs.6089 said:

    @flog.3485 said:

    @phs.6089 said:
    Easy mods don't make raid-centered MMORPGs. Locking initial/mid/top tier gear behind raids does.
    Adding a valuable, unique loot to hard mods makes raid centered MMORPG.
    Adding tier test to pass a boss kill for increase everyday reward, making raid-centered MMORPG.

    5-6 people working on raids and adding a CM mote for a single run, surely can add a mote for easy mode.

    Of course it does, easy mode do make raid-centered MMORPGs. In fact, you are contradicting yourself in the first sentence. That is the entire reason why raids force you to go instanced content to get the appropriate gear and justify the need to do so with an easy mode, because not every palyer will agree to do the most difficult content.
    The majority of the guild wars 2 playerbase will never go into instanced content if they can get the best stats in open world just like the majority of the playerbase will never attempt dungeons at low level if they can get to 80 without doing any form of instanced group content. Remember when any point in the game, some form of progression was locked behind instanced content, how the community reacted ?
    End of story gated behind Arah ? Please make it solo (and now you even some who demands all the other dungeon story to be made soloable when, in fact, you can already solo it).
    Mastery progression locked behind raid in the form of acquiring spirit shards ? Instant complain about how some players needed to kill one boss in order to unlock the raid mastery so that thery could gain spirit shards, yet still without needing to fully commit to raids.

    At this point, the only thing that could make easy mode raiding worth developing, is if the horizontal mastery progression was locked behind raids again. But then it would also need other exclusive rewards that you can't get in open world nor in fractals nor in higher difficulty raids. Good luck finding that.

    And most importantly, good luck changing the games' general mindset that it has always been possible to play it without needing to go into group instanced content to get the best gear.

    I'm not sure I'm flowing. It's easier to get your gear from OW then from any other kind of game-mode including instanced pve.
    Otherwise this game would have been 'fractals' centered for long now.
    Tho farctals are text book example of instanced pve centered game yet most of the people get first gear by crafting and farming berries.

    Because gear isn't locked behind fractals.

    Well yes and no. The first and maybe second set are gained via farming and crafting. The only reason for this is agony resistance in T4 fractals.

    All further sets are gained via armor and ascended boxes for people who can T4.

    So if we wanted to apply the same conditions to raids and easy mode raids, there would have to be a lockout outside of gear (similar to agony resistance). A lot of raid capable players from other games coming over start in exotic gear and get their first full ascended armor via the collections.

    The reason why this game isn't fractal centric is that a lot of people neither want to get good enough to do T4 or shun the initial investment into ascended gear. It has nothing to do with the rewards since those are superior for ascended loot in fractals.

    But you will agree with me that fractals are more successful then raids. Fractals have way more players then raids.

    Fractals are also:

    • easier to organize since only 5 people are required
    • way better reward per time invested
    • way less mechanic heavy or class setup dependent

    Those 3 alone are factors which make fractals more desired than raids aside from the difficulty. It's comparing apples to oranges. You could compare fractal CMs to raids, sure. How much do normal fractals, even T4, prepare people for CMs and how much do CMs benefit from fractals seeing a lot of play? Almost none cause most people do not bother with CMs since they are not worth the effort and time invested.

    you forgot to mention that fractals have difficulty tiers that give people chance to learn it

    do not forget that fractals are DAYLIE content.
    i do not want to imagine if fractals only gave the boxes once/week. i highly doubt the lfg would be as active as it is now.

    Think outside of the box, what if easy raids were part of weekly content

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @phs.6089 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @phs.6089 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @phs.6089 said:

    @flog.3485 said:

    @phs.6089 said:
    Easy mods don't make raid-centered MMORPGs. Locking initial/mid/top tier gear behind raids does.
    Adding a valuable, unique loot to hard mods makes raid centered MMORPG.
    Adding tier test to pass a boss kill for increase everyday reward, making raid-centered MMORPG.

    5-6 people working on raids and adding a CM mote for a single run, surely can add a mote for easy mode.

    Of course it does, easy mode do make raid-centered MMORPGs. In fact, you are contradicting yourself in the first sentence. That is the entire reason why raids force you to go instanced content to get the appropriate gear and justify the need to do so with an easy mode, because not every palyer will agree to do the most difficult content.
    The majority of the guild wars 2 playerbase will never go into instanced content if they can get the best stats in open world just like the majority of the playerbase will never attempt dungeons at low level if they can get to 80 without doing any form of instanced group content. Remember when any point in the game, some form of progression was locked behind instanced content, how the community reacted ?
    End of story gated behind Arah ? Please make it solo (and now you even some who demands all the other dungeon story to be made soloable when, in fact, you can already solo it).
    Mastery progression locked behind raid in the form of acquiring spirit shards ? Instant complain about how some players needed to kill one boss in order to unlock the raid mastery so that thery could gain spirit shards, yet still without needing to fully commit to raids.

    At this point, the only thing that could make easy mode raiding worth developing, is if the horizontal mastery progression was locked behind raids again. But then it would also need other exclusive rewards that you can't get in open world nor in fractals nor in higher difficulty raids. Good luck finding that.

    And most importantly, good luck changing the games' general mindset that it has always been possible to play it without needing to go into group instanced content to get the best gear.

    I'm not sure I'm flowing. It's easier to get your gear from OW then from any other kind of game-mode including instanced pve.
    Otherwise this game would have been 'fractals' centered for long now.
    Tho farctals are text book example of instanced pve centered game yet most of the people get first gear by crafting and farming berries.

    Because gear isn't locked behind fractals.

    Well yes and no. The first and maybe second set are gained via farming and crafting. The only reason for this is agony resistance in T4 fractals.

    All further sets are gained via armor and ascended boxes for people who can T4.

    So if we wanted to apply the same conditions to raids and easy mode raids, there would have to be a lockout outside of gear (similar to agony resistance). A lot of raid capable players from other games coming over start in exotic gear and get their first full ascended armor via the collections.

    The reason why this game isn't fractal centric is that a lot of people neither want to get good enough to do T4 or shun the initial investment into ascended gear. It has nothing to do with the rewards since those are superior for ascended loot in fractals.

    But you will agree with me that fractals are more successful then raids. Fractals have way more players then raids.

