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Do raids need easy/normal/hard difficulty mode? [merged]

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  • CasualElitist.8795CasualElitist.8795 Member ✭✭
    edited April 8, 2021

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Astralporing.1957 said:
    That Anet devs when introducing the armor, seemingly have forgotten about them. Or, worse, it's not that they've forgotten - they simply didn't care.

    Oh wow. the feelings of those poor players got hurt because they didn't get a new skin. Let me get this, Arenanet adding Legendary Armor in Raids exclusively, made some players feel forgotten or that the developers don't care about them. Because of a skin (and a so called gear tier that they won't use anyway)
    Now I wonder how players that get zero content for literal years would feel. You know, ANY content, something playable, something to DO, not a skin. And someone dares to say they feel neglected and abandoned because they didn't get legendary armor. Roll eyes.

    Sure, the players that get literal zero content for years have every right to feel neglected as well. Being neglected is not fun. So, now all of us can feel the same way. I'm sure that it makes the game overall better [/sarcasm]
    But seriously, two wrongs don't make a right.

    Honestly, I'd feel really good if I was getting tons of content, new things to work towards, the entire game centered around me, even if ONE thing was out of my reach. You said, Anet "forgotten" about them, even though they kept giving them new content every couple of months, that's a weird way to be "forgotten" but I guess we have a very different definition for words like "forgotten", "neglected" and "abandoned".

    667 days since the last raid release :PEPEHANDS:

  • Raids have problems, but we need a better solution

    They sell me the carry for 300 gold dhuum cm and 150 for the achievement of the 5 min of the grent statues, is that fair?

  • mindcircus.1506mindcircus.1506 Member ✭✭✭✭
    Raids are fine the way they are, combining bosses of various difficulties

    @Guille.7985 said:
    They sell me the carry for 300 gold dhuum cm and 150 for the achievement of the 5 min of the grent statues, is that fair?

    As long as you decide not to do it yourself and agree upon the price it is absolutely fair.
    If you don't believe it to be a fair price it is simply incumbent upon yourself to not pay it.

    Considering the time and expertise the players in question have put in to learn the encounter and gear up I don't think 300g is at all unreasonable. Assuming the other 9 people are carrying and split the gold equally it actually seems like pretty fair compensation to carry someone unwilling to learn to do so themselves.

    "We recognize that some players are not able to complete all content." Gaile Gray 01.10.19

  • Tyson.5160Tyson.5160 Member ✭✭✭✭
    We need both easy and hard modes

    I stated this many years ago, take the approach of how PvP was implemented. Give easy mode access to the Armor, however make it take way longer. Such as you get a 1/4 piece of the LI or whatever and have it time gated.

    Much like PvP Armor, you can lose every match and still obtain the Armor except it takes eons. This forces people to look at normal mode as a faster route to the Armor much like winning matches in PvP helps you get the PvP Armor faster.

    Giving that addition, I would not be surprised if the community would grow just with that initiative.

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭
    Raids are fine the way they are, combining bosses of various difficulties

    @Tyson.5160 said:
    I stated this many years ago, take the approach of how PvP was implemented. Give easy mode access to the Armor, however make it take way longer. Such as you get a 1/4 piece of the LI or whatever and have it time gated.

    Much like PvP Armor, you can lose every match and still obtain the Armor except it takes eons. This forces people to look at normal mode as a faster route to the Armor much like winning matches in PvP helps you get the PvP Armor faster.

    Giving that addition, I would not be surprised if the community would grow just with that initiative.

    Just 1 question:"how is the pvp population these days?"

    I think that should cover how well your suggestion worked for pvp and how well it would work for pve.

  • Astralporing.1957Astralporing.1957 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited April 13, 2021
    We need an easy mode, but not a hard mode

    @Cyninja.2954 said:
    Just 1 question:"how is the pvp population these days?"

    I think that should cover how well your suggestion worked for pvp and how well it would work for pve.

    Assuming the loss of SPvP population has anything to do with it.

    I could as well ask you how well the reward system present in raids worked out for that content. I mean, with them being super-popular and well supported by devs these days...
    ...oh wait.

    (yeah, SPvP is in far worse state, but there are many very good reasons for that that have absolutely nothing to do with the reward system. And some that do have a lot to do with the reward system, but for completely different reasons than you might think)

    The whole point of a social game is to play with the people you want to play with, not be forced to play with the people you don't.

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭
    Raids have problems, but we need a better solution

    @Astralporing.1957 said:
    I could as well ask you how well the reward system present in raids worked out for that content. I mean, with them being super-popular and well supported by devs these days...

    Well, it's not like the reward system for all Raids is universal. But to stay on the argument of how a reward system helps or not, the reward system in POF Raids indeed didn't help the content at all, as the much higher popularity of HOT Raids shows, and their much faster development. So I guess having a unique legendary item (legendary armor) in Raids did help HOT Raids. Meanwhile, there are different avenues of acquiring a legendary Ring, and their participation/popularity is much lower.
    Now, of course they added different ways of acquiring legendary armor, later on, when Raid popularity also went down. Coincidence? Maybe, maybe not.

  • yann.1946yann.1946 Member ✭✭✭✭
    Raids have problems, but we need a better solution

    @maddoctor.2738 said:
    Now, of course they added different ways of acquiring legendary armor, later on, when Raid popularity also went down. Coincidence? Maybe, maybe not.

    Tbh the other legendary ring was also added later. The stronger point is that you didn't actually have to farm the PoF raids for the ring with the transition rate.

  • Astralporing.1957Astralporing.1957 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited April 13, 2021
    We need an easy mode, but not a hard mode

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Astralporing.1957 said:
    I could as well ask you how well the reward system present in raids worked out for that content. I mean, with them being super-popular and well supported by devs these days...

    Well, it's not like the reward system for all Raids is universal. But to stay on the argument of how a reward system helps or not, the reward system in POF Raids indeed didn't help the content at all, as the much higher popularity of HOT Raids shows, and their much faster development. So I guess having a unique legendary item (legendary armor) in Raids did help HOT Raids. Meanwhile, there are different avenues of acquiring a legendary Ring, and their participation/popularity is much lower.
    Now, of course they added different ways of acquiring legendary armor, later on, when Raid popularity also went down. Coincidence? Maybe, maybe not.

    Correct me if i'm wrong, but the alternatives to legendary armor were added even before raid ring was first mentioned (few months after Envoy set was actually released, and few months before Wing 5 release), and Conflux - the only alternative to Coalescence, was added half a year after last raid wing release, and after devs already mentioned they can't justify making more wings.
    As such, i don't see how those alternative options could have significantly influenced raid unpopularity in any way. And especially how the WvW ring could have influenced something that happened loooong before it was introduced

    The whole point of a social game is to play with the people you want to play with, not be forced to play with the people you don't.

  • Tyson.5160Tyson.5160 Member ✭✭✭✭
    We need both easy and hard modes

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Tyson.5160 said:
    I stated this many years ago, take the approach of how PvP was implemented. Give easy mode access to the Armor, however make it take way longer. Such as you get a 1/4 piece of the LI or whatever and have it time gated.

    Much like PvP Armor, you can lose every match and still obtain the Armor except it takes eons. This forces people to look at normal mode as a faster route to the Armor much like winning matches in PvP helps you get the PvP Armor faster.

    Giving that addition, I would not be surprised if the community would grow just with that initiative.

    Just 1 question:"how is the pvp population these days?"

    I think that should cover how well your suggestion worked for pvp and how well it would work for pve.

    I guess I could ask you the same question with Raids...

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited April 13, 2021
    Raids are fine the way they are, combining bosses of various difficulties

    @Tyson.5160 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Tyson.5160 said:
    I stated this many years ago, take the approach of how PvP was implemented. Give easy mode access to the Armor, however make it take way longer. Such as you get a 1/4 piece of the LI or whatever and have it time gated.

    Much like PvP Armor, you can lose every match and still obtain the Armor except it takes eons. This forces people to look at normal mode as a faster route to the Armor much like winning matches in PvP helps you get the PvP Armor faster.

    Giving that addition, I would not be surprised if the community would grow just with that initiative.

    Just 1 question:"how is the pvp population these days?"

    I think that should cover how well your suggestion worked for pvp and how well it would work for pve.

    I guess I could ask you the same question with Raids...

    I'm not the one suggesting a nearly dead game modes reward system is the solution here.

  • Sobx.1758Sobx.1758 Member ✭✭✭✭
    Raids are fine the way they are, combining bosses of various difficulties

    @Tyson.5160 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Tyson.5160 said:
    I stated this many years ago, take the approach of how PvP was implemented. Give easy mode access to the Armor, however make it take way longer. Such as you get a 1/4 piece of the LI or whatever and have it time gated.

    Much like PvP Armor, you can lose every match and still obtain the Armor except it takes eons. This forces people to look at normal mode as a faster route to the Armor much like winning matches in PvP helps you get the PvP Armor faster.

    Giving that addition, I would not be surprised if the community would grow just with that initiative.

