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Do raids need easy/normal/hard difficulty mode? [merged]

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  • Astralporing.1957Astralporing.1957 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited June 3, 2019
    We need an easy mode, but not a hard mode

    @TexZero.7910 said:

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @TexZero.7910 said:

    So by your own admission they've spent less resources on a mode and you think somehow they're gonna find time to address this supposed problem ?

    No, i don't. The time for that is long past. Raids are no longer important enough to warrant adding a second mode. It's far more likely that at some point they will simply tweak the difficulty down. Or just stop dedicating any resources to them altogether.

    You keep doing you then.

    It's not like there's precedent from ANet now from their previous title and this one stating that they aren't going to change their endgame content's difficulty no matter how much people complain or anything.

    Yes, it is possible they will do exactly that, and not bother to adjust it before they'll stop paying attention to it. I f you haven't noticed, i did mention that possibility. They'd probably need to at the very least make an alternate PvE legendary armor option before they'll do that, though.

    The whole point of a social game is to play with the people you want to play with, not be forced to play with the people you don't.

  • Miellyn.6847Miellyn.6847 Member ✭✭✭
    Raids are fine the way they are, combining bosses of various difficulties

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @TexZero.7910 said:

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @TexZero.7910 said:

    So by your own admission they've spent less resources on a mode and you think somehow they're gonna find time to address this supposed problem ?

    No, i don't. The time for that is long past. Raids are no longer important enough to warrant adding a second mode. It's far more likely that at some point they will simply tweak the difficulty down. Or just stop dedicating any resources to them altogether.

    You keep doing you then.

    It's not like there's precedent from ANet now from their previous title and this one stating that they aren't going to change their endgame content's difficulty no matter how much people complain or anything.

    Yes, it is possible they will do exactly that, and not bother to adjust it before they'll stop paying attention to it. I f you haven't noticed, i did mention that possibility. They'd probably need to at the very least make an alternate PvE legendary armor option before they'll do that, though.

    It looks like they actually change raid releases with the next one. We get an open world area that could be used as an introduction for the boss mechanics. Which should be enough as an easy mode. I have no idea what it actually looks like though so that is pure speculation on my side.

  • Ultramex.1506Ultramex.1506 Member ✭✭✭
    edited June 3, 2019
    We need both easy and hard modes

    About the "easy mode might ruin raid"
    There is a big difference between "Adding option for players" and "Dumping down" Fallout 4 is what happen when you dump down RPG aspect so everyone can just jump into, the result is a game with laughable dialogue, a terrible character build(removing skills was really really really really stupid for an RPG), the morality is sooo black and white that it is an insult to older fallout game.
    Adding Easy mode wouldn't take away the Hard part in raid, the Hard mode is still there for you to enjoy. Now the most common rebuke is "They can't learn the hardship if they play Easy" Maybe they won't know how hard it's but at least they are prepared and know what to do. To me this is a Catch 22, the difficulty, fear of not knowing and, dare i say, the players scare away new comer so they can't learn anything but at least with Easy mode, they know the boss mechanic and maybe even the class build for that boss and they'll put on their big boy pants when confident enough.
    So yeah just how i think about this argument
    Or better yet why don't Anet add the Special Forces Training Area the option to fight a specific boss? I don't think adding golem with high health with modifier deserve a cool name like that!

  • EmmetOtter.8542EmmetOtter.8542 Member ✭✭✭
    We need both easy and hard modes

    While I think raids need both easy and hard mode there's a lot of complexity in implementing that. Hard should have better rewards and not just be harder because of more health and damage output. It's a challenge to come up with new abilities for just 1 mode

  • Vinceman.4572Vinceman.4572 Member ✭✭✭✭
    Raids are fine the way they are, combining bosses of various difficulties

    @Ultramex.1506 said:
    About the "easy mode might ruin raid"
    There is a big difference between "Adding option for players" and "Dumping down" Fallout 4 is what happen when you dump down RPG aspect so everyone can just jump into, the result is a game with laughable dialogue, a terrible character build(removing skills was really really really really stupid for an RPG), the morality is sooo black and white that it is an insult to older fallout game.
    Adding Easy mode wouldn't take away the Hard part in raid, the Hard mode is still there for you to enjoy. Now the most common rebuke is "They can't learn the hardship if they play Easy" Maybe they won't know how hard it's but at least they are prepared and know what to do. To me this is a Catch 22, the difficulty, fear of not knowing and, dare i say, the players scare away new comer so they can't learn anything but at least with Easy mode, they know the boss mechanic and maybe even the class build for that boss and they'll put on their big boy pants when confident enough.
    So yeah just how i think about this argument
    Or better yet why don't Anet add the Special Forces Training Area the option to fight a specific boss? I don't think adding golem with high health with modifier deserve a cool name like that!

    We all are way beyond that. Almost all of us (veteran raiders) aren't skeptical about bringing in an easy mode. On the contrary a lot couldn't care less. The problem that arises with making a concession is that there are lots of easy mode claimers not wanting the content but rather the rewards.
    They acted like: Give us easy mode raids.
    Answer: Hmm, no.
    They: Come on nothing speaks against it.
    Answer: Ok, you can have it but no access to the rewards.
    They: Why play easy mode if we can't get the rewards.
    --> So it's clear a lot of them only want the rewards but not the content.

    R.I.P. Build Templates, 15.10.2019

  • Graymalkyn.8076Graymalkyn.8076 Member ✭✭✭
    edited June 3, 2019
    We need both easy and hard modes

    nvm - didn't realize this thread was that old.

    We are what we write; our language defines us.

  • TexZero.7910TexZero.7910 Member ✭✭✭✭
    Raids are fine the way they are, combining bosses of various difficulties

    @Astralporing.1957 said:
    Yes, it is possible they will do exactly that, and not bother to adjust it before they'll stop paying attention to it. I f you haven't noticed, i did mention that possibility. They'd probably need to at the very least make an alternate PvE legendary armor option before they'll do that, though.

    Actually they don't have to do anything of the sort.

    It's your desire that they cater to your need for non-raid PvE legendary armor. That has nothing to do with their support of raids or an easy mode.
    But we've beaten that horse to death countless times it always comes back to wanting the reward without doing the content.