    Fractals are also:

    • easier to organize since only 5 people are required
    • way better reward per time invested
    • way less mechanic heavy or class setup dependent

    Those 3 alone are factors which make fractals more desired than raids aside from the difficulty. It's comparing apples to oranges. You could compare fractal CMs to raids, sure. How much do normal fractals, even T4, prepare people for CMs and how much do CMs benefit from fractals seeing a lot of play? Almost none cause most people do not bother with CMs since they are not worth the effort and time invested.

    you forgot to mention that fractals have difficulty tiers that give people chance to learn it

    No I didn't since I was addressing your argument about ascended gear. There is no barrier mechanic for raids, there is for fractals.

    yet Fractals are more successful

    I never said they weren't. I gave examples of some things which contribute to this outside of difficulty. You can ignore those factors, but they are way more significant than difficulty.

    I'm not ignoring anything. I'm just here trying to understand what is the problem with having easy raids, while game has made fractals are those model is way more successful.

    They cost developer resources to be made. No, you can't simply have the same amount of people balance an entire new difficulty. It takes additional people and work.

    Why any other game gives at least 2 difficulty tiers to any instanced pve.

    Because in all those other games, the raids are part of the gear cycle and down the road get useless. There is way less reward balance to be considered. Raid loot reward here compared to other MMOs is abysmal. The only benefit is the perks of legendary armor currently.

    All this without getting into the complexity of not having a trinity in place here to which to build raid content around.

    @phs.6089 said:
    Developers time, not significant for playtime added

    I could think off of a dozen of things where this developer time could produce a lot more valuable content.

    @phs.6089 said:
    People are not interested? They are

    Not by the amount of players playing the game mode. This gets worse when splitting people among multiple difficulties.

    @phs.6089 said:
    Separate reward? It has to be

    Sure, so now we balance rewards on top of the content.

    @phs.6089 said:
    So what is the problem here and why several of you try to say no to easy/training mode raids

    Easy mode raids would automatically disqualify themselves as training since most of the mechanics in raids are not difficult. They are practice dependent. This has been repeated a million times by now.

    EDIT: let me rephrase that: most raid mechanics are not that difficult but need doing or they cause a wipe. Changing the mechanic removes the ability to practice it properly.

  • phs.6089phs.6089 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 4, 2019
    We need both easy and hard modes

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    They cost developer resources to be made. No, you can't simply have the same amount of people balance an entire new difficulty. It takes additional people and work.

    >
    You think they have separate teams to balance all 4 tiers of fractals? Sorry for disappointing you. It's a single code. With some functions that determining the difficulty.

    @Cyninja.2954 said:
    Sure, so now we balance rewards on top of the content.

    >
    Rewards are even more easier as game has events reward system, you know gold-200 karma, silver-100 karma etc. And this is a single example, when game has tons of assets to recycle.

    @Cyninja.2954 said:
    Not by the amount of players playing the game mode. This gets worse when splitting people among multiple difficulties.

    >
    That didn't affect fractals, right? There are learners on t1,2, there are people that stick to t3 for various reasons, there are daily t4 runners and there are daily cms+t4 runners.

    @Cyninja.2954 said:
    Easy mode raids would automatically disqualify themselves as training since most of the mechanics in raids are not difficult. They are practice dependent. This has >been repeated a million times by now.

    if this was true, we wouldn't be here talking of it.
    Weren't you the person that was arguing with someone that most raid bosses are hard to kill and your opponent never raided in this game

    "There is always a lighthouse, there's always a man, there's always a city."

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 4, 2019
    Raids are fine the way they are, combining bosses of various difficulties

    @phs.6089 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    They cost developer resources to be made. No, you can't simply have the same amount of people balance an entire new difficulty. It takes additional people and work.

    >
    You think they have separate teams to balance all 4 tiers of fractals? Sorry for disappointing you. It's a single code. With some functions that determining the difficulty.

    Fractals do not have:

    • tank mechanics
    • support requirements
    • special boss mechanics or encounter mechanics

    All of which need balancing. Some of which are instant kill so reworking those is tricky.

    @phs.6089 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:
    Sure, so now we balance rewards on top of the content.

    >
    Rewards are even more easier as game has events reward system, you know gold-200 karma, silver-100 karma etc. And this is a single example, when game has tons of assets to recycle.

    Rewards are one of the most tricky aspect to get right. You can't simply go: well this gives trash rewards, done.

    Actually you can, we have a lot of events like that in this game. Take a guess how much play they see.

    @phs.6089 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:
    Not by the amount of players playing the game mode. This gets worse when splitting people among multiple difficulties.

    >
    That didn't affect fractals, right? There are learners on t1,2, there are people that stick to t3 for various reasons, there are daily t4 runners and there are daily cms+t4 runners.

    Once again, there is a ton of factors affecting this beside difficulty. You are leading this conversation in circles.

    @phs.6089 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:
    Easy mode raids would automatically disqualify themselves as training since most of the mechanics in raids are not difficult. They are practice dependent. This has >been repeated a million times by now.

    if this was true, we wouldn't be here talking of it.
    Weren't you the person that was arguing with someone that most raid bosses are hard to kill and your opponent never raided in this game

    We are talking about this in a 90 page thread of which I doubt you have read most. If you wanted to take serious what has been said so far, go all the way back to the developer responses on the issue. No multiple difficulties.

    If by my opponent? (not sure this term fits here but w/e) you refer to people who lack raid experience to properly understand the work required, sure I might have brought that up. That doesn't change the fact that raid mechanics are not that difficult but require practice. Changing them would make it impossible to properly practice them. Which you would know if you raided.

  • phs.6089phs.6089 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 4, 2019
    We need both easy and hard modes

    Yes fractals don't have tanking, kiting etc, easy raids could have help to train new kiters, tanks etc as there isn't many veterans left .
    If half of the proper reward is trash, that means that full reward is trash as well?

    I do know the developers answer, there was nothing final.
    I aslo see the the game state and especially questionable raiding future in this game.
    Maybe it's already way too late to get easy raids.

    "There is always a lighthouse, there's always a man, there's always a city."