    Just 1 question:"how is the pvp population these days?"

    I think that should cover how well your suggestion worked for pvp and how well it would work for pve.

    I guess I could ask you the same question with Raids...

    ...how is asking this question relevant other than being an attempt at some snarky backhanded comment? You gave your "idea" as an argument to grow population. pvp didn't grow in population. Current population of raids is irrelevant, what's relevant is that your idea is shown to not help, right?

  • Tyson.5160Tyson.5160 Member ✭✭✭✭
    We need both easy and hard modes

    @Sobx.1758 said:

    @Tyson.5160 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Tyson.5160 said:
    I stated this many years ago, take the approach of how PvP was implemented. Give easy mode access to the Armor, however make it take way longer. Such as you get a 1/4 piece of the LI or whatever and have it time gated.

    Much like PvP Armor, you can lose every match and still obtain the Armor except it takes eons. This forces people to look at normal mode as a faster route to the Armor much like winning matches in PvP helps you get the PvP Armor faster.

    Giving that addition, I would not be surprised if the community would grow just with that initiative.

    Just 1 question:"how is the pvp population these days?"

    I think that should cover how well your suggestion worked for pvp and how well it would work for pve.

    I guess I could ask you the same question with Raids...

    ...how is asking this question relevant other than being an attempt at some snarky backhanded comment? You gave your "idea" as an argument to grow population. pvp didn't grow in population. Current population of raids is irrelevant, what's relevant is that your idea is shown to not help, right?

    Made a suggestion.

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭
    Raids are fine the way they are, combining bosses of various difficulties

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Astralporing.1957 said:
    I could as well ask you how well the reward system present in raids worked out for that content. I mean, with them being super-popular and well supported by devs these days...

    Well, it's not like the reward system for all Raids is universal. But to stay on the argument of how a reward system helps or not, the reward system in POF Raids indeed didn't help the content at all, as the much higher popularity of HOT Raids shows, and their much faster development. So I guess having a unique legendary item (legendary armor) in Raids did help HOT Raids. Meanwhile, there are different avenues of acquiring a legendary Ring, and their participation/popularity is much lower.
    Now, of course they added different ways of acquiring legendary armor, later on, when Raid popularity also went down. Coincidence? Maybe, maybe not.

    Correct me if i'm wrong, but the alternatives to legendary armor were added even before raid ring was first mentioned (few months after Envoy set was actually released, and few months before Wing 5 release), and Conflux - the only alternative to Coalescence, was added half a year after last raid wing release, and after devs already mentioned they can't justify making more wings.
    As such, i don't see how those alternative options could have significantly influenced raid unpopularity in any way. And especially how the WvW ring could have influenced something that happened loooong before it was introduced

    You are also considering the ease of acquisition of ascended trinkets here versus legendary trinkets (pretty much THE most expensive upgrade to get) versus the cost and ease of ascended armor to legendary armor (pretty much THE cheapest upgrade to get)?

    Legendary items don't exist in a vacume and legendary trinkets are very low on the list of goals for many players as such it seems reasonable to assume that their appeal as "carrot" is minimal ehile armor had a far more significant effect.

  • Astralporing.1957Astralporing.1957 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited April 13, 2021
    We need an easy mode, but not a hard mode

    @Cyninja.2954 said:
    Legendary items don't exist in a vacume and legendary trinkets are very low on the list of goals for many players as such it seems reasonable to assume that their appeal as "carrot" is minimal ehile armor had a far more significant effect.

    That's fair point when comparing relative draw of HoT and PoF wing rewards. @maddoctor.2738 however was suggesting that PoF raid popularity got negatively influenced by alternate method of acquisition for legendary ring. Which is not very likely considering when said alternative got introduced.

    Also, if we assume that it was the reward difference between HoT and PoF raids (and not sometjing else) that was so important it caused downfall of PoF wings, then a question arises, whether first wings were indeed as popular as some raiders claim, or was it all due to legendary armor.

    The whole point of a social game is to play with the people you want to play with, not be forced to play with the people you don't.

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭
    Raids have problems, but we need a better solution

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Astralporing.1957 said:
    I could as well ask you how well the reward system present in raids worked out for that content. I mean, with them being super-popular and well supported by devs these days...

    Well, it's not like the reward system for all Raids is universal. But to stay on the argument of how a reward system helps or not, the reward system in POF Raids indeed didn't help the content at all, as the much higher popularity of HOT Raids shows, and their much faster development. So I guess having a unique legendary item (legendary armor) in Raids did help HOT Raids. Meanwhile, there are different avenues of acquiring a legendary Ring, and their participation/popularity is much lower.
    Now, of course they added different ways of acquiring legendary armor, later on, when Raid popularity also went down. Coincidence? Maybe, maybe not.

    Correct me if i'm wrong, but the alternatives to legendary armor were added even before raid ring was first mentioned (few months after Envoy set was actually released, and few months before Wing 5 release), and Conflux - the only alternative to Coalescence, was added half a year after last raid wing release, and after devs already mentioned they can't justify making more wings.

    PVP Legendary Armor was added on August 2017. The Perfected Envoy armor was fully available since May 2017, so there was a delay of 3 months between the full release of Envoy armor and the introduction of an alternative.

    Although Conflux was added -later-, we still got Aurora and Vision, legendary trinkets available outside Raiding, one of them before POF Raids started. By the way Conflux is not an alternative to Coalescence, because you still need multiple Rings. But the alternative in this part was the availability of multiple Legendary trinkets, outside of Raiding.

    As such, i don't see how those alternative options could have significantly influenced raid unpopularity in any way. And especially how the WvW ring could have influenced something that happened loooong before it was introduced

    Well you asked how the reward system present in Raids worked out for them. They changed that reward system with POF Raids significantly and saying that it didn't affect the popularity of POF Raids is rather odd to me. HOT Raids had a Legendary Armor, something unique at the time, while POF Raids had a trinket, which had already availability outside raiding. Plus it was a trinket. By the time Coalescence became available we already had legendary trinkets available outside of Raids, what if it wasn't a ring specifically?

  • Astralporing.1957Astralporing.1957 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited April 13, 2021
    We need an easy mode, but not a hard mode

    @maddoctor.2738 said:
    PVP Legendary Armor was added on August 2017. The Perfected Envoy armor was fully available since May 2017, so there was a delay of 3 months between the full release of Envoy armor and the introduction of an alternative.

    Although Conflux was added -later-, we still got Aurora and Vision, legendary trinkets available outside Raiding, one of them before POF Raids started.

    Since they do not compete for the slot, it doesn't matter. An amulet is not a replacement for ring. Just as weapons are not replacements, alternative nor competition for armor.

    By the way Conflux is not an alternative to Coalescence, because you still need multiple Rings.

    You can use Conflux alongside Slumbering Conflux. Still doesn't matter, as it got released half a year after wing 7, when the direction the raids were going was already set.

    But the alternative in this part was the availability of multiple Legendary trinkets, outside of Raiding.

    That's not an alternative. They do not replace but complement each other.

    As such, i don't see how those alternative options could have significantly influenced raid unpopularity in any way. And especially how the WvW ring could have influenced something that happened loooong before it was introduced

    Well you asked how the reward system present in Raids worked out for them. They changed that reward system with POF Raids significantly and saying that it didn't affect the popularity of POF Raids is rather odd to me.

    That's not what you said. You specifically brought up that PoF ring had an alternative. Which appeared too late to have an impact.

    HOT Raids had a Legendary Armor, something unique at the time, while POF Raids had a trinket, which had already availability outside raiding.

    As i mentioned, there was no other ring. And one trinket is no more a replacement for another different type of trinket as weapon or backpack is a replacement for armor.

    Plus it was a trinket. By the time Coalescence became available we already had legendary trinkets available outside of Raids, what if it wasn't a ring specifically?

    You might as well say that by the time legendary armor became available, we've already had multiple other legendaries, what if they were weapons and backpacks and not armor specifically.
    It doesn't work that way. People that had legendary weapons did not stop wanting legendary armor or backpack. People that had a backpack did not want a ring any less.

    You might have had a point if you said what @Cyninja.2954 mentioned about ascended rings being very easy and cheap to acquire (which may make legendary rings less desirable in comparison). Or if you brought up the fact that HoT raids had a whole armor set, but PoF ones had only one trinket. But that's not what you said. You started speaking about how the existence of alternatives was what was so damaging, possibly because that was the point you wanted to argue with (and those two arguments i just mentioned were pretty much irrelevant in that discussion). Unfortunately, you picked very wrong example for that, one that doesn't show anything like that at all.

    Also, again. If the change of the reward system between HoT and PoF wings had so significant impact to be responsible for the significant drop of population between those two wings (which i am not saying it wasn't - whole armor set was definitely a way more desirable reward than a single ring), it just means that the popularity of HoT wings you often bring up was way overinflated due to the armor. That many players that went in there did it for the armor alone, and not for the content.

    So, perhaps devs were justified in never following on their initial promises, which they've made based on initial raid numbers, which at that point might have believed represented a genuine interest in the mode itself.