  • Ultramex.1506Ultramex.1506 Member ✭✭✭
    edited June 4, 2019
    We need both easy and hard modes

    @Vinceman.4572 said:

    @Ultramex.1506 said:
    About the "easy mode might ruin raid"
    There is a big difference between "Adding option for players" and "Dumping down" Fallout 4 is what happen when you dump down RPG aspect so everyone can just jump into, the result is a game with laughable dialogue, a terrible character build(removing skills was really really really really stupid for an RPG), the morality is sooo black and white that it is an insult to older fallout game.
    Adding Easy mode wouldn't take away the Hard part in raid, the Hard mode is still there for you to enjoy. Now the most common rebuke is "They can't learn the hardship if they play Easy" Maybe they won't know how hard it's but at least they are prepared and know what to do. To me this is a Catch 22, the difficulty, fear of not knowing and, dare i say, the players scare away new comer so they can't learn anything but at least with Easy mode, they know the boss mechanic and maybe even the class build for that boss and they'll put on their big boy pants when confident enough.
    So yeah just how i think about this argument
    Or better yet why don't Anet add the Special Forces Training Area the option to fight a specific boss? I don't think adding golem with high health with modifier deserve a cool name like that!

    We all are way beyond that. Almost all of us (veteran raiders) aren't skeptical about bringing in an easy mode. On the contrary a lot couldn't care less. The problem that arises with making a concession is that there are lots of easy mode claimers not wanting the content but rather the rewards.
    They acted like: Give us easy mode raids.
    Answer: Hmm, no.
    They: Come on nothing speaks against it.
    Answer: Ok, you can have it but no access to the rewards.
    They: Why play easy mode if we can't get the rewards.
    --> So it's clear a lot of them only want the rewards but not the content.

    Then they should accept that you will get less(not "no reward" though that would be unreasonable) if you play easy mode, not every player want easy mode for easy reward but for story and first experience, complaining about easy mode rewards is like complaining T1 fractal rewards are less than T4 which was, you know, designed for beginner. If Anet ever bring in easy mode, no doubt the forum will be filled with complaints about the reward but will be,like most tread, ignored or rebuked and other type of player will still do raid easy mode.

  • Astralporing.1957Astralporing.1957 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited June 4, 2019
    We need an easy mode, but not a hard mode

    @TexZero.7910 said:

    @Astralporing.1957 said:
    Yes, it is possible they will do exactly that, and not bother to adjust it before they'll stop paying attention to it. I f you haven't noticed, i did mention that possibility. They'd probably need to at the very least make an alternate PvE legendary armor option before they'll do that, though.

    Actually they don't have to do anything of the sort.

    "Have to" and "need to" are not exactly the same. Sure, they won't have to - it's not like anyone's going to force them to do it. Still, leaving the only avenue for a PvE legendary armor set in an abandoned content would, in my book, not be a good idea.

    It's your desire that they cater to your need for non-raid PvE legendary armor. That has nothing to do with their support of raids or an easy mode.
    But we've beaten that horse to death countless times it always comes back to wanting the reward without doing the content.

    Suure. Considering that i already have my raid legendary armor, that's exactly what it is about. [/sarcasm]

    @Ultramex.1506 said:

    @Vinceman.4572 said:
    We all are way beyond that. Almost all of us (veteran raiders) aren't skeptical about bringing in an easy mode. On the contrary a lot couldn't care less. The problem that arises with making a concession is that there are lots of easy mode claimers not wanting the content but rather the rewards.
    They acted like: Give us easy mode raids.
    Answer: Hmm, no.
    They: Come on nothing speaks against it.
    Answer: Ok, you can have it but no access to the rewards.
    They: Why play easy mode if we can't get the rewards.
    --> So it's clear a lot of them only want the rewards but not the content.

    Then they should accept that you will get less(not "no reward" though that would be unreasonable) if you play easy mode, not every player want easy mode for easy reward but for story and first experience, complaining about easy mode rewards is like complaining T1 fractal rewards are less than T4 which was, you know, designed for beginner. If Anet ever bring in easy mode, no doubt the forum will be filled with complaints about the reward but will be,like most tread, ignored or rebuked and other type of player will still do raid easy mode.

    Like a mode with no rewards is going to survive. Seriously, remove rewards from current raids, and they will be completely dead in a month (and even that is being generous). And that even with most of the vocal raiders claiming they aren't interested in rewards and are in it for challenge. It's hardly any different for easy mode (or for any other content).

    Those making this kind of "concessions" about easy mode are perfectly aware of that.

    The whole point of a social game is to play with the people you want to play with, not be forced to play with the people you don't.

  • You just said that raiding isn't profitable for Anet, and then you suggest them to put more time and effort to recreated 2 other difficulties for them?
    Also, i'm pretty sure expecting players to divide more between contents wouldn't help the rest of the game either.

  • Xar.6279Xar.6279 Member ✭✭✭
    edited June 4, 2019

    First of all, raid wings (with 3/4 bosses) should be released once per 3/4 months. As it worked in ~2016. Not slower. Then we can even talk about easy, normal or hard modes.
    Right now its just not worth for alot of pure raiding guilds and teams (so alot of them quit raiding) to raid in gw2 if t means for them to login once per year to clean everything in one week. And then wait another year for something new. Its too casual to form raiding guilds. Also with that "speed" of releasing new content you can do everything with pugs w/o any problem.

    Or maybe new wings once per year as it works right now, but with alot more bosses. Like 12. And release 3 bosses per 3 months. So you keep interest for the whole year. And problem is solved.

    Edit:

    Also people complain that raiding community is so small. So its not worth to develop it more etc, etc.
    But it just can't grow if new raids are released so slow. Its simple.
    Ofc raiding community always will be smaller than open world community. Its nothing revealing.
    And it dont mean open world content brings more money. Its a lie.

    Money these days are in live-streams for example. And what gets most popularity? Hardcore content.
    So maybe its about very few hardcore players, but not completelythey, cause they bring thousands of viewers / players. And money. For the game.
    Also any gaming media likes to write and talk about hardcore content. So game is getting more and more popular because of that.
    While right now if media talks about gw2 its just about layoffs or some boring stuff. And casual content isnt interesting for them.