  • Vinceman.4572Vinceman.4572 Member ✭✭✭✭
    Raids are fine the way they are, combining bosses of various difficulties

    In Addition, don't forget that T1-T4 LFGs are pretty empty and mostly done (counts for T1s) because you need specific things for legendary weapons. Besides that there are only few people running lower tiers on a regular basis.
    It's questionable that an easy mode would satisfy such huge amount of players while you have encounters like Escort, Cairn, MO & Samarog which are easy to very easy to handle for beginners.
    Especially now after the recent layoffs (1/3 left the company, not "only" 100 employees) and some of the better known devs/staff members are gone. I'm more than sure that this led to a significant player loss as well.
    I stopped playing some weeks ago (before the show began) and I don't see any point in returning back earlier than for the next LS. And even then I won't stay very long. Wing 6 couldn't convince me, neither could Deepstone or Siren's reef. I think (and I hope) GW2 is done when thinking of "bigger things" in the future.

  • Tyson.5160Tyson.5160 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 4, 2019
    We need both easy and hard modes

    @Vinceman.4572 said:
    In Addition, don't forget that T1-T4 LFGs are pretty empty and mostly done (counts for T1s) because you need specific things for legendary weapons. Besides that there are only few people running lower tiers on a regular basis.
    It's questionable that an easy mode would satisfy such huge amount of players while you have encounters like Escort, Cairn, MO & Samarog which are easy to very easy to handle for beginners.
    Especially now after the recent layoffs (1/3 left the company, not "only" 100 employees) and some of the better known devs/staff members are gone. I'm more than sure that this led to a significant player loss as well.
    I stopped playing some weeks ago (before the show began) and I don't see any point in returning back earlier than for the next LS. And even then I won't stay very long. Wing 6 couldn't convince me, neither could Deepstone or Siren's reef. I think (and I hope) GW2 is done when thinking of "bigger things" in the future.

    I agree.

    As much I would love an easy mode right now, the GW2 ship is taking on water and starting to sink, meanwhile we are worried about a small torn sail.

    Let’s worry about draining the water and patching up the boat. Little good is a sail if the boat is sitting on the ocean floor.

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭
    Raids have problems, but we need a better solution

    @phs.6089 said:
    I'm not ignoring anything. I'm just here trying to understand what is the problem with having easy raids, while game has made fractals are those model is way more successful.

    Fractals more successful than Raids? How do you figure that exactly?

  • tim.4596tim.4596 Member ✭✭✭
    edited March 6, 2019
    We need a hard mode, but not an easy mode

    Is that post legit still running !!! This is insane. I forgot that there was a voting poll too. This is where you get exposed, for what you really want in this game apparently.

  • Astralporing.1957Astralporing.1957 Member ✭✭✭✭
    We need an easy mode, but not a hard mode

    @tim.4596 said:
    Is that post legit still running !!! This is insane.

    Why? It's not like anything changed since the topic started, so people that disliked the situation then aren't more likely to like it now. If they still play, of course.
    Hint: leaving problems unresolved for a time doesn't make them any less of a problem later.

    The whole point of a social game is to play with the people you want to play with, not be forced to play with the people you don't.

  • Vyrulisse.1246Vyrulisse.1246 Member ✭✭✭
    edited March 8, 2019

    Raids need a party finder automatic queue system like it works in FFXIV. A lot of people hate it but it gets people into raids all the time there. They also have a Normal/Savage divide. Most people queue up for Normal Raids and use the old style party finder for Savage. It works for everyone and a lot more people play the raids relative to their skill level because of it.

    It's not a perfect system but at least the content gets played by a lot of people because of ease of access and the fact that you only need to be semi-competent to complete normal mode raids and experience the story within.

    The only hitch is that I'm not sure if it would translate to GW2's system. FF has a hard trinity of Tanks, Healers and DPS and Guild Wars 2 does not so the entire idea could be moot.

  • Myriada.7580Myriada.7580 Member ✭✭
    Raids have problems, but we need a better solution

    @Vyrulisse.1246 said:
    Raids need a party finder automatic queue system like it works in FFXIV. A lot of people hate it but it gets people into raids all the time there. They also have a Normal/Savage divide. Most people queue up for Normal Raids and use the old style party finder for Savage. It works for everyone and a lot more people play the raids relative to their skill level because of it.

    It's not a perfect system but at least the content gets played by a lot of people because of ease of access and the fact that you only need to be semi-competent to complete normal mode raids and experience the story within.

    The only hitch is that I'm not sure if it would translate to GW2's system. FF has a hard trinity of Tanks, Healers and DPS and Guild Wars 2 does not so the entire idea could be moot.

    It would be a great tool if (1) the average player had a minimum understanding of their class/build, (2) bosses didn't have encounter especific mechanics that can be a pain to explain to anyone not familiar enough with it and (3) roles could be easily set up in the LFG.

    Fractals have in theory similar problems with 2 and 3 but can be solved by the use of tiers and the current LFG where you post what you're looking for and for what difficulty of content (even then tier 3 is a bit of a pain), and 1 seems to sort of solve itself as you make players gradually realize that mashing the good ol' 11111 is probably not good enough when you start to get the hang of fractals, although proper tutorials would be more than welcome.

    With how GW2 eases the use of different builds and multi-classing, an automated tool would make things clunkier and/or impose whichever roles Anet decides need to constitute a valid squad, so sticking to the LFG would be better.

    That said the current LFG for raids doesn't cut it at all, and even if it's actually not hard to start raiding, you need to put in way more effort than with fractals to even get a taste of it, so your average player might dismiss it as an insurmountable obstacle. I have mixed feelings about having story or easy mode raids, but if the raiding community hasn't meaningfully grown in the past years despite the multiple dedicated training guilds, it's probably time to add in something more casual-friendly to get players interested.

  • zaris.5076zaris.5076 Member ✭✭
    edited March 9, 2019
    We need both easy and hard modes

    fractals already has easy mod (t1) and why not for raids. wow lfr system is really great sample for this. newbie players get experience with lfr raids and they can get in to normal, heroic, mythic step by step. but the important thing is the first step.

    no good loot but people can taste the raids and get some mechanic experience.

    veteran players disagree with this but they can still go for cm raids with not issue. btw this wont effect them anymore. they r against for an easy mod, coz they got already a raiding group / guild and got many experiences for raiding. they do not care with newbie players anymore.

    also easy mode is not hurts them / their raiding / their groups. but they still against for it. cant understand this actually. wow and ff14 do this and its %100 necessary. its necessary for gw2 too.