    The whole point of a social game is to play with the people you want to play with, not be forced to play with the people you don't.

  • Vilin.8056Vilin.8056 Member ✭✭✭
    edited April 14, 2021
    Raids are fine the way they are, combining bosses of various difficulties

    @Astralporing.1957 said:
    Also, again. If the change of the reward system between HoT and PoF wings had so significant impact to be responsible for the significant drop of population between those two wings (which i am not saying it wasn't - whole armor set was definitely a way more desirable reward than a single ring), it just means that the popularity of HoT wings you often bring up was way overinflated due to the armor. That many players that went in there did it for the armor alone, and not for the content.

    The armor has very little to do with it. Loot has never been the main focus for hardcore player to play hardcore contents in the first place. Most casual player find the fun in rewards but hardcore players are more focused in the thrills of quality contents.

    Most PUG raid pattern tends to skip boss fights with unforgiving platforming elements. Which is the same reason why wing 1 Sabetha, wing 3 Xera (and before the introduction of Healbrand & Heal Scourge, Wing 2 Sloth) remain some of the least participated PUG raids today.

    POF raids tends to include heavier jump puzzle elements than HOT raids, especially with Wing 5 made a major design flaws by introducing many sudden death mechanics that has very little to do with the boss battle itself, player interest slided as the result. By the time wing 7 simplefied its platforming in its first two bosses, the game's declining playerbase can no longer sustain squad based hardcore contents.

  • Astralporing.1957Astralporing.1957 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited April 14, 2021
    We need an easy mode, but not a hard mode

    @Vilin.8056 said:

    @Astralporing.1957 said:
    Also, again. If the change of the reward system between HoT and PoF wings had so significant impact to be responsible for the significant drop of population between those two wings (which i am not saying it wasn't - whole armor set was definitely a way more desirable reward than a single ring), it just means that the popularity of HoT wings you often bring up was way overinflated due to the armor. That many players that went in there did it for the armor alone, and not for the content.

    The armor has very little to do with it. Loot has never been the main focus for hardcore player to play hardcore contents in the first place.

    That's part of the point, isn't it? Whether the legendary armor was good enough of a reward to bring in players that were not interested in the content (and how many of those). So, how many people ended up playing raids that were not "hardcore players focusing on hardcore content".

    Notice, by the way, that both answer to my "if" question have consequences. If the reward system had significant impact on player population in raids, then the original participation numbers cannot be really used as arguments for raid popularity (because we can't be sure then what part of those numbers was due to the rewards popularity and was not tied to the content itself). If the rewards however had no visible impact on participation numbers at all, then we can't claim that having alternate methods of acquisition for those would have been a bad idea.

    Most PUG raid pattern tends to skip boss fights with unforgiving platforming elements. Which is the same reason why wing 1 Sabetha, wing 3 Xera (and before the introduction of Healbrand & Heal Scourge, Wing 2 Sloth) remain some of the least participated PUG raids today.

    POF raids tends to include heavier jump puzzle elements than HOT raids, especially with Wing 5 made a major design flaws by introducing many sudden death mechanics that has very little to do with the boss battle itself, player interest slided as the result. By the time wing 7 simplefied its platforming in its first two bosses, the game's declining playerbase can no longer sustain squad based hardcore contents.

    Oh, i am not saying there weren't other, very good reasons for a drop in raid popularity (difficulty spike from wing 4 to wing 5 alone was probably responsible for a lot, for example). It's just a question of whether rewards had any impact on raid population size or not. And about the consequences the answer to that question would bring.

    The whole point of a social game is to play with the people you want to play with, not be forced to play with the people you don't.

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭
    Raids have problems, but we need a better solution

    @Astralporing.1957 said:
    Since they do not compete for the slot, it doesn't matter.

    Actually it does matter, because they are all trinkets and the addition of Vision before POF Raids even launched was a clear indicator of the future. And to no surprise, they kept adding legendary trinkets outside of raiding. Since they are all trinkets it doesn't matter. They started releasing legendary trinkets before Raids got their own trinket, this did set a precedent about future legendaries. IT's not like they didn't release ANY legendary trinket, they released multiple ones before they got to that ring. Why would anyone expect to release a Ring first and then others? But the damage was still done. You'd have a point if there were no legendary trinkets released until we got the Ring. But that's not what happened. It wasn't the Raid Ring that postponed the release of other legendary Rings, but the release of other legendary trinkets.

    which i am not saying it wasn't - whole armor set was definitely a way more desirable reward than a single ring

    Yes Armor set is much more desirable reward than a single legendary trinket

    it just means that the popularity of HoT wings you often bring up was way overinflated due to the armor. That many players that went in there did it for the armor alone, and not for the content.

    Isn't that why players play in the Open World meta events where they can blindly get their rewards while not participating? Isn't that why Auric Basin and Istan used to be so popular but now they aren't as popular? You are telling me players go to Drizzlewood and Dragonfall "for the content" and if their rewards are nerfed (like with Auric Basin/ Istan) players would still go there because they love the content? Past "casual majority" activity tells us that they don't go to content they like, but content that provides the maximum rewards for the least effort. That's what the so called majority in this game is after, content to leech.

    So your argument about inflated Raid popularity due to the legendary armor can be applied to the Open World as the primary (if not the only) reason the majority goes there to play. And the past is very clear indicator of that.

  • Vilin.8056Vilin.8056 Member ✭✭✭
    edited April 14, 2021
    Raids are fine the way they are, combining bosses of various difficulties

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @Vilin.8056 said:

    @Astralporing.1957 said:
    Also, again. If the change of the reward system between HoT and PoF wings had so significant impact to be responsible for the significant drop of population between those two wings (which i am not saying it wasn't - whole armor set was definitely a way more desirable reward than a single ring), it just means that the popularity of HoT wings you often bring up was way overinflated due to the armor. That many players that went in there did it for the armor alone, and not for the content.

    The armor has very little to do with it. Loot has never been the main focus for hardcore player to play hardcore contents in the first place.

    That's part of the point, isn't it? Whether the legendary armor was good enough of a reward to bring in players that were not interested in the content (and how many of those). So, how many people ended up playing raids that were not "hardcore players focusing on hardcore content".

    First question you should ask, is why would a casual player base that has no interest in hardcore contents be the solution of saving hardcore contents in the first place?

    Notice, by the way, that both answer to my "if" question have consequences. If the reward system had significant impact on player population in raids, then the original participation numbers cannot be really used as arguments for raid popularity (because we can't be sure then what part of those numbers was due to the rewards popularity and was not tied to the content itself). If the rewards however had no visible impact on participation numbers at all, then we can't claim that having alternate methods of acquisition for those would have been a bad idea.

    And secondly your "IF" is no longer a relevant point because you did not account in declining player interest/population in this game as a whole. Anet has constantly been nerfing down difficulties in obtaining rewards throughout the years and all it resulted is nothing but a wrecked economy and lots of bored players who made more gold AFK farming than playing anything else. Why would Anet spend further resources just to repeat the same mistakes and further damages they made in open world onto instanced contents? At the same time invite more opportunities with BOTs into farming nerfed Raid like how they messed up PvP? (remember Diablo 2?)

    Most PUG raid pattern tends to skip boss fights with unforgiving platforming elements. Which is the same reason why wing 1 Sabetha, wing 3 Xera (and before the introduction of Healbrand & Heal Scourge, Wing 2 Sloth) remain some of the least participated PUG raids today.

    POF raids tends to include heavier jump puzzle elements than HOT raids, especially with Wing 5 made a major design flaws by introducing many sudden death mechanics that has very little to do with the boss battle itself, player interest slided as the result. By the time wing 7 simplefied its platforming in its first two bosses, the game's declining playerbase can no longer sustain squad based hardcore contents.

    Oh, i am not saying there weren't other, very good reasons for a drop in raid popularity (difficulty spike from wing 4 to wing 5 alone was probably responsible for a lot, for example). It's just a question of whether rewards had any impact on raid population size or not. And about the consequences the answer to that question would bring.

    Even if it does the impact wouldn't have sustained, to sustain instanced content it needs a community who are willing repeat the content, make communication with other players and inspire each other in the process (which is unlikely to happen if the contents takes no effort to accomplish). This is what makes online co-ops more enticing than most open world single player games on the market. The least thing we need is another mute who only joins the group for a one time grab.

  • Astralporing.1957Astralporing.1957 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited April 14, 2021
    We need an easy mode, but not a hard mode

    @Vilin.8056 said:
    First question you should ask, is why would a casual player base that has no interest in hardcore contents be the solution of saving hardcore contents in the first place?

    Well, if the hardcore community could save itself, it obviously would have done that already. There's no need to open doors more widely for hardcores - they already can go right in easily. And they are already there - so, they are not the players you talk about when considering increasing raid population.
    Basically, casuals are the only source of more players that raids can still use to increase its population. I mean, it could theoretically try to aim at completely different groups of hardcores, but both WvW modes also happen to have population problems of their own.