    Hardcore content is made for a smaller audience. But it brings big audience.

  • Ultramex.1506Ultramex.1506 Member ✭✭✭
    We need both easy and hard modes

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    Then they should accept that you will get less(not "no reward" though that would be unreasonable) if you play easy mode, not every player want easy mode for easy reward but for story and first experience, complaining about easy mode rewards is like complaining T1 fractal rewards are less than T4 which was, you know, designed for beginner. If Anet ever bring in easy mode, no doubt the forum will be filled with complaints about the reward but will be,like most tread, ignored or rebuked and other type of player will still do raid easy mode.

    Like a mode with no rewards is going to survive. Seriously, remove rewards from current raids, and they will be completely dead in a month (and even that is being generous). And that even with most of the vocal raiders claiming they aren't interested in rewards and are in it for challenge. It's hardly any different for easy mode (or for any other content).

    Those making this kind of "concessions" about easy mode are perfectly aware of that.

    I didn't said Easy raid should have no rewards, i said it should have less rewards. And there is a different in Easy, people can learn how bosses mechanic work and be prepared for the pressure and the difficulty that is hard mode which is the true experience for raid, with first hand experience + the best rewards in hard mode will motivate player to move out of easy mode.

  • Vinceman.4572Vinceman.4572 Member ✭✭✭✭
    Raids are fine the way they are, combining bosses of various difficulties

    @Astralporing.1957 said:
    Like a mode with no rewards is going to survive. Seriously, remove rewards from current raids, and they will be completely dead in a month (and even that is being generous). And that even with most of the vocal raiders claiming they aren't interested in rewards and are in it for challenge. It's hardly any different for easy mode (or for any other content).

    Those making this kind of "concessions" about easy mode are perfectly aware of that.

    Nobody said anything about removing rewards completely from a possible easy mode. But handing out the same or not significantly decreased rewards will harm the actual mode.
    So, people wanting an easy mode so badly should have it as I said I personally don't care but they should be ok with getting silver + rares, greens, blues and maybe a little amount of tokens. That's all what's needed if they are heavily interested in story, landscape and a slight overview over what a raid looks like. There's no point in forcing people into an easy mode with special or uncommon incentives. An easy mode should give a first impression and as well work as a training mode. You're getting a little bit of extra? Fine for me but please don't exaggerate otherwise we need to hand out expensive shiny infusions for T1 fractals and guaranteed drops per world boss kill to have a fair balance.

    R.I.P. Build Templates, 15.10.2019

  • Astralporing.1957Astralporing.1957 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited June 4, 2019
    We need an easy mode, but not a hard mode

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Astralporing.1957 said:
    Seriously, remove rewards from current raids, and they will be completely dead in a month (and even that is being generous)

    I need to remind you of the dungeon speed running community back in the day and the Fractal 50+ community also back in the day, when getting above 50 was really hard. At a certain point, both were pretty much useless activities reward-wise, as they offered nothing unique.

    Dungeon speed running was always profitable. About fractals, you are right, the 50+ community didn't have a lot of reward-based motivation. On the other hand, that community was too small to keep this mode afloat. It was the people running the lower fractal tiers, that kept Fractals alive then. If you nerfed then fractal rewards to the point of the level that is commonly proposed for easy mode (so, "two blues and a green" or even "no rewards whatsoever"), that mode would have died long ago.

    High level fractals had no extra rewards

    No extra unique rewards, but they did have an additional box per tier. And they did have rewards, which weren't that small (even if inferior to dungeons) even then. The "no rewards" proposals for easy mode that were sometimes made were not about no exclusive rewards. It was either "no rewards that might interest anyone", or "no rewards at all".
    "lolnope" was the only reasonable answer for those kinds of suggestions.

    High level fractals had no extra rewards, while afking in PVP earned dungeon rewards faster than trying to solo them. Yet they both had active communities running them and weren't considered dead.

    Neither soloing community for dungeons, nor the 50+ fractal crowd was ever numerous enough to make the mode not dead.

    Raids wouldn't die if rewards were removed from them, there is more than enough evidence to support that.

    On the contrary, there's enough evidence that removing rewards would crash the raid population well below sustainability levels.

    Not that I support something as nonsensical as removing rewards from any type of content

    Yes, a content mode with no rewards is nonsensical. I can fully agree with that.

    @Vinceman.4572 said:
    Nobody said anything about removing rewards completely from a possible easy mode.

    Actually, there were a lot of those suggestions.

    The whole point of a social game is to play with the people you want to play with, not be forced to play with the people you don't.

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited June 4, 2019
    Raids have problems, but we need a better solution

    @Astralporing.1957 said:
    Dungeon speed running was always profitable.

    Not really compared to farming.

    About fractals, you are right, the 50+ community didn't have a lot of reward-based motivation. On the other hand, that community was too small to keep this mode afloat.

    This is wrong. There was barely anyone running Fractals outside the high tiers before they added the precursor collections. That's when Fractals exploded, until then it was dead content (like dungeons) being run by a focused community running them for the fun of it and not for the rewards.

    No extra unique rewards, but they did have an additional box per tier.

    There were no tiers.

    Neither soloing community for dungeons, nor the 50+ fractal crowd was ever numerous enough to make the mode not dead.

    Actually they were, it was how those modes were kept "alive", even on life support.

    On the contrary, there's enough evidence that removing rewards would crash the raid population well below sustainability levels.

    Where is that evidence? We both know that the dungeon runners and 50+ fractal runners kept those modes active and alive because nobody else was running them.

    IF you want to see content that crashes based on rewards look at the open world instead. The "hardcore" players can keep content active even without rewards (or limited ones), the casuals run away from content with little rewards. They've done it numerous times, at the first sign of a nerf they turn tail and abandon the content, the casuals are those that are playing a game solely for the shinnies and the rewards and not because they are having fun in the content they play.