  • phs.6089phs.6089 Member ✭✭✭✭
    We need both easy and hard modes

    @zaris.5076 said:
    fractals already has easy mod (t1) and why not for raids. wow lfr system is really great sample for this. newbie players get experience with lfr raids and they can get in to normal, heroic, mythic step by step. but the important thing is the first step.

    no good loot but people can taste the raids and get some mechanic experience.

    veteran players disagree with this but they can still go for cm raids with not issue. btw this wont effect them anymore. they r against for an easy mod, coz they got already a raiding group / guild and got many experiences for raiding. they do not care with newbie players anymore.

    also easy mode is not hurts them / their raiding / their groups. but they still against for it. cant understand this actually. wow and ff14 do this and its %100 necessary. its necessary for gw2 too.

    You will laugh CM in raids is a one time thing, meaning you can kill a boss on CM, a kitten single time for achievement. Talk about wasted resources and developers time.

    "There is always a lighthouse, there's always a man, there's always a city."

  • vesica tempestas.1563vesica tempestas.1563 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 9, 2019
    We need both easy and hard modes

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @phs.6089 said:
    I'm not ignoring anything. I'm just here trying to understand what is the problem with having easy raids, while game has made fractals are those model is way more successful.

    Fractals more successful than Raids? How do you figure that exactly?

    because the vast majority of gw players play fractals, a tiny shrinking minority play raids because its aimed at niche game play (min-maxing)

    "Any path that narrows future possibilities may become a lethal trap. Humans do not thread their way through a maze; they scan a vast horizon filled with unique opportunities." - The Spacing Guild Handbook.

    Beware the meta!

  • Linken.6345Linken.6345 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @zaris.5076 said:
    fractals already has easy mod (t1) and why not for raids. wow lfr system is really great sample for this. newbie players get experience with lfr raids and they can get in to normal, heroic, mythic step by step. but the important thing is the first step.

    no good loot but people can taste the raids and get some mechanic experience.

    veteran players disagree with this but they can still go for cm raids with not issue. btw this wont effect them anymore. they r against for an easy mod, coz they got already a raiding group / guild and got many experiences for raiding. they do not care with newbie players anymore.

    also easy mode is not hurts them / their raiding / their groups. but they still against for it. cant understand this actually. wow and ff14 do this and its %100 necessary. its necessary for gw2 too.

    Raiders arent against this if the easy mode raids take resources from living world teams and not the raid team that do the normal raids in the first place.
    (Have you seen how long it takes for them to do a new raid, imagen they have to balance 2 version of it + the upfront time to balance all the 6 thats already out,
    Also people wanting easy raids dont want worse rewards they want same, some add in that bosses should be killed more times for the same like you get a token and when you gathered 5, 10 or 15 you trade it in for the same reward normal get.

    If both of those could be fixed then yea easy mode wont hurt normal at all and would be welcomed by all raiders.

  • Miellyn.6847Miellyn.6847 Member ✭✭✭
    edited March 10, 2019
    Raids are fine the way they are, combining bosses of various difficulties

    @vesica tempestas.1563 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @phs.6089 said:
    I'm not ignoring anything. I'm just here trying to understand what is the problem with having easy raids, while game has made fractals are those model is way more successful.

    Fractals more successful than Raids? How do you figure that exactly?

    because the vast majority of gw players play fractals, a tiny shrinking minority play raids because its aimed at niche game play (min-maxing)

    The vast majority never set a foot in instanced content and never will.
    The difference of active fractal players vs raid players is actually not that large.

  • phs.6089phs.6089 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 10, 2019
    We need both easy and hard modes

    @Miellyn.6847 said:

    @vesica tempestas.1563 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @phs.6089 said:
    I'm not ignoring anything. I'm just here trying to understand what is the problem with having easy raids, while game has made fractals are those model is way more successful.

    Fractals more successful than Raids? How do you figure that exactly?

    because the vast majority of gw players play fractals, a tiny shrinking minority play raids because its aimed at niche game play (min-maxing)

    The vast majority never set a foot in instanced content and never will.
    The difference of active fractal players vs raid players is actually not that large.

    What are fractals if not instanced content?
    it's bloody huge check how many have 100 level in fractals and how many have about 50 LI

    "There is always a lighthouse, there's always a man, there's always a city."

  • Vinceman.4572Vinceman.4572 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 10, 2019
    Raids are fine the way they are, combining bosses of various difficulties

    @phs.6089 said:

    @Miellyn.6847 said:

    @vesica tempestas.1563 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @phs.6089 said:
    I'm not ignoring anything. I'm just here trying to understand what is the problem with having easy raids, while game has made fractals are those model is way more successful.

    Fractals more successful than Raids? How do you figure that exactly?

    because the vast majority of gw players play fractals, a tiny shrinking minority play raids because its aimed at niche game play (min-maxing)

    The vast majority never set a foot in instanced content and never will.
    The difference of active fractal players vs raid players is actually not that large.

    What are fractals if not instanced content?
    it's bloody huge check how many have 100 level in fractals and how many have about 50 LI

    And how many of these level 100s are running fractals on a daily basis? We'll never know because we have no live statistics. In my guild almost everyone had lvl 100 throughout the years but at most 2-4 were actively (not even daily) running them.
    I also doubt that fractals are so much more "successful". Played by more players? Yes, due to various reasons for example achievements you need to complete for legendary weapons (constant T1 population which is still very small) or the incredible better rewards compared to most of the other stuff in the game. Tune rewards respecitvely and population will skyrocket from one moment to the other. Also, fractals are the only 5 man instanced group content that has a challenge for players (hi bye, dungeons!) I wouldn't call that extraordinarily successful in the first place.

  • phs.6089phs.6089 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 10, 2019
    We need both easy and hard modes

    @Vinceman.4572 said:

    @phs.6089 said:

    @Miellyn.6847 said:

    @vesica tempestas.1563 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @phs.6089 said:
    I'm not ignoring anything. I'm just here trying to understand what is the problem with having easy raids, while game has made fractals are those model is way more successful.

    Fractals more successful than Raids? How do you figure that exactly?

    because the vast majority of gw players play fractals, a tiny shrinking minority play raids because its aimed at niche game play (min-maxing)

    The vast majority never set a foot in instanced content and never will.
    The difference of active fractal players vs raid players is actually not that large.