    So, the real question is different: it is "should we try to save that hardcore content at all".

    And secondly your "IF" is no longer a relevant point because you did not account in declining player interest/population in this game as a whole. Anet has constantly been nerfing down difficulties in obtaining rewards throughout the years and all it resulted is nothing but a wrecked economy and lots of bored players who made more gold AFK farming than playing anything else. Why would Anet spend further resources just to repeat the same mistakes and further damages they made in open world onto instanced contents? At the same time invite more opportunities with BOTs into farming nerfed Raid like how they messed up PvP? (remember Diablo 2?)

    Well, they don't have to, obviously. As i mentioned above, the alternative indeed is to leave raids abandoned and just forget about them. That's actually something that is more likely to happen. If you think that's better than the alternatives, sure, have it your way.

    Oh, i am not saying there weren't other, very good reasons for a drop in raid popularity (difficulty spike from wing 4 to wing 5 alone was probably responsible for a lot, for example). It's just a question of whether rewards had any impact on raid population size or not. And about the consequences the answer to that question would bring.

    Even if it does the impact wouldn't have sustained, to sustain instanced content it needs a community who are willing repeat the content, make communication with other players and inspire each other in the process (which is unlikely to happen if the contents takes no effort to accomplish). This is what makes online co-ops more enticing than most open world single player games on the market. The least thing we need is another mute who only joins the group for a one time grab.

    Well, in that case i guess there's nothing that can be done, and we can just forget about this part of the game ever getting anything new again. Also, if so, what's the point of having the reward meant to pull people in, if it pulls the wrong kind of people? Wouldn't it be better to have it somewhere else instead, then?

    The whole point of a social game is to play with the people you want to play with, not be forced to play with the people you don't.

  • Astralporing.1957Astralporing.1957 Member ✭✭✭✭
    We need an easy mode, but not a hard mode

    @maddoctor.2738 said:
    So your argument about inflated Raid popularity due to the legendary armor can be applied to the Open World as the primary (if not the only) reason the majority goes there to play. And the past is very clear indicator of that.

    Yes, it can be applied to OW as well, obviously. Notice though, that Anet has absolutely no problem nerfing OW rewards into the ground if they feel some place gets too much attention due to rewards.
    Notice also, that many of those OW achievements you brought up as comparison to raid wing popularity had no such reward farm attached to them at all. So, again, apples and oranges.

    (also, i don't agree with your thinking that different-slot trinkets are exchangeable, but let's leave it at that. We're unlikely to persuade each another about the issue)

    The whole point of a social game is to play with the people you want to play with, not be forced to play with the people you don't.

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭
    Raids have problems, but we need a better solution

    @Astralporing.1957 said:
    So, again, apples and oranges

    Well you are the one who said HOT Raid popularity was inflated due to the legendary armor. Open World popularity is inflated by the gold/liquid rewards that allow players to buy anything they want from the gem store. Something Raids really lack by comparison. If you want gem store items, you farm the open world metas which really increases their popularity no?

    Of course Arenanet nerfs OW rewards, especially when they want their next content to become more popular. They nerf the old to lead the players to the new, because they know the so called majority isn't gonna go to the new area just because it's more "fun" or "enjoyable". They don't play what is fun, but what is rewarding, that has been true since the very beginning. Which was the counter point to your argument about Raid popularity being inflated by legendary armor in the first place, as if the Open World popularity isn't also inflated by the liquid/gold rewards it offers. Remove those and you get dead content, meanwhile Raids are still being run to this day, even after those running them have multiple sets, or even run them multiple times in a week, even though their rewards are trash in repeat kills.

    There are players that run content because they enjoy content (those who like the more niche content), and there are players who repeat content that is the most rewarding for the least effort (the so called "majority")

  • Astralporing.1957Astralporing.1957 Member ✭✭✭✭
    We need an easy mode, but not a hard mode

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Astralporing.1957 said:
    So, again, apples and oranges

    Well you are the one who said HOT Raid popularity was inflated due to the legendary armor.

    You might want to reread what i said and in response to whom.

    The whole point of a social game is to play with the people you want to play with, not be forced to play with the people you don't.

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭
    Raids have problems, but we need a better solution

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Astralporing.1957 said:
    So, again, apples and oranges

    Well you are the one who said HOT Raid popularity was inflated due to the legendary armor.

    You might want to reread what i said and in response to whom.

    But you did bring up HOT Raid popularity in regards to their rewards:

    Also, again. If the change of the reward system between HoT and PoF wings had so significant impact to be responsible for the significant drop of population between those two wings (which i am not saying it wasn't - whole armor set was definitely a way more desirable reward than a single ring)

    Of course how significant it was is anyone's guess, but the reward difference did play an important role in the decline of POF Raids. Not alone, but certainly a contributing factor.

    And for the second part of the quote:

    it just means that the popularity of HoT wings you often bring up was way overinflated due to the armor. That many players that went in there did it for the armor alone, and not for the content.

    Yes. Popularity of HOT Wings was indeed inflated due to the Legendary Armor, the extend of it can be debated, but I do believe that the Legendary Armor did play a role in increasing HOT Raid popularity (and decreasing POF Raid popularity). But this also applies to literally every part of the game, as mass player participation in content that offers over-inflated rewards clearly tells us.

    Same here really:

    Also, if we assume that it was the reward difference between HoT and PoF raids (and not sometjing else) that was so important it caused downfall of PoF wings, then a question arises, whether first wings were indeed as popular as some raiders claim, or was it all due to legendary armor.

    Same question I can make about the popularity of Dragonfall, Drizzlewood, or any other content that the so called "majority" of this game plays. Are they indeed more popular than Raids, in terms of players going there because they enjoy them, or they go there to earn gold to buy gems and then get gem store items?
    And yes to repeat it once more, the reward difference did play an important role in the decline of POF Raids compared to HOT Raids. But of course it wasn't the only contributing factor.

  • Vilin.8056Vilin.8056 Member ✭✭✭
    edited April 14, 2021
    Raids are fine the way they are, combining bosses of various difficulties

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @Vilin.8056 said:
    First question you should ask, is why would a casual player base that has no interest in hardcore contents be the solution of saving hardcore contents in the first place?

    Well, if the hardcore community could save itself, it obviously would have done that already. There's no need to open doors more widely for hardcores - they already can go right in easily. And they are already there - so, they are not the players you talk about when considering increasing raid population.
    Basically, casuals are the only source of more players that raids can still use to increase its population. I mean, it could theoretically try to aim at completely different groups of hardcores, but both WvW modes also happen to have population problems of their own.

    So, the real question is different: it is "should we try to save that hardcore content at all".

    You did not consider the question thoroughly.
    By turning one hardcore content into a casual one does not save it as a hardcore content, because it will no longer be a hardcore content. If anything it "saved" at all are still the casual players which the content never intended to.

    And secondly your "IF" is no longer a relevant point because you did not account in declining player interest/population in this game as a whole. Anet has constantly been nerfing down difficulties in obtaining rewards throughout the years and all it resulted is nothing but a wrecked economy and lots of bored players who made more gold AFK farming than playing anything else. Why would Anet spend further resources just to repeat the same mistakes and further damages they made in open world onto instanced contents? At the same time invite more opportunities with BOTs into farming nerfed Raid like how they messed up PvP? (remember Diablo 2?)

    Well, they don't have to, obviously. As i mentioned above, the alternative indeed is to leave raids abandoned and just forget about them. That's actually something that is more likely to happen. If you think that's better than the alternatives, sure, have it your way.

    Oh, i am not saying there weren't other, very good reasons for a drop in raid popularity (difficulty spike from wing 4 to wing 5 alone was probably responsible for a lot, for example). It's just a question of whether rewards had any impact on raid population size or not. And about the consequences the answer to that question would bring.

    Even if it does the impact wouldn't have sustained, to sustain instanced content it needs a community who are willing repeat the content, make communication with other players and inspire each other in the process (which is unlikely to happen if the contents takes no effort to accomplish). This is what makes online co-ops more enticing than most open world single player games on the market. The least thing we need is another mute who only joins the group for a one time grab.

    Well, in that case i guess there's nothing that can be done, and we can just forget about this part of the game ever getting anything new again. Also, if so, what's the point of having the reward meant to pull people in, if it pulls the wrong kind of people? Wouldn't it be better to have it somewhere else instead, then?

    Considering the rate players are abandoning this game, what's more likely to happen is that we are going to see more abandoned contents game wide, both hardcore that are too steep to follow for casual players and casual content that continuously to bore the majority of the population. GW2 is in dire need of quality contents to bridge the gaps instead of altering one side in favor of the other, but that's the developer's decision.
    As players all we do to support this game and its community is by providing knowledge, training and encouragement for existing players who has trouble over contents. The vast majority of casual players are equally frustrated over casual contents and not just raids. A player making 0.3k DPS respawning a dozen times to bypass a story boss in a living story is hardly a decent gaming experience, it is something that needs to be fixed game-wide and not just one specific group of content.