  • runeblade.7514runeblade.7514 Member ✭✭✭
    edited June 4, 2019
    We need both easy and hard modes

    I am so excited to not play the new raid because of lack of accessible difficulty. =)

    6x warrior/5xRanger/6x Revenant/6x Mesmer/5x Guardian/6x Thief/5x Engineer/5x Necromancer/5x Elementalist

  • Vinceman.4572Vinceman.4572 Member ✭✭✭✭
    Raids are fine the way they are, combining bosses of various difficulties

    @Astralporing.1957 said:
    Actually, there were a lot of those suggestions.

    That was 1.5 years ago when the thread was started. Nowadays I'm not seeing those people insisting on it. Even Teapot suggested an easy mode raid and you'll only find a few elitists claiming it and those have no arguments at all meaning their voices are irrelevant.

    R.I.P. Build Templates, 15.10.2019

  • Lorin.9564Lorin.9564 Member ✭✭
    We need both easy and hard modes

    An easier mode for raids would give working players and families, who can't invest that much time in the game, the chance to get access to the legendary armour. I hope Anet will give them a real chance to get the armour they like.

    Head of Lead - ZdF Zirkel der Finsternis - PVX Gilde

  • Astralporing.1957Astralporing.1957 Member ✭✭✭✭
    We need an easy mode, but not a hard mode

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Astralporing.1957 said:
    Dungeon speed running was always profitable.

    Not really compared to farming.

    It may not have been the best option, but up until the pre-HoT nerf it was always among the good ones.

    About fractals, you are right, the 50+ community didn't have a lot of reward-based motivation. On the other hand, that community was too small to keep this mode afloat.

    This is wrong. There was barely anyone running Fractals outside the high tiers before they added the precursor collections. That's when Fractals exploded, until then it was dead content (like dungeons) being run by a focused community running them for the fun of it and not for the rewards.

    It may seem like that to you because you were part of that community. Yes, Fractals were not as popular as dungeons (or even as they are now), but there was still a lot more players running it than those belonging to that "focused community" of yours.

    Same with dungeons - there were always more casual runs/farmers than "achievement" type lowmans/speedruns

    No extra unique rewards, but they did have an additional box per tier.

    There were no tiers.

    I'm pretty sure you could get more rewards by running fractals at higher and higher fractal levels. Although i may be misremembering it somehow, or mixing it up with the later system.

    Neither soloing community for dungeons, nor the 50+ fractal crowd was ever numerous enough to make the mode not dead.

    Actually they were, it was how those modes were kept "alive", even on life support.

    Dungeons were kept "alive" due to farmers and casual runners. Fractals barely survived due to more casual players as well (there weren't really any farmers for them then).

    On the contrary, there's enough evidence that removing rewards would crash the raid population well below sustainability levels.

    Where is that evidence? We both know that the dungeon runners and 50+ fractal runners kept those modes active and alive because nobody else was running them.

    The dungeon runners you speak of were the farmers and casuals (With casual players being a really significant part of all dungeon runners). Not the people that were doing them for better and better times or weird challenges. Same with fractals - there were always more players at lower tiers than the higher ones.

    You might have ignored them, because you weren't running with them, but they were there. And it is them that kept those modes alive.

    The whole point of a social game is to play with the people you want to play with, not be forced to play with the people you don't.

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭
    Raids have problems, but we need a better solution

    @Astralporing.1957 said:
    It may not have been the best option, but up until the pre-HoT nerf it was always among the good ones.

    Silverwastes/Dry Top say hi. There were always far better options

    It may seem like that to you because you were part of that community. Yes, Fractals were not as popular as dungeons (or even as they are now), but there was still a lot more players running it than those belonging to that "focused community" of yours.

    And now I'd like you to post some evidence to prove that since you started this discussion in the first place.

    I'm pretty sure you could get more rewards by running fractals at higher and higher fractal levels. Although i may be misremembering it somehow, or mixing it up with the later system.

    There was no better/more reward for running higher tiers. And compared to the effort required to reach high enough levels it was never worth it.

    Dungeons were kept "alive" due to farmers and casual runners. Fractals barely survived due to more casual players as well (there weren't really any farmers for them then).

    Both were kept "alive" by that part of the playerbase running them, even though there were far superior options (in terms of rewards)

    You might have ignored them, because you weren't running with them, but they were there. And it is them that kept those modes alive.

    Waiting for your source to prove that these existed

  • Linken.6345Linken.6345 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Lorin.9564 said:
    An easier mode for raids would give working players and families, who can't invest that much time in the game, the chance to get access to the legendary armour. I hope Anet will give them a real chance to get the armour they like.

    It wouldent tho since easier mode would reward less overall so no achieves etc
    100% rare instead of exotic with a low chance of exotic instead of ascended for example.

  • TexZero.7910TexZero.7910 Member ✭✭✭✭
    Raids are fine the way they are, combining bosses of various difficulties

    @Linken.6345 said:

    @Lorin.9564 said:
    An easier mode for raids would give working players and families, who can't invest that much time in the game, the chance to get access to the legendary armour. I hope Anet will give them a real chance to get the armour they like.

    It wouldent tho since easier mode would reward less overall so no achieves etc
    100% rare instead of exotic with a low chance of exotic instead of ascended for example.

    You're way more generous than you should be. "Easy Raids" would be no different than open world content at which point you may as well just give them 3-5x Unid Gear.

  • Miellyn.6847Miellyn.6847 Member ✭✭✭
    Raids are fine the way they are, combining bosses of various difficulties

    As you can aquire some raids skins from the new raid during the release week in open world, we have another hint that easy modes won't happen in the forseeable future.

  • We need a hard mode, but not an easy mode

    @TexZero.7910 said:
    You're way more generous than you should be. "Easy Raids" would be no different than open world content at which point you may as well just give them 3-5x Unid Gear.

    Honestly, im fine with Easy Mode Raids having the same Chance on something ascended as normal mode raids. Ascended isnt anything special nowadays and everyone would profit from more people having proper gear.

    Dont reward LI/LD/Achievements and replace the special skin drops with normal armor and weapon boxes.

  • gonandro.4768gonandro.4768 Member ✭✭
    edited June 5, 2019
    Raids are fine the way they are, combining bosses of various difficulties

    To be honest, w7 is probably the last wing we'll see happening in gw2. so yeah, easy mode is not gonna happen.
    what really amazes me, is seeing some players have been asking for an "easy mode" for the whole existence of this thread, Imagine if you spent that time trying to actually learn instead of whining. huh...