    What are fractals if not instanced content?
    it's bloody huge check how many have 100 level in fractals and how many have about 50 LI

    And how many of these level 100s are running fractals on a daily basis? We'll never know because we have no live statistics. In my guild almost everyone had lvl 100 throughout the years but at most 2-4 were actively (not even daily) running them.
    I also doubt that fractals are so much more "successful". Played by more players? Yes, due to various reasons for example achievements you need to complete for legendary weapons (constant T1 population which is still very small) or the incredible better rewards compared to most of the other stuff in the game. Tune rewards respecitvely and population will skyrocket from one moment to the other. Also, fractals are the only 5 man instanced group content that has a challenge for players (hi bye, dungeons!) I wouldn't call that extraordinarily successful in the first place.

    How many of CM runners, running it on weekly basis?
    You want to prove me that fractal players got there for legendary achievements only? good job, lol.
    If you doubt than fractals are more successful, check dem LFG. Yes not many people in t1,t2, you know why?
    They learned it and doing T4s. SOme even run CMs on daily basis but they learned general mech it in t1,t2,t3.
    While raids are rotting down with tiny flow of new players that EVEN try to get there.

    "There is always a lighthouse, there's always a man, there's always a city."

  • Astralporing.1957Astralporing.1957 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 10, 2019
    We need an easy mode, but not a hard mode

    @Miellyn.6847 said:

    @vesica tempestas.1563 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @phs.6089 said:
    I'm not ignoring anything. I'm just here trying to understand what is the problem with having easy raids, while game has made fractals are those model is way more successful.

    Fractals more successful than Raids? How do you figure that exactly?

    because the vast majority of gw players play fractals, a tiny shrinking minority play raids because its aimed at niche game play (min-maxing)

    The vast majority never set a foot in instanced content and never will.
    The difference of active fractal players vs raid players is actually not that large.

    Nowadays, yes, but that's only because constant increases to difficulty of fractals (in a way that wasn't fun at all) drove a lot of players out of it. The peak population of fractals however was much, much greater than peak population of raids.
    And that was still much lower than peak population of dungeons.
    Which is hardly surprising.

    @Vinceman.4572 said:
    And how many of these level 100s are running fractals on a daily basis? We'll never know because we have no live statistics. In my guild almost everyone had lvl 100 throughout the years but at most 2-4 were actively (not even daily) running them.

    Compare top tier of fractal frequenter then (500 fractals done, 25% on gw2eff).

    The whole point of a social game is to play with the people you want to play with, not be forced to play with the people you don't.

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭
    Raids have problems, but we need a better solution

    @vesica tempestas.1563 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @phs.6089 said:
    I'm not ignoring anything. I'm just here trying to understand what is the problem with having easy raids, while game has made fractals are those model is way more successful.

    Fractals more successful than Raids? How do you figure that exactly?

    because the vast majority of gw players play fractals, a tiny shrinking minority play raids because its aimed at niche game play (min-maxing)

    I'd like to see your proof of this. They only thing I can check is the LFG tool and that doesn't paint a good picture of fractals.

  • Miellyn.6847Miellyn.6847 Member ✭✭✭
    Raids are fine the way they are, combining bosses of various difficulties

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @Miellyn.6847 said:

    @vesica tempestas.1563 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @phs.6089 said:
    I'm not ignoring anything. I'm just here trying to understand what is the problem with having easy raids, while game has made fractals are those model is way more successful.

    Fractals more successful than Raids? How do you figure that exactly?

    because the vast majority of gw players play fractals, a tiny shrinking minority play raids because its aimed at niche game play (min-maxing)

    The vast majority never set a foot in instanced content and never will.
    The difference of active fractal players vs raid players is actually not that large.

    Nowadays, yes, but that's only because constant increases to difficulty of fractals (in a way that wasn't fun at all) drove a lot of players out of it. The peak population of fractals however was much, much greater than peak population of raids.
    And that was still much lower than peak population of dungeons.
    Which is hardly surprising.

    But still not a vast majority. The majority never cared about it. Stop trying to turn everything against raids even if it is just flat out wrong.

  • Astralporing.1957Astralporing.1957 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 10, 2019
    We need an easy mode, but not a hard mode

    @Miellyn.6847 said:

    @Astralporing.1957 said:
    Nowadays, yes, but that's only because constant increases to difficulty of fractals (in a way that wasn't fun at all) drove a lot of players out of it. The peak population of fractals however was much, much greater than peak population of raids.
    And that was still much lower than peak population of dungeons.
    Which is hardly surprising.

    But still not a vast majority. The majority never cared about it. Stop trying to turn everything against raids even if it is just flat out wrong.

    That's true, but then i wasn't talking about vast majority. What i was responding to was the claim that the difference wasn't big. It was.

    Edit: notice also, that your claim that a vast majority never set foot in any instanced content is probably false as well. The gw2eff statistics for people that have done at least 1 fractal is at above 80%.

    The whole point of a social game is to play with the people you want to play with, not be forced to play with the people you don't.

  • We need both easy and hard modes

    @Miellyn.6847 said:

    @vesica tempestas.1563 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @phs.6089 said:
    I'm not ignoring anything. I'm just here trying to understand what is the problem with having easy raids, while game has made fractals are those model is way more successful.

    Fractals more successful than Raids? How do you figure that exactly?

    because the vast majority of gw players play fractals, a tiny shrinking minority play raids because its aimed at niche game play (min-maxing)

    The vast majority never set a foot in instanced content and never will.
    The difference of active fractal players vs raid players is actually not that large.

    Keep telling yourself that if you wish, but reality is most players have played/play fractals at levels 1-100. i.e easy mode and up.

    "Any path that narrows future possibilities may become a lethal trap. Humans do not thread their way through a maze; they scan a vast horizon filled with unique opportunities." - The Spacing Guild Handbook.

    Beware the meta!

  • Tyson.5160Tyson.5160 Member ✭✭✭✭
    We need both easy and hard modes

    @gonandro.4768 said:
    Hello everyone! Just passing by for my monthly visit to this thread.
    Take a look at the game: we had 1 raid release last year.
    Easy mode is not gonna happen.
    Get better at the game.
    Have a nice day!

    What may happen is Raids might get discontinued after Wing 7 and any future elite spec might cheese the content and turn it into the next set of dungeons. So Raids fate might in theory become an easy mode anyhow, which really isn’t the outcome I wanted. 😢

  • Vinceman.4572Vinceman.4572 Member ✭✭✭✭
    Raids are fine the way they are, combining bosses of various difficulties

    @Tyson.5160 said:

    @gonandro.4768 said:
    Hello everyone! Just passing by for my monthly visit to this thread.
    Take a look at the game: we had 1 raid release last year.
    Easy mode is not gonna happen.
    Get better at the game.
    Have a nice day!