  • Astralporing.1957Astralporing.1957 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited April 14, 2021
    We need an easy mode, but not a hard mode

    @Vilin.8056 said:

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @Vilin.8056 said:
    First question you should ask, is why would a casual player base that has no interest in hardcore contents be the solution of saving hardcore contents in the first place?

    Well, if the hardcore community could save itself, it obviously would have done that already. There's no need to open doors more widely for hardcores - they already can go right in easily. And they are already there - so, they are not the players you talk about when considering increasing raid population.
    Basically, casuals are the only source of more players that raids can still use to increase its population. I mean, it could theoretically try to aim at completely different groups of hardcores, but both WvW modes also happen to have population problems of their own.

    So, the real question is different: it is "should we try to save that hardcore content at all".

    You did not consider the question thoroughly.
    By turning one hardcore content into a casual one does not save it as a hardcore content, because it will no longer be a hardcore content.

    No. The one that did not consider it thoroughly is not me. We were talking about adding easy mode. Not adjusting difficulty of normal mode down. Adding easy mode would not suddenly "contaminate" normal mode to no longer be a hardcore content. That's quite absurd.

    If anything it "saved" at all are still the casual players which the content never intended to.

    Nah. It's the raids that are currently abandoned by devs. Leaving matters as they are is only to the hardcore players detriment, because they will simply never get more of raid content for them in that case. They may probably see a fractal on a few in the future, but it's way more likely that devs will just go the DRM way.
    So, if you think that DRMs are satisfying enough for hardcores, then sure, ignoring raids from now on is also a "solution".

    Considering the rate players are abandoning this game, what's more likely to happen is that we are going to see more abandoned contents game wide, both hardcore that are too steep to follow for casual players and casual content that continuously to bore the majority of the population.

    So, what you're saying is that there's no point in trying to save raids at all, because the whole game is going down anyway? That's way too doom-and-gloom talking even for a pessimist like me. I prefer to think that it's not yet too late to attempt changes that may improve things.

    GW2 is in dire need of quality contents to bridge the gaps instead of altering one side in favor of the other, but that's the developer's decision.

    The massive gap between casual and hardcore that exists due to mechanics devs decided on in the beginning of the game makes that practically impossible. If you think that you can bring significant number of players across that gap, now that is miracle talking.
    I addressed that in another thread.

    As players all we do to support this game and its community is by providing knowledge, training and encouragement for existing players who has trouble over contents. The vast majority of casual players are equally frustrated over casual contents and not just raids. A player making 0.3k DPS respawning a dozen times to bypass a story boss in a living story is hardly a decent gaming experience, it is something that needs to be fixed game-wide and not just one specific group of content.

    Yes, but the reason behind the massive gap that exists between casual and hardcore is so deeply baked in the game systems that i do not believe it can get changed by this point. It would require changes so massive we'd probably be better off talking about GW3 at this point.

    The whole point of a social game is to play with the people you want to play with, not be forced to play with the people you don't.

  • Vilin.8056Vilin.8056 Member ✭✭✭
    edited April 14, 2021
    Raids are fine the way they are, combining bosses of various difficulties

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @Vilin.8056 said:

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @Vilin.8056 said:
    First question you should ask, is why would a casual player base that has no interest in hardcore contents be the solution of saving hardcore contents in the first place?

    Well, if the hardcore community could save itself, it obviously would have done that already. There's no need to open doors more widely for hardcores - they already can go right in easily. And they are already there - so, they are not the players you talk about when considering increasing raid population.
    Basically, casuals are the only source of more players that raids can still use to increase its population. I mean, it could theoretically try to aim at completely different groups of hardcores, but both WvW modes also happen to have population problems of their own.

    So, the real question is different: it is "should we try to save that hardcore content at all".

    You did not consider the question thoroughly.
    By turning one hardcore content into a casual one does not save it as a hardcore content, because it will no longer be a hardcore content.

    No. The one that did not consider it thoroughly is not me. We were talking about adding easy mode. Not adjusting difficulty of normal mode down. Adding easy mode would not suddenly "contaminate" normal mode to no longer be a hardcore content. That's quite absurd.

    Easy mode is still a casual content, it doesn't do anything to increase the participation in normal raid or hardcore community.

    If anything it "saved" at all are still the casual players which the content never intended to.

    Nah. It's the raids that are currently abandoned by devs. Leaving matters as they are is only to the hardcore players detriment, because they will simply never get more of raid content for them in that case. They may probably see a fractal on a few in the future, but it's way more likely that devs will just go the DRM way.
    So, if you think that DRMs are satisfying enough for hardcores, then sure, ignoring raids from now on is also a "solution".

    Which bring back the original question, why would a casual mode attract hardcore players at all? Neither is it a solution.

    Considering the rate players are abandoning this game, what's more likely to happen is that we are going to see more abandoned contents game wide, both hardcore that are too steep to follow for casual players and casual content that continuously to bore the majority of the population.

    So, what you're saying is that there's no point in trying to save raids at all, because the whole game is going down anyway? That's way too doom-and-gloom talking even for a pessimist like me. I prefer to think that it's not yet too late to attempt changes that may improve things.

    The root issue is a decline of player base across the whole game. Hardcore content such as raid will always be more vulnerable on the impact but they are not the cause.

    When 80% of the player base abandon this game in the midst of story mode, that's far before they ever get to reach any types of hardcore contents. If anything the developers need to focus on are these vast majority of players who don't even appreciate Anet's current offerings casual contents. A mere estimate of 3~5% of veteran casual players who grudges over legendary armor is too niche to be of any improvement.

    GW2 is in dire need of quality contents to bridge the gaps instead of altering one side in favor of the other, but that's the developer's decision.

    The massive gap between casual and hardcore that exists due to mechanics devs decided on in the beginning of the game makes that practically impossible. If you think that you can bring significant number of players across that gap, now that is miracle talking.
    I addressed that in another thread.

    Your address is irrelevant at this point really, they are more about personal interest(likely your own) in general.
    It's hardly a new story that the fall of another popular MMO due to developer's inability to allocate resources to sustain an eco system between hardcore and casual players. If that is miracle talking, then so is the future of this game.

    As players all we do to support this game and its community is by providing knowledge, training and encouragement for existing players who has trouble over contents. The vast majority of casual players are equally frustrated over casual contents and not just raids. A player making 0.3k DPS respawning a dozen times to bypass a story boss in a living story is hardly a decent gaming experience, it is something that needs to be fixed game-wide and not just one specific group of content.

    Yes, but the reason behind the massive gap that exists between casual and hardcore is so deeply baked in the game systems that i do not believe it can get changed by this point. It would require changes so massive we'd probably be better off talking about GW3 at this point.

    Perhaps, but it's worth mentioning that classic GW2 handled this better, but this another topic of a long discussion that is irrelevant at this point.

  • mindcircus.1506mindcircus.1506 Member ✭✭✭✭
    Raids are fine the way they are, combining bosses of various difficulties

    @Vilin.8056 said:
    When 80% of the player base abandon this game in the midst of story mode, that's far before they ever get to reach any types of hardcore contents. If anything the developers need to focus on are these vast majority of players who don't even appreciate Anet's current offerings casual contents. A mere estimate of 3~5% of veteran casual players who grudges over legendary armor is too niche to be of any improvement.

    Out of curiosity, where did you get these numbers?
    Is there a source or is this just FYA?

    "We recognize that some players are not able to complete all content." Gaile Gray 01.10.19

  • Nihil.9817Nihil.9817 Member ✭✭
    We need a hard mode, but not an easy mode

    the game should be designed around my inability to play it, not someone else's ability to play around the game, i dont want to learn rotations or mechanics i want to get loot > : (

  • Astralporing.1957Astralporing.1957 Member ✭✭✭✭
    We need an easy mode, but not a hard mode

    @Vilin.8056 said:

    @Astralporing.1957 said:
    No. The one that did not consider it thoroughly is not me. We were talking about adding easy mode. Not adjusting difficulty of normal mode down. Adding easy mode would not suddenly "contaminate" normal mode to no longer be a hardcore content. That's quite absurd.

    Easy mode is still a casual content, it doesn't do anything to increase the participation in normal raid or hardcore community.

    At this point the only thing that could increase participation in actual "normal" raids is making them easier. I'm quite sure you don't want that. So, barring that, what you can aim for is to increase the amount of resources devs might be willing to put into that content. And the only way it can happen now is for casuals to share their resources with raiders (because raiders currently have zero resources allocated, and won't get more on their own). Notice, that it's unlikely to happen unless casuals will get something they want from that exchange as well.

    If anything it "saved" at all are still the casual players which the content never intended to.

    Nah. It's the raids that are currently abandoned by devs. Leaving matters as they are is only to the hardcore players detriment, because they will simply never get more of raid content for them in that case. They may probably see a fractal on a few in the future, but it's way more likely that devs will just go the DRM way.
    So, if you think that DRMs are satisfying enough for hardcores, then sure, ignoring raids from now on is also a "solution".