  • Linken.6345Linken.6345 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @TexZero.7910 said:

    @Linken.6345 said:

    @Lorin.9564 said:
    An easier mode for raids would give working players and families, who can't invest that much time in the game, the chance to get access to the legendary armour. I hope Anet will give them a real chance to get the armour they like.

    It wouldent tho since easier mode would reward less overall so no achieves etc
    100% rare instead of exotic with a low chance of exotic instead of ascended for example.

    You're way more generous than you should be. "Easy Raids" would be no different than open world content at which point you may as well just give them 3-5x Unid Gear.

    Its a weekly lockout even world bosses got 100% rare, small chance for exotic and even smaller chance at ascended daily so giving less to the raid boss now when i think about it random stat ascended is fine to just not the raid skins.

  • lare.5129lare.5129 Member ✭✭✭✭
    Raids are fine the way they are, combining bosses of various difficulties

    so if we will have "easy/normal/hard "this is can mean that some achievements and loot will be possible make only on get only on hard, so it it create some elitism again.
    We real need this?
    Do we need separate players more than now ?

    want solid balance ? - play chess.

  • Astralporing.1957Astralporing.1957 Member ✭✭✭✭
    We need an easy mode, but not a hard mode

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Astralporing.1957 said:
    It may not have been the best option, but up until the pre-HoT nerf it was always among the good ones.

    Silverwastes/Dry Top say hi. There were always far better options

    as i said - maybe not the best option, but always among the good ones.
    Yes, Silverwastes was always good, but dungeons were also a safe pick. At times they were so good that only Silverwastes was better (and other options like deadeye farming and Scarlet invasions were either before Silverwastes times, or available only within a short timeframe, or both).

    It may seem like that to you because you were part of that community. Yes, Fractals were not as popular as dungeons (or even as they are now), but there was still a lot more players running it than those belonging to that "focused community" of yours.

    And now I'd like you to post some evidence to prove that since you started this discussion in the first place.

    I'd like for you to post yours, because your claim is at least as much anecdotal as mine.

    I'm pretty sure you could get more rewards by running fractals at higher and higher fractal levels. Although i may be misremembering it somehow, or mixing it up with the later system.

    There was no better/more reward for running higher tiers. And compared to the effort required to reach high enough levels it was never worth it.

    Dungeons were kept "alive" due to farmers and casual runners. Fractals barely survived due to more casual players as well (there weren't really any farmers for them then).

    Both were kept "alive" by that part of the playerbase running them, even though there were far superior options (in terms of rewards)

    See the first comment. Silverwastes existing didn't mean dungeon rewards were bad. They were always good enough that you could run dungeons without worry you're losing out. Unlike right after the dungeon reward nerf, for example.

    You might have ignored them, because you weren't running with them, but they were there. And it is them that kept those modes alive.

    Waiting for your source to prove that these existed

    Because i happened to be pugging fractals at the time and know which groups were easier to find (and that casual fractal groups vere very easy to find)? If you want hard statistical numbers, i don't have them. But neither do you.

    The whole point of a social game is to play with the people you want to play with, not be forced to play with the people you don't.

  • Astralporing.1957Astralporing.1957 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited June 5, 2019
    We need an easy mode, but not a hard mode

    @Vinceman.4572 said:

    @Astralporing.1957 said:
    Actually, there were a lot of those suggestions.

    That was 1.5 years ago when the thread was started. Nowadays I'm not seeing those people insisting on it.

    There's one a few posts above.

    @gonandro.4768 said:
    what really amazes me, is seeing some players have been asking for an "easy mode" for the whole existence of this thread, Imagine if you spent that time trying to actually learn instead of whining. huh...

    Been there, done that, still think raids were a big mistake and that either easy mode should have been made, or raids shouldn't have been introduced in the first place.

    The whole point of a social game is to play with the people you want to play with, not be forced to play with the people you don't.

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭
    Raids have problems, but we need a better solution

    @Astralporing.1957 said:
    I'd like for you to post yours, because your claim is at least as much anecdotal as mine.

    You posted:

    Seriously, remove rewards from current raids, and they will be completely dead in a month (and even that is being generous)

    You need to provide something to support that claim otherwise as you said, both with anecdotal evidence can't go anywhere.

    Because i happened to be pugging fractals at the time and know which groups were easier to find (and that casual fractal groups vere very easy to find)? If you want hard statistical numbers, i don't have them. But neither do you.

    That still means there were players running fractals and dungeons for the content and the experience, regardless of the rewards. It doesn't matter if they were casual or hardcore players, they were running the content regardless of the rewards. Something that doesn't really happen in the rest of the content, as the same open world players flock to the best farm available and neglect the rest of the game (which is why Arenanet nerfs content)

  • We need both easy and hard modes

    In every tea time, teapot add that easy mode it will be a great idea, especially for training. most of the experimented raiders are not interested in training people out of friend/guild list for them it's a waste of time and wast of time of energy. there even people who will think of charging people to do training.
    With the easy mode, the experimented raiders will probably wast one hour max to clean one wing during training with one or two wipes per boss.

  • Lorfi.7562Lorfi.7562 Member ✭✭

    @Ultramex.1506 said:

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    Then they should accept that you will get less(not "no reward" though that would be unreasonable) if you play easy mode, not every player want easy mode for easy reward but for story and first experience, complaining about easy mode rewards is like complaining T1 fractal rewards are less than T4 which was, you know, designed for beginner. If Anet ever bring in easy mode, no doubt the forum will be filled with complaints about the reward but will be,like most tread, ignored or rebuked and other type of player will still do raid easy mode.

    Like a mode with no rewards is going to survive. Seriously, remove rewards from current raids, and they will be completely dead in a month (and even that is being generous). And that even with most of the vocal raiders claiming they aren't interested in rewards and are in it for challenge. It's hardly any different for easy mode (or for any other content).

    Those making this kind of "concessions" about easy mode are perfectly aware of that.