    What may happen is Raids might get discontinued after Wing 7 and any future elite spec might cheese the content and turn it into the next set of dungeons. So Raids fate might in theory become an easy mode anyhow, which really isn’t the outcome I wanted. 😢

    If that happens to raids it will automatically lead to the same result for fractals and to the death of any serious challenging content at all in GW2.

  • Tyson.5160Tyson.5160 Member ✭✭✭✭
    We need both easy and hard modes

    @Vinceman.4572 said:

    @Tyson.5160 said:

    @gonandro.4768 said:
    Hello everyone! Just passing by for my monthly visit to this thread.
    Take a look at the game: we had 1 raid release last year.
    Easy mode is not gonna happen.
    Get better at the game.
    Have a nice day!

    What may happen is Raids might get discontinued after Wing 7 and any future elite spec might cheese the content and turn it into the next set of dungeons. So Raids fate might in theory become an easy mode anyhow, which really isn’t the outcome I wanted. 😢

    If that happens to raids it will automatically lead to the same result for fractals and to the death of any serious challenging content at all in GW2.

    I know. Hence my tearful emoji.

  • Astralporing.1957Astralporing.1957 Member ✭✭✭✭
    We need an easy mode, but not a hard mode

    @Vinceman.4572 said:

    @Tyson.5160 said:

    @gonandro.4768 said:
    Hello everyone! Just passing by for my monthly visit to this thread.
    Take a look at the game: we had 1 raid release last year.
    Easy mode is not gonna happen.
    Get better at the game.
    Have a nice day!

    What may happen is Raids might get discontinued after Wing 7 and any future elite spec might cheese the content and turn it into the next set of dungeons. So Raids fate might in theory become an easy mode anyhow, which really isn’t the outcome I wanted. 😢

    If that happens to raids it will automatically lead to the same result for fractals and to the death of any serious challenging content at all in GW2.

    Probably. Notice however, that in general this kind of content isn't immensely popular here, and the changes to fractals that keep increasing difficulty over and over again did a lot to depopulate the content. I'd say that keeping fractals at current difficulty level simply isn't sustainable in the long run anyway.

    The whole point of a social game is to play with the people you want to play with, not be forced to play with the people you don't.

  • Tsan.6431Tsan.6431 Member ✭✭
    We need both easy and hard modes

    @Vinceman.4572 said:
    If that happens to raids it will automatically lead to the same result for fractals and to the death of any serious challenging content at all in GW2.

    Fractals ? That's why is more difficult to find a fractal T3 or low level T4 them a T4 HL ???

  • Vinceman.4572Vinceman.4572 Member ✭✭✭✭
    Raids are fine the way they are, combining bosses of various difficulties

    @Astralporing.1957 said:
    Probably. Notice however, that in general this kind of content isn't immensely popular here, and the changes to fractals that keep increasing difficulty over and over again did a lot to depopulate the content. I'd say that keeping fractals at current difficulty level simply isn't sustainable in the long run anyway.

    I agree, the voices here and on reddit are very loud in that the recent changes to instabilities were a massive disappointment and therefore led to a noticeable decrease in population.

    @Tsan.6431 said:

    @Vinceman.4572 said:
    If that happens to raids it will automatically lead to the same result for fractals and to the death of any serious challenging content at all in GW2.

    Fractals ? That's why is more difficult to find a fractal T3 or low level T4 them a T4 HL ???

    It's more difficult to find people for T3 due to them being harder to play with inexperienced players you find there at the moment. People who can head for T4 will do that obviously because it guarantees much more rewards and you meet (or in the past "met") players knowing what and how to do it.
    But I still don't see your point. You can't seriously have the opinion that easing raids down will lead to a remarkable influx of players for fractals (I hope you see the dependence & connection on fractal difficulty via balancing). The crowd aiming for challenging content won't come back if things get easier, that's a fact. The majority left because there is not enough content to satisfy their wishes. Another part due to the latest changes.
    The rest of the player base hasn't even played lower tier fractals (not to speak of regularly). they also won't join this part just because power creep. They are not interested in instanced content. There's one thing you can do: tune rewards even higher and your Silverwaste crowd will farm ez T4 fracs.

  • Tsan.6431Tsan.6431 Member ✭✭
    edited March 12, 2019
    We need both easy and hard modes

    Easier acces to raid via a learning curve should bring player to normal level raid : like fractal T1-2-3 lead to T4.

    "The majority left because there is not enough content to satisfy their wishes." Something like a easy mod for raid ? (or template, lol)

  • Vinceman.4572Vinceman.4572 Member ✭✭✭✭
    Raids are fine the way they are, combining bosses of various difficulties

    @Tsan.6431 said:
    Easier acces to raid via a learning curve should bring player to normal level raid : like fractal T1-2-3 lead to T4.

    "The majority left because there is not enough content to satisfy their wishes." Something like a easy mod for raid ? (or template, lol)

    With the cited sentence from you I meant players that want an actual challenge and more of such content, like W7, 8 & 9 + additional cms for fracs. Anet's release cycle is too long to keep them in the game.

    You are assuming that there is a huge/tremendous amount of players that want to have an easy mode for raids. That is by no means the case. There are some, yes, but most of them are not interested in establish longterm commitment. Not even for an easy mode. They would try out/play them once like an LS episode and that's it.

  • Tyson.5160Tyson.5160 Member ✭✭✭✭
    We need both easy and hard modes

    @Vinceman.4572 said:

    @Tsan.6431 said:
    Easier acces to raid via a learning curve should bring player to normal level raid : like fractal T1-2-3 lead to T4.

    "The majority left because there is not enough content to satisfy their wishes." Something like a easy mod for raid ? (or template, lol)

    With the cited sentence from you I meant players that want an actual challenge and more of such content, like W7, 8 & 9 + additional cms for fracs. Anet's release cycle is too long to keep them in the game.

    I think is because people are used to WoW way of doing their story. A little bit of story and then a raid with their releases. GW2 is not a raid centric game, it wasn’t part of the original design. If we were to compare it to WoW each release of LW would also contain a raid, which is actually key part of the plot, much the battle with Kralkatorrik, that instance for example would be a raid, while the collecting parts of the LW, collecting oil and salvaging the tanks would be one of the smaller quests.