    Which bring back the original question, why would a casual mode attract hardcore players at all? Neither is it a solution.

    See above. Casual mode would not attract hardcore players at all. What might attract hardcore players is having devs spare some resources on hardcore mode. Unfortunately for raiders, as devs said, it would be hard to justify that on the basis of raid community alone. So, the only way devs might justify that is if those resources came from the share meant for casual players. Again, that means casual players would need to get something back. Something they would really want.

    The root issue is a decline of player base across the whole game. Hardcore content such as raid will always be more vulnerable on the impact but they are not the cause.

    What does that have anything to do with what i was saying? It's not a question of blame. It is a question whether raiders want some non-zero resources for them or not. And if they do, how they can get it (and what they would be willing to "pay" for it, because at this point they won't get it for free).

    When 80% of the player base abandon this game in the midst of story mode, that's far before they ever get to reach any types of hardcore contents. If anything the developers need to focus on are these vast majority of players who don't even appreciate Anet's current offerings casual contents. A mere estimate of 3~5% of veteran casual players who grudges over legendary armor is too niche to be of any improvement.

    Well, duh. Then there's nothing to be done for raids, they will stay abandoned.

    You seem to be under misconception that there's a significant number of players in this game that can be made into hardcores and directed into hardcore content, that, if it gets shown the way, will, by their arrival save raids with sudden population upsurge. Unfortunately for raids, that pool of players has already been tapped. There may be some of them left, but not enough to matter.
    The road to raids is not really hard. Practically anyone willing to follow it will end up there. If someone didn't get that far yet, it's not because they haven;t noticed it. It's because either the road is too hard for them to traverse, or because they have no interest in the direction it is going toward. And none of those two things are likely to change for them.

    Yes, but the reason behind the massive gap that exists between casual and hardcore is so deeply baked in the game systems that i do not believe it can get changed by this point. It would require changes so massive we'd probably be better off talking about GW3 at this point.

    Perhaps, but it's worth mentioning that classic GW2 handled this better

    It depends on how you look at it. Everything was just balanced around a much lower level. There simply wasn't anything to showcase how big the differences were. You could see the differences only by how fast different people could do the content, but there simply was no content with actual higher-skill requirements.

    So, in a way, classic GW2 did it "better" because it did content for one group of players (casuals) with slight variations in difficulty. The problems started to be more visible after devs started doing things meant for hardcores too.

    So, if you think that removing raids and cutting down on stuff like Fractal CMs will result in a better ecosystem, i will have to agree. You will just have to remember that it won't be an ecosystem with a place for hardcore players.

    The whole point of a social game is to play with the people you want to play with, not be forced to play with the people you don't.

  • Vilin.8056Vilin.8056 Member ✭✭✭
    edited April 15, 2021
    Raids are fine the way they are, combining bosses of various difficulties

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @Vilin.8056 said:

    @Astralporing.1957 said:
    No. The one that did not consider it thoroughly is not me. We were talking about adding easy mode. Not adjusting difficulty of normal mode down. Adding easy mode would not suddenly "contaminate" normal mode to no longer be a hardcore content. That's quite absurd.

    Easy mode is still a casual content, it doesn't do anything to increase the participation in normal raid or hardcore community.

    At this point the only thing that could increase participation in actual "normal" raids is making them easier. I'm quite sure you don't want that. So, barring that, what you can aim for is to increase the amount of resources devs might be willing to put into that content. And the only way it can happen now is for casuals to share their resources with raiders (because raiders currently have zero resources allocated, and won't get more on their own). Notice, that it's unlikely to happen unless casuals will get something they want from that exchange as well.

    It isn't a matter about what I want or what I don't want. It is about what works. Turning hardcore contents into casual content does not promote hardcore content in anyway, it only changes its nature. GW2 already have a long list of abandoned boss fights in its casual contents, your suggestion merely increase that roaster.

    If anything it "saved" at all are still the casual players which the content never intended to.

    Nah. It's the raids that are currently abandoned by devs. Leaving matters as they are is only to the hardcore players detriment, because they will simply never get more of raid content for them in that case. They may probably see a fractal on a few in the future, but it's way more likely that devs will just go the DRM way.
    So, if you think that DRMs are satisfying enough for hardcores, then sure, ignoring raids from now on is also a "solution".

    Which bring back the original question, why would a casual mode attract hardcore players at all? Neither is it a solution.

    See above. Casual mode would not attract hardcore players at all. What might attract hardcore players is having devs spare some resources on hardcore mode. Unfortunately for raiders, as devs said, it would be hard to justify that on the basis of raid community alone. So, the only way devs might justify that is if those resources came from the share meant for casual players. Again, that means casual players would need to get something back. Something they would really want.

    There is so many wrongs in that perception.
    First the casual community isn't just one group of players. They are various groups of players of very diverted interest. You may be really wanting a set of legendary armor but that doesn't mean that represent a majority of the community.
    Second you ask developers to invest their resources towards making raids that don't attract the raiders, yet expect it to be a hit among a community that generally hate raid. That's going the opposite interest of everybody.
    Third nobody's entitled for what share of resources, games aren't developed that way.

    The root issue is a decline of player base across the whole game. Hardcore content such as raid will always be more vulnerable on the impact but they are not the cause.

    What does that have anything to do with what i was saying? It's not a question of blame. It is a question whether raiders want some non-zero resources for them or not. And if they do, how they can get it (and what they would be willing to "pay" for it, because at this point they won't get it for free).

    The question can be asked both ways, why would any active players stick with this game if future content no longer entice them to stay? The declining player base has made it clear. How Anet made their choices in the upcoming EoD remains to be seen, but with Diablo 4 on the horizon with a promise of open world approach, it isn't really the players' life on the line here.

    When 80% of the player base abandon this game in the midst of story mode, that's far before they ever get to reach any types of hardcore contents. If anything the developers need to focus on are these vast majority of players who don't even appreciate Anet's current offerings casual contents. A mere estimate of 3~5% of veteran casual players who grudges over legendary armor is too niche to be of any improvement.

    Well, duh. Then there's nothing to be done for raids, they will stay abandoned.

    You seem to be under misconception that there's a significant number of players in this game that can be made into hardcores and directed into hardcore content, that, if it gets shown the way, will, by their arrival save raids with sudden population upsurge. Unfortunately for raids, that pool of players has already been tapped. There may be some of them left, but not enough to matter.

    As said, declining player base as the root of the issue.

    The road to raids is not really hard. Practically anyone willing to follow it will end up there. If someone didn't get that far yet, it's not because they haven;t noticed it. It's because either the road is too hard for them to traverse, or because they have no interest in the direction it is going toward. And none of those two things are likely to change for them.

    Which is why building a gaming oriented community is essential for a thriving MMO. Communication inspires motivation.

    Yes, but the reason behind the massive gap that exists between casual and hardcore is so deeply baked in the game systems that i do not believe it can get changed by this point. It would require changes so massive we'd probably be better off talking about GW3 at this point.

    Perhaps, but it's worth mentioning that classic GW2 handled this better

    It depends on how you look at it. Everything was just balanced around a much lower level. There simply wasn't anything to showcase how big the differences were. You could see the differences only by how fast different people could do the content, but there simply was no content with actual higher-skill requirements.

    So, in a way, classic GW2 did it "better" because it did content for one group of players (casuals) with slight variations in difficulty. The problems started to be more visible after devs started doing things meant for hardcores too.
    So, if you think that removing raids and cutting down on stuff like Fractal CMs will result in a better ecosystem, i will have to agree. You will just have to remember that it won't be an ecosystem with a place for hardcore players.

    That's your perception from a casual player's point of view. I don't agree but also won't make further comment on that as it is irrelevant to the topic. But it is undeniable that we had a more thriving hardcore player base back then.

  • Astralporing.1957Astralporing.1957 Member ✭✭✭✭
    We need an easy mode, but not a hard mode

    @Vilin.8056 said:
    It isn't a matter about what I want or what I don't want. It is about what works. Turning hardcore contents into casual content does not promote hardcore content in anyway, it only changes its nature.

    Again that argument. Nowhere we were talking about turning hardcore content into a casual one. Like it has been pointed out many times over, creating easy mode does not "contaminate" normal mode to become more casual. Just like the fact that children can kick ball around on a nearby field does not turn world football championships into a kid game.

    First the casual community isn't just one group of players. They are various groups of players of very diverted interest. You may be really wanting a set of legendary armor but that doesn't mean that represent a majority of the community.

    Possibly.

    Second you ask developers to invest their resources towards making raids that don't attract the raiders, yet expect it to be a hit among a community that generally hate raid.

    Well, because that would be easy mode. It's the normal mode that doesn't attract the players as things stand now.

    That's going the opposite interest of everybody.

    So, leaving raids as they are - abandoned, is in interest of everybody then?

    Third nobody's entitled for what share of resources, games aren't developed that way.