    I didn't said Easy raid should have no rewards, i said it should have less rewards. And there is a different in Easy, people can learn how bosses mechanic work and be prepared for the pressure and the difficulty that is hard mode which is the true experience for raid, with first hand experience + the best rewards in hard mode will motivate player to move out of easy mode.

    easy mode can get the same reward raiders get for killing a boss again after first kill of the week, 5masterwork gear bags and 3utility bags. Maybe add a guaranteed rare with chance to be an exotic and 50s, but don't give guaranteed exotic because it'd be too rewarding in the end. They don't need the LI/LD(enough easy li/ld to get anyway already) or ascended and imo don't deserve the raid exclusive drops.

  • Lorfi.7562Lorfi.7562 Member ✭✭

    @Lorin.9564 said:
    An easier mode for raids would give working players and families, who can't invest that much time in the game, the chance to get access to the legendary armour. I hope Anet will give them a real chance to get the armour they like.

    imo the part that takes the most time to get the legendary raid armor isn't raiding.. it's getting 1.8k gold and getting ALL the meta currency of HoT to get the gifts.
    if you make one day a week 2hrs free for raids you could get the legendary gear in half a year. Even as a parent you can do that if you work a 9-5 job, learning how to plan your week helps greatly and it's very nice that most training guilds plan their raids a week ahead of time and are very understanding if you gotta cancel last minute cause personal reasons. But seriously raiding in gw2 doesn't mean you need to spend 3-5hrs/day busy raiding, if you got the time to farm the gold for legendary armor and farm the meta's you had the time to raid a bit. (I know plenty of people that work and/or have kids that made it work)

    Also easy mode shouldn't get access to legendary armor.. if you want effortless legendary armor, you can get it in PvP/WvW by afking already. Seriously the point of easymode originally was so people could learn the lore and explore the areas, not to get the same rewards as people who actually put minimal effort into one of the very few gamemodes that require some effort. Stop wanting EVERY kitty THING for no kitty effort at all, it'll be the dead of gw2 when everything is available for 0 effort.

  • Linken.6345Linken.6345 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @Vinceman.4572 said:

    @Astralporing.1957 said:
    Actually, there were a lot of those suggestions.

    That was 1.5 years ago when the thread was started. Nowadays I'm not seeing those people insisting on it.

    There's one a few posts above.

    @gonandro.4768 said:
    what really amazes me, is seeing some players have been asking for an "easy mode" for the whole existence of this thread, Imagine if you spent that time trying to actually learn instead of whining. huh...

    Been there, done that, still think raids were a big mistake and that either easy mode should have been made, or raids shouldn't have been introduced in the first place.

    Can you quote that new post above it dident say no loot it said less loot.

  • Blaeys.3102Blaeys.3102 Member ✭✭✭
    edited June 5, 2019
    We need both easy and hard modes

    Everyone arguing about loot and balancing with fun - it is a moot point. We know they could make this work because other games have made it work - and, while those models couldn't be copy/pasted, modified versions would obviously fit in the game.

    The barriers are developmental resources and developer reticence, plain and simple.

    That said, it is interesting to look at this thread every so often and see that the number of people voting for "we need both" continues to steadily increase. I know people want to discredit what they see, but the results of this poll are pretty conclusive at this point.

  • Miellyn.6847Miellyn.6847 Member ✭✭✭
    edited June 5, 2019
    Raids are fine the way they are, combining bosses of various difficulties

    @Blaeys.3102 said:
    Everyone arguing about loot and balancing with fun - it is a moot point. We know they could make this work because other games have made it work - and, while those models couldn't be copy/pasted, modified versions would obviously fit in the game.

    The barriers are developmental resources and developer reticence, plain and simple.

    That said, it is interesting to look at this thread every so often and see that the number of people voting for "we need both" continues to steadily increase. I know people want to discredit what they see, but the results of this poll are pretty conclusive at this point.

    The fact that the game is still running without an easy mode, forums are a very small percentage of players and low level fractals are effectively dead outside of recommended dailys and legendary collections shows that the poll is useless.

    The other games have vertical progression and offer character development above dungeon quality in difficulties the target audience would normally play. That is a major pull effect for replayability that GW2 can't offer.
    In GW2 everything is about rewards and if you scale the easy mode rewards with content equal in open world, nobody will play it more than once. Which are actually wasted ressources with content at that scale with the current development.

  • TexZero.7910TexZero.7910 Member ✭✭✭✭
    Raids are fine the way they are, combining bosses of various difficulties

    @RaidsAreEasyAF.8652 said:
    Honestly, im fine with Easy Mode Raids having the same Chance on something ascended as normal mode raids. Ascended isnt anything special nowadays and everyone would profit from more people having proper gear.

    Respectfully disagree. Everyone would benefit if people played the game and learned properly, handing out gear doesn't solve that issue and only causes players to become more complaicent.

    Dont reward LI/LD/Achievements and replace the special skin drops with normal armor and weapon boxes.

    This i can agree with.

    However, the that only works if easy mode still retains the mechanics it needs to to actually teach people. If the mechanics that cause wipes are changed or removed then they don't deserve to get ascended quality anything as stated before you're turning them into glorified open world content at that point.

  • Zaklex.6308Zaklex.6308 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Lorin.9564 said:
    An easier mode for raids would give working players and families, who can't invest that much time in the game, the chance to get access to the legendary armour. I hope Anet will give them a real chance to get the armour they like.

    As much as I might like to agree with this statement, I can't for a couple of reasons. The first being that whether or not you work or have a family one fundamental of a healthy life is to make time for yourself, unlike other MMO's you don't need 3 - 5 hours to do a raid in GW2, from what I've seen and heard they can be completed in 1 - 2 hours, which is adequate time for those working and with families for "me" time. Secondly if you have an "easy" mode I don't think anyone participating should get the Legendary Armor, if you want the Legendary Armor then you need to be willing to put in some time and effort for it...and that's speaking as a person who would partake of easy mode raids, but otherwise I really have no desire or inclination to try them.

    Yes...no...maybe...what do you want, can't you see I'm busy saving the world...AGAIN!

  • We need a hard mode, but not an easy mode

    @TexZero.7910 said:
    Respectfully disagree. Everyone would benefit if people played the game and learned properly, handing out gear doesn't solve that issue and only causes players to become more complaicent.