  • Astralporing.1957Astralporing.1957 Member ✭✭✭✭
    We need an easy mode, but not a hard mode

    @Vinceman.4572 said:

    @Tsan.6431 said:
    Easier acces to raid via a learning curve should bring player to normal level raid : like fractal T1-2-3 lead to T4.

    "The majority left because there is not enough content to satisfy their wishes." Something like a easy mod for raid ? (or template, lol)

    With the cited sentence from you I meant players that want an actual challenge and more of such content, like W7, 8 & 9 + additional cms for fracs. Anet's release cycle is too long to keep them in the game.

    Yes. That was known even before Anet released first raid wing. A lot of us have been saying then that there's no way Anet can satisfy that group of players without completely changing the course and going full hardcore (and possibly not even then). Turns out, we were right.

    You are assuming that there is a huge/tremendous amount of players that want to have an easy mode for raids. That is by no means the case.

    Of course not. But then, there's no tremendous amount of players that wanted raids in the first place. And if we compare those numbers, you might find that the group of players preferring raids to be easier might not be smaller than those that want them hard.

    The whole point of a social game is to play with the people you want to play with, not be forced to play with the people you don't.

  • Vinceman.4572Vinceman.4572 Member ✭✭✭✭
    Raids are fine the way they are, combining bosses of various difficulties

    @Astralporing.1957 said:
    Yes. That was known even before Anet released first raid wing. A lot of us have been saying then that there's no way Anet can satisfy that group of players without completely changing the course and going full hardcore (and possibly not even then). Turns out, we were right.

    Nah, they could have done it without being a raid centric game. The layoffs are a proof to that. Instead of letting people work on projects with unknown outcome they should have focused on GW2 as a whole - in every sector, not only raids & fracs.
    We had announcement after announcement that they "could" ("6 wings per year") and "would" ("merge groups for better focus", "installing a 2nd team for instanced content") bring more stuff. It was all on the table and communicated (although still badly and like always without a roadmap). It couldn't be more obvious that players are leaving if you lie to them like this over months/years.

    Of course not. But then, there's no tremendous amount of players that wanted raids in the first place. And if we compare those numbers, you might find that the group of players preferring raids to be easier might not be smaller than those that want them hard.

    Raids were marked as "successful". They must have lied here as well if you are right or you are not. Choose one.

  • Astralporing.1957Astralporing.1957 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 13, 2019
    We need an easy mode, but not a hard mode

    @Vinceman.4572 said:

    @Astralporing.1957 said:
    Yes. That was known even before Anet released first raid wing. A lot of us have been saying then that there's no way Anet can satisfy that group of players without completely changing the course and going full hardcore (and possibly not even then). Turns out, we were right.

    Nah, they could have done it without being a raid centric game. The layoffs are a proof to that. Instead of letting people work on projects with unknown outcome they should have focused on GW2 as a whole - in every sector, not only raids & fracs.

    That was only a more recent trend. Moving resources en masse to side projects probably didn't happen before PoF (and wing 5) launched. And yet the raid release cadence was never good (the first 3 wings do not really count, as we don't really know how long they did take, because part of their work was done as part of expac).

    We had announcement after announcement that they "could" ("6 wings per year") and "would" ("merge groups for better focus", "installing a 2nd team for instanced content") bring more stuff. It was all on the table and communicated (although still badly and like always without a roadmap). It couldn't be more obvious that players are leaving if you lie to them like this over months/years.

    6 wings per year... They probably could. If (and only if) they went raid-heavy (they'd probably need like 4-5 raid teams for that, working in parallel). Most probably though they've realized almost instantly (even if they claimed success) that raider population simply didn't warrant so much resource investment.
    And they did merge groups (fractal and raid). It was stilll the same number of people working on the same number of projects.

    Of course not. But then, there's no tremendous amount of players that wanted raids in the first place. And if we compare those numbers, you might find that the group of players preferring raids to be easier might not be smaller than those that want them hard.

    Raids were marked as "successful". They must have lied here as well if you are right or you are not. Choose one.

    "succesful" is such a relative word. I'm sure they were initially succesful for a hardcore content in a mostly casual game. That doesn't mean they were succesful enough to warrant more resources dedicated to them... or that this success lasted long (remember, that they claimed that success right after the content drought that affected all parts of the game except raids, during time where they were a New Thing, and during time where raids still had accelerated schedule due to first 3 wings being partially done beforehand)

    The whole point of a social game is to play with the people you want to play with, not be forced to play with the people you don't.

  • Tyson.5160Tyson.5160 Member ✭✭✭✭
    We need both easy and hard modes

    Unfortunately we don’t know what the future holds for Raids right now. I suspect we will get a Wing 7 to finish off the Legendary ring, but beyond that? It’s hard to say. Could they drop Raids and just focus on Fractals? Maybe? They definitely have Fractal spaces available.

  • Lonami.2987Lonami.2987 Member ✭✭✭
    We need both easy and hard modes

    Results so far:

    • We need both easy and hard modes - 575 - 52%
    • We need an easy mode, but not a hard mode - 89 - 8%
    • We need a hard mode, but not an easy mode - 87 - 7%
    • Raids are fine the way they are, combining bosses of various difficulties - 264 - 24%
    • Raids have problems, but we need a better solution - 80 - 7%

    From the data above:

    • 60% of the people want an easy mode.
    • 59% of the people want a hard mode.
    • 67% of the people want difficulty modes.
    • 31% of the people doesn't want difficulty modes.

    @Astralporing.1957 said:
    "succesful" is such a relative word. I'm sure they were initially succesful for a hardcore content in a mostly casual game. That doesn't mean they were succesful enough to warrant more resources dedicated to them... or that this success lasted long (remember, that they claimed that success right after the content drought that affected all parts of the game except raids, during time where they were a New Thing, and during time where raids still had accelerated schedule due to first 3 wings being partially done beforehand)

    Exactly. You can't spend resources on a minority while the majority has nothing to do. Raids were bound to fail with no difficulty modes, as time is proving.

    @Tyson.5160 said:
    Unfortunately we don’t know what the future holds for Raids right now. I suspect we will get a Wing 7 to finish off the Legendary ring, but beyond that? It’s hard to say. Could they drop Raids and just focus on Fractals? Maybe? They definitely have Fractal spaces available.