    Sure. But as things are, raiders get no share for themselves. And since raider community is not getting any bigger, that won't change. At the other hand, devs keep doing things for casuals, which suggests they still do consider it worth their effort.
    So, it's either zero resources, or getting those resources from the part of community that still has them. I guess you prefer the first option, though.

    You seem to be under misconception that there's a significant number of players in this game that can be made into hardcores and directed into hardcore content, that, if it gets shown the way, will, by their arrival save raids with sudden population upsurge. Unfortunately for raids, that pool of players has already been tapped. There may be some of them left, but not enough to matter.

    As said, declining player base as the root of the issue.

    So, the game is dead, and we can all go home, then? That's all you arguments seem to devolve into - playerbase is declining, so it's not worth trying to improve anything because it won't work anyway.

    The road to raids is not really hard. Practically anyone willing to follow it will end up there. If someone didn't get that far yet, it's not because they haven;t noticed it. It's because either the road is too hard for them to traverse, or because they have no interest in the direction it is going toward. And none of those two things are likely to change for them.

    Which is why building a gaming oriented community is essential for a thriving MMO. Communication inspires motivation.

    It's not about lack of motivation. It's about liking different things. You won't "motivate" players that dislike raids to sudenly start liking them.

    That's your perception from a casual player's point of view. I don't agree but also won't make further comment on that as it is irrelevant to the topic. But it is undeniable that we had a more thriving hardcore player base back then.

    Sure, because those hardcore players then expected less from "hardcore" content the game had. Introduction of raids increased the appetite of said group, though, and, once it happened, it can never be reversed. Once hardcore players received more, they would never again be satisfied with less.
    Unfortunately, due to the massive differences in potential content levels that are inherent to the game, the content those players received (and expected to get fom that point forward) was too far apart from the content the rest of the players enjoyed. That meant Anet could no longer develop the same content for a wider group of players - they had to start developing chunks of content for far more narrow bands of the community. And they just didn't have resources for that. Additionally, it meant greater fragmentation and stratification of the community, which means the content for each of those bands, to be sustainable in the terms of populations, required a greater overall population than before.

    Edit:
    i'll try to present to you a (very) simplified example of what's going on. Notice, that it's very crude and is not meant to represent the game too precisely - only to convey the basic ideas at the root of the problem.

    Let's say that player effectiveness potential (based on skill and game understanding) goes from 1 to 10 (we won't concern ourselves with players so bad they rate at fractionals below 1)
    The way the game is designed means, that there's practically no players around the "5" range. You go up to ~3-4 at most, and then you either assimilate enough understanding to jump straight up to at least ~6-7, or you stay at the lower levels until you do (or forever). There's no gradual progression through those middle stages at all.
    Also (again, due to how the game was designed), the game itself cannot guide nor help you to cross that gap.

    You can try to play a content that is a level (max two) above your own, but you will have a lot of problems with that (especially at +2 difficulty). That ignores the possibility of you getting carried, of course - but even then too wide gap means someone "carries" your dead body.

    In case of some OW content, it's also possible to deal with higher difficulty levels by just throwing more bodies at it. This is usually not possible with instanced content (unless, for example, enemy hp does not reset even afer you wipe)

    So, the core game had OW/story content aimed at level 1-2 (the occasional harder events like tequatl had their difficulty buffed up not through demanding more from individual players, but from having to organize large groups of them. if you still include them they would be level 3-4 at most). It also had instanced content at levels 2-4 (with higher fractals reaching maaaaybe to low 5).

    Raids In that picture are around 7-8, with occasional encounters at 6. There's still untapped potential above even the hardest encounter currently existing in the game.

    Notice the problem? All the content before was still reachable (even if sometimes only barely) by those that didn't make the "jump" through the middle stages yet. Raids however require you to be firmly on the other side. Once that other side has been opened, those that were able to transit through the gap and liked what was on the other side would no longer be satisfied with the "easy" content at below the gap. At the same time for everyone else the gap was simply too high.

    The community that up until that point was still able to mingle at least partially was suddenly separated by a ravine.

    This split has affected not only the community itself, but the developer resources as well. A content that is made for the hardcores has next to no chance of other players of ever enjoying it. A content that is made for casuals - even at the higher reaches of difficulty - will no longer satisfy hardcores that now know how far from their abilities that content is. And there's no point in making a content in-between those extremes, because there's next to no players in that range. It's like developing two different games for two completely separate groups of people.

    The whole point of a social game is to play with the people you want to play with, not be forced to play with the people you don't.

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited April 15, 2021
    Raids are fine the way they are, combining bosses of various difficulties

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @Vilin.8056 said:
    Second you ask developers to invest their resources towards making raids that don't attract the raiders, yet expect it to be a hit among a community that generally hate raid.

    Well, because that would be easy mode. It's the normal mode that doesn't attract the players as things stand now.

    That didn't work for strikes. Maybe it might work for easy mode raids IF legendary armor is made available to players that way. Which in turn again just would be reward related and not actual content related.

    If there is to be legendary armor via other PvE means, I personally would rather have it implemented some where else instead of bastardizing raids.

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @Vilin.8056 said:
    That's going the opposite interest of everybody.

    So, leaving raids as they are - abandoned, is in interest of everybody then?

    Third nobody's entitled for what share of resources, games aren't developed that way.

    Sure. But as things are, raiders get no share for themselves. And since raider community is not getting any bigger, that won't change. At the other hand, devs keep doing things for casuals, which suggests they still do consider it worth their effort.
    So, it's either zero resources, or getting those resources from the part of community that still has them. I guess you prefer the first option, though.

    From a current stand point and our knowledge as players, yes. Since we do not know what EoD will bring, let's wait and see shall we? If there is continued lack of challenging content and this is by design for EoD, it might very well be in the interested of the game to drop raids and challenging content all together.

    Again a completely separate system for legendary armor, since that seem most players only focus when asking for easy mode raids in this thread, in PvE might be better.

  • Astralporing.1957Astralporing.1957 Member ✭✭✭✭
    We need an easy mode, but not a hard mode

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @Vilin.8056 said:
    Second you ask developers to invest their resources towards making raids that don't attract the raiders, yet expect it to be a hit among a community that generally hate raid.

    Well, because that would be easy mode. It's the normal mode that doesn't attract the players as things stand now.

    That didn't work for strikes. Maybe it might work for easy mode raids IF legendary armor is made available to players that way. Which in turn again just would be reward related and not actual content related.

    If there is to be legendary armor via other PvE means, I personally would rather have it implemented some where else instead of bastardizing raids.

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @Vilin.8056 said:
    That's going the opposite interest of everybody.

    So, leaving raids as they are - abandoned, is in interest of everybody then?

    Third nobody's entitled for what share of resources, games aren't developed that way.

    Sure. But as things are, raiders get no share for themselves. And since raider community is not getting any bigger, that won't change. At the other hand, devs keep doing things for casuals, which suggests they still do consider it worth their effort.
    So, it's either zero resources, or getting those resources from the part of community that still has them. I guess you prefer the first option, though.

    From a current stand point and our knowledge as players, yes. Since we do not know what EoD will bring, let's wait and see shall we? If there is continued lack of challenging content and this is by design for EoD, it might very well be in the interested of the game to drop raids and challenging content all together.

    Again a completely separate system for legendary armor, since that seem most players only focus when asking for easy mode raids in this thread, in PvE might be better.

    Fair enough. Personally, I'd prefer an alternate, OW/LS legendary armor set as well, to be honest.

    The whole point of a social game is to play with the people you want to play with, not be forced to play with the people you don't.

  • zealex.9410zealex.9410 Member ✭✭✭✭
    Raids are fine the way they are, combining bosses of various difficulties

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @Vilin.8056 said:
    The problem with easy mode is that people who don't raid will either only do it once for the story, or wouldn't bother with it at all.

    FF XIV example shows that it's not really true. You just need to do that content right.

    Strike Missions has already proven such concept has failed at the casual level.

    Then perhaps we should try to think why they failed.

    Furthermore, given the overall cost and effort to craft an legendary armor, the stat swapping feature isn't practical for players who doesn't care about WvW nor raiding in the first place. Only a very niche amount of players would appreciate this alteration and would probably ends up grudging for the many extra efforts required for not playing regular raids.

    In many ways it's not about actually pursuing the armor. It's about the feeling of exclusion. I know a number of players for whom it was an issue, even though (due to financial constraints) they never planned to actually make a set. What bothered them was that they weren't offered a choice. That Anet devs when introducing the armor, seemingly have forgotten about them. Or, worse, it's not that they've forgotten - they simply didn't care.

    It's similar for me - i already got the whole envoy package, so theoretically the issue doesn't really affect me anymore, but i still have a problem with it, for that exact reason. I still feel as if this decision to place the only legendary armor set for PvE players beyond reach of most of them was a sign of how devs actually didn't give a kitten about the majority of their players. And it didn't even pay off, because the group they wanted to pander to turned out to be too small, and thus they ended up abandoning raid content anyway.

    If anything ff14 has less modes not more, if we go by what ff14 does we should keep pushing out strikes with cms and increase the gap between cm and normal raids so each caters to its own demographic.