    I think we both now that thats not going to happen.
    However, i still think everyone can benefit from this. Autoattacking in Ascended is better than autoattacking in exotics.
    Ascended isnt anything special anymore anyway. I really dont see an issue in making in easier to aquire for everyone.

  • Lonami.2987Lonami.2987 Member ✭✭✭
    We need both easy and hard modes

    Well, it's been quite some time. Seems strike missions are the new cool thing, replacing raids to some point. I'm sure there's a lot of conflicting opinions about that around here, and who knows, some of you might even have a different opinion about the original topic nowadays.

    So yeah, what's your take on the issue? Has anyone changed his mind?

    Results so far:

    • We need both easy and hard modes - 597 - 52%
    • We need an easy mode, but not a hard mode - 92 - 8%
    • We need a hard mode, but not an easy mode - 90 - 7%
    • Raids are fine the way they are, combining bosses of various difficulties - 270 - 23%
    • Raids have problems, but we need a better solution - 83 - 7%

    From the data above:

    • 60% of the people want an easy mode.
    • 59% of the people want a hard mode.
    • 67% of the people want difficulty modes.
    • 30% of the people doesn't want difficulty modes.

    @Tyson.5160 said:

    @gonandro.4768 said:
    Hello everyone! Just passing by for my monthly visit to this thread.
    Take a look at the game: we had 1 raid release last year.
    Easy mode is not gonna happen.
    Get better at the game.
    Have a nice day!

    What may happen is Raids might get discontinued after Wing 7 and any future elite spec might cheese the content and turn it into the next set of dungeons. So Raids fate might in theory become an easy mode anyhow, which really isn’t the outcome I wanted. 😢

    Looks like worst case predictions came true after all. The writing was on the wall, 20+ years of modern MMO history to learn from, but whatever.

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @Vinceman.4572 said:

    @Tyson.5160 said:

    @gonandro.4768 said:
    Hello everyone! Just passing by for my monthly visit to this thread.
    Take a look at the game: we had 1 raid release last year.
    Easy mode is not gonna happen.
    Get better at the game.
    Have a nice day!

    What may happen is Raids might get discontinued after Wing 7 and any future elite spec might cheese the content and turn it into the next set of dungeons. So Raids fate might in theory become an easy mode anyhow, which really isn’t the outcome I wanted. 😢

    If that happens to raids it will automatically lead to the same result for fractals and to the death of any serious challenging content at all in GW2.

    Probably. Notice however, that in general this kind of content isn't immensely popular here, and the changes to fractals that keep increasing difficulty over and over again did a lot to depopulate the content. I'd say that keeping fractals at current difficulty level simply isn't sustainable in the long run anyway.

    I know lot of people stopped running fractals after the instability changes a few months ago. They were hardly fun before, with barely any rewards aside from gold as the reason to stay around, and then they turned them into an even bigger pain. The game mode wasn't doing well, and they made everything worse.

    @Vinceman.4572 said:

    @Tsan.6431 said:

    @Vinceman.4572 said:
    If that happens to raids it will automatically lead to the same result for fractals and to the death of any serious challenging content at all in GW2.

    Fractals ? That's why is more difficult to find a fractal T3 or low level T4 them a T4 HL ???

    It's more difficult to find people for T3 due to them being harder to play with inexperienced players you find there at the moment. People who can head for T4 will do that obviously because it guarantees much more rewards and you meet (or in the past "met") players knowing what and how to do it.
    But I still don't see your point. You can't seriously have the opinion that easing raids down will lead to a remarkable influx of players for fractals (I hope you see the dependence & connection on fractal difficulty via balancing). The crowd aiming for challenging content won't come back if things get easier, that's a fact. The majority left because there is not enough content to satisfy their wishes. Another part due to the latest changes.
    The rest of the player base hasn't even played lower tier fractals (not to speak of regularly). they also won't join this part just because power creep. They are not interested in instanced content. There's one thing you can do: tune rewards even higher and your Silverwaste crowd will farm ez T4 fracs.

    I would argue fractals would be fine with just 3 tiers, and a special tier for the hard modes (now challenge motes). Fractal level should be detached from level completion and turned into an exclusive mastery line with its own xp gain restrictions and mastery insights instead, if not removed altogether. Something like WvW ranks would be great too.

    @lare.5129 said:
    so if we will have "easy/normal/hard "this is can mean that some achievements and loot will be possible make only on get only on hard, so it it create some elitism again.
    We real need this?
    Do we need separate players more than now ?

    Separating can lead to a healthier community, while forcing everyone together can destroy it.

  • Crackmonster.2790Crackmonster.2790 Member ✭✭✭
    We need both easy and hard modes

    Raid difficulty is what leads to elitism. I'm done with serious raid enviroment for the rest of my life, nowadays i just wanna play and while i play fairly well myself, i want content where you can make mistakes and not die right away, where you dont have to dodge a new killshot every 0.1 second, content where you learn and improve and then when you feel like you mastered the encounters you can take it to proper raids confident that you won't make mistakes in those fights. I don't care if you only get 1/3 of the rewards of normals raids, just give me a way to enjoy that content and have fun in some group fights and if i do that enough it's possible to earn the rewards. As long as normal raids are clearly more rewarding, all is good. And maybe some titles for harder raids too.

    In other words, i'm not setting foot inside raids the way they are now - it's not forgiving enough and i don't like the people and the their attitudes. Don't get me wrong, i don't meet many that can outperform me in the many years i played wow, but i also liked less and less the environment that raids breeds. I prefer ARPG gameplay i farm all day long and it's more about farm cadence and having fun than anything else. There are hardmode raids, pvp, wvw if you wanna compete more seriously. But the way it is now, myself and i am sure many many more won't step foot in raids because it doesn't give a good feeling inside with the players there and how unforgiving it is.

    So you want more people in raids the answer is super simple - make a far more forgiving mode where decent+ pugs can go in and clear it without too much trouble, just ones that can listen to basic tactics but they don't need to be masters and can make mistakes and it won't be the end. I love dungeons and raids with random people the most, but it gets ruined when the raids gets so hard they breed elitism.