    I wouldn't be surprised if wing 7 is the last raid.

  • TexZero.7910TexZero.7910 Member ✭✭✭✭
    Raids are fine the way they are, combining bosses of various difficulties

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @tim.4596 said:
    Is that post legit still running !!! This is insane.

    Why? It's not like anything changed since the topic started, so people that disliked the situation then aren't more likely to like it now. If they still play, of course.
    Hint: leaving problems unresolved for a time doesn't make them any less of a problem later.

    Or maybe it's not a problem.
    Status Quo has been maintained since HoT, if the deafining silence on the matter isn't enough proof for you then i don't know what to tell you that will restore your faith in the belief that there is a problem.

  • yann.1946yann.1946 Member ✭✭✭
    Raids have problems, but we need a better solution

    @Astralporing.1957 said:
    "succesful" is such a relative word. I'm sure they were initially succesful for a hardcore content in a mostly casual game. That doesn't mean they were succesful enough to warrant more resources dedicated to them... or that this success lasted long (remember, that they claimed that success right after the content drought that affected all parts of the game except raids, during time where they were a New Thing, and during time where raids still had accelerated schedule due to first 3 wings being partially done beforehand)

    Exactly. You can't spend resources on a minority while the majority has nothing to do. Raids were bound to fail with no difficulty modes, as time is proving.

    Your logic is flawed here has people have lots to do now. Or are you claiming that people leaving the game in hot because they didn't have enough to do would cause raids to fail in pof?

  • Astralporing.1957Astralporing.1957 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited June 1, 2019
    We need an easy mode, but not a hard mode

    @TexZero.7910 said:

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @tim.4596 said:
    Is that post legit still running !!! This is insane.

    Why? It's not like anything changed since the topic started, so people that disliked the situation then aren't more likely to like it now. If they still play, of course.
    Hint: leaving problems unresolved for a time doesn't make them any less of a problem later.

    Or maybe it's not a problem.

    For you, probably not. For others...

    Status Quo has been maintained since HoT, if the deafining silence on the matter isn't enough proof for you then i don't know what to tell you that will restore your faith in the belief that there is a problem.

    If less and less resources dedicated to raids is the status quo you want...
    And i don't need you to restore my "faith" in it being a problem. I am still as sure as before that it is, and do not base it on faith, but on observation.

    The whole point of a social game is to play with the people you want to play with, not be forced to play with the people you don't.

  • Linken.6345Linken.6345 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @TexZero.7910 said:

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @tim.4596 said:
    Is that post legit still running !!! This is insane.

    Why? It's not like anything changed since the topic started, so people that disliked the situation then aren't more likely to like it now. If they still play, of course.
    Hint: leaving problems unresolved for a time doesn't make them any less of a problem later.

    Or maybe it's not a problem.

    For you, probably not. For others...

    Status Quo has been maintained since HoT, if the deafining silence on the matter isn't enough proof for you then i don't know what to tell you that will restore your faith in the belief that there is a problem.

    If less and less resources dedicated to raids is the status quo you want...
    And i don't need you to restore my "faith" in it being a problem. I am still as sure as before that it is, and do not base it on faith, but on observation.

    Have been consisten in its release since after the 3 raid wings that were finished during hot production I'd say, were do you get that its less and less?
    True raiders want em faster then what the pace is but thats not saying it slowed down.

  • TexZero.7910TexZero.7910 Member ✭✭✭✭
    Raids are fine the way they are, combining bosses of various difficulties

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @TexZero.7910 said:

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @tim.4596 said:
    Is that post legit still running !!! This is insane.

    Why? It's not like anything changed since the topic started, so people that disliked the situation then aren't more likely to like it now. If they still play, of course.
    Hint: leaving problems unresolved for a time doesn't make them any less of a problem later.

    Or maybe it's not a problem.

    For you, probably not. For others...

    Status Quo has been maintained since HoT, if the deafining silence on the matter isn't enough proof for you then i don't know what to tell you that will restore your faith in the belief that there is a problem.

    If less and less resources dedicated to raids is the status quo you want...
    And i don't need you to restore my "faith" in it being a problem. I am still as sure as before that it is, and do not base it on faith, but on observation.

    Or it's not a problem as seen by the company at large and the people who protest to loudly might just be a very fringe minority. That seems much more logical than it's "not a problem" for me.

    So by your own admission they've spent less resources on a mode and you think somehow they're gonna find time to address this supposed problem ?
    Doesn't that itself indicate that they don't see a need to cater to this percieved slight ? Raids are still being made and by less than the initial team.... If they didn't make an easy mode before what makes you think they'll do it now with a smaller team whose focus is arguably more concise.

  • Astralporing.1957Astralporing.1957 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited June 1, 2019
    We need an easy mode, but not a hard mode

    @TexZero.7910 said:

    So by your own admission they've spent less resources on a mode and you think somehow they're gonna find time to address this supposed problem ?

    No, i don't. The time for that is long past. Raids are no longer important enough to warrant adding a second mode. It's far more likely that at some point they will simply tweak the difficulty down. Or just stop dedicating any resources to them altogether.

    The whole point of a social game is to play with the people you want to play with, not be forced to play with the people you don't.

  • TexZero.7910TexZero.7910 Member ✭✭✭✭
    Raids are fine the way they are, combining bosses of various difficulties

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @TexZero.7910 said:

    So by your own admission they've spent less resources on a mode and you think somehow they're gonna find time to address this supposed problem ?

    No, i don't. The time for that is long past. Raids are no longer important enough to warrant adding a second mode. It's far more likely that at some point they will simply tweak the difficulty down. Or just stop dedicating any resources to them altogether.

    You keep doing you then.

    It's not like there's precedent from ANet now from their previous title and this one stating that they aren't going to change their endgame content's difficulty no matter how much people complain or anything.

  • Lady Celtaine.3760Lady Celtaine.3760 Member ✭✭
    edited June 2, 2019
    We need both easy and hard modes

    Answered yes to easy and hard mode because you know what yeah it would make raids more accessible, new raiders could train on easy mode for less loot to try it out before committing wads of gold and mats to crafting asc gear for meta. It's one of the things that puts me off raids too. Just not willing to sink that much time and effort into just getting in a group that wants ppl with full meta only to risk finding out it might be the most dull thing in game.

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