  • Astralporing.1957Astralporing.1957 Member ✭✭✭✭
    We need an easy mode, but not a hard mode

    @zealex.9410 said:

    If anything ff14 has less modes not more

    It's pretty much comparable, if you count those. the real difference is not in the number of types of instanced content/modes overall, but in how those are applied all over the content.

    if we go by what ff14 does we should keep pushing out strikes with cms and increase the gap between cm and normal raids so each caters to its own demographic.

    Yes, with the caveat that the increasing the gap would work both directions (co, CM for every encounter, but normal encounters made easier). Same with some strikes.
    And we'd also probably need to either reinstate dungeons, or rework fractals so the lowest tiers would also be designed to cater to its own demographics, and designed with longevity in mind (and not for pushing progress to higher tiers).
    Currently, fractal devs, when the deign to do the content at all, design it for the T4+CM crowd, with the lower tiers being an afterthought and not being considered as anything except transitional content. There's no active content for GW2 equivalent of FF XIV dungeon runners. Unless you count DRMs, but those are also not quite the same, and are also problematic in that they are built around specific collections. If you don't craft (wither for collections, or for sale), there's nothing DRMs can offer you. And they will become obsolete for even those that still run them as soon as people will be done with those collections.

    The whole point of a social game is to play with the people you want to play with, not be forced to play with the people you don't.

  • Sobx.1758Sobx.1758 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited April 17, 2021
    Raids are fine the way they are, combining bosses of various difficulties

    If raids need "easy/story mode" then they need to have at least slightly lowered rewards/droprate, no access to legendary armor and no access to achievements so there is a reason for the players to try improving by understanding game mechanics (instead of brute-forcing through it) and moving to regular raids at which point it will actually make a change in the raiding population.

    They can also have a single player story mode "for the people that just want to see the lore", but that doesn't seem like it's worth the time IF we're talking about actually influencing raids in any positive way.

  • zealex.9410zealex.9410 Member ✭✭✭✭
    Raids are fine the way they are, combining bosses of various difficulties

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @zealex.9410 said:

    If anything ff14 has less modes not more

    It's pretty much comparable, if you count those. the real difference is not in the number of types of instanced content/modes overall, but in how those are applied all over the content.

    if we go by what ff14 does we should keep pushing out strikes with cms and increase the gap between cm and normal raids so each caters to its own demographic.

    Yes, with the caveat that the increasing the gap would work both directions (co, CM for every encounter, but normal encounters made easier). Same with some strikes.

    Ye no complain i think no mater how hard you make cm ( ok not mythic wow a boss takes 300 pulls hard) ppl will learn to clear it so you dont need nm to be there to teach ppl, you rather want it so the content gets played by ppl that dont want to learn anything and just want to experience the instance.

    And we'd also probably need to either reinstate dungeons, or rework fractals so the lowest tiers would also be designed to cater to its own demographics, and designed with longevity in mind (and not for pushing progress to higher tiers).

    Prob, i personally really liked the infinately scaling fractals of pre hot, if we could bring those back that would maks the hardcore scene really happy, then you also look and normalise t1-t4 fractals and have that be the nm and cms be the hard content with an extra hard version in scaling ones. Youd need more cms tho for old fractals too then.

    Currently, fractal devs, when the deign to do the content at all, design it for the T4+CM crowd, with the lower tiers being an afterthought and not being considered as anything except transitional content. There's no active content for GW2 equivalent of FF XIV dungeon runners. Unless you count DRMs, but those are also not quite the same, and are also problematic in that they are built around specific collections. If you don't craft (wither for collections, or for sale), there's nothing DRMs can offer you.

    Drms and strikes are the perfect way to bridge ppl that normally dont do isntanced content and mostly do ow and story, they reuse story assets and are scalable to small/big groups and solo. Really hope the format gets refined after ibs and makes a comeback for eod and after

    I think the issue with instanced content in gw2 that ppl are intimidated by group content and not necessarily the dificulty. It would be healthier for the game if you made group content more integral to the game and then have dificult modes for those that want the challenge.

    And they will become obsolete for even those that still run them as soon as people will be done with those collections.

    Yeah fractals have nailed replayability incentives imo since they are a goldfarm through and through strikes also work somewhat well, drms need refinement in that regard and strikes need to go back to the first 4 boss fight style with better tuned didifculty.

  • zealex.9410zealex.9410 Member ✭✭✭✭
    Raids are fine the way they are, combining bosses of various difficulties

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @Vilin.8056 said:
    Second you ask developers to invest their resources towards making raids that don't attract the raiders, yet expect it to be a hit among a community that generally hate raid.

    Well, because that would be easy mode. It's the normal mode that doesn't attract the players as things stand now.

    That didn't work for strikes. Maybe it might work for easy mode raids IF legendary armor is made available to players that way. Which in turn again just would be reward related and not actual content related.

    If there is to be legendary armor via other PvE means, I personally would rather have it implemented some where else instead of bastardizing raids.

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @Vilin.8056 said:
    That's going the opposite interest of everybody.

    So, leaving raids as they are - abandoned, is in interest of everybody then?

    Third nobody's entitled for what share of resources, games aren't developed that way.

    Sure. But as things are, raiders get no share for themselves. And since raider community is not getting any bigger, that won't change. At the other hand, devs keep doing things for casuals, which suggests they still do consider it worth their effort.
    So, it's either zero resources, or getting those resources from the part of community that still has them. I guess you prefer the first option, though.

    From a current stand point and our knowledge as players, yes. Since we do not know what EoD will bring, let's wait and see shall we? If there is continued lack of challenging content and this is by design for EoD, it might very well be in the interested of the game to drop raids and challenging content all together.

    Again a completely separate system for legendary armor, since that seem most players only focus when asking for easy mode raids in this thread, in PvE might be better.

    Tbf strikes had a very noticable style shift with the steel one and the the drizzlewood event one. I think that also turned a number of ppl off them. They also lacked cm which didnt excite the vets.

    They also... just stopped doing them which raidfied them in return. Strikes should have never been viewed as a bridge to raids in the sense that they can teach ppl imo, that expectation was bad because ppl's problem with raids is that they dont interact with instanced group content till cap not that its necessarily too hard.

    They do however serve as a theoretically cheap way to make instanced group content thats tied to lw which in turn introduces ppl to instanced content.

  • Touchme.1097Touchme.1097 Member ✭✭✭
    We need both easy and hard modes

    My thoughts on some ideas on how to improve the quality of Raid mode in GW2
    1- Kill proof needs to go. Enough of being locked behind kill proof, sometime it means nothing, it's nor a reliable indicator of a player's skill neither an indicator that that player knows everything about mechanics.
    2- Raid Tiers should be implemented. Yes, remove the awful wings design and group raids in different tiers changing boss mechanics accordingly, it's annoying that new players can't complete easier raids because there is one boss that is definitely harder than the rest of the same wing, like Deimos.
    3- Each raid wing should have an easy, normal and hard modes, get rid of the challenge mode in the future raids, that is an old feature that would only make sense in fractals or dungeons for hardcore players who only play one mode and need challenges. It shouldn't be an issue for players to be introduced into raids as it is and pug it. That's why the easy mode is so important.
    4- Boss mechanics should be more graphical and visible to the human eye with a clear animation, some mechanics don't even have a clear animation and it makes the raiding experience unnecessary harder than it should be.
    5- A message, an alert should be visible everytime a raid boss uses a certain attack or mechanic in easy mode, this way the mode itself will serve as a training mode and a proper introduction to raiding.
    6- More resources invested into Raid game mode. Let's be clear, the mode has potential to become very popular and fun, an MMO that can't offer a decent raiding experience can't be taken as a successful product, more resources are worth investing in it.

  • SammyB.1590SammyB.1590 Member ✭✭
    Raids are fine the way they are, combining bosses of various difficulties

    I thought I wasn't a good enough player for raids. So I did some research, learnt a rotation, watched a video of the encounter, and read a guide. I then sought out a guild that offered raid training.

    Trying the raid the first time was overwhelming but fun. By the third try on the encounter, I felt totally comfortable with it. I now do full clears of all the wings once a week - for scope, I learnt how to raid in January. They feel so easy now, so I am a little surprised people want an 'easy' mode when to me the answer was just to research it - I feel really happy to have conquered the content and be able to keep getting better.

    To follow on - for the research I guess I do need to acknowledge I got everything about them outside the actual game, so things like explainations and (bigger) warnings might be useful. So I'm not sure we need an easy mode, but I think there would be some worth in a story or introduction mode where an NPC literally yells out and explains every mechanic (since the root of this problem is people just don't want to read or research themselves, they just want to experience it). Like you band up with some of the usual NPCs like Glenna who tells you on VG "Gee look out for those teleports on the ground, they'll throw you someplace else!" "You can't attack this without a way to strip it's boons".

    I would also be down for them to have a daily 'raid boss' where you fight just the one encounter which might incentivise people to learn/branch out.