  • DoRi Silvia.4159DoRi Silvia.4159 Member ✭✭✭

    Wow such a old thread

    Easy mode is the way to go to attract new players into raiding

    Definitely no LI or LD drops and much MUCH lesser rewards for the easy mode (otherwise no point in having normal)

    Scale the boss damage and mechanic damage so it may give a second chance to players who missed em or not know what to do but still do a decent output damage so they know it's not one to face tank

    As more people do the easy mode it should interest some to go try the normal as they now know what mechanics are in place

    I honestly dont know why anet decided to go with strikes instead....
    If the current raids are kept as normal mode, keep the cm for challenges and add a easy mode so pugs can see/explore and taste what raids are like.

    But will only work if rewards are far less

  • vesica tempestas.1563vesica tempestas.1563 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 12, 2020
    We need both easy and hard modes

    It's a no brainer, the vast majority of players do pve, only a tiny minority do raids, obviously the style pve in raids is to blame, e. G, minmaxing, rote memorisation of hoop jumping to progress, simplification of build to organise (dps role etc) and a little elitism on top.

    Give easier mode where the goal is not to offer this kind of gameplay, but to offer 10 man instances pve and you have a winner. The beauty is this increase in player base = more resource for raids = more hard content as well. Everyone wins.

    "Any path that narrows future possibilities may become a lethal trap. Humans do not thread their way through a maze; they scan a vast horizon filled with unique opportunities." - The Spacing Guild Handbook.

    Beware the meta!

  • Terra.9506Terra.9506 Member ✭✭✭
    edited March 12, 2020

    I didn't do raid but I don't think difficulty is the main issue. How do I can judge the difficult of the content If I didn't have opportunity to try in first place.

    My main reason is this content require too many people and "Meta" build to make it "playable" I'm type of player who prefer to do thing alone not member of any guild (but my one man guild) it's nearly impossible to get enough people to do it , just waiting alone would take like hour... and it would take like 30+ min to finish each raid. if I suddenly got a phone call or any reason to left at mid flight it'll ruin the entire party and that feel really bad.

    but since this's the nature of this content I'll not ask Anet to change it and people who already have time to enjoy can stay enjoy it. instead of change this content I'm more prefer overhaul Dungeon or add mini raid content where it's can finish faster and need less people like fractral give lesser but same reward.

  • Draygorn.7012Draygorn.7012 Member ✭✭✭
    We need both easy and hard modes

    It's a good idea and will definitely help more noobish players (like myself) get into the swing of raids in a less daunting manner. I think a lot of us do want to try our hand at raiding, but have been a little intimidated to try it because of the large leap in difficultly, which may also be part of the reason why the raiding player base is so minimal. I know Anet has implemented Strike Missions as pseudo easier raids, but doesn't really bridge the gap well enough. Also, harder difficulty for raids will help the veterans to not get bored of the content as much :P

  • @Draygorn.7012 said:
    It's a good idea and will definitely help more noobish players (like myself) get into the swing of raids in a less daunting manner. I think a lot of us do want to try our hand at raiding, but have been a little intimidated to try it because of the large leap in difficultly, which may also be part of the reason why the raiding player base is so minimal. I know Anet has implemented Strike Missions as pseudo easier raids, but doesn't really bridge the gap well enough. Also, harder difficulty for raids will help the veterans to not get bored of the content as much :P

    Strike Missions from the scale of 1-10 (10 being the hardest) , how hard are they ?
    5 ?

    By boyfriend and I , we are trying to clear Wing 5 in our spare time and we havent done them .

    Be Right Back My Lord - Desolation

  • Ayrilana.1396Ayrilana.1396 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 13, 2020
    Raids are fine the way they are, combining bosses of various difficulties

    @Draygorn.7012 said:
    It's a good idea and will definitely help more noobish players (like myself) get into the swing of raids in a less daunting manner. I think a lot of us do want to try our hand at raiding, but have been a little intimidated to try it because of the large leap in difficultly, which may also be part of the reason why the raiding player base is so minimal. I know Anet has implemented Strike Missions as pseudo easier raids, but doesn't really bridge the gap well enough. Also, harder difficulty for raids will help the veterans to not get bored of the content as much :P

    It would if players took them seriously as if they were doing actual raids. The problem is that you still have a lot of people doing them while having terrible personal DPS and not even attempting the bonus chests.

  • Strider.7849Strider.7849 Member ✭✭✭
    Raids have problems, but we need a better solution

    Raids need a lower people requirement, this would make them more accessible to EVERYONE. The hardest entry point into raids is needing a 10 man group who can all play at the same time. We have lives; jobs, wives, girlfriends, kids, studies, friends, pets.... You get it. Even then, when you achieve a group through all this Bs - learning the raid you are then having to deal with players who have very different skill levels.

    I would love to complete a raid (I'm a veteran player with above average abilities in game) and have never completed one for the above reasons. Until both anet and the community wakes up and realizes this is why raids are a fail it will continue to be.

  • Astralporing.1957Astralporing.1957 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 14, 2020
    We need an easy mode, but not a hard mode

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:

    @Draygorn.7012 said:
    It's a good idea and will definitely help more noobish players (like myself) get into the swing of raids in a less daunting manner. I think a lot of us do want to try our hand at raiding, but have been a little intimidated to try it because of the large leap in difficultly, which may also be part of the reason why the raiding player base is so minimal. I know Anet has implemented Strike Missions as pseudo easier raids, but doesn't really bridge the gap well enough. Also, harder difficulty for raids will help the veterans to not get bored of the content as much :P

    It would if players took them seriously as if they were doing actual raids. The problem is that you still have a lot of people doing them while having terrible personal DPS and not even attempting the bonus chests.

    No, The problem is that the people that would treat strikes as seriously as raids should be treated are the people that do not need any bridges of this kind. For everyone else however strikes are no help at all.
    Strikes as they are might be good for only one thing - experimenting with the different levels of difficulty and rewards and seeing which works best for the target group Anet has in mind. But even for this they aren;t all that good, because a lot of players tend to lump all strikes together, instead of seeing and treating each of them individually.

    The whole point of a social game is to play with the people you want to play with, not be forced to play with the people you don